S/o math thread on k-8 board (and let's all play nice please))

[Bee]

when are you, as a parent, supposed to worry that your child is behind where they should be academically? I feel like all these experts are telling me not to worry but I feel like they aren't the ones that have to take care of my children for the rest of their lives if they can't/ won't get an education sufficient to get them into college (they are girls with little aptitude or interest in any trade-type employment). Thoughts, experiences, reassurances, anything?

[Jane in NC]

I feel like all these experts are telling me not to worry...

 

Bee,

 

Just who are these experts may I ask?

 

As a former college math instructor who homeschooled through high school, I have strong opinions on mathematics education. That said, I am disturbed often by the way that some people dismiss the need for math. These people take great pride in their innumeracy and suggest that one need only learn how to deal with fractions to function in society.

 

Now I am not suggesting that everyone begin the rush to Calculus in the elementary years. But developing a demonstrated mastery of algebra, exposure to the concepts of proofs in geometry, having some work with transcendental functions (trig, logs, exponentials), etc. should be on most students' high school check off list. Not just those who are seeking four year degrees. I taught in a turf grass management certification program where students had to have a solid understanding of algebra and basic trig within their required math courses.

 

What some parents have yet to realize is that university requirements have changed over the past few decades. In my state, for example, four years of high school mathematics is required by all applicants to the UNC system. Some parents of my son's peers were caught off guard because the requirement was different for their older students. You need to keep abreast of what colleges want to see.

 

And parents should not peg their student as "non-mathy" at an early age. Some students who despise arithmetic will thrive at algebra or geometry.

 

Not everyone on this board pursues a classical education, but many of us do. Mathematics should be as important as Literature, History, Philosophy and Science--one of the cornerstones of civilization. Math is often hard to understand. It takes work for even those of us who are good in the subject.

 

My advice for parents is to roll up their sleeves and study math with their students. Do not leave students to master the subject on their own. Have fun with it. It is great stuff. Really.

[Shellydon]

Bee,

 

Just who are these experts may I ask?

 

As a former college math instructor who homeschooled through high school, I have strong opinions on mathematics education. That said, I am disturbed often by the way that some people dismiss the need for math. These people take great pride in their innumeracy and suggest that one need only learn how to deal with fractions to function in society.

 

Now I am not suggesting that everyone begin the rush to Calculus in the elementary years. But developing a demonstrated mastery of algebra, exposure to the concepts of proofs in geometry, having some work with transcendental functions (trig, logs, exponentials), etc. should be on most students' high school check off list. Not just those who are seeking four year degrees. I taught in a turf grass management certification program where students had to have a solid understanding of algebra and basic trig within their required math courses.

 

What some parents have yet to realize is that university requirements have changed over the past few decades. In my state, for example, four years of high school mathematics is required by all applicants to the UNC system. Some parents of my son's peers were caught off guard because the requirement was different for their older students. You need to keep abreast of what colleges want to see.

 

And parents should not peg their student as "non-mathy" at an early age. Some students who despise arithmetic will thrive at algebra or geometry.

 

Not everyone on this board pursues a classical education, but many of us do. Mathematics should be as important as Literature, History, Philosophy and Science--one of the cornerstones of civilization. Math is often hard to understand. It takes work for even those of us who are good in the subject.

 

My advice for parents is to roll up their sleeves and study math with their students. Do not leave students to master the subject on their own. Have fun with it. It is great stuff. Really.

 

This is great advice!

 

Jane in NC, would you mind sharing what math curriculum you find to be good?

[Plucky]

Well, I'm not an expert and I do think math is important. My first-born is a math whiz, my next 3, not so much. For me the goal is to try to keep moving forward. I had my 13dd in Alg. 1 in Sept. She ended up very upset and frustrated. I decided to start her back into Pre-Algebra. She needed more work on foundational skills and brain development.

 

If your dd is having problems backup, but try to keep consistent. The number one issue I try to prevent is math phobia or poor math self-esteem. I suffered from that in school and it wasn't until I was in college that I overcame it. So my answer would be go back and go over material, be consistent, find good materials. If you really have a need to be worried then I'd get her evaluated.

 

ETA: I did not read nor participate in the math thread on the other board. My opinion has nothing to do with that thread.

Edited April 21, 2011 by True Blue

[Jane in NC]

This is great advice!

 

Jane in NC, would you mind sharing what math curriculum you find to be good?

 

I am the Dolciani proselytizer ;). Admittedly, I did not search curricular materials far and wide because 1) I did not start homeschooling until 7th grade and 2) Dolciani is what led me to become a math major. Hence I am not in a position to recommend one thing or the other for elementary years.

 

My son attended a Montessori school where he did some cool things in math but I felt he had gaps. Hence Saxon worked for us initially. The spiraling approach caught his holes and allowed us to work on these. That said, I would have gone nuts had I used a spiraling approach for Algebra! Thus we only used Saxon 8/7 in 7th grade--then moved to Dolciani for Algebra.

 

I have heard great things about the Art of Problem Solving. And many swear by Singapore.

 

Sorry not to be more helpful.

 

Jane

[Plucky]

I am the Dolciani proselytizer ;). Admittedly, I did not search curricular materials far and wide because 1) I did not start homeschooling until 7th grade and 2) Dolciani is what led me to become a math major. Hence I am not in a position to recommend one thing or the other for elementary years.

 

My son attended a Montessori school where he did some cool things in math but I felt he had gaps. Hence Saxon worked for us initially. The spiraling approach caught his holes and allowed us to work on these. That said, I would have gone nuts had I used a spiraling approach for Algebra! Thus we only used Saxon 8/7 in 7th grade--then moved to Dolciani for Algebra.

 

I have heard great things about the Art of Problem Solving. And many swear by Singapore.

 

Sorry not to be more helpful.

 

Jane

 

My 14dd is using Dolciani for accelerated pre-algebra and really likes it (as much as is possible for her). :001_smile:

[Nestof3]

I think a better way to look at it is, are you consistent about teaching? Are you helping them with their problems? Are you looking for new ways to introduce something if your children aren't getting it?

 

I have also found that homeschooling works best if I am willing to really pull along side of them, check their work, go over their corrections, truly find out what the problem is. I think it's much more difficult if you don't know the moment at which your child started falling behind.

 

I tend to get frustrated if, for example, Ben doesn't get something right away or if he needs several days for it to cement. I remind myself that my responsibility is to be consistent, to be encouraging, to work with him until he understands. Sometimes, it has meant putting something on the back burner until he was ready (reading for example).

 

If I am giving it all I have, then that is all I can do. I have found just Googling for new ways to teach something has been helpful as well.

[Nestof3]

:iagree:

:iagree:

 

I really do see it as MY JOB to both teach the math AND make sure they are getting it.

 

No lesson is ever complete until all corrections are finished. I will also assign extra problems for those topics which require more practice.

 

Sometimes, I write notes to myself to find another resource or perhaps a review sheet to give the next morning.

 

I try to add a little humor with math and grammar when I can. I do this for myself as much as for my boys because I can get quite grumpy when I feel like their inability to understand something "slows us down." I have to remind myself that they NEED me to teach them.

 

Sometimes the boys need pictures to really understand something in math. For example, Ben keeps getting stuck on these 3/8 of the 200 students like math. How many students like math.

 

After several days of him not remembering (not really knowing) how to do these, I decided that I will give him the fraction bar to color in. I will slowly wean him off of this. Yes, I draw the picture every time he gets it wrong, but I think this prompting will slowly help him.

 

I also leave notes in their math lesson sometimes. For example, the word "estimate" confused Ben for a while, so I would write "remember -- estimate by rounding first." He also struggled with what "product" meant, so I would write, "remember, product means X."

 

After a while, I can drop these reminders.

 

Well -- off to do corrections with the boys. :lol:

[Jane in NC]

 

I really do see it as MY JOB to both teach the math AND make sure they are getting it.

 

 

 

Precisely. One of the issues that I have seen regularly through many years of participation on the WTM boards is that some parents toss a math book at their students and expect them to "get it". It is the rare student who can read, understand and retain mathematics without someone at their side.

 

Parents of young students can reinforce concepts through activities. Manipulatives help visual students see the problem. I can't solve most application problems (word problems) without a picture. It is the way my mind works.

 

Students who do not write out steps in the earlier years often struggle with writing out the steps of harder problems later on. Encourage good habits with your younger students. If they claim something is equal, it should be equal. That is good mathematical grammar. Students should learn proper use of symbols and things like parentheses. Again, start young so that writing clear mathematics becomes a habit.

 

Good job, Dawn!

[Crimson Wife]

I think it's more of an issue for jr. high and high school aged kids rather than elementary ones like the OP's. And I think it's perfectly fine to do Algebra I in 9th even if PS is now pushing it in 8th or even 7th. It is far more important IMHO to have a solid foundation in arithmetic than to take calculus in H.S.

[Farrar]

That original thread was in response to a piece of advice to relax that was very dismissive of kids having problems with math and being "behind." I think the tone was good in some ways because homeschool parents seem to get anxious about their kids being "behind" all the time (and not just with math) when the kids aren't doing the exact same thing as their ps peers (or their hs friends). But the idea that we shouldn't worry about math or try to assess if there's a real problem with a kid's understanding took that a little too far, I think.

 

To me, the real question for any subject is not so much what is a kid specifically doing and is it "on par" with some state standard or specific curricula, but whether a kid is making consistent progress, learning new things and moving forward. If a child is, then it really doesn't matter if they're "behind" because eventually they'll catch up, even if it means they go to college when they're 20 (as the original post said) instead of 18. If a child isn't, then that's when one should re-evaluate and look for learning issues or consider if the teaching or the curriculum isn't a good fit.

[unsinkable]

Bee,

 

Just who are these experts may I ask?

 

As a former college math instructor who homeschooled through high school, I have strong opinions on mathematics education. That said, I am disturbed often by the way that some people dismiss the need for math. These people take great pride in their innumeracy and suggest that one need only learn how to deal with fractions to function in society.

 

Now I am not suggesting that everyone begin the rush to Calculus in the elementary years. But developing a demonstrated mastery of algebra, exposure to the concepts of proofs in geometry, having some work with transcendental functions (trig, logs, exponentials), etc. should be on most students' high school check off list. Not just those who are seeking four year degrees. I taught in a turf grass management certification program where students had to have a solid understanding of algebra and basic trig within their required math courses.

What some parents have yet to realize is that university requirements have changed over the past few decades. In my state, for example, four years of high school mathematics is required by all applicants to the UNC system. Some parents of my son's peers were caught off guard because the requirement was different for their older students. You need to keep abreast of what colleges want to see.

 

And parents should not peg their student as "non-mathy" at an early age. Some students who despise arithmetic will thrive at algebra or geometry.

 

Not everyone on this board pursues a classical education, but many of us do. Mathematics should be as important as Literature, History, Philosophy and Science--one of the cornerstones of civilization. Math is often hard to understand. It takes work for even those of us who are good in the subject.

 

My advice for parents is to roll up their sleeves and study math with their students. Do not leave students to master the subject on their own. Have fun with it. It is great stuff. Really.

 

(Total derail: I thought my DS would like a career like that at a ballpark or golf course at one point)

[Night Elf]

when are you, as a parent, supposed to worry that your child is behind where they should be academically?

 

I haven't read the K8 math thread so I don't know what prompted your question. Personally, I would be much less worried about math skills in elementary grade levels because kids develop at different rates. But since my children are in high school, I am a bit more firm about making sure they are moving along in their math sequence. Sometimes we have to slow way down and take time to understand a concept. Actually, we've always approached math in that manner.

[Surfside Academy]

For me, I would begin to worry towards the end of the elementary grades. A strong foundation is arithmetic is vital before moving onto advanced mathematics and science.

[stripe]

Encourage good habits with your younger students. If they claim something is equal, it should be equal. That is good mathematical grammar.

I second this. As a teaching assistant in a college algebra class for older adults, this was the #1 piece of advice I gave while grading homework. It regularly leads to wrong answers. By the end of the semester, the students agreed with me that it makes a big difference.

[Gailmegan]

My two cents...

 

One of the wonderful benefits of homeschooling is that we know our children. We understand them and can cater to their learning styles. If something isn't working then we try something else. I believe that because we KNOW our children, we should naturally be able to sense if something is not right with how they are learning. Each child is different and has different needs. There are times when my son needs to be forced to sit down and struggle through something and there are times when he needs to go run around the block and eat something. Yes, I know these examples are just about a daily struggle, not an ongoing one, but the point is that we should trust our gut instincts about our kids. I don't ever recommend lessening the standards for the work, but adjusting time frames or curricula. Being consistent (like nestof3 said) and just working side-by-side and if there's something not clicking, I truly believe we will sense it and be able to get help.

 

And Jane in NC - since we have gone a little OT already, you and I are kindred spirits. I fell in love with math in MS/HS and I too used the Dolciani texts; and I went on to be a math major (well for 3 years, but that's another story). Now I'm starting my son in her pre-algebra text (that I used) next fall. It's great to see other Dolciani fans here!

[kiana]

Students who do not write out steps in the earlier years often struggle with writing out the steps of harder problems later on. Encourage good habits with your younger students. If they claim something is equal, it should be equal. That is good mathematical grammar. Students should learn proper use of symbols and things like parentheses. Again, start young so that writing clear mathematics becomes a habit.

 

:iagree:

 

And more specifically, *please* don't let them use = to mean 'and the next step is'. I see issues such as '3x=6=2', when what the student *meant* was '3x=6, so x = 2'. This seems really trivial and nitpicky, but it's rather foundational to the concept of equality -- that whenever two things are on opposite sides of an equals sign, they ARE equal.

[Murphy101]

For me, I would begin to worry towards the end of the elementary grades. A strong foundation is arithmetic is vital before moving onto advanced mathematics and science.

 

I deeply regret doing that with my oldest. If I could go back, instead of switching programs and trusting he would eventually level out,I would have say him down in fourth grade and flat-out focused on bring him up to level then. Waiting it out in the hopes that it would click was a huge mistake and has created YEARS of math frustration. I didn't really start to worry until 6th grade. I so wish I hadn't listened to all the soothing voices that told me not to stress and worry. All it did was prolong the problems. And it sure didn't save me future stress and worry.

 

I don't advocate worry.

 

I advocate "so what are you going to do about it?"

 

If a child is behind, whatever that might mean, then to ME at that point the only question is what needs to be done. It MIGHT be to give them some time to develop, especially below 4th grade, but I wouldn't assume that is the case.

[GoVanGogh]

when are you, as a parent, supposed to worry that your child is behind where they should be academically? I feel like all these experts are telling me not to worry but I feel like they aren't the ones that have to take care of my children for the rest of their lives if they can't/ won't get an education sufficient to get them into college (they are girls with little aptitude or interest in any trade-type employment). Thoughts, experiences, reassurances, anything?

I read the original math post and was going to post a reply there, but I think it might be more appropriate here.

 

Not math related, but with reading.

 

Our son was an early, self-taught reader but he never progressed. He could read the words individually but could not read a sentence.

I spent two years banging my head against a wall and asking every reading specialist I could get ahold of. Every single person told me I was pushing too hard, he was still so young, don't worry, blah, blah.

Meanwhile, we were watching him for an eye issue, but the specialist didn't think DS's reading issues could be connected to his eye problems, as his actual vision was perfect.

DS had eye surgery when he was 6.5 years old. Within 24 hours of the surgery, he was reading an encyclopedia.

We were actually in to the surgeon's office last week for an annual folllow-up and the doctor and I talked about this very thing - As a parent, when to worry?

I had told everyone that I 'felt' something was amiss but couldn't find anyone that would listen to me. Even this doctor, whom I love and completely respect, didn't think that DS's eye problems were 'bad enough' to cause DS reading problems. But, as he said last week, the brain is an amazing complex machine and we have not yet to understand it 100%.

I personally think "Mommy instinct" is worth more than anything else. If you think something is wrong or suspect they are academically behind, listen to your own gut feeling not that of an expert.

[Surfside Academy]

I deeply regret doing that with my oldest. If I could go back, instead of switching programs and trusting he would eventually level out,I would have say him down in fourth grade and flat-out focused on bring him up to level then. Waiting it out in the hopes that it would click was a huge mistake and has created YEARS of math frustration. I didn't really start to worry until 6th grade. I so wish I hadn't listened to all the soothing voices that told me not to stress and worry. All it did was prolong the problems. And it sure didn't save me future stress and worry.

 

I don't advocate worry.

 

I advocate "so what are you going to do about it?"

 

If a child is behind, whatever that might mean, then to ME at that point the only question is what needs to be done. It MIGHT be to give them some time to develop, especially below 4th grade, but I wouldn't assume that is the case.

 

Martha,

 

I think I didn't express myself well. I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't worry until in 5th or 6th grade. I was trying to refer back to the original article that started the discussion which mentioned 18 year-olds counting with their fingers. The point I was trying to make was that kids who are finishing the elementary grades really need that strong mathematical foundation to succeed in later grades. I guess I was just trying to say (but not very well) is that as a parent, I want to make sure any problems are addressed long before the elementary years end, not when they're 18.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Surfside Academy

[Murphy101]

Martha,

 

I think I didn't express myself well. I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't worry until in 5th or 6th grade. I was trying to refer back to the original article that started the discussion which mentioned 18 year-olds counting with their fingers. The point I was trying to make was that kids who are finishing the elementary grades really need that strong mathematical foundation to succeed in later grades. I guess I was just trying to say (but not very well) is that as a parent, I want to make sure any problems are addressed long before the elementary years end, not when they're 18.

 

Right. On that we agree. My only quibble was that I wouldn't wait until late elementary to start worrying. For ME with my oldest, that was too late. We were starting to see domino effects that we are still coping with in 10th grade.

 

To me, I start to worry if they aren't where I feel they should be at age 8/9 or end of 3rd grade.

 

I'm not saying I am right or an authority.

 

I'm saying that is MY limit of comfort for my kids.:)

[*Lulu*]

Right. On that we agree. My only quibble was that I wouldn't wait until late elementary to start worrying. For ME with my oldest, that was too late. We were starting to see domino effects that we are still coping with in 10th grade.

 

To me, I start to worry if they aren't where I feel they should be at age 8/9 or end of 3rd grade.

I'm not saying I am right or an authority.

 

I'm saying that is MY limit of comfort for my kids.:)

 

(Bolded mine)

 

I worked for several years prior to DS#1's birth with Sylvan, and oversaw the math programs for my center.

 

IMHO, there are a few critical windows within mathematics. If a student does not have mastery of basic facts and operations prior to 5th grade fractions, they will struggle to master fractions. If a student does not have mastery of fraction skills prior to beginning algebra skills they will struggle with most algebraic concepts.

 

That being said- children mature and develop at different rates. I would not be panicking about a 3rd grader still working on addition and subtraction tables/concepts as long as they were steadily progressing and mastering material. I would, however, be seriously concerned about a 5th grader in the same position with any of the basic fact tables. The trick is to get, and stay, ahead of the situation.

[Bee]

My older dd has always been hsed. She has spent a year and a half on the equivalent of Algebra 1 and she gets the basics of it but as the year is ending, she tells me she really doesn't feel she knows what she is doing. She is 3/4 of the way through her text and will probably not complete it. She gets frustrated when I try to sit down and explain it to her. I plan to have her do Geometry next year and I will do it along with her although I have to say I am not looking forward to it;I dislike the whole thought of it since it's part of mathematics that I don't feel at all comfortable with. I will not count it for credit unless she finishes the texts. She has never scored well on the math portions of her standardized testing although that may have been because we took a mastery approach rather than spiral (because spiral didn't work for her) and the years she tested she scored well on the questions that did cover what she had studied that year. This child will never do Algebra 2 or calculus unless she does it in college. I suspect she may have to take a remedial math class when she gets to college. I'm not sure how to make higher level math easier for her. The only thing I feel like I can do now is to make sure she has basic math down cold and takes a good consumer math course. I really can't help but think that I should have done a better job.

 

Younger dd is in ps now and has been for a year and a half. She struggled with math at home. I tried 3 different math programs before she went to school including Rod and Staff for second grade which mostly just covered addition and subtraction and when she went to school she was still having trouble with that. She consistantly scores 1's and 2's out of a 1-4 grading system. She works with her teacher in school, has a math tutor, and works at home with me. She's slowly getting the basics but they move so quickly through the curriculum so that they can get it done by the end of the year. I've talked to her teacher, her tutor,and a retired teacher who still subs, all tell me not to worry that she may eventually get it. Although her teacher was honest and said some kids never really do get math but that her abilities might lie elsewhere (perhaps a kind way of telling me that my child may not be scholastically inclined?). Now dd wants to come back home, in part because of the math struggles. I always said I'd never use Saxon math but I've bought the books and started to work with her a little. She may be hsed next year, we haven't made a final decision yet but are leaning in that direction. At this point I sort of feel like I have to because we are all so frustrated by what's happening.

[ktgrok]

when are you, as a parent, supposed to worry that your child is behind where they should be academically? I feel like all these experts are telling me not to worry but I feel like they aren't the ones that have to take care of my children for the rest of their lives if they can't/ won't get an education sufficient to get them into college (they are girls with little aptitude or interest in any trade-type employment). Thoughts, experiences, reassurances, anything?

 

I think you worry if they are not making progress. If they are moving forward, but behind, I wouldn't worry. For instance, when i pulled my son out of ps this year we had to back up a lot to where he was. So he is in FLL3 and WWE2 in the 5th grade. And only half way through 5th grade math mammoth. But we are moving forward at a good pace, and he is really learning, so I don't worry. much :)

[Dolphin]

I worried as soon as I saw a problem. This was my first hurdle with HS. DS had been in a small private school k-2, when we started math this year I realized how behind he was. I think some was switching programs, but he was just really weak on basic addition and subtraction skills.

 

I went back to the beginning of SM to make sure that he at least got all the theories they were doing and had the background. I also enrolled him in Kumon. I had so many problems in math myself, that I want to make sure my son is really solid in it I am not going to push him forward until he is really solid in the basics, but we are putting a huge amount of our time int Math right now until he is very strong and at grade level.

[homeschooltoone]

And parents should not peg their student as "non-mathy" at an early age. Some students who despise arithmetic will thrive at algebra or geometry.

 

Not everyone on this board pursues a classical education, but many of us do. Mathematics should be as important as Literature, History, Philosophy and Science--one of the cornerstones of civilization. Math is often hard to understand. It takes work for even those of us who are good in the subject.

 

My advice for parents is to roll up their sleeves and study math with their students. Do not leave students to master the subject on their own. Have fun with it. It is great stuff. Really.

:iagree:

[Daisy]

I usually find the opposite. All these "professionals" are constantly telling kids they are behind.

 

Without a doubt I agree that math is a very important subject. I think though there is as much error in pegging a young child behind in math as there is in saying they are non-mathy. I'm surrounded by parents freaking out all the time about math. My husband teaches ps first grade and has parents who just need to relax. These standards are ridiculous. My husband has to teach 6yos to round. They don't get it, but it's a first grade standard anyway. I taught my kids rounding in 3rd/4th grade. They both said, "Yeah, is this supposed to be hard?" LOL. They were ready to understand it by that point.

 

According to my math teacher friend and the state of CA, my daughter should be taking pre-algebra in the fall. She isn't ready. Period. My math teacher friend (professional) tells me my kid will be behind, but doesn't have much to say when I remind her of how many of her 8th grade students fail algebra. More than 1/3rd score at below basic or far below basic. I could push my daughter and pass her with a basic © score but I'm not willing to do that. I'd rather wait a year and have her score proficient or advanced. I can push her through or I can have her actually learn the material. Isn't that what homeschooling is all about?

 

My best friend is freaking out because her public school son has gotten D's all year in 5th grade math. The math lessons just keep snow-balling. There are 45 kids in his class and he can't keep up. Maybe he just needs another year to mature. He is a young 5th grader. Instead he and his parents have been told by professionals that their son is behind. This is a kid who up until this year wanted to become an engineer.

 

There is a sweet spot in the middle. A child that is challenged and progressing without being frustrated. A child who is encouraged to train hard without being belittled if he runs his race a little slower. And where children who genuinely need additional help...get it.

Edited to add that I think we mostly all agree. I just tend to come at it from the viewpoint of someone who sees a lot of ps kids downtrodden and pigeon-holed over the math issue.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Daisy

[amy g.]

Well, my 15 year old 9th grader is working on his third year of Algebra I. I got a private tutor for him, I let him switch programs, but I see no reason to move on until He understands the material.

 

He just went through a major growth spurt, and his brain must have grown too, because overnight it isn't difficult for him any more. I'm glad I didn't rush him.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My best friend is freaking out because her public school son has gotten D's all year in 5th grade math. The math lessons just keep snow-balling. There are 45 kids in his class and he can't keep up. Maybe he just needs another year to mature. He is a young 5th grader. Instead he and his parents have been told by professionals that their son is behind. This is a kid who up until this year wanted to become an engineer.

 

There is a sweet spot in the middle. A child that is challenged and progressing without being frustrated. A child who is encouraged to train hard without being belittled if he runs his race a little slower. And where children who genuinely need additional help...get it.

 

 

This is a topic dh and I have often discussed over the years. I am careful how I speak to my kids about skills they haven't mastered, because I don't want to label them as "bad at math". This is something that happened with dh. He is very smart (skipping grades in school), but also at some point was convinced that he wasn't good at math.

 

He wasn't thriving in the self directed test and drill program his middle school used. But I think that this label was slapped on him far too hastily.

 

I'm not for ignoring problems and hoping they go away. I also think we sometimes think a new program will solve everything, when closer instruction and patience might be a solution. And I also think that we can act like there is this very brief window of learning and at the end of it, the die is cast. Eighteen or twenty-two is not the end of one's learning. Or it ought not be.

 

Don't waste the moments that you have. They are over too quickly. But don't despair that at ten a child has been ruined from pursuing engineering.

 

(For the 5th grader mentioned above, would a summer working with some of the Key to Math modules or reading Danica McKellar or Ed Zaccaro be helpful? It might put him back on an even keel for the upcoming year.)

[EKS]

One of the issues that I have seen regularly through many years of participation on the WTM boards is that some parents toss a math book at their students and expect them to "get it". It is the rare student who can read, understand and retain mathematics without someone at their side.

 

 

 

I totally agree with this.

 

Another thing that I see over and over (both here and IRL) is a parent lamenting her child's inability to do math and in the next breath saying that she never really understood math either. The parent is usually wanting to know which curriculum to switch to because the current one isn't working. News flash: The curriculum isn't the problem.

[Murphy101]

I totally agree with this.

 

Another thing that I see over and over (both here and IRL) is a parent lamenting her child's inability to do math and in the next breath saying that she never really understood math either. The parent is usually wanting to know which curriculum to switch to because the current one isn't working. News flash: The curriculum isn't the problem.

 

Ouch. I don't agree there. I have always struggled with math. But most of my kids don't. For the one that does, having the right program WAS the problem. We need one that offers me a solution manual. We need one that has very clear explanations. We need one that stays on one topic at a time for a while vs a spiral method. The biggest mistake I ever made was using Saxon. It WAS the curriculum.

 

If I know math is my teaching weakness, then obviously I need a math curriculum that helps to compensate for that problem.

 

That said, I have never told my kids they are not mathy. I don't believe there is such a thing. Math is math. It isn't a question of talent. It's a question of effort and time learning and doing. Some kids need more of that than others but that doesn't mean they are not mathy. For that matter, it doesn't mean the other kids are mathy either.

[Nestof3]

I think the point she is making is, surely if we expect our fifth graders to learn and understand their material, then we are capable of learning it. I do think kids get to a point where they don't need mom to teach them (our son used a DIVE CD for Algebra II/Trig and aced Saxon), but in the early years, there really is no excuse for an adult not be able to follow along and understand the math with his or her child.

 

I could have taught Algebra II/Trig. I could have brushed up on the things I had forgotten, but Aaron had such a strong base in math, and he was doing great. The one thing he had difficulty with (completing the square), I too got stuck on, so I called a friend of mine who is a calculus teacher.

 

I also watched Algebra DVDs while on my treadmill to relearn polynomial rules.

 

There's nothing wrong with needing a teacher's manual to teach, but if you, as the teacher, haven't learned the material along the way, there is a good chance your child hasn't either.

Ouch. I don't agree there. I have always struggled with math. But most of my kids don't. For the one that does, having the right program WAS the problem. We need one that offers me a solution manual. We need one that has very clear explanations. We need one that stays on one topic at a time for a while vs a spiral method. The biggest mistake I ever made was using Saxon. It WAS the curriculum.

 

If I know math is my teaching weakness, then obviously I need a math curriculum that helps to compensate for that problem.

 

That said, I have never told my kids they are not mathy. I don't believe there is such a thing. Math is math. It isn't a question of talent. It's a question of effort and time learning and doing. Some kids need more of that than others but that doesn't mean they are not mathy. For that matter, it doesn't mean the other kids are mathy either.

[Veritaserum]

There is a philosophy of education prevalent in my area that discourages direct instruction. The parent is told to model the desired behavior as a way of inspiring the child to also adopt that behavior. For example, the parent should sit down and do math. If the child shows interest, the parent should teach the child. If the child does not show interest, the parent should not worry because at age 12 the child will become a scholar (um, by magic?). This scholar will study 6-8 hours a day and will "catch up" on all the things he didn't learn earlier. There still isn't direct instruction and any requirements are set by the student himself. The parent helps find appropriate books and encourages the student to meet his goals.

 

So, I've seen families where there is a big emphasis on "don't worry, he'll get it when he's older" and "get off the conveyor belt" (i.e. don't worry at all about state standards because that's the type of education that produces mindless drones). These families tend to have students who like to read, but a solid understanding of skills-based subjects (math, grammar, expository writing) is often missing.

 

My point is that you can get too extreme with "don't worry." If something is difficult, we plug away at it for a bit. I don't worry and the child usually gets it after awhile. If something is difficult and it continues to be difficult despite continued exposure and practice, I do worry. This worry leads me to try a different approach (or several) and to keep the problematic skill on my radar until it resolves. Sometimes the best approach is to take a break and then come back to it. Sometimes the solution is a different program or a different presentation of the material.

 

Where worry gets problematic is if it leads to inaction on the part of the parent or if the parent's worry is so overt that it causes shame or fear in the child.