Is Public school curricula so advanced nowdays?

[freethinkermama]

You ought not be depressed. A dedicated parent can give their child an outstanding education at home. Even "excellent" schools (my son attends one) are hard put to teach the depth of math, grammar, history, and writing that those implementing a WTM type education can offer. We work at home (quite a bit) because we want that standard of education ourselves.

 

But I know what goes on because I try (as much as I'm able) to volunteer time in the classroom. I was gobsmacked last year in Kindergaten. My son came in "well-prepped". In some sence he didn't need the K program academically (or so I thought) but wow! The richness of that experience blew my mind. They had a great teacher, who had lots of helpers (including parent volunteers) and the children had fun-filled enriching days. I was exhausted just looking at all the work and prep that went into a day, and I thought I was pretty diligent. But there is no way I could have replicated this at home.

 

First Grade is much the same. I'm impressed.

 

I do understand that many public schools are not "excellent" or even good, and maybe truly awful places. I wish that were not the case. And I can see how even parents with the choice of an excellent public school might choose home education instead. There are some very sound reasons for doing so. My child would not get the kind of education I desired for him if I left it to the public schools alone, and our school is about as good a school as one could hope to have.

 

If it makes anyone feel better the teacher who is generally considered the "shining star" at our school (which is filled with a faculty that has unviersal respect) home educates (with his wife) his own children. And (at least to me) he speaks of trying to make his classroom like a bit of "home-school" at school, and you can see it in the classroom.

 

One does not need to be against one form of education to validate ones own choice. A good education can come in many forms and mean different things to different people. I guess LL hit it on the head when she alluded to comments like: "don't worry about it, anything you do at home is better than what they would get at public school." These comments are as preposerous as comments (that home-schoolers hate) that suggest home schoolered kids are little more than truants. It just ain't so. Not all the time anyway.

 

Anyway, I'm not trying to cause anyone "anxiety." I do understand that as a home educator it is awfully easy to be on the defensive or second guess ones self. If it helps I'm on this forum so I can be to be more like some of you, and to help ensure that my child has the same depth of education that many of you are providing for your children. KWIM?

 

Best wishes!

 

Bill

 

I could echo this. We recently moved from a place with terrible schools. Most of the parents who were affiliated with the university there homeschooled because the private schools were just horrific.

 

When we moved, we put the oldest two in school. . and based on what I'm seeing here, we'll put the youngest in in the fall. What they offer here just goes beyond anything I'm able to offer at home, and the teachers--holy mackeral, the skills and the organization and the way the classrooms appear to be managed. . . .

 

I only ever tested my oldest (SAT), and she hit PHS (Post-high school) in 4 categories. She's very challenged here, and is making Bs. I'm floored.

 

I'm very pleased with what I gave my children as a homeschooler, but here--I'm definitely going with the PS.

[JenniferB]

Are they just writing more? Or is it actually good quality writing? Were they in grades 1-4 or higher?

 

I ask because the PS kids here can write a load, but most of it is utter garbage with made up spelling and poor grammar. Writing the WTM way will put kids behind in output in grades 1-4, but in logic stage the outputs equal, and kids taught the classical way will have much higher quality writing. The differences are more obvious the higher in education you go.

 

The history club consisted of homeschoolers who had just finished 5th grade, and public schoolers who had just finished 4th grade. The 4th grade public schoolers could write better and more in every way than the homeschoolers. One homeschooler was on par with the public schoolers one year younger, the rest were much further behind.

 

The assignment was this, read the required book from the American Girl series, then during our meeting we would discuss the book. After some discussion I would put some kind of writing assignment on the board, for example, "Compare yourself to Felicity." It was explained that they should write about 1 page full in a 6 x 9 size journal book. The public school kids would think for a few minutes then starting writing like the wind. The homeschool kids would think a lot longer, struggle, write some, struggle some more, etc. It's not a scientific study, just my observation from this summer club we did last year. The end product of the ps kids was superior to the homeschool kids.

Edited February 25, 2011 by JenniferB
adding more detail for someone who requested it.

[Rivka]

I'm actually surprised that your child couldn't solve this if he's in Singapore 3A because that kind of problem is quite common. Singapore would teach the student to draw a bar diagram with the top bar labeled "x" and underneath one bar labeled "8" next to a double-headed arrow labeled "4". The student should therefore be able to see that x = 12.

 

I thought that only inferior public school curricula taught kids to solve problems like this by drawing a picture. :001_rolleyes:

 

I'm surprised by the amount of defensiveness in parts of this thread. Why have so many people decided that the test is worthless, or that the public school kids couldn't really solve problems like that, or that if they can solve problems like that they must be doing so in an inferior way that doesn't really count? Are people that insecure?

[ChemMommy]

QUOTE=Lilymax;2460561]I am convinced that there are gaps in every child's education, public, private or home schooled. But at least as a homeschooling parent, I get to choose which gaps exist and what to do about it.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[lamamaloca]

One of the reasons that we're homeschooling is that I felt the primary grades, K-2 or so, were TOO academic in the local public and private schools. They seem to push doing "flashy" things like oral reports early on, yet don't do a great job building a solid foundation in the basics. I prefer to allow my little ones more time to play, with short "tutoring" periods in the three Rs.

 

The schools don't seem far ahead by late elementary or middle school. That early academic push really doesn't help and is developmentally inappropriate, IMO.

[mom2scouts]

I'm not insecure. I've had children in the public schools (considered very good) for the past 16 years. I still have one in public school, but I'm homeschooling my two youngest. I know what is going on in public schools and I've seen a decline in the past 16 years. The amount of wasted time is stunning. They watch movies that have nothing to do with the class, they have fundraising assemblies, they have teachers who spend half the class telling personal stories and on and on. My oldest son graduated as a merit and honor diploma student, a member of the National Honor Society, and an AP Scholar and he regularly asks me why I didn't homeschool him. He says he wasted most of his time in school until he got to AP classes.

 

I'm not impressed with the writing pressure in elementary school either. My son was a good writer but now he dislikes writing because of his experience in first grade. His teacher gave him topics and if he got creative with the topics she yelled at him, made him rewrite the assignment and crossed out whole pages of well written work. He was so afraid to write that she began keeping him in from recess every day. I've spent this whole year trying to slowly ease him back into writing well written paragraphs.

[Crimson Wife]

I thought that only inferior public school curricula taught kids to solve problems like this by drawing a picture. :001_rolleyes:

 

 

There's nothing wrong with drawing pictures to help solve certain math problems. But the student needs to also learn how to use the traditional algorithms. The problem with Every Day Math and TERC Investigations is that they don't teach the algorithms and encourage calculator use.

[Perry]

There's nothing wrong with drawing pictures to help solve certain math problems. But the student needs to also learn how to use the traditional algorithms. The problem with Every Day Math and TERC Investigations is that they don't teach the algorithms and encourage calculator use.

:iagree:

Drawing pictures is a great way to become familiar with a new concept. It isn't an efficient way to solve problems once the concept is mastered. TERC puts way too much emphasis on using pictures to solve problems, and not nearly enough on mastery.

[BabyBre]

I thought that only inferior public school curricula taught kids to solve problems like this by drawing a picture. :001_rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

It's inferior curricula (used in the public school, private school, homeschool, or elsewhere) that teaches conceptual methods and never makes the transitions to efficient mathematical algorithms, or makes them too late. Clearly, demonstrating concepts with pictures alone doesn't qualify a program as inferior. As you've just pointed out, this is a Singapore technique, and Singapore is often recommended as an alternative to reform curricula.

[Spy Car]

Not to turn this into a "math wars" thread, but what makes programs like Singapore so good is they use not only pictorial means to teach the concepts, and teach the "standard algorithms" (which are not always the most efficient means of calculating, despite what some reactionary math groups claim), it also teach ways of re-grouping numbers so that mathematical computations can be done efficiently in ones mind.

 

An "algorithm only" math education can be quite shallow.

 

Bill

[zaichiki]

I know for a fact she does not.

 

First -- I aree with you about the calculator use.

 

Now OT a little bit --

How can you know for a fact that another child doesn't have an LD? No offense meant here, but unless testing has been done and has come up negative AND you are privvy to that info, it's just an assumption.

 

(My dd has an LD, but most people don't know about it, and she's working at/above grade level. A person who doesn't know that she's been ID'd with dyslexia would probably not guess that she has.)

[blessedmom3]

I'm actually surprised that your child couldn't solve this if he's in Singapore 3A because that kind of problem is quite common. Singapore would teach the student to draw a bar diagram with the top bar labeled "x" and underneath one bar labeled "8" next to a double-headed arrow labeled "4". The student should therefore be able to see that x = 12.

 

FWIW, I see the PS kids at the library all the time doing their math homework and have been very unimpressed. The kids who appear to be about 4th or 5th grade have assignments that are way behind what's in Singapore 4A.

 

 

 

If you read my post *with care* , you would see that my son solved this . He said it wasn't what he expected and that it was "quite hard" ( his words) but he did it. I also thought this was above age level.

 

The assessment was A LOT like Singapore's placement tests + these in's and out problems ( he had 2-3 of these) which I also think it's hard. However the math program they use is Harcourt .

 

I found a FCAT ( Florida test) for grade 3 and he did about 20 of these without any mistake. The problems in these were much easier than what he had in that grade 2 assessment . I am puzzled .... my dh thinks they just wanted to give us a hard time and prove us that homeschoolers indeed are behind , therefore he has to go one grade behind . The problem is that my son did pretty well , both in reading and math , but it wasn't as easy as we thought !

[angela in ohio]

So there's a big push to take care of "character" before taking care of academics. (But doesn't good character come partly from doing things you don't want to do - like schoolwork - because they're the right thing to do?)

 

Silly. Didn't you know you can only teach character OR academics. No one can do both. Actually, by the very act of teaching your dc academically, you are apparently ruining their character. :rolleyes: :ack2: I've had this conversation so, so many times. I guess my sweet dc never got the memo, though, because they seem to be pretty nice people. :D

 

I've had several homeschool friends who put their dc in school and were shocked at the fact that they were behind. They were fairly academic homeschoolers, but they had bought the mantra that "anything done at home is ahead of what the schools are doing," too, and relaxed a bit over the years. They felt betrayed by homeschool books, speakers, etc.

 

If you want to be relaxed academically, I think that's fine if you are doing it for your own philosophical reasons. I think anyone is free to experiment on their own dc. But you don't need to make inaccurate sweeping generalizations about schools or academic homeschoolers to defend your methods.

Edited February 25, 2011 by angela in ohio

[Jenny in GA]

 

I've had several homeschool friends who put their dc in school and were shocked at the fact that they were behind. They were fairly academic homeschoolers, but they had bought the mantra that "anything done at home is ahead of what the schools are doing," too, and relaxed a bit over the years. They felt betrayed by homeschool books, speakers, etc.

 

 

This is so SO interesting to me ... because in almost a decade of reading about homechooling, being on homeschool forums, and in homeschool support groups ... I have never heard anyone else refute this mantra., except for here at The Hive.

 

It is absolutely what is encouraged in the homeschool world -- relax, whatever your doing is fine, let them go at their own pace, homeschooling is superior just because it is homeschooling ....

 

Interesting that some people are truly getting burned by this. I wonder how often that happens? And why it is never discussed?? (Except for here.)

[chiguirre]

I found a FCAT ( Florida test) for grade 3 and he did about 20 of these without any mistake. The problems in these were much easier than what he had in that grade 2 assessment . I am puzzled .... my dh thinks they just wanted to give us a hard time and prove us that homeschoolers indeed are behind , therefore he has to go one grade behind . The problem is that my son did pretty well , both in reading and math , but it wasn't as easy as we thought !

 

Well, that's probably your answer. If your ds can do well on the 3rd grade FCAT, I wouldn't worry because I'm sure he'll be spending a lot of time on that material over the next 2 years. I'm really not being snarky, it's just that ps does teach to their state tests. Their curriculum goals are dictated by the state standards that the tests assess. On the bright side, if your ds did well on the non-FCAT test, they may treat you with more respect.

 

Good luck!

[justamouse]

This is so SO interesting to me ... because in almost a decade of reading about homechooling, being on homeschool forums, and in homeschool support groups ... I have never heard anyone else refute this mantra., except for here at The Hive.

 

It is absolutely what is encouraged in the homeschool world -- relax, whatever your doing is fine, let them go at their own pace, homeschooling is superior just because it is homeschooling ....

 

Interesting that some people are truly getting burned by this. I wonder how often that happens? And why it is never discussed?? (Except for here.)

 

 

I've never been burned by it, and I would consider myself a relaxed homeschooler. Like I said wayy back in this thread, my Dd 16 is in one public school tech class and she has a 99. It's a lot of biology and chemistry and I found out the other day that her teacher is one of the best in the country. So it's no slacker class.

 

But I never did 8 hours of academics a day. Never. What I DID do, was slowly teach her how to narrate, we did dictation and a lot of outlining. We read a lot. And of course she kept up with her maths although finding a curric that was a good fit for her was a nightmare.

 

All of that slow, deep teaching has borne a lot of fruit--BUT it has been later, not in the grammar stages. So I DO see some truth in that mantra.

 

And, I forgot, my Ds now 20 went back to public school in 10th grade. When I pulled him out of school in 7th it was numerically impossible for him to pass for that year. So I homeschooled him for two years and when he went back, he was accepted into 10th. Again, it takes maturity for the techniques to bear fruit.

Edited February 25, 2011 by justamouse

[Renee in NC]

If you read my post *with care* , you would see that my son solved this . He said it wasn't what he expected and that it was "quite hard" ( his words) but he did it. I also thought this was above age level.

 

The assessment was A LOT like Singapore's placement tests + these in's and out problems ( he had 2-3 of these) which I also think it's hard. However the math program they use is Harcourt .

 

I found a FCAT ( Florida test) for grade 3 and he did about 20 of these without any mistake. The problems in these were much easier than what he had in that grade 2 assessment . I am puzzled .... my dh thinks they just wanted to give us a hard time and prove us that homeschoolers indeed are behind , therefore he has to go one grade behind . The problem is that my son did pretty well , both in reading and math , but it wasn't as easy as we thought !

 

Are you talking about Harcourt EnVision? If so, this *is* a very difficult program! My 3rd grader uses it and his homework 2 nights ago was problems like "1/8 of 24" and "What conclusion can you make about the following polygons?" I had to look the second one up because I had *no* idea what they wanted.:tongue_smilie: It is a decent program, but this is the first year our district has used it. I am not sure the teachers are trained in it enough and I also don't think there is enough computation practice. Most of the problems are word problems that require the student to work 2-3 steps.

[mommymilkies]

This is so SO interesting to me ... because in almost a decade of reading about homechooling, being on homeschool forums, and in homeschool support groups ... I have never heard anyone else refute this mantra., except for here at The Hive.

 

It is absolutely what is encouraged in the homeschool world -- relax, whatever your doing is fine, let them go at their own pace, homeschooling is superior just because it is homeschooling ....

 

Interesting that some people are truly getting burned by this. I wonder how often that happens? And why it is never discussed?? (Except for here.)

 

I have never seen this with anyone I know that has put their children in school, either. IRL or online except for here. I do know that I switched schools a lot as a kid, and had many friends/family that did as well, and switching to any new format or school always shows a gap somewhere. I would rather have my children be a little behind in math but with a love of learning so that they can catch up and enjoy learning than be like me with wonderful aptitude and my love of learning beaten out of me by bad schools. Not that all schools are bad, but many are not good matches for many kids.

[Spy Car]

Are you talking about Harcourt EnVision? If so, this *is* a very difficult program! My 3rd grader uses it and his homework 2 nights ago was problems like "1/8 of 24" and "What conclusion can you make about the following polygons?" I had to look the second one up because I had *no* idea what they wanted.:tongue_smilie: It is a decent program, but this is the first year our district has used it. I am not sure the teachers are trained in it enough and I also don't think there is enough computation practice. Most of the problems are word problems that require the student to work 2-3 steps.

 

enVision is the math program my son uses at school. So far I'm not hating it. But even with First Grade math I (like you) have had to read a few things more than once to get where they were going with the questions.

 

Let's hope the kids are smarter than we are :D

 

Bill

[Renee in NC]

enVision is the math program my son uses at school. So far I'm not hating it. But even with First Grade math I (like you) have had to read a few things more than once to get where they were going with the questions.

 

Let's hope the kids are smarter than we are :D

 

Bill

 

I don't hate it either, but I'm interested to see how it turns out in the middle/high school grades. My ds is currently in 6th in ps and none of those kids have had Harcourt EnVision. Honestly, I was so worried about ds because his math computation is really bad (mostly likely dyslexia related), but he's doing fine overall in math.

[SeekingSimplicity]

I wonder how many of the school's current students can pass that same test your son was given. Not many, I would guess.

 

 

Shoot, I don't know that I could pass it! LOL

[ColoradoMom]

This is so SO interesting to me ... because in almost a decade of reading about homechooling, being on homeschool forums, and in homeschool support groups ... I have never heard anyone else refute this mantra., except for here at The Hive.

 

It is absolutely what is encouraged in the homeschool world -- relax, whatever your doing is fine, let them go at their own pace, homeschooling is superior just because it is homeschooling ....

 

Interesting that some people are truly getting burned by this. I wonder how often that happens? And why it is never discussed?? (Except for here.)

 

I think what people are missing about the statistics is that the benefits of homeschool are cumulative. So if you pull your child from school for a year or two and take the totally relaxed method, then put them back in, they are probably behind. You cannot compare apples to oranges like that.

 

The statistics for homeschoolers who have been homeschooled for 6 or more years generally put the kids several years ahead. So the longer you homeschool (regardless of your style) the higher the cumulative benefit.

 

You cannot expect to use a personalized approach for one year and then have your child be at the same level when they return to school.

 

We've been relaxed homeschoolers for 10 years now and even in the third grade my son was years ahead in some areas, on track in others, and behind in one - writing.

 

Like I care - I know that when he leaves me after high school he's on track where I think he needs to be. Why would I care how he compareed to other students back when he was 12? He's been taught with a totally different method and in some cases, totally different subjects. The whole point of homeschooling for ME, is that he's always at the correct point in HIS education according to HIS personalized path.

 

If I wanted him to learn the same subjects at the same time period as the public school I would have left him there in the first place.

[Renee in NC]

I find this rather disturbing though because how well versed are the teachers with using this program? You are a total mathy guy who comes here to talk math on a regular basis and you have been confused?! A teacher in an elementary school classroom is juggling all of the subjects. I just wonder how that all works out.

 

I think the teacher would have know what the question meant, just like I do now. The book was looking for the answer to "What conclusion can you draw about these polygons?", which was "They are all convex." I had to look it up because I had no idea what conclusions you would draw about polygons.

[ColoradoMom]

I had to look it up because I had no idea what conclusions you would draw about polygons.

 

:D

 

I don't know how that questions is even pertinent to "being educated" in the first place.

[justamouse]

I think what people are missing about the statistics is that the benefits of homeschool are cumulative. So if you pull your child from school for a year or two and take the totally relaxed method, then put them back in, they are probably behind. You cannot compare apples to oranges like that.

 

The statistics for homeschoolers who have been homeschooled for 6 or more years generally put the kids several years ahead. So the longer you homeschool (regardless of your style) the higher the cumulative benefit.

 

You cannot expect to use a personalized approach for one year and then have your child be at the same level when they return to school.

 

We've been relaxed homeschoolers for 10 years now and even in the third grade my son was years ahead in some areas, on track in others, and behind in one - writing.

 

Like I care - I know that when he leaves me after high school he's on track where I think he needs to be. Why would I care how he compareed to other students back when he was 12? He's been taught with a totally different method and in some cases, totally different subjects. The whole point of homeschooling for ME, is that he's always at the correct point in HIS education according to HIS personalized path.

 

If I wanted him to learn the same subjects at the same time period as the public school I would have left him there in the first place.

 

Exactly!!! Said a different way, but exactly what I'm also saying.

[melmichigan]

Good public schools are doing a lot more than than one would guess from reading the stereotypical characterizations than are often made on this forum.

 

Many people are absolutely kidding themselves.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

[JessReplanted]

This is so SO interesting to me ... because in almost a decade of reading about homechooling, being on homeschool forums, and in homeschool support groups ... I have never heard anyone else refute this mantra., except for here at The Hive.

 

It is absolutely what is encouraged in the homeschool world -- relax, whatever your doing is fine, let them go at their own pace, homeschooling is superior just because it is homeschooling ....

 

Interesting that some people are truly getting burned by this. I wonder how often that happens? And why it is never discussed?? (Except for here.)

 

:iagree:

[Spy Car]

I find this rather disturbing though because how well versed are the teachers with using this program? You are a total mathy guy who comes here to talk math on a regular basis and you have been confused?! A teacher in an elementary school classroom is juggling all of the subjects. I just wonder how that all works out.

 

Mostly it's not half-bad. Most of what I've seen is quite "teachable" and uses a hybrid-Asian/American method that, while it might not be my personal choice, does a pretty reasonable job and is generally clear.

 

The questions that make one *blink* are relegated to a small sub-set of problems labeled either "Reasoning" or "Algebra" (why this name since I don't see how they are necessarily "algebra") and even with-in this subset of problems that are what we might call the "challenging" problems, it is only a few that are blink-worthy.

 

And even with those the children generally have a pretty good run-up to these problems. They do have to make an extra step (or two) but these types of challenge are nice to have in a math text. Parents with the disadvantage of not having run through the precursor problems may scratch their heads hitting these "blind", but....

 

We will definitely be continuing our own math program at home, but enVision is not bad.

 

Bill

[Surfside Academy]

I think you have to look at the end product when comparing homeschoolers vs. public school. Comparing a homeschooled 3rd grader to a ps 3rd grader doesn't mean much. At the end of a student's education however, has the public school (or homeschool) produced students who are well read, well spoken and can think logically? Are they ready for college-level work or to contribute immediately to the work force? Can they compete on an international level with regards to math, science, industry?

 

I don't know many who would argue against the conclusion that American public schools overall, have fallen far behind in this regard.

[catz]

I could echo this. We recently moved from a place with terrible schools. Most of the parents who were affiliated with the university there homeschooled because the private schools were just horrific.

 

When we moved, we put the oldest two in school. . and based on what I'm seeing here, we'll put the youngest in in the fall. What they offer here just goes beyond anything I'm able to offer at home, and the teachers--holy mackeral, the skills and the organization and the way the classrooms appear to be managed. . . .

 

I only ever tested my oldest (SAT), and she hit PHS (Post-high school) in 4 categories. She's very challenged here, and is making Bs. I'm floored.

 

I'm very pleased with what I gave my children as a homeschooler, but here--I'm definitely going with the PS.

 

My son attended 2 years of public school before homeschooling. Our school is highly rated in a highly rated state. I would say 90% of the kids there were engaged and very well taught. I saw a high level of teacher prep involved. My child is highly to profoundly gifted, and this was a disaster for him. I think highly rated schools can be great for many kids, but perhaps not for extremely out of the box kids (gifted, LD, 2E, ADD, etc). I know there are exceptions to every rule and kids in these categories that do feel they have a good school fit. But that was my experience. We toured no less than 20 public and private schools locally (we're in a major metro area - all those are within 15 miles of our home.). I didn't get the feel any school was going to be any better for my particular child than homeschooling. This particular kid was really born to homeschool. My second? Meh - still figuring that out! ;)

[blessedmom3]

Are you talking about Harcourt EnVision? If so, this *is* a very difficult program! My 3rd grader uses it and his homework 2 nights ago was problems like "1/8 of 24" and "What conclusion can you make about the following polygons?" I had to look the second one up because I had *no* idea what they wanted.:tongue_smilie: It is a decent program, but this is the first year our district has used it. I am not sure the teachers are trained in it enough and I also don't think there is enough computation practice. Most of the problems are word problems that require the student to work 2-3 steps.

 

 

Sorry , I was wrong . The FCAT ( Florida standardized test) is Harcourt , but I also have the book they use at our PS --It's Scott Foresman -Addison Wesley , with a frog on it for grade 2. I have never used it because Singapore , beestar and CLE gave us enough work , but it does not look very challenging . By the end of the book though , they do have 2 steps word problems .

Edited February 25, 2011 by blessedmom3

[JennyD]

I am anything but an expert on homeschool curricula, but occasionally when looking through catalogs I have wondered how the writers set grade levels. From one angle, there's an incentive to set the grade levels lower rather than higher, because presumably parents are less likely to purchase a curriculum that would have their children 'behind' rather than at grade level or above (i.e, if you're shopping for a third grader, you're going to be more drawn to a program for which you could buy Grade 3 instead of Grade 2). But OTOH, if the grade levels are too out of whack then the program becomes far less desirable.

 

Personally, from what I can tell, our zoned elementary school seems to be doing an excellent job getting the kids reading and (especially) writing. Math is weaker, they don't do much history or science, the school is PACKED to the gills, and the kids barely get any time to run around, but they are not churning out illiterates.

Edited February 25, 2011 by JennyD

[Tabrett]

Last summer I did a history club in my home with homeschool kids and public school kids. The public school kids could write circles, no whirlwinds, around most of the homeschool kids. One of the homeschool kids, who I formerly considered a "gifted" writer, was at about the same level as the public school kids who were one year younger than her.

 

I'm guessing that at least with writing and in my school district the public school kids are getting some rigorous instruction, and that the teachers have some high standards.

 

I must edit to add a "but." But, the homeschool kids stayed in the history club for the whole summer while the public school kids quit because it was too hard, either to obtain the books from the library, or do the reading, or just too hard in general. So, there you have it, my unscientific comparison.

But, were the public schooled dc gifted? I have to wonder what kind of public schooled dc would attend a summer history club. I'm going to take a guess that this type of dc would be very gifted. Why would an average dc subject themselves to more school in the summer. Again, I'm going to guess that the homeschooled dc who attend the club were more average. If the homeschooled dc who attended the club were public schooled would they have still chosen to attend the club? Or did the homeschooled parents think it was a good idea and good social outlet for their dc and decided for them that they should attend?

 

I don't know the answers to the above, but as a homeschooling parent, I would be more likely to sign up my dc for your club than I would be if my dc attended public school. And by no means are my dc gifted!

 

When my oldest dd was in public high school she was in the book club. The book club was composed of the brightest dc in the school. I'm guessing the "book club" dc are the same type of dc that would attend a summer history club.

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Concerning other posters questions on the test given to find out what level a dc is at when entering public school, these tests are specific to the publisher's text book that are being taught. The state tests are written with these text book in mind.

 

You can't compare what level you dc is at with these types of test. To get a true comparison of how homeschoolers are doing we need to look at tests like the SAT. The SAT is not written with a particular publisher's standards.

 

Here is some info on how homeschoolers SAT scores compare to public schoolers. The info is a little old, but at least it give some sort of base line.

[catz]

Our PS did a great job getting kids up and writing very quickly. But really, when a kid is sitting in a desk all day long, they really need to do a bunch of writing to kill time. He brought a tree's worth of papers home every week. So I wouldn't say he learned a ton by that busy work they threw at him. But it did make him more ok with getting words down on paper. My kid came home writing and spelling well above grade level after 2 years of PS.

 

My (young - summer b-day) first grader is still a fairly reluctant writer (HS from start). But is reading at about 5th grade level. I'm starting to push a little harder with her on the spelling/writing. She can certainly write a few sentences on her own though.

 

I've noticed this trend with homeschooling to not encourage writing until they're in the midst of grammar and learning about writing academic papers. And to learn spelling in a very piece meal way. In kindergarten at PS my son was just told to write. They didn't care about spelling - just getting letters down on paper. Just addressing that process of thinking and then writing down what you're thinking can go a long ways in getting kids rolling. Sometimes I think it's a block with confidence and the desire to spell everything well. I'm doing more of that kind of thing with my first grader. I do spelling with her, but sometimes I just try to get her to "free write".

[angela in ohio]

I am anything but an expert on homeschool curricula, but occasionally when looking through catalogs I have wondered how the writers set grade levels. From one angle, there's an incentive to set the grade levels lower rather than higher, because presumably parents are less likely to purchase a curriculum that would have their children 'behind' rather than at grade level or above (i.e, if you're shopping for a third grader, you're going to be more drawn to a program for which you could buy Grade 3 instead of Grade 2). But OTOH, if the grade levels are too out of whack then the program becomes far less desirable.

 

And when they switch to that curriculum and their dc are "finally getting it" because it is a much easier/ behind grade level program, it's a huge selling point. ;) :D Parents really have to do their homework to know about different curriculum.

[MBM]

But, were the public schooled dc gifted? I have to wonder what kind of public schooled dc would attend a summer history club. I'm going to take a guess that this type of dc would be very gifted. Why would an average dc subject themselves to more school in the summer. Again, I'm going to guess that the homeschooled dc who attend the club were more average. If the homeschooled dc who attended the club were public schooled would they have still chosen to attend the club? Or did the homeschooled parents think it was a good idea and good social outlet for their dc and decided for them that they should attend?

 

 

Summer school is immensely popular at our public high school. If you don't register for classes in February, you might not get your choice. Students ranging from remedial to gifted attend. My son is taking a public speaking and a writing class this summer.

 

Another oddity: the earliest classes are very much in demand. Kids get in only by lottery, and those who do consider themselves lucky. These are primarily science classes, but some of the music classes (non-lottery) also start early. Class starts at 7:00 am, bright and early. Go figure!

[Tabrett]

Summer school is immensely popular at our public high school. If you don't register for classes in February, you might not get your choice. Students ranging from remedial to gifted attend. My son is taking a public speaking and a writing class this summer.

 

Another oddity: the earliest classes are very much in demand. Kids get in only by lottery, and those who do consider themselves lucky. These are primarily science classes, but some of the music classes (non-lottery) also start early. Class starts at 7:00 am, bright and early. Go figure!

 

I assume that summer school classes are for credit? That is very different from a club. The OP has a history club in her house, not a summer school class taught at a school.

 

The only summer school classes offered where I live are for dc who failed a subject. Now, we do have band camps and other clubs, but no accredited summer school classes except drivers ed.

[JenniferB]

But, were the public schooled dc gifted? I have to wonder what kind of public schooled dc would attend a summer history club. I'm going to take a guess that this type of dc would be very gifted. Why would an average dc subject themselves to more school in the summer. Again, I'm going to guess that the homeschooled dc who attend the club were more average. If the homeschooled dc who attended the club were public schooled would they have still chosen to attend the club? Or did the homeschooled parents think it was a good idea and good social outlet for their dc and decided for them that they should attend?

 

I think all the kids, both hs & ps in the club just wanted something to do with friends once a week. One ps child did seem gifted, as she was just getting out of 3rd grade, and wrote better than them all. However, for the most part, it was motivated by being with frieds, and we also had a bouncy water park thing in our back yard, so after club they could play on that. However, like I mentioned in my other post, the ps kids quit the club after a few weeks, while the hs kids stayed in the club. Though they could write better, no doubt, the ps kids didn't have the motivation for all that extra learning, even with a water park in the back yard.

[BabyBre]

I think you have to look at the end product when comparing homeschoolers vs. public school. Comparing a homeschooled 3rd grader to a ps 3rd grader doesn't mean much. At the end of a student's education however, has the public school (or homeschool) produced students who are well read, well spoken and can think logically? Are they ready for college-level work or to contribute immediately to the work force? Can they compete on an international level with regards to math, science, industry?

 

I don't know many who would argue against the conclusion that American public schools overall, have fallen far behind in this regard.

 

 

:iagree:

[MBM]

I assume that summer school classes are for credit? That is very different from a club. The OP has a history club in her house, not a summer school class taught at a school.

 

The only summer school classes offered where I live are for dc who failed a subject. Now, we do have band camps and other clubs, but no accredited summer school classes except drivers ed.

 

The rules are that no incoming freshman may receive credit for summer school classes but upperclassman may depending on the course (example: some of the AP science classes). Other classes are not for credit and are for those interested in learning more about a particular topic.

 

The grade schools also offer summer courses that are both remedial and for fun. My son took a jazz improv class last year and had a blast.

 

What our school district does is not the norm, but so far, we've been happy with most of it. (Now I must go knock on wood!)

[JenniferB]

Here is some info on how homeschoolers SAT scores compare to public schoolers. The info is a little old, but at least it give some sort of base line.

 

These numbers are really old, and they don't have the new format with writing included. I wonder what the numbers would show with writing included? I also wonder what the up to date numbers would be? Anyone have that info?

[Tabrett]

These numbers are really old, and they don't have the new format with writing included. I wonder what the numbers would show with writing included? I also wonder what the up to date numbers would be? Anyone have that info?

I have searched and can't find anything newer. I tried to find a way to contact HSLDA to see if they were going to publish the 2010 SAT scores, but I can't find a contact number for a non-member.

You would think that someone would publish the numbers!

[Tabrett]

I think all the kids, both hs & ps in the club just wanted something to do with friends once a week. One ps child did seem gifted, as she was just getting out of 3rd grade, and wrote better than them all. However, for the most part, it was motivated by being with frieds, and we also had a bouncy water park thing in our back yard, so after club they could play on that. However, like I mentioned in my other post, the ps kids quit the club after a few weeks, while the hs kids stayed in the club. Though they could write better, no doubt, the ps kids didn't have the motivation for all that extra learning, even with a water park in the back yard.

Do you think the ps dc were "burned out"?

I'm really curious. I don't push much writing at younger ages. My oldest dd didn't write any papers in 6 or 7th grades and then in 8th grade I taught her how to write a 5 paragraph essay. She entered public high school and the teachers were commenting that she was one of the only dc who knew how to write a paper?!?!?

[JenniferB]

Do you think the ps dc were "burned out"?

I'm really curious. I don't push much writing at younger ages. My oldest dd didn't write any papers in 6 or 7th grades and then in 8th grade I taught her how to write a 5 paragraph essay. She entered public high school and the teachers were commenting that she was one of the only dc who knew how to write a paper?!?!?

 

I think the ps kids didn't like all the reading. I also think my SD focuses on writing in particular.

[FairProspects]

Do you think the ps dc were "burned out"?

I'm really curious. I don't push much writing at younger ages. My oldest dd didn't write any papers in 6 or 7th grades and then in 8th grade I taught her how to write a 5 paragraph essay. She entered public high school and the teachers were commenting that she was one of the only dc who knew how to write a paper?!?!?

 

Good for you! This is another example of what I was suggesting, that in grades 1-4 (perhaps even 5-7) ps kids will appear to be ahead in writing by sheer volume, but trust me as a former High School Writing teacher, most times it will not be quality writing.

[Capt_Uhura]

Good for you! This is another example of what I was suggesting, that in grades 1-4 (perhaps even 5-7) ps kids will appear to be ahead in writing by sheer volume, but trust me as a former High School Writing teacher, most times it will not be quality writing.

 

Thank you for writing that! I've been thinking along those lines but it's nice to hear from someone who has been in the trenches!

[Laurie4b]

:iagree:. The school tried so hard to "advance" the students that they failed to lay a good foundation of basics.

 

:iagree: This is exactly what I see with the kids I tutor. They are getting really pretty meaningless algebra and probability, etc. in elementary and yet at the same time, don't have a solid grasp of the basic four operations, fractions, decimals, percentages, place value, etc. It is a mile wide and an inch deep. The teachers will say the same thing, but they have to obey orders as to how much to cover each year.

[AuntPol]

I will throw in my personal experience:

 

K-1 Math seemed "advanced" -concepts like multiplication, division, etc were being taught

 

Grade 4 -Kids don't know math facts; gifted math pull-out kids are requested to learn math facts at home; regular kids still drawing out dots to do multiplication and division even those this is their fifth year doing the concept of multiplication and division.

 

They did a lot of writing -full pages in 2nd grade but taught absolutely zero grammar and spelling.

[catz]

Good for you! This is another example of what I was suggesting, that in grades 1-4 (perhaps even 5-7) ps kids will appear to be ahead in writing by sheer volume, but trust me as a former High School Writing teacher, most times it will not be quality writing.

 

This is the feel I've gotten as well. They get kids putting words down on paper very quickly. But quality is not there in general.

[ColoradoMom]

I don't push much writing at younger ages. My oldest dd didn't write any papers in 6 or 7th grades and then in 8th grade I taught her how to write a 5 paragraph essay. She entered public high school and the teachers were commenting that she was one of the only dc who knew how to write a paper?!?!?

 

Funny, that's kind of how we ended up as well. In 6th and 7th writing actually made him cry - then this year it was like - 5 paragraph essay, no problem...with ZERO input from me. It just came pouring out. Of course, he still hates it but it all makes sense and he can whip one out no problem if he is forced.

 

That's just one of our "relaxed" methods that has paid dividends...

 

The only subject I was totally anal about teaching was reading in first grade. I was sort of a tyrant, but after that I calmed down a lot and let him go at his own pace. He did some copywork up until 3rd grade and then we quit that too.

 

When my daughter was in PS (first - sixth) she did a lot of writing but for many years (so it seemed) she was writing phonetically - in fact she really had a hard time with spelling in later elementary because they let her write phonetically for so long. When I taught my son to read we did sight words and phonics and he's never had a problem with spelling.

 

So methods really do matter.