Is Public school curricula so advanced nowdays?

[Renee in NC]

:iagree:

 

I know a woman whose child is the same age as my oldest. When they were both five and six, the mother was often talking about how great her child's school was, and how much they were learning, and how well her child was doing.

 

But around the end of third grade, it was a different tune. Her child was still doing well in school. But the mother was frustrated that the school was throwing concepts at the kids so fast, especially in math class. She said they would have two days on a new concept, have a test the third day, then move on to something else. Another day she told me, "If I had the money, I would absolutely pull her out and send her to a private school."

 

I live in a really good school district, and I constantly hear parents talk about how impressed they are with the schools, and how much the kids are learning, and how advanced it it. But sometimes I wonder: How will that pan out by around seventh and eighth grade?

 

I agree with the bolded - my 3rd grader's class has to do 2 lessons a day in math from here until the FCAT in order to finish the book. They "skip around" and save what they see as the easier topics until last (clocks, elapsed time, fractions, etc.) This means he has 2-4 pages of math homework every night. The teacher hates it, but it is out of her control (she is told what to cover when - she has little control over her own lesson plans.)

[Renee in NC]

Threads like this make me wonder why I bother trying to home school...:glare:

 

Then I remember that they don't recognize my oldest's dyslexia, they never follow IEP's or behavior intervention plans and I spend more time at school than I do at home (which would prevent me from getting a job) and they were always out of class and not learning anything anyway.

 

I'd really love to know where these advanced public schools are. They aren't here. And my kids were behind when I pulled them out - they have various and sundry issues - some the schools recognize and some they don't - so we'll just keep on keeping on.

 

(And I pray like you know where that nothing will happen to me before I can get them graduated and out into the world - though we do have contingency plans)

 

We're in Volusia County, FL, though I wouldn't call the whole county "advanced." We live in the wealthy part of the county and that seems to make a difference. The school is following my dc's IEPs without much fuss, but getting there took some work. I am *not* impressed with services they receive, though. For my advanced 1st grade dd, the school is fine, except she is ready for much, much more next year than they offer.

 

We are moving to an area where the schools are not good. We will most likely homeschool again, though there are a couple of charters that are a possiblity.

[whitestavern]

Good public schools are doing a lot more than than one would guess from reading the stereotypical characterizations than are often made on this forum.

 

Many people are absolutely kidding themselves.

 

Bill

 

Spy Car...please give your opinion on how to determine whether your local ps are "good public schools". Ours are supposedly highly rated, but I'm looking for concrete ways to rate them. This thread has me depressed, frankly, that I'm part of that disillusioned group that thinks their kids are getting a better education at home :( If my dc can get a better education at our local school then I'm happy to look into that.

[Ellie]

See, I would have suggested that you put together a cum file, have your dc tested with a standardized test (even if it isn't required in your state), and tell the school that you were enrolling your ds in 2nd grade, rather than "requesting" it.

 

Yes, that's pre-algebra. No 7½yo child should have to know that stuff. But many states think that by pushing pre-algebra on dc so young, they'll do better in the long run with math. Publishers have to write their materials to follow the curriculum established by legislators. Apparently none of them have figured out that all children need basic arithmetic skills, and that test scores are not improving because of this early push.

[sleepymommy]

Spy Car...please give your opinion on how to determine whether your local ps are "good public schools". Ours are supposedly highly rated, but I'm looking for concrete ways to rate them. This thread has me depressed, frankly, that I'm part of that disillusioned group that thinks their kids are getting a better education at home :( If my dc can get a better education at our local school then I'm happy to look into that.

 

:bigear:

 

I'd love to know what the determining factors are too. We are moving to what is supposed to be one of the best school districts in the country (so I hear), but I just don't get what's so great about them.

 

My SIL and MIL who live there are wanting me to give it a try with ds6 and just see how it goes. I understand their POV, but when I ask for specifics about the schools nothing sounds exceptional to me. (Except for TJ High School, but that's a long time away).

[knit247]

This thread has me depressed, frankly, that I'm part of that disillusioned group that thinks their kids are getting a better education at home :( If my dc can get a better education at our local school then I'm happy to look into that.

 

:lurk5:

[Laura Corin]

Calvin was academically more than ready to skip a grade when he was four, but he was absolutely unable to cope socially, despite being several inches taller than the other children. He went to school for a few years in his age-appropriate grade. He was often bored but I think that social pressure with older children would have been unbearable.

 

We then home educated him for seven years before he decided to go back to school. For various reasons he wanted to skip a grade, so after consulting with the school, we agreed. It has been a very good decision - he gets lots of comments from teachers on his maturity and he is developing a good group of friends. He's still tall, so doesn't stand out.

 

So at four he was academically ready but socially not. At thirteen he was raring to go. How would he have been at seven or eleven? I suspect that it was only from the onset of puberty that he grew into himself enough for the skip to be the right decision. Your child is not, of course, my child. But it's worth thinking about more than just the academics.

 

Good luck,

 

Laura

[pdalley]

We're in Volusia County, FL, though I wouldn't call the whole county "advanced." We live in the wealthy part of the county and that seems to make a difference. The school is following my dc's IEPs without much fuss, but getting there took some work. I am *not* impressed with services they receive, though. For my advanced 1st grade dd, the school is fine, except she is ready for much, much more next year than they offer.

 

We are moving to an area where the schools are not good. We will most likely homeschool again, though there are a couple of charters that are a possiblity.

 

I'd love a charter. We only have one here that would work and it only goes up to 8th grade and is impossibly full. Hopefully the charter cap will be lifted in the next few weeks but it will take a long time before the others could be up and running. Even if we could afford private it's not an option here.

 

I cannot send my kids back to the local public schools. They insisted my oldest did not have dyslexia and he lost years of remediation because I stupidly believed them. They wouldn't follow IEPS - suspended them at the drop of a hat for their autistic behaviors that were well documented and covered under IDEA. So they spent very little time in class anyway. I wanted them in self contained classes - they insisted they be mainstreamed. They were bullied, punished for responding to bullying, etc. Oldest was treated by his entire third grade groups of teachers as a nasty virus. They shoved him off to his paraeducator the majority of the year.

 

I have neither the finances or the energy to sue the school district. I probably should have - seeing as one teacher threw my middle son across a classroom.

 

It's just depressing to be stuck here (and job wise we are) with no other options and be working my rear off and seeing stuff like this. My dismal opinion isn't just my own - I have teachers that I know that say the local schools are awful - some continue to work there and others have left to teach at other places or just plain quit.

 

When they were in school I was there - not just because they called me every five minutes. I made sure they did their homework - worked with them after school. It's not like I was an uninvolved parent when they were in school. I think they were frustrated because of all the kids' issues and just plain didn't want to deal with them.

 

I'm going to chose to focus on the positive - my oldest is making rapid progress with his tutor and switching to a boxed curriculum. That way I'm sure they're getting 'some' education. Maybe it's not as good as public school but they refuse to provide it to my kids.

[Sahamamama]

I don't think it is more advanced, just a different approach.

 

Yes, the dc do math like that, but there is very little focus on math facts and accurate computation. The "concepts" are more important than computation. However, I have a ds in the 6th grade in ps and I can tell you that it isn't "advanced" at that end as they are still working on the same kind of thing.:tongue_smilie:

 

Yes, they expect the students to give as many details as possible about a story. This isn't assessing comprehension so much as short-term memory. (This was a difficult transition for my dd who had been taught to narrate TWTM way.)

 

Can he write multiple sentences with detail (even if the words aren't spelled correctly?) That is another focus.

 

I think by focusing on the advanced that they miss the basics, which are the foundation of future learning.

 

:iagree:This is exactly what my sister has said concerning her children's early years at public school. The school tried so hard to "advance" the students that they failed to lay a good foundation of basics. For example, the idea was to promote creative expression, at the expense of all the basics -- handwriting, spelling, grammar, mechanics, or format. A typical assignment for a first grader was to "keep a journal" or "ask a friend what he thinks this means." It was so self-referential that one wonders how young children, instructed by no one but themselves and their equally uninformed peers, could ever learn the basics of reading, writing, and math this way. There was almost no direct, explicit, sequential, structured, systematic, consistent instruction.

 

My sister has seen a shift in the school since her boys were there, more towards an "old-fashioned" approach. She much prefers this, because she has (a) seen the damaged the whole language method inflicted on her sons, and (b) observed the measurable advantages of direct instruction with her daughter (now in 3rd grade). The boys seem to have wasted most of 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th grades -- at least FIVE years -- making up for (or trying to make up for) the lack of basic skills, which could have been taught and mastered in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

 

IMO, the PS curriculum isn't exactly advanced in what the children have mastered. If exposure counts for something, then it may be advanced, but we are going for the foundations here.

 

FWIW, when your child goes to PS, keep an eye on his mastery of the basics. HTH.

[Ester Maria]

The examples provided by the OP are perfectly normal second grade content in my experience. From time to time, indeed, I get pleasantly surprised by public schools, to the point of (almost) regaining my faith in humanity.

[BabyBre]

My two cents as a ps parent who's all up in the curricula: Some areas may seem advanced, but fundamentals are merely touched on, thereby allowing more time for other concepts (this is intentional). I'd bet the kids are drawing pictures, not using algebraic skills to solve those problems. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing for 2nd graders, just that that's a typical MO for that type of curriculum, and when it comes to actually using algebraic skills they tend to favor pictures (well into middle and even high school) because that's how they understand it and learned it first. Other areas are beaten to death until you can't understand how some kids still don't get it.

 

Comparing typical ps curricula with typical hs curricula is in no way apples to apples. There are many excellent websites out there that explain the differences. Do you know the name of your ps's math curriculum?

Edited February 24, 2011 by BabyBre

[TracyR]

Threads like this make me wonder why I bother trying to home school...:glare:

 

Then I remember that they don't recognize my oldest's dyslexia, they never follow IEP's or behavior intervention plans and I spend more time at school than I do at home (which would prevent me from getting a job) and they were always out of class and not learning anything anyway.

 

I'd really love to know where these advanced public schools are. They aren't here. And my kids were behind when I pulled them out - they have various and sundry issues - some the schools recognize and some they don't - so we'll just keep on keeping on.

 

(And I pray like you know where that nothing will happen to me before I can get them graduated and out into the world - though we do have contingency plans)

 

I agree. I'd like to know where those schools are myself. They aren't in our area either.

We have one small private school that has an "excelled' curriculum, which honestly has yet to really challenge my daughters ( well except the math) but its actually the better choice in our area. The public school in our area is a total joke.

 

I'm not sure as to how much actually learning goes on in them, but even with minimal instruction at home my daughters have been able to outperform them. Well except when it comes to testing. My two older daughters are just cursed when it comes to that. Their public school friends could out perform them in testing only. I think they inherited it from my husband because he too is extremely intelligent yet cannot test to save his life.

 

Anyways I was overhearing one of the moms at our school and she was saying how her son was taking advanced classes over at our high school, and how he said he liked the high school better because its easier!

Yikes! If our private school has pretty easy curriculum.,I can't imagine how easy it is over at the high school!!!

 

Children in the next city to us can barely read. My sister said how sad it is to see older kids read worse than her own smaller children ( she homeschooled as well up until this year). My sister put them in public school this year and her one daughter is in 2nd grade and can barely read at a 1st grade level. She hasn't progressed since last year!! And an early 1st grade level!

 

Even at our private school I had to almost beg to get my 4yr old's teacher to let her read!! She was drilling and killing her with the alphabet. She started reading back in January and just two days ago she finally handed my daughter a book. After repeatedly telling her that she can read, and that she already knew her alphabet in the beginning of the year!

My 7yr old was held back because her reading was border line 1/2 grade when she tested at the beginning of the year. It had mostly to do with her speech articulation issues she has. But she was right on the cusp of 2nd grade reading and they put her in 1st. At first I was okay with it because I was promised that she would accel her so that she was reading with the 2nd graders in a few months. That has never happened and her teacher tells me that she feels comfortable having her where she is. Ugh! So I've had to try to keep up with reading with her at home because she was starting to forget things. I tell the teacher what I do know and I get treated like I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

So really I'd love to know where all those wonderful schools are. Not where I live. I actually had a friend who said they had a wonderful school system in Michigan( not sure what part of Michigan) and when they moved to PA that was when her homeschooling journey began because even when the school claimed it was good on paper , it was not in reality.

 

My question is " If homeschooling isn't better, or better than what children get in public or private school, then why even bother to homeschool then?

Edited February 24, 2011 by TracyR

[MBM]

In the Chicago area, it really depends on the school. Some are advanced, while others are not. My biggest problem is finding out exactly what they really teach.

[Ester Maria]

I'd bet the kids are drawing pictures, not using algebraic skills to solve those problems.

I wouldn't bet, if we're talking about a good school. It's definitely not an unreasonable skill at that age - and if I recall correctly, my daughters were tested such things, algebraically, at roughly the same age, by a (non-US) school.

[FairProspects]

I wouldn't bet, if we're talking about a good school. It's definitely not an unreasonable skill at that age - and if I recall correctly, my daughters were tested such things, algebraically, at roughly the same age, by a (non-US) school.

 

Perhaps in a non-U.S. school or in a homeschool, but in the U.S. the drawing rather than actually solving is definitely happening. Its part of the reformed math movement that aligns with state tests. The whole thing has very little to do with math and a whole lot to do with test scores and funding.

 

It may be hard for someone outside the system to believe it, but when I investigated the district math program, I found this to be absolutely true.

[Ester Maria]

Perhaps in a non-U.S. school or in a homeschool, but in the U.S. the drawing rather than actually solving is definitely happening. Its part of the reformed math movement that aligns with state tests. The whole thing has very little to do with math and a whole lot to do with test scores and funding.

 

It may be hard for someone outside the system to believe it, but when I investigated the district math program, I found this to be absolutely true.

I definitely hear you and agree with you, as I've seen more than enough nonsense and various pedagogical fads taking over the actual systematic learning, which was one of the key reasons why we decided to homeschool, but I just wanted to point that, from the point of view of cognitive development, it's definitely not unheard of that an average second grade child can solve, and algebraically, examples such as provided by the OP, if properly taught. Now, this last underlined part is the root problem, as in most cases, the pedagogical fads have taken over to such an extent that children are no longer properly taught any field in a lot of schools (we may as well venture to say that in most) and instead of academic institutions schools have turned into prolonged daycares where the actual instruction is secondary to all kinds of social propaganda, "socializing", "creative expression" and alike, but that's a whole other topic already. In short, we agree. ;)

[RahRah]

Good golly, I hate this too. It's so nice to hear I'm not the only one!

 

While I understand it takes awhile to get up to speed and figure out a schedule and the methods that work best for your family and that you'll have off days where nothing gets done (my oldest is only 6 and I have toddler twins, so I get that), when I hear, "Oh, just cook and color and let your kids help you with the housework and read a lot to them and they'll pick up everything they need in good time" I just go CRAZY. (In my head. I'm polite. :D )

 

But a lot of that, I know, is because a lot of the homeschoolers I know are homeschooling for primarily religious reasons, whereas I'm homeschooling primarily (though not entirely) for academic reasons. So there's a big push to take care of "character" before taking care of academics. (But doesn't good character come partly from doing things you don't want to do - like schoolwork - because they're the right thing to do?)

 

Anyway. It makes me nuts. Even if you're home-educating for religious reasons (which I think is perfectly legitimate), you have to actually educate. I hear people say, "oh, it'll all come out in the wash," and I just don't see how that can possibly be true. Learning isn't osmosis. At least, not entirely.

 

You're not the only one!

 

The business I own is one where I interact with many, many homeschoolers each week.....and I see it all the time and hear it so often - the implication, or even explicitly said, that kids will somehow learn it by osmosis - that somehow the academics will just *happen* to get into kids heads.

 

Many of the homeschoolers I see are advanced - but just as many are behind, and some (a few) are really, really behind academically.

 

My oldest is also six and I started homeschooling because he was and remains advanced in math - to place him in K would be, IMO, criminal because he's well into second grade math now and doing well with it. I do not kid myself that he's advanced across the board though - he's a reluctant reader and we have to work at learning to read daily....if he had his way, we'd not do any phonics or reading, forget about writing or spelling....he'd be content to do math and science and history until the cows come home. But, he has to do the work to learn to read & write - my job is to make sure we spend the time doing that because at the end of the day, it matters! I've had other HS'ers tell me to let it go, he'll let me know when he's ready.....UGH!

 

His best friend is in PS - she is in second grade and an incredible reader - definitely reading well above grade level, I'd peg her around 4th-5th grade reading ability. But she can't spell to save herself - the school not only allows, but encourages 'inventive' spelling.....and her math is, at best, late first grade, not mid-year second grade....she can't do any mental math beyond adding to 10, although her math abilities with written math are good, they're not at grade level....and DS is ahead of her, even with me lightening the load for the math to focus on the reading/phonics/writing with him.

 

So...is it the kid or the school? I don't know....if DS was in school, would he be reading better? If his friend were homeschooler, would her math be better? Who knows?

[Ester Maria]

But probably the worst thing is the district never sticks with any of it. They try this, they say after a year or two it isn't working and they move onto the next buzz word. Then the kids get into high school and half of them flunk. And nobody understands why that is. They have spent too many years being everyone's guinea pig for the latest crap curriculum that they didn't learn much.

Agreed 100%. I'm always very glad when I see a case where that's not the case - though there's always a silent voice in my head reminding me that the exception proves the rule...

 

Something, somewhere, went terribly wrong with the public education. I have my own theories on that, but we are definitely reaping the results in the past two generations.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I wonder how many of the school's current students can pass that same test your son was given. Not many, I would guess.

 

A lot of people have jumped in and agreed with this, and I just wonder why. What is the basis for such an overgeneralized statement and ease of agreement so many have had?

[RahRah]

:iagree:

 

I know a woman whose child is the same age as my oldest. When they were both five and six, the mother was often talking about how great her child's school was, and how much they were learning, and how well her child was doing.

 

But around the end of third grade, it was a different tune. Her child was still doing well in school. But the mother was frustrated that the school was throwing concepts at the kids so fast, especially in math class. She said they would have two days on a new concept, have a test the third day, then move on to something else.

 

Another day she told me, "If I had the money, I would absolutely pull her out and send her to a private school."

 

I live in a really good school district, and I constantly hear parents talk about how impressed they are with the schools, and how much the kids are learning, and how advanced it it. But sometimes I wonder: How will that pan out by around seventh and eighth grade?

 

That was my question before we made the decision to HS....after looking at the scores on testing done in 8th grade here, that sealed the deal to HS my DS. While lots of parents feel we have great schools, love the teachers and feel their kids are doing really well in the elementary schools, the testing done at 8th grade betrays the idea the kids are learning well.

 

In our school district:

 

32% of 8th graders scored proficient (at or above grade level) in reading

14% of 8th graders scored proficient (at or above grade level) in math

[OH_Homeschooler]

Good golly, I hate this too. It's so nice to hear I'm not the only one!

 

While I understand it takes awhile to get up to speed and figure out a schedule and the methods that work best for your family and that you'll have off days where nothing gets done (my oldest is only 6 and I have toddler twins, so I get that), when I hear, "Oh, just cook and color and let your kids help you with the housework and read a lot to them and they'll pick up everything they need in good time" I just go CRAZY. (In my head. I'm polite. :D )

 

 

Me too! This may only be tangentially related but something that drives me nuts: It seems like I hear a lot of HSers say (not necessarily here, just in general) that they are so glad they homeschool because their kids love the library! Their kids love to read! Well I have seen many PSed kids who love the library and love reading too. It's one thing to say you homeschool and your kids love to read, but it's another to claim your kids ONLY love to read BECAUSE you homeschool. IMO it shows a real ignorance for how things are actually done by public school families. And it takes away some of the credibility of HSers because you think it makes you so special that your kids like to read?

 

Oh and it drives me nuts when HSers talk about how they get to do civics lessons because they take their kids to Tea Party rallies (really, any rally but that just came to mind)...if the rally is after school hours and there are kids there, why do you assume they are all homeschooled? (Tea Party rallies around here were around 5pm but I did hear homeschoolers talk about how THEY were able to provide this unique civics lesson. Not all the kids at the rally were homeschooled).

 

And I'm starting to think I needed to make another thread! :lol: But one more thing is the whole home ec/consumer ec angle some parents take. Seriously, you don't think public school parents take their kids to the store with them and show them how to spend money wisely? You don't think they have their kids do chores around the house on weekends or after school? It's fine for homeschoolers to do all these things but please do not consider these things to be unique opportunities only you can present BECAUSE you homeschool. These are things that can enhance education but should not replace it entirely.

[Crimson Wife]

X- 4 = 6+2 (isn't it kind of prealgebra?? ) I haven't learned these things before I was 9-10 yrs old !!

 

I'm actually surprised that your child couldn't solve this if he's in Singapore 3A because that kind of problem is quite common. Singapore would teach the student to draw a bar diagram with the top bar labeled "x" and underneath one bar labeled "8" next to a double-headed arrow labeled "4". The student should therefore be able to see that x = 12.

 

FWIW, I see the PS kids at the library all the time doing their math homework and have been very unimpressed. The kids who appear to be about 4th or 5th grade have assignments that are way behind what's in Singapore 4A.

[Farrar]

Having taught in a private middle school that taught some of the kids who fell through the cracks in one of the nation's richest, highest ranked public school systems, I must say I don't think it matters much if the schools are "so advanced" or not. If you fall out of line, they can't take time to help you catch up. And by high school, a shocking number of kids have fallen out of line and have huge gaps. Even for some of the really "smart kids" - I found that their skills were surprisingly shaky when they encountered deeper questions about what they were reading or writing. What's the point of building the tallest tower on the block if it doesn't have a solid foundation?

[Wildiris]

Good public schools are doing a lot more than than one would guess from reading the stereotypical characterizations than are often made on this forum.

 

Many people are absolutely kidding themselves.

 

Bill

:iagree:I do CA STAR tests with my kids. I almost fell over when I saw what both my 2nd and 8th grade girls needed to know this year. I consider my older DD a good writer, but she is places no better than the 50th percentile on the standardized writing portion of the test. I believe some home school parents are kidding themselves when they think public schools do a poor job of educating. Sometimes I read about what home school parents do at home and I feel they are doing a poor job of educating. The standards of excellence are rising. The math question the original poster showed is the same type of question that I am finding on the CA STAR for my DD in 2nd grade. It isn't unusual.

[Crimson Wife]

PS expects more along the lines of inference than most homeschool cirricula requires. TWTM places no emphasis on inference, yet this is probably the single most important skill on the NJ ASK Language Arts tests (state test) at all levels. Inference means picking up on meaning within text that's not necessarily directly stated. While the schools focus on this and explicitly teach it early, I don't know that any homeschool kid would have any difficultly developing inference ability once taught specifically. None of the homeschool curricula I've seen even address it. SWB doesn't address it until Rhetoric stage.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

My DD is a very advanced reader but has encountered difficulty with inference questions on standardized tests she has taken. So this semester she's working through a reading comprehension workbook from Curriculum Associates specifically designed to teach this skill. Boring as anything but she's going to be continuing to encounter those kinds of questions on tests so I figured it would be a good idea to do one lesson per week out of the test prep book.

[Virg]

Take this for what it is worth. I have a bias against skipping. My parents put me into first instead of K but I tested into 2nd when I was 5. I was bored out of my mind all the way through school. The issue came in when everyone else hit puberty. I hadn't yet and like one PP said I was very mature but my interests weren't. I was socially ostracized. I became depressed and had emotional trouble in HS. Not to mention I was a 13 year old girl in advanced classes in HS with 18 year old boys. Not a good combination. I know this wouldn't be true for all students and some would do better. My parents were horrified though, I was such a leader with a strong personality they NEVER expected I would struggle like that emotionally. We all regret me ever skipping. My parents tell everyone who will listen, get a tutor, homeschool, do anything else but don't skip a grade.

 

FWIW I am sure many kids would do fine and this is just my 2 cents. :)

[Veritaserum]

I skipped a grade in high school and I'm very glad I did. It meant that I was 17 for my whole first semester of college, but staying in high school for another year would have been a pointless waste of time. I was put ahead for some subjects in elementay school. Perhaps that might be an option for the OP's son if she doesn't feel good about skipping outright.

[Crimson Wife]

Take this for what it is worth. I have a bias against skipping. My parents put me into first instead of K but I tested into 2nd when I was 5. I was bored out of my mind all the way through school. The issue came in when everyone else hit puberty. I hadn't yet and like one PP said I was very mature but my interests weren't. I was socially ostracized. I became depressed and had emotional trouble in HS.

 

I had the opposite problem. My birthday is in January back when the cutoff was 12/31. I was the oldest kid except for those who had repeated a year. The school wanted to skip me a year when I moved from private to public school in 3rd but my parents refused out of concern that I'd have difficulties socially. Big mistake because I hit puberty on the early side and because I was old for my grade, that put me 18 months ahead of the norm for girls in my class. I had to endure horrendous s*xual harassment from the boys and ostracism from the girls. Had I been skipped, I still would've been a little ahead of the curve but not obviously so.

[Wildiris]

Having taught in a private middle school that taught some of the kids who fell through the cracks in one of the nation's richest, highest ranked public school systems, I must say I don't think it matters much if the schools are "so advanced" or not. If you fall out of line, they can't take time to help you catch up. And by high school, a shocking number of kids have fallen out of line and have huge gaps. Even for some of the really "smart kids" - I found that their skills were surprisingly shaky when they encountered deeper questions about what they were reading or writing. What's the point of building the tallest tower on the block if it doesn't have a solid foundation?

 

What Farrawilliams describes is similar to what my DD~13 experienced when she toured high schools in southern CA. She loved the $$$$$ private school when compared to the U.S News & World Report's top ranking public high school she toured. The public school had numbers to prove just how good it is and a large number of Merit Scholars too, but when it came to teaching if a student didn't get "it" in the first presentation there wasn't a second chance. The class moved forward. At the private school time was taken to ensure all students understood material being presented, and the classes were structured such that if a student needed extra help it was there. I suppose that accounts for the hefty price tag.

[Lostinabook]

Well I have seen many PSed kids who love the library and love reading too. It's one thing to say you homeschool and your kids love to read, but it's another to claim your kids ONLY love to read BECAUSE you homeschool.

 

Well, I would never say that my kids love to read just because they're homeschooled. After all I went to public school & I LOVED to read & went to the library weekly! However, I used to be a librarian & I very, very rarely saw ps kids there. The kids from the local Catholic school were there a lot, but not ps kids. I also remember a teacher in high school telling us to go to the library to get something or another & several kids asking where the library was!

 

ETA: Forgot to add that my point is that the person who said this might have had the same library experiences as I--which may have led to her saying what she said.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Lostinabook
clarification

[Renee in NC]

Perhaps in a non-U.S. school or in a homeschool, but in the U.S. the drawing rather than actually solving is definitely happening. Its part of the reformed math movement that aligns with state tests. The whole thing has very little to do with math and a whole lot to do with test scores and funding.

 

It may be hard for someone outside the system to believe it, but when I investigated the district math program, I found this to be absolutely true.

 

Singapore teaches the bar diagrams to solve algebraic problems without algebra, doesn't it?

[Lilymax]

I am convinced that there are gaps in every child's education, public, private or home schooled. But at least as a homeschooling parent, I get to choose which gaps exist and what to do about it.

[amey311]

I just asked my 7.5 year old if he could solve the "algebra" question (x-4=6+2). He looked at it for a couple seconds and said, "12." When I asked him to explain what he did, he said, "6+2 = 8 and 8+4 = 12, so the answer is 12."

 

If he were in public school he'd possibly be in 1st grade (by his birthday, I think) or 2nd grade. He's using MUS Delta right now and is about 1/3 of the way thru. I will admit that I've used the term "algebra" with him occasionally when he does problems that use letters, because MUS starts that early with things like 3+B=7. I didn't mention that this problem was algebra.

 

Both of my boys are bigger fans of math than other things, but my 7 year old is a decent writer, too. Writing is much harder for my 10 year old, but WWE is helping that. He would definitely be a remedial writing student in public school.

[Spy Car]

Spy Car...please give your opinion on how to determine whether your local ps are "good public schools". Ours are supposedly highly rated, but I'm looking for concrete ways to rate them. This thread has me depressed, frankly, that I'm part of that disillusioned group that thinks their kids are getting a better education at home :( If my dc can get a better education at our local school then I'm happy to look into that.

 

You ought not be depressed. A dedicated parent can give their child an outstanding education at home. Even "excellent" schools (my son attends one) are hard put to teach the depth of math, grammar, history, and writing that those implementing a WTM type education can offer. We work at home (quite a bit) because we want that standard of education ourselves.

 

But I know what goes on because I try (as much as I'm able) to volunteer time in the classroom. I was gobsmacked last year in Kindergaten. My son came in "well-prepped". In some sence he didn't need the K program academically (or so I thought) but wow! The richness of that experience blew my mind. They had a great teacher, who had lots of helpers (including parent volunteers) and the children had fun-filled enriching days. I was exhausted just looking at all the work and prep that went into a day, and I thought I was pretty diligent. But there is no way I could have replicated this at home.

 

First Grade is much the same. I'm impressed.

 

I do understand that many public schools are not "excellent" or even good, and maybe truly awful places. I wish that were not the case. And I can see how even parents with the choice of an excellent public school might choose home education instead. There are some very sound reasons for doing so. My child would not get the kind of education I desired for him if I left it to the public schools alone, and our school is about as good a school as one could hope to have.

 

If it makes anyone feel better the teacher who is generally considered the "shining star" at our school (which is filled with a faculty that has unviersal respect) home educates (with his wife) his own children. And (at least to me) he speaks of trying to make his classroom like a bit of "home-school" at school, and you can see it in the classroom.

 

One does not need to be against one form of education to validate ones own choice. A good education can come in many forms and mean different things to different people. I guess LL hit it on the head when she alluded to comments like: "don't worry about it, anything you do at home is better than what they would get at public school." These comments are as preposerous as comments (that home-schoolers hate) that suggest home schoolered kids are little more than truants. It just ain't so. Not all the time anyway.

 

Anyway, I'm not trying to cause anyone "anxiety." I do understand that as a home educator it is awfully easy to be on the defensive or second guess ones self. If it helps I'm on this forum so I can be to be more like some of you, and to help ensure that my child has the same depth of education that many of you are providing for your children. KWIM?

 

Best wishes!

 

Bill

Edited February 24, 2011 by Spy Car

[FaithManor]

Spycar,

 

I wrote a post in the "More Public School Surprises" thread in which I mentioned your view. I was trying to explain how difficult it is to make any generalization or "paint with a wide brush" educational choices. Making comparisons is difficult because there are too many variables.

 

You might be interested in bopping over there and taking a look. :D I really respect your opinion on the subject.

 

Faith

[Spy Car]

Spycar,

 

I wrote a post in the "More Public School Surprises" thread in which I mentioned your view. I was trying to explain how difficult it is to make any generalization or "paint with a wide brush" educational choices. Making comparisons is difficult because there are too many variables.

 

You might be interested in bopping over there and taking a look. :D I really respect your opinion on the subject.

 

Faith

 

Off to look :001_smile:

 

Bill

[Britomart]

My oldest is also six and I started homeschooling because he was and remains advanced in math - to place him in K would be, IMO, criminal because he's well into second grade math now and doing well with it. I do not kid myself that he's advanced across the board though - he's a reluctant reader and we have to work at learning to read daily....if he had his way, we'd not do any phonics or reading, forget about writing or spelling....he'd be content to do math and science and history until the cows come home. But, he has to do the work to learn to read & write - my job is to make sure we spend the time doing that because at the end of the day, it matters! I've had other HS'ers tell me to let it go, he'll let me know when he's ready.....UGH!

 

Yep. I think you're right on the money. Part of our job is evaluating how our kids are doing every once in a while, and concentrating on their areas of weakness when we need to. For instance, my first grader has just taken off in her reading abilities; it's delightful to watch her and I love it. But, at the same time, I've realized that she's behind on her penmanship: a six-year-old girl should be able to write more neatly than she does. So we're doing some extra work there to get her caught up.

 

Is it tempting to just concentrate on reading right now (i.e., on the area where she's excelling)? Yes! It'd be a lot more fun that making her do extra work on correct letter formation. But would it be fair to her to ignore her weak areas? No. And I think that's the temptation we have to resist: the temptation to ignore the hard stuff. If we can resist that temptation, I think we have every chance of giving our children an excellent education at home.

[Britomart]

And I'm starting to think I needed to make another thread! :lol: But one more thing is the whole home ec/consumer ec angle some parents take. Seriously, you don't think public school parents take their kids to the store with them and show them how to spend money wisely? You don't think they have their kids do chores around the house on weekends or after school? It's fine for homeschoolers to do all these things but please do not consider these things to be unique opportunities only you can present BECAUSE you homeschool. These are things that can enhance education but should not replace it entirely.

 

Preach it! I love homeschooling, but I went to public school all through elementary and high school, and I know that good parents can make just about any school situation work for their kids because my parents did it for me. (Not that anecdote equals evidence, but it does show that it's possible.)

 

Of course if you homeschool, domestic life and academic life are going to become intertwined. But I think if you lose the ability to separate the two in your own mind, you lose the ability to think clearly about either one. You lose the ability to evaluate your child's education. In practice, they happen together. But you have to be able to think about education and domestic life separately or both suffer.

[Perry]

Preach it! I love homeschooling, but I went to public school all through elementary and high school, and I know that good parents can make just about any school situation work for their kids because my parents did it for me. (Not that anecdote equals evidence, but it does show that it's possible.)

I don't know, I think a bad school can do a lot of damage, even when the parents are involved and "good".

 

And what about the parents who aren't "good" parents? Their kids are the ones who desperately need good schools, because it might be their only chance for success.

 

There are certainly schools doing a fantastic job. Unfortunately, I do not believe they are the norm.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I don't know, I think a bad school can do a lot of damage, even when the parents are involved and "good".

 

And what about the parents who aren't "good" parents? Their kids are the ones who desperately need good schools, because it might be their only chance for success.

 

There are certainly schools doing a fantastic job. Unfortunately, I do not believe they are the norm.

 

I think when a homeschooling parent is bad, the harm she can do can be so much worse than the damage a school can do. And no, I do not believe bad homeschoolers are the norm. BUT a bad one who is doing it for all the wrong reasons has absolutely no accountability to anyone. A student in a bad public school is likely to come across at least one teacher who really cares on occasion. The school is placed under scrutiny when it is not meeting academic standards and is pushed to become better. Kids can be transferred to other schools if necessary. But what hope does a kid have when mom is teacher and mom doesn't actually care one bit about educating her child?

[Britomart]

I don't know, I think a bad school can do a lot of damage, even when the parents are involved and "good".

 

And what about the parents who aren't "good" parents? Their kids are the ones who desperately need good schools, because it might be their only chance for success.

 

Yes, that's why I said almost any school situation. I know there are some that are too terrible to overcome.

 

And, you're also right that there are kids that desperately need good schools. I have an acquaintance who said that attending a good public school basically saved her life (due to bad home situation).

 

What I'm trying to say is that a middling-to-poor (but not abusive) public school situation can be redeemed by good parenting. The good parents can teach their kids to make the best possible use of what is there, and supplement where needed.

[Erica in PA]

In my experience, schools today tend to expect a lot, sometimes more than what is appropriate, of elementary school students, and then not nearly enough of high school students. Elementary school students are often expected to do logic stage work.... and high school students aren't expected to do much more than logic stage work either. The effect of this is that many elementary school kids don't have a solid foundation of the basics, and then continue to do just more of the same type of work (i.e. read a chapter in a textbook and answer the questions at the end of the chapter) through all twelve years of their schooling. Having elementary kids doing logic stage work doesn't necessarily mean they are being well-educated-- and can mean the opposite.

[mommymilkies]

I am convinced that there are gaps in every child's education, public, private or home schooled. But at least as a homeschooling parent, I get to choose which gaps exist and what to do about it.

 

Exactly! Dh and I were both in public school. Dh had an amazing GPA and graduated with a Honors MS in Chemistry. But he's barely literate. He struggles with even grade school books to read to our children. It's not a LD, he admits he faked his way through school. Learning how to take a test and make it look like you know the material is a skill many people I know have mastered without knowing any of the material. The public schools I went to, worked in, and sent my oldest to K were just horrible. One is an award winning school in this state and I know for a fact that all they do (having worked in the classes) is teach to the test. Now, there are some good schools. My brother goes to a wonderful ps in another state. But here they are just awful. Just plain awful. We know many of the kids here who attend from soccer, friends, etc. and they struggle so hard. Even my dd being "behind" in math is way ahead of all of her peers. We also live nowhere near gifted programs, charter schools, specialty (Montessori, etc.) schools. Our HS here had to cut band because of funding last year, even.

 

There are always kids that succeed no matter what. And those with great parents who really help them out. But overall, here, I would have to say it's not so advanced here.

Edited February 24, 2011 by mommymilkies

[LizzyBee]

I think there is a lot of variation.

 

My older kids started out in ps. Kids in kindergarten were supposed to learn to compose and write 3 sentences indendently. My oldest was writing and illustrating her own books in kindergarten, so we were glad our local ps had an academic K rather than a play K.

 

OTOH, my middle dd simply was not ready for that in K. Her teacher turned it into a power struggle and punished my dd repeatedly. She absolutely refused to consider the possibility that my dd was not ready to integrate the twelve separate brain skills that are required in order to compose and write at the same time. If I had understood the extent of what was going on, I would pulled dd out mid-year rather than waiting until the summer.

 

So they had this standard of kids learning to write in kindergarten. But quality? One day when I was in the classroom, a boy wrote one beautiful sentence. The teacher said he should write three short sentences instead. I wanted to ask wth is the matter with you????????????? You've got a kid who can actually write well and you want to un-do that? Then in first or second grade, his teacher will teach the kids how to combine short, choppy sentences. The ones they learned to write in K. :001_huh:

 

While homeschooling, during elementary school, my kids absolutely would not meet the standards of the public school. But meeting their standards is not my goal. I want to go slow and lay a solid foundation so that my kids ultimately will exceed the ps standards in the later years. I seriously ramped up my expectations at about 6-7th grade.

 

I thought we would homeschool through high school, but that has not happened with my older two. They attend a public school, but it's a college prep charter school. I have to say that I think they are accomplishing more than we would at home. My jr. has become an excellent writer and her critical thinking skills have developed beautifully. She has been recommended for 5 AP classes next year and plans to take all 5 of them. My middle dd has mild LDs and I was very concerned about her ability to do well in ps, but she has maintained As and Bs all year.

 

OTOH, my oldest dd's boyfriend attends a school that is not a charter school, and even though he is taking some AP classes, his mom is not at all impressed with the school. His sister attends the same high school as my girls, and their mom says that she is a C student, but could easily be a A student at the regular h.s. But she'd rather M. be a C student at a good school than an A student at a mediocre h.s. And the two regular high schools in our county are much worse. There is no way we'd send our kids to either of them.

Edited February 24, 2011 by LizzyBee

[LizzyBee]

I had the opposite problem. My birthday is in January back when the cutoff was 12/31. I was the oldest kid except for those who had repeated a year. The school wanted to skip me a year when I moved from private to public school in 3rd but my parents refused out of concern that I'd have difficulties socially. Big mistake because I hit puberty on the early side and because I was old for my grade, that put me 18 months ahead of the norm for girls in my class. I had to endure horrendous s*xual harassment from the boys and ostracism from the girls. Had I been skipped, I still would've been a little ahead of the curve but not obviously so.

 

I also have a January birthday and went to school when the cutoff was 12/31. I was so bored in my grade, but there was no option to move up. However, my school had an early graduation option in which I combined my junior and senior years of high school. I had just enough credits to graduate, and I started college a year early. It was a good decision that I've never regretted.

[RamonaQ]

I agree on both points. I once saw a 5th grader at ballet doing her basic division problems with a calculator. :001_huh:

 

Maybe she had a learning disability? I think it is difficult to ascertain what is going on based on small sample sizes.

[mommymilkies]

Maybe she had a learning disability? I think it is difficult to ascertain what is going on based on small sample sizes.

 

Sounds like me. It wasn't until college that I really figured out division. And I went from age 4-18 through public school as an honors student. No learning disability, just really bad teaching and nobody bothering to help me out.

[mom2scouts]

I agree on both points. I once saw a 5th grader at ballet doing her basic division problems with a calculator. :001_huh:

 

That doesn't surprise me at all. Some of the new PS math programs allow students to use calculators in the very early years. My son was in PS first grade last year and, despite getting excellent math grades, he didn't know even the most basic math facts. Our school system uses TERC Investigations and it encourages drawing pictures instead of learning traditional algorithms.

[FriedClams]

I will be very interested in the OP's opinions in 6 weeks.

 

Lots of people own TOG, who never use it. Doesn't do much on the shelf.

 

High standards are great - if they are being met.

 

The only curriculum that works is the one being used.

[Sahamamama]

Threads like this make me wonder why I bother trying to home school...:glare:

 

Then I remember that they don't recognize my oldest's dyslexia, they never follow IEP's or behavior intervention plans and I spend more time at school than I do at home (which would prevent me from getting a job) and they were always out of class and not learning anything anyway.

 

I'd really love to know where these advanced public schools are. They aren't here. And my kids were behind when I pulled them out - they have various and sundry issues - some the schools recognize and some they don't - so we'll just keep on keeping on.

 

 

:iagree: They are not here, either. They really aren't. :tongue_smilie: