Question about what would be the correct term...

[CAMom]

I've been wanting to ask this question for a while. This is borne out of pure curiosity and the desire to be sensitive to others. It came back to my mind while reading Laura's thread about the word "gay" being used and then a few people referring to other words being used about others including African Americans.

 

My understanding is that in the US, the preferred term is African American. But, what would the most sensitive term be when referring to black people outside the US? :confused: I actually asked my husband a couple of weeks ago and neither of knew what was proper.

 

Or, how would I even know if someone I was referring to in a description was African American at all? What if they were from England or somewhere else?

 

Any help?

[cin]

:bigear:

 

I've also wondered about African Americans that are from Jamaica or Haiti, for example. I guess they originated from AFrica too, but my instinct is to call them Jamaican or Haitian. Or the Marshall Islands, would they be Aboriginis or African Americans.

 

Things that make you go Hmmmmm

[happi duck]

um, I've also wondered: if you are "white" but born in Africa and now live in the US are you "African American"? Seems like a yes to me, but confusing KWIM?

[Hannah C.]

From what I understand, in England black people who are citizens of the UK are referred to as Black.

 

A person who is from Africa and has become an American citizen would be African-American in the truest sense of the word, I think, though in practice the usage is confusing.

 

But what about someone who is South African and became an American citizen, yet is white? They would technically be African American too. Not all Africans are necessarily black!

[TravelingChris]

I don't use the term African American. I just use black.

[Tutor]

The mother of a family I babysat for was a white, South African. She preferred to be called "South African" but everyone thought she was Australian by her accent (which I didn't get at all, but that's neither here nor there). She just figured that she would correct who she could or who was necessary to correct (coworkers, friends, etc) and just not be bothered by mis-assumptions by casual acquaintances.

 

A close college friend of ours married a woman from Trinidad. She does not like to be referred to as an African-American; in her view, she was Trinidadian but now has her citizenship here and is American. She prefers the term Black if a generic labeling is necessary.

 

I don't really have a hard and fast rule. I use whatever term seems appropriate at the time, asking preference if I am in a situation where I am able or forgiveness for offense.

[CAMom]

Thanks for the input. I really want to be respectful of others and am just not sure what terms to use.

 

Like say I'm describing a runway show and am talking about a beautiful model (say Naomi Campbell) but don't her name. I couldn't really say "the African American one" since she's not American.:confused:

 

I don't know...:)

[Ottakee]

um, I've also wondered: if you are "white" but born in Africa and now live in the US are you "African American"? Seems like a yes to me, but confusing KWIM?

 

Just a funny story for this. We were foster parents and asked to take an African American/Native American baby--7 months old. I was thinking beautiful dark skin, black hair, etc.

 

I went to meet them to pick her up 45 minutes later and I was handed a PALE blue eyed, blond hair, very white looking baby. Come to find out bio mom was from Africa but was white. Bio dad was part Indian but baby was very light.

 

She is now our 14dd and tans quickly and her hair has gotten darker but still not quite what I had in my head when they called me.

[HollyB]

I know a man who is a black African, and he dislikes the term "African American." He thinks that is somehow disrespectful to people who are actually from an African country. It attaches citizenship or national heritage to skin color, which becomes...confusing.

[silliness7]

Thanks for the input. I really want to be respectful of others and am just not sure what terms to use.

 

Like say I'm describing a runway show and am talking about a beautiful model (say Naomi Campbell) but don't her name. I couldn't really say "the African American one" since she's not American.:confused:

 

I don't know...:)

 

Can you just pick another distinguishing characteristic besides skin tone? How about the one in the gorgeous red dress? or the shimmering pearls?

[Laurie4b]

I think for people outside the US, it's fine to identify them by their country: Jamaican, Kenyan, Nigerian, etc.

[Guest janainaz]

My best friend IRL is black and she refers to herself as black, not African American. I always use the term African American because it seems to be the term that would be least likely to offend.

[CAMom]

Can you just pick another distinguishing characteristic besides skin tone? How about the one in the gorgeous red dress? or the shimmering pearls?

 

Yes, of course I could. I was just using an example off the top of my head.:)

 

But, the point is it would not be accurate to call her African American. So, what would we refer to her (or anyone else) as?

[CAMom]

I think for people outside the US, it's fine to identify them by their country: Jamaican, Kenyan, Nigerian, etc.

 

I suppose. But, then why don't we just call African Americans Americans? It seems like that would be consistent. Additionally, what if we didn't know what country someone came from?

[Brenda in FL]

Thanks for the input. I really want to be respectful of others and am just not sure what terms to use.

 

Like say I'm describing a runway show and am talking about a beautiful model (say Naomi Campbell) but don't her name. I couldn't really say "the African American one" since she's not American.:confused:

 

I don't know...:)

 

I don't know if it's just my kids, but from early on they used and still use skin color in the way we might say, "the child with the blond hair," or "the very tall boy." They'll say "the children across the street with the dark skin" or "the brown skin." I thought it interesting that in their experience when they did not know of labels like African-American or Black, it was just natural to describe them the way they look just like they would any other person.

[Mimm]

Can you just pick another distinguishing characteristic besides skin tone? How about the one in the gorgeous red dress? or the shimmering pearls?

 

Why? It's like race is some kind of unmentionable. She shouldn't be embarrassed about her skin tone and we shouldn't act like it's something embarrassing by not mentioning it. I just think it's healthier to be open and not afraid of talking about these things.

 

I use the term black. I have a sister adopted from Haiti and we've don't really refer to her as Haitian-American. She's American, she's our sister, with a dry sense of humor and an an addiction to celebrity magazines. :)

[yslek]

I don't know if it's just my kids, but from early on they used and still use skin color in the way we might say, "the child with the blond hair," or "the very tall boy." They'll say "the children across the street with the dark skin" or "the brown skin." I thought it interesting that in their experience when they did not know of labels like African-American or Black, it was just natural to describe them the way they look just like they would any other person.

 

That's what my dc do, too. :) For a long time, the only 'black' people they referred to were people who were wearing black.

[Laurie4b]

I suppose. But, then why don't we just call African Americans Americans? It seems like that would be consistent. Additionally, what if we didn't know what country someone came from?

 

I don't really worry about whether I'm consistent. I just try to use whatever term a group uses for themselves because I think that's respectful. I think if you don't know the country, it's fine to say black. That is not considered derogatory that i know of. And folks from Africa whom I know do not like to be identified as African, but by their country if they are in the US. In their own country, they id each other by their tribe.

[juelle]

Truly, the African-American thing is a very American construct. In England, black people are black, people from SE Asia are generally referred to as Pakistani (which must be very annoying if you're Bangladeshi), and descendants of colonial settlers were called white Africans.

 

These terms don't carry all the loaded emotions of American history, even though British colonial history is not uniformly noble and glorious.

 

I have a son with a rare auto-immune condition which makes his skin spotted. As each kid gets old enough to ask about skin colours, we just say, 'Some people are black, some people are white, some people are spotted!' :D

 

The differences are obvious, but literally superficial. I don't think many people would be offended by simple description, though I could be very wrong.

[OrganicAnn]

We also commonly use the terms like Irish Americans and Italian Americans, so it is not just African Americans.

[Alyce]

According to the paper the term African American is going out of favor with the own people that came up with the term. They are preferring to be called Black now. What's crazy is that some still prefer the name African American so you never really do know what to call them. The African American name was started in the 70's as young people wanted to be recognized for their history and the terms "Black" etc were still very much associated with slavery. Apparently, according to this article people are changing their minds because they do consider themselves American and since so many people are coming from other countries it seems to demean them so they are beginning to prefer to be known as "black". For me that's not a problem because being from the south that's how we usually refer to someone who is dark skinned. The only problem we run into, is that I live near an area that has lots of descendants from the American Indian and some of them are dark skinned and you can't always tell the difference. The Indians around here get very upset when you do that. Makes for a very confusing time.

[Matryoshka]

A person who is from Africa and has become an American citizen would be African-American in the truest sense of the word, I think, though in practice the usage is confusing.

 

If someone's a recent immigrant, you wouldn't have to use African-American, you could use country of origin - I have some friends who are Ethiopian-American. Barack Obama is part Kenyan-American.

 

I am part German-American, English-American and Irish-American. I guess I'm muttified enough to be called European-American, but most those of European origin (white) don't bother using the whole continent as an identifier, because they know where they came from. The group referred to throughout time as colored, Negro, Afro-American, black, African-American, dependign on what was deemed "correct" for that time, for the most part do not have that information because of the history of how they were brought to this continent.

 

But what about someone who is South African and became an American citizen, yet is white? They would technically be African American too. Not all Africans are necessarily black!

 

With the increased movement of people around the world, that does get confusing. I have a friend who is from South Africa - but his parents were British. When living in South Africa, he was British-South African, then he lived in (and was a citizen of) Canada, now the US. Oy. British-South African-Canadian-American?

 

But I still like that far better than referring to people by the color of their skin, like that is any more meaningful or useful than attempting to use cultural indentifiers.

[Tylianna]

If I were in a country that had mostly dark skinned people (Asian, African etc) I would be considered "the white girl". I would't take offense to it. I think it is more of us "white" people that over think it. I did ask a friend once what she preferred to be called, just out of curiosity, and she said "I'm black! I'm not from Africa, and you all aren't allowed to call me a n*****!"

 

But, that was her opinion!

[CAMom]

 

But I still like that far better than referring to people by the color of their skin, like that is any more meaningful or useful than attempting to use cultural indentifiers.

 

I can see that. But, how would you know just by looking at someone what their cultural identifiers are? You couldn't look at me and know that I am part Irish, part German and part Norwegian. I can't look at someone with dark skin and know if they are African American or if they are from another country.

 

Thank you all for the thoughtful discussion. I still don't know what's preferred but at least I have lots to think about now.:)

[MamaT]

I don't know about other countries, but my adopted daughters do not like to be called African-American. They have never been to Africa and were born in the U.S. They prefer black.

[ereks mom]

I don't use the term African American. I just use black.

 

:iagree:

[vonfirmath]

um, I've also wondered: if you are "white" but born in Africa and now live in the US are you "African American"? Seems like a yes to me, but confusing KWIM?

 

This happened and the South African kid was actually told he could NOT refer to himself as African-American because he was white!

[ChristusG]

I guess I don't understand why it is not proper to just use the word black. I sure don't mind if they refer to me as being white. African American just doesn't make sense.....I don't refer to white people as Americans, or Australians, or any other country term. And there are black people from those countries as well.

 

When you are describing someone, you want to describe them in the least amount of terms as possible. I could stand there and say "Hey, do you remember the lady in the red dress? Wait, there were lots of those. She had brown hair. Oh, that doesn't narrow it down much, does it? Well, she was wearing black shoes and was standing beside the guy with the striped tie who talked a lot. Yeah, that lady."

 

OR....

 

I could say "You know the black lady in the red dress? Yeah, that's her."

 

I don't see what's wrong with just saying black. It's not derogatory. It's not condemning. It is what it is. Just like describing a heavy set person by saying they are heavy set. You are not making fun of them. You are describing them so that someone else will know who you are referring to. Just as you would refer to someone as having red hair, or a man as being tall, or someone having curly hair.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I don't use the term African American. I just use black.

 

Yep...if I need and even notice. All of my friends use the term black. I find it most respectful to use the term people want to be used just like my name is Pamela, not Pam (well, except to a few people who didn't change over when I finally made a decision which I waited an incredibly long time to do).

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I am white, of European descent, and I dated a black American for 3 years. He and his family referred to themselves as black, so that is what I did.

[Matryoshka]

I can see that. But, how would you know just by looking at someone what their cultural identifiers are? You couldn't look at me and know that I am part Irish, part German and part Norwegian. I can't look at someone with dark skin and know if they are African American or if they are from another country.

 

Nope. So maybe we should stop categorizing people by how they look and start talking to them and find out how they identify themselves...

[CAMom]

Nope. So maybe we should stop categorizing people by how they look and start talking to them and find out how they identify themselves...

 

Oh I definitely agree with that! But, our society does group people by labels. Look at virtually any form we fill out-you are asked your "group." When I watch the news, etc. I hear the term African American virtually every time.

 

So, I'm just wondering what the most correct thing to do is.:confused: I'm not asking so that I can go around categorizing folks by how they look but so that when using certain labels is appropriate I don't go offending anyone.:)

[Plink]

My DD uses the terms "beautiful dark skinned woman" and "handsome dark skinned man." I've heard those two phrases so often that I use them all the time now. Darker skin color is something my DD really admires (the way I admire thin women or strong men), and I think her way of expressing it is lovely.

 

To me, identifying a person based on their skin color is perfectly acceptable. It is an obvious trait, and trying to pretend not to notice it makes me simply uncomfortable.

[cathmom]

I don't know if it's just my kids, but from early on they used and still use skin color in the way we might say, "the child with the blond hair," or "the very tall boy." They'll say "the children across the street with the dark skin" or "the brown skin." I thought it interesting that in their experience when they did not know of labels like African-American or Black, it was just natural to describe them the way they look just like they would any other person.

 

My DD uses the terms "beautiful dark skinned woman" and "handsome dark skinned man." I've heard those two phrases so often that I use them all the time now. Darker skin color is something my DD really admires (the way I admire thin women or strong men), and I think her way of expressing it is lovely.

 

 

 

My children have done the same thing, same words.

[Laura Corin]

In Britain, Black people are mostly called Black, or sometimes Black British, with Black Briton as the noun. As an interesting side-note, the ancestors of Asian British people came from the Indian subcontinent. Chinese British people are Chinese British, not Asian British.

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

But what about someone who is South African and became an American citizen, yet is white? They would technically be African American too. Not all Africans are necessarily black!

 

But how that would work for someone who takes up a US passport I don't know.

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

I know a man who is a black African, and he dislikes the term "African American." He thinks that is somehow disrespectful to people who are actually from an African country. It attaches citizenship or national heritage to skin color, which becomes...confusing.

 

What I really find strange though is when a tourist (usually American) says to me 'I'm English' without adding the hyphenated 'American'. I do understand that the person is expressing their cultural heritage, but I feel a little as though my real, experienced, personal background is being usurped by someone who has never before visited my country. I have to stop myself from saying, 'No, you're not.'

 

Laura

[HistoryMom]

May I contribute? For street cred: I have a graduate degree specialization in African-American and ethnic history.

 

It's a personal choice whether people prefer to refer to themselves as African American, African-American, black, Black, person of color, or some other ethnic description. All of the self-applied terms are acceptable.

 

However:

* Because there is confusion with other geographies (Haitians=Creole, British=Black or Afro-British, Caribbean=Afro-Caribbean, etc.), as was mentioned.

* Because, all of those terms assume that a "black" person is of 100% African descent, whereas the reality is that most people, especially Americans (no matter what they look like), are a descended from a blend of ethnicities;

* And because other countries (especially those of with a Spanish and French influences) have historically delineated even further, creating specific terms for specific ethnic percentages and combinations, proving that labels for race are really socially constructed anyway and don't have a basis in biology;

 

I prefer "person of color" or "person of African descent." Then again, I don't take offense (and don't know anyone who does) at any of the above terms. The only thing I don't appreciate is when someone is referred to as a "Black", rather than a "Black person" or "black person." When I'm talking to my children about race, I expose them to all of the acceptable variations for ethnic descriptors, but most often use "person of color" and ask them to only describe someone's ethnicity when it is relevant to the discussion. For example, the man on the street is not "black"; he's the one wearing the red hat. Her friend's Asian Indian heritage is relevant when we're talking about her mother's beautiful sari and jewelry collection, but not when we're talking about what she did in school that day.

 

I also am seriously dorky in that I ask the kids to describe their own (Nordic) skin color as "pinkish beige." :)

[Spy Car]

I'm dorky enought to not like "person of color" because I think of pinkish-beige as a "color" too :D

 

Bill (pinkish :tongue_smilie:)

[stripe]

Barack Obama is part Kenyan-American.

 

Actually, he's part Kenyan; his father wasn't American as far as I know. His mother was the American.

 

What I hate is the term "people with an ethnic background." Everyone has an ethnic background.

 

I think what's also not obvious is that African Americans are not uniform in color, so the idea that you always know when someone is part African is deceptive anyhow. Marcia Clark referred to an "African American" hair during the OJ Simpson trial, and it made me groan. How about "tightly curled" or whatever? Did it carry a passport?

 

I do think that most African Americans AND most African immigrants see a difference between the two groups, and find the desire to conflate them confusing.

Edited September 7, 2010 by stripe

[Spy Car]

Actually, he's part Kenyan; his father wasn't American as far as I know. His mother was the American.

 

While "Kenyan" by nationality Mr Obama's father was ethnically "Luo."

 

In a country that is often fractured along ethnic lines (and where the Luo are relatively disempowered) the "joke" in Kenya early in the last American presidential election (and whilst Mr Obama was still a long-shot) was that America might have have a Luo President before Kenya did.

 

And so it was.

 

Bill (who knows it's "half-Luo")

[stripe]

While "Kenyan" by nationality Mr Obama's father was ethnically "Luo."

Indeed. But he certainly wasn't American, and I don't think most people know many ethnic groups of other countries (including China).

[cathmom]

I'm dorky enought to not like "person of color" because I think of pinkish-beige as a "color" too :D

 

Bill (pinkish :tongue_smilie:)

 

:lol:

[HistoryMom]

I'm dorky enought to not like "person of color" because I think of pinkish-beige as a "color" too :D

 

Bill (pinkish :tongue_smilie:)

 

True that. Score one for Bill. :)

[EmmaNZ]

I am English and white, married to a man who is more 'English' than me but his skin is brown and his parents are originally from Pakistan.

 

In my experience it doesn't matter what term you decide to use; be that a skin colour (brown), a nationality (Pakistani), a religion (Muslim); the important factor is HOW you use that term. You can say 'the black man' as a purely descriptive term, and you can say 'the black man' and mean it in a derogatory and racist way. It is abundantly clear what is meant in both cases.

 

Having said that, I'm not in America and I get the feeling things are different over there.

[CAMom]

In Britain, Black people are mostly called Black, or sometimes Black British, with Black Briton as the noun. As an interesting side-note, the ancestors of Asian British people came from the Indian subcontinent. Chinese British people are Chinese British, not Asian British.

 

 

 

Thanks for chiming in, Laura. I was very interested to know what terms are used in other countries.

 

May I contribute? For street cred: I have a graduate degree specialization in African-American and ethnic history.

 

 

 

Thanks for your contribution! Interesting observations.

 

I think maybe I just need to realize that no matter how hard I try not to offend regarding this issue, I'm going to offend somebody at some time.;)

[HistoryMom]

I think maybe I just need to realize that no matter how hard I try not to offend regarding this issue, I'm going to offend somebody at some time.;)

 

When I was in school, there was, of course, a lot of discussion about this very issue. In every circumstance, for every 10 people of color in the class, there were 10 slightly different opinions on how they'd like their ethnicities described. There was no "right" or "wrong." Just go with what feels respectful, and you won't offend. :)

 

ETA: And thanks for opening up this conversation. Our society is so squeamish about race relations that we end up with lots of misunderstandings. It's better to be able to talk about it in an open and honest way, and defuse any confusion or tension that can result from apparent differences.

Edited September 4, 2010 by HistoryMom

[mcconnellboys]

I thought that "black" was the appropriate term now, rather than "African American".....

[Alphabetika]

I say "black."

 

I have a friend who is a female, black poet. She was once slated to do a poetry reading at a large writers' convention. The publicity department called her, all a-flutter, and asked, "How would you like us to describe you in the program? A black, woman poet? An African-American female poet? (add a few other combinations here)." She told them, "Just say I'm a poet. They'll find out the rest when they show up.";)

[JFSinIL]

Can you just pick another distinguishing characteristic besides skin tone? How about the one in the gorgeous red dress? or the shimmering pearls?

 

That is what I do - go for height/smile/clothes - whatever seems "neutral".

 

My son with autism thinks people are "chocolate" or "pink" !!!