I am having a rough night (teen dating & our church)

[missesd]

Ok, so my 16 yr old began "seeing" a very nice 14 yr old girl from our church. It used to be- a long time ago- that 14 was the group dating age, and 16 was single dating. All their life that was what they were told. Well apparently that has changed. At 14 the church still holds dances, which would lead one to believe it was still group dating age. But now they are saying that at 16 they can date, but it's not really a date. You are supposed to inform your would be suitor, that really this is no more then friends and it can't go anywhere... I don't really see the point in that. Then you have to rotate dates. You can not see one you may be interested in getting to know better or are sweet on. You have to cycle yourself around however many suitors I guess you and your parents decide on, before you can see this one person again. Then at 18 you can "group date", and single- one on one- dating at 20, or after your mission. Now I understand the why's, but.... I don't necessarily agree with this. The problem is anything current leaders say becomes scriptural doctrine. So by not following this to the letter, we are not doing as told, not following counsel, etc... I have a problem with this because I feel it should be up to me to decide what is best for my children. And because I am who I am, I actually like to give my children input in the things that affect their lives. And somewhere in there we try and meet in the middle. Now, of course that's not always possible, but I try to show my children I respect them, I trust them to adhere to good standards, and that I value their thoughts.

 

So what's the problem?? Nothing in my opinion. Erik and this girl see each other on Sundays, Wednesday night activities, when and if our families get together, and for an occasional movie as a group- parents included. They don't hold hands, they can't front hug, and there is no kissing. They Facebook sweet messages on each others wall, and text during the allotted hours. All in all I think at 16 my son has been very good about following the letter, when there is so much else worse he could do. She just went to her first dance last month, and they danced all the dances together... apparently that was a problem. They sit next to each other during activities, apparently that is a problem too. They hang out in their group, which consists of my son and daughter, the girl, her BFF, another girl if she comes, another boy, and my other daughter if she is visiting. But apparently that is singling themselves out from everyone. However, when the other group (read clique) does it, that is apparently fine. If they catch them all hanging out in a room chatting and goofing off, it is scrutinized and reported... but not the other group. There are allegations flying of going off alone at an activity... but my daughter was there, and we have talked privately she assures me it wasn't them but another 2. People are going behind our backs and reporting this to the mother, who was my friend, and the Bishop- who is then pulling the mom into "chat"... but NOTHING is ever said to us.

 

All in all I am tired... and my head hurts. This has been going on and off for 5 months now, and personally I think it's ridiculous. At a Fireside, the Bishop told the kids that if a girl and a girl go to the mall, it's a date. If there is a birthday party, it is a date. If a family, like ours, meets up at the movies with another family... it's a date. I don't agree with this thinking. To me, it's just hanging out, getting together as a group, and having a good time... what is so wrong with this?? It's really made me question things tonight. It was one things when I thought I was just exercising my "free agency" in determining what was right for my kids and my family. But now that I realize it is actual scriptural doctrine, and I am actually breaking laws, rules or whatever... I have a problem with that. I have a pretty big conscience, and I can not do something that is against biblical faith or beliefs. It is no longer just about "dating", but about going against the presidency, so of course I wonder... is this really right for me and my family then?? We really seem to clash on some of these things, and I am not keen on giving over my right to raise my children to anyone (hello, I homeschool), so maybe I am wrong, and this isn't the right religion for us.

 

I am a convert, and I converted at 14. I was never really given a strong foundation in the church, and I've struggled with many of the rules and doctrine. The problem is this affects all of my children. I have one starting scouts next week, another who has a doctrine to read on Sunday, they have friends, etc... we have really been trying to throw ourselves into the life, but I am really beginning to wonder if this is the right path for our family.

[specialmama]

ummm... that is crazy. The Bible is the authority over any human being, church leader, etc. I'd be very cautious if I were you. It sounds like discernment is an issue and this is not a healthy church to be so controlling over things which are biblically a parent's responsibility. I'd go church shopping if you were you. ;)

[JoyfulMama]

Praying for you. :grouphug:

[amy g.]

My advice is to FLEE from that church.

[elegantlion]

:grouphug::grouphug: What about a girl who is friends with guys and not girls? That was me as a teen, all but two of friends were male and we went a lot of place together as platonic friends, they were never dates. :confused: Semantics, imo. If a date is two people of the opposite gender attending a function/even together then those were dates. If a date must have romantic/marriage intentions attached those were not date. we never considered them dates.

 

Sorry no advice about the traditions of your religion.:grouphug:

[TravelingChris]

Is your husband a member of this church? Does he agree with the dating rules and other rules? If not, I would talk with him about looking for another church. If you are single, I would take your misgivings as a message from God that you need to search out another church. It seems way too intrusive to me.

[Guest mrsjamiesouth]

I am praying for you.

[*********]

ummm... that is crazy. The Bible is the authority over any human being, church leader, etc. I'd be very cautious if I were you. It sounds like discernment is an issue and this is not a healthy church to be so controlling over things which are biblically a parent's responsibility. I'd go church shopping if you were you. ;)

 

My advice is to FLEE from that church.

 

:iagree:

[missesd]

Is your husband a member of this church? Does he agree with the dating rules and other rules? If not, I would talk with him about looking for another church. If you are single, I would take your misgivings as a message from God that you need to search out another church. It seems way too intrusive to me.

 

Yes he is... and he does agree with me. We have two opposite upbringings. His was very strict... at 18 he lost his mind!!! Drinking, drugs, eventually sex... which lead to getting someone pregnant and a miserable marriage for 8 years. He doesn't want to tighten down on his kids like that for that exact reason.

 

Me, I was in foster care for my teens. So I had no religious foundation, and they didn't really care what I did. I got into drinking and sex. I was lucky I never got pregnant till after marriage or an STD. For that reason, I want to allow my children *some* freedoms, but under my watchful eye.

 

I feel that this is the time to practice relationship skills. To navigate those hormones and feelings, while still having your parents to guide you and hopefully give you a moral compass, you know?? I have a VERY good and open relationship with my kids, and i want to keep it that way. If I make heavy handed decisions without considering their feelings, what is that teaching them? Will they consider mine when they are away from home? ill they want to talk to me?? Probably not. I feel it's best to be here while they learn these things BEFORE they leave my home. Otherwise they are out, perhaps in college, and all the advice they are getting are from 18, 19, 20 yr old peers. And I am pretty sure they are not going to care about their modesty and chastity as I would.

[bettyandbob]

It's a date when two families get together?

 

You have to cycle through all suitors? bizarre

 

It sounds like the church leaders are on a weird power trip.

 

It's time to leave.

 

I see nothing wrong with a completely chaperoned by parents outing and I think it's inappropriate for church leaders to usurp your parental authority. Time to leave this church. YMMV

[QueenCat]

I don't understand why your church is making parenting rules. That is very odd, to me, at least. I do understand teaching about morals, etc but parents decide how old their child can be when they date. I'd be fleeing a church that tried to control my family in such a way, it seems very legalistic. Do they tell you how to live your life in other ways that aren't biblical? Please know that it is impossible to know my tone but I'm really trying to ask these questions with kindness, not snarkiness.

[Lawana]

I PM'd you.

[katemary63]

Legalism destroys faith. I'd get out and find a good Bible believing Church. It is not Biblical for church leaders to micromanage your life.

[KidsHappen]

It sounds to me like it is time to find a new church that is more in keeping with your personal beliefs. :grouphug:

[Bird Girl]

I know that the LDS church handles things a little differently than other churches, but I wonder how much of the issue that you're seeing is more of gossip around the stake than actual church teaching. "Reporting" on one group of kids and leaving another group alone sounds like gossip, not teaching to me. It's not as if you are letting your son drive this girl around alone in the car, take her out places alone, and get into truly challenging situations. Hanging out and liking each other are not the same thing as dating.

 

Is there another stake near you? I don't know how difficult it would be to find another one. But perhaps these issues pertain more to your particular stake than the entire church.

 

How are you planning to handle the mission? Does your son feel strongly called to go?

[Julie in Austin]

Hm, your sig indicates that you are LDS but what you are describing are not the Church's teachings on dating. It is possible that your bishop is going overboard; it is also possible that you have misunderstood something.

 

In your situation, I'd get a copy of _For the Strength of Youth_ and make an appointment to chat with the bishop and seek some clarity on these things.

 

Birdgirl, LDS don't choose their stake or ward--those are assigned geographically.

[missesd]

I know that the LDS church handles things a little differently than other churches, but I wonder how much of the issue that you're seeing is more of gossip around the stake than actual church teaching. "Reporting" on one group of kids and leaving another group alone sounds like gossip, not teaching to me. It's not as if you are letting your son drive this girl around alone in the car, take her out places alone, and get into truly challenging situations. Hanging out and liking each other are not the same thing as dating.

 

Is there another stake near you? I don't know how difficult it would be to find another one. But perhaps these issues pertain more to your particular stake than the entire church.

 

How are you planning to handle the mission? Does your son feel strongly called to go?

 

I agree with what your saying. I've noticed our ward/stake is much more strict on things then others. But if you are LDS then you know how impossible it is just to go to another stake. Anytime we would need anything- baptism, ordinances, etc... it would all have to go through our assigned Bishop/ward.

 

As for the mission call, he doesn't feel particularly called, and I am alright with that. Our choice is to support them in whatever they chose to do. If he wants to go, then we will do everything we can to help him. If not, then that's ok too... it doesn't make him a bad person.

[missesd]

Hm, your sig indicates that you are LDS but what you are describing are not the Church's teachings on dating. It is possible that your bishop is going overboard; it is also possible that you have misunderstood something.

 

In your situation, I'd get a copy of _For the Strength of Youth_ and make an appointment to chat with the bishop and seek some clarity on these things.

 

Birdgirl, LDS don't choose their stake or ward--those are assigned geographically.

 

I am LDS, and I have read the FSOY, as well an article in The New Era. I believe this was recently addressed this in the last General Conference. But a lot of some of what I mentioned was taken strictly out of the Fireside our Bishop gave last Sunday. And I am not sure what he was teaching from :confused:

[missesd]

I PM'd you.

 

I saw that, and thank you... I have another one too. I'll reply to you both when I get a chance here in a bit :)

 

:grouphug:

[Catwoman]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

It almost sounds as though you're trying to force-fit yourself and your family into this church, even though you know in your heart that you don't believe in its intrusiveness and super-strict rules.

 

I can't imagine that you will ever be happy there, nor do I think it will be good for your dc, so my best advice is to try to find a new church, or even to worship at home if that's something you feel called to do.

 

I don't like the idea that the leaders of this particular church want to control your kids' actions outside of church, nor do I like the idea that they're telling you how to parent your own kids. Teaching kids to have good values and high morals is one thing; telling them that two girls can't go to the mall together because that would count as a date, and dating isn't allowed, is outrageous!

 

I hope you are able to find what you're looking for. :grouphug:

 

Cat

[Garga]

Nevermind. I just read the last couple of posts that you're assigned to this stake. I was going to suggest taking a look at how other churches did things in your denomination. But that's not an option for you.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Garga

[LittleIzumi]

Remember, people are people, no matter what religion. And people make a lot of mistakes. That is NOT doctrinal. At all. Seriously? Two girls going to the mall is a date?? I don't recall ever seeing that in FSOY, thanks :001_huh:. Or hearing it in GC. Or when my dad was a branch prez. Or in singles' wards. Or ever. That is absolutely not general church protocol/practice/opinion. I would ask him exactly where he was teaching from so you can see what was written and what he was... interpreting. That is so. not. doctrine.

Sometimes people do attend other wards than where they live but it would be better if this could be straightened out. Does the stake prez know your bishop is teaching this??

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[missesd]

Remember, people are people, no matter what religion. And people make a lot of mistakes. That is NOT doctrinal. At all. Seriously? Two girls going to the mall is a date?? I don't recall ever seeing that in FSOY, thanks :001_huh:. Or hearing it in GC. Or when my dad was a branch prez. Or in singles' wards. Or ever. That is absolutely not general church protocol/practice/opinion. I would ask him exactly where he was teaching from so you can see what was written and what he was... interpreting. That is so. not. doctrine.

Sometimes people do attend other wards than where they live but it would be better if this could be straightened out. Does the stake prez know your bishop is teaching this??

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

From what I understand a lot of what he was teaching in that youth Fireside came from here :

 

http://lds.org/churchmagazines/NE_2010_04_00___09244_000_000.pdf

 

For those that read this, that are not LDS, please understand anything said by Prophets or Apostles is supposed to be seen as current scripture.

[mom31257]

Do you have to follow the rules that your church sets up? Isn't something like your kids dating up to you and your husband and the family of the girl?

 

I'm not LDS, but I am a Christian. I've followed Christ since I was a very small girl and love Him with all my heart. I've never heard of a church telling parents the rules to set for their own families so this is very new to me. I've never attended a church that sponsored a dance, though, either. I have a really good friend who is LDS. I will ask her if her ward teaches the same way.

 

Are you allowed to meet with your leaders and discuss your concerns, or is that seen as questioning authority? I pray you are able to come to terms with what God would have you do.

[LittleIzumi]

Are you allowed to meet with your leaders and discuss your concerns, or is that seen as questioning authority? I pray you are able to come to terms with what God would have you do.

 

Absolutely :)

 

Off to read that....

[LittleIzumi]

Hmmm. I think he might have blown this (given six years ago!) all out of proportion: “When are you old enough? Maturity may vary from

individual to individual, but we are convinced that dating should not even begin until you are 16. And then, ideal dating is on a group basis. Stay in group activities; don’t pair off. Avoid steady dating. Steady dating is courtship, and surely the beginning of courtship ought to be delayed until you have emerged from your teens.â€

 

But not You must not sit next to each other, or You must rotate dates with everyone, etc. :glare: It's always been as quoted that I can remember. Stakes dances from 14 but not "dates" until 16, and group dating is always encouraged. There are no hard and fast weird rules about the things you said your bishop discussed. :001_huh:

[LittleIzumi]

"Dating is when two people of the opposite sex arrange to pair up with each other and participate in an activity."

 

Yup, two girls going to the mall is definitely not a date still. :tongue_smilie:

[Little Nyssa]

That particular church is too controlling. That's not healthy.

[LittleIzumi]

That particular church is too controlling. That's not healthy.

 

I definitely think this should be discussed with the stake president. I absolutely agree.

[missesd]

Do you have to follow the rules that your church sets up? Isn't something like your kids dating up to you and your husband and the family of the girl?

 

I'm not LDS, but I am a Christian. I've followed Christ since I was a very small girl and love Him with all my heart. I've never heard of a church telling parents the rules to set for their own families so this is very new to me. I've never attended a church that sponsored a dance, though, either. I have a really good friend who is LDS. I will ask her if her ward teaches the same way.

 

Are you allowed to meet with your leaders and discuss your concerns, or is that seen as questioning authority? I pray you are able to come to terms with what God would have you do.

 

Yes, you can. However because it has come down from the First Presidency, we are expected to follow it. We can ask questions, and our Bishop can explain their reasoning, but ultimately we are taught obedience to our leaders in their counsel. And therein lies my problem, it's not that I can't question... I can. I just don't agree...

 

Hmmm. I think he might have blown this (given six years ago!) all out of proportion: “When are you old enough? Maturity may vary from

individual to individual, but we are convinced that dating should not even begin until you are 16. And then, ideal dating is on a group basis. Stay in group activities; don’t pair off. Avoid steady dating. Steady dating is courtship, and surely the beginning of courtship ought to be delayed until you have emerged from your teens.â€

 

But not You must not sit next to each other, or You must rotate dates with everyone, etc. :glare: It's always been as quoted that I can remember. Stakes dances from 14 but not "dates" until 16, and group dating is always encouraged. There are no hard and fast weird rules about the things you said your bishop discussed. :001_huh:

 

Well right there, that confirms what he said about not dating until 20. The whole April 2010 edition is dedicated to dating. I've read up to page 6, I plan on reading it through tonight though and see where all this other stuff is coming from. The other stuff may be discussed as we get further into it. I do know my daughter and son just said that he even said a sleepover with girlfriends is considered a date :confused:

[Mesa]

You can get special permission to switch wards or stakes... We do not attend the ward we are supposed to be in.

[RanchGirl]

Are these rules something printed up and handed out and must be followed or you will be kicked out....or just some (hopefully misinterpreted) statements that the youth pastor (or LDS equivalent) gave your teens in a chatty type "dating guidelines" conversation. It sounds like you're doing a fine job with your kids... can you just ignore the gossip at church and keep doing a good job? You know your kids and you have the wisdom God gave you along with two examples of the two different extremes, seems like that's pretty darn good.

 

Honestly I don't think you need this stress with everything else you're going through, so unless someone is in your face about this, I would just keep doing your best and not worry about it.

[Xuzi]

Haven't read the whole thread, but I'm born-and-raised LDS, so I thought I'd chime in. :)

 

Your son will not be in trouble with the church for dating this young lady. :) Of course, if their relationship goes too far and they end up having sex or something, then that's something he'll deffinitely need some repenting from, but that would be true no matter what his age.

 

If the young man is recieving any pressure from the ward then it is up to him to pray about his situation and decide from there what to do about it. It his HIS (and her) agency that is involved in this decision. Nobody elses. The opinion of the ward in no way affects his standing before the Lord. :)

 

ETA: Just read a bit more. I think your Bishop is taking things to the extreme, IMO. He sounds like he's trying to set up "hedge laws" to keep the youth in line, and that's not good. The dating guidelines are just that: GUIDELINES. It is between this young man, his young lady, and the Lord where their relationship goes. The guidelines the church has put out are ones they feel will bring happiness to *most* members, but is in no way meant to be one-size-fits-all. Some teens can handle the pressure of an early courtship (because the longer you date, the stronger the temptation to bend the law of chastity becomes), and for some it can be too big of a temptation. They need to get to know themselves and know what they can and cannot handle, and make their decisions accordingly.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Xuzi

[Xuzi]

I also wanted to add, that I hope nobody gets the wrong impression of the LDS faith from this situation. I have never, in my 28 years in the church, experienced the kind of gossip and "reporting" that the OP is experiencing. I'm not saying she's lying or exagerating, I do believe that she is unfortunately in a very "letter of the law" Stake, but it is not the norm in the LDS church and does NOT fit in with LDS doctrine and teaching (which is why all the other LDS posters in this thread thus far have expressed shock and surprise at what she's dealing with). We have our less-than-stellar members and congregations and leaders just like any other church or organization.

[missesd]

Are these rules something printed up and handed out and must be followed or you will be kicked out....or just some (hopefully misinterpreted) statements that the youth pastor (or LDS equivalent) gave your teens in a chatty type "dating guidelines" conversation. It sounds like you're doing a fine job with your kids... can you just ignore the gossip at church and keep doing a good job? You know your kids and you have the wisdom God gave you along with two examples of the two different extremes, seems like that's pretty darn good.

 

Honestly I don't think you need this stress with everything else you're going through, so unless someone is in your face about this, I would just keep doing your best and not worry about it.

 

I wish it was. From what I have read in that issue of the New Era, the one the Bishop used in his Fireside, it is group dating at 16. But they have dances at 14?? Dating at 16 is supposed to be no more then "friendship" and no boyfriends/girlfriends, which I think is a little unrealistic in this day and age. I would rather the kids were open and honest about their feelings with me, then hide it because it is not "church counsel". Then they go onto say that single dating shouldn't be considered until you are of an age to marry, which would be 18... but by then there are not out of my house, and should feelings get racing and they don't know how to navigate them or stop, they have no one to really turn to but their peers, who may see no issues with premarital sex as they have done it before and so has many of their friends. Talking to your parents about sex and the feelings associated with arousal is awkward enough, but being here when they get home seeing that flushed look and sparkly eyes, you kinda know it's time to have some talks. Then again, they go onto say you should seriously date till out of your teens, now that's 20. And if your a guy, not until you get back from your mission, which would be 21... however, I have known girls who have waited for their Mormon missionary boyfriends. The whole things is confusing, and I am only on page 38. It seems that the counsel/doctrine is confusing. But honestly, when it comes right down to it, I feel *I* should be deciding when my children date and no one else. there is a part in there that says, "“How unfortunate to resent counsel and restraint. How fortunate are you who follow the standards of the Church,

even if just from sheer obedience or habit." That doesn't exactly make me sound good because I am resistant to the church's counsel and feel it is my duty and obligation to set those boundaries and no one elses.

 

As for the gossip, if it was just that, yes I could ignore it. But the mother of the daughter and her father support this counsel. As you can see we are on differing sides, each with a child in the middle of all these feelings, hurt and upset about the dictations being set upon them... when really I feel they are doing nothing wrong, and are pretty innocent in everything all things considered. It's a small ward, so people reporting to her and not informing me of their concerns feels like I am being ostracized because I am not following counsel. Bishops going and talking to one parent and ignoring the other, meanwhile storms are brewing... well it's kind of hard to ignore that too :(

[Catwoman]

I also wanted to add, that I hope nobody gets the wrong impression of the LDS faith from this situation.

 

I have to admit that I know almost nothing of the LDS faith, but I assumed that this situation was an anomaly, and that it didn't reflect any sort of norm. I definitely didn't get a negative impression of the faith in general.

 

I still can't believe that if two girls go somewhere together, it's considered a date in this particular church. Sounds like one of the church leaders watches way too much Ellen, or else has a very dirty mind!

 

Cat

[missesd]

ETA: Just read a bit more. I think your Bishop is taking things to the extreme, IMO. He sounds like he's trying to set up "hedge laws" to keep the youth in line, and that's not good. The dating guidelines are just that: GUIDELINES. It is between this young man, his young lady, and the Lord where their relationship goes. The guidelines the church has put out are ones they feel will bring happiness to *most* members, but is in no way meant to be one-size-fits-all. Some teens can handle the pressure of an early courtship (because the longer you date, the stronger the temptation to bend the law of chastity becomes), and for some it can be too big of a temptation. They need to get to know themselves and know what they can and cannot handle, and make their decisions accordingly.

 

This is exactly what I thought and felt as well... "guidelines". I sent an e-mail to my Bishop tonight, that pretty much stated that while I understood WHY the counsl was there, I didn't feel it was for everyone. Some parents really have NO clue how to deal with their children/teens... and need the church's guidance and counsel, I understand that. BUT, just as some people are natural born leaders, or doctors, some of us were born to be parents. This is my calling. These spirits were given to me because *I* would know best how to lead them, and guide them, and no one should take away my agency in that, or make me feel bad for parenting decisions I feel called to make.

 

I also wanted to add, that I hope nobody gets the wrong impression of the LDS faith from this situation. I have never, in my 28 years in the church, experienced the kind of gossip and "reporting" that the OP is experiencing. I'm not saying she's lying or exagerating, I do believe that she is unfortunately in a very "letter of the law" Stake, but it is not the norm in the LDS church and does NOT fit in with LDS doctrine and teaching (which is why all the other LDS posters in this thread thus far have expressed shock and surprise at what she's dealing with). We have our less-than-stellar members and congregations and leaders just like any other church or organization.

 

:iagree: I have been in other wards and stakes, and while I do love mine and have said so, I too have never experienced this. My husband's father was a Bishop in the same stake 5 years ago. His youngest brother is only 23, so not that long out of the YM program... and they've never experienced this either. It was pretty straight forward- group dating at 14 and single dating at 16... somewhere along the lines that changed, but I do think how you "enforce it" or teach it is all in the individual leaders of each stake/ward.

[Xuzi]

I wish it was. From what I have read in that issue of the New Era, the one the Bishop used in his Fireside, it is group dating at 16. But they have dances at 14?? Dating at 16 is supposed to be no more then "friendship" and no boyfriends/girlfriends, which I think is a little unrealistic in this day and age. I would rather the kids were open and honest about their feelings with me, then hide it because it is not "church counsel". Then they go onto say that single dating shouldn't be considered until you are of an age to marry, which would be 18... but by then there are not out of my house, and should feelings get racing and they don't know how to navigate them or stop, they have no one to really turn to but their peers, who may see no issues with premarital sex as they have done it before and so has many of their friends. Talking to your parents about sex and the feelings associated with arousal is awkward enough, but being here when they get home seeing that flushed look and sparkly eyes, you kinda know it's time to have some talks. Then again, they go onto say you should seriously date till out of your teens, now that's 20. And if your a guy, not until you get back from your mission, which would be 21... however, I have known girls who have waited for their Mormon missionary boyfriends. The whole things is confusing, and I am only on page 38. It seems that the counsel/doctrine is confusing. But honestly, when it comes right down to it, I feel *I* should be deciding when my children date and no one else. there is a part in there that says, "“How unfortunate to resent counsel and restraint. How fortunate are you who follow the standards of the Church,

even if just from sheer obedience or habit." That doesn't exactly make me sound good because I am resistant to the church's counsel and feel it is my duty and obligation to set those boundaries and no one elses.

 

As for the gossip, if it was just that, yes I could ignore it. But the mother of the daughter and her father support this counsel. As you can see we are on differing sides, each with a child in the middle of all these feelings, hurt and upset about the dictations being set upon them... when really I feel they are doing nothing wrong, and are pretty innocent in everything all things considered. It's a small ward, so people reporting to her and not informing me of their concerns feels like I am being ostracized because I am not following counsel. Bishops going and talking to one parent and ignoring the other, meanwhile storms are brewing... well it's kind of hard to ignore that too :(

I'm so sorry you're dealing with all of this confusion. :(

 

In my ward growing up, when the council was very much the same, there were a *lot* of 16 year olds who had steady boyfriends. Nothing was ever said to them about it (that I ever saw or heard about, but I was in a small ward too, so I very likely *would* have heard). We were informed of the church's council for dating was, but that we had our agency. Some parents were *very* strict in not allowing their kids to date, and others just encouraged that they not allow a "steady" relationship to become too all-consuming, as teen relationships are sometimes prone to do. One of my friends was even engaged at not-quiet-17 (ended up "Dear John"ing the guy when he was on his mission :tongue_smilie:) and nobody said anything beyond the typical "Wow, so young!" and it didn't affect the young man's mission call.

 

I hope you're able to nagivate all this drama that's brewing in your ward. I'm so sorry your son is being dragged through it. :( It's not what Christ would want happening in His church.

[Xuzi]

I still can't believe that if two girls go somewhere together, it's considered a date in this particular church. Sounds like one of the church leaders watches way too much Ellen, or else has a very dirty mind!

 

Cat

I can't believe that either! Both my husband and I are born-and-raised LDS, and got a good laugh out of that bit of "council" the OP's bishop gave! NEVER heard it mentioned in church, EVER! :lol:

[Catwoman]

I sent an e-mail to my Bishop tonight, that pretty much stated that while I understood WHY the counsl was there, I didn't feel it was for everyone. Some parents really have NO clue how to deal with their children/teens... and need the church's guidance and counsel, I understand that. BUT, just as some people are natural born leaders, or doctors, some of us were born to be parents. This is my calling. These spirits were given to me because *I* would know best how to lead them, and guide them, and no one should take away my agency in that, or make me feel bad for parenting decisions I feel called to make.

 

I think you did the right thing by sending the email, and I'm sure you phrased it beautifully. I hope everything works out well for you, as I can tell that this is a very difficult and stressful situation for you and your family.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Cat

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

As for the gossip, if it was just that, yes I could ignore it. But the mother of the daughter and her father support this counsel. As you can see we are on differing sides, each with a child in the middle of all these feelings, hurt and upset about the dictations being set upon them... when really I feel they are doing nothing wrong, and are pretty innocent in everything all things considered.

 

I'm not LDS and so won't even try to speak to any of that. But don't you think that the young lady's mom and dad should be directing their own daughter according to their own conscience even if you and your son (and even the girl) disagree with it? If they don't want her to be exclusive (and it sounds like the young people are exclusive even if they are in group settings) then you need to encourage her to obey her parents.

[snipsnsnailsx5]

I am also a convert into this church - just two yrs now. So having lived my whole life, up until two years ago, not in this church - its been difficult I won't lie.

However, the amazingly strong feelings I've had about this church that I've never felt at another church - I can't deny. I've been to several churches before, and had no negative feelings towards them. I just never had that "aha" moment or whatever its called, to where I felt like it was "THE" church...until now. Just everything leading up until when we joined the church was undeniably something bigger at work. I can't ever deny that. And so when I have doubt about something, really the thought of ever leaving the church just makes me feel so alone and very sad. Maybe that's just me, I don't know. I just know how good I feel at church, doing church activities, and around the friends I've made there.

 

Still things come across that I have a hard time excepting. I've been surprised at hearing many testimonies of strong, active life-time members of this church who also have the same issues. Its not that these things are wrong, or weird, or whatever...but its hard in this time, this era, with all of the changes in society and messages shouting as us from everywhere (media, society, etc etc) to follow some of these directions from our church leaders. One hundred years ago, or whatever, it would have been pretty commonplace to have rules against what ages it was okay to have a girl and a boy go on dates alone together, or socialize together at all. Its just that now, in this era, that's not "normal". But we need to parent our children based on what we know and feel to be the best decisions for our family...not what our neighbors or friends are doing, but what we feel to be right.

 

This is what I do when I come upon something I really am confused about and don't know which way to feel, or what to do. I really pray about it. I know I know, we're told to pray about everything...but really. There was a talk one Sunday about parenting by the Holy Spirit. It was really inspiring. The person giving the talk said that she wished she had been doing that all along.

So trust in God, trust in the power of the Holy Ghost. Pray about it, and act on those answers you get from your prayers. If you don't get an answer right away...just wait a little longer and pray more. Listen carefully and closely.

 

*hugs* I hope this helps!

[missesd]

I'm not LDS and so won't even try to speak to any of that. But don't you think that the young lady's mom and dad should be directing their own daughter according to their own conscience even if you and your son (and even the girl) disagree with it? If they don't want her to be exclusive (and it sounds like the young people are exclusive even if they are in group settings) then you need to encourage her to obey her parents.

 

My problem isn't with them per se. My problem is that originally they were ok with things, they set boundaries... and we all followed. Then something would happen, nothing the kids did per se, just the mother would up and change things on a whim without any reason or notice. We'd all change things up and follow them. This has happened several times. It hurts my heart to see these two youth, who really have done nothing wrong, be continually scrutinized and punished.

 

Then there is the issue of people discussing how them dancing together has made them uncomfortable, or sitting next to each other, and going to report to her... never mentioning it to me or my husband. Not to mention, she was supposed to my friend, she never said a word. We had something happen in the very beginning and it was misconstrued, she messaged me immediately to let me know what happened and that she was upset. I felt that parent to parent that was the respectful thing to do. But now she bottles it up, and then implodes on everybody and none of us understand where it was coming from... she never talked to any of us, including the daughter.

 

And last but not least is the fact that the members of our very small ward are keeping tabs on every little move my kids make... where they sit, who with, and surrounding them and watching them as if they expect them to do something untoward in a room full of leaders. And the comments to the kids as well. Add to that that my Bishop also felt ok to talk to her parents but left us completely out of the loop and blindsided.

 

Essentially, and as I said in my first post this is a mess. This post was not about encouraging her not to obey her parents, but with the way things have gone, my problems with the very confusing and over restrictive doctrine, the fact that I feel my parental decisions aren't mine anymore and I am being judged for that, and where that leaves me with my religion and church is you can't get on board with counsel that has supposedly come down from our Prophet.

[Mekanamom]

It's a small ward, so people reporting to her and not informing me of their concerns feels like I am being ostracized because I am not following counsel. Bishops going and talking to one parent and ignoring the other, meanwhile storms are brewing... well it's kind of hard to ignore that too :(

 

 

:grouphug: I'm sorry the situation is being handled this way. :grouphug:

[Jean in Newcastle]

My problem isn't with them per se. My problem is that originally they were ok with things, they set boundaries... and we all followed. Then something would happen, nothing the kids did per se, just the mother would up and change things on a whim without any reason or notice. We'd all change things up and follow them. This has happened several times. It hurts my heart to see these two youth, who really have done nothing wrong, be continually scrutinized and punished.

 

Then there is the issue of people discussing how them dancing together has made them uncomfortable, or sitting next to each other, and going to report to her... never mentioning it to me or my husband. Not to mention, she was supposed to my friend, she never said a word. We had something happen in the very beginning and it was misconstrued, she messaged me immediately to let me know what happened and that she was upset. I felt that parent to parent that was the respectful thing to do. But now she bottles it up, and then implodes on everybody and none of us understand where it was coming from... she never talked to any of us, including the daughter.

 

And last but not least is the fact that the members of our very small ward are keeping tabs on every little move my kids make... where they sit, who with, and surrounding them and watching them as if they expect them to do something untoward in a room full of leaders. And the comments to the kids as well. Add to that that my Bishop also felt ok to talk to her parents but left us completely out of the loop and blindsided.

 

Essentially, and as I said in my first post this is a mess. This post was not about encouraging her not to obey her parents, but with the way things have gone, my problems with the very confusing and over restrictive doctrine, the fact that I feel my parental decisions aren't mine anymore and I am being judged for that, and where that leaves me with my religion and church is you can't get on board with counsel that has supposedly come down from our Prophet.

 

I agree, that sounds confusing and restrictive. I wish you well as you try to sort these things out for your family. :grouphug:

[snipsnsnailsx5]

Oops I don't think I fully addressed the original situation though.

 

Again, only two years new to the church, but I've never heard anything like this? I've heard about group dating at 14 and dating at 16. We've told our boys they can't date until they are 16. Even after 16..there will be strict rules. I worry about being too strict, but the thought of them dating scares me. Maybe because I got pregnant when I was 16...with my first son. And I was a "good girl"...compared to my friends. lol My parents were good people and we lived in a "good" house. I even got the abstinence talk. I can't explain why what happened, happened though. Probably because I fell into some "bad" friends and was rebelling against my parents for not letting me hang out with those friends (uhh rightfully so).

 

Anyway, so dating scares me. My oldest is almost 12...thankfully I have a few years? aaack!

[Abigail4476]

I wouldn't be part of a church that was so overly involved in personal lives, but that aside:

 

* I see no point in kids dating unless they're romantically interested in each other. Otherwise, it's just called "hanging out." It's not a date if you're just friends. :glare:

 

* Our girls can group date at 16 and at 18 they get to single date; that's just because we want them out of high school before they start getting distracted. My husband would make it college age if I would let him, but thank goodness my girls have a mother. :D

 

Bottom line: your family and your family's values should be deciding what is acceptable in this arena; not your church.

[RanchGirl]

It all sounds very confusing and unclear. And honestly couldn't it possibly just be that the 14 yo's parents are getting concerned about how serious things are getting with their young daughter and her older boyfriend? (not that he's not a wonderful, upstanding young man of integrity!!)

 

I would just let the parents of the 14 year old decide what their daughter should do, whether it's changed or not, whether it's based on church/church leader/Bible teachings or not. You decide what your son is allowed to do, and if he is allowed to do more than her, he has to decide if he would rather date someone is own age or who has less restrictive rules, etc..... but I wouldn't put too much more drama into it personally. I certainly wouldn't let the church leader decide how to parent my kid, nor would I tell the parents of the 14yo how to do their thing.

[StephanieZ]

Seems to me that you are struggling with your faith.

 

I am not LDS, could never be LDS, but have lived among many wonderful LDS (Logan, UT) folks who became dear friends, and have some current LDS friends as well. Having lived in UT, I came to appreciate some of the unique blessings of the LDS communities & families. Lots of great folks, for sure.

 

(Honestly, if dh & I could have swallowed LDS doctrine at all, we'd have loved to have stayed in UT, raised a family there, and lived in that beautiful state forever. But, we could never even consider it -- we are *way* too independent, scientific, liberal and theologically symbolic/allegorical vs. literal minded.)

 

So, anyway, I prefaced with that b/c I don't want to come across as LDS bashing. I am NOT. However, many faiths, LDS being one of them, require strict obedience to seeming-to-outsiders random rules. I actually googled mind control techniques after reading this thread, b/c that's what those kind of rules make me think of. That gut-level-rejection of rules-based-religions takes *many* beautiful and wonderful religions off the table for our family. It just *is not right for us*. IMHO, that does NOT mean it's not right for you or for many, many other people.

 

So, anyway, I'd suggest you work on this issue in your own heart & with your husband as you would any faith-crisis. However you do that, I don't know. (I know what I'd do, but I don't know that it'd work for anyone else.)

 

But, it seems to me that in your church, you need to simply obey. Or, else. Could you move to another ward? (One you know is less controlling?) Would that be less disruptive than leaving the church? Is it worth a try?

 

Personally, I see both sides of the dating-age issues. I think the two-families-getting-together or the two-girls-going-to-the-mall issues as INSANE. I trust your local leader is confused & it will be clarified soon enough. If not, well, then I think that is really sick, but that's just me. (Why discourage deep friendships? That sounds like wacky public school talk. . .)

 

In my world-view, it would be perfectly fine to change churches. Or to opt out of church completely for a while. But, I don't believe you'd go to hell (or any lesser level of heaven) for that. . . Or that it would disrupt the eternal union of your family. . . Or. . . Or. . .

 

So, what do you believe?? Pray on that. Meditate on that. Talk to your husband.

 

(((hugs)))

[sbgrace]

:grouphug: I'm wishing (and praying) for clarity and peace for you in the wrestling with these spiritual level issues.

 

On the 14 yo's mom, though, I can kind of see why she might be changing her mind and acting erratic. I read that link and it seems like the parents of the girl might be getting a lot of pressure you don't know about given she's not 16 and she's clearly doing what they define as dating it sounds like? If I'm reading it she's in violation of the guidelines, correct? Beyond that I would be nervous if my 14 year old daughter was feeling serious about a boy (of any age/no matter how nice) and he serious about her. It would worry me. Actually, it would worry me for my son as well though. We're not LDS and so I can't speak to all of that but in my home growing up we couldn't date until 16 and I wouldn't let my children date until 16 either. I do get your concern about first real dating experiences being with no parental oversight as well.

Edited December 3, 2010 by sbgrace