If you're a confident atheist, what makes you so sure?

[msjones]

Thank you for asking.

 

Originally I simply didn't care. I was raised to be open to religion. My family believed in God but didn't go to church. My father was Missouri Synod Lutheran and my mother hated the Catholic church. It was always put to me that someday I might marry a girl that was religious and I might choose to join her faith. I never questioned this. God was always there, I always assumed that, even though I wasn't religious that God was there for me. When asked what religion I was I answered, "Lutheran." I went to many weddings and funerals with my Catholic relatives and could kneel and genuflect with the best of them. But as I got older I began to question why I felt the need to answer, "Lutheran" when I wasn't religious. Why was I ashamed to be what I was?

 

This was the beginning of my questioning.

 

I read the Bible from cover to cover. I still keep one on the bookshelf here and read it from time to time. At one point I was able to quote chapter and verse from it. I went to Lutheran services for a time, even bringing my family as we thought the children could do with religious teaching. But the more I was exposed to it the more I questioned it. And then the religious right started to take over the Republican party. James Dobson and Focus on the Family started to become loud and angry. I realized that what they stood for, I was against. If there was a god out there he wouldn't have anything to do with harming homosexuals or watching what I did in my bedroom. He wouldn't condone taking a busload of children on a picnic and baptizing them without their parents consent. Fred Phelps does not speak for God. Slowly I came to realize that while I might consider believing in a god it was not the same god these people believed in.

 

So I became an atheist in a sense. I knew what gods I didn't believe in. I didn't believe in Thor or Zeus or Ra or the god of Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell or Ted Haggard.

 

But I still wouldn't have classified myself as an atheist. I still would have said that yes, there was a Big Bang but surely a deity could have started it all. Evolution was true but it could have been directed. There were all these little copouts that let a god of the gaps creep in. But, as time went by I found that, more and more, I just didn't believe. Not just in specific gods but in any god. It's not like I ever needed a deity to give me purpose and I certainly didn't need a god to calm my nerves about dying. When the curtain goes down and the lights go out it's rather comforting to know that's it. There is nothing else, no grand inquisition awaiting me after death, just blackness.

 

With that in mind I found that there just wasn't any evidence of a god, no need for a creator and no reason to cling to the notion that I needed a god. So all that was left was the pressure of others who insisted that I couldn't be a good person without God in my life.

 

Ya know what? I'm a good person because it's the right thing to do, not out of fear of consequences from some unseen deity. Strike three.

 

I simply don't believe. But how do I know? What's more likely? A magic being who can do anything and interferes in our lives daily but leaves no trace or no being? The God most people imagine can't exist because the traces it would leave would be all over the place and they just aren't there. Matter doesn't move by itself. Matter, energy... they don't appear and disappear. God isn't Harry Potter. Harry Potter isn't Harry Potter. Magic is an illusion. So, I believe, is god.

 

I'd like to say I absolutely KNOW that there is no god. I can only say I absolutely know there aren't SOME gods. I believe there aren't any. I'm an atheist.

 

I think I understand most of your post, but have a few questions...based on the evolution thread you don't seem easy to offend, so, here ya' go...

 

You were a key element in the evolution conversation -- I appreciated your persistently pressing others to seek evidence.

 

So, along that line of argument -- do you have evidence against a god/God/creator? Your post explains your concerns with American Christian culture, and your personal non-need for religion. Those are easy for me to understand, but I'm wondering about what you would see as evidence.

 

You mention matter not moving on its own, and a lack of "traces" of a god/God. I think I see what you're getting at; we can explain most/much of what happens through science, so God isn't 'necessary.' (Correct me if I'm misunderstanding...)

 

Is that enough evidence for you? I wouldn't have thought so, based on your posts in the other thread.

[kalanamak]

I'm not an atheist any more, but I can't agree with that assessment. When I was an atheist I lacked faith. Now I have faith. It's just that simple.

 

 

Or, you had skepticism, and now you lack it.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I wouldn't say I'm an atheist, but I'm definitely a firm agnostic. I believe there is some sort of higher power(s) but I don't know what it/they are. I definitely don't believe in the Christian God. I've experienced too many "coincidences" and such in life to chalk them up to mere coincidence. I think there is something behind the scenes that we're not seeing, but it's nothing I can put a name to. I've explored lots of religions and none of them really speak to me.

 

:iagree:

[Audrey]

One cannot prove a negative. The onus is on the one who believes x does exist to prove it. Not the other way around.

 

I don't know if this link is allowed, but it does very clearly state the logic required to prove existence of deities, along with some logical arguments as to why the onus is on the faith holders.

[msjones]

One cannot prove a negative. The onus is on the one who believes x does exist to prove it. Not the other way around.

 

I don't know if this link is allowed, but it does very clearly state the logic required to prove existence of deities, along with some logical arguments as to why the onus is on the faith holders.

 

Very key point. I was wondering about this very thing (the problem of 'proving' a negative), as I wrote my reply to Phred.

[Rosie_0801]

For the record, I do have a deity equivelent, but it doesn't fit into any of the deity categories I've read about. Oh well. *shrug*

 

Rosie

 

Well now my interest is piqued!

 

 

Sorry, this is going to disappoint :)

My deity equivelent is the Tao which I think is comprised of instinct, the laws of physics and that sort of stuff. Couldn't be more mundane, really.

 

Rosie

[asta]

Wonder if anyone's put Pastafarian. Or Jedi.

 

I suspect my kid would put Pastafarian.

[Carrie12345]

I am an atheist because theism doesn't make sense to me.

 

To say anymore would be to (attempt to) discredit those who do believe, and I think people who (attempt to) do that to me are rotten people, so I won't. :)

[Cammie]

I just don't believe in church...but I am ok with a god - I don't know what that makes me! I grew up in a Christian house (dad is a pastor, grandfather is pastor, great-grandfather was a pastor...). It was a very liberal Christan upbringing, however. I saw from an early age that people could call themselves "Christian" and yet be the ugliest, meanest people you met. We often had church members who were just hateful people. We were also involved in some prominent Christian organizations - the leaders of which engaged in sexual harrassment and infidelity. So...I don't have any faith that beloning in an institutionalized religion is any guarantee of anything. I married a Hindu. We teach our children that there are many forms of god. I do hope they find solace, comfort in the concept of a god. However, we will not force them to choose one path over another.

[jplain]

Do any atheists here wish they could believe in God?

Sure, but not for spiritual reasons. It would be nice to belong to a religious community, as our neighborhoods no longer meet the definition of a community. But it doesn't bother me much, as I do have a community of friends. If that ever changes, I'll mosey on over to the UU church in the next town, where all are welcome.

[jplain]

So, along that line of argument -- do you have evidence against a god/God/creator?

Repeating what has been said before, this negative can't be proven...at least not by me. ;)

If there's proof to be had, it'll have to be provided by the believer, not the disbeliever.

 

Scientists don't actively seek evidence against ideas that are not directly suggested by specific observations. In other words, while scientists do actively seek to disprove their own hypotheses, they don't spend time trying to disprove hypotheses that are not supported by any observations. That wouldn't fit with the scientific method. *shrug*

Edited September 27, 2009 by jplain
attempting clarity

[LibraryLover]

Wonder if anyone's put Pastafarian. Or Jedi.

 

 

Is Jedi a culture or a religion?

[Tree House Academy]

I remember being a child and realizing the truth about Santa Claus and keeping up with the charade of it. It was fun. It was something that everyone I knew did. It took me a couple more years to realize that even the grown-ups believed in Jesus. I remember being 11 or 12 and telling my grandma that it was okay. I didn't need to memorize any more verses because I knew it was pretend. She was horrified. I'll never forget it.

 

 

 

This same EXACT thing happened to me. It was so terrible that I planned to never even do Santa with my kids! It made me struggle and question my faith for YEARS and YEARS.

[jplain]

Is Jedi a culture or a religion?

Is Pastafarian? :lol:

[kiana]

Is Jedi a culture or a religion?

 

http://www.jedichurch.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jediism

 

:P

[Haiku]

I've heard it said (and tend to agree) that atheism requires just as much faith as a belief in god.

 

I don't think that is true at all, and I think that people who believe in a god say this to imply that everyone has "faith" in something.

 

I don't believe that atheism is faith-based.

 

I don't believe in god for two reasons: I have never seen or heard any evidence that convinces me of such a being, and the universality of belief in god/s in varying forms makes it implausible to me that there is one god with one correct way to worship.

 

ETA:

Do any atheists here wish they could believe in God?

 

No. Never. Nothing is missing from my life that believing in a god could fix. I do practice a religion, but it has nothing to do with faith in a deity or being punished/rewarded for my behavior.

 

Tara

Edited September 27, 2009 by TaraTheLiberator

[Greta]

I think the idea (as I understand it) is that just as one can't prove that God exists, one can't prove that God doesn't exist -- so that's the leap of 'faith.'

 

And it seems, if I'm not misunderstanding, that many folks who have responded agree that they aren't certain -- they're choosing to believe what makes the most sense to them given what they do know to be true, or what seems to be false.

 

I think I'd call that faith. But, I certainly don't have some well-developed definition of "faith." I'm just thinking 'out loud.'

 

I don't have a well developed definition either, and I am also thinking out loud here, but I think those making the positive claim (that something exists or is true) are the ones who have the burden of proof, and are said to have faith if they believe it even with a lack of proof. I mean, we can all come up with lots of imaginary things that we don't believe in, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I have "faith" that unicorns or ghosts or whatever don't exist right? The people claiming those things do exist even with a lack of prove are the ones who have faith. That's just what makes sense to me, anyway.

 

I have no axe to grind here. I just find it a fascinating topic -- and that evolution thread really got me thinking.

 

Same here! :001_smile:

[Greta]

Or, you had skepticism, and now you lack it.

 

:D Perhaps so! But I've kept my skepticism in tact in other areas.

[jplain]

I mean, we can all come up with lots of imaginary things that we don't believe in, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I have "faith" that unicorns or ghosts or whatever don't exist right? The people claiming those things do exist even with a lack of prove are the ones who have faith.

:iagree:

 

The only reason this becomes a question at all is because believers outnumber nonbelievers by a lot. It seems to believers that nonbelievers must be making a leap of faith, simply because they're going against the grain.

[fivetails]

I was an Atheist as a kid and part of my teens ~ or mostly. I guess. That's what my father and stepmother, who'd raised me from 4-13 were, and that's what they expected us to be, so I guess I was. Funny thing though, I was the odd little kid in the family who kept trying to go to church - looking back on it now, I think that was because even though my folks tried to have me believe the same as they did, I *knew* there was more to it all. That there was more out there than they'd said, and I wanted to find it. I did, eventually, but it sure took a long time and a lot of side trips ~ I don't think there's a faith out there that I didn't stick my nose into along the way.

 

That even included Jedi ;) ~ not for me though, I dated one for three years. {He also thought he was immortal. Interesting relationship, that was.}

[secular_mom]

I think the idea (as I understand it) is that just as one can't prove that God exists, one can't prove that God doesn't exist -- so that's the leap of 'faith.'

 

And it seems, if I'm not misunderstanding, that many folks who have responded agree that they aren't certain -- they're choosing to believe what makes the most sense to them given what they do know to be true, or what seems to be false.

 

I think I'd call that faith. But, I certainly don't have some well-developed definition of "faith." I'm just thinking 'out loud.'

 

I have no axe to grind here. I just find it a fascinating topic -- and that evolution thread really got me thinking.

 

Extraordinary claims (god exists and is in control of everything and knows your every thought, etc.) require extraordinary proof. IMO,

having religious faith means you firmly believe in something for which there is no proof. Not believing in something that you've never seen any proof for does not = some negative form of faith.

[Phred]

I think I understand most of your post, but have a few questions...based on the evolution thread you don't seem easy to offend, so, here ya' go...

 

You were a key element in the evolution conversation -- I appreciated your persistently pressing others to seek evidence.

 

So, along that line of argument -- do you have evidence against a god/God/creator? Your post explains your concerns with American Christian culture, and your personal non-need for religion. Those are easy for me to understand, but I'm wondering about what you would see as evidence.

 

You mention matter not moving on its own, and a lack of "traces" of a god/God. I think I see what you're getting at; we can explain most/much of what happens through science, so God isn't 'necessary.' (Correct me if I'm misunderstanding...)

 

Is that enough evidence for you? I wouldn't have thought so, based on your posts in the other thread.

I don't have specific evidence against a god/creator. I also don't have specific evidence against 40-foot tall invisible bunnies. But I know they exist because they eat fairies and have you seen any fairies lately? Thing is, if we based our positive beliefs, ie - I believe in *insert something here* because there is no evidence against it. You'd have to believe in dragons and fairies and elves and goblins and myriads of creatures and gods that you can't prove don't exist. What one needs is evidence FOR something in order to believe in it. Which leads us to your next question...

 

What would I see as evidence? Manna that fell from the sky whenever people were starving. Cladistics that indicated creation instead of evolution. Unique genetic codes in every species instead of humans and chimps sharing 98% of their DNA (for example). Creatures that break the mold, so to speak, chimeras, griffins, animals with six limbs instead of tetrapods being the basic working template for all mammals. It would be hard to deny a creator if there were no way for life to exist without one.

 

If the creator god is a personal god then I'd like to see an aboriginal come out of the jungle and tell us about Jesus. I'd expect the entire world to believe in one god, not the way we tend to follow our parent's or our culture's choices.

 

I'd expect to see an amputee regrow a limb.

 

Now let me ask, what evidence would lead you to believe that God does not exist?

[fivetails]

I also don't have specific evidence against 40-foot tall invisible bunnies. But I know they exist because they eat fairies and have you seen any fairies lately?

 

:lol:

 

I may not agree with you on matters of faith/religion/etc, but you sure have a way with words that I can appreciate. :D

[nmoira]

Is Jedi a culture or a religion?

Yes.

 

:D

[nmoira]

 

Now let me ask, what evidence would lead you to believe that God does not exist?

I'd also like to know what can make some confident theists so sure of their particular beliefs that they can say with certainty that other theists are wrong. Edited September 27, 2009 by nmoira
typo

[Avila]

I'd also like to know what can make a some confident theists so sure of their particular beliefs that they can say with certainty that other theists are wrong.

:iagree:

 

Not an atheist, so please forgive the intrusion. But have I said lately how much I like you all? How lovely to have a respectful conversation.

[msjones]

I don't have specific evidence against a god/creator. I also don't have specific evidence against 40-foot tall invisible bunnies. But I know they exist because they eat fairies and have you seen any fairies lately? Thing is, if we based our positive beliefs, ie - I believe in *insert something here* because there is no evidence against it. You'd have to believe in dragons and fairies and elves and goblins and myriads of creatures and gods that you can't prove don't exist. What one needs is evidence FOR something in order to believe in it. Which leads us to your next question...

 

What would I see as evidence? Manna that fell from the sky whenever people were starving. Cladistics that indicated creation instead of evolution. Unique genetic codes in every species instead of humans and chimps sharing 98% of their DNA (for example). Creatures that break the mold, so to speak, chimeras, griffins, animals with six limbs instead of tetrapods being the basic working template for all mammals. It would be hard to deny a creator if there were no way for life to exist without one.

 

If the creator god is a personal god then I'd like to see an aboriginal come out of the jungle and tell us about Jesus. I'd expect the entire world to believe in one god, not the way we tend to follow our parent's or our culture's choices.

 

I'd expect to see an amputee regrow a limb.

 

Now let me ask, what evidence would lead you to believe that God does not exist?

 

Hey.

No asking ME any questions -- I'm the question-asker! ;)

Seriously, though, I don't claim to have any articulate, well-thought-out answers to these types of questions; that's why I'm intrigued and why I started the thread. I wanted to hear from some others. One cannot find a conversation like this in everyday life.

 

Consider me an interested listener.

[ma23peas]

I'd also like to know what can make some confident theists so sure of their particular beliefs that they can say with certainty that other theists are wrong.

 

Leap of faith.

[Jenny in Atl]

I'm another nothing.

 

I love the trappings (images & such) from many of the World's faiths (both monotheistic & polytheistic) but I always come back to the same feeling, that it's all man made.

[asta]

I'm another nothing.

 

I love the trappings (images & such) from many of the World's faiths (both monotheistic & polytheistic) but I always come back to the same feeling, that it's all man made.

 

Well, that, and the incense smells really good.

[Jenny in Atl]

Well, that, and the incense smells really good.

 

Yup, you got pegged! :D

[nmoira]

 

I love the trappings (images & such) from many of the World's faiths (both monotheistic & polytheistic) but I always come back to the same feeling, that it's all man made.

Me too. I am especially partial to High Anglican midnight mass.

[Tangerine]

This thread inspired me to gather up the family and go to the Sunday services at the Chicago Ethical Humanist Society this morning. I've been meaning to do that forever, so thanks!

[nmoira]

 

This thread inspired me to gather up the family and go to the Sunday services at the Chicago Ethical Humanist Society this morning. I've been meaning to do that forever, so thanks!

Shoot... wasted two seconds of my life trying to click "like." :lol:

[Rosie_0801]

Now let me ask, what evidence would lead you to believe that God does not exist?

 

I rather like how religions deal with that. All those nasty things that God wouldn't do are attributed to Satan. That's nice and tidy.

 

Rosie

[shadowcat]

I'm fairly atheistic. And I don't miss anything. I know a lot of people find solace in religion, but I've never been able to comfort myself with what I consider falsehoods.

[Night Elf]

I don't have specific evidence against a god/creator. I also don't have specific evidence against 40-foot tall invisible bunnies. But I know they exist because they eat fairies and have you seen any fairies lately?

 

:lol::lol: This is by far one of the best posts I have ever read. I think I'll print this out and put it in my journal. It's so much what I want to say and cannot put into words.

[jamnkats]

Yes. However, even if someone could prove to me that their god(s) existed, I highly doubt I would worship it. I have studied a great number of religions over my lifetime, but none have deities that appeal to me enough to worship them even if I had proof of their existence.

 

Put me here. I have no need to believe in anyone's god and as such have no need for a religion. I'm very happy without any gods to worship and have no need to believe in anything. Not sure if there is any higher power and really don't care if there are any.

[Barb_]

Do any atheists here wish they could believe in God? I am a Christian and my dh is an atheist. I knew that when I married him 11 yrs ago - but I love him. :) He says he wishes he could believe but he just doesn't. He goes to church with us on Sundays and he is the one to pray with dds every night. He doesn't want them to know that he's an atheist because he says he wants them to have hope. He knows more about religion than I do (his dad is a minister) and he often helps me when I struggle with things relating to faith. I hope there is no offense taken to my post - I am just curious if there are others who don't believe and wish they did.

 

With his dad's being a minister, rejecting the idea of a god may be akin to rejecting his father and his upbringing. To take it further, maybe your dh is really saying, "I wish belief were something I could share with you and my dad." I mean rather than belief for its own sake.

 

Barb

[EthiopianFood]

It would be hard to deny a creator if there were no way for life to exist without one.

 

I guess I need to visit the evolution thread, so hopefully I'm not just repeating something here. This idea is actually the only thing that really makes me think the idea of God could be plausible. With the Big Bang, where the heck did the space particles come from? To me, the idea of eternal space particles at least doesn't make any MORE sense than the idea of a being who must have created those particles in the first place. Using logic, we DO know that matter cannot come from nowhere. This IS something that we can observe. It is a law about physical reality, which is something we DO know about, something we can actually see, test, experience. We cannot see, test, or experience with any certainty a spiritual world, if there is one. If you know nothing about one thing, and at least something small about another, wouldn't you base your belief on the thing that you do know, if there isn't any other proof either way? Not that this is necessarily emotionally satisfying, but I'm trying to be logical, not emotional. :)

[Barb_]

I guess I need to visit the evolution thread, so hopefully I'm not just repeating something here. This idea is actually the only thing that really makes me think the idea of God could be plausible. With the Big Bang, where the heck did the space particles come from? To me, the idea of eternal space particles at least doesn't make any MORE sense than the idea of a being who must have created those particles in the first place. Using logic, we DO know that matter cannot come from nowhere. This IS something that we can observe. It is a law about physical reality, which is something we DO know about, something we can actually see, test, experience. We cannot see, test, or experience with any certainty a spiritual world, if there is one. If you know nothing about one thing, and at least something small about another, wouldn't you base your belief on the thing that you do know, if there isn't any other proof either way? Not that this is necessarily emotionally satisfying, but I'm trying to be logical, not emotional. :)

 

Yes, :iagree:

 

Although I went through fervent Catholicism in my early teens, that was the top of the bell curve for me, faithwise. Afterward, I slid from weak belief to agnosticism, to apathy. I fall short of calling myself atheist partially because of the stigma of the label and partially because of my deep-seated Catholic God-fear, but mostly because of everything we still don't know about how the universe works. It seems arrogant to dismiss at least the possibility of a deity I don't understand even as I currently don't believe one actually exists. I am sure of one thing, though. If there is a god, said god is logical and scientific the way the universe actually works--more like a system, actually-- rather than the temperamental and meddling God of the bible.

 

Barb

Edited September 28, 2009 by Barb F. PA in AZ
typos

[shadowcat]

I think there is also the club-like aspect to it though.

 

Not where I live. There's too many different kinds too close together to be cliquey.

[chiguirre]

Yes, :iagree:

 

I fall short of calling myself atheist partially because of the stigma of the label and partially because of my deep-seated Catholic God-fear, but mostly because of everything we still don't know about how the universe works.

Barb

 

I called myself an agnostic for a long time because it more accurately reflected my 99.9% sure belief that there was no anthropomorphic deity who created the universe. It was Francis Collins' treatment of agnosticism as fence-sitting which could be dismissed without an argument in The Language of God that finally provoked me enough to accept Dawkins' and Dennett's position that the 99.9%ers should just come out and say we're atheists. If more live-and-let-believe style non-believers adopt the atheist identity, it would be harder for hard core believe-as-I-do-or-burn style theists to characterize us as a radical, immoral fringe. People won't know that many atheists are the person next door unless we are honest about our beliefs. Unless we're open about our atheism most people will assume that they don't know any atheists and certainly no nice homeschool mom could possibly be one of "them".

 

I don't like suffering the stigma, but really, if we don't do anything to change it, the next generation of atheists/agnostics/free-thinkers will have exactly the same problem. If we make a stand, we can quickly turn things around. Look how quickly the civil rights and gay rights movements changed the American cultural landscape. Who knows, atheism might become acceptable enough that more than one member of Congress would identify themselves as an atheist.

 

nb: It's Pete Stark, and here's the link if you're curious: http://www.nysun.com/national/california-lawmaker-becomes-highest-ranking/50312/

[Jenny in Atl]

Yes, :iagree:

 

If there is a god, said god is logical and scientific the way the universe actually works--more like a system, actually-- rather than the temperamental and meddling God of the bible.

 

Barb

 

:iagree:

 

From another fence sitting "nothing"...

[melissel]

But I do cringe when someone says something like, "I don't practice any religion". I think they say that because saying "I'm an atheist" is too distasteful.

 

Do you think so? I guess I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. I assume that more people are agnostics than are atheists--they may feel that something bigger is "out there" but don't have any ceremony or ritual surrounding it and don't acre to think more about it. But I doubt most people could tell you what agnostic even means, so they say they don't practice any religion instead. I never even knew there was much of a stigma to calling yourself an atheist until recently, though, so maybe I'm just sheltered!

[Satori]

Only got to page 5, but I'm at my religious parent's house, hehe, so I just want this to be short and sweet.

 

I grew up in a religious household and community. But I've always questioned religion, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, etc... However my parent's were always firm about God being real. Finally, my first year out of the house in college, studying physics, I let go of my belief 110% forever. I love having science be able to explain the world in ways I can understand. I do not believe in the supernatural and never could go back again.

 

My husband is agnostic, doesn't know for sure, but the way he talks sometimes, he's more unaccepting than I am.

 

I think the term atheist is a bit scary for people, but I think this is changing as more and more people "come out".