Ps teacher just told me something really sad.

[Happy2BaMom]

That has *always* been the teacher's job. Previous generations have done it far better than this one. I am sick, sick, sick of teachers abdicating responsibility for this.

 

The difference is that teachers used to be able to teach things that were developmentally appropriate. And the vast majority of kids they taught had functional homes and weren't showing up hungry, unable to speak English, watching 7 hours of TV a day and shuffling to various parental dates, homes, and partners.

 

Teachers used to be able to determine what to teach when in the classroom. Now the politicians do, with the school boards and administrators following suit. It's not fair to place 100% of the blame on the teacher when they are at the bottom of the system and not the top.

 

As for OP, I understand what she was thinking, but it is rather snarky to say "people like you". You can send the same message without the nastiness to say "to keep my children from a system that requires things like that". No, the teacher was not appropriate. But why add to the nastiness?

[Saille]

The difference is that teachers used to be able to teach things that were developmentally appropriate. And the vast majority of kids they taught had functional homes and weren't showing up hungry, unable to speak English, watching 7 hours of TV a day and shuffling to various parental dates, homes, and partners.

 

Minus the TV, I'm betting loads and loads of immigrant children, Dust Bowl children, etc. were showing up just like this. We've had tenements and gangs for a long time, too.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

This conversation just got more interesting.

 

:lurk5:

[Saille]

It's not fair to place 100% of the blame on the teacher when they are at the bottom of the system and not the top.

 

I see what you're saying, but that's not really what I'm doing. All I'm saying is that, if "at the bottom of the system" is where you choose to be, you should at least do the best job you can.

 

It's not easy. We watch The Office and laugh when people are irresponsible, or phoning it in, and that's all a lot of mediocre teachers are doing...they're just punching the clock, like any number of normal American workers with random jobs. But they aren't responsible for selling paper, they're responsible for lighting a fire within our kids. And pedestrian whiners who can't resist shifting responsibility in even a casual conversation may not be worth defending.

 

ETA that I have to be fair, and cop to the fact that being at the bottom of the system is partly why I got out. I couldn't change policy from where I was in time to save my kids, and I wasn't about to watch them work their way into academic apathy down the hall when I could just teach them myself. OTOH, knowing what I know now, I'll be a good bit more daring in the event that I go back to ps when my kids are grown.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Saille

[junepep]

The difference is that teachers used to be able to teach things that were developmentally appropriate. And the vast majority of kids they taught had functional homes and weren't showing up hungry, unable to speak English, watching 7 hours of TV a day and shuffling to various parental dates, homes, and partners.

 

Teachers used to be able to determine what to teach when in the classroom. Now the politicians do, with the school boards and administrators following suit. It's not fair to place 100% of the blame on the teacher when they are at the bottom of the system and not the top.

 

As for OP, I understand what she was thinking, but it is rather snarky to say "people like you". You can send the same message without the nastiness to say "to keep my children from a system that requires things like that". No, the teacher was not appropriate. But why add to the nastiness?

 

I completely disagree with your categorization of the vast majority of families in this country. Even in the worst cities in the country there are loving concerned parents and due to the amount of immigrants that we've had to this country from non-english speaking countries (as a percentage of the total population) throughout it's history I'd say that 'not speaking perfect english' has been a pretty common factor for teachers to work through.

 

Also, if you'd read the OP's posts on page three and on the last page you would have noticed that she was dealing with a woman who frankly was one of "those" teachers. One of the ones that other teachers talk about in terms of wishing that person didn't teach.

 

I have enormous respect for most teachers, but to say that all teachers deserve our respect is nonsense. I don't respect people who abuse their position or authority - period.

[Orthodox6]

The jumping-off-point is that none of us were there except for the OP. We respondents have bifurcated into two basic groups. One group agrees with OP that the teacher speaking to her was arrogant. The other group, in contrast, suspects that the teacher was frustrated by the nonsensical situation in her school system, and was venting to another woman.

 

Also, if you'd read the OP's posts on page three and on the last page you would have noticed that she was dealing with a woman who frankly was one of "those" teachers. One of the ones that other teachers talk about in terms of wishing that person didn't teach.

 

[chiguirre]

The difference is that teachers used to be able to teach things that were developmentally appropriate. And the vast majority of kids they taught had functional homes and weren't showing up hungry, unable to speak English, watching 7 hours of TV a day and shuffling to various parental dates, homes, and partners.

 

 

Hmm, my grandmother only spoke Polish until she went to school, frequently went hungry, had an awful stepmother after her own mother died of malnutrition and pneumonia, and had to drop out when she was 12 to go to work. She was born in 1916, so she went to school in the 1920s. The vast majority of her classmates were in the same condition since they were all children of immigrant, illiterate coalminers.

 

She did learn to speak English, read a newspaper, have decent handwriting and spelling, and do enough arithmetic to balance a checkbook.

[LibraryLover]

Minus the TV, I'm betting loads and loads of immigrant children, Dust Bowl children, etc. were showing up just like this. We've had tenements and gangs for a long time, too.

 

 

Now, now, don't go injecting history and logic into a discussion! That is most always going to be a problemo.

[Catherine]

OK, I've heard much said about teachers here but "all too often put on a pedestal" is hardly one of them!! In fact I can't think of any place where teachers are "put on a pedestal".

[Saille]

OK, I've heard much said about teachers here but "all too often put on a pedestal" is hardly one of them!! In fact I can't think of any place where teachers are "put on a pedestal".

 

Really? I find it so common. Just as some folks are loathe to question doctors, and others to question priests, many people are hesitant to question teachers, or to trust their own judgement. And there's always plenty of talk in the media about how teaching is such a special(ized) profession, and how teachers are underpaid. There's an entire industry devoted to teacher thank-you gifts, teacher swag, etc..

 

We just congregate in a very enlightened community here, where we recognize that teachers are people...since we are, after all, only people ourselves. :tongue_smilie:

[5LittleMonkeys]

You know what is amazing to me? The state of our nations public education is going down the toilet. I bring to light yet another bad idea being implemented at the detriment of the children that are going to run our country someday and yet some seem to be upset and focusing on the fact that I had an emotional moment and said something rude to a bad teacher. :confused:

[dtb1999]

The parents of the chidlren going to public school seldom asked about tutoring -

 

If it were possible for my eyeballs to do a complete 360 degree turn in their sockets, the above quoted gem would have done it for sure. Wow. Just, wow.

[Rhonda in TX]

When I went to kindergarten many long years ago, there were no play stations. We did phonics and math and writing. We played blocks and trains and such at home. Parents actually bought imaginative toys for their own dc or let them run around and make up their own games (instead of TV.)

 

I'm not sure when you were in K, but we had play stations. I remember a kitchen for sure. When we came into class, we had a card that showed us what station we should go to. I remember I always wanted to go to finger painting, but "never" got to do that one.

 

I remember doing these worksheets with a man at one end and a tree at the other with a path in between. You had to draw a line in the path, staying in the lines. I remember one girl who could read a little bit and being very impressed with that. I don't remember a lot of academics in K.

[PentecostalMom]

My sister teaches VPK in Florida and they, too, have just "upgraded" their standards to teach them what used to be taught in K. I was dumbfounded when she told me about it. I did ask her for a list of what is required and she is sending it to me. Part of what she told me corresponds with the material in, "What Youe Kindergartender Needs to Know."

 

I am so thankful I can keep my babies at home!

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Kindergarten and remedial should never be in the same sentence.

 

Do they never think what this is doing to the children? The long-term implications it will have? :crying:

 

 

:iagree: I am speechless

[Orthodox6]

OK, I've heard much said about teachers here but "all too often put on a pedestal" is hardly one of them!! In fact I can't think of any place where teachers are "put on a pedestal".

 

Of course you can. Think of any NEA convention ! (Don't you remember the friendly folks who want to eradicate homeschooling ?)

[Rosie_0801]

OK, I've heard much said about teachers here but "all too often put on a pedestal" is hardly one of them!! In fact I can't think of any place where teachers are "put on a pedestal".

 

I hear rather more of how teachers should work harder so kids won't fail. People still think school holidays are actually holidays for all teachers, when most I've known work virtually all year round. I'd really like to know how many hours a day and how many weeks of the year the average person who complains about lazy teachers wants them to work. If their answer was less than the teachers I know work, I bet they still wouldn't change their opinions.

 

Rosie

[Jean in Newcastle]

You know what is amazing to me? The state of our nations public education is going down the toilet. I bring to light yet another bad idea being implemented at the detriment of the children that are going to run our country someday and yet some seem to be upset and focusing on the fact that I had an emotional moment and said something rude to a bad teacher. :confused:

 

You could have posted a thread specifically on the state of our nation's public education. You instead chose to post a thread on a specific conversation you had. Trust me, we would never have known the difference.

[Guest janainaz]

I'm not getting how you took what she shared personally? Did I miss something? Didn't she say that she was not going to enjoy teaching school as much because of the forced changes?

 

I have a family member who has taught second grade for twenty years and she told me that she is miserable in her career. She lives in CA and she said that her students are very behind. Many do not speak english and the parents just don't care about what their kids are learning, or if they are learning at all.

 

I certainly don't agree with most school systems or their agendas, but I also think it would be very difficult to be a teacher these days. I don't know how they do it. I know I couldn't.

[myfunnybunch]

You know what is amazing to me? The state of our nations public education is going down the toilet. I bring to light yet another bad idea being implemented at the detriment of the children that are going to run our country someday and yet some seem to be upset and focusing on the fact that I had an emotional moment and said something rude to a bad teacher. :confused:

 

Much of this conversation has moved on to the topic of kindergarten education and whether it's developmentally appropriate for kindergartener-aged children. The topic of your personal reaction has mostly been dropped. It would be interesting to discuss your opinions on the state of public education, particularly as it pertains to the issues the teacher discussed with you.

 

:)

 

Cat

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I think what is really sad about the whole system is that they push the littles in the beginning and let the older children to die on the vine later.

 

 

Lara

 

:iagree:

[LizzyBee]

I'm not getting how you took what she shared personally? Did I miss something? Didn't she say that she was not going to enjoy teaching school as much because of the forced changes?

 

 

 

I'm not the OP, but the teacher the OP spoke with said that most K'ers who don't know how to count to 100, etc. are just lazy or have parents who don't care enough about them. I probably would not have said what the OP said, but I sure as heck would have thought it. My middle dd's kindergarten teacher thought she was lazy, and told me as much on two different occasions, so that kind of bs is totally personal for me. I *did* remove my kids from ps to get them away from teachers like that.

[angela in ohio]

Whatever child a teacher gets, teaching that child is the teacher's job. Not moaning and whining about the child they'd like to have. They're not supposed to throw them back, or throw up their hands. But they do. Routinely. And there is a culture within schools that supports these actions.

 

Absolutely, 100% true! The 'this kid isn't easy to teach, send him somewhere else' mentality is so sad.

 

Teachers used to be able to determine what to teach when in the classroom. Now the politicians do, with the school boards and administrators following suit. It's not fair to place 100% of the blame on the teacher when they are at the bottom of the system and not the top.

 

The reason the government had to get involved at all is because the schools (the teachers) were not doing a good job. Generations of teaching the latest fad theory and the NEA's work to defend the worst of teachers had taken their toll.

 

Honestly, most teachers do have a lot of freedom in teaching. I was a little shocked by that when dh started teaching. "Good teachers whose hands are tied" is just a tiny fraction of the problem. The biggest problem is bad teachers who weren't taught to teach in teacher college. From the inside of ths system, you see that the teacher colleges and the teacher unions (NEA and state and local) are much bigger problems than anything else.

 

All I'm saying is that, if "at the bottom of the system" is where you choose to be, you should at least do the best job you can.

 

It's not easy. We watch The Office and laugh when people are irresponsible, or phoning it in, and that's all a lot of mediocre teachers are doing...they're just punching the clock, like any number of normal American workers with random jobs. But they aren't responsible for selling paper, they're responsible for lighting a fire within our kids. And pedestrian whiners who can't resist shifting responsibility in even a casual conversation may not be worth defending.

 

:iagree:

 

OK, I've heard much said about teachers here but "all too often put on a pedestal" is hardly one of them!! In fact I can't think of any place where teachers are "put on a pedestal".

 

I hear it every time someone says they can't homeschool because they don't think they could teach their dc.

 

I'm not sure when you were in K, but we had play stations. ...I don't remember a lot of academics in K.

 

I was in almost a decade later. We sat at tables and did school work for half a day, excluding the break when we had milk and then sang songs. We had a Phonics workbook that they had just been using for a year or so. Phonics has just come back into style (thankfully!) I was in a pull-out program once a week for academic enrichment. There were about half a dozen of us who did extra academic work, because we could already read through the readers the class was working on.

[LizzyBee]

You know it all honesty its amazing about how many people think its the teacher's job to do the teaching. In our area that is a theme that is constant.

Many years ago my friend's son was getting ready to start K(he's in 6th grade now) anyways she complained to me how she thought it was arrogant of the school to expect her to teach her son how to count, write his name, tie his shoes,, etc. That , that was the teacher's job that's why she was sending him to school. Of course she ended up having to hold him back a year because he was a young 5 to begin with, and the standards then were less demanding then they are now.

 

I think that is where the teacher's attitude about uncaring parents is coming from. Honestly its amazing how many parents feel this way. That's its not their job to teach their children. Plug that in with the new standards and how the vast majority of children enter Kindergarden not ever having been to preschool or having a parent who wants to take the time to teach their children what they need to know and I can see where the teacher's attitude is coming from.

 

It would be wonderful if every parent was caring and loving enough to teach their children the things they need to know before they enter a brick and mortar school. For the vast majority though those children who have those families are well, now homeschooling them. Then those on the other side of the fence are in brick and mortar school.

 

:confused::confused::confused: If teacher's aren't supposed to teach, what are they? Babysitters?

 

When I went to school, my county didn't even have kindergarten. When we started 1st grade, we practiced counting and learned the alphabet. We didn't have homework in 1st grade, but when we started having homework, our parents didn't help us with it unless we got stuck. (It was not because they didn't care. My parents cared very much about our education.) But things were ratcheted up and quite rigorous by jr. high and high school, including old-fashioned grammar instruction similar to R&S and writing across the curriculum. I had all the skills I needed to be a straight-A student in college.

 

Sadly, when my kids went to ps kindergarten, there was no time for resting in the afternoon because they had too much to do. Studies are now beginning to show that many children are falling behind in academics, not because they don't have enough academic instruction, but because they don't have enough imaginative play. That is so, so sad.

Edited May 22, 2010 by LizzyBee

[KrissiK]

Honestly, most teachers do have a lot of freedom in teaching. I was a little shocked by that when dh started teaching. "Good teachers whose hands are tied" is just a tiny fraction of the problem.

 

Not around here anymore. The teacher's lessons are scripted and the principal has to be able to go from classroom to classroom within a grade level and each class has to be pretty much on the same page.

[CLHCO]

The reason the government had to get involved at all is because the schools (the teachers) were not doing a good job. Generations of teaching the latest fad theory and the NEA's work to defend the worst of teachers had taken their toll.

 

 

I get what you're trying to convey, especially about the NEA, but having read John Taylor Gatto and other sources, and I think the system was quite deliberately mucked with from many levels, including those lobbying in the government for the whims of the social managers. Much was lost due to social management experimenting over the last century, including the character of children, and the teachers they grew into. The whole Prussian system we are based on is social management and was deliberately contrived.

 

I'm not talking just federal, though they wield a lot of weight from fear of "losing federal funding". (Ask a kid with a Jolly Rancher.) State government mucky-muckers have some very strong control on content in many states, some (thankfully not all) school boards are out of control. The more the area has "at risk" kids, the more it's messed with too, causing a downward spiral. Many are lock-step with the NEA and have been for some time. The worst of it is usually in the elementary schools. It seems there is sometimes more freedom in high school, but only if you have children who are not suffering a million learning problems or a hatred of school from the elementary standards.

[angela in ohio]

Not around here anymore. The teacher's lessons are scripted and the principal has to be able to go from classroom to classroom within a grade level and each class has to be pretty much on the same page.

 

Good! Scripted lessons have been proven effective, but teacher's unions fight them.

 

Here, there is an uproar because the principal is not allowed in the classrooms without the teacher's permission. :confused:

[Cricket]

There is a woman in our church who teaches all day K. The children are kept busy every single moment of the day, they don't even have a "rest" time. I asked her if the kids get tired. She says some of them are nodding off in their seats by the end of the day.

 

I know at least one of my boys would have been in trouble all the time if he had to be in an environment like that.

 

We have required rest time around here! The older ones get to read but most of the time they fall asleep too. Poor little kids!

[momof2girls]

I can't believe this. :confused:

[Alphabetika]

Not around here anymore. The teacher's lessons are scripted and the principal has to be able to go from classroom to classroom within a grade level and each class has to be pretty much on the same page.

:iagree:This is exactly what my mom (who was a teacher in the 50s and 60s) encountered as a teacher's aide in the 90s. The first grade teacher she worked for finally quit over it - too much pressure on her with no freedom to be creative, plus witnessing too many kids (especially boys) break down repeatedly with stress.

[Orthodox6]

Not around here anymore. The teacher's lessons are scripted and the principal has to be able to go from classroom to classroom within a grade level and each class has to be pretty much on the same page.

 

Absurd ! Better rename that program "Every Child Left Behind", since students do not learn at the same speed.

[Jenny in GA]

 

I hear it every time someone says they can't homeschool because they don't think they could teach their dc.

 

 

 

 

Personally, I don't think this comment is due to people "putting teachers on a pedestal" or thinking teachers are amazingly smart or something.

 

That comment seems to usually be followed with "my daughter and I butt heads!" or "we would drive each other crazy."

 

I have actually heard several school teachers say they "wouldn't have the patience" or "couldn't" homeschool their own kids. And I have heard professional piano teachers say that they hired some one else to give their own child lessons. As one music teacher told me, "I tried giving lessons to my own son," and it was just a disaster."

 

Jenny

[Lara in Colo]

I couldn't learn anything from my mother. To this day I hate to bowl and still have the scars from learning to ride the bike. She wasn't patient enough to teach or even patient enough to learn to be patient.

 

Lara

[Renee in NC]

I'm not sure when you were in K, but we had play stations. I remember a kitchen for sure. When we came into class, we had a card that showed us what station we should go to. I remember I always wanted to go to finger painting, but "never" got to do that one.

 

I remember doing these worksheets with a man at one end and a tree at the other with a path in between. You had to draw a line in the path, staying in the lines. I remember one girl who could read a little bit and being very impressed with that. I don't remember a lot of academics in K.

 

I was in K in 1981-1982. We had plenty of play stations and spent almost all day on those. During play time, we had "groups" where more academic skills were taught based on the needs of the child (there were 4 groups.) I was in the "blue" group and spent my group time learning basic phonics (except I could already read, so it didn't matter.) We had nap time everyday after lunch (this was full day K.)

[Nicole M]

Absurd ! Better rename that program "Every Child Left Behind", since students do not learn at the same speed.

 

Uh huh. I heard a woman speak at an achievement gap summit, and she said the program ought to be called "No Teacher Left Standing," which I think would also be accurate.

[Dmmetler]

Most music teachers I know do have someone else teach their child for three reasons.

 

1) While it works well when the kids are little, when they get to the tween years, it can get tough. Usually by then the kids are getting to the point where it's not the big, glaring mistakes that are getting them, but the little, technical, interpretive things-and if you have a kid who is in the stage where they feel that they know it all, this can lead to some real friction. And it's tough to be as dispassionate with your own child as you can with someone else's when the kid is adamantly insisting that you know nothing. It's easier in academic areas where you can look up a right answer when the child insists that you're wrong.

 

I'm doing a kid-swap for piano with a colleague of mine specifically because her DD (at 10) is entering this stage, and we've discovered that her DD will accept the same statement from me much easier than she does from her mom. Meanwhile, my DD is more than willing to go into a different room and show off for the other teacher, even though she's still getting as much or more actual instruction from me (she averages about 4 piano lessons a week-each about 10 minutes long)

 

2) Some schools of music rely on the triangle of parent-teacher-student in the early years, and if parent/teacher is the same person, it can be difficult to make that dynamic work. Suzuki is the prime example here-and unless someone is the only Suzuki trained teacher in their area, usually a teacher will choose to send their child to someone else so they can be the parent.

 

and

 

3) If you're a professional music teacher, it's pretty common to take professional colleague's kids gratis, and in return for them to take yours, so there's really no financial reason NOT to have someone else teach your child. And that way you get to sit in the audience, beam, take pictures, and clap at the recital instead of missing it because you're trying to keep the whole show running on schedule and are dealing with the terrified kid who just burst into tears backstage.

[lovemyboys]

That has *always* been the teacher's job. Previous generations have done it far better than this one. I am sick, sick, sick of teachers abdicating responsibility for this. I had little students, five and six and seven year old children whose parents' custodial rights had been *terminated*, the abuse was so bad. And you know what most of those kids had in common? They all thought they were stupid. To a child, they believed they were bad. Not at home. In school. In class. Their cries for help, which had taken the age-appropriate form of acting out, had not initially attracted their teachers' attention to the abuse. It had caused the teachers to villainize the children, because all those teachers could see was the obstacle those children presented on the way to the goal of the happy little classroom in their imaginations. These people had training in child development. They should have been able to look past their own wants and identify a problem before they did more damage to the children. Heaven help the ones who weren't brave enough to yell for help at the tops of their little lungs. Every day in this country, we label children based on the criterion: "Inappropriate behavior or emotions under otherwise normal circumstances", as if school itself is a bubble, and *always* represents normal circumstances. As if a child from a disrupted home can be expected to come to school and behave normally. As if we have the right to expect that, and as if it is *the children* who need behavioral remediation, when in fact they are doing the only thing that makes any sense.

 

Whatever child a teacher gets, teaching that child is the teacher's job. Not moaning and whining about the child they'd like to have. They're not supposed to throw them back, or throw up their hands. But they do. Routinely. And there is a culture within schools that supports these actions.

 

We can get as angry at egregiously irresponsible parents as we like, but in truth there aren't that many of them in any one class...just normal parents who don't think they should have to be a test prep coach for their four-year-olds. The egregiously bad parents...yeah, that's a tough row to hoe. But someone who's feeding the "poor me" party line to a total stranger at Girl Scouts is using those parents as an excuse to fail the children. And that makes me angry.

 

Well said, Saille. As one who has been *in the system,* you certainly have a perspective and an authority to share that many of us don't.

 

OP's post struck me in a similar way .... there was a fait accompli attitude like it was out of this (or any) teacher's hands.

 

And as the parent of a male child who wouldn't have been on the journal writing, spelling, reading track in kindergarten, I would've been quite frustrated for ds to be in some of the classes mentioned here. This is a bright creative child -- he just didn't read well at 5 or 6.

 

Thanks for the post, Saille.

[lovemyboys]

The difference is that teachers used to be able to teach things that were developmentally appropriate. And the vast majority of kids they taught had functional homes and weren't showing up hungry, unable to speak English, watching 7 hours of TV a day and shuffling to various parental dates, homes, and partners.

 

Teachers used to be able to determine what to teach when in the classroom. Now the politicians do, with the school boards and administrators following suit. It's not fair to place 100% of the blame on the teacher when they are at the bottom of the system and not the top.

 

 

 

I certainly agree that the pace and expectations were more developmentally appropriate decades ago. And that's a shame.

 

The system has also injected a great deal of marginal topics and projects that take away from dedicated teaching time to the detriment of the kids. Decades ago, some schools separated children by abilities so that the teacher could work with his/her students at the speed and depth they were capable of. Now with mainstreaming and other social engineering, those distinctions are next to impossible.

 

But I really doubt your assertion that kids of yesteryear were some kind of homogenously well-dressed, well-cared-for, "leave it to beaver" population. Just in the microcosm of my small town gradeschool, there was poverty, abuse, divorce, unemployment, hardship and ignorance.

 

And earlier in the 1900s, the immigrant populations would have presented a number of kids with little English skills, etc. Late 1800s would've had a number of kids with family obligations, work requirements to help the family, low expectations for much formal education, etc.

 

My .02

[tricia]

Good for you for being quick on your feet. Yet another reason to homeschool.

[bairnmama]

I haven't read all the replies yet, but my dd was in a K very similar to the one mentioned by the OP. They did have a couple of play centers, but dd could never go to them because she was slow in doing her work and was kept in her seat until it was done. She was sent home every day with homework that took her almost 2 hrs (after being in class from before 7:30 till after 2 with no rest period) and notes from the teacher saying she needed to learn her letters and numbers. She was miserable and complained of stomach aches EVERY morning! I pulled her out after a few months, but the damage was done. Even now she gets moved to tears and shuts down saying it's too hard when I pull out anything "schoolish". I've had to find very creative ways to teach her.