Our minister just told my dh that he should find another place to worship, or ....

[Janie]

he would file a complaint with Presbytery (PCUSA).

 

Can you believe it?

 

I'm shocked.

 

Since last year, dh has been serving as a pulpit supply in another church. So it's not like we've been there much. I guess we've not been there six times since March. And the last time was the end of November.

 

The minister and dh have never (in the four years he has been there) seen eye to eye on some things, but you don't tell someone, threaten actually, to leave the church.

 

I tried to post the whole story but it was too long.

 

Have you ever in your life heard of such? This man is mid-50s, been here four years, previously spent 11 years as Army chaplain. I think he's lost his mind.

 

Just had to get this off my chest.

[Jyniffrec]

That is very unusual. Did something spark the comment?

[SonshineLearner]

I think your husband should respectfully, calmly contact the church authorities himself. That's just crazy. Sounds like he feels unsure of himself.

[BigMamaBird]

I think your husband should respectfully, calmly contact the church authorities himself. That's just crazy. Sounds like he feels unsure of himself.

 

:iagree: A very wise suggestion.

[Sophia]

Yes, I have heard of such a thing but it's always been a process involving an elder board.

I guess if the pastor is going to file a complaint that means your dh could also do so?

Is he upset about attendance?

[Blueridge]

Janie, I am so very sorry! :grouphug:

[lisamarie]

The only reason is because you have missed a few services over the last year? If that were the case, we'd have been kicked out of our church a long time ago. We miss more than we attend because we are either out of town or sick, sick, sick. We go when we can, but the sickies have hit us hard since the fall.

 

I would contact the person over him and complain. That just doesn't seem right. Unless your DH is involved in some serious sin and is unrepentant, kicking him out seems very wrong.

[RegGuheert]

Unbelievable! (This from someone who sometimes thinks ministers are overly averse to challenging people in their church.)

[Laurie4b]

What was the reason he was told to leave?

 

I've never heard anything like it. We don't attend PCUSA, but have friends who do and a friend who is a pastor of a PCUSA church. Can't imagine that happening there.

[AngelBee]

:grouphug: That is really odd.

[JessReplanted]

My husband is a pastor, and honestly, given the right circumstances, he would tell someone that he needs to leave the church (I don't know about threatening to call a governing body - that seems pretty extreme).

[Mary in VA]

We're not PUSA, but are PCA, but don't the elders have to meet over something like this? Then would meet with your husband to discuss the issue. There should be counseling if necessary. It seems totally wrong that the pastor out of the blue and alone can do something like this. Did he give a reason? This is not the way I've seen church discipline work at all and I can't believe PUSA is set up that differently from PCA.

 

Mary

[Janie]

Although we are members, and rather active until the last couple of years, dh has been the pulpit supply since March for another little church in our denomination. We've only been back for probably six times and the last was in November, so it's not like we are even THERE!

 

Dh rotated off the session at the end of December, so again, it's not like he going to be seeing him in session meetings.

 

The minister accused dh of being divisive and "the whole church thinks he should go." Either the congregation is completely hypocritical or this minister is off his rocker. We have friends there (who we've not talked to ... yet... about this) who have never given any indication that they feel that way. I wonder what they would have to say about his sweeping generalization of "the whole church"?

 

And about his threat to complain to presbytery, if he knew the Book of Order, he'd know that this was would be a sessional complaint, not a presbytery complaint.

 

I don't know why it's come up now unless he's just been stewing over something and it's come to blows.

 

We've not felt he's been a faithful minister in his four years for different reasons. Primarily, his six to seven minute sermons and pushing many of his responsibilities off on other people. But we've not "threatened to complain to Presbytery" about him. Go figure.

 

I wonder if things are falling apart for him and he's looking for a scapegoat. Even though we aren't even there!

 

Baffled.

[Jyniffrec]

If our family were in the situation we would start writing down every encounter having to do with the church leaders.

 

We both come from pastor's families. I will have to ask dh's parents and my family if they have ever had to do this.

[Janie]

Mary, dh was a PCA pastor for fifteen years before we moved. So we're very familiar with the governmental structure. As far as we know right now, he is acting alone. He did not say he was calling on behalf of the session. Strange.

[JessReplanted]

I'm sorry. It sounds so shady.. This guy could just be jealous of your husband, or he could be trying to blame him for things that he hasn't done. Have you talked to any of the other church leaders (Elders)? I'm sorry you are going through this. :grouphug:

[Mary in VA]

I was posting the same time as you added more info. Couldn't your husband speak to the session about this? Even if you don't want to stay, this just seems like an abuse of authority. I haven't been PCA long enough to know all the ins and outs, but the session has to agree to this, don't they?

 

Mary

[Mama2Many4]

This is completely mind boggling to me! I'm Catholic, but in our faith you would have to do something pretty severe to be excommunicated.

[simka2]

You've gotten some good advice. It definately sounds like your pastor is threatened by your dh. This probly became a bigger deal when your dh began filling in at the other church. In a way it painted a target on him and labeled him as a viable threat.

 

Document and do what you can with a humble and calm spirit. That doesn't mean doormat. This man sounds like a bully (a very insecure one) that needs to be be confidently stood up to.

 

Blessings to you as you walk this difficult path.

 

Also, you might want to check out this book...http://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Power-Spiritual-Abuse-Manipulation/dp/0764201379/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295146717&sr=1-1

[6packofun]

I don't know any details so it's hard to make a judgment on this, but to me it seems over the top. To ask someone with differing views that clash with the denomination not to *teach* or be in leadership is one thing, but just not to worship there at all seems harsh.

[FO4UR]

I'm thinking the pastor may be making him a scapegoat *because* he's not there.

 

I'd be asking for meetings with the pastor and a 3rd party (documented) detailing every single issue at hand. Calling someone divisive is...slanderous...unless/until there is evidence to back it up.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Have people been leaving your church to hear your dh in his pulpit supply ministry? That's the only thing I could think of that might be construed as divisive - and even then I personally would not have a problem with it.

[sbgrace]

I'm sorry. That would be upsetting to me for sure and I would certainly wonder what's being said/done behind the scenes.

 

You said you and your husband do have issues with the minister. Do others? Your friends you mentioned? Do you talk with others about those issues? I guess I'm wondering what's going on in the church--if there is division and discontent brewing. The minister said divisive. That makes me think there are bigger issues in the congregation and he must be assuming (hoping perhaps or has convinced himself!) your husband is part of that in some way--even if that judgment is misplaced. Is that possible? Or are people leaving that church to be with the congregation your husband is leading perhaps?

 

Sounds yucky. It sounds like you're hardly there and there is the other church and certainly other ways to stay in contact with friends. Why not leave in peace? It's this sort of thing that churches split or are damaged by. Your minister's actions may well be wrong (sounds like it from your post) but the way you guys respond to this is going to have an impact on the church. I've seen people leave badly in these situations and whole bunches come with them or it takes years and another minister or two to get a church back to health. It may take that anyway if there is a lot going on. But I'd encourage you guys to think of how God would have you respond in terms of others, your attitudes, reaction to the minister, etc.

Edited January 16, 2011 by sbgrace

[kalanamak]

 

We've not felt he's been a faithful minister in his four years for different reasons. Primarily, his six to seven minute sermons and pushing many of his responsibilities off on other people.

 

 

Check his trash for liquor bottles. Stranger things have happened.

[WiseOwlKnits]

I'm PCUSA and I can't imagine this happening in our church. If it did, it would have to come from the session, not just from the minister. And you say your DH just rotated off of the session in Dec? In every PCUSA church I've been in, Elder is a position that's nominated and voted on by a nominating committee. So I can't imagine how the church as a whole could be upset with him if he's been on the session. And if they were, I would have expected it to come out instances before this.

 

I would be talk to other friends off the radar and see what they think. And then I would consider approaching the session if there are still Elders on it that you feel you can talk to/trust and tell them what you were told.

 

I'm sorry that you're going through this. :(

[Random]

If it were me, I would just leave in peace. I would make sure the minister knows I love him and my family would be praying for him. I'd also make a point to thank him for his service and let him know that he can call anytime he needs something. I would (hopefully) do my best to convey a humble and loving attitude.

 

So sorry for your heartache. :grouphug: It really, really, really stinks to be slandered.

 

And then, do pray for this minister, and for the church body he oversees. Sounds like it would be a difficult church to attend.

[cindergretta]

I had some issues with my church. (Long story and don't want to derail, so I will try to be as brief as possible...)

 

We have attended our church for almost 8 years. For the last couple, things have felt "off" for us. After a major "issue" surrounding VBS last summer (I was director) my family decided to "take a break." We didn't go to church for about 4 months. During that time, people called us. Other families had had issues very similar to ours. Then one lady told me to contact another lady, no longer with our church. This lady, (we'll call her M) was so very involved in the church life. She was one of those calm, spiritual people who are just flat - out loving, kwim? Dh and I were shocked, literally shocked, a couple of years ago when we were told that she and her family were no longer with the church. But I didn't feel it was m business to "pry." So anyway, at this other lady's prompting, I called M. She told me the whole story. :( The bottom line, she and the priest didn't see eye - to -eye on some issues but she honestly felt like everyone got along anyway. She was "asked" (really told) to step away from the ministries in which she served and to just attend church. She was so very hurt, but complied. Then we had a death in the church and the family requested M be an acolyte for the memorial service. So she did. The following Friday (the priest isn't in on Fridays) she was called in for a "meeting" and told that she and her family should leave and worship elsewhere. She was told that the priest wasn't comfortable with her being in the church and so on and so forth. She was gobsmacked and devastated. :( She literally had *no* idea that he felt that way and that no one had ever talked with her about anything.

 

I think it was wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG! She and her family are with another church now but still ache for and miss our church. The body had no idea about any of this. And they were well loved within the church family. Only the "powers that be" knew what was up and called the shots.

 

Churches can be wonderful families and supports but they can also cause more hurt and pain and damage than one can possibly imagine. :(

 

I'm so sorry your family is going through this. I really am. :grouphug:

[Susan C.]

Church problems, yuck!

 

I have been through more church situations..... in fact, in my young adult days, a bunch of us collectively left a church because shady stuff was going on, and a friend coined the term "VCW" meaning Veterans of Church Wars.

 

Now solidly in middle age and not wanting to mess with such things, I only go where I am loved. Luckily we have a wonderful church now. So, for me, I would definitely move on, but I realize it may be more complicated than that.

 

Maybe this pastor is on the way out and you can sit out for awhile until he is gone....

 

So sorry you have to do through this. Churches are supposed to be a place where you get encouragement...

[Sonshine]

I wonder if he is worried about losing his position and your husband getting it. Since your husband does pulpit supply I assume he may be qualified.

[....]

Get the heck out of there while you can. :glare: Seriously. Leave a trail of smoke and don't look back. Church problems are disgusting. I saw so much *&^ as a kid that if I even "suspect" something's going on, I hit EJECT! EJECT! :D

 

Good thing this forum's anonymous, eh? :tongue_smilie:

[Janie]

He's decided to do nothing.

 

Since we only have the opportunity to worship with "our" home congregation every 5th Sunday beginning in May, we just plain won't be there. Dh said he plans to go to "our" church then as usual. And leave the ball in the minister's court. He said that the minister will have to be the one to initiate the next (if there is one) move.

 

The church he supplies is in another county and nobody from "our" church comes there. And since dh is off of the session, he will not be involved in any meetings at all. In other words, out of current circumstances, we are taken out of the picture.

 

Dh said he considered talking to another elder on the session who has been nothing but supportive of dh (at least to his face--with all that's happened, you wonder how much is said behind your back, but you have to go with what you actually know). But dh has decided against that for now. Even though the minister said "everyone is the church," we know that just has to be an outright exaggeration because it is highly unlikely that this minister has canvased the congregation.

 

Dh said that there are only four times that he has differed with the minister and that he did so legitimately. Two times were about a violation of the Book of Order, once when he was asked to do one of the tasks the minister was to do himself, and another when he was asked point-blank about his opinion. The last he was not going to say anything about until another elder asked him for his opinion which he could either lie about or answer honestly. He chose the latter.

 

Choosing to sit on it and remain quiet about it is not going to be easy for me. But at least we won't be going there until at least May, and then only one Sunday. His character makes it easier for him to sit on it. I want to strike out. But I'll have to honor dh's wishes.

 

Both of us are still completely baffled because it came so much out of the blue. But I suspect that things aren't going well for him within the church and he needs a scapegoat. One reason I think things aren't going well for him is his 6-7 minute sermons (hard to believe, I know, but it's true), plus the fact that in this older congregation, there have been a high number of deaths in his four years. In all but one, maybe two, he has not been asked to preach the funeral. He's been part of the service, but only did a prayer.

 

I have enough going on with school to keep my mind occupied there rather than mulling over this. And I think in the Lord's providence, he's put us physically away from "our" church for the time being. Still, being raked through the mud is difficult to deal with. Even not guilty of things (and you never deal with any issue in perfect appropriateness), you still come but dirt on you when you're raked through the mud.

 

Here's to an interesting year. :confused:

[Carol in Cal.]

The truth always comes out.

You don't have to bring it out yourself.

You can have dignity in this situation by enduring and being yourself and not stooping to someone else's level.

This pastor sounds like he is a bit desperate. That is never a good stance. He will either change (which would be good) or fail (which would be a slow and difficult thing for the parish, but would probably work out OK in the end).

What serves God best in this situation? Clinging to both kindness and truth and being both candid (if asked) and humble.

[SonshineLearner]

One reason I think things aren't going well for him is his 6-7 minute sermons (hard to believe, I know, but it's true),

 

In seminary, I think that a "good sermon" not too long or too short :) was considered ... I think.... 12-17 minutes.... Not have that much... and I suppose you could study more... have more... and you needed to more to the point and concise.... (When My dad studied in Seminary.. not me :))

 

 

I've never heard of a pastor not having enough to say.... :D

[Chris in VA]

Check his trash for liquor bottles. Stranger things have happened.

 

This happened to us--the priest was a closet alcoholic and ended up being forced to leave.

 

Weird accusations, limited visiting, short sermons (tho that didn't occur in our situation), not keeping records of his communion calls/visits...all were symptoms of a much, much larger problem.

:grouphug:

[Jennifer3141]

I got a minister fired once. Yep. Boy, was that one fun!!

 

We had a woman in our church who had some money issues in that she had a hard time living on her DH's salary.

 

I didn't particularly care for the woman. She was a bit gossipy but mostly harmless. She had some food issues too and you did NOT get between her and the dessert tray ever but that was about it.

 

But she was just an ordinary, high school educated country woman.

 

One day, she apparently took money out of the women's group offering basket.

 

Yes. I get that that is awful. Stupid. Selfish. Etc. etc.

 

However, our minister threw her out of the church and her 4 year old DD and her DH. He began the process of formally excommunicating her. For sinning.

 

Ok. At this point I paused.

 

She took about $25. I never really knew what for. I never really cared. It could have been food for her child. It could have been for scrapbooking supplies (she was insane for that stuff).

 

But the banishment of a human who sins kinda struck me as a wee bit ludricious. I asked the minister if there wasn't some more gentle way to reprimand the woman (and her rather innocent family) and he said there wasn't.

 

I thought some more about it. And then a few days later, I picked up the phone to a bigger Wesleyan church in our area and I asked how to reach a grand poohbah in the church. Their minister called me back several hours later and I explained what was going on.

 

So a church council member called me and came over to discuss the situation. They thought my opinion was pretty much unbiased because I didn't care for the woman that much and I thought the minster was ok but not a superstar or anything. The minister didn't bring me closer to god but he didn't drive me away either, kwim? He was just an average kind of guy.

 

The council did its own investigation and the minister ended up getting fired. This was a small country church so the woman and her extended family were pretty happy. The little church did end up collapsing eventually.

 

I just could not reconcile throwing someone out of church who so obviously needed guidance.

 

The minister went back to selling used cars (I kid you not!) and then supposedly went down south and became a fire and brimstone pastor in a snake worshipping kind of group.

 

I didn't like getting involved in everything. The woman came to me because she knew I'd speak up. And the church was mostly older people who didn't want to rock the boat but didn't like where the whole thing had gone.

 

What made me pick up the phone was imagining that the money was Jesus.' When I tried to imagine what his reponse to the situation would have been, I just imagined him reaching into his wallet and giving her $25 more.

 

The minster argued that if he allowed the woman to go unpunished, then everyone would simply take money from the collection plate on Sunday instead of putting it IN it. I believed in the better part of humans. (That and I hoped that the kind of people who would take money from a collection plate would sleep in on Sunday mornings!!!)

 

I disagreed when I realized that if there really had been a Jesus and he was anything like the bible portrayed him, he'd give the woman another $25 or a gift card to Meijer's or whatnot.

 

And then I realized that ministers can make mistakes. People can get so wrapped up in speaking, that they forget to listen. I frequently reread to myself whatever I've read aloud to the kids.

 

So if this is weighing on you and you believe in your heart that this is the right thing to do for the right reasons, speak up.

 

I'm an agnostic mostly now with some pagan leanings. But if there is a god, then your conscience and your soul are probably in more direct communion with him/her than you know. Follow it.

 

Jen

[OnTheBrink]

I have found in situations such at this, when things seem to be coming from left field and you're bewildered about what the heck is going on, it's sometimes best to not do anything directly. When someone's acting insane, sometimes if you give them enough rope, they'll end up hanging themselves (not literally!).

 

I'd go on as regular and see what this guy does. Naturally, I'd call upon whatever your church leaders/government is to protect yourself if necessary, but sometimes not reacting is the best reaction to ludicrous accusations and behaviors.

[Janie]

Exactly what my dh said, Michelle! Er, SolaMichella!

[Tammyla]

:grouphug:I just want to say how sorry I am too.

[mcconnellboys]

I've never, ever heard of a minister telling a congregation member they are not allowed to attend that church. The church BELONGS to the congregation! I'd ask him to please file and bring this to a head.....

[jvenice]

Most people have their church stories. I know of this happening twice. However, Paul is very specific in how to handle these situations. It sounds like your pastor needs to read it. You are only going to answer to God for what you do. It's easier to sink to his level, but pray it out. You will know what to do. :grouphug:

[TravelingChris]

I totally agree with jvenice. Not only do we have the Biblical example of what to do about divisive issues and people, you also have the Book of Order. There is a reason Presbyterians (of all kinds) have such books and it is to avoid such issues. The pastor is simply the senior elder (teaching elder) and is not in charge of the church in that way. THe ruling elders are supposed to confront the offender (and I am not saying your husband did anything at all). DIsfellowshipping is a serious punishment and not one to be done lightly. There are procedures.

 

Having said that, I think what your husband has decided to do is smart. Along with kalamanak and others, I think there is a definite possibility that the pastor has some other issues. SInce you are hardly attending at all, I would just come back in MAy as you plan and go from there. The situation may have resolved by then.