Amazon controversy

[Miss Peregrine]

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/pedophilia-book-amazon-sparks-outrage/story?id=12111987

 

What do you think?

[Violet Crown]

I think some people at Amazon need to learn that "The state ought not to censor written materials" does not somehow lead to "It is wrong for a bookseller to censor written materials." Like many people, they're throwing around the word "censorship" as if it's an innately bad thing.

[mommybee]

*****

Edited November 12, 2010 by mommybee

[Chris in VA]

:iagree: with Sharon.

 

I think it crosses a line. I'm pretty sure that subject matter is socially unacceptable in our culture. It's as if someone wrote a book on how to physically abuse your wife but not leave scars or something.

You can write whatever you want to.

You can read whatever you want to.

But you don't have to sell everything or make it easy to obtain such carp.

This country has already drawn the line at kiddie porn--I don't see how this is different, and I would expect the Amazon CEO to be aware of that.

 

I wouldn't call that censorship.

I call it discernment.

[mommybee]

If you want to see what I mean just go to the Kindle store and look for Michael Savage.

[Mom2GirlsTX]

That book should be censored. Since when is harming children okay?

The whole thing is disgusting.

 

I love Amazon, but this makes me loose total respect for them as a company.

[frankcassiesmom]

A privately owned bookstore making a responsible choice that protects children by not carrying that book is NOT censorship.

[Debbie in OR]

Pedophilia (aside from being abhorrent) is a crime and therefore trumps the author(s) rights to not be censored.

 

(Just curious if they would have listed it if it had been a book on "How to Pirate Kindle Books"?)

Edited November 10, 2010 by Debbie in OR

[Mommy22alyns]

I think it crosses a line. I'm pretty sure that subject matter is socially unacceptable in our culture. It's as if someone wrote a book on how to physically abuse your wife but not leave scars or something.

You can write whatever you want to.

You can read whatever you want to.

But you don't have to sell everything or make it easy to obtain such carp.

This country has already drawn the line at kiddie porn--I don't see how this is different, and I would expect the Amazon CEO to be aware of that.

 

I wouldn't call that censorship.

I call it discernment.

 

 

Exactly. This is disgusting.

[LittleIzumi]

Pedophilia (aside from being abhorrent) is a crime and therefore trumps the author(s) rights to not be censored.

 

 

That's what I thought (after "excuse me while I vomit")--it's not objectionable, it's ILLEGAL!

[Excelsior! Academy]

I really thought that nothing in printed material suprised me anymore. I. was. wrong.

[Gooblink]

"Amazon believes it is censorship not to sell certain books simply because we or others believe their message is objectionable."

 

I think that's a load of BS. It's not censorship for a company to choose to not sell a book. Censorship is the government preventing one from printing/writing/distributing the book. As a pp said, a company choosing to not carry objectionable (not even a strong enough word for condoning and encouraging an illegal act against children) material is discernment, behaving responsibly, doing the right thing - not censorship.

[katemary63]

 

I wouldn't call that censorship.

I call it discernment.

 

:iagree: This "book" is revolting and any company that sells it is revolting. I am done with Amazon.

[scrappyhappymama]

My guess is that Amazon will pull this book, with humblest apologies.... in a few days, after they've cleared a few million $$ from all the downloads generated from the controversy. :glare:

 

The censorship argument just makes me wanna gak. Seriously? If they are SO concerned about censorship, perhaps they should quit "censoring" the sale of kiddy porn dvds as well? Go ahead Amazon. I'm sure the FBI will be very interested in your stand against censorship.

[Spy Car]

A privately owned bookstore making a responsible choice that protects children by not carrying that book is NOT censorship.

 

:iagree:

 

Bill

[Mejane]

I agree there's a big difference between government censorship and a private business choosing not to sell something.

 

Those who are opposed to it should let their wallet do the talking. Write to Amazon and tell them why you'll no longer be ordering from them. If they lose enough customers behind it, they may pull the book.

[teamturner]

Pedophilia (aside from being abhorrent) is a crime and therefore trumps the author(s) rights to not be censored.

 

(Just curious if they would have listed it if it had been a book on "How to Pirate Kindle Books"?)

 

:iagree: Deciding not to sell a book that deals with a subject that is against the law in the first place? Does this book have a publisher?

[jenL]

This makes me utterly sick. I am so disappointed with Amazon.

[NanceXToo]

I agree there's a big difference between government censorship and a private business choosing not to sell something.

 

Those who are opposed to it should let their wallet do the talking. Write to Amazon and tell them why you'll no longer be ordering from them. If they lose enough customers behind it, they may pull the book.

 

Yep. And already done.

[jujsky]

:iagree: with Sharon.

 

I think it crosses a line. I'm pretty sure that subject matter is socially unacceptable in our culture. It's as if someone wrote a book on how to physically abuse your wife but not leave scars or something.

You can write whatever you want to.

You can read whatever you want to.

But you don't have to sell everything or make it easy to obtain such carp.

This country has already drawn the line at kiddie porn--I don't see how this is different, and I would expect the Amazon CEO to be aware of that.

 

I wouldn't call that censorship.

I call it discernment.

 

:iagree: You agree with Sharon, and I agree with you!

[Abigail4476]

My guess is that Amazon will pull this book, with humblest apologies.... in a few days, after they've cleared a few million $$ from all the downloads generated from the controversy. :glare:

 

The censorship argument just makes me wanna gak. Seriously? If they are SO concerned about censorship, perhaps they should quit "censoring" the sale of kiddy porn dvds as well? Go ahead Amazon. I'm sure the FBI will be very interested in your stand against censorship.

 

I don't think so. Amazon has done this before.

 

A similar incident occurred in 2002:

 

"In 2002, Amazon.com cited the First Amendment as justification for offering another book that advocates adult-child sex, "Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers," by David L. Riegel. Further, the paperback book is still available on the site. At that time, Amazon stated, "Our goal is to support freedom of expression and to provide customers with the broadest selection possible so they can find, discover, and buy any title they might be seeking." An Amazon employee emphasized that "Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers" was "not a 'how-to' manual for molesting children. The author simply expresses his point of view about what he feels are misunderstood." --http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40112145/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/

 

The 2002 book "Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers" has a "look inside" feature on Amazon. Those who aren't faint of heart, click on "First Pages" and look at what THAT book is advocating. It's most definitely about more than just "understanding."

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

:ack2:

 

Amazon needs to stop carrying that book. They also need to fix any search engines so that their can be parental controls.

[pdalley]

You know, I think I'll buy a Nook now. I was really wanting a Kindle but this has pretty much made me decide to boycott Amazon. And we used to spend a lot with them every Christmas.

 

That book advocates something that is ILLEGAL! (not to mention morally reprehensible) Amazon clearly doesn't understand the definition of censorship. They are not the government. They are a private business that can pick and choose what they sell. Just as I can choose not to do business with them.

 

And yes, I'm emailing and calling them with an itemized list of things I WOULD have bought from them this Christmas. Cause I'm ornery that way.

[MariannNOVA]

My husband and I are shocked and sickened by this. I've ordered my last three books from Amazon as far as I am concerned.

 

Jeff Bezos and dh were classmates at Princeton. DH is drafting a letter to the Princeton Alumni Weekly. Probably won't even get published, but there is little that shocks dh, and he is shocked.

 

Like anything else, vote with your feet (or your wallet). I will not buy anything from Amazon while these publications are available through them.

 

Nooks for everyone for Christmas!

Edited November 11, 2010 by MariannNOVA

[mcconnellboys]

Wow, well, first of all I didn't realize Amazon allowed people to self-publish. Secondly, the author says that he's not "defending" pedophilia, then he goes on to do just that. While people may "mature" differently, a child is a child is a child and for adults to pursue a sexual relationship with a child is wrong. It's wrong if you're a school teacher; it's wrong if you're a proclaimed pedophile; it's wrong if you're immature; it's wrong. Period. There is no excuse.

 

I'd like to also be able to say that such involvement is illegal in every state of the union, but unfortunately that is not the case....

[Laurie4b]

"Private company refusing to sell book = censorship" is total bullcrap.

[SBMama]

Wrote to them with my complaint and asked that they close my account. Since they've had the other book on their site since 2002, I don't see them removing either of them.

[MariannNOVA]

Wrote to them with my complaint and asked that they close my account. Since they've had the other book on their site since 2002, I don't see them removing either of them.

 

I did the same thing. And, unfortunately, I think you are right. I am disgusted with them.

[lisamarie]

Wow. This is one boycott that would really hurt. I buy SO much off amazon. Usually when I choose to boycott a store, it's not big deal because there are 3 others just like it in my area. But amazon? That's my #1 shopping center. But I just cannot condone a business that sells that tripe.:001_huh:

[OregonNative]

I'm sorry, but censorship should apply to this subject!! It involves an illegal act with a minor! I'm appalled.

[Mimm]

I'm curious about people who are planning to boycott Amazon for this. Apparently Amazon already sold a book about this very subject (that boy love book... looked it up, disturbing stuff). They also sell books advocating a wide variety of political, social and religious views that would be reprehensible to anyone with any kind of opinion. There are also works of fiction being sold by Amazon that have truly revolting scenes (including scenes of child molestation). And none of this was enough for a boycott? Why is this book the proverbial last straw? Were you happy enough to shop at Amazon when they're selling all these other books, some of which are every bit as reprehensible as this one?

[SBMama]

Apparently I have not searched that far and wide on Amazon. I suppose it is ignorant, but the subject of what Amazon does and does not sell has never crossed my mind prior to this recent news.

[kwickimom]

I'm curious about people who are planning to boycott Amazon for this. Apparently Amazon already sold a book about this very subject (that boy love book... looked it up, disturbing stuff). They also sell books advocating a wide variety of political, social and religious views that would be reprehensible to anyone with any kind of opinion. There are also works of fiction being sold by Amazon that have truly revolting scenes (including scenes of child molestation). And none of this was enough for a boycott? Why is this book the proverbial last straw? Were you happy enough to shop at Amazon when they're selling all these other books, some of which are every bit as reprehensible as this one?

 

I had NO idea about all this at all. My account is going bye. I will not support a site that sells that trash. My money will NOT be a part of that stuff

[pdalley]

I'm curious about people who are planning to boycott Amazon for this. Apparently Amazon already sold a book about this very subject (that boy love book... looked it up, disturbing stuff). They also sell books advocating a wide variety of political, social and religious views that would be reprehensible to anyone with any kind of opinion. There are also works of fiction being sold by Amazon that have truly revolting scenes (including scenes of child molestation). And none of this was enough for a boycott? Why is this book the proverbial last straw? Were you happy enough to shop at Amazon when they're selling all these other books, some of which are every bit as reprehensible as this one?

 

Wasn't aware of them. I am now. That's the difference. I don't search every single book Amazon carries. I generally stick to homeschooling stuff or related materials. That is probably why this or the other didn't register on my radar before now.

 

I'm very picky about fiction. I re-read several books over and over again. I haven't seen any recent fiction I'd consider purchasing.

 

Pedophilia is - IMO - evil. A how to manual is beyond the pale and that's what the author described his book as being about. The other one is just as horrible.

 

I don't have a problem spending my money elsewhere. I can get Ibooks, books on a Nook, etc without a Kindle or purchasing from Amazon. There's Albris for rare books and Ebay.

 

Not my loss. Amazons. Might make searching for specific things harder but I'd ever pay a bit more to avoid a company who hides behind 'censorship' when it comes to a book that promotes illegal and morally repugnant activity.

[MariannNOVA]

Apparently I have not searched that far and wide on Amazon. I suppose it is ignorant, but the subject of what Amazon does and does not sell has never crossed my mind prior to this recent news.

 

This.

 

I had NO idea about all this at all. My account is going bye. I will not support a site that sells that trash. My money will NOT be a part of that stuff

 

This.

 

Wasn't aware of them. I am now. That's the difference. I don't search every single book Amazon carries. I generally stick to homeschooling stuff or related materials. That is probably why this or the other didn't register on my radar before now.

 

I'm very picky about fiction. I re-read several books over and over again. I haven't seen any recent fiction I'd consider purchasing.

 

Pedophilia is - IMO - evil. A how to manual is beyond the pale and that's what the author described his book as being about. The other one is just as horrible.

 

I don't have a problem spending my money elsewhere. I can get Ibooks, books on a Nook, etc without a Kindle or purchasing from Amazon. There's Albris for rare books and Ebay.

 

Not my loss. Amazons. Might make searching for specific things harder but I'd ever pay a bit more to avoid a company who hides behind 'censorship' when it comes to a book that promotes illegal and morally repugnant activity.

 

And this. And if Jeff is at Reunions in the spring, I will definitely give him an earful.

[Mimm]

Oh, I agree that the book and everything it seems to advocates is reprehensible (I haven't read it, but the title is nauseating enough). But Barnes and Noble, I'm sure, has plenty of objectionable books. Not this particular one perhaps, but if I felt strongly enough to boycott one bookstore, I would certainly be familiarizing myself with the collection of my new bookstore-of-choice before spending more money there.

[Imprimis]

I did boycott Amazon several years ago when I found out about the "boy" book mentioned in some of the other posts. I did NOT purchase anything from them for close to 3 years. I honestly wish I did not start giving them my business again.

 

I spend a lot of money on books, mostly from B&N, but started using Amazon again---mainly for purchases other than books.

 

I have decided I cannot, with good conscience, purchase anything else from Amazon while they continue to market this unimaginable filth.

 

The few dollars I could save buying from them is just not worth it to me.

[NanceXToo]

Apparently I have not searched that far and wide on Amazon. I suppose it is ignorant, but the subject of what Amazon does and does not sell has never crossed my mind prior to this recent news.

 

:iagree:

[MariannNOVA]

Oh, I agree that the book and everything it seems to advocates is reprehensible (I haven't read it, but the title is nauseating enough). But Barnes and Noble, I'm sure, has plenty of objectionable books. Not this particular one perhaps, but if I felt strongly enough to boycott one bookstore, I would certainly be familiarizing myself with the collection of my new bookstore-of-choice before spending more money there.

 

A couple of thoughts: Being a brick and mortar store, B&N does have an 'actual' community where they do their business. There are likely community standards as far as 'objectionable' and 'get that piece of filth off your shelves.'

 

I searched B&N, the title that is discussed here today (not the 2002 title - I did not search for that one) cannot be had from them.

 

Back to the 'community' thing -- it takes a village, you know. This was not on my radar before this evening, but it is now. I daresay, it wasn't on the radar of alot of folks until today, but it is now. The fact that I am taking a stand and others are taking a stand is what is necessary. My sitting here wondering how to 'know' what is on every bookseller's shelves will accomplish nothing. I can only do what I know how to do. Spend my money elsewhere, and tell others why I am doing that.

 

ETA: If you are on Facebook, you can make your voice heard about this.

Edited November 11, 2010 by MariannNOVA

[LaissezFaire]

While Amazon may have had the other book for sale for years, it was before social networking. This story is absolutely viral now and I have a feeling that Amazon is going to see sales ( And kindle sales especially) plummet. The Kindle is their cash cow and I think it's milk just dried up. Unless they remove the book.

 

I am aghast that this can even be sold.

[justamouse]

It's the freedom of free speech in action.

 

While I find the subject horrific, and think we should shelter our children from people like this (and from corporations trying to manipulate children with free toys)--people in the McDonald's thread think that the Government should have no say in thier lives and want freedom from government. So, the book should stay... and so should the toys in the happy meals. :confused:

[NanceXToo]

I searched B&N, the title that is discussed here today (not the 2002 title - I did not search for that one) cannot be had from them.

 

Well, I was curious after your post, so I looked on B&N to see if they had the 2002 title and they didn't. There were a couple of other books by that author but all of them said something about "a new copy is not available from barnes and noble.com at this time" or some such.

 

The one mentioned here wasn't listed at all.

[SBMama]

It's the freedom of free speech in action.

 

While I find the subject horrific, and think we should shelter our children from people like this (and from corporations trying to manipulate children with free toys)--people in the McDonald's thread think that the Government should have no say in thier lives and want freedom from government. So, the book should stay... and so should the toys in the happy meals. :confused:

 

But I'm not talking about the government here. I'm talking about Amazon, a company that is free to choose what they do and do not sell.

[MariannNOVA]

Well, I was curious after your post, so I looked on B&N to see if they had the 2002 title and they didn't. There were a couple of other books by that author but all of them said something about "a new copy is not available from barnes and noble.com at this time" or some such.

 

The one mentioned here wasn't listed at all.

 

Thanks for following up -- I do think that the fact that Barnes and Noble has a community presence (heck, Starbucks runs out of their stores) may have something to do with their not stocking this. I may be wrong, but I have no doubt that folks would be outside the stores here marching and carrying signs.

Thanks again.

[Audrey]

:iagree: Deciding not to sell a book that deals with a subject that is against the law in the first place? Does this book have a publisher?

 

 

The article says the book is "self-published."

 

As for boycotting Amazon... I stopped shopping at Amazon years ago because a book shop opened in my little town and wanted to spend my money with people I knew instead of a faceless entity. I was already disgusted by the fact that Amazon sells that "how-to-be-a-better-baby-beater" book by the Pearls, but that wasn't my motivation for taking my business elsewhere. Amazon sells pretty much any and every book that comes down the pike in one fashion or another, whether themselves, or through their network of resellers.

 

I do not think that the choice of books they sell equals censorship. I think they are indiscriminate, and in this case indecent, about what they sell. A REAL bookstore, on the other hand, will pick and choose its stock to suit its customer base. That isn't censorship. That's business sense. I don't care if it costs a little more to buy at a real store. When you see things like this pedophile book on Amazon, a few extra bucks a book doesn't really matter anymore. And, when I can't afford it, I go to the library.

[justamouse]

The article says the book is "self-published."

 

As for boycotting Amazon... I stopped shopping at Amazon years ago because a book shop opened in my little town and wanted to spend my money with people I knew instead of a faceless entity. I was already disgusted by the fact that Amazon sells that "how-to-be-a-better-baby-beater" book by the Pearls, but that wasn't my motivation for taking my business elsewhere. Amazon sells pretty much any and every book that comes down the pike in one fashion or another, whether themselves, or through their network of resellers.

 

I do not think that the choice of books they sell equals censorship. I think they are indiscriminate, and in this case indecent, about what they sell. A REAL bookstore, on the other hand, will pick and choose its stock to suit its customer base. That isn't censorship. That's business sense. I don't care if it costs a little more to buy at a real store. When you see things like this pedophile book on Amazon, a few extra bucks a book doesn't really matter anymore. And, when I can't afford it, I go to the library.

 

But people want corporations to sell whatever they can to make a buck! :tongue_smilie:

 

I don't disagree with you, but I still shop at Amazon. Why? Because they have the niche books I'm looking for. The out of print books that I need for history. And, Amazon has a very Long Tail. Now, when I know that my mom and pop will carry something, I go buy it from them, but for the majority, I buy homeschooling stuff that mom and pop won't have.

[Audrey]

It's the freedom of free speech in action.

 

While I find the subject horrific, and think we should shelter our children from people like this (and from corporations trying to manipulate children with free toys)--people in the McDonald's thread think that the Government should have no say in thier lives and want freedom from government. So, the book should stay... and so should the toys in the happy meals. :confused:

 

 

No, it isn't. Freedom of speech was never an issue here. The man can say anything he wants -- and he did -- in his self-published book. There ends any freedom of speech issue. He said it. He published it.

 

No one is obligated, however to listen to or read a single word he has to say. No store is obligated to sell his book. Bookstores refuse to carry all kinds of books all the time, for all kinds of reasons. One of the biggest reasons a book store chooses not to carry a book is because they believe it doesn't fit their customer base.

 

If every bookstore were required to carry every book published, then every bookstore would have to be the size of the New York Public Library. Even libraries are not obligated to carry every book that is published. Even libraries pick and choose books to fit what they have determined is their customer base. It is not blocking his freedom of speech to choose to carry other books and not his book. It is a reasonable and perfectly legal business decision.

 

Apparently, Amazon has made the business decision to court the pedophile customer base. :glare:

[justamouse]

But I'm not talking about the government here. I'm talking about Amazon, a company that is free to choose what they do and do not sell.

 

Amazon has a right to sell that author's book. Just like the author had a right to write it. McDonalds has a right to sell toys that lure kids into eating junk food.

 

Or not? See what I mean? Sauce for the goose. Where does the line in protection for children lie? Stop their predators--but isn't a company that wants to kill them slowly their predator, too? It just moves so slowly it takes 50 years to kill them?

[Audrey]

But people want corporations to sell whatever they can to make a buck! :tongue_smilie:

 

I don't disagree with you, but I still shop at Amazon. Why? Because they have the niche books I'm looking for. The out of print books that I need for history. And, Amazon has a very Long Tail. Now, when I know that my mom and pop will carry something, I go buy it from them, but for the majority, I buy homeschooling stuff that mom and pop won't have.

 

 

Ah, but mom and pop could order things in for you. It doesn't give the instant gratification that Amazon may offer, but you could still get your speciality items.

[justamouse]

No one is obligated, however to listen to or read a single word he has to say.

 

Right. So, just don't buy it. Just like you turn off a news channel you don't like. You don't boycott your TV (well, some do) for one show, do you?

 

No store is obligated to sell his book. Bookstores refuse to carry all kinds of books all the time, for all kinds of reasons. One of the biggest reasons a book store chooses not to carry a book is because they believe it doesn't fit their customer base.

 

But amazon is worldwide and who gets to decide who their customer base is?

 

Apparently, Amazon has made the business decision to court the pedophile customer base.

 

Yes, and no. If no one buys it, Amazon makes no $ and the author makes no $. Win win.

 

 

Here's the difference in my support of amazon's freedom and not wanting toys for happy meals.

 

1. it's hard to argue that a book is bad for you. Yes, there are bad books, but you have to READ them-where you have to THINK, that takes time, and you can make the authors obsolete--buy not buying their books, thus taking the power away from Amazon. Children, for the most part, eat what their parents give them. They have no choice. It's eat or be hungry. We have a choice in what books we buy and our $ has a lot more power in books. Boycotting McDs is a blip on their screen. Boycotting Amazon is a blip on their screen. Boycotting an author will destroy them. Amazon is a content carrier-McDs is a product manufacturer. Huge difference. Amazon doesn't directly manufacture their goods, their authors are independent contractors.