Michelle Duggar is expecting # 18

[Joanne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolaMichella

I thought they followed ATI/Bill Gothard stuff. Does Gothard align with the Pearls?

 

 

Yes, he does. I know 3 FQ families and they all have used various ATI materials, and have all at one time advocated the Pearl's books/methods.

 

Yes. I don't agree with Gothard (or Pearl) in terms of doctrine, theology, lifestyle or parenting. I am not against a deliberate and intentional large family, but I *am* in deep disagreement with the above referenced authors and leaders in developing a family style.

[Marie in Oh]

QUOTE=momof7;224230]I have avoided this thread like the plague until I read Pam's funny title to Jean.

 

I just thought I would insert another theological POV......bet you could never guess which one!!

 

If you respect that marriage is a holy union between a man and a woman.....sanctioned by God or from my perspective a sacramental union joined by God's grace........the marital union is not simply an earthly relationship between man and woman, but really is a holy and blessed union that is centered around God.

 

(Of course if you don't believe that.....than nothing else I say will matter......use your time for better things!!!! :) )

 

As couples, fertility is a gift that allows us to become co-creators with the Creator. That is truly a statement of pure awe.

 

However, we are also created in the Divine Image and gifted with the virtues prudence and temperance. Prudence is the virtue which enables us to think carefully before acting, to make wise choices, and to do things well and temperance is the virtue by which we exercise self-control with regard to the drives of human nature.

 

God has gifted us with prudence and temperance as well as fertility. As a couple, we are called to prayerfully reflect upon our roles as spouse/parent/provider and to pray for guidance in prudently exercising (or not) the fertility with which we have be given. Serious issues.....whether health, financial, physical, emotional......do not need to simply be ignored like we are not gifted with reason. He created us with reason. He expects us to use it to pray, reflect, and exercise gifted wisdom.

 

There is no "right" definition of what determines serious reasons to limit family size. We as individual couples are bound to prayerfully make that decision. What is undue stress for one might not be for someone else. That is why it is supposed to be a continual prayerful decision. (BTW....continual is a key word b/c normal circumstances are fluid and life changes constantly, therefore our decisions need to be re-evaluated and prayerfully considered as they change month by month)

 

For some......there exists no need to ever NOT consider conceiving. For others, serious reasons exist that the prayerful response is to not conceive. If the decisions are based upon prayer and the grace from the marital union, both are equal. That somehow having unlimited children is "holier" is a perversion of thought. Children are an incredible gift, no doubt. But some people are given unseen (by outsiders) burdens and those burdens are a reality. Not having children in those circumstances is a prayerful decision.

 

I agree with this so whole heartedly-- and I am not even of the same theological perspective as Momof7. Now, I will say that sometimes one can be prudent and even temperent and still have a child (read timing off), but this is how we feel exactly.

 

I too have not commented much on this thread-- I in fact deleted a post as I just didn't think it would be understood. We are not QF, though many think we are. We will stop having children if my health warrents it. My problem with all of this is that this is the one area of personal, private choice that many (most) people think it is ok to comment. My children hear negative comments EVERY time we go out. They hate it. Why people think they have some say in our reproduction I have no idea. My dh makes plenty of money, we get no gov aid, they are well provided for, and have the same or more opportunities than many of their peers. It is really not anyone else's business. Now the Duggars, I guess make their business everyone elses' by brooadcasting their life on live TV. That's their business. But when people feel the need to make comments on the number of kids we have on a daily baisis that I don't even know, well, it just makes me mad.

 

I will stop now.

[Marie in Oh]

Finally have to add my 2 cents here...

 

I grew up in a QF family (I am 33 now), and am the oldest of 10. We also had a number of large families as friends.

 

I love being part of a large family and do not think poorly of my parents' QF convictions or the way they raised me. I think they are pretty much the most amazing parents ever really. As the oldest, I had plenty of responsibilities but it was not out of control. In fact, my parents were quite sensitive to me NOT taking on more mothering than I should. They were the parents, no question about it. I did babysit, but it was not frequent. I did help with housework, but was by no means a slave to the house. I had a very full childhood-for example during my teen years I volunteered at the local convalescent hospital, gave school tours at the hospital, worked a part time job, volunteered at church, was on the youth group leadership team, traveled a bit... I was not bound to the house, but I was very involved.

 

I do know other eldest who did not have the same experience. They did take on more parenting roles and it was not good for the older or the younger. They had many house responsibilities, sometimes functioning more like a nanny than anything else. I don't know anyone who had to do that forever though. :) They all moved on to other things in life.

 

Most of the older children in our family (maybe all over 20) also could be considered QF. No one has more that 3 kids though yet. My parents do have 6 grandkids born within the last 2 years. :)

 

The bottom line in this is the heart attitude and dedication of the parents. It can be just a bit tough to know the heart attitude of other families, but please know that a family can be large and function quite well. My mother is a dedicated mother! She made it work.

 

I had a favorite quote from a book in years past-"8 kids and not an idiot in the bunch!" My sibs and I tend to think that we all turned out ok in spite of being in a large family, having fewer possessions, sharing more time and toys, wearing hand-me-downs...

 

(But I do know there are families who did not parent well-and some of them have 1-2 kids and others have 5 or more. Detached parenting isn't limited to parents of large families.)

 

I can only help our children feel this way when they are grown. I hope our kids see hearts that are dedicated to God and to them. We mess up daily, but we seek forgiveness and move on. Thanks so much for your encouraging post.

[Joanne]

when people feel the need to make comments on the number of kids we have on a daily baisis that I don't even know, well, it just makes me mad.

 

I understand, and I agree. I "only" have 3 kids but they are closely spaced. There were several years where if I went out, I got comments daily.

[unsinkable]

I really was trying to avoid posting in this thread because The Duggar's story brings a strong emotional response from me. I don't hate them nor am I angry with them. But then again, yes, I am. In a whole different way. I had a miscarriage 18 yrs ago. We ttc for another 12 years. A couple of those years included medical intervention.

 

So as I read the discussions about quiverfull stuff, I am insanely jealous and defensive of them. But only because of my past.

 

I'm also disturbed about the breastfeeding debate. Both of my girls were adopted and therefore not breastfed. (The older one MIGHT have been for the first couple of months, but definitely NOT after 6 mos of age). They are healthy, alert and, if I say so myself, quite bright. Obviously, they would be geniuses if they HAD been breastfed. :lol:

 

And now, at the present time....I sooo want a 3rd baby, but DH says no. So, our quiver is full. And to the Duggar Family I say...

 

 

More Power To You!

:party:

 

 

 

 

(cin),

 

I can only imagine how hard it is for you. I'm sure no one intends to be hurtful.

[Kelli in TN]

This is my last comment in this thread, I promise.

 

I just need to clarify something.

 

I have known intentionally large families that were healthy, happpy and full of kids who were free to pursue their own interests. I have watched a large family deal effectively with a child who rebelled against everything they held dear, and still love him and nurture him. And now he is his dad's business partner, so that says something.

 

There are intentionally large families on here who, if they are presenting themselves honestly in these forums, are humble, gracious, dedicated. They seem to be raising children that are individuals and free to pursue their own dreams.

 

I think the difference for me with the Duggars is that they put themselves on television. I would never in million years want to talk about Quiver or the family I know in real life the way I am willing to about the Duggars. But the Duggars are there, on tv. Like American Idol contestants. We talk about AI contestants hair and clothes or the strange things they sometimes day and do. We talk about Kate of Jon and Kate Plus 8 and the way she talks to her husband and shrieks at her kids. If you put yourself on TV, you get talked about.

 

But I just don't want our families on here to think I am dissin' them for their lifestyle. I actually admire them greatly.

[Elisabeth in IL]

This is my last comment in this thread, I promise.

 

I just need to clarify something.

 

I have known intentionally large families that were healthy, happpy and full of kids who were free to pursue their own interests. I have watched a large family deal effectively with a child who rebelled against everything they held dear, and still love him and nurture him. And now he is his dad's business partner, so that says something.

 

There are intentionally large families on here who, if they are presenting themselves honestly in these forums, are humble, gracious, dedicated. They seem to be raising children that are individuals and free to pursue their own dreams.

 

I think the difference for me with the Duggars is that they put themselves on television. I would never in million years want to talk about Quiver or the family I know in real life the way I am willing to about the Duggars. But the Duggars are there, on tv. Like American Idol contestants. We talk about AI contestants hair and clothes or the strange things they sometimes day and do. We talk about Kate of Jon and Kate Plus 8 and the way she talks to her husband and shrieks at her kids. If you put yourself on TV, you get talked about.

 

But I just don't want our families on here to think I am dissin' them for their lifestyle. I actually admire them greatly.

 

Well said!!!! I agree!

[Cindy in C-ville]

QUOTE=momof7;224230]

 

My problem with all of this is that this is the one area of personal, private choice that many (most) people think it is ok to comment. My children hear negative comments EVERY time we go out. They hate it. Why people think they have some say in our reproduction I have no idea. My dh makes plenty of money, we get no gov aid, they are well provided for, and have the same or more opportunities than many of their peers. It is really not anyone else's business. .

 

Hi Marie,

 

I'm sorry you're getting so many negative comments. We have six kids between the ages of 15 and 8 - six kids within seven years! The most common comment is, "Are they all yours?" "YES! We have a lot of fun." I enthusiastically reply with a smile on my face. And this is true! There was one time when I was pregnant with #6 on the way, toddlers in a double stroller and a baby on my back and one woman asked me, "Honey, don't you know how this happens." I smiled and said, "Hand holding?"

 

Now, we're not QF, we just have a large family and we're hoping to adopt a 7 year old from Ukraine.

 

:) Cindy

[Nestof3]

Hello? I have the feeling many people have me on ignore because no one every responds to my posts here. :confused: Can anyone see me? ;)

 

-- just feeling invisible --

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Hello? I have the feeling many people have me on ignore because no one every responds to my posts here. :confused: Can anyone see me? ;)

 

-- just feeling invisible --

 

I read you, but I have nothing to say in response. No offense or anything, I just don't feel strongly enough to reply, nor do I think my comments would be edifying in general (for the thread, I mean). Pmegan did answer you, though. Oh, and Cin as well.

[Mom2GirlsTX]

Hello? I have the feeling many people have me on ignore because no one every responds to my posts here. :confused: Can anyone see me? ;)

 

-- just feeling invisible --

 

I see you! :001_smile:

 

Yesterday I was in the store and in walked a family of seven beautiful children, all under 12. I commented to the checker how well behaved and how inspiring it was to see such well taken of, happy, behaved kids. She said that they have another mom who brings in her 12 kids and all of them always are behaved. The older woman behind me overheard and said her neighbors across the street now have 16 children, and all are doing well.

I hope my noticing the seven kids wasn't rude, I was actually very impressed, especially considering I was shopping ALONE as I hate to just take my two to the store because they argue with each other to much.

 

I think that whether it is one kid or 16, it all depends on the parents if it is going to work successfully or not.

[Nestof3]

I guess I was hoping someone could take a stab at answering my questions.

[Guest Shanna]

I guess I was hoping someone could take a stab at answering my questions.

 

I did not have anytime last night and we are about to leave for the hospital for my husband to have surgery. I will have his laptop and I plan on responding to posts once I have a chance. I dont know what your questions have been as I haven't read since the other day. If I can answer them I will. I am sorry you feel ignored.

[8filltheheart]

I guess I was hoping someone could take a stab at answering my questions.

 

Is this what you are referring to?

 

Yes, I would be willing to say that children are a burden in all of these respects. It does take finances, physical ability and emotional stability to care for each child. I also think each of these can be depleted to the point where it would not be wise to add another child because there isn't enought left.

 

For finances, I see people saying "I trust God" but most of the time what they are trusting in is the finances of others.

 

For physical strength, I have seen women run down and ragged, barely able to keep up with things. And the same goes for emotional strength.

 

Another thing that makes no sense to me about people who claim to believe in the sovereignty of God is that they never take it all the way. For instance, I met a woman who believes each miscarriage is a sovereign act of God and each birth is a sovereign act of God, yet she insists on having each birth at a hospital. So, whether the baby lives or dies is completely God's will, so why is the doctor needed?

 

I have never met a person who is willing to carry this theology all the way.

 

I responded to this issue near the very end of the thread.

[Cindy in C-ville]

Yes, I would be willing to say that children are a burden in all of these respects. It does take finances, physical ability and emotional stability to care for each child. I also think each of these can be depleted to the point where it would not be wise to add another child because there isn't enought left.

 

For finances, I see people saying "I trust God" but most of the time what they are trusting in is the finances of others.

 

For physical strength, I have seen women run down and ragged, barely able to keep up with things. And the same goes for emotional strength.

 

Another thing that makes no sense to me about people who claim to believe in the sovereignty of God is that they never take it all the way. For instance, I met a woman who believes each miscarriage is a sovereign act of God and each birth is a sovereign act of God, yet she insists on having each birth at a hospital. So, whether the baby lives or dies is completely God's will, so why is the doctor needed?

 

I have never met a person who is willing to carry this theology all the way.

 

Hi Dawn,

 

Sorry you're feeling ignored. I often post and don't get any responses, so I understand. I wouldn't take it personally; this thread is huge and it took me a while of sifting back through your posts to figure out which one needed a response. I guess this is the one, so I'll take a stab at it.

 

What you're saying about a burden is true. I wouldn't choose that word, but there is definitely a "cost" to having kids, whether you have one child or 23. I can't determine for someone else whether the cost is something they can bear. In my opinion, that's up to the individual/couple. They have to wrestle through it themselves.

 

Regarding finances, I understand. We have received plenty of support from others. With my dh being a pastor, you could rightly say that ALL our income is from the support of people. While I am so thankful for the generosity of people to support us financially, I do see their generosity as being motivated by a movement of God and therefore from the hand of God. He "owns the cattle on a thousand hills" and if He chooses to disperse His resources through the generosity of people's hearts, that's up to Him. The way I view it is that we are blessed by their giving and they are blessed by the act of giving.

 

Sure, I understand being run down, particularly when the babies are little. Nothing is as physically as hard as having babies, toddlers, and preschoolers under the same roof. I feel extremely blessed to have a husband who deeply appreciates what I do and is committed to helping out to the degree that he is able. I, personally, have also been graced with a high level of energy and an ability to function in chaos. Our life gets crazy at times, but it's okay. There have been several times when I've been at the end of my rope, but it always had to do with too many commitments outside the home, not the weight of the kids. I've just now come through an incredibly busy season and I'm tired. But dh and I get on a plane tomorrow and go to our denomination's annual conference. Dh has already given me the freedom to sit in the sauna, go for a run, read, pray, etc. while he goes to the meetings. I need recharge time and I have a husband who is committed to making it happen.

 

Regarding the woman in the hospital, I would agree. I've had two miscarriages and all my babies have been born in hospitals. I consider myself to be reformed in my theology (TULIP) and yet it seems that you are crossing from trusting in the sovreignty of God to fatalism. If you take this logic all the way out, why would you buckle up your children in car seats? Why would you insist they wear a bike helmet? Why would you even choose to feed them healthy food? If they're going to die anyway, what does it matter? And if God's going to do what God's going to do, why even pray? For me, this logic seems to be overreaching Calvinism and venturing into waters in which he never thought we would swim. Now, although I am reformed and the sovreignty of God has become a sweet doctrine to me, as Jonathan Edwards said, I see election/predestination/etc. existing side by side with man's right to choose. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but Pharaoh also hardened his own heart. I can accept that my finite mind cannot get around these concepts and so I trust, by faith, that they coexist. I rest in the Lordship of Christ and I choose to place myself beneath His countenance annd walk in a way that brings glory to His Name. Does this make sense?

 

I am sorry you've felt ignored. I imagine there will be a flurry of activity from the hive. One of the reasons I didn't post was b/c I knew it would take time and I don't have that much of it. However, I have enjoyed thinking through your questions and hope the dialogue continues.

 

:) Cindy

[Quiver0f10]

Hi Marie,

 

I'm sorry you're getting so many negative comments. We have six kids between the ages of 15 and 8 - six kids within seven years! The most common comment is, "Are they all yours?" "YES! We have a lot of fun." I enthusiastically reply with a smile on my face. And this is true! There was one time when I was pregnant with #6 on the way, toddlers in a double stroller and a baby on my back and one woman asked me, "Honey, don't you know how this happens." I smiled and said, "Hand holding?"

 

Now, we're not QF, we just have a large family and we're hoping to adopt a 7 year old from Ukraine.

 

:) Cindy

 

The worst I have experienced was once in a Pizza Hut. We had 4 or 5 kids at the time? and I was pregnant. DH was in the booth with some of the kids and I was in the bathroom with one of the other kids. An older lady had come to our bench and was telling DH how nice our kids were blah blah. Then, I come and and join him, huge pregnant belly and all, and with another child. Her head about spun backwards LOL. She started yelling at me and asking me why I wasn't on the pill? How come I had so many kids? I just stammered something about allowing God to decide our family size. She gets real close and yells in my face" When is the last time you talked to God". Finally, mercifully, her DD or sister or who ever, pulls her away and they left. Of course after she left I thought of about a zillion come backs. Such as, me and my Dh don't use BC and we like to _______. I'd have loved to see her face at that one :D

 

Then there was the time in McDonalds with my sister and we were getting the "looks". So I said to my sis realy loud how I wish McD's took food stamps! And how I am so thankful ALL the kid's dads paid their child support that month. My sister vowed to never go in public with me again LOL. ( no offense meant to those who use gov aid or get child support)

 

But you know, I cant tell you how many times I have ran into older ladies who tell me how blessed I am. They tell me that I have a beautiful family and a few tell me that they wish they had had more. That happens more than the few bad experiences.

[Phred]

I wonder if this woman wears seatbelts...

 

If so, why?

[Marie in Oh]

Then there was the time in McDonalds with my sister and we were getting the "looks". So I said to my sis realy loud how I wish McD's took food stamps! And how I am so thankful ALL the kid's dads paid their child support that month. My sister vowed to never go in public with me again LOL. ( no offense meant to those who use gov aid or get child support)

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

But you know, I cant tell you how many times I have ran into older ladies who tell me how blessed I am. They tell me that I have a beautiful family and a few tell me that they wish they had had more. That happens more than the few bad experiences.

 

I agree Jean, I do get positive comments. But I get at least an equal number of negative. I think because my oldest is not old enough to stay home yet that I am often out and about with all of them, and a pregnant mom with 6 in tow attracts alot of attention. And they are well behaved for the most part.

 

Recently I had the most interesting comment ever. A man from our church came to our door on a Sunday afternoon to ask us to give money for pro-life walk he was participating in. OF all things to be asking us and then criticizing our big family. I signed the paper work to give and then he said-- are you having another one? Visibly pregnant, I just nodded. Then he said shaking his head, "Man, you better live a long time or the state is going to have to open an orphanage just for your family." :ohmy::ohmy::ohmy:

 

He said this in front of two of my daughters. Come on dude. That was totally inappropriate.

[TravelingChris]

Well what gets me is that some question why you have ____. I was living in California when I was pregnant with my third (and come to be last). As I came from a family of three children and dh from a family with four, I certainly didn't think there was anything unusual about three. I got at least two negative comments and what was really striking was that one was by a civilian employee at the base. Now for those of you who aren't familiar with many military families, military families tend to be larger than average. I don't know if she was new or just didn't like children, the military or what. I wasn't particularly young or old, the children were well spaced apart, and it was none of her business. It gets to me how many people want to rule over other people. I want to live my life in freedom and let others do the same. Like one of you,I also don't want to support other people except for truly exigent situations like fires, hurricanes, catastrophic illness or injury, etc.

[mo2]

I wonder if this woman wears seatbelts...

 

If so, why?

 

 

What? I don't get it.

[Moxie]

What? I don't get it.

 

 

I assume she is making a comment about trusting God to determine family size vs. trusting God to keep you safe in a car. If that is the case, it isn't a great argument.

[Marie in Oh]

it is faulty logic according to those of the QF mindset.

 

Wearing a seatbelt is trying to prevent something bad happeing to you--something unwanterd-- ie. injury or death in an accident. Using bc, in the QF mindset, it trying to prevent something good-- something wanted or desired, ie a new life.

[mo2]

I assume she is making a comment about trusting God to determine family size vs. trusting God to keep you safe in a car. If that is the case, it isn't a great argument.

 

 

OK, thanks. That was a "duh" moment on my part! I guess it's such a poor argument that I didn't even make the connection.

[Testimony]

My husband and I struggled to have two. God bless this family who can have a large quiver. :grouphug:

 

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[pmegan]

Then there was the time in McDonalds with my sister and we were getting the "looks". So I said to my sis realy loud how I wish McD's took food stamps! And how I am so thankful ALL the kid's dads paid their child support that month. My sister vowed to never go in public with me again LOL. ( no offense meant to those who use gov aid or get child support)

 

 

That is SO funny! It's awesome that you have such a good sense of humor about other people being judgmental idiots. :lol:

 

I guess I was hoping someone could take a stab at answering my questions.

 

I notice that my facts and figures were ignored by the person they were in response to, and that my comment about racism was ignored by everyone. I think it's a difficult subject, which is why it's really nice to see that Quiver has a good sense of humor about it!

[*anj*]

 

I think the difference for me with the Duggars is that they put themselves on television. I would never in million years want to talk about Quiver or the family I know in real life the way I am willing to about the Duggars. But the Duggars are there, on tv. Like American Idol contestants. We talk about AI contestants hair and clothes or the strange things they sometimes day and do. We talk about Kate of Jon and Kate Plus 8 and the way she talks to her husband and shrieks at her kids. If you put yourself on TV, you get talked about.

 

But I just don't want our families on here to think I am dissin' them for their lifestyle. I actually admire them greatly.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with what Kelli just said. Totally. I'd rep you if I could, Kelli!

[*anj*]

Hi Marie,

 

I'm sorry you're getting so many negative comments. We have six kids between the ages of 15 and 8 - six kids within seven years! The most common comment is, "Are they all yours?" "YES! We have a lot of fun."

 

You know, I get this all the time too, and I "only" have four children. People often ask me if they're all mine.

I've also noticed that people of certain ethnic backgrounds will often ask me if I'm their mother. My children's skin is significantly lighter than mine, but yeesh, people! They do bear some resemblance to me!

 

Anyway, just wanted to say that unfortunately some people think that any number more than two is "a lot of kids."

[*anj*]

Hello? I have the feeling many people have me on ignore because no one every responds to my posts here. :confused: Can anyone see me? ;)

 

-- just feeling invisible --

 

Why do you think that? Did you ask a specific question? I definitely don't have you on ignore!! :001_smile::001_smile:

[RebeccaC]

Finally have to add my 2 cents here...

(But I do know there are families who did not parent well-and some of them have 1-2 kids and others have 5 or more. Detached parenting isn't limited to parents of large families.)

 

Leah I am so glad that your dm made it work or maybe had the anointing...calling....grace to make it work. What I have really appreciated about Quiver on these boards is like you she see QF as a heart thing not so much a doctrine that needs to be pushed and held in as high or higher regard as salvation. I live about half an hour from ATI headquarters this area used to be carpeted with Godderites and hard line QF folks and they were less than nice about proselytizing for the QF doctrine. Tasted some of their judgmental spirits and it was not nice, been to prayer meetings in which women who were obviously clinically depressed beg God through tears to forgive them because they were overwhelm and did not want more kids.

 

While it is true that there is detached and abusive parenting in every size family the difference between it going wrong in a small family and going wrong in a large family is exponential especially when the going wrong is done in God's name through a very poorly founded in my opinion doctrine like FQ. Not only does the going wrong wound more children and future generations emotionally, mentally and maybe physically but more importantly it wounds spiritually in a religious legalistic manner. I think that spiritual wounds inflicted in the name of religion through legalism are harder to overcome than the other wounds because that type of wounding often blocks access to God's mercy, grace, and healing power.

 

So I guess it is great to have QF as an heart attitude it is just that folks need to make sure it is the heart attitude that God is calling them too and not a legalistic mindset. Legalism makes yokes that some can bear but that many fall with and then begin carrying the added burden of guilt from the fall. In a large family more people fall than in a small family and therefore more harm is done.

 

I am not implying that either you or Quiver are not called because it sure appears like Quiver is called I am writing in generalities here and giving a bit different perspective.

 

This is of course my two cents which may or may not be worth the copper.

[Guest Shanna]

Just for clarification, I'm the one that introduced the whole Levitical Law idea into this conversation. And here's the real reason why---

 

Because the law places restrictions on intimacy that seem to focus predominantly on the most opportune time for a woman to conceive, the law would have an impact on conception as women get older and their cycles become more erratic.

 

For instance, if I ovulate on cycle day 10 rather than 14, adhering to that law would impact my fertility in a big way. It just seems to me that having erratic cycles that don't mesh with the timing as laid out in the law would greatly reduce a womans chances of conceiving as she got older.

 

I personally think this law has a built in stop that would reduce fertility simply because the timings would not sync up. And even if women were still able to conceive later in life, the opportunities for conception would be reducing thereby spacing the children further apart.

 

I came up this idea when I was thinking of the QF life. I thought about the 12 tribes of Israel and realized they were the product of 1 man and 4 women. I thought about why there wouldn't be even more than an average of 4 children per woman. I think that is because they were following the law.

 

 

And this is probably redundant, but the only reason I bring up the law is that because the qf movement itself is supposedly based on the "law" of the scripture. So it just seems that if you're going to follow some sort of law on conception based on the bible, then the one to follow would be the one that speaks directly to the act that brings about conception.

 

But this is based on my own crazy ideas, I'm not trying to convince or move anyone to do or not do anything. I know many QF people and I admire them greatly. Some of them adopt many children, something I hope to do someday. I have quite a few qf friends and role models. And they don't look down on me. I consider myself blessed to be their friends. But my dh and myself happen to interpret scripture differently.

 

 

Kimber

 

But as many say we are not under the law. Now to go into that a bit deeper. There are two separate laws. There is the ceremonial laws and there are moral laws. Christ death fulfilled the ceremonial law as the sacrificial lamb. But we are still to hold to the moral laws. This is known as theonomy. That is how one can say that they are not required to hold to the Levitical law on intimacy because it was a ceremonial law. But we are still to hold the 10 commandments as they are moral laws.

 

Does that answer your question?

[Storm Bay]

I assume she is making a comment about trusting God to determine family size vs. trusting God to keep you safe in a car. If that is the case, it isn't a great argument.

 

For the record, Phred is a he. Also, he's atheist, as far as I can tell from his posts on the evolution threads, and although he hasn't answered my question to him, I think he is a materialist (in the philosophical sense, not in the material goods sense). He may just have wanted to stir up the pot with a controversial question, or it could have been a genuine wonderment.

[Guest Shanna]

I wanted to add that I hope noone feels that I believe this is a salvation issue. The ONLY salvation issue is whether or not you believe that Christ died on the cross to pay for your sins. Nothing more nothing less.

[Storm Bay]

QUOTE=momof7;224230] My problem with all of this is that this is the one area of personal, private choice that many (most) people think it is ok to comment. My children hear negative comments EVERY time we go out. They hate it. Why people think they have some say in our reproduction I have no idea. My dh makes plenty of money, we get no gov aid, they are well provided for, and have the same or more opportunities than many of their peers. It is really not anyone else's business. Now the Duggars, I guess make their business everyone elses' by brooadcasting their life on live TV. That's their business. But when people feel the need to make comments on the number of kids we have on a daily baisis that I don't even know, well, it just makes me mad.

 

I will stop now.

 

I think this is human nature, and yes, it's rude because family size is a right that parents have to choose and when I was very young I used to want to have an enormous family, but things changed when I married older, etc. By the same token how many men and women who are well over 6 feet get comments about the weather, or asked if they play basket ball? How many parents of pg (profoundly gifted) children are accused of pushing their children on a regular basis? Or how many parents of very challenging children get asked, quite rudely I might add, why their kids aren't on medication (it may not have been recommended and/or desired.)? Some people are rude and vocal and some merely give dirty looks. I think that it's not fair to the children and can really hurt them (really tall kids are often teased mercilessly, btw)

 

May I add, that sometimes those well rasied but very challenging children grow up to be fabulous, contributing adults.

[Storm Bay]

This is now the second longest thread on the General Forum, second only to that thread killer thread. This tidbit is for those who are interested in trivia like this.

[pmegan]

This is now the second longest thread on the General Forum, second only to that thread killer thread. This tidbit is for those who are interested in trivia like this.

 

How do you find something like that out?

[Guest Shanna]

Please know I am only speaking for what my husband and I believe. I am not speaking for the whol QF community.

 

What happens if you have a couple where one believes in the quiverful theology and one doesn't? If the one who wants it is the woman but she obeys her husband and doesn't keep having children condemned for unbelief? I don't mean this harshly, but from what I've grasped the husband is considered the head of the home in terms of leadership in the quiverful movement, but correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

Or, on the other side of the coin, what if the husband wants it but the wife doesn't? Does he have any right to force her to have more children than she wants to? I would think not, but am wondering about this from this other perspective.

 

I am of the belief that we are to submit to our husbands in their desires and requests. I would not condemn a woman for not following her QF convictions if her husband desires not to have more children. It goes both ways though. Should the husband be QF and the wife not then I do believe that she should still submit to his requests.

 

Does that answer your questions?

[Guest Shanna]

I can only speak from my experience with this. I have some friends who are QF. One in particular does extended nursing and gets pregnant when/if she gets pregnant. At one time I was agreeing with my friends in the matter of if we trust God with our lives, finances, for provision, then we should trust him in family size. My dh disagreed. I bemoaned this to my friends often (not dissing on my dh, but telling them that I felt this way in my heart and he didn't). They would often tell my dh that they would pray for him...for his heart to be changed. While this was going on, I felt that I should obey my husband because I'm commanded to since he is the head of our household. It never stopped me from praying that in my obedience to my husband if the Lord should see fit that He would bless us with another child.

 

Eventually, my humanness (and libido) took over. We were using the Natural Family Planning method to NOT become pregnant. I felt that this was the best way to appease my dh and also to leave the door open for the Lord to give us another baby. After awhile of hearing dh say "is it safe? is it safe?", I grew weary of not being able to be intimate with him when I/we wanted to (it also killed the romance factor), so dh had a vasc. In my state the wife has to give permission for it to be done. I did so but almost went into the office to have them stop. I cried and went through a depression for many months....all the while knowing that the Lord was the one still in control, that he could have those tubes grow back if he wanted (I know a family where this has happened...the wife's tubes connected again.). Anyway...after a long time in prayer because of a growing resentment I felt toward my dh, my guilt left. *I* feel it was because I was being obedient to my dh and his wishes (he is quite a bit older than me, he has 2 grown children as well as our 2, and he is looking toward retirement, not more babies).

 

I have since come to the conclusion that the QF mindset is GREAT for those who feel called. *I* don't believe that I'm called that way any more as I once was and I'm happy as a clam with my little family.

 

I wanted to commend you on obeying your husband. What a a burden must of been lifted after you were able to do that.

[Guest Shanna]

Then there was the time in McDonalds with my sister and we were getting the "looks". So I said to my sis realy loud how I wish McD's took food stamps! And how I am so thankful ALL the kid's dads paid their child support that month. My sister vowed to never go in public with me again LOL. ( no offense meant to those who use gov aid or get child support)

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

But you know, I cant tell you how many times I have ran into older ladies who tell me how blessed I am. They tell me that I have a beautiful family and a few tell me that they wish they had had more. That happens more than the few bad experiences.

 

I agree Jean, I do get positive comments. But I get at least an equal number of negative. I think because my oldest is not old enough to stay home yet that I am often out and about with all of them, and a pregnant mom with 6 in tow attracts alot of attention. And they are well behaved for the most part.

 

Recently I had the most interesting comment ever. A man from our church came to our door on a Sunday afternoon to ask us to give money for pro-life walk he was participating in. OF all things to be asking us and then criticizing our big family. I signed the paper work to give and then he said-- are you having another one? Visibly pregnant, I just nodded. Then he said shaking his head, "Man, you better live a long time or the state is going to have to open an orphanage just for your family." :ohmy::ohmy::ohmy:

 

He said this in front of two of my daughters. Come on dude. That was totally inappropriate.

 

OH MY!!!! I cannot believe he had the nerve to say that. UGH!!! PEOPLE!!!!

[nmoira]

I wonder if this woman wears seatbelts...

 

If so, why?

 

What? I don't get it.

 

For the record, Phred is a he. Also, he's atheist, as far as I can tell from his posts on the evolution threads, and although he hasn't answered my question to him, I think he is a materialist (in the philosophical sense, not in the material goods sense). He may just have wanted to stir up the pot with a controversial question, or it could have been a genuine wonderment.

I can't speak for Phred, but I don't get it, and I do genuinely wonder why those of certain beliefs choose to trust their God completely to determine one area of their life but not another. At the extreme end, I cannot see the difference between wearing a seat belt as prophylaxis and making sure a woman that will undergo a truly high risk pregnancy doesn't? [especially since the odds are better for the person not wearing a seatbelt] But I have confusion at the less extreme end as well.

[Jenny in Atl]

I think this is human nature, and yes, it's rude because family size is a right that parents have to choose and when I was very young I used to want to have an enormous family, but things changed when I married older, etc. By the same token how many men and women who are well over 6 feet get comments about the weather, or asked if they play basket ball? How many parents of pg (profoundly gifted) children are accused of pushing their children on a regular basis? Or how many parents of very challenging children get asked, quite rudely I might add, why their kids aren't on medication (it may not have been recommended and/or desired.)? Some people are rude and vocal and some merely give dirty looks. I think that it's not fair to the children and can really hurt them (really tall kids are often teased mercilessly, btw)

 

May I add, that sometimes those well rasied but very challenging children grow up to be fabulous, contributing adults.

 

:iagree: This is very true and can be said about all sorts of situations and people. I would guess a small family might get some heat if they lived in an area that valued large families. We just had a very nasty situation at a homeschool music group the girls were attending. We were siting with friends when some of the kids noticed our friends supported Obama for president. A couple of the kids started saying some unfounded rumors about Obama and some not so nice things about Muslims and Africans. It just so happens our friends are Muslim as well as black. Their young son was so upset. Now, the classes are run by a Christian group, so our friends are in the minority there so far as their faith goes. The comments really shocked me. I was so angry and ashamed of these so called "well behaved" teenagers and their visceral comments about this young boy faith and heritage. And the very act of them saying this things to his face.

There is always enough hate and misunderstanding to go around.

[Guest Shanna]

Yes, I would be willing to say that children are a burden in all of these respects. It does take finances, physical ability and emotional stability to care for each child. I also think each of these can be depleted to the point where it would not be wise to add another child because there isn't enought left.

 

For finances, I see people saying "I trust God" but most of the time what they are trusting in is the finances of others.

 

For physical strength, I have seen women run down and ragged, barely able to keep up with things. And the same goes for emotional strength.

 

Another thing that makes no sense to me about people who claim to believe in the sovereignty of God is that they never take it all the way. For instance, I met a woman who believes each miscarriage is a sovereign act of God and each birth is a sovereign act of God, yet she insists on having each birth at a hospital. So, whether the baby lives or dies is completely God's will, so why is the doctor needed?

 

I have never met a person who is willing to carry this theology all the way.

 

Nestof3,

 

I said I would respond but I dont exactly understand what you are asking? Are you asking if someone trusts God with the number of children they have why do they use doctors?

[Storm Bay]

How do you find something like that out?

 

If you go to the bottom of the forum page and click on the viewing threads (can't think of the name, but it's on the left), you can view threads by reply count. The other day, when I should have been getting off the computer, I stalled to try this for the first time. Usually I switch it to the most recently posted ones in case I can answer someone who is not getting any replies or there's something new I don't want to miss. Some days, though, I don't get passed my control panel when there are hot threads like this.

[pmegan]

:iagree: This is very true and can be said about all sorts of situations and people. I would guess a small family might get some heat if they lived in an area that valued large families. We just had a very nasty situation at a homeschool music group the girls were attending. We were siting with friends when some of the kids noticed our friends supported Obama for president. A couple of the kids started saying some unfounded rumors about Obama and some not so nice things about Muslims and Africans. It just so happens our friends are Muslim as well as black. Their young son was so upset. Now, the classes are run by a Christian group, so our friends are in the minority there so far as their faith goes. The comments really shocked me. I was so angry and ashamed of these so called "well behaved" teenagers and their visceral comments about this young boy faith and heritage. And the very act of them saying this things to his face.

There is always enough hate and misunderstanding to go around.

 

That is an awful story :( I have heard that it is becoming very common for Muslim parents to HS because their children are relentlessly bullied by students and even teachers at school. How terrible that such bullying exists even in more carefully controlled environments. Sadly, though, it's not a surprise.

[ummix3]

Hello Ladies,

 

I've been reading this thread here and there and this last post reminds me of a lady I encountered in the drugstore while out with my 4 girls. She was speaking with a sales person and we came in the same isle looking for what we needed. She took one look at us and told the sales clerk, "Oh! I guess the whole school is out today." I don't know this woman so she does not know that I HS, but it almost sounded like she knew. I live in the NYC area and more than 2 kids is strange around here.

 

Since I have all girls I get the constant, "So are you looking for the boy?", "What happened no boys?" Sometimes I don't know if to laugh or get angry at these comments...as if I had a choice when my children were conceived. Just wanted to share....

 

 

nycmom

Michelle

[Jill- OK]

(I'd also be very interested in hearing *how* you--and others--breastfed for that to be the case--whether you fed on demand or on a schedule, whether you used a pacifier or sometimes pumped, and when you introduced solids and at what age the kids were heavily on solids. All these things can be factors that can fool your body into thinking your baby is older than it is. All the "experts" who recommend scheduling babies are setting so many women up for failure. A good percentage of women will end up with inadequate milk supplies--and many more will, of course, get their periods back sooner.)

 

I assume you're asking this of the "early return to fertility" ladies?

 

For me, it was varied; at least one didn't use a pacifier at all, and I'm not an early solids advocate. I already mentioned that I co-slept, etc.

 

But you forgot to mention sleeping habits.

 

There are some women out there who can have an exclusively nursed baby sleep for six hours at a whack, at night, and still maintain infertility. Some can't. If you were to poll mothers that nursed exclusively, you'd find that some could go without a cycle at all, much less ovulatory ones, for a year or more, even when feeding some solids, using a pacifier, etc. Some would say that despite baby-wearing, no pacifiers, etc., their cycle returned comparatively early for what they'd been told to expect.

 

I've also been involved with NFP groups that share statistics, and in one of their surveys, conducted using women who followed what they call 'ecological' breastfeeding (co-sleeping, no early solids or pacifiers, on demand nursing), there were at least four women who had early return of menstruation, one at six weeks postpartum (I can't remember the exact number of women surveyed, but it was significant). On the opposite extreme, one woman didn't have a period until 38 months postpartum. (The average was 13-16 months. This is in the Couple to Couple League's Art of Natural Family Planning, btw).

 

They included this to illustrate the benefits of exclusive nursing, but I think it's also valuable for cautioning women about relying solely on nursing to provide extended fertility, because individuals can vary dramatically from the average. Rare, yes, but possible.

 

I wasn't willing to set an alarm and wake a happily sleeping baby every two hours to find out if I could gain some extra infertile time by nursing more frequently at night. It wasn't worth it. The sleep was, lol. It could be that that's a bigger factor than all the other things, or it could simply be genetic, like other fertility/nursing factors.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I assume she is making a comment about trusting God to determine family size vs. trusting God to keep you safe in a car. If that is the case, it isn't a great argument.

 

Hmm, well, I could see it as a good argument [edited to add] for the qf movement as a whole. Why would one actively prevent death? Death for the Christian is not a thing to be dreaded. It is to be welcomed and celebrated, and God will take a person when He wills - in His own time -- and not before. Nothing mortal man can do can prevent that other than perhaps intercessory prayer. Most Christian leaders say that taking one's own life isn't to be actively sought but that suffering and death are as much glorifying to him as birth and life are. Moreso, if Paul is to be believed.

 

"Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." "We are confident, I say, and willing *rather* to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Paul says that to be with Christ (dead) is "far better" than being alive, even though being alive might be "more needful."

 

If certain Christians welcome all blessings and posit that all life and all death is in the hands of God, then wearing a seatbelt would be actively preventing the blessing of being "with Christ, which is far better" [than abiding "in the flesh"]. That is, this is also true if a condom could actively prevent an omnipotent God from opening the womb if he willed it open, condom or no condom. It follows logically, I think.

 

I vote Phred's argument is pretty good.

[Pensguys]

I wanted to commend you on obeying your husband. What a a burden must of been lifted after you were able to do that.

 

Thank you, Shanna...yes, it was.

[Peek a Boo]

Who spay and neuter their pets? ;-)

 

(Sorry! Hard to resist!)

 

LOL!! actually, you don't need to spay and neuter them if you're going to take care of all the puppies :) It's when you're gonna ditch them on the side of the road or try to give them away that we have a Bad Owner.

 

I'm seeing WAY too much push here to not accept anything unless it is deemed practically risk-free *for one person,* at the expense of another person.

 

The higher IQ's are within 5-8 points. And they can't take into account genetics and environment: talking to your children does quite a bit too :).

 

There is too much evidence in studies and anecdotal evidence that show babies and children are fine and healthy even w/o nursing or with introducing solid foods, or co-sleeping, etc. They would be healthiER?? Some would be SICKlier if they WEREN't breastfed?? sorry, I don't buy THAT any more than you "buy" the "ick factor" from moms. Thankfully, neither are needing to be bought. My decisions for my family are not for sale.

 

And no --you simply can't say ALWAYS. The fact that you insist it ALWAYS happens just loses a lot of credibility in my book. But then again, I'm sure you're not "buying" my book either :)

 

Babywise saved my sanity and parenting. I wish I had discovered it w/ my first 4. There are simply too many variables in a family for another person to decide whether a specific route of feeding is "best" for the whole family. And no, i DON'T consider it borderline abuse for a child to ride unbelted in a car. Give them a ticket for breaking the law? sure. but *abuse*?? no. No more than i would report a mom that let their dc participate in any other activity that had a risk of death or injury [even w/ protective gear]. I might think they are stupid for opening up their kids to such a risk, but i wouldn't call it *abuse*.

 

=================

 

And Mrs. Mungo, I'm absolutely positive that using "Nursing Nazi" has a hurtful effect. As does berating a mom for making a decision OTHER THAN nursing. When you continually assert an opinion that makes a mom feel like CRAP cuz she can't nurse or has some emotional hang up about nursing, and don't support her in finding SOME way to feed her child and still stay sane enough to raise them, then YES, you [a general "you"] are deserving of the title. If you [again, general 'you'] don't want to be called that, then be Very Careful about how you present such information and how you support the Whole Family [like Quiver has in her posts about large families]. I don't consider anyone and everyone who *supports* nursing to be some sort of Nursing Nazi. But if you are ready to report a mom for ABUSE because they simply don't want to nurse?, then yeah, you're sounding intolerant, harsh, and dictatorial and need to reconsider the way you present your opinion if you don't like the title.

 

But as you noted, there are always going to be combative types that don't care what someone else is trying to say, they will call you all kinds of stuff. Nursing Nazi. Abusive. We've all been there in some form.

 

We have some that would be borderline Homeschool Nazis too --they make a family feel like a failure because a child is being sent to school. Just about any topic has those extreme supporters who go rabid and REFUSE to consider any other course.

 

==========

I was another kid who's mom was out of the loop and raising siblings. I guess I fall under the old "you're as scarred as you want to be" philosophy cuz I really didn't mind that aspect of it. i had LOTS of problems dealing w/ my mom and other outside issues that caused me grief, but the actual household/ mothering tasks didn't affect ME like they do some.

 

===============

 

As for "trusting God all the way", well, that sounds like it involves a faulty understanding of theology :)

 

Of course we trust God. God also calls us to ACT on convictions and callings. We trust God to provide a job, but we don't sit on our butt at the couch w/ our hand out. We trust God to provide a spouse, but we don't marry the first person that we bump into in the world. We trust God to protect us, but we wear seatbelts and go to doctors. We trust God for health, but learn what practical things we can do for diet, environment, and safety. We trust God for how many kids we have, but we take steps to feed them however works best for the whole family. We trust that God will point us in the right direction to the information and opportunities we need.

 

Could God have protected the infant Christ in Herod's midst? sure! But He told Joseph to FLEE. Joseph heeded that warning. I wonder if he got remarks from Mary about "trusting God fully" lol. Is death something for a Christian to embrace? yes, but in God's time, not ours. If He has work on earth that He has called us to do, then it behooves us to be obedient and obey His calling to remain here using the means he has provided to keep us safe and healthy.

 

failure to ACT isn't the same as "trusting God", and ACTing isn't "failure to trust God."

 

and since each family has a different walk w/ God, each family will have different areas in which they ACT differently *while they are trusting God*.

Those are called personal convictions. They are PERSONAL cuz they are not dependent on YOUR view of Theology :)

[Cindy in C-ville]

Hi Dawn,

 

Sorry you're feeling ignored. I often post and don't get any responses, so I understand. I wouldn't take it personally; this thread is huge and it took me a while of sifting back through your posts to figure out which one needed a response. I guess this is the one, so I'll take a stab at it.

 

What you're saying about a burden is true. I wouldn't choose that word, but there is definitely a "cost" to having kids, whether you have one child or 23. I can't determine for someone else whether the cost is something they can bear. In my opinion, that's up to the individual/couple. They have to wrestle through it themselves.

 

Regarding finances, I understand. We have received plenty of support from others. With my dh being a pastor, you could rightly say that ALL our income is from the support of people. While I am so thankful for the generosity of people to support us financially, I do see their generosity as being motivated by a movement of God and therefore from the hand of God. He "owns the cattle on a thousand hills" and if He chooses to disperse His resources through the generosity of people's hearts, that's up to Him. The way I view it is that we are blessed by their giving and they are blessed by the act of giving.

 

Sure, I understand being run down, particularly when the babies are little. Nothing is as physically as hard as having babies, toddlers, and preschoolers under the same roof. I feel extremely blessed to have a husband who deeply appreciates what I do and is committed to helping out to the degree that he is able. I, personally, have also been graced with a high level of energy and an ability to function in chaos. Our life gets crazy at times, but it's okay. There have been several times when I've been at the end of my rope, but it always had to do with too many commitments outside the home, not the weight of the kids. I've just now come through an incredibly busy season and I'm tired. But dh and I get on a plane tomorrow and go to our denomination's annual conference. Dh has already given me the freedom to sit in the sauna, go for a run, read, pray, etc. while he goes to the meetings. I need recharge time and I have a husband who is committed to making it happen.

 

Regarding the woman in the hospital, I would agree. I've had two miscarriages and all my babies have been born in hospitals. I consider myself to be reformed in my theology (TULIP) and yet it seems that you are crossing from trusting in the sovreignty of God to fatalism. If you take this logic all the way out, why would you buckle up your children in car seats? Why would you insist they wear a bike helmet? Why would you even choose to feed them healthy food? If they're going to die anyway, what does it matter? And if God's going to do what God's going to do, why even pray? For me, this logic seems to be overreaching Calvinism and venturing into waters in which he never thought we would swim. Now, although I am reformed and the sovreignty of God has become a sweet doctrine to me, as Jonathan Edwards said, I see election/predestination/etc. existing side by side with man's right to choose. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but Pharaoh also hardened his own heart. I can accept that my finite mind cannot get around these concepts and so I trust, by faith, that they coexist. I rest in the Lordship of Christ and I choose to place myself beneath His countenance annd walk in a way that brings glory to His Name. Does this make sense?

 

I am sorry you've felt ignored. I imagine there will be a flurry of activity from the hive. One of the reasons I didn't post was b/c I knew it would take time and I don't have that much of it. However, I have enjoyed thinking through your questions and hope the dialogue continues.

 

:) Cindy

 

Hi Dawn, Nest of 3,

 

I just wanted you to be sure that you saw that I had replied to you (as have other women). :)

 

Cindy

[Peek a Boo]

I have heard that it is becoming very common for Muslim parents to HS because their children are relentlessly bullied by students and even teachers at school. How terrible that such bullying exists even in more carefully controlled environments. Sadly, though, it's not a surprise.

 

...and we know it's not a surprise because many Christian parents have been homeschooling for THAT reason for decades.