Sensitive question; parents only please

[KidsHappen]

It can be a big deal, especially if the doctor feels like it's time to do their mandatory reporting.

 

I agree. I would never mention such a thing to a dr. unless I trusted him completely based on a long relationship built up over time. As a matter of fact, even if I knew for a fact that my child was being molested, I would only go to dr.s that I knew and trusted absolutely. It is my honest and sincere belief that sometimes the response is much more traumatic that the orginal incident.

[lionfamily1999]

A pediatrician knows the difference between normal curiosity and molestation. If the Dr reports what happened it WOULD be based on more than what has been said here.

I would not personally take a child of mine to a Dr based on what was said here. I would discuss appropriate touch etc. and ask questions. But it sounds to me like since this Mom is upset that she is already over reacting. A 3 year old should not be treated like a molester. A pediatrician may be who she needs to hear that things are OK so she calms down. If there is more to the story than what has been told here there may need to be a visit to a Pediatrician to sort it all out.

I see your point, but I've just had bad experiences with m.r.s and that's has jaded my view ;)

References, please. To my knowlege, this is exactly what small children do.

 

Also, for those moms who swear their kids have never looked at or even been curious about their sibs or friends... my son told me just last year that he and a couple of the neighborhood boys had checked out each other's p*nises once five years earlier. I had no idea. My daughter was four or five when we found her in her room playing doctor with the little neighbor boy. It happens. Not saying one shouldn't keep an eye open, but don't blow it up out of proportion.

:iagree:

[GWOB]

References, please. To my knowlege, this is exactly what small children do.

 

Also, for those moms who swear their kids have never looked at or even been curious about their sibs or friends... my son told me just last year that he and a couple of the neighborhood boys had checked out each other's p*nises once five years earlier. I had no idea. My daughter was four or five when we found her in her room playing doctor with the little neighbor boy. It happens. Not saying one shouldn't keep an eye open, but don't blow it up out of proportion.

 

 

I cannot give you a direct quote, only what I vaguely remember from Developmental Psych, Juvenile Delinquency, and some other related classes. I get "playing doctor" is experimenting, but outright asking a sibling to tickle your pen!s to wake it up just raises red flags.

[lionfamily1999]

I cannot give you a direct quote, only what I vaguely remember from Developmental Psych, Juvenile Delinquency, and some other related classes. I get "playing doctor" is experimenting, but outright asking a sibling to tickle your pen!s to wake it up just raises red flags.

Why does it raise red flags?

 

This sounds really normal to me and I don't understand the "this must be the product of molestation" idea. I can understand being shocked and concerned... at first, but not continuing to feel that way (after a calm moment of reflection). Is there something I'm totally missing here? :confused:

[GWOB]

Why does it raise red flags?

 

This sounds really normal to me and I don't understand the "this must be the product of molestation" idea. I can understand being shocked and concerned... at first, but not continuing to feel that way (after a calm moment of reflection). Is there something I'm totally missing here? :confused:

 

It would send up a red flag in my mind. While I would probably take a moment or two to clam down, I would still have a serious discussion with my kid. I would re-hash the whole private area talk. I would ask where he got that phrase. I would even ask if anyone has asked him to do that to them. Call me crazy, loony, whatever, but I just couldn't live with myself if I missed something like that as a mother.

[Abigail4476]

I'm on board with those who think it's fairly normal behavior. It's a concern, simply because you do need to teach children healthy boundaries, AND you need to supervise their interactions with other children until you are sure they've been established.

 

For toddlers, curiosity is normal, fascination is normal, and play is normal. Words like "tickle" are definitely normal for a toddler.

 

My son went through a phase where he thought it was funny to say certain words all the time, including but not limited to: penis, poop, pee, and fart. He would say them on purpose to shock people and then laugh. No one in our house uses those words freely, including my husband. He just discovered that it got a reaction, and it took us at least several months to stop the behavior. :tongue_smilie:

 

Your sister should most definitely not overreact. It should be met with immediate separation of the children, and then a clear, calm, and kind talk about how our privates are called that because only certain people are allowed to see or touch them. (The child, parents and the doctor are usually the short list.) If the behavior is repeated, the response should be calmly repeated. I would also be very careful about extreme punishments, because they can cause more of an obsession instead of less. Human sexuality is intertwined with our whole being that an extreme to response to something natural can cause permanent psychological or emotional damage. My patented response to my son when he was younger was, "If you need to touch/scratch your bottom/penis, please go to the bathroom for that. We only touch privates in private." No judgment; just a recommendation.

 

I do agree that she should audit his associations and make certain nothing is influencing his behavior, but I think suspecting molestation at this point is overkill. She should also supervise her children more closely, until she's sure there won't be another episode. Children discover and explore sexuality along with every other part of themselves. You don't suppress it; you put boundaries on it.

[Abigail4476]

A pediatrician knows the difference between normal curiosity and molestation. If the Dr reports what happened it WOULD be based on more than what has been said here.

I would not personally take a child of mine to a Dr based on what was said here. I would discuss appropriate touch etc. and ask questions. But it sounds to me like since this Mom is upset that she is already over reacting. A 3 year old should not be treated like a molester. A pediatrician may be who she needs to hear that things are OK so she calms down. If there is more to the story than what has been told here there may need to be a visit to a Pediatrician to sort it all out.

 

:iagree:

 

It depends on the doctor, but I would definitely feel comfortable discussing this with our pediatrician (without my child in the room).

[lionfamily1999]

It would send up a red flag in my mind. While I would probably take a moment or two to clam down, I would still have a serious discussion with my kid. I would re-hash the whole private area talk. I would ask where he got that phrase. I would even ask if anyone has asked him to do that to them. Call me crazy, loony, whatever, but I just couldn't live with myself if I missed something like that as a mother.

I'm asking what flags I'm missing. What is it in particular that makes this so concerning and why?

 

I would discuss this with my toddler, because knowing that some parts are private is important and he's obviously ready for the talk. I would ask where he learned such a silly thing, because I don't want to make more of it than it is and if he learned this while playing in the tub or in his room then I don't want him to think it's wrong. I'm not sure about bringing up other people, only because I would not want to lead his answers and that, imo, would be leading.

 

I'm not trying to call you crazy, I really want to know what I've missed here. Initially, I'd see red flags like mad, but after a few moments of deep breathing it seems really normal.

[mjpeter]

I agree. I would never mention such a thing to a dr. unless I trusted him completely based on a long relationship built up over time. As a matter of fact, even if I knew for a fact that my child was being molested, I would only go to dr.s that I knew and trusted absolutely. It is my honest and sincere belief that sometimes the response is much more traumatic that the orginal incident.

 

 

:iagree: I was actually molested at age four. It happened with the adult son of one of my mom's friends. He asked me to go downstairs and look at some toys with him, and ended up asking me to touch him. I remember it being an odd, slightly scary experience, and I did tell my mom the next time we were going to this household...apparently I cried and said I didn't want to go there. I think that this was the extent of it. Of course, the friend didn't believe my mom, or I, and said that I was making it up. Needless to say, that was the end of that friendship.

 

Now, I don't know what the appropriate response should have been, but she put me into a therapy group with other girls a couple of years later, and some had been raped and physically abused. I guarantee that it was more horrifying hearing their stories at such a young age than the original incident was. Maybe I needed to talk to somebody about it, maybe not, but this was too strong of a reaction.

[DarcyB]

Coming from the child who was playing doctor on the playground of her grandfather's church/preschool, getting caught by her mother who was a teacher and having it be all my idea, I'd say it was probably nothing more than exploration and showing off.

 

Coming from someone involved in a child molestation issue....I'd say it might be time for a good talk about privacy, touching, and questioning, gently, if anyone has ever asked him that same question, etc. Educating while investigating can give the mom some piece of mind without involving a doctor, CPS or the police. THEN, if she finds more red flags, it's time to move. But until then, let it be a teachable moment, and keep an eye out.

[hsbaby]

Going to agree with the "sounds pretty normal" crowd. I've caught my son playing with it out in the open....when his sisters were near. After a talk about "private" parts and the appropriate place to do things, he didn't do it again. I don't think a 4 year old is thinking anything but "oh, this is fun". Unless I saw other concerning behaviors I would really hesitate to call my ped. Or any other mandatory reporter. That can get ugly quick. As for the word "tickling", my 3 yr. old cousin always refers to thing tickling his penis...I don't think the use if that word would throw red flags for me.

[Harriet Vane]

In a situation like this, you find that people are polarized into two opposite ends of the spectrum:

 

This is developmentally normal or harmless

 

vs

 

This is a red flag for abuse.

 

Both can be correct.

HOWEVER, long years of experience have shown me (as well as my dearest friend in the world, who was a DCFS caseworker for 30 years) that most people minimize true red flags for abuse. And, even in the face of true evidence, a large proportion of people will either deny or minimize and, bottom line, refuse in any way to involve any level of official (outside) response.

 

One other factor to consider: even mandated reporters have a tendency to minimize and deny, especially if they have not had to report abuse in the past. I am personally acquainted with a case wherein TWENTY-TWO mandated reporters (teachers, professional therapists, camp counselors) over a period of four years ALL refused to report significant abuse. (In this particular case, the family was eventually ushered into the system when one of the children ran away--the stepfather was eventually adjudicated for s@x abuse against two step-daughters.)

 

So, with that context, here's my opinion:

 

The vocabulary used by this child sounds too adult to me, especially the "wake up" part. Yes it's true that children experiment with their body parts, and they sometimes choose to experiment with each other. HOWEVER, what this child said sounds more like an adult fed those words to the child.

 

It is far more common for children to experiment on themselves--asking the other child to handle his body part is also a potential red flag.

 

Furthermore, there is a lot to be said for a person's mommy instinct, and for what I like to call "the moment of truth." There are some moments in our lives where we see something completely clearly and just KNOW. That moment might later be obscured by lots of talking, reasoning, etc. Given the other red flags in this situation, I tend to weight your friend's response more heavily as being potentially an accurate read into the situation with her son.

 

Your friend should not punish her son, and she should make every attempt to calm down. She should either interview her son with someone else he trusts present or arrange for an interview with a dr or professional therapist.

 

However, the younger the child, the more likely that professional is to minimize, deny, and also minimize that child's credibility based on their age. Your friend should not assume that the professional will get to the bottom of it, or even that they will choose to handle it appropriately (though they certainly might). The interview should be understood as one piece of the puzzle, AND the child's words should be taken at face value, NOT ENDLESSLY REINTERPRETED. Your friend should continue to monitor her child and his interactions, not in paranoia, but just keeping tabs.

 

You or your friend can pm me for further information or questions. I would also be happy to provide my email for private discussion.

[phathui5]

It sounds like normal three year old behavior to me. While I never dealt with it with my oldest, my younger two boys are really into playing with their penises. My three year old, who is working on potty training, will be sitting on the toilet talking about his penis this and his penis that.

[Laura Corin]

I would not assume abuse, but be aware that this might be a possibility. A little boy can discover that he can 'wake up' his willy by playing with it and might want to interest his sister in the game. Small children do play like this without outside prompting.

 

I think that it would be good to ask in a non-frightening way whether the little boy had this idea for himself, then explain that, whilst touching his private parts feels good, it is not something that he should ask others to join in with.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Gooblink]

So, with that context, here's my opinion:

 

The vocabulary used by this child sounds too adult to me, especially the "wake up" part. Yes it's true that children experiment with their body parts, and they sometimes choose to experiment with each other. HOWEVER, what this child said sounds more like an adult fed those words to the child.

 

It is far more common for children to experiment on themselves--asking the other child to handle his body part is also a potential red flag.

 

Furthermore, there is a lot to be said for a person's mommy instinct, and for what I like to call "the moment of truth." There are some moments in our lives where we see something completely clearly and just KNOW. That moment might later be obscured by lots of talking, reasoning, etc. Given the other red flags in this situation, I tend to weight your friend's response more heavily as being potentially an accurate read into the situation with her son.

 

 

 

The bolded, above, were the two things that struck me (unprofessional though my opinion is!).

 

I agree that innocent playing is completely normal. When my boys were younger and would bathe together they would giggle and play with their own parts, even "naming" them. And I agree "tickle" as a vocabulary word is not remarkable for that age. However, what the OP described just sounded...off...to me.

[Amy loves Bud]

I'm with those who think there's possibly an over reaction here.:grouphug:

 

It sounds like totally normal preschooler exploration to me and I would not mention it to a mandatory reporter without something more concrete.

 

Since they don't understand it's a "private" part, why would they even think it wouldn't be as acceptable to have someone touch say their finger? Especially if she hasn't already had a "private parts" talk with him.:confused:

 

Also, to me, "tickle" and "wake it up" are logical and accurate words for a child of that age to come up with.

 

I agree with all of this - normal behavior, words I would expect from this age, etc.

 

If there are other issues - behavior changes, etc. Then I would worry. This one incident? No biggie.

[bzymom]

There is no way to know for sure other than to calmly investigate, by talking to her son in a very low-key manner and giving thought to the people with whom he has spent time.

 

As the mom of 3 boys (youngest now 16) and one daughter, who is the youngest, this would be quite disturbing to me. Boys are very fascinated with themselves for certain, but to engage a younger sister and use language like that would certainly cause me to investigate, and to keep a very close eye on things going forward.

 

I will keep a prayer that this is much ado about nothing.

[Chris in VA]

Excellent post, Strider. ITA with you.

 

A df's daughter reached up and gently grabbed a male classroom visitor's genital area when she was 4. It was done in a totally playful way. Turned out her dad watched porn with her in the bedroom. All 5 of his kids have now, as adults, accused him of molestation and inappropriate behaviours. I never would have guessed the grab was a "red flag."

 

There's lots of anecdotal evidence either way, of course. The language, tho, does sound adult to me.

 

If she's going to ask her son about it (well, of course she is...), here's a link to some ways to avoid asking leading questions and to avoid putting words into his mouth, iykwim. It also talks about abuse at different ages.

 

How to Interview for possible molestation

[smrtmama]

A little child would not use the word tickle? What language? I am not saying he's not been molested...but this could natural curiosity! Tred very carefully before turning a child's world upside down.

 

Specifically, "tickle it to wake it up." That sounds like the exact kind of thing an adult would tell a small child to coerce inappropriate contact.

[Harriet Vane]

Excellent post, Strider. ITA with you.

 

A df's daughter reached up and gently grabbed a male classroom visitor's genital area when she was 4. It was done in a totally playful way. Turned out her dad watched porn with her in the bedroom. All 5 of his kids have now, as adults, accused him of molestation and inappropriate behaviours. I never would have guessed the grab was a "red flag."

 

There's lots of anecdotal evidence either way, of course. The language, tho, does sound adult to me.

 

If she's going to ask her son about it (well, of course she is...), here's a link to some ways to avoid asking leading questions and to avoid putting words into his mouth, iykwim. It also talks about abuse at different ages.

 

How to Interview for possible molestation

 

I read your post with a sense of deja vu. Many years ago I helped a woman through a similar situation. Her daughter had some troubling problems in her bottom area that this woman was concerned about. Her concern escalated to alarm when on two separate occasions she saw her daughter approach her husband (daughter's father) and rub his genital area through his pants--and her husband did nothing to stop it, but smiled, until he noticed his wife watching open-mouthed.

 

I cannot begin to tell you the number of people, including a two professional therapists and a DCFS supervisor, who were dismissive of what the mother witnessed. So many people just do not understand what a red flag is, often because they have no experience or context.

 

Turns out the father WAS abusive, on many occasions. There were pictures to prove it. (shudder)

 

The sad, hard thing is that, over time, even the mother questioned the veracity of what had been proved to be true. The number of crazy rationalizations applied to the accumulated evidence defied logic or common sense. Unfortunately this is by far the most common response to abuse situations.

[PinkInTheBlue]

My 4yr old won't leave his alone! It's a constant battle to tell him to "take your hand off it" everywhere we are. I'm trying to balance not making him think he can't be curious/fascinated with his own body with not being inappropriate in public. Ugh! I have lately explained to him he can go to his room. :) However, I will say that he uses the word "tickle" when he also seems bothered by it because, as he says, "but it's being big". Apparently it bothers him when it seems to randomly "get big" and that "tickles". UGH! Boys! As Elaine on Seinfeld said "I don't know how you live with THOSE THINGS!" LOL!!

 

Hiding now...what a conversation!

 

Being a Mom of 3 boys who have ALL been fascinated with it, I would have a honest, open conversation with him about where might he have gotten the word "tickle" or if anyone has ever talked about that with him. I'd expect it to be done out of innocence as others have said but I would have a good conversation to be sure the idea was only his and explain the privacy of it and NEVER to do that again. :)

 

Just my opinion.

[Daisy]

Specifically, "tickle it to wake it up." That sounds like the exact kind of thing an adult would tell a small child to coerce inappropriate contact.

 

I tend to agree.

[Mama2Many4]

What I find from most of the posters who think there is nothing wrong with it is that, their kids touch and are obsessed with their OWN penis's, not having another child touch their penis for them. This boy wanted his sister to touch his, clearly he knows he can have good feelings while touching it himself, it's the fact that he wants to be touched by another that raises the red flags for me. My children have seen each other naked (of course) but they don't dwell on each others bodies. We discussed with them what is appropriate and what is not and they know. My boys would never purposefully expose themselves to their sister. They even wear towels when running from the bathroom to their room after a shower.

 

In conclusion I stand behind my gut instinct which tells me this poor boy was molested, and since he was, sees nothing wrong in recruiting another to do what he was taught by a molester.

[Dobela]

OP, if your sister is planning on taking her son to a professional, she needs to NOT ASK HIM ANYTHING or talk about the incident again until they see the professional. Actually, no one needs to be discussing this in front of him or with him until she sees professionals. If there has been a case of abuse, you don't want him to be ashamed or worried about what he is telling because of how his mother is reacting. You also don't want him to change his story accordingly. Ask her to take a deep breath, and not do anything yet. And I know,that is the hardest thing. But critical. You want him to be comfortable with the people and not quoting her. You don't her to ask and give him names (Did xx do this? and so on.). She needs to act as normal as possible and make like the incident either didn't happen, or downplay it. For now anyway. After she sees professionals she can then address what happened.

[Denisemomof4]

I have done some research in this area and I would be VERY concerned about that. I think touching yourself or you show me yours and I'll show you mine are normal behaviors. What your nephew said is not normal.

 

What is MOST important here is for your sister to talk to him VERY calmly. She can't make him feel bad, because most kids who have had sexual abuse on any level usually blame themselves. She needs to get to the bottom of it and make sure nobody has touched him inappropriately (ANYWHERE the underwear touches) or as asked him to touch them inappropriately.

[Denisemomof4]

A little child would not use the word tickle? What language? I am not saying he's not been molested...but this could natural curiosity! Tred very carefully before turning a child's world upside down.

 

this ABSOLUTELY needs to be handled very delicately!

 

I think the "tickle it until it comes alive" is what was concerning, and is it normal for a brother to expose himself to his sister? I don't know........ my boys were older than their sisters and VERY private.

[Denisemomof4]

My 4yr old won't leave his alone! It's a constant battle to tell him to "take your hand off it" everywhere we are. I'm trying to balance not making him think he can't be curious/fascinated with his own body with not being inappropriate in public. Ugh! I have lately explained to him he can go to his room. :) However, I will say that he uses the word "tickle" when he also seems bothered by it because, as he says, "but it's being big". Apparently it bothers him when it seems to randomly "get big" and that "tickles". UGH! Boys! As Elaine on Seinfeld said "I don't know how you live with THOSE THINGS!" LOL!!

 

Hiding now...what a conversation!

 

Being a Mom of 3 boys who have ALL been fascinated with it, I would have a honest, open conversation with him about where might he have gotten the word "tickle" or if anyone has ever talked about that with him. I'd expect it to be done out of innocence as others have said but I would have a good conversation to be sure the idea was only his and explain the privacy of it and NEVER to do that again. :)

 

Just my opinion.

 

WOW!!! I never heard my boys talk like that! Unless they did and I forgot, which is most definitely a possibility!

 

Jessica, I think it's GREAT you shared this! From one mom to another, these things are good to know!

[Mejane]

We discussed with them what is appropriate and what is not and they know. My boys would never purposefully expose themselves to their sister. They even wear towels when running from the bathroom to their room after a shower.

 

 

 

You have done this, but the OP's sister may not have. A four-year-old who hasn't been taught that privates are private would think nothing of touching. The way she reacted makes me think she may not be comfortable talking about such things and may not have broached the subject with him yet.

 

If I'm wrong, I apologize.

[snipsnsnailsx5]

So here's a question - what if a child show's these red flags, but molestation is very unlikely?

My 8 yr old has shown some red flags (as I previously discussed earlier in this thread) - starting around 4 yrs of age up until even now. Its not consistent or a regular occurrence with him, but there have been a couple times that I really became concerned with him.

SO much so that both Dh and I, together and separately, have had serious talks with him on private parts and what is okay and what is not okay...who cannot touch them, and what to do if an adult does/says anything that is inappropriate, makes him uncomfortable, etc. We have even come out and asked him matter of factually if anyone has ever done anything that made him feel bad or uncomfortable. He looked at us like we were crazy and said no way.

There is no one in his life that he's around enough other then DH and me. As I said earlier, we don't get babysitters. We don't even have a lot of family around that we visit with regularly.

 

Anyway, all this talk about serious concern about this 4 yr old makes me seriously concerned about my own child. If that is such a major red flag...does it indicate most likely molestation?! That's a very scary thing for a parent.

Couldn't it mean anything else? Such as...could the child have accidentally saw something on TV? Or could he have heard an older child/sibling/etc say something to someone else and he copied it? Are there any disorders, personality types, etc etc that could sometimes result in overly sexual behaviors, or abnormal fascination with sexual matters?

[Mejane]

Couldn't it mean anything else? Such as...could the child have accidentally saw something on TV? Or could he have heard an older child/sibling/etc say something to someone else and he copied it? Are there any disorders, personality types, etc etc that could sometimes result in overly sexual behaviors, or abnormal fascination with sexual matters?

 

All of these are possibilities, as are molestation and simple curiosity.

[KrissiK]

My gut reaction upon seeing the phrase he used was molestation. I would agree with the other posters, small boys are generally interested in doing it themselves. My youngest son would regularly fall asleep with his hand down his pants until he was about 6. And my oldest did a little "show me yours, I'll show you mine" with his little sister until I put a stop to that. But what this child was doing seems out of the realm of normal exploration.

[Nestof3]

I disagree. That sounds exactly like something Ben would say. He always comes up with the funniest way to describe something. In fact, I am quite certain he has used the wording before.

 

Specifically, "tickle it to wake it up." That sounds like the exact kind of thing an adult would tell a small child to coerce inappropriate contact.

[Denisemomof4]

In a situation like this, you find that people are polarized into two opposite ends of the spectrum:

 

This is developmentally normal or harmless

 

vs

 

This is a red flag for abuse.

 

Both can be correct.

HOWEVER, long years of experience have shown me (as well as my dearest friend in the world, who was a DCFS caseworker for 30 years) that most people minimize true red flags for abuse. And, even in the face of true evidence, a large proportion of people will either deny or minimize and, bottom line, refuse in any way to involve any level of official (outside) response.

 

One other factor to consider: even mandated reporters have a tendency to minimize and deny, especially if they have not had to report abuse in the past. I am personally acquainted with a case wherein TWENTY-TWO mandated reporters (teachers, professional therapists, camp counselors) over a period of four years ALL refused to report significant abuse. (In this particular case, the family was eventually ushered into the system when one of the children ran away--the stepfather was eventually adjudicated for s@x abuse against two step-daughters.)

 

So, with that context, here's my opinion:

 

The vocabulary used by this child sounds too adult to me, especially the "wake up" part. Yes it's true that children experiment with their body parts, and they sometimes choose to experiment with each other. HOWEVER, what this child said sounds more like an adult fed those words to the child.

 

It is far more common for children to experiment on themselves--asking the other child to handle his body part is also a potential red flag.

 

Furthermore, there is a lot to be said for a person's mommy instinct, and for what I like to call "the moment of truth." There are some moments in our lives where we see something completely clearly and just KNOW. That moment might later be obscured by lots of talking, reasoning, etc. Given the other red flags in this situation, I tend to weight your friend's response more heavily as being potentially an accurate read into the situation with her son.

 

Your friend should not punish her son, and she should make every attempt to calm down. She should either interview her son with someone else he trusts present or arrange for an interview with a dr or professional therapist.

 

However, the younger the child, the more likely that professional is to minimize, deny, and also minimize that child's credibility based on their age. Your friend should not assume that the professional will get to the bottom of it, or even that they will choose to handle it appropriately (though they certainly might). The interview should be understood as one piece of the puzzle, AND the child's words should be taken at face value, NOT ENDLESSLY REINTERPRETED. Your friend should continue to monitor her child and his interactions, not in paranoia, but just keeping tabs.

 

You or your friend can pm me for further information or questions. I would also be happy to provide my email for private discussion.

 

Strider, you are always so wise!!!!!!! This is excellent!!!

[Nestof3]

For privacy reasons, I don't want to say some of the specific CRAZY sounding things Nathan has said regarding his p*nis. I also don't want to go into detail about curiosities for my boys' sakes, but I just talk to my boys about other people touching them -- them touching others. I can vouch that I KNOW they have never been molested. But, some of the things they've said are out there. Kids have imaginations, and as much as we would like to think that a p*nis only becomes a big deal around puberty or as much as we would like to NOT think of our boys thinking a lot about it, it happens -- all on its own.

 

So here's a question - what if a child show's these red flags, but molestation is very unlikely?

My 8 yr old has shown some red flags (as I previously discussed earlier in this thread) - starting around 4 yrs of age up until even now. Its not consistent or a regular occurrence with him, but there have been a couple times that I really became concerned with him.

SO much so that both Dh and I, together and separately, have had serious talks with him on private parts and what is okay and what is not okay...who cannot touch them, and what to do if an adult does/says anything that is inappropriate, makes him uncomfortable, etc. We have even come out and asked him matter of factually if anyone has ever done anything that made him feel bad or uncomfortable. He looked at us like we were crazy and said no way.

There is no one in his life that he's around enough other then DH and me. As I said earlier, we don't get babysitters. We don't even have a lot of family around that we visit with regularly.

 

Anyway, all this talk about serious concern about this 4 yr old makes me seriously concerned about my own child. If that is such a major red flag...does it indicate most likely molestation?! That's a very scary thing for a parent.

Couldn't it mean anything else? Such as...could the child have accidentally saw something on TV? Or could he have heard an older child/sibling/etc say something to someone else and he copied it? Are there any disorders, personality types, etc etc that could sometimes result in overly sexual behaviors, or abnormal fascination with sexual matters?

[snipsnsnailsx5]

Thank you for this post! Very well said. :)

 

For privacy reasons, I don't want to say some of the specific CRAZY sounding things Nathan has said regarding his p*nis. I also don't want to go into detail about curiosities for my boys' sakes, but I just talk to my boys about other people touching them -- them touching others. I can vouch that I KNOW they have never been molested. But, some of the things they've said are out there. Kids have imaginations, and as much as we would like to think that a p*nis only becomes a big deal around puberty or as much as we would like to NOT think of our boys thinking a lot about it, it happens -- all on its own.

[Abigail4476]

What I find from most of the posters who think there is nothing wrong with it is that, their kids touch and are obsessed with their OWN penis's, not having another child touch their penis for them. This boy wanted his sister to touch his, clearly he knows he can have good feelings while touching it himself, it's the fact that he wants to be touched by another that raises the red flags for me. My children have seen each other naked (of course) but they don't dwell on each others bodies. We discussed with them what is appropriate and what is not and they know. My boys would never purposefully expose themselves to their sister. They even wear towels when running from the bathroom to their room after a shower.

 

In conclusion I stand behind my gut instinct which tells me this poor boy was molested, and since he was, sees nothing wrong in recruiting another to do what he was taught by a molester.

 

My son is modest now, at age 8, because we've trained him to be modest. At age 3/4, he was quite the little streaker. In fact, he would run in his sisters' bedroom right after a bath if I didn't catch him quickly enough, and giggle when they would scream and then run back out. He's the baby of the family, so clowning around for a reaction is his M.O. :glare:

 

Modesty and boundaries are learned, IMO. I don't think they're innate at a young age.

 

Specifically, "tickle it to wake it up." That sounds like the exact kind of thing an adult would tell a small child to coerce inappropriate contact.

 

I think I have to agree about the wording of the original statement. I thought about it this afternoon, and it is the phrase "wake it up" that's bothersome. Obviously that could be a euphemism for an erection, and I don't know that little 3 year old boys have enough experience to apply such double speak.

 

Ultimately, I think the mother should control her reactions carefully, BUT if her instincts are telling her something is off, she needs to seek help in dealing with it. I do have a personal rule about trusting my own instincts, and I would want other mothers to do the same. There's been some great advice on this thread about how to do that without traumatizing the child. I hope the OP updates the thread.

[lionfamily1999]

Strider, thank you for explaining the "red flags."

[tex-mex]

Sounds normal to me and I have 3 boys! But I would be racking my brain on anybody he has been alone with and any gut feelings I may have ignored.

 

I would be very careful about blowing this up. I was molested at that age, and had no working memory of it till around 16. I asked my mom about it, and she calmly confirmed what happened and al the steps she had taken to make sure it never happened again.

 

I am fine :D, I had no concept of right or wrong and therefore felt nothing about it.

:iagree: Let's not add any more fuel to the "fire" -- we don't know this family and I'd hate for anything to amp up and cause lasting harm if this was innocent. The OP needs to be there for her sis -- but there needs to be some caution with this info. HTH

 

ETA: The child in question should not be interrogated by parents. It will cause confusion. And possible story to be concocted? Get a pediatrician to address it and as a mandatory reporter, he makes the call.

Edited October 26, 2010 by tex-mex

[Denisemomof4]

There's no reason for someone to get upset at the thought that someone is jumping to conclusions, and there's no reason for someone to think that others are "jumping" are way out there. Really, what makes us as people is what we have experienced. The saying "tickle it until it wakes up" makes ME think, WOW, that's not right. BUT, my boys haven't said that. We do say things and joke in ways that others may be uncomfortable with. So be it.

 

I think it's odd, and I've raised two boys who have never said anything like that. I've raised two boys who I'm sure have done the comparison thing. They have NOT done this with their sister, and I would have had issues if they had. She, likewise, being younger, is modest around her brothers. IN OUR FAMILY, opposite sexes are modest around others. If others aren't, it may make US uncomfortable, but that' doesn't mean it's wrong. I wear bathing suits around my sons, but they don't want to see me in my underwear. I have friends who walk around in their underwear around their kids and it's fine and acceptable and I think that's great. It works for them.

 

When my son was in preschool, we got a call that he told someone that his teacher had "checked his butt." I *immediately* freaked out. I called dh and he came home from work. The more we talked about the situation, the more he added details to it. I can see how easy it is for that to happen, and for some innocent person to be convicted of a crime they never committed. In the end, by my non chalant talk I was able to determine that nothing ever happened to him. This was confirmed many times through the years.

 

I ALSO had the experience of having a pedophile, a supposed GREAT friend, in the house. All the while he was buttering us up to get to one of my kids. He took advantage of dh's and my generous hearts. We took him in - a man who was separated from his family due to the economy. The wife came to visit, etc. He had numerous dinners per week, he spent holidays with us. He was more of an uncle to my kids than my own brother. BUT, my mommy instincts set in and I never, EVER budged and allowed this person to be with any child of mine alone. Over the course of several years. In fact, when we had parties here and he went out to check on the kids, I was there. I was a MAJOR P.I.T.A. and I felt guilty as h*ll for doing it. BUT, because I did, I have a teen whom was never harmed. Another family is not so lucky. He was SO NICE, but I just had some sort of uncomfortable feeling.

 

To me, with my experience WITH MY BOYS, "tickle until it wakes up" and with a sibling of THE OPPOSITE SEX is very alarming. But that has been MY experience. I hope and pray this was innocent, but I'm not comfortable with it.

 

Hearing of some of the stories here has made me feel more comfortable, and I'm CERTAIN that my boys did a LOT more behind closed doors. I assume this because I had a sister close in age. But I never, EVER did this with my brother.

 

My boys recently told me the story of the two of them stripping down and streaking through the house at bedtime when they were with my parents. I immediately :lol::lol::lol:but my parent's reaction was for my mom to :lol::lol::lol:(probably thinking "They are SOOOOOOOOOOOO Denise's kids!!!) and my dad? "STOP THAT!!! GO TO BED!!!"

:lol:

Edited October 26, 2010 by Denisemomof4

[Annabel Lee]

.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Annabel Lee

[kalanamak]

I agree. People are losing sight of what can be perfectly normal childhood behavior.

 

So much normal kid behavior is now a disorder. A little kid touches his penis and talks about the amazing changes it can undergo (and it is a pretty freaking amazing discovery) and it's molestation.

 

Even if the child is being molested, freaking out in front of them is potentially scarring.

 

:iagree:

 

If this is the ONLY "red flag", I'd count it as a "first red flag" and be low key. If you freak out and dwell on it, etc, you could be distorting the child's "real" behavior. I'd wait and see after a simple reminder to keep privates private.

 

(I used to tell my son was going to "tickle him awake", and he'd play asleep and I'd tickle him. This, of course was ALL of him. If my son was really asleep, a tickle didn't wake him.)

[GWOB]

Strider, thank you for explaining the "red flags."

 

Yep. She explained it much better than I ever could.

[CAMom]

I'm still surprised. This little guy is not yet four! IMO, to him, saying something to a little girl is no different than saying something to a little boy. And, his penis is really no different than any other body part at that age. It's no more sexual than any other body part.

 

I also think it's really important to know if the mom of this little guy has ever had any of the "private parts" discussion. If not, why little guy would think twice about having his little sister touch any part of him? How would he know that certain parts are off limits?

 

As for the terms "tickle" and "wake it up," it surprises me that some would think those would be adult terms. Tickle seems very accurate for that age group and "wake it up?" I mean really. What happens to it when you touch it. It goes from "laying down" to "standing up" or "waking up," doesn't it?

 

From this discussion, I can see how others would think my own newly 5 year old would show "red flags" of molestation. He would openly tell you that mommy pinches his butt. I guess that would make some run to the pediatrician. But, it's a simple thing that we've done since he could walk! Daddy gets him out of the bath, he streaks around the house and Daddy says, "Let mommy give it a pinch!" It started when he had that cute little baby bottom that can't be resisted! So, he runs and finds me and I give his bottom a quick little pinch and tell him to go put on his jammies. It's just been bedtime routine since he could walk. I'm sure that routine is very short lived now that he's a new 5. But I'll always remember it fondly.:)

 

I just know that if everything else were normal and there was nothing amiss, I would see this as very normal childhood play and have that talk about privates being private.

[Lolly]

this ABSOLUTELY needs to be handled very delicately!

 

I think the "tickle it until it comes alive" is what was concerning, and is it normal for a brother to expose himself to his sister? I don't know........ my boys were older than their sisters and VERY private.

 

I can easily see a 3 year old using those exact terms. In fact, they sound kinda familiar. And, YES, brothers will expose themselves to sisters. Most definitely so. he's 3!!!

[lionfamily1999]

I can easily see a 3 year old using those exact terms. In fact, they sound kinda familiar. And, YES, brothers will expose themselves to sisters. Most definitely so. he's 3!!!

I think this is the disconnect between Strider and the red flaggers (:lol:) and the it's perfectly normals... This sounds like 3yo language to me too (I am pretty sure that older ds used to call it waking up when he would get an erection in the tub).

 

That's what's interesting, though, that it can be such a clear red flag for some and so very normal for others.

[Wheres Toto]

My son went through a stage of being totally fascinated with his peni$. He would talk about it "waking up", "getting big", "tickles", how he could make it wiggle, look at it in the mirror, talk to it like it's his best friend, etc..... He's either gotten over it or has finally taken me seriously when I told him playing with his peni$ should be done in private.

 

His younger sister I'm sure got an eyeful for a while. They also bathed together and she would stand and watch him pee. It certainly didn't help when we started potty training and she wanted to stand up like he does.

 

I wouldn't worry about this unless there were other signs.

 

We also have an after bath/getting dressed ritual but it's "smack the hiney" not pinch it. :D

[UnsinkableKristen]

I think those words can be both perfectly normal and a red flag. The difference in how you see it probably comes with knowing children that same age who HAVE been molested and whose words WERE red flags.

 

I just don't think you can sweep generalizations over an instance like this with "Well my kids did it so it's normal" or "I knew someone who was abused and it's definitely that".

[Laurie4b]

My sister just called me VERY upset (understandably, as you will see) because she found her almost four year old son encouraging his newly turned 2 year old sister to "tickle" his pen*s. He was telling her "you have to tickle it to wake it up". My sister burst into the room and grabbed my niece away from my nephew and then asked him "did you tell her to touch your pen*s?" at first he said no, but then he admitted yes he did. So she put him on his bed and left the room very upset, at which point she called me.

 

I have four kids of my own, youngest is 10, but I have never dealt with this situation. Her fear is that someone is molesting him (it would have to be a family member, because he is not around anyone else). She said that kids who are abused act out sexually towards other children. She wouldn't be concerned if he was touching himself but the fact that he was telling his sister to do so and using terms like "tickle it" that makes her afraid someone has taught him that by doing it to him. She is going to talk to him of course when she has calmed down enough to face him calmly. But she asked me to ask you all here for advice or if this has ever happened to you or just your opinion whether you think it's normal child curiousity or something more sinister. Thanks so much for listening. My nephew is very precious to me (unfortunately I live in a different state) and I'm also upset by this.

 

I'm answering as a mom who has raised 4 sons and who has done child sexual abuse investigations in my former professional life. My impression from the little you've written is that it is something her ds discovered himself. "Tickling it" is very normal childhood language. His affect is very important. If he was being silly, calm, perky, playful, etc. as this was going on, I would take that as further evidence that this is his own little idea. If his affect was darker--he was angry, he had made a threat or was otherwise being coercive, etc. that would change my opinion) That is not a definitive answer, but it is a likely one. Some kids are more sexually adventurous than others.

 

Her reaction, on the other hand, has complicated things. Whether he is now shamed about his normal sexual curiosity or whether there has been contact with others from whom he learned, he is now dealing with shame. Even if kids of a very young age are the recipients of mild sexual touching (ie nothing that has caused pain, not being overpowered, etc.) they don't have the same negative effects because they are not aware of the sexual and shaming connotations. Some 4 year olds are still getting their diapers changed and cleaning up a diaper mess can be stimulating--but is not sexual. If you don't know something is supposed to be sexual, that part of it doesn't enter the kids' mind.) One has to approach it from the child's point of view, not the adult's.

 

So what to do? It's really hard to undo that shaming interaction and that interaction has pretty much removed her ability to "investigate" further on her own. I might have the father talk with him about it. By age 4, my kids knew the private part rules: that they shouldn't show their private parts, touch someone else's private parts, etc. We treated in-house infractions of these rules very low-key and matter of factly, because their sexuality is a beautiful thing and one doesn't want it associated with shame. I would calmly explain to the brother than he broke the private part rules. One wants to set up an expectation that anyone can come to a parent in the house and report that the private part rules were broken without fear. If a parent overreacts, they will not do it. If I were advising your sister, I would advise her to apologize and say that she overreacted, that he was young and didn't know the private part rules yet (or if he knows them, that he is young and may have forgotten them) I would then stress the special quality of them--that they were made to feel good, but that is something that you either keep to yourself (if she is okay with that) and/or wait until you are an adult. ( I would recommend doing this whether this is totally his idea or whether he has been taught this by someone else.) Have her dh with her and have him be calm and cool. That will reassure the child. It's not atypical for parents to react like this, but it's good to undo it as soon as possible to the extent possible.

 

I highly doubt that anyone else has been molesting him based on this incident (in other words, in the absence of more typical red flags such as a change in behavior, specific sexual language (which tickling and waking up are not), but if she suspects it or wants to put her mind at ease, she should stop talking with him about it, and take him to a professional experienced in evaluating young kids for sexual abuse for an evaluation. An experienced professional doing an eval will not even arouse a kids' suspicions. It will all seem rather normal and unthreatening to the kid. They will do play with anatomically correct dolls, for instance. Though kids not exposed to sexual abuse will explore the dolls (sometimes with their mouths even), there is a different quality to their play with them when the child has not been abused vs. when he has--plus more info will come out when the child has been.

 

Kids can be led into false confessions if highly anxious parents are grilling them and then those things actually become part of the kid's memory at that age; in other words, it can become almost as if they *have* been abused even when they haven't if there is a situation of private parts associated with shame and parental upset. If there is a series of grilling questions, the child can come to believe that something happened that didn't. I can't emphasize enough that she should not grill him--she may do damage. At this point, given her reaction last night, I would say she should ask him as little as possible. I would be afraid that he'd throw her some other name to redirect her upset given last night.

 

For all you mamas reading this who aren't involved in this story, if you haven't already taught your kids names for their private parts and private part rules, do it today! And formulate a plan for how you'll react when these things come up because they likely will. If you react calmly, then you can ask a couple of open-ended questions and get the info you need.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Laurie4b

[Laurie4b]

:iagree: Children who have never been violated usually experiment with themselves, rarely others. I would be very concerned and address the situation with professionals immediately.

 

Simply not true.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

I think those words can be both perfectly normal and a red flag. The difference in how you see it probably comes with knowing children that same age who HAVE been molested and whose words WERE red flags.

 

I just don't think you can sweep generalizations over an instance like this with "Well my kids did it so it's normal" or "I knew someone who was abused and it's definitely that".

 

:iagree: my children have done it in a normal sense, my father did it in an abusive sense.

 

 

 

Also, I understand the importance of not freaking out but for some of us .. well .. I will just say I wouldn't criticize and risk adding to their anxiety with thoughts of having scarred their child for life. It's natural and understandable for some and I believe open communication could get both the child and the already scarred parent (or merely anxious one) through to a healthy resolution of the incident.