Family quandry... what saith the HIVE?

[LisaKinVA]

My grandmother has dimensia. It's pretty bad. It's to the point that she forgets what day/time it is. If she takes a nap, she will wake up and think it's the next day... and take her medication again. She is extremely paranoid, and cannot handle day-to-day *anything.*

 

The refuses to leave her home in GA. She's refused for years. My mom started living with my grandmother about 4 years ago... first she'd go down for a month, and be home for two. Then, she'd be down there for a couple of months, home for one... she hasn't been back here since summer, and that was her first visit in a year. She is afraid to leave.

 

My mother's sister and my mom both don't feel they can really go the court-declared incompetence route -- the doctor has said it would be difficult, because (especially when she's angry), she can sound perfectly lucid.

 

The problem being... periods of "lucidity" does not equate to being able to care for herself.

 

My brother and her sister have both told her it's "wrong" for her be there, and have told her she needs to leave. That remaining in GA, to help my grandmother (wrong in the Biblical sense... although neither my mom, nor I can find any scriptural references to support this). It's really easy for them to say, that my mother's being there is "allowing my grandmother the freedom to stay." And that if my mom "left" -- my grandmother would "change her mind" and move closer to family. Both of those sentiments are predicated on a sane, logical, individual -- my grandmother is neither (in the true sense of the word).

 

I know my mother... I honestly believe that if she LEFT my grandmother there to fend for herself, and something happened (and it *always* does), and that something were to lead to my grandmother's death. My mother would blame herself, and she would probably go into a deep depression. She would be wracked with guilt...guilt that would most likely breed anger at herself for ignoring that little voice, and anger at my brother and her sister for encouraging her do leave my grandmother alone.

 

Obviously this post is laced with personal feelings on my end... believe me, I want my mother here. I miss my mother. I am upset at the way things are, but I don't believe my senile grandmother is in any mental condition to make a logical decision to move here *under any circumstances.*

 

If you've had a parent (or grandparent) in this type of situation...what do you think? If this was your mother... what would you do? Leave her and "hope" for the best? Or stay...

[Mejane]

I wouldn't leave her. Please encourage your mother to contact the local department of aging services or a chapter of the Alzheimer's Association. They can evaluate your grandmother and provide help if it's needed.

[dcjlkplus3]

:grouphug:

Honestly, I would do whatever I could to help my mother do what she feels she needs to do, which seems to be helping her mother. Is her sister willing to share the burden with her so that she can maybe go with 1 month there and 1 month home? Is this putting a financial strain on her or just the emotional strain of dealing with a failing parent? Have you asked her what you can do to help? Have you talked to you sister and brother and shared your concerns with them?

[Abigail4476]

Having personally experienced my father having dementia in the last couple of years before he died, I'll just say two things:

 

1. There is no way a person with dementia should be left to fend for themselves, even if they vocalize that preference.

2. It's your mother's decision, whether she wants to stay or not. People (such as her siblings) who don't want to put in the time and effort to be caregivers shouldn't have much of a say (if any).

 

I'm sorry you and your family are having to deal with this; there's nothing easy about it.

 

:grouphug:

[LisaKinVA]

:grouphug:

Honestly, I would do whatever I could to help my mother do what she feels she needs to do, which seems to be helping her mother. Is her sister willing to share the burden with her so that she can maybe go with 1 month there and 1 month home? Is this putting a financial strain on her or just the emotional strain of dealing with a failing parent? Have you asked her what you can do to help? Have you talked to you sister and brother and shared your concerns with them?

 

No. My aunt is moving to Texas in about 4 weeks. She has never been willing to help. Belives it is *wrong* to be away from her husband for *any* reason... as does my brother. I was thinking about shooting an e-mail to my dad, my brother and my aunt, because this just really bothers me.

 

My mother is pretty much dealing with it alone. I call. I e-mail. I offer all the support I can, but with 5 kids... there is nothing I can really do, other than attempt to help around her house (read that as pick up after my dad.)

[LisaKinVA]

Having personally experienced my father having dementia in the last couple of years before he died, I'll just say two things:

 

1. There is no way a person with dementia should be left to fend for themselves, even if they vocalize that preference.

2. It's your mother's decision, whether she wants to stay or not. People (such as her siblings) who don't want to put in the time and effort to be caregivers shouldn't have much of a say (if any).

 

I'm sorry you and your family are having to deal with this; there's nothing easy about it.

 

:grouphug:

 

Thank you... I appreciate this.

[ConnieB]

I'm not understanding the doctor's statement that get a court order for her care would be difficult. I assume the doctor's feels she needs care? All he has to do is testify to that in the courtroom, including that for the few moments that she is lucid she's fine, but the rest of the day she is incompetent.

 

And, taking your medication twice in one day because you can't discern what day it is is another heavy point of evidence.

 

Not that I advocate forcible removal of grandma if there is an alternative! Far from it. If your mother is willing and able to stay and take care of grandma, then I would do what I could to encourage, support, and be a shoulder/ear for her. In the long run, I think your mom will be glad that she helped her mother stay in the home she so desperately wants to be in, rather than in a rather cold unloving care home somewhere. Looking back after grandma is gone, these last months/years will be very precious that she was able to be there with her mom. And, well, frankly, less guilt ridden when something happens to grandma and your mother wasn't there.

 

As for the other siblings....it's difficult to truly understand the seriousness of a situation like this from a distance. I do understand their thought process but until they've dealt in person first hand with someone with dementia you can not begin to understand the depth of the problem. It's akin to leaving a toddler home alone....which of course the siblings would never advocate, but it's hard to picture Grandma as a toddler.

 

I agree with the previous poster about contacting the local support groups for families dealing with Altzheimer/dementia and other age related concerns. They should be able to speak with the siblings and make them better comprehend the extent of grandma's illness....and hopefully get them on board so that your mother does not have to fight them as well....caring for someone like this is EXHAUSTING...and having other family members not supporting you and actually objecting is a stress she does not need. The local group should also be able to tell her about any local resources available....sometimes there are volunteer or inexpensive help available so that your mother can have some time away without worrying, not sure about months, but possibly a few days or weeks. It depends on what is available locally....every state/town is going to have different levels of service. If her doctor prescribes in-house caretaker services it's even possible that insurance would pay some of it.

 

:grouphug:

[Mama Geek]

:grouphug:

I am in the camp of deciding what the right thing to do is and then following through no matter how hard it is. It sounds like your mom believes she is doing what is right even though she doesn't have the support of some of her family.

[Rebecca VA]

Could your grandmother move in with your mom and dad? I understand that she will miss her former home, but surely she would appreciate having your parents right there with her all the time.

[Perry]

I'm not understanding the doctor's statement that get a court order for her care would be difficult. I assume the doctor's feels she needs care? All he has to do is testify to that in the courtroom, including that for the few moments that she is lucid she's fine, but the rest of the day she is incompetent.

:iagree:

 

I wouldn't take legal advice from a doctor. Talk to a lawyer. :grouphug:

[Tarreymere]

Is there a county office on aging where your grandmother lives? They might have some specific suggestions for your mother and grandmother on what kinds of services are available in that area.

 

If she is that bad I can understand why your mother doesn't feel comfortable leaving her alone. Would your grandmother allow home nursing visits? If she is agreeable, a home health agency can have someone come by and give her her medications or fill a medication dispenser for her to use, and can do some basic housekeeping and generally keep an eye on what is going on. Some aging agencies offer transportation to senior centers and other agencies can deliver a meal. I know if it were me I would rather stay in my own home as long as possible. However, if her dementia is to the point that she is a danger to herself (leaving a pot on the stove, wandering outside, that sort of thing) then that is a different story.

[Catwoman]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

It's so hard when a person has dementia, and even worse when the person is like your grandmother -- not well enough to live alone, but lucid enough to think she can make her own decisions (and stubborn enough to dig in her heels and not budge.)

 

I give your mom so much credit for taking on all of the responsibility. It would be so much easier for her if someone else would step up and help, but that never seems to happen.

 

I wish I knew what to tell you to do. Can your mom afford to hire a live-in aide for your grandmother? Some of the costs may be covered by her health insurance. The biggest problem will be to get Grandma to agree to having "a stranger" living in her house, and of course, it's not easy to find good and trustworthy help, either.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I just hope your mom isn't damaging her own health by investing so much energy into taking care of your grandmother. Situations like that are so incredibly stressful, and your mom doesn't sound like the type of person who could sit back and relax about it. She's probably constantly worried that your grandmother will wander outside at night, or set the house on fire, or that she'll fall down... it's hard to sleep at night when you've got things like that on your mind.

 

Cat

[JoyfulMama]

I wouldn't leave her. Please encourage your mother to contact the local department of aging services or a chapter of the Alzheimer's Association. They can evaluate your grandmother and provide help if it's needed.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Can I say it again?

:iagree:

[LisaKinVA]

Could your grandmother move in with your mom and dad? I understand that she will miss her former home, but surely she would appreciate having your parents right there with her all the time.

 

She has been invited to live with my parents since my grandfather died almost 18 years ago. She has refused. My uncle tried to get her to move before he died 7 years ago. She is paranoid. She believes everyone is "trying to take her home away." She believes everyone is "stealing" from her.

 

I *wish* she would move here, but short of putting her in a straight-jacket and forcing the issue... she's not going to do it on her own. She also refuses to have strangers 'help' her. When her oldest friend (from young girlhood) came to visit, her friend kept trying to get her to come here with my mom. She just kept saying that she "can't."

[LisaKinVA]

I asked my mom to look into the local agency on aging... and Alzheimer's group.

 

I think the issue with the competency hearing has to do with the fact that my grandmother is extremely paranoid... and there is some fear that she could become physical. I wasn't there for the doctor's appointment, but the doctor was definitely opposed to the idea at the time (Again, I don't know all of the ins & outs... and much has changed in the past year with the progression of the disease.)

 

She will not allow anyone to "help" -- she barely allows my mother to remain. You've heard of "mean drunks?" She is a "mean" dimensia patient. This disease has brought out the worst in my Grandmother... magnified them, and made it very stressful.

 

There is no money for a care facility. Someone either has to live there, or we have to *somehow* physically get her in a car and drive her to Virginia. She is lible to scream and claim she's being kidnapped the entire way...:tongue_smilie:

 

I sent an e-mail to my mother... I'll be passing along the suggestions, and the encouragement. She is under a lot of stress. It is very hard. She would leave and shake the dust off her feet if she were not *certain* my grandmother couldn't handle it.

 

They keep candy out all day, and that is virtually all my grandmother eats at this point (she forgets she has eaten/hasn't eaten... leaves food in the microwave, stove on... forgets what is in the refrigerator... you name it, she forgets it).

[brehon]

She has been invited to live with my parents since my grandfather died almost 18 years ago. She has refused. My uncle tried to get her to move before he died 7 years ago. She is paranoid. She believes everyone is "trying to take her home away." She believes everyone is "stealing" from her.

 

I *wish* she would move here, but short of putting her in a straight-jacket and forcing the issue... she's not going to do it on her own. She also refuses to have strangers 'help' her. When her oldest friend (from young girlhood) came to visit, her friend kept trying to get her to come here with my mom. She just kept saying that she "can't."

 

:grouphug: for you and your mom and :grouphug: for your precious grandmother.

 

My mom's mother was much the same as you've described. She was paranoid that "they" (and many times my mom, my brother, and I were included in the "they") were: going to "take her home away", "out to get her", would "steal from her", etc. My beloved grandmother turned into a person I had never seen and it tore my mom up. My mom, too, had deal with the brunt of dgm's care (although it was a bit easier as mom lives just 45 minutes away from where my grandparents lived) and it wore her down. I wasn't much physical help because I had (at the time) 3 very young kids and lived 3 hours away.

 

My mom talked to my dgm's doctor all the time and somehow even got my grandmother to let her go to the doctor's office (no clue how she did this given my g-mom's paranoia). G-mom's doctor also told mom that it would be difficult to have her (g-mom) declared mentally incompetent as the law (at least in TX) is predisposed toward competence and the bar to prove incompetence is set very high. G-mom's doctor tried his best to manage my g-mom's dementia (and the anger/paranoia which went along with it) with medications. It helped a bit. Has your g-mom's MD performed a cognitive test to determine which stage of dementia your g-mom has?

 

It very well may be that there are no answers to your mom's problem of how to get g-mom taken care of. I know that's a hard place to be in. My g-mom passed away 4 years ago (as did g-dad a few months before g-mom) and it took my mom quite a while before she recovered.

[Rebecca VA]

You know, my husband's father was very empathic about not leaving his home, even though he couldn't afford to live there and was growing very old (in his mid-80s). Finally an acute illness forced him into the hospital for a short time. Then -- horror of horrors to him -- he had to go to a nursing home for a couple of weeks to recover (doctors' orders).

 

He hated the nursing home so badly that he was glad and grateful to finally accept an offer to move into my BIL's house. He realized he wasn't healthy enough to live on his own anymore. He lived with my BIL for several years and was happy as a lark.

 

Change is hard, but good change can definitely improve one's quality of life.

[Carol in Cal.]

She is not safe alone. Your mom is in a terrible spot. It would be nice if the others would pitch in to force the issue, but your mom leaving will not accomplish that. Bottom line--you can't leave a baby to fend for herself, and not a dementia patient either. I don't know what to suggest TO DO, but your uncle and aunt are making a very bad suggestion that can't possibly work. I'm so sorry that you and your mom are needing to deal with this right now.

[BeckyFL]

IMO...

Your grandmother should not be left alone

No one person should try to be this type of caregiver. It is all consuming and your mom does have herself and other people in her life to think about. If she doesn't take care of herself, she won't be there to help anyone.

I think it's time to call the doctor privately and explain what is happening THEN take her in. The doctor should be able to do a brief screening and send her for some further tests or to a specialist.

Remember that it does not make sense to allow your grandmother to call the shots. She has dementia. She doesn't know what's best for herself, she cannot think through decisions and she can't look at the situation rationally. This would be the equivalent of allowing your 2 year old to make family decisions. The capability to reason it all out just isn't there sadly.

It's hard to parent your parent, but your mom needs to be strong and start taking action. I'll be praying for her, your grandmother and your family. I know how hard it is to go through all this. It was a huge transition for me when my mom developed Alzheimer's. My mom was so intelligent, funny, a great problem-solver, a wonderful nurse and someone I had looked up to all my life. To have to take the reigns from her was beyond hard. She never seemed to know that there was anything wrong with her at all and yet I don't think she always knew that I was trying to act in her best interest somehow. A hard road to travel for sure.

[Robin M]

Hire a private caregiver to live with her. That's what we did for my grandmother. She was a terror to live with, very negative and all that. My dad hired a caregiver whom my grandmother loved dearly. Was the best decision for all. A little expensive but necessary if you don't want to put her in home.

[LisaKinVA]

:grouphug: for you and your mom and :grouphug: for your precious grandmother.

 

My mom's mother was much the same as you've described. She was paranoid that "they" (and many times my mom, my brother, and I were included in the "they") were: going to "take her home away", "out to get her", would "steal from her", etc. My beloved grandmother turned into a person I had never seen and it tore my mom up. My mom, too, had deal with the brunt of dgm's care (although it was a bit easier as mom lives just 45 minutes away from where my grandparents lived) and it wore her down. I wasn't much physical help because I had (at the time) 3 very young kids and lived 3 hours away.

 

My mom talked to my dgm's doctor all the time and somehow even got my grandmother to let her go to the doctor's office (no clue how she did this given my g-mom's paranoia). G-mom's doctor also told mom that it would be difficult to have her (g-mom) declared mentally incompetent as the law (at least in TX) is predisposed toward competence and the bar to prove incompetence is set very high. G-mom's doctor tried his best to manage my g-mom's dementia (and the anger/paranoia which went along with it) with medications. It helped a bit. Has your g-mom's MD performed a cognitive test to determine which stage of dementia your g-mom has?

 

It very well may be that there are no answers to your mom's problem of how to get g-mom taken care of. I know that's a hard place to be in. My g-mom passed away 4 years ago (as did g-dad a few months before g-mom) and it took my mom quite a while before she recovered.

 

Wow... you've described this situation in near-perfect terms. It feels wonderful to *not* be alone.

 

Medications were prescribed, but g-mother refused to take them... she read the description about what it was for and declared, "she didn't have THAT." Mom tried... but what are you going to do? She seems to have gone downhill so very quickly. My mom first called the doctor (behind g-mother's back) about 2 years ago, at my behest. The doctor screened her then, and she had mild dimensia. I suppose if he were to test her now, it would be completely different. As back then, she was able to be left for periods of time without too many issues (a timer, calendar, and pre-filled pill boxes pretty much kept her straight... nothing helps these days.)

 

I think my mother could handle it alright if it weren't for the anger/paranoia. She keeps trying not to take it personally, but she's there all. the. time. She needs a break. She needs to get away. For her own health!

 

Thank you... I will definitely pass some of this along, and let her know that you've seen what she has. I just wish there were more people who have BTDT that she could talk to.

[Murphy101]

She needs to take grandma in again, get a current evaluation and insist she at the very least needs some form of respite care. Respite care can double benefit bc another person not emotionally vested can note the situation. It can take awhile to find someone that "fits" and is reliable, but nice she does they are worth their weight in gold.

 

It won't be easy and grandma is going to get angry, but it's just got to be done for all their health.

:grouphug:

[elizabeth]

:grouphug: Honey I have been there . As a young lawyer I had to testify at my grandfathers hearing and it truly was so much harder than I thought it would be but I did the right thing. Call a lawyer, he or she can get a competency hrg. The things you describe are all textbook dementia.How many more years of your mothers life should be miserable either??? The lawyer will know how to sell the house to dispose of assets so that medicare will be accessible for remibursement to a care facility. This is heartbreaking and I am sorry.

http://www.medicare.gov/longtermcare/static/home.asp Again if I were closer I could help more in lieu of that accept my empathy and feel free to email me if you are needing information on finding an attorney that is reasonable and competent....not always easy. Your state bar association should be able to refer you to an elder care specialist .

[Murphy101]

I will add, that if handled with proper support, dementia does not have to mean putting her in a care facility.

 

For our grandmother with alzhimers, it started with respite care, then an in home nurse a couple times a week, then two in home nurses trading working part time during the week. The only time she was in a hospital was for other medical treatment.

 

For nearly 7 years up to her death with grandpa by her side - it was all at home.

 

Maybe just moving grandma to your mother's home would ease a huge amount of her burdens and give her more of a support network to care for her? The key is support.

:grouphug:

[elizabeth]

I am sorry but given the information posted here it seems that grandma is combative, hostile and paranoid. There is no reason to make her home life miserable if there is a care facility nearby. Having watched several clients do this I can honestly say they all regretted it and frankly wished they had placed their loved ones in a specialized care setting very near by years ago. It usually ended with the loved one falling and breaking a hip and then the social workers want to know who the heck was in charge and not doing their job... as if one person can deal with an enraged, paranoid, non compliant with meds patient who happens to be the person they were guided and raised by . Talk about pain and misery for all involved with no purpose. Not at all what this professional would advise.

[BeckyFL]

:iagree:

I am sorry but given the information posted here it seems that grandma is combative, hostile and paranoid. There is no reason to make her home life miserable if there is a care facility nearby. Having watched several clients do this I can honestly say they all regretted it and frankly wished they had placed their loved ones in a specialized care setting very near by years ago. It usually ended with the loved one falling and breaking a hip and then the social workers want to know who the heck was in charge and not doing their job... as if one person can deal with an enraged, paranoid, non compliant with meds patient who happens to be the person they were guided and raised by . Talk about pain and misery for all involved with no purpose. Not at all what this professional would advise.

[FlockOfSillies]

I *wish* she would move here, but short of putting her in a straight-jacket and forcing the issue... she's not going to do it on her own.

 

It sounds like you do have to force the issue. No money for a nursing home, your folks are willing to have her move in... but they need a court order to gain power of attorney, probably. With enough documentation (like following Gma around with a video camera for an hour), I think it would be surprisingly easy, and the added strain on your mom of being away from home would be gone. Then she'd only have to deal with Gma.

 

:grouphug:

[Denisemomof4]

when my oldest son was much, much younger, I went to visit my grandparents. I lived in NH and they lived in IL. When I saw them, their neighbors told me that there was NO way we could leave my grandparents there alone. My mother had just been out the month before, or something like that. I called my mother and told her what the neighbors were saying and now my grandfather thought I was his wife. I told her there was NO WAY they could be left alone any longer. My parents were always the type to live in denial and wait until an emergency moment to take care of things, and I just couldn't sit by and watch that happen this time. I was shocked when they actually listened to me and moved my grandparents to IL. My grandfather was the one who always fought the move, my grandmother wanted to be by my mom, her dd. My grandfather was way into the later stages of Alzheimers and really couldn't even protest at that point, so moving them was pretty easy aside from the physical of going through their stuff and moving it all out here.

 

My mil was a different story. We knew her paranoia was getting really bad but we felt that our hands were tied at the moment. We did finally call her dr. and warn her of mil's driving issues and we never really had time to take matters in our own hands because she had a stroke and heart attack. She survived but was then diagnosed with dementia and three doctors told us she could never be home alone again.

 

Now when we went to clean out her house is when we realized how sick she really was. She had meat stored between windows that had rotted and stunk up the entire house when it started to warm. She had become a severe hoarder, something we weren't aware of because she kept certain doors closed in her house. We found many, many burnt pans, pots, etc. Holes burnt right through them. We are SO lucky that nothing ever happened to her.

 

I can tell you that the paranoia and the anger are only going to get worse. MUCH worse. Is your grandmother being treated at all? Medications can slow down the progression of the disease. It would be really good if your mother could call someone who actually COULD give her a diagnosis.

 

I can tell you that leaving her alone is dangerous from what you've said. I don't really understand why nobody wants to be medical POA over her, it really sounds like your grandmother is not capable of making the right decisions anymore. It is a hard thing to do, and you may feel guilt, but it is in the best interest of your grandmother for someone else to be able to make competent medical decisions and living arrangements.

 

While I do agree your mother needs to help her mother, being separated from her husband and family is NOT the right way to go about it. Your grandmother is failing and needs help and everyone else involved will have their hands full no matter what, but keeping your grandmother 1000 miles away so she can stay in her own home is not fair for your mother OR your father. or you. Your mother needs to get to the point to where she will realize this, or your father needs to step in and tell your mother enough. Your grandmother is angry because she knows that once she leaves her house she will never go back and will never have her own independence again. So she's going to fight this. But your mother being separated is not the answer.

 

I want to forewarn you. This may NOT happen to you but it's something you need to realize. My mil was not allowed to return to her home and we had to place her in a nursing home. I could never, ever live with her, neither could dh or my kids. She's a very, very difficult woman. She was only there a couple of months before she was causing fights in the nursing home; refusing to close her window during a blizzard while her VERY frail roommate was ice cold. It was a mess. Anyway, my mil always blames dh for not allowing her to go back home. Because dh is in charge of her, if we did allow her to go home and something happened, we would be legally responsible. We just can't take that chance. She has been in the nursing home for three years and always calls dh to tell him her bags are packed and she's ready to go home. Her meds have increased recently because she is getting more aggitated, and she now regularly calls dh to tell him she's going to call the police on him. She's getting worse and worse and will always blame dh for not allowing her to go back home.

 

My mother, on the other hand, did come home to live with us. She had end stage dementia and was confined to a wheelchair. After dad died, the assisted living facility was so bad to her I think they were trying to end her life sooner. My mother was a LOT of work. Think adult sized infant. anyway, three weeks after my dad died I had to fight for her to be cared for properly. I gave up my fight in less than two months and brought her home. I think because she had been treated badly in the facility, even though she had end stage dementia when I brought her home, she DID know what I was doing for her and was so thankful. She also had her moments where she physically and verbally attacked me. She didn't have range of motion in her arms but MAN could she pinch HARD!!!:glare: I think she was easier because she was just so thankful that I rescued her. And when she got really, really bad, I finally allowed myself to give mer medication for agitation.

 

I've been through this on many sides. I can tell you for sure that it does NOT sound like your grandmother should be left alone AT ALL, and for your mother to live out of state to care for her, leaving her husband behind, is not a long term solution. All I can say is that you need to be supportive as much as you can and let the rest go. It was SO HARD to watch my parents make awful mistakes but I really had to let it go. I wasn't in charge and was powerless to change things so when mom fell AGAIN, or I visited and dad hadn't showered in days because he couldn't allow mom out of sight for a moment, etc., etc., I had to let it go. I was powerless to do anything else.

 

So if something does happen, nobody is to blame. BUT, I absolutely agree that your grandmother needs a diagnosis. Once this happens, NOBODY will be responsible for making the decision - the doctors will. But maybe her primary won't help, but you need someone who will actually diagnose her. I believe it's a geriatric neurologist/psychiatrist. I was there when my mom was tested. If you take her to the RIGHT doctor, THEY will be the ones making the call, not your mom or anyone else.

 

PM me ANYtime you want. I can call you anytime, too as I have unlimited coverage in the US. I will help, or listen, all I can. Dementia took both my grandparents and my mom. My mom was 68 when she died of end stage and was 63 when diagnosed with moderate. :sad::sad::sad: My mil has it, too. Unfortunately, I'm well versed in so many areas here.

[Denisemomof4]

She has been invited to live with my parents since my grandfather died almost 18 years ago. She has refused. My uncle tried to get her to move before he died 7 years ago. She is paranoid. She believes everyone is "trying to take her home away." She believes everyone is "stealing" from her.

 

I *wish* she would move here, but short of putting her in a straight-jacket and forcing the issue... she's not going to do it on her own. She also refuses to have strangers 'help' her. When her oldest friend (from young girlhood) came to visit, her friend kept trying to get her to come here with my mom. She just kept saying that she "can't."

 

that paranoia and feeling of everyone stealing from you is very, very common in dementia. My mom got so bad that she "hid" very, very expensive jewelry. We have never found all of it. She also would "hide" money in her bra. She was so afraid everything was going to get stolen.

 

She also got very paranoid of things that never really happened She would stay up all night crying for her lost dog that she never had. She DID have a dog at the time but insisted she had a "second" dog. She'd want to call the police for help but dad was able to prevent that. When they moved into an adult community, before going into assisted living, she'd knock on doors and yell at the women, CERTAIN my dad was in there being inappropriate with them. My poor devoted dad was so distraught and embarrassed. It was all so sad.

[kalanamak]

I'm not understanding the doctor's statement that get a court order for her care would be difficult. I assume the doctor's feels she needs care? All he has to do is testify to that in the courtroom, including that for the few moments that she is lucid she's fine, but the rest of the day she is incompetent.

 

 

In our state an MD can testify that a person lacks capacity, but competence is declared by a judge, and only a judge. In our state, it required two licensed professionals, often a psychiatrist and a psychologist (cheaper than two MDs). A temporary detainment is done by a designated county mental health professional, often a social worker, who ascertains if a person is a danger to self or others. It used to be "eminent", but after the Zamora killings, the law has gotten more along the lines of "significant risk of". That said, it ain't easy getting detained. This is a 72 hour hold, at which point a judge must weigh in and release the person or give a 14 day hold. If GM is as feisty as she seems, she may go ballistic if she loses legal control and make enough of a scene to be detained physically (locked up). FYI.

 

I would contact GM's aging services for her locale. They can point you to the law of that area, and an attorney if needed. Unfortunately, it often comes to significant decompensation, an accident, an arrest, or some other crisis to get a person detained. One reason to have a DPOA. If you do ever go loop-de-loop, this gives the courts an idea of who you trusted when you had the capacity to trust.

:grouphug:

[Denisemomof4]

I asked my mom to look into the local agency on aging... and Alzheimer's group.

 

I think the issue with the competency hearing has to do with the fact that my grandmother is extremely paranoid... and there is some fear that she could become physical. I wasn't there for the doctor's appointment, but the doctor was definitely opposed to the idea at the time (Again, I don't know all of the ins & outs... and much has changed in the past year with the progression of the disease.)

 

She will not allow anyone to "help" -- she barely allows my mother to remain. You've heard of "mean drunks?" She is a "mean" dimensia patient. This disease has brought out the worst in my Grandmother... magnified them, and made it very stressful.

 

There is no money for a care facility. Someone either has to live there, or we have to *somehow* physically get her in a car and drive her to Virginia. She is lible to scream and claim she's being kidnapped the entire way...:tongue_smilie:

 

I sent an e-mail to my mother... I'll be passing along the suggestions, and the encouragement. She is under a lot of stress. It is very hard. She would leave and shake the dust off her feet if she were not *certain* my grandmother couldn't handle it.

 

They keep candy out all day, and that is virtually all my grandmother eats at this point (she forgets she has eaten/hasn't eaten... leaves food in the microwave, stove on... forgets what is in the refrigerator... you name it, she forgets it).

 

I drove my grandparents from IL to NH. It got so bad that in CT I called dh in hysterics and told him he had to come get me. He talked me down and I made it home, but my grandmother threw a bottle of soda at my grandfather as I was driving, my grandfather took off his shoe and hit my grandmother. REmember, at the time we didn't realize they BOTH had dementia.

 

When I finally got home, I took my phone off the hook for two weeks.

[Murphy101]

I said it didn't have to mean putting her in a facility.

And that is true.

 

That is not to say choosing a care facility is a wrong or not necessary sometimes.

 

I mean just what I said it does not HAVE mean it is necessary.

 

Grnadma was combative, angry, and paranoid for about three years. But she was very closely monitored and medications can help with that. And again, they had access to lots of support services and family. One person exhausting themselves under those unremitting conditions would be horrible indeed.

:grouphug:

[Denisemomof4]

IMO...

Your grandmother should not be left alone

No one person should try to be this type of caregiver. It is all consuming and your mom does have herself and other people in her life to think about. If she doesn't take care of herself, she won't be there to help anyone.

 

 

 

This is SO true. For about six weeks after my mom died I could NOT pry myself out of bed or off the couch. I was just so tired, exhausted, to the core of my being I just was absolutely DRAINED. I gained 20 pounds while caring for my mother and my blood pressure is still out of control, and my mom died July 2009. I also had help in the home. Still, it all was SO exhausting and I'm not sure if I'll ever return to whom I once was. BUT, I was doing all of this while still having a husband and four kids at home, one a very troubled RAD child.

 

I agree that it would be nice if your mom had help, but it doesn't sound like there is much. Easter Seals, among other places, have adult care centers where dementia patients can go for a day. Your grandmother likely isn't ready for that yet, but if you mother does become her caretaker, please encourage your mom to think of herself, too. I'm 47, going on 48, and my blood pressure medication has been quadrupled and my bp still isn't controlled well.

[Denisemomof4]

if your mother will accept it, I have a book I'd like to send her. This is it:

 

http://www.amazon.com/My-Parents-Alzheimers-Daughters-Story/dp/0533135516

 

I think it will be a very good read for her. If she's not comfortable giving out an address, is there a nearby church or business I could send it to? Would she read it?

 

My dear, sweet friend, a nurse, helped me so much on my difficult journey. She and her co-workers got me this book at an event (they work in nursing homes and assisted living facilities) and they all tried to help me so much.

[elizabeth]

I said it didn't have to mean putting her in a facility.

And that is true.

 

That is not to say choosing a care facility is a wrong or not necessary sometimes.

 

I mean just what I said it does not HAVE mean it is necessary.

 

Grnadma was combative, angry, and paranoid for about three years. But she was very closely monitored and medications can help with that. And again, they had access to lots of support services and family. One person exhausting themselves under those unremitting conditions would be horrible indeed.

:grouphug:

 

I understand your clarification certainly. I sounded harsh and did not mean to. Please excuse my tone as I am not feeling well and boy does it show... My mom did this tour of duty for years, caring for my darling grandfather, a fine gentleman when well but holy smokes when they dementia took hold it was a nightmare. After she cared for him, paid all his bills , hired extra help and then realized he was a danger to self and others( as in packing heat and possessed of a **** good aim) she had to hire an attorney and her siblings who do not live here and never lifted a finger came into court and testified that they thought he was doing just fine...the judge ignored them both . He lived for a few years with mom checking in daily unannounced as a retired RN they certainly did not tangle with her! It just is so darn hard either way. There are always questions, maybe regrets but if one acts from selfless love then I think it works out eventually it is just a terribly painful situation.

[brehon]

Wow... you've described this situation in near-perfect terms. It feels wonderful to *not* be alone.

 

Medications were prescribed, but g-mother refused to take them... she read the description about what it was for and declared, "she didn't have THAT." Mom tried... but what are you going to do? She seems to have gone downhill so very quickly. My mom first called the doctor (behind g-mother's back) about 2 years ago, at my behest. The doctor screened her then, and she had mild dimensia. I suppose if he were to test her now, it would be completely different. As back then, she was able to be left for periods of time without too many issues (a timer, calendar, and pre-filled pill boxes pretty much kept her straight... nothing helps these days.)

 

That's very difficult. Mom had to deal with that as well. It might be time for your g-mom's MD to perform another cognitive test. But, ultimately, you're right -- your mom can't force your g-mom to take meds and not every med is easily hidden in food or otherwise disguised. And some meds simply can't be crushed. Be real nice if pharmaceutical companies realized the need (and, hence, the profits) for neutral tasting liquid medications for the elderly!

 

I think my mother could handle it alright if it weren't for the anger/paranoia. She keeps trying not to take it personally, but she's there all. the. time. She needs a break. She needs to get away. For her own health!

 

Unfortunately, the anger/paranoia IS going to worsen as the dementia worsens. And, yes, your mom needs a break.

 

Thank you... I will definitely pass some of this along, and let her know that you've seen what she has. I just wish there were more people who have BTDT that she could talk to.

 

I think the best thing your mom can do for her own mental health (and, yes, it can become a mental health issue for your dmom) is to contact the local social services/aging services. These agencies usually have wonderful information (including support groups for caregivers) and resources. My mom might be willing to talk to your mom. I can ask her. Not sure how to arrange that -- maybe via e-mail.

 

Elizabeth had great advice, too, re: legal avenues to explore. Can your mom get MPOA for your g-mom? DPOA would be great as well. It may be difficult now because of your g-mom's condition, but worth a try. My mom (and her brother) managed to convince my grandparents to give them joint MPOA. Made life so, so much easier dealing with doctors, nurses, etc who usually want to give family needed information, but simply can't because of HIPPA (how I detest that law - for professional as well as personal reasons). I think they presented the request as "We need this so your wishes can be honored if there ever comes a time when you're not able to let us know what you want." Something like that. It'll be very difficult with your dg-mom's paranoia, but maybe in a lucid moment. Let me know if I can answer any questions for you.

[Laurie4b]

Is the problem that your mother is married and is leaving her husband to care for her mother?

[LisaKinVA]

Is the problem that your mother is married and is leaving her husband to care for her mother?

 

Let's just say... my grandmother being ill was a good excuse for my mom to leave my dad. There are many, many issues there. However, being with my grandmother through all of this has made my dad... well... not quite as bad.

 

I don't want to make this thread about my mom & dad. That is a whole 'nother story. All I will say is that when this all broke out, my mom couldn't stand the thought of being anywhere near my dad. They have not had TEA in roughly 6 years. However, during the past 6 months, life with my grandmother has been so incredibly difficult, life with my dad looks almost pleasant (even without TEA) in contrast.

[gaillardia]

My mother died of cancer, my grandmother was still living and had two sons and a few other family friends to look in on her. She had been forgetting a lot of things. She didn't know my sister when she came to visit, but always knew who I was.?

She had been making a lot of unusual decisions/choices. She subscribed to a LOT of magazines, drank a little of tiny bottles of coke/ginger ale and left them in the fridge, had people in and didn't know who they were (my sister for instance), she said her neighbors were running their motors all night long, she kept every piece of mail that came in nice neat stacks in her bedroom. One time some guys came by and talked her into buying replacement windows and said they'd install them in January (in northern Virginia). Then my uncles knew there were problems with her ability to reason and think for sure.

Within a couple of months of mom's death, my uncle was staying overnight; she fell out of bed, breaking her hip. Into the hospital, then rehab, then a rest home. She did end up breaking another bone, requiring surgery, but she was too frail at that point and had developed pneumonia.

She wasn't ever violent or angry, just couldn't remember most of current life. She always remembered me, my name, but I could tell she considered us as friends, as if she were my age.

I don't know how they got everything lined up for her to go to the rest home but my mom was gone and my uncles did the best they could.

You have gotten solid advice from the hive.:grouphug:

I think many of us know how difficult this can be.

[katemary63]

While I do agree your mother needs to help her mother, being separated from her husband and family is NOT the right way to go about it.

 

 

:iagree::iagree: Your mom needs to have her mother declared incompetant or what ever it takes to make legal decisions for her. Then move her closer to her home. She may go kicking and screaming the whole way but that is better then the alternatives: being left alone or ruining your mom's life.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

That is a rotten situation to be in all around. I'm sorry your family is going through this. My mom and aunt are dealing with something similar with my other aunt. She does not have dementia, but has other serious health issues and has been told not to drive by a neurologist, but she still insists on driving, and basically doing everything her own way. She appears sane, but if you look at her actions and some of the things she says as a whole picture, she's not right in the head. No rational person would do these things. My mom and aunt keep trying to accommodate her irrational wants and imagined needs, and they are driving themselves nuts over it. This is not exactly the same situation that your mother is in, but I would give your mother the same advice that I give my mom and aunt. Since the beloved person is no longer in their right mind, they shouldn't be the ones who are allowed to make the decisions. If my aunt drives, she may fall asleep at the wheel. Her condition causes her to fall asleep and she has done this at home and behind the wheel many times already and she has hurt herself. At this point, it's no longer a question of her safety, but the safety of the general public. She has lost her right to make the decision to drive for herself. In the same vein, a dementia sufferer should not be allowed to control the lives of their family members by refusing to do what is best all around. If your mother really wants to be back in her own home, grandma should be physically put in a car and moved to a location where it is not such a huge inconvenience to take care of her. This may sound harsh, and is certainly much easier said than done, but that is my opinion. One non-rational individual should not be able to control a situation that affects so many others.

[TravelingChris]

I just wanted to mention that mental hospitals are now not only filled with seriously ill bipolars, depressives, schizophrenics, etc. but also elderly with dementia and other issues. Why? Well they are put in a nursing home or some other care facility and then they act out (hit someone, threaten something, etc). In they go to a mental health hospital and that is where they stay. It is tragic since the Mental Health hospitals aren't really the place for such people- the workers are used to people with certain conditions and the population tends to be much younger and otherwise physically capable. But it just is another issue with our totally messed up mental health system and in particular, long term and short term facilities. THere aren't enough of them and there are more people than they can hold in need of care.

 

I would also recommend seeing a lawyer who specializes in elderly care matters. I lived in another part of Florida but there were such lawyers there.

[Tess in the Burbs]

My mom did the hard thing when my grandma was finally not all there day to day. She got the legal orders and moved her to a nursing home close to her. Her brother/my uncle wasn't happy about it and caused all sorts of issues, but when my mom asked him to step up and take care of it he said no, let her be there alone and whatever happens, happens. So my mom did the right thing and took better care of her. But her brother never spoke to her again. He has since died. It was an ugly situation but in the end.....my grandma was taken care of in her last years and that was enough to help my mom get over the emotions of her brother and his complaints.

[Tammyla]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[G5052]

That is a rotten situation to be in all around. I'm sorry your family is going through this. My mom and aunt are dealing with something similar with my other aunt. She does not have dementia, but has other serious health issues and has been told not to drive by a neurologist, but she still insists on driving, and basically doing everything her own way. She appears sane, but if you look at her actions and some of the things she says as a whole picture, she's not right in the head. No rational person would do these things. My mom and aunt keep trying to accommodate her irrational wants and imagined needs, and they are driving themselves nuts over it. This is not exactly the same situation that your mother is in, but I would give your mother the same advice that I give my mom and aunt. Since the beloved person is no longer in their right mind, they shouldn't be the ones who are allowed to make the decisions. If my aunt drives, she may fall asleep at the wheel. Her condition causes her to fall asleep and she has done this at home and behind the wheel many times already and she has hurt herself. At this point, it's no longer a question of her safety, but the safety of the general public. She has lost her right to make the decision to drive for herself. In the same vein, a dementia sufferer should not be allowed to control the lives of their family members by refusing to do what is best all around. If your mother really wants to be back in her own home, grandma should be physically put in a car and moved to a location where it is not such a huge inconvenience to take care of her. This may sound harsh, and is certainly much easier said than done, but that is my opinion. One non-rational individual should not be able to control a situation that affects so many others.

 

I did this several years ago because I finally decided that I would never forgive myself if my relative killed someone because of their inability to drive safely. Most states will let you do this anonymously. After they lost their license, I actually disabled it when I was there once (I live many states away) and told a family friend what I did and that it really needed to be sold because I suspected that it was occasionally used (the relative bragged to that effect). Thankfully the person took care of that.

 

Driving with an invalid license is a BIG deal if a cop pulls you over or if you have an accident, so if you do only that, it a start.

[ktgrok]

Can you have her go "visit" your mom's house with her, for a week or so, then just keep her there?

She might be mad, but since she doesn't keep track of time well it would be easy to convince her the visit isn't over yet, at least for a while. And would solve the question of getting her there kicking and screaming. Or, honestly, the doctor needs to prescribe some sedatives so you can move her.

[sandalwood]

That's a tough situation with no clear "winner". We've been through this and you just have to pick the best decision and go with it. All I can say is that when my both of my grandmothers had dementia they didn't have the capability to make decisions for themselves. One grandmother was very cranky (who had been sweet all her life, so it was out of the norm) and did the same thing with skipping med's or meals, etc. You're mother is in a tough spot and doing what she thinks is best. Our solution for her was a retirement home with nurses for those who could not take care of themselves. It was not anything like a nursing home. However, she had a nice pension that took care of it. If this were going on in my family again today & one of my parents or in laws... they would probably have to move in with me just because we couldn't afford that. But, I think for her to be alone would end up endangering herself. She might go for a walk or something and forget where she was.

[G5052]

I would also recommend seeing a lawyer who specializes in elderly care matters.

 

Most will do a free phone consultation, or at least work over the phone at a reduced rate. I have one that I periodically use for my relative with dementia, and she saved me a huge amount of aggravation.

 

Being declared mentally incompetant to the point that you can do things against their will is very difficult. An honest eldercare attorney will give you an idea of how likely it is in that state that you'll win. In most states they have to be really, really bad. Forgetting to take pills and not paying bills is not enough. They have to be out of it all of the time and truly unable to take care of themselves. My relative was finally declared incompetant in November, which was about a year later than it should have been IMHO but at least it finally happened.

 

Also call the Area Agency on Aging, the Ahlzeimer's Association, and Adult Protective Services. Even if you can't do anything right now, you need to know every option and who to call during an emergency.

[BeckyFL]

Most will do a free phone consultation, or at least work over the phone at a reduced rate. I have one that I periodically use for my relative with dementia, and she saved me a huge amount of aggravation.

 

Being declared mentally incompetant to the point that you can do things against their will is very difficult. An honest eldercare attorney will give you an idea of how likely it is in that state that you'll win. In most states they have to be really, really bad. Forgetting to take pills and not paying bills is not enough. They have to be out of it all of the time and truly unable to take care of themselves. My relative was finally declared incompetant in November, which was about a year later than it should have been IMHO but at least it finally happened.

 

Also call the Area Agency on Aging, the Ahlzeimer's Association, and Adult Protective Services. Even if you can't do anything right now, you need to know every option and who to call during an emergency.

 

I still think the first stop is the doctor... and quickly. Even if you were thinking of pursuing guardianship, they have to make medical determinations before you could take legal action anyway. They can give advice as to your best course of action as well. For us, the doctors were crucial. I never had to go the guardianship route, but there are so many things that the Dr's pointed out to me that I had not considered. Your grandmother could even be in the percentage of those who respond well to medication.

[LisaKinVA]

:auto:

Can you have her go "visit" your mom's house with her, for a week or so, then just keep her there?

She might be mad, but since she doesn't keep track of time well it would be easy to convince her the visit isn't over yet, at least for a while. And would solve the question of getting her there kicking and screaming. Or, honestly, the doctor needs to prescribe some sedatives so you can move her.

 

She won't get in a car if bags are packed. She won't even get in the car to go to my brother's house the day after Christmas, which is an hour away. She won't go visit anyone. She will go to her Bible Study, to town, to the bank, and to the doctor's. She will walk down the street to her old friend, Evelyn's house (who also has dimensia).

 

I don't think she's been anywhere since her sister died a couple of years ago.

 

Short of telling her someone died... lying... etc. she won't go anywhere. She is SURE we are going to kidnap her. :tongue_smilie:

 

Hmmm... got me thinking... maybe she'd go to TN to visit my grandfather and uncle's graves... and THEN my mom could drive her to VA?

 

I'll mention it.