Catholic Conversion - Play Devil's Advocate

[Giraffe]

I'm NOT asking for Catholic bashing!

 

I have been searching and reading for several months based on the wonderful recommendations from this board and am considering reconciliation with the Catholic church. However, before I go too much further, I'd like to hear intelligent arguments from the other side. So I'm asking the hive for book recommendations that debunk Catholicism or intelligently argue for the Protestant faith.

 

I grew up Protestant, conservative, evangelical, but am finding that a lot of the questions I had are being answered by Catholic theology, not Protestant. Perhaps I'm missing something in Protestant theology. Any recommendations?

 

I want to make an informed decision. I am praying a lot.

 

Thank you!

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm NOT asking for Catholic bashing!

 

I have been searching and reading for several months based on the wonderful recommendations from this board and am considering reconciliation with the Catholic church. However, before I go too much further, I'd like to hear intelligent arguments from the other side. So I'm asking the hive for book recommendations that debunk Catholicism or intelligently argue for the Protestant faith.

 

I grew up Protestant, conservative, evangelical, but am finding that a lot of the questions I had are being answered by Catholic theology, not Protestant. Perhaps I'm missing something in Protestant theology. Any recommendations?

 

I want to make an informed decision. I am praying a lot.

 

Thank you!

 

That would help a lot in making recommendations.

Also, have you checked out the Orthodox strand of the church catholic? I believe that it's more historical than the Roman Catholic church.

Personally I am Lutheran, so not either one.

[Giraffe]

I'm reading "Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic". I have a Catholic friend who's going to send me a bunch of books to help with my search from the Catholic perspective.

 

My current sources for Protestantism are my Bible and my own knowledge growing up in a super conservative evangelical church. Sunday School every week, church 2-3 times a week (Sun AM, Sun PM, and mid-week service). I don't want to alarm my family by asking them or my pastor back home for recommendations for reading (they're several states away and will go into conniptions at the very thought of this quest) and I don't know anyone here in my new home that I'm comfortable asking for help.

 

I am looking for either personal conversion stories similar to "Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic" but from the other side or discussions of why the Protestant faith is correct based on scripture and reasoned arguments.

 

ETA: I may look at Orthodoxy, but right now I have too much on my plate to expand beyond Catholicism vs. Protestantism. Thanks!

[Terabith]

I love Orthodox theology, but the problem is that finding an active congregation (particularly an English speaking, American culture one), is very difficult.

[musicianmom]

I recommend The Spirituality of the Cross.

[Wee Pip]

I highly recommend reading The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. Ok, Catholics typically don't like her or this book, BUT...when I read it, half of me really found a strong argument FOR Catholicism - I could see the need for the body of believers to have a universal creed and a system of leadership. I think different people will come to a different conclusion after reading that book, but it does present the issues that the early church faced and we are facing those same issues today. Books/movies like The Da Vinci Code show gnosticism in our culture today. I recommend reading The Gnostic Gospels and coming to your own conclusion:) Maybe it will help you put your own thoughts into perspective?

My own reason for not becoming Catholic is that I do not agree with the directions taken by the church leadership historically and currently, therefore, I am unable to commit. This internal dichotomy (to go Catholic or not to go Catholic) is something I've been battling for 8 yrs now and see no end in sight:lol:

[Jugglin'5]

I recommend "The Shape of Sola Scriptura" by Keith Mathison,, and, with some reservations, "The Reformation's Conflict with Rome" by Robert Reymond.

[elizabeth]

I highly recommend reading The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. Ok, Catholics typically don't like her or this book, BUT...when I read it, half of me really found a strong argument FOR Catholicism - I could see the need for the body of believers to have a universal creed and a system of leadership. I think different people will come to a different conclusion after reading that book, but it does present the issues that the early church faced and we are facing those same issues today. Books/movies like The Da Vinci Code show gnosticism in our culture today. I recommend reading The Gnostic Gospels and coming to your own conclusion:) Maybe it will help you put your own thoughts into perspective?

My own reason for not becoming Catholic is that I do not agree with the directions taken by the church leadership historically and currently, therefore, I am unable to commit. This internal dichotomy (to go Catholic or not to go Catholic) is something I've been battling for 8 yrs now and see no end in sight:lol:

 

This Catholic loves Elaine Pagels and reads her books often. I also am a fan of any books written by Henri Nouwen, Pope John Paul II and Dominic Crossan. I must say the last paragraph of your post makes me nod in agreement.

[milovany]

I love Orthodox theology, but the problem is that finding an active congregation (particularly an English speaking, American culture one), is very difficult.

 

Have you checked here? (This directory is vast, but even it's not complete -- our active mission parish is not listed). The Orthodox Church parishes that I'm familiar with are English speaking. Orthodoxy in America has been increasing and there are new parishes springing up in quite a wide variety of places.

[Parrothead]

I would like to offer a word of caution. Double check any information you may be given about what Catholics do or believe. (And really this goes for anyone converting to any religion.) If Author A says those crazy Catholics do or believe this, that or the other, check with your parish priest or a Catholic knowledgeable about his/her faith.

 

Author A may not be understanding a teaching of the Church in the proper manner. For instance, papal infallibility. Many people, even Catholics that do not know the teachings of their faith well, think that papal infallibility means that the Holy Father is never wrong. That couldn't be further from the truth.

[2squared]

Have you looked at Scott Hahn's conversion story? I think you can get it for free in audio version as well.

 

Here it is. http://www.catholicity.com/cds/hahn.html

[mom2a&z]

Last year I was in the same position you are in now. I came from a Southern Baptist background and was questioning the Protestant theology that I had always been taught.

 

Just a few of the books I read were Born Fudamentalist and Born Again Catholic, Rome Sweet Home, The Four Witnesses, and Catholicism and Fundamentalism. I also started listening to a radio program called Cathoic Answers Live. I found answers to questions I didn't even know I had. It was very eye opening to study the Christian faith from a Catholic perspective. After many months of reading, prayer, more reading, and more prayer I came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is where I belong.

 

So I can't offer you any intelligent arguments as to why the Protestant faith is the way to go but I can give you encouragement as you continue on your faith journey.

[asta]

I would read Martin Luther's Address to the Christian Nobility of the German Nation from 1520 wherein he sets out his argument for, well, Lutheranism.

 

It is quite an eye opener. Especially for the lay person who has always been taught that Luther was a Catholic priest who, disgusted with the sale of indulgences by the Pope in Rome, nailed his 95 theses to the door of the church in Wittemburg, and "beseeched the Pope to reform the Church."

 

Well, according to the church in Wittemburg, that's not quite how it went. Or rather, that may be how it went for approximately a week, but after that, it was all cult of personality baby: and a structure arose that rivaled Rome in all but name.

 

The original documents are quite interesting, actually. And I would take notes of the bits about how one should treat the poor and what should be done with the "temporal possessions of the (Catholic) Church".

 

Best of luck in your search,

 

 

asta

[Terabith]

Have you checked here? (This directory is vast, but even it's not complete -- our active mission parish is not listed). The Orthodox Church parishes that I'm familiar with are English speaking. Orthodoxy in America has been increasing and there are new parishes springing up in quite a wide variety of places.

 

Yeah, but not in Roanoke, VA. And the ones I've seen are still VERY small.

[Ellie]

Here are two excellent web sites:

 

Defenders of the Catholic Faith

 

The Coming Home Network

[Jugglin'5]

The caution also applies in the reverse. I have read many conversion stories to Rome that misrepresented Protestantism. It seems that since the OP is requesting books from both sides of the issue that she is probably well aware of that dynamic.

[milovany]

Yeah, but not in Roanoke, VA. And the ones I've seen are still VERY small.

 

Just because I was curious I clicked the link and looked for Roanoke -- there's an OCA mission there that's probably English speaking. Have you seen that one? We attend a mission parish that would be considered small (25-35 people for Divine Liturgy on Sunday, including children), but we regularly have a priest for services and are a vibrant community. The others (Russian, Greek) might also have their serves in English, but not as likely. Divine Liturgy is the same service whatever language it's in, by the way -- so if you learn how the service runs in English (and you can find it online), then you'll know what's happening even if you can't understand the words. But you've maybe already checked all that out!! Sorry if I'm butting in. You can PM me if we don't want to continue going off topic on this thread if you'd like. (Oh, and I also saw that there's also a monastery an hour and a half away for occasional visits -- that's about how far our nearest monastery is. We go there several times a year.)

Edited June 18, 2010 by milovaný

[hornblower]

I can't resist pointing out that this thread title is odd. I mean do you really want the devil's position? :D

 

 

best wishes on your journey though :)

[Crimson Wife]

I'm a Catholic but think that if you want to read arguments in favor of Protestant Christianity, you should go read the writings of the major figures of the Protestant Reformation- Luther, Calvin, John Knox, etc.

 

Beware of modern-day "testimonial" stories as they often give emotional arguments rather than theological ones. I have no problem with someone becoming a Protestant because they did their homework and decided they agree with Protestant theology. I do have a *BIG* problem with folks who say they became a Protestant because they wanted a "personal relationship with Jesus". That just shows their ignorance of Catholicism. :rolleyes:

[Guest mrsjamiesouth]

I think this is opposite of what you are looking for, but I recently have read some really good books. I am Protestant, but do not feel Catholicism has to be totally wrong. My mother was raised strict Irish Catholic, but raised us non-denominational. As an adult I was saved and decided I feel most comfortable in Evangelical churches. I have visited almost every kind of worship service. I think if the Church believes the basic Truths that you believe, then you should pray about where to go and leave it up to God.

 

These 2 books were written by Protestants but talk about the great things of Catholicism.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Cloister-Walk-Kathleen-Norris/dp/1573225843

 

http://www.amazon.com/Monk-Habits-Everyday-People-Spirituality/dp/1587431858/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276883241&sr=1-1

[Terabith]

Just because I was curious I clicked the link and looked for Roanoke -- there's an OCA mission there that's probably English speaking. Have you seen that one? We attend a mission parish that would be considered small (25-35 people for Divine Liturgy on Sunday, including children), but we regularly have a priest for services and are a vibrant community. The others (Russian, Greek) might also have their serves in English, but not as likely. Divine Liturgy is the same service whatever language it's in, by the way -- so if you learn how the service runs in English (and you can find it online), then you'll know what's happening even if you can't understand the words. But you've maybe already checked all that out!! Sorry if I'm butting in. You can PM me if we don't want to continue going off topic on this thread if you'd like. (Oh, and I also saw that there's also a monastery an hour and a half away for occasional visits -- that's about how far our nearest monastery is. We go there several times a year.)

 

You're right. Actually, I haven't been there, but a friend did.....she said the congregation consisted of FIVE people. I'm not sure I could handle the position of women, but I do enjoy reading some of the Church Fathers.

[ktgrok]

I love most catholic theology. I love the church. I love the traditions. However, I think the way the heirarchy is set up is silly at best, dangerous at worst. The fact that the laity have NO SAY over who their priest is, how funds are spent, etc is not responsible in my opinion and is why there have been so many scandals. I attend an Episcopal church for this reason. My other option is Orthodox, whose theology i respect even more.

 

Oh, and I don't agree at ALL with the idea of the immaculate conception. I'd say look at Orthodox before you decide on R.C.

 

Katie

[Guest Amy in MS]

I'm NOT asking for Catholic bashing!

 

I have been searching and reading for several months based on the wonderful recommendations from this board and am considering reconciliation with the Catholic church. However, before I go too much further, I'd like to hear intelligent arguments from the other side. So I'm asking the hive for book recommendations that debunk Catholicism or intelligently argue for the Protestant faith.

 

I grew up Protestant, conservative, evangelical, but am finding that a lot of the questions I had are being answered by Catholic theology, not Protestant. Perhaps I'm missing something in Protestant theology. Any recommendations?

 

I want to make an informed decision. I am praying a lot.

 

Thank you!

 

I'd recommend _Jesus Interrupted_ by Bart Ehrman and _The God Delusion_ by Richard Dawkins.

 

That may not be what you're really looking for, but I they'd be a great read in considering any faith/spirituality/conversion, etc.

[milovany]

You're right. Actually, I haven't been there, but a friend did.....she said the congregation consisted of FIVE people. I'm not sure I could handle the position of women, but I do enjoy reading some of the Church Fathers.

 

5, wow. Although I recall the first night we went to a service (Saturday night Vespers), dh and I walked in and the 2 readers were already started with the service. There was no one else there. About 15 minutes later another lady came in. That was IT.

 

Do you care to PM me about your thoughts re: women? I think maybe I know what you mean (no women priests?), but it's interesting because I have found so much more honor as a woman in this church than in any other (and see that throughout it's history too). So I'm just curious but again don't want to derail the thread. If you don't want to PM, no worries!!! We can just leave it here. :)

[Hannah C.]

5, wow. Although I recall the first night we went to a service (Saturday night Vespers), dh and I walked in and the 2 readers were already started with the service. There was no one else there. About 15 minutes later another lady came in. That was IT.

 

Did you try attending a Sunday service? From my experience at various different churches which offer daily services, VERY FEW people go to church services other than Sunday morning ones. (For Catholics, Saturday nights may also be attended because it fulfills the Sunday Mass obligation..but other than that, people don't like weekday services usually.)

 

To the OP: I'm kind of in the same boat with you! I have yet to find a solid book defending Protestant theology, perhaps because there are so many variations of it. Reading the original Reformers is helpful, but Protestantism has changed since then as well.

 

Catholic resources: If you haven't looked at it, the Catechism is a wonderful resource for finding out what the Church *really* believes. Papal encyclicals are good too, and can be found on the Vatican's website. I've found there's actually a lot of variation in Catholic beliefs, especially when it comes to the saints, praying to the saints/Mary, etc. -- the peripheral stuff.

 

At this point I probably know basic Catholic theology better than some Catholics..going to a conservative Catholic college will do that to you, as will doing research into Catholic theology. :) There are some points where I just find myself not agreeing with the Church, though, and that's why I'm not Catholic and have no plans of becoming Catholic anytime soon. I have actually read very few books about Protestant theology and therefore they have played no role in the process.

[Susan in KY]

I grew up Catholic and left Rome for the Protestant church as a young adult. It was a hard decision in the making and I would say I suffered some within my family for the choice I made. That was painful, to say the least, but I made the switch from a few very definite convictions. I will share them below, but I have no desire to be divisive, so feel free to read or ignore as you choose.

 

Growing up, I was never really aware (and I am dumbfounded by this now) that Catholicism was *Christian* perse.... I just assumed in my young mind that being Catholic is what got me into heaven—there was no understanding of the sacrifice on the cross nor of the personal relationship God wants with all His children (and by that I mean all people everywhere, not just Christians). I went to Catechism classes for 8 years straight, from first through 8th grades, and I somehow missed this key point of Christianity. I was 20 when I finally understood it through friends and the Bible (at the time I was reading a Catholic Bible, which I had never done before).

 

I still considered myself a Catholic when I asked Jesus to come into my life and change me, make me new, help me live for Him, and give me His peace and joy. I remained Catholic for two more years, though I attended two services every week, with a foot in both worlds. I gave up going to the Catholic church when I moved and asked God to put me in the right place. Though a series of bizarre events, I wound up at a little Evangelical Free church that was great. I have been a protestant ever since, attending various denominations.

 

Anyway, the key things that caused me to question the Catholic church after having become a follower of Jesus were these: 1) Matthew 1:24,25 and 2) The Ten Commandments.

 

The first states that Joseph did not have marital relations with Mary until after Jesus was born. This directly implies that they did engage in normal marital behavior afterwards. There are other places in the Bible that discuss his brothers and sisters, which the Catholic theologians contend are actually cousins. That argument never held water for me because of other places in the Bible which mention cousins as opposed to brothers and sisters. Regardless, the point is that the Bible maintains they eventually were man and wife, whereas the Catholic church teaches that Mary was a perpetual virgin. There was even a prayer we prayed, "Blessed Mary, ever virgin...."

 

That issue really bothered me, so I went to the most fervent, reverant, likable, passionate priest I knew and asked him about it. He explained to me that the Catholic church has two authorities: tradition and Scripture. Where there is a conflict, they go with tradition. He personally hoped they had a normal relationship. (!) This bothered me, because it seemed a little nebulous and arbitrary. If Scripture were the authority, it seems like there wouldn't be a conflict to begin with. So Scripture seemed to negate one key belief of the Catholic church, and a prayer I remembered praying daily as a child. This was a serious crack in the foundation, as far as I was concerned.

 

Eventually, I was invited to a Bible study training where one of the example lessons we covered was the Ten Commandments. It was at the chapel on the military base were I was stationed, so the training had to be interdenominational. Well.... I was shocked to learn that Catholics and Protestants have different versions of the 10 commandments! How could that be, since we both read the same text?

 

I went to the passage in the Old Testament and took a look—sure enough, the passage said what the Protestants taught, not what I learned as a child.

 

With in the Catholic church, I never learned the one that stated, (Exodus 20:4-5) - "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God...."

 

Instead, the commandment about not coveting was split in two: you shall not covet your neighbors goods and you shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

 

As I read the original text, I was really struck as to why the church would leave off idolatry and place double emphasis on covetousness. Then I thought about the fact that every week, I knelt before the communion host and I wondered really why I was doing that. Was I really kneeling before God himself, or a symbol of God? And if I was kneeing before God in the form of bread, could it be that possibly I was participating in some form of idolatry? And why did we call it, "The sacrifice of the mass?" The Bible states that there was one sacrifice for all time for the forgiveness of sins (see Hebrews 10:11-14), and we don't need another. We need to remember the first! (1 Corinthians 11:23-34)

 

This is the crux of the issue, I think, and one that needs to be considered very carefully. I fully understand many people's (perhaps your?) restlessness with today's American Protestant church. There is such a push for familiarity that we miss out on the reverence for God that our souls desperately need. I have often thought of trying to find a high church protestant denomination, where God is revered and worshiped for the king He is instead of the nice guy we'd all like to sit around with having a cup of coffee.

 

This is likely to be incendiary, even though I did not mean for it to be so, it is just my pilgrimage. Flame away, I will not be able to go back to a church that doesn't make the Bible the bottom line. HOWEVER, having said all this, I am not so convinced that God cares as much about any of our delineations as He does about finding people who want to worship him in Spirit and in Truth. (John 4:21-23.) Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

 

God bless you on your journey.

Susan

[MyFourSons]

I love most catholic theology. I love the church. I love the traditions. However, I think the way the heirarchy is set up is silly at best, dangerous at worst. The fact that the laity have NO SAY over who their priest is, how funds are spent, etc is not responsible in my opinion and is why there have been so many scandals. I attend an Episcopal church for this reason. My other option is Orthodox, whose theology i respect even more.

 

Oh, and I don't agree at ALL with the idea of the immaculate conception. I'd say look at Orthodox before you decide on R.C.

 

Katie

 

Whether or not the parishioners have control over how their parish funds are spent depends entirely on the parish and the diocese you live in. I have moved several times, and I have belonged to parishes where the priest oversaw the parish, but let the Parish Council basically run the show. Since the council was voted and appointed by the parishioners, and they held public meetings where parishioners could speak on various issues, it was democratic. Of course, other parishes have priests that do not want lay involvement. But, from my experience serving on various commitees and attending diocosan meetings, and working for the diocese as a teacher, most of the day to day operations of the diocese I lived in were run by lay people. The clergy were the authority on doctrine and made sure what was being done was in line with church teaching, but actual administrative positions were usually held by devoted lay people.

 

Also, I have belonged in parishes where a new priest simply didn't "mesh" well with the parishioners or the overall culture of the parish. They ended up being pulled rather quickly and placed somewhere else by the Bishop. Any good Bishop is going to try to place priests in areas that will be a good fit for their skills and personalities, and a good Bishop will also listen to he complaints of the lay people and take it into account. Therefore, the people of the parish do have a say, even if indirect, on who their pastor is.

 

As far as the Immaculate Conception, the best argument I have ever read for this comes from Dr. Scott Hahn, a former protestant minister who converted to Catholocism. While you may not agree with him, he lays out Catholic doctrine in clear terms with the scriptural background behind the theology. As a former protestant minister, scripture is a major focus of his, which I find fascinating as scripture was not a major emphasis for me growing up as a cradle Catholic (something that many within the leadership of the church, including Dr. Hahn, are trying to rectify). Dr. Hahn has written many books with interesting historical and scriptural information on Catholic doctrine, you can look on Amazon for reviews. Here is a transcript of one of his talks on the subject:

 

http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/5thdogma/hahn.htm

Edited June 18, 2010 by MyFourSons

[Crimson Wife]

Wow, there's so much misinformation about what Catholics believe in Susan's post that I don't even know where to begin. This is why it's so important that you be careful when reading "testimonials" from Protestants and double-check them against actual Catholic doctrine.

[Tiramisu]

Have you looked at Scott Hahn's conversion story? I think you can get it for free in audio version as well.

 

Here it is. http://www.catholicity.com/cds/hahn.html

 

Here are two excellent web sites:

 

Defenders of the Catholic Faith

 

The Coming Home Network

 

These are very worthwhile suggestions. I can't imagine that Scott or Kimberly Hahn or Marcus Grodi left any stone unturned when they were investigating whether to join the Catholic Church. They were Protestant ministers with congregations that they had to worry about leading astray! They must have covered all their bases, and more, and could certainly address any points that concern you.

[Renee in NC]

The caution also applies in the reverse. I have read many conversion stories to Rome that misrepresented Protestantism. It seems that since the OP is requesting books from both sides of the issue that she is probably well aware of that dynamic.

 

With 10,000 versions of Protestantism, any author can only speak for *their* particular denomination (or in many cases, their particular church in their particular denomination.) The comparison to the United Methodist Church, for example, is going to very different than a fundamentalist Baptist church.

[Carol in Cal.]

These are very worthwhile suggestions. I can't imagine that Scott or Kimberly Hahn or Marcus Grodi left any stone unturned when they were investigating whether to join the Catholic Church. They were Protestant ministers with congregations that they had to worry about leading astray! They must have covered all their bases, and more, and could certainly address any points that concern you.

 

He left a lot of stones unturned. I kept thinking as I was reading, wow, too bad you weren't Lutheran or you wouldn't say this about the Eucharist. Wow, you can't seriously understand the Marian devotion as completely contrary to Protestantism if you're Lutheran. Wow, you have no idea what this passage says in context.

 

I think that he's clearly very sincere, but I found that his use of the Bible was very much a proof text version and quite significantly distorted in places.

 

It was interesting stuff, but he doesn't really understand historic Lutheran or, for that matter, Episcopalian teachings.

[silliness7]

[quote name=Hopscotch67;1803951

 

I grew up Protestant' date=' conservative, evangelical, but am finding that a lot of the questions I had are being answered by Catholic theology, not Protestant. Perhaps I'm missing something in Protestant theology. Any recommendations?

 

I want to make an informed decision. I am praying a lot.

 

 

I grew up with a Protestant, conservative, evangelical background as well. Contemporary evangelicalism is anemic in it's theology and leaves one with LOTS of questions that it just cannot answer.

 

I had a lot of personal theological struggles and through my own prayer and scripture reading became a Calvinist in spirit before I knew what the term was. When I began reading from a Protestant Reformed perspective (which is DEEP...not the fluffy evangelical of today) and discovered that there were other people like me AND that they had answers to my other hundreds of questions it was balm for my soul.

 

Desiring God by John Piper or anything by John Piper would be a good place to start. Or read some online articles from Modern Reformation at

www.modernreformation.org

 

 

If you've already investigated theology from a reformed perspective and decided against it, forgive me for throwing in my 2 cents. :001_smile:

[AuntieM]

I have yet to read the other replies. I believe that you must search this out for very own self.

 

The most basic questions I'd want answered from each point of view are these:

 

What is the nature of God?

What is the nature of man?

What is required for man to stand righteously before God (ie, how does one gain entrance to heaven)?

 

Once you get some answers on this from a catechism source (ie,Vatican Council, Westminster Confession, etc), go to the original source of all Christian beliefs, the Bible. Read through, the New Testament in particular, and see how what the Word says compares to each of the doctrinal positions (Catholic vs Protestant). Take your time, there's not really a reason to make a knee-jerk decision about this, as long as you are actively and prayerfully seeking the truth.

 

FWIW, I believe finding a church is different from finding a doctrinal stance. If you are looking for something more liturgical, that style can be found on either side of the aisle.

 

Set your mind on Christ, may He guide you in this exploration.

 

ETA: After glancing through the other posts, my reply seems.... well, pretty simple. But I'll stick with it. Because I believe the heart and soul of *any* faith choice is how a sinful man is reconciled to a Holy God. Get that figured out, and the rest will fall into order. JMO.

Edited June 18, 2010 by AuntieM

[Guest caramelcream]

I grew up a Prostestant and became a Catholic ten years ago. My husband is also a convert (seven years ago). I did the same thing you are doing. I read and prayed and met with priests (both Orthodox and Catholic) for six years before I came into the Church. Orthodox and Catholic theology is very similar (although the Orthodox would not necessarily agree with that), but the emphases and aesthetics of the churches differ; I am a Byzantine Catholic, so our liturgy, emphases and aesthetics are the same as the one you find in a Greek or Russian Orthodox church, but we are Catholic (we believe that the Pope was made the head of the Church on earth by Christ). Many Roman Catholics do not even know that the Eastern Catholics exist, in my experience. It is a shame, as the Eastern Catholic Churches are such a rich and beautiful part of Catholic heritage.

I sought out the same type of literature you are doing now; I bought and read anti-Catholic materials written by Protestants, which only solidified my decision to join the Catholic Church. My husband, in his journey, read the Gnostic Gospels (recommended above) and those did the same for him; the flaws became very obvious, once we started asking questions.

I would recommend reading The Brothers Karamozov (over and over!). It was one of the main influences in my conversion, and I continue to re-read it and get more and more out of it. Dostoevsky was Orthodox himself, of course, but in the end he helped to lead me to the Catholic Church.

I cannot recall the names of the anti-Catholic literature I read, so I cannot make recommendations in that way. I can say that it all seemed very uninformed and misled regarding what the Catholic Church actually teaches and full of faulty assumptions.

[asta]

This is likely to be incendiary, even though I did not mean for it to be so, it is just my pilgrimage. Flame away, I will not be able to go back to a church that doesn't make the Bible the bottom line. HOWEVER, having said all this, I am not so convinced that God cares as much about any of our delineations as He does about finding people who want to worship him in Spirit and in Truth. (John 4:21-23.) Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

 

God bless you on your journey.

Susan

 

It kind of depends on which bible, and who originally wrote and translated it. ;)

 

 

a

[MyFourSons]

"Anyway, the key things that caused me to question the Catholic church after having become a follower of Jesus were these: 1) Matthew 1:24,25 and 2) The Ten Commandments.

 

The first states that Joseph did not have marital relations with Mary until after Jesus was born. This directly implies that they did engage in normal marital behavior afterwards. There are other places in the Bible that discuss his brothers and sisters, which the Catholic theologians contend are actually cousins. That argument never held water for me because of other places in the Bible which mention cousins as opposed to brothers and sisters. Regardless, the point is that the Bible maintains they eventually were man and wife, whereas the Catholic church teaches that Mary was a perpetual virgin. There was even a prayer we prayed, "Blessed Mary, ever virgin...."

 

That issue really bothered me, so I went to the most fervent, reverant, likable, passionate priest I knew and asked him about it. He explained to me that the Catholic church has two authorities: tradition and Scripture. Where there is a conflict, they go with tradition. He personally hoped they had a normal relationship. (!) This bothered me, because it seemed a little nebulous and arbitrary. If Scripture were the authority, it seems like there wouldn't be a conflict to begin with. So Scripture seemed to negate one key belief of the Catholic church, and a prayer I remembered praying daily as a child. This was a serious crack in the foundation, as far as I was concerned.

 

Eventually, I was invited to a Bible study training where one of the example lessons we covered was the Ten Commandments. It was at the chapel on the military base were I was stationed, so the training had to be interdenominational. Well.... I was shocked to learn that Catholics and Protestants have different versions of the 10 commandments! How could that be, since we both read the same text?

 

I went to the passage in the Old Testament and took a look—sure enough, the passage said what the Protestants taught, not what I learned as a child.

 

With in the Catholic church, I never learned the one that stated, (Exodus 20:4-5) - "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God...."

 

Instead, the commandment about not coveting was split in two: you shall not covet your neighbors goods and you shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

 

As I read the original text, I was really struck as to why the church would leave off idolatry and place double emphasis on covetousness. Then I thought about the fact that every week, I knelt before the communion host and I wondered really why I was doing that. Was I really kneeling before God himself, or a symbol of God? And if I was kneeing before God in the form of bread, could it be that possibly I was participating in some form of idolatry? And why did we call it, "The sacrifice of the mass?" The Bible states that there was one sacrifice for all time for the forgiveness of sins (see Hebrews 10:11-14), and we don't need another. We need to remember the first! (1 Corinthians 11:23-34)

 

This is the crux of the issue, I think, and one that needs to be considered very carefully. I fully understand many people's (perhaps your?) restlessness with today's American Protestant church. There is such a push for familiarity that we miss out on the reverence for God that our souls desperately need. I have often thought of trying to find a high church protestant denomination, where God is revered and worshiped for the king He is instead of the nice guy we'd all like to sit around with having a cup of coffee.

 

This is likely to be incendiary, even though I did not mean for it to be so, it is just my pilgrimage. Flame away, I will not be able to go back to a church that doesn't make the Bible the bottom line. HOWEVER, having said all this, I am not so convinced that God cares as much about any of our delineations as He does about finding people who want to worship him in Spirit and in Truth. (John 4:21-23.) Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

 

God bless you on your journey.

Susan

 

 

I am afraid you, like many Catholics and non-Catholics alike, are misinformed and confused about several aspects of Church teaching.

 

First of all, on the ten commandments and idolotry. Idolatry is dealt with in the first and second commandments. These commandments deal with false idols, such as statues and other objects. However, this is not the only form of idolatry the commandments deal with. Coveting another persons possesions and/or spouse and relationship is forbidden because it can turn into another form of idolotry, one where romantic relationships and material possesions become more important to a person than God. Anytime we place something above God in importance, whether it be fame, money, popularity, etc. we are committing idolatry. The false worship of statues and other entities is not the whole picture here. What I am trying to say is that to covet is to commit a form of idolatry, that is part of the definition of the word. The word idolatry doesn't need to be explicitly mentioned when speaking about this commandment as it is already implied within the definition of the word covet.

 

The "Sacrifice of the Mass" does not contradict or overshadow the "final sacrifice" spoken of in Hebrews, according to Catholic teaching and the teaching of the early Church fathers they are one in the same. According to Catholic theology it is the exact same sacrifice, which through God's grace we are able to experience over and over again at mass. This is a miracle provided by God, the re-creation of this sacrifice for his people so they can be constantly renewed by this sacrifice and their faith made strong by it. The theology of the Eucharist, therefore, does not allow for idolatry. If you are a faithful Catholic, you believe that the Eucharist is NOT Jesus in the "form of bread" as you put it. The Eucharist is Jesus, it is the physical body of Christ which only has the appearance of bread. Therefore in adoration you are worshipping the physical presence of God, not an object. You can disagree with this belief if you like, but please don't accuse those who do believe in the real presence of Christ of idolatry. After all, the apostles all the way to Martin Luther himself held this belief.

 

As far as Tradition vs. Scripture, this is not a conflict or a competition at all, as you can not have one without the other. The Tradition of the church is grounded in scripture, and the Scripture of the church was formed by Tradition. The books that were eventually formalized in the Canon were chosen because they supported the Traditional teachings of the church and had been handed down to several generations of Christians through Tradition. Therefore, the church does not place one above the other, this is what Martin Luther did when he placed Scripture above all else, including the Tradition that shaped Scripture into what it is today.

 

Dr. Scott Hahn, a former protestant minister, has several fascinating books explaining the link between Church Tradition and dogma and scripture. He can explain Catholic doctrine much better than I can. Whether you are Catholic or Protestant, his work is very fascinating as it includes much information about the history of Christianity as well as the Old and New Testament, and comes from a scriptural point of view as he was a Bibilical scholar for years before his conversion. If nothing else, it can be read as a way to get a clear view of what Catholics believe and why, and what the scriptural basis is for those beliefs. As a cradle Catholic, I have learned more by reading his books and listening to his lectures than I ever have from a catechism class or from speaking to a priest. This fact is sad but true, there is a major deficit in the education of Catholics on matters of the faith, especially in the area of Holy Scripure. Even if you are not a Catholic, learning about our shared history (as in the first 1400 years of the Catholic church) is important for all Christians.

 

Here is Scott Hahn's book on the doctrines concerning the virgin Mary from a biblical point of view on google books, you can also read reviews on Amazon:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=bP44JfB4evIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=mary's+perpetual+virginity+Scott+hahn&source=bl&ots=FFvbz43u7A&sig=aIUVumneeLCcPHCCBab_VThH0Ek&hl=en&ei=hcUbTL67McWAlAfym_HvCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Edited June 18, 2010 by MyFourSons

[Caitilin]

It kind of depends on which bible, and who originally wrote and translated it. ;)

 

 

a

 

:iagree:

Asta,

 

I always enjoy your posts on theological topics. :)

[Teachin'Mine]

I can't help out with what you're looking for, but I am praying for you as you discern. :)

[cathmom]

25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

25 "Till she brought forth her firstborn son"... From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2.

 

 

from http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47001.htm

[ktgrok]

The ability to decide on a priest, rather than having one sent, was key for me because the diocese I'm from had a SERIES of pedophile priests sent to us. Not one, but a series. One would get kicked out and they would send us another one!! I think it's because we were in south florida, and they powers that be thought that a city of mostly old people would be safe for a pedophile...but that's just my own hypothesis. My BIL was propositioned by one of them.

[ktgrok]

I should add that my problems with the R.C. probably wouldn't have driven me away, but my husband is more comfortable in an Episcopal church, and both our families are Episcopalian, and I grew up in the Episcopalian faith, so it just works better for our family.

 

Also, I really prefer the Orthodox relationship view of things rather than the law and order view of the Roman church...but I'm not willing to sit/stand though the LONG orthodox service. Does that make me a bad person?

[Hannah C.]

As far as I know, the "official" Catholic Ten Commandments DO include all the same commandments as the Protestant ones. They are just in a different order because they are based on two different quotations in the Bible. The chart here shows the two different Scripture passages and the Catholic commandments. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/command.htm

 

One of the interesting things I've noted about Catholicism is there is actually a lot of variety in what individuals, or even priests, will say is okay. They are all well-intentioned, yet they can disagree. Protestants also have many differences, but they split when they disagree..Catholics stay under the same umbrella. The only place to find *official* Church beliefs is really the Catechism or papal encyclicals. Books with imprimaturs (the Church's stamp that nothing in it goes *against* official doctrine) can disagree on things!

[Tiramisu]

He left a lot of stones unturned. I kept thinking as I was reading, wow, too bad you weren't Lutheran or you wouldn't say this about the Eucharist. Wow, you can't seriously understand the Marian devotion as completely contrary to Protestantism if you're Lutheran. Wow, you have no idea what this passage says in context.

 

I think that he's clearly very sincere, but I found that his use of the Bible was very much a proof text version and quite significantly distorted in places.

 

It was interesting stuff, but he doesn't really understand historic Lutheran or, for that matter, Episcopalian teachings.

 

I don't know if any stones were left unturned in that particular book you're referencing. In the time before his conversion, though, Hahn thoroughly studied and searched Scripture, the Church Fathers, and Tradition. From what I remember, he wasn't particularly Catholic-friendly when he started out. It must have been agonizing, and I don't think he would have carried out his search for truth by reading passages out of context and distorting them.

Edited June 18, 2010 by NJKelli
clarity

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't know if any stones were left unturned in that particular book you're referencing. In the time before his conversion, though, Hahn thoroughly studied and searched Scripture, the Church Fathers, and Tradition. From what I remember, he wasn't particularly Catholic-friendly when he started out. It must have been agonizing, and I don't think he would have carried out his search for truth by reading passages out of context and distorting them.

 

I have read at least 5 of his books and transcripts of a number of his tapes. Indeed he was not particularly Catholic-friendly when he started out, but in addition he was not nearly as knowledgable about the range of non-Roman Catholic theology as he thought he was or as he presents himself to be in his books. Regarding his use of Bible passages, I know that he used them as out of context proof texts at times because I looked them up myself and read passages before and after then as well as other Gospels' stories of the same passage--basic stuff that I would expect from a pastor. I don't know Biblical languages or I would have also looked them up in Greek or Hebrew--more basic stuff that a pastor should be able to do but I cannot.

[Carol in Cal.]

"Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant" by Jackson would be a good comparative book for you to take a look at.

 

"A Summary of Christian Doctine" by Koehler is thorough and scholarly and conservative Lutheran. I recommend it but with the reservation that it's pretty dense and that looking up the many, many Biblical references makes it even long. If you want scholarly but not a lot of references in Biblical languages, this is exactly right.

 

I recommend both of these very, very highly.

 

Neither is polemical or overblown.

[Tiramisu]

I have read at least 5 of his books and transcripts of a number of his tapes. Indeed he was not particularly Catholic-friendly when he started out, but in addition he was not nearly as knowledgable about the range of non-Roman Catholic theology as he thought he was or as he presents himself to be in his books. Regarding his use of Bible passages, I know that he used them as out of context proof texts at times because I looked them up myself and read passages before and after then as well as other Gospels' stories of the same passage--basic stuff that I would expect from a pastor. I don't know Biblical languages or I would have also looked them up in Greek or Hebrew--more basic stuff that a pastor should be able to do but I cannot.

 

Your post was titled "You're mistaken," but I don't know what I'm mistaken about.:001_huh:

[Susan in KY]

Once you get some answers on this from a catechism source (ie,Vatican Council, Westminster Confession, etc), go to the original source of all Christian beliefs, the Bible. Read through, the New Testament in particular, and see how what the Word says compares to each of the doctrinal positions (Catholic vs Protestant). Take your time, there's not really a reason to make a knee-jerk decision about this, as long as you are actively and prayerfully seeking the truth.

 

:iagree: That's the heart of it.

 

Brevity is always best, AuntieM, I should've remembered that. :001_smile:

[Faithr]

Carol,

 

Which books by Hahn have you read that you found this egregious misuse of scriptural texts? I am just curious because I've read several of his books and I'd really like to know how Hahn is misleading in his citation of scripture. I do think Hahn is coming more from an evangelical/Baptist/Presbyterian point of view. I personally don't know myself much about the different denominational takes on the Bible. There are so many of them! But still I have always thought Hahn has integrity and you seem to be implying that he is slipshod in his theology. Also, are you implying that Hahn does not know Biblical languages? I believe he does read both Hebrew and Biblical Greek.

 

I've always enjoyed Hahn and when I read his books (or listen to lectures) I always feel greatly edified, so I am very curious to know how misleading others see him to be.

[chiguirre]

Hopscotch, have you been going to a Catholic church? Theology aside, there is a very different feel than you find in a conservative, evangelical church. Do you feel comfortable with the liturgy and with the different (and usually much smaller) focus on fellowship? Will it bother you that there is a huge variety of political and religious views among Catholics? Even on this board there are some Catholics who are very politically conservative and some who are quite liberal? Both Antonin Scalia and Nancy Pelosi are Catholic (although both of them hold political positions that do not accord with Catholic theology). Although theology is important, these cultural aspects will make or break your happiness with Catholicism.

[milovany]

Did you try attending a Sunday service?

 

Oh, yes! As you can see from my first post in this thread, the mission has become a bit bigger and is a vibrant, active community. We loved that Saturday night service as we were first seeking -- we loved that they would have done the service whether we or the other lady had shown up or not. We loved that church wasn't dependent upon us, it just is and we enter into it. We were baptized Eastern Orthodox earlier this year. :)

Edited June 18, 2010 by milovaný