Another (adopted) child dead due to parents using Pearl methods..........

[keptwoman]

Joanne do you really mean "ANOTHER" as in more than one child has died from parents following these vile peoples advice???

Surely the Pearls are culpable and should be charged.

[Lovedtodeath]

Joanne do you really mean "ANOTHER" as in more than one child has died from parents following these vile peoples advice???

Surely the Pearls are culpable and should be charged.

In the USA one can write whatever one wants (including how to manufacture illegal drugs and bombs) and not be charged with anything.

 

I won't comment beyond that.

[at the beach]

:crying:

 

I am so so heartbroken for what these children had to go through. I am heartsick over what these parents did, what they were capable of.

 

I cannot even imagine hurting a child like that. And I do think that yes, if they were frustrated or irritated or whatever, that they very well could have beat her for exactly what the article said, that she was mispronouncing a word in Frog and Toad.

 

I know the feeling of aggravation and irritation with children. What parent doesn't? But to hurt a helpless child, I cannot imagine.

 

I am a former LLL Leader. Through LLL, I learned how important it is to parent with a tender heart, which is so often lacking in our world when dealing with children.

 

In my line of work, I have seen children come to harm when placed in adoptive homes through foreign adoption and through local adoption when the agency was a private agency. I am not saying that children adopted through foster care are always safe. I think when you adopt through the state, you have more support and preparation. I do not know if there is sufficient preparation to deal with high needs kids when adopting internationally or locally through private agencies. I don't think many parents are equipped to deal with these kids and have insufficient support. However, that's certainly no excuse.

 

These people aren't parents, they are monsters who deserve a fitting punishment for their disgusting actions. May they get exactly what they deserve and then some.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Violet

[Parrothead]

Joanne do you really mean "ANOTHER" as in more than one child has died from parents following these vile peoples advice???

Surely the Pearls are culpable and should be charged.

I found this article from 2006.

 

 

Paddock -- a Johnston County mother accused of murdering Sean, her 4-year-old adopted son, and beating two other adopted children -- surfed the Internet, said her attorney, Michael Reece. She found literature by an evangelical minister and his wife who recommended using plumbing supply lines to spank misbehaving children.

 

Paddock ordered Michael and Debi Pearl's books and started spanking her adopted children as suggested. After Sean, the youngest of Paddock's six adopted children, died last month, his older sister and brother told investigators about Paddock's spankings.

 

Sean's 9-year-old brother was beaten so badly he limped, a prosecutor said. Bruises marred Sean's backside, too, doctors found.

Sean died after being wrapped so tightly in blankets he suffocated. That, too, was a form of punishment, Johnston County Sheriff Steve Bizzell said.

 

Edited February 15, 2010 by Parrothead

[LizzyBee]

This is the beginning of the 4th article JoAnne listed:

 

DA: Deadly Child Abuse Case Linked To "Biblical Chastisement"

Reported by: Owen Clark

Email: oclark@khsltv.com

Last Update: 2/12 5:27 pm

 

Print Story | ShareThis

 

Authorities now believe that murder suspects Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz were followers of a extremist Christian group that advocates hitting children.

 

"It's the old spare the rod, spoil the child type of proverb or whatever you want to call it, that would justify corporal punishment," said Butte County District Attorney Mike Ramsey.

 

After speaking with the Schatz' other children investigators were led to No Greater Joy Ministries, a Tennessee based faith group that espouses spanking as a necessary part of "training" one's child.

 

The Ministries' web site details how hard and on which part of the body a child should be hit. It also describes a 1/4 inch plumber's supply line as an ideal "spanking instrument".

 

The Schatz are accused of using that exact type of supply line to beat their two adopted children so severely that one died and the other remains in intensive care.

 

"They did espouses the philosophy that they were to use this particular 1/4 inch plumbing supply line for their discipline or as they call it biblical chastisement," said Ramsey.

 

Investigators say the Shatz practiced a similar form of corporal punishment on their six biological children and were training their oldest daughter in the proper way to deliver spankings.

 

 

And this is more of the same article:

 

Ramsey is quick to point out that followers of No Greater Joy do not advocate spanking to the point of serious injury.

 

"Even the Tennessee pastor that espouse hitting children right from infancy says that you must watch that you don't cross the line. Clearly this is a situation where the line was crossed from discipline... to beating... to murder," said Ramsey.

 

Don't get me wrong. I've tried reading some material by the Pearls and it makes my skin crawl. I can't stand them. But I don't think they're to blame for this tragedy or the similar one in NC. It is common sense that you don't beat a child for hours on end and it is abusive to do so. As someone else said, there are sick people who use the NGJ materials to justify their behavior, but that doesn't mean the Pearls would advocate these people's behavior.

 

These people aren't parents, they are monsters who deserve a fitting punishment for their disgusting actions. May they get exactly what they deserve and then some.

 

I completely agree.

Edited February 15, 2010 by LizzyBee

[Mejane]

If you truly feel strongly about this, please go here:

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/footer-menu/contact-us/general/ and tell the Pearls what you think of their parenting advice.

[Denisemomof4]

didn't read all the responses, only the first page, but what's sad is that the children likely DID have RAD or attachment issues, which means they also had trauma issues/PTSD. So while trying to beat their children into submission, they caused them to go into their "fight or flight mode" which paralyzed them from being CAPABLE of saying any word right. The fear brought them back to their trauma state which rendered them UNABLE to do what was asked.

[abreakfromlife]

 

Don't get me wrong. I've tried reading some material by the Pearls and it makes my skin crawl. I can't stand them. But I don't think they're to blame for this tragedy or the similar one in NC. It is common sense that you don't beat a child for hours on end and it is abusive to do so. As someone else said, there are sick people who use the NGJ materials to justify their behavior, but that doesn't mean the Pearls would advocate these people's behavior.

But if they say 'spank until the point of repentance' and no repentance comes, then logically, you'd keep spanking. If their books don't say 'spank x times and then stop' then they are advocating this behavior. I gave them the benefit of the doubt after I heard about the first death. But come on. Rewrite your material, or modify your approach if the logical end of your methods is serious abuse/death. But I don't think they have - I could be wrong, but I've never read anything that said otherwise. To continue promoting this type of behavior makes them at least somewhat culpable. Not to mention that all of this is based on a Proverb - a pithy piece of wisdom - not a set guaranteed rule for how life will turn out. It's just unbelievable to me that this and they are considered Christian. They are so far from Christ-like it isn't even funny.

[asta]

You know, if nothing else, why won't these people get OUT OF THE OLD TESTAMENT?

 

If someone wants to be "Christ-like", how about entering the NEW Testament? You know, where CHRIST existed? Perhaps fewer children et al would be beaten then.

 

 

a

[Donna T.]

If you truly feel strongly about this, please go here:

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/footer-menu/contact-us/general/ and tell the Pearls what you think of their parenting advice.

 

Oh, but then they just say you are possessed!! You see, if you criticize them, they say you are deranged, demented, and a persecutor of righteousness. It's a very effective way to curtail dialogue, that's for sure.

[Donna T.]

You know, if nothing else, why won't these people get OUT OF THE OLD TESTAMENT?

 

If someone wants to be "Christ-like", how about entering the NEW Testament? You know, where CHRIST existed? Perhaps fewer children et al would be beaten then.

 

 

a

 

Amen. Preach on. I suspect they hold to a false gospel but I can't confirm that completely because I just get so sick when I read their material. They do make some deal out of the "fact" (not really!) that the child is redeemed through the discipline. Well, that's false.

[abreakfromlife]

You know, if nothing else, why won't these people get OUT OF THE OLD TESTAMENT?

:iagree:

 

And you know, if normal ppl who use these methods are hoping to get repentance and a changed heart through beatings, it isn't going to work. They might get changed behavior, but it is because of fear. You cannot change a person's heart through violence or meanness. God's kindness leads to repentance.

 

I get the negative consequence aspect of parenting, and spanking might be a part of that. But the 'spanking unto repentance' is a very unbiblical way to get repentance.

[Denisemomof4]

I totally agree! Punishing a child for failure to read perfectly is an outrage all by itself, let alone physically punishing a child for hours. I feel sick. Those poor babies.

 

well, speaking as an adoptive mom, I can tell you that some things drive you crazy about your adopted children (not literally crazy) and my daughter intentionally screws up her papers and mispronounces things on purpose All The Time just to push buttons. So I can kind of understand this mother disciplining for THAT, if she knew that the child fully knew the work and was mispronouncing on purpose. It's hard to understand unless you've BTDT.

 

Just last week my a-daughter found it necessary to fill out her entire math and phonics papers wrong. I've learned not to let it affect me At All, I simply remove the privilege of homeschool classes, co-ops and playdates for the week when she does that, because it never happens in one sitting but will play out for several days. And I'm 100% positive that she KNOWS the work. There's NO question about that. I never give her input, but she gets no privileges back until all papers are done, and I add to the stack daily. She will eventually do it all and then we file everything away after it's correct and complete. KNOWING THIS I have clearly defined expectations, and she fully knows the consequences of her choosing not to comply. Time in room, no playdates, no homeschool co-op time. I'm doing this because we're getting further and further behind.

 

While I have spanked for this in the past on rare occasions, it accomplishes nothing so I don't "go there" anymore.

 

I have the sense to NEVER have my daughter read to me because I'm POSITIVE she'd purposely say everything wrong. She reads to dh or dd only, and the rule there is that I don't get to hear ANYTHING about how it went. I know she knows the words anyway. But I don't want to know A THING.

 

So this mother likely wasn't punishing the child for not doing a perfect job, but it was likely a long term problem. I've been dealing with it here and after the phonics are well grounded I plan to switch to a 100% run computer program just so I don't have to deal with the games.

 

Punishing a child for hours? I can't imagine. Ever.

[HRAAB]

It's been years and years since I read this material, but they advocate 'breaking the spirit'. Their son was spanked every day for a week ??? for telling a lie. I remember a story about a baby that way doing something (???) and repeatedly through an afternoon they spanked the child. This is in an effort to break the spirit. I'm not going to their site (makes me physically ill) to double check.

 

And when you link this to religion, salvation, heaven/hell, call it Godly, you're playing on a person's deepest emotions. Michael Pearl speaks with such authority and he uses Scripture to back up his statements. I think it's easy for well meaning parents to get sucked in. Then when it isn't working, they feel it's their fault. They're not consistent enough, they're not disciplining in exactly the way Pearl says you should. And on it goes.

[abreakfromlife]

 

They do make some deal out of the "fact" (not really!) that the child is redeemed through the discipline.

Oh man - how awesome is that?? How did God not see that one coming? Someone really needs to get that message to Jesus ASAP. Maybe he can rewind the last 2000 years and get himself off that cross!

[asta]

Oh man - how awesome is that?? How did God not see that one coming? Someone really needs to get that message to Jesus ASAP. Maybe he can rewind the last 2000 years and get himself off that cross!

 

I know we're not supposed to laugh on a thread like this...

[Cindy in C-ville]

Oh. My. Goodness. Horrified here, simply horrified. Praying for the rest of the children ...

[Cricket]

I'm sure the parents didn't discipline her for not being able to read. They probably did so because they felt the child was capable and was playing them. I was that child, btw. And once you dig in and claim you can't, you can't change your story. My own parents were patient, helpful, instructive. And then they turned to punishment (though spankers, not that and certainly not child abuse!).

 

Not that there is ANY excuse for abusing your child AT ALL and certainly not killing her! Just saying that none of us would punish a child for decoding sat for cat. But almost every parent would for lying, playing games, refusing to do their work, etc.

 

Some people really are that nuts. I personally know someone who was knocked around by his parents at the age of three for not being able to read. This same person's mother thought a baby spitting up was being defiant by refusing food. It's amazing some children survive that kind of upbringing and become normal people. :crying:

[abreakfromlife]

 

I know we're not supposed to laugh on a thread like this...

if you could only hear my nasty, sarcastic tone :tongue_smilie: distorted theology makes me so mad, especially when it ends up hurting and killing people. Instead of arguing about theological points that really don't matter either way, the church should take on destructive things like this.

[SonshineLearner]

I've read the Pearls' book and took pearls from it and left the rest. I think that to claim that someone else made you do it is crazy. I read their magazine and what I read is so.... "Charlotte Masonee".... It's gentle, kind and I just don't see anything even remotely close to this. I believe that parents who are prone to abuse... read a book that means to give your child a couple of swats... and freak on their children. I think they did improperly say a few things... and the things the said... and others took wrongly... have serious consequences. I do think it would be a good thing for some Christian leaders to ask them if they'd like to think about revising some of their advise. Overall, I think I would be considered a loving parent, and I believe they are loving as well. BUT, I think that the goal and method of what they are trying for... is lost when you can't use your common sense. I was homeschooled... I've seen a lot of advise... and I really think it boils down to logic... and using yours.

I feel VERY bad for the children... and know that this isn't what the Pearls would advocate....

 

Running to duck.....

[myfunnybunch]

I do think it would be a good thing for some Christian leaders to ask them if they'd like to think about revising some of their advise.

 

Do you think this would work, though? If the deaths of children at the hands of those following their advice, however mistakenly, doesn't lead them to revise their advice, it's doubtful they'll change it simply because they're asked.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Two things.

 

Number one, "all scriptures is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, reproving, setting things straight and disciplining in righteousness." It is mistaken to discount scripture because it's in the OT. At the same time, it is mistaken to take a handful of scripture and make doctrine from it also. There are SO many scriptures about disciplining, teaching, guiding, parenting so to take just a few will give you a WAY distorted view of God and discipline.

 

Second, I have read the Pearls. Unfortunately, they got enough right that people miss what they got so dreadfully wrong. I completely agree with A LOT of what they say. And I completely disagree with the means they choose to meet the ends. They miss so much of what scripture (including the OT) REALLY says about the matter.

 

I *was* the parent who looked at materials like theirs (not theirs). I had a tough little boy and went to a kind of church that suggested junk parenting. Living in Texas no doubt didn't help either (I have NEVER met a parent who has NEVER hit their kid). And I liked what I saw as "results" (the oldest children weren't THAT old) from my mentors. I wanted that for *my* family. Thankfully, when I got into a situation like that the family in this story had, I used my brain and heart to learn better rather than turning to abuse. But it was REALLY close. At first, I wondered if I had made a mistake. Thankfully, a VERY patient woman on a message board helped me see how I could still use all the right stuff and lose the trash (and what she considered abuse). I immediately beefed up the good stuff and the rest is history. That little boy is now 15yrs old and a wonderful young man. Thankfully, his spirit wasn't broken over these years! I'm glad I didn't ruin him because I have no doubt that even if I didn't cross into obviously abusive parenting, it would have been ruinous. TRULY tough kids usually need BETTER parenting, not harsher.

Edited February 15, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Mermaid Mama]

This makes me sick to my stomach! Why do people like this adopt children? I guess its a power thing. Don't the adoption agencies talk with the other children in the family first? This is just so so sad!!!:confused:

 

And why does ANYONE follow the advice of people whose own kids disowned them!!! (Or am I confusing them with the Ezzos? - Apologies in advance if I have!).

 

All I know is that riding crops belong in arenas! And even then - I could complain about that in certain instances!

[OnTheBrink]

And why does ANYONE follow the advice of people whose own kids disowned them!!! (Or am I confusing them with the Ezzos? - Apologies in advance if I have!).

 

All I know is that riding crops belong in arenas! And even then - I could complain about that in certain instances!

 

I think you're confusing them with someone else. From what little I've read of the Pearls, their children work alongside them in their "ministry".

[Denisemomof4]

This makes me sick to my stomach! Why do people like this adopt children? I guess its a power thing. Don't the adoption agencies talk with the other children in the family first? This is just so so sad!!!:confused:

 

I know as a part of our homestudy all of our kids were interviewed separately, by a social worker, behind closed doors. Maybe my dd was too young at the time (3) but I don't really remember now. She asked some very leading questions that confused my kids. They asked about spanking and such, I don't remember everything, but my kids were very uncomfortable and only my oldest could explain the way she was asking "suggestive" questions. It was weird. But I would think it common for bio kids to always be interviewed during the adoption process.

 

The only thing I was worried about was the fact that we were a homeschool family. I was a member of the HSLDA at the time and they put the fear of social workers into me.

 

I do remember the social worker asking me if our church instructed us on how to discipline our kids :001_huh: and as weird as it was at the time, I guess I can understand now.

 

I think it's sad how the parent's aren't equipped with knowledge to help these kids from their first days. It would be so beneficial, even life changing. this mother likely wasn't reading how to discipline an adopted kid, because it truly is different. Like I said in an earlier post, what the mother did rendered the child UNABLE to do right from the very first whip.

 

Plumbing tubing. Who would think of such a thing? And to spank babies and infants? I don't see how anyone in the world could do such a thing.

 

Teaching an older child how to spank a younger one? :001_huh:

[naturalmom]

thought I don't follow their guidelines. I know they have situations in which they recommend that the parents don't use physical discipline at all. One situation would be where the parent hasn't been building a relationship with the child (being interested and joining in what the child is interested in, etc.) and also if you can't maintain self-control.

 

I don't agree with with most of what the Pearls advocate, but I am pretty certain they would be as horrified as the rest of us at what happened to those children.

 

I'm just trying to clarify what they actually say about this sort of situation, not defending the rest of their methods!

[Aubrey]

Two things.

 

Number one, "all scriptures is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, reproving, setting things straight and disciplining in righteousness." It is mistaken to discount scripture because it's in the OT. At the same time, it is mistaken to take a handful of scripture and make doctrine from it also. There are SO many scriptures about disciplining, teaching, guiding, parenting so to take just a few will give you a WAY distorted view of God and discipline.

 

Second, I have read the Pearls. Unfortunately, they got enough right that people miss what they got so dreadfully wrong. I completely agree with A LOT of what they say. And I completely disagree with the means they choose to meet the ends. They miss so much of what scripture (including the OT) REALLY says about the matter.

 

I *was* the parent who looked at materials like theirs (not theirs). I had a tough little boy and went to a kind of church that suggested junk parenting. Living in Texas no doubt didn't help either (I have NEVER met a parent who has NEVER hit their kid). And I liked what I saw as "results" (the oldest children weren't THAT old) from my mentors. I wanted that for *my* family. Thankfully, when I got into a situation like that the family in this story had, I used my brain and heart to learn better rather than turning to abuse. But it was REALLY close. At first, I wondered if I had made a mistake. Thankfully, a VERY patient woman on a message board helped me see how I could still use all the right stuff and lose the trash (and what she considered abuse). I immediately beefed up the good stuff and the rest is history. That little boy is now 15yrs old and a wonderful young man. Thankfully, his spirit wasn't broken over these years! I'm glad I didn't ruin him because I have no doubt that even if I didn't cross into obviously abusive parenting, it would have been ruinous. TRULY tough kids usually need BETTER parenting, not harsher.

 

This is what I think is so important. While the end results can be so painfully similar, I believe that the heart of a misled parent is *very* different from the heart of an abuser. One needs training; the other needs therapy & handcuffs.

[Aubrey]

I've read the Pearls' book and took pearls from it and left the rest. I think that to claim that someone else made you do it is crazy. I read their magazine and what I read is so.... "Charlotte Masonee".... It's gentle, kind and I just don't see anything even remotely close to this. I believe that parents who are prone to abuse... read a book that means to give your child a couple of swats... and freak on their children. I think they did improperly say a few things... and the things the said... and others took wrongly... have serious consequences. I do think it would be a good thing for some Christian leaders to ask them if they'd like to think about revising some of their advise. Overall, I think I would be considered a loving parent, and I believe they are loving as well. BUT, I think that the goal and method of what they are trying for... is lost when you can't use your common sense. I was homeschooled... I've seen a lot of advise... and I really think it boils down to logic... and using yours.

I feel VERY bad for the children... and know that this isn't what the Pearls would advocate....

 

Running to duck.....

 

If they really are gentle, loving people but VERY. BAD. WRITERS., I agree--for the sake of children, parents, & the Christian testimony, their books/websites/etc. ALL need to be DRASTICALLY rewritten.

 

I have personally seen this happen countless times--people w/ good intentions CAN. NOT. get ideas across on paper.

 

The fact that they haven't been able to see how their books, etc. read (IF they haven't in ALL. THIS. TIME.) is one thing. The fact that publishers & editors couldn't see it is surprising/scary/strange/fill-in-the-blank.

 

Also...I've wondered if it wouldn't be hard to give their books a rewrite in light of the deaths & accusations. Would it look like accepting blame/guilt? Because I could totally see not wanting to go to PRISON.

 

All of that aside, I have been thinking about the Pearls & their problem books for several yrs, since they fall under the wide brim of conservative Christianity alongside me, & I have thought about offering to rewrite their books for them. Not that I'm anybody--I don't know why in the world they'd say yes, but I'd sure like to help fix the problem before anyone else is hurt.

 

It wouldn't be recognizably the same book, though, so I'm thinking there are some heavy odds against me. On the one hand. On the other hand, if their magazines are truly, sincerely gentle, then I guess there's a chance.

 

I'm not really this optimistic irl. I don't know what it is about the boards that makes me come off like Pollyanna. I promise I'm an old crank who *never* gives people the benefit of the doubt. ;)

[Cindy in C-ville]

Obviously, this horrible situation strikes a chord with so many of us. For me, a mom of seven, our youngest just home from Ukraine in November, it really strikes a chord. While I understand frustration, there is frustration with parenting ANY child - adopted or birthed into your family. Some kids know how to push your buttons more than others - adopted or birthed into your family. With kids who are adopted, there are also specific issued related to that adoption - RAD being one of them. I wonder if these parents read ANY books specifically related to parenting hurt children. Then, did they just discard it all in favor of what they saw as "pearls?"

 

I am so sad for the negative publicity for the adoption community, the homeschooling community, the Christian community, but most of all I'm sad for those children, and the ones who have survived to this point. They will have a long road.

 

Here's a blog post I found about this situation that has this quote regarding the confusion of some of the good advice found in No Greater Joy materials http://mommypress.com/rebecca/tag/no-greater-joy-ministries. and a couple of quotes ...

 

"They did it to her in the name of Jesus and Micheal Pearl. Just in case any of my readers are confused, let me explain. You may not know who Mr. Pearl is – I’ll get to that – but I’m pretty sure you don’t know who their Jesus is either. Because that Jesus isn’t the same Jesus I serve, the one who clearly stated “Let the children come to me, and forbid them not” and “the kingdom of Heaven is of such as these” and “what you did unto the least of these my brethren, you did to me” and “unless you become as a little child, you shall in no wise enter the kingdom”."

 

Amen! Amen! Amen!!!!

 

"It’s like one of my friends so eloquently described it. Sure, I could dig through my cat’s litter box looking for Tootsie Rolls…but I’d have to paw through a lot of excrement to do so. And I sure wouldn’t want to eat the candy once I found it!"

[angela in ohio]

Number one, "all scriptures is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, reproving, setting things straight and disciplining in righteousness." It is mistaken to discount scripture because it's in the OT.

 

Thank you.

[tricia]

That's horrible. Very, very, sad.

[Mommy22alyns]

Ugh. I can just see the Frog and Toad are Friends book on the bed.

 

 

 

I know, me too. :crying:

[Sandy in Indy]

It's the Ezzos whose children are estranged...or were the last time I looked into them. I feel just as strongly about them (Ezzos) as I do the Pearls. Their material makes me ill.

[CatMomof3]

Teaching an older child how to spank a younger one? :001_huh:

I was on the verge a tears while reading the posts, but was beyond disgusted when I read the oldest was practicing on the youngest. What the? The children needed a loving father and mother not an abusive father, mother, and siblings. I don't understand.

 

I went to my in-laws church a couple of times. The last time I went the paster was saying that children come out of the womb lying and said that when the baby was crying and not hungering he was lying. He said that it was OK to spank the baby. I got up and left.

[Peek a Boo]

I am working my way through the Pearl materials so i can speak to what is actually written, but have not done TTUAC yet.

 

Created to be His Helpmeet had some great stuff, and some downright heretical stuff. I used a green marker to highlight the good and a yellow to highlight the WRONG. I also marked a copious amount of notes in the margins. At the rate this book is being distributed, I'm tempted to mark up as many copies as I can and release THOSE.

 

However, as to the OP--- didn't we just have a thread about owning our choices?

This child is not dead because of the Pearls: children have been routinely beaten [even to the point of death, w/ religious overtones] as punishment for centuries. Far longer than the Pearls have ever been around. This child is dead because the PARENTS decided to beat them to death.

 

As distasteful as I find their materials and methods, The Pearls never beat a child to death. So if we're going to examine the credibility of the author, then we need to examine their own practice. In the very same manner that we don't judge Christ by His Followers, so also do we not judge the Pearls by THEIR followers. They have enough crap to account for all on their own as it is-- we don't need to stretch the truth for their methods to be any more horrible.

 

Placing the emphasis on the Pearls is a great danger to the issue and only causes more problems. It is one thing to warn people about the Pearl's methods-- an entire other thing to blame the Pearls when a child dies.

People need to know that THEY are the ones owning THEIR choices.

 

threads like this only promote more passing of the buck of responsibility.

[Guest janainaz]

In regard to parenting (or marriages or ANY relationship) - anytime law is enforced in lieu of love, there is going to be death. The Pearl's law-centered focus in parenting is probably causing many deaths wether it be in the form of breaking a child's spirit or physical harm. I can't stand their thinking and the heart from which is stems. Clearly, their God is a dictator and it's reflected in what they teach.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Peek, I am a BIG one for personal responsibility. I find it annoying that it seems so few people take responsibility any more. Drives me batty! HOWEVER, if someone puts themselves in a position of authority and tells others what to do, they are responsible ALSO (key word: also). If not legally, then morally. And they will be held accountable by God and his appointed King, Jesus.

[elizabeth]

I am working my way through the Pearl materials so i can speak to what is actually written, but have not done TTUAC yet.

 

Created to be His Helpmeet had some great stuff, and some downright heretical stuff. I used a green marker to highlight the good and a yellow to highlight the WRONG. I also marked a copious amount of notes in the margins. At the rate this book is being distributed, I'm tempted to mark up as many copies as I can and release THOSE.

 

However, as to the OP--- didn't we just have a thread about owning our choices?

This child is not dead because of the Pearls: children have been routinely beaten [even to the point of death, w/ religious overtones] as punishment for centuries. Far longer than the Pearls have ever been around. This child is dead because the PARENTS decided to beat them to death.

 

As distasteful as I find their materials and methods, The Pearls never beat a child to death. So if we're going to examine the credibility of the author, then we need to examine their own practice. In the very same manner that we don't judge Christ by His Followers, so also do we not judge the Pearls by THEIR followers. They have enough crap to account for all on their own as it is-- we don't need to stretch the truth for their methods to be any more horrible.

 

Placing the emphasis on the Pearls is a great danger to the issue and only causes more problems. It is one thing to warn people about the Pearl's methods-- an entire other thing to blame the Pearls when a child dies.

People need to know that THEY are the ones owning THEIR choices.

 

threads like this only promote more passing of the buck of responsibility.

Extending the arguement posed by your logic unless osama bin laden actually killed someone he should not be sought by the US Military . Not judging him by his followers and such.

[Poke Salad Annie]

In regard to parenting (or marriages or ANY relationship) - anytime law is enforced in lieu of love, there is going to be death. The Pearl's law-centered focus in parenting is probably causing many deaths wether it be in the form of breaking a child's spirit or physical harm. I can't stand their thinking and the heart from which is stems. Clearly, their God is a dictator and it's reflected in what they teach.

 

I agree. This is such a horrible situation.

[Peek a Boo]

Extending the arguement posed by your logic unless osama bin laden actually killed someone he should not be sought by the US Military . Not judging him by his followers and such.

 

logically speaking:

 

If the Pearls actually orchestrated the attack on the child and made a video announcing the planned death and destruction then I might agree with you.

 

there are very explicit rules to be considered an accessory to a crime.

motive is a big one.

The Pearls simply do not call for beating a child TO DEATH.

 

eta:

for everyone else-- here's a wiki to bin Laden's beliefs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beliefs_and_ideology_of_Osama_bin_Laden

Edited February 16, 2010 by Peek a Boo

[Peek a Boo]

Peek, I am a BIG one for personal responsibility. I find it annoying that it seems so few people take responsibility any more. Drives me batty! HOWEVER, if someone puts themselves in a position of authority and tells others what to do, they are responsible ALSO (key word: also). If not legally, then morally. And they will be held accountable by God and his appointed King, Jesus.

 

I absolutely agree.

but even the articles point out that these parents crossed a line that the Pearls specifically say NOT to cross.

[Mejane]

 

People need to know that THEY are the ones owning THEIR choices.

 

threads like this only promote more passing of the buck of responsibility.

 

These people are brainless sheep. Sheep do not own choices. The Pearls know these sheep are out there using their book. They know there have been and will continue to be casualties. They don't care or they would pull the book off the market. They are as responsible as if they had held the hose in their own hands.

[elizabeth]

Sometimes motive is persuasive to a jury but not an element that has to be proven . The Pearls give explicit instructions for the use of a weapon and further how to avoid detection by those who object to child abuse. As I am a lawyer I will not continue to debate this with a non lawyer who uses words with a highly specific legal meaning in a colloquial manner. Not an insult, I simply do not have the time to both clarify terms and debate the relative merits of a possible claim that could be brought against the Pearls.

[nono]

I absolutely agree.

but even the articles point out that these parents crossed a line that the Pearls specifically say NOT to cross.

 

Yet.

[Elaine]

Sometimes motive is persuasive to a jury but not an element that has to be proven . The Pearls give explicit instructions for the use of a weapon and further how to avoid detection by those who object to child abuse. As I am a lawyer I will not continue to debate this with a non lawyer who uses words with a highly specific legal meaning in a colloquial manner. Not an insult, I simply do not have the time to both clarify terms and debate the relative merits of a possible claim that could be brought against the Pearls.

 

Oh, are you a lawyer? We had forgotten.:001_rolleyes:

[Mejane]

Oh, are you a lawyer? We had forgotten.:001_rolleyes:

 

Did you have something worthwhile to add to the discussion? We await it with bated breath.

[Elaine]

Did you have something worthwhile to add to the discussion? We await it with bated breath.

 

Nope. Just being snarky.

 

Clearly you are new.

[Mejane]

Nope. Just being snarky.

 

Clearly you are new.

 

Clearly. I won't hold my breath.

[dtb1999]

Joanne- Thank you for being outspoken about these horrible "parenting" techniques.

 

I hope these parents are convicted of both murder and torture, as they obviously did both.

 

I cannot imagine punishing a child physically for mispronouncing a word.

 

:iagree: (but without the smile) The Pearls are disgusting. Those "parents" are disgusting. Ugh...that poor girl was beaten to death because she mispronounced a word in what sounds like a Frog and Toad story book. :crying: How could anyone beat a child to the point of cardiac arrest and death over such a thing, or anything for that matter? :sad: I truly hope they rot in jail.

[Daisy]

We've been over this a million times. If this was chicken poo, it would be nice rich compost by now.

 

The Pearl's materials are horrible. We've all read the quotes. Quotes that weren't misunderstood due to lack of context.

 

This is a horrible tragedy. Unfortunately, too many Christian parents seem to think they can buy a book that will work a magic transformation on their children. Steps 1-12 for making instantly obedient, completely compliant mini Christians. Parenting doesn't work that way.

 

I think the books should be thrown in the trash. **If** the Pearls are just misunderstood horrible writers, then the minute their materials lead to the death of a child, they would have yanked them off the shelves and rewritten them.

 

Disgusting.