SWB's MP article on reading: let's talk about a particular aspect of it

[Rhondabee]

Oh, Rosie, you just made my day!

 

I thought I was the only one who made elaborate garden plans including year-round harvests, and grey-water systems, and solar systems, and how to make homemade bread, etc, without ever having any of those plan come to fruition. (I even have two grain mills! - one electric, the other manual. They're both boxed up in the garage.)

 

I *hope* that one day maybe those plans will turn into an actual accomplishment. I'm kind of afraid that I'll be so old (and in so much pain), they will just get thrown away upon my death! Which, would really be a shame because they're such good plans! =)

 

I also completely relate to the other poster's liking how-to and self-help books better than other genres. Always have - not sure why.

 

Dreaming of a better life one day - LOL~

[stripe]

Thank you all for such a fascinating thread. I need to go back and read all the posts in careful detail but I don't have time!

 

I think it is vitally important not to belittle domestic work -- or other supposedly "brainless" lesser work, but it is important to cut wasted time. For me, for example, it's easy to waste chunks of time online for limited benefit. I frankly would be better off washing dishes in that time. We should be more thoughtful about how we spend our time. Perhaps if we put things in perspective and schedule OURSELVES time to think and do things to develop ourselves, we will be less motivated to "waste" time, while still getting the daily work done.

 

I read something, somewhere along the line (and maybe it was influenced by an Oprah show where the participants of the pioneer house or one of those shows about people reenacting historic life) that so much of women's work is about processes, things that need to be repeated, without a lasting "thing" at the end, that it can suggest that. Perhaps it does take mental adjustment to realize their value, perhaps not an intellectual value, but important nonetheless.

 

I have spent time in other places where washing dishes itself can be a big effort, and cooking takes exponentially longer, and I find the attitude toward time itself and what should get done to be really an interesting thought process for me. Yet people are willing to spend the time on such slow activities, and the food is so much better (than mine, at least).

 

 

I recommend Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work by Matthew B. Crawford for your spare time. I didn't finish it before it was due back at the library, but it was good reading.

Edited August 5, 2009 by stripe

[LibraryLover]

 

I recommend Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work by Matthew B. Crawford for your spare time. I didn't finish it before it was due back at the library, but it was good reading.

 

A little OT, but you reminded me of a book, based on Buddhist principles, entitled Chop Wood, Carry Water. It's been years since I read it, but it explores the idea of 'menial' work as contemplative and meditative.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I think the real issue is whether or not we're *choosing* to order our lives, or whether they're being ordered for us by outside pressures.

 

I definitely don't claim to have this figured out--I'm constantly re-evaluating and trying to resist outside pressures. And I like domestic detail. :001_smile: Bake a lot of cookies, clean up a lot of messes, muck a lot of stalls, supervise a lot of grammar exercises, find that fulfilling. I would *never* suggest that all domestic detail is trivial or unimportant.

 

But at home school conferences in particular, I see/hear so much directed at women, telling them that attending to the domestic details is the measure of their effectiveness as mothers/wives. Those of you who've been to the same conferences I've attended know what I'm talking about. It's very powerful. Responding to those voices--which can be overwhelmingly judgmental--can be reassuring. (Parenting and home schooling are, by their nature, tasks which we never feel we do well enough. If you don't identify with that "we," you're lucky and unusual.) But it also can be enslaving. I'd like home school parents--and mothers in particular--to know that those voices don't represent the entire home school community.

 

 

SWB

Edited August 5, 2009 by Susan Wise Bauer

[stripe]

Indeed -- there is something humbling about doing something that lasts for such a short time. But I think it all depends on one's perspective about what matters; comparing a daily homecooked meal and a reasonably clean house with not having one makes one value that sort of work. I think it's not necessarily the case that taking care of household chores excludes the ability to do any mental work.

 

SWB talks about "resisting the pressure of society to produce" but really I find in some ways that for those who stay home, we are resisting that urge. Society sees us as unemployed and contributing nothing financially to the home -- we are outside of that production model. Frankly, I love the freedom to plan my own days and pursue things at my own leisure/pleasure. I HIGHLY recommend the book A Mother's Work: How Feminism, the Market, and Policy Shape Family Life by Neil Gilbert, which I found out about from an article by Sandra Tsing Lo that was pretty funny.

 

SWB says

that the ability to put off immediate satisfaction (clean kitchen) for the sake of future gain (meaningful conversation with growing child) demonstrates self-discipline and maturity. The project of self-education requires you to take a very long view. It requires you to sometimes ignore immediate rewards in favor of a much greater reward down the road.

But it is important to realize that somehow, things do need to get done. SWB says "If you can't have that conversation with your child, then who is going to have it? You are going to have to outsource it to somebody else" -- but I cannot afford to outsource my housework. I do, however, have various kitchen machines, a gas oven with 4 burners on the stove, and a washing machine for laundry, and I definitely save time with those. And maybe we need to figure out how to squeeze them into a short period of time OR do them socially -- my mother-in-law prepares meals on a nearly daily basis with her daughters, and they are all adults.

 

But I really appreciate what she said about plodding through difficult books. I confess that I recently brought Bronte's "Villette" (which I'd bought in 1997) along with me while I was in a place with very little to do for weeks at a time, and I finally read it. :) And it was quite interesting. But I do need encouragement to make it through those toughies. Rosie, you should read Anna K., though; it is actually very lively reading.

 

Personally, as much as I love cooking and sewing (which I do more reading about than doing) and other domestic stuff, I would love to have a group of ladies with whom I could discuss things. I must say, I read the weird novel Gifted by Nikita Lalwani, and one thing I found interesting was the overachiever husband deciding when his wife first came with him to the UK, she should go daily to the library to read newspapers so they would have something to discuss besides family issues. I didn't like his character in the book, nor would I recommend the forced reading, but the sentiment wasn't bad, I thought.

Edited August 5, 2009 by stripe

[Caraway]

I am not sure how relevant this may be to your situation Colleen, but when I was experiencing something similar (Pretty Plastic Syndrome, wherein I had to do it all, perfectly, frugally, sweetly and wearing a freshly laundered skirt) I realized that all of the influences I surrounded myself with encouraged my behavior, everything from friends to magazines and blogs, to leisure reading. I had surrounded myself with people who valued the very thing I was coming to question, and so I felt even more alienated and alone.

Maybe trying something new, even just a magazine or book, might help. I stopped reading/participating in the activities that fed my anger and confusion and moved toward something else, no matter how haltingly. Blogs were a HUGE problem for me--just about every favorite I had bookmarked encouraged my PPS (Pretty Plastic Syndrome) I deleted them all, cancelled subscription to homemaking and homeschool magazines that aided and abetted my PPS, and reached out to all the things I missed from when I was a free young thang--art and writing blogs, magazines on creativity and the arts, books of peotry. It is amazing how just a very little time each day devoted to something completely impractical from a housekeeping/homeschooling/marriage/child-rearing point of view could completely revitalize me. (Just me. It didn't make me more effective, more scheduled or a better manager of my home. Just a better person.)

 

Finding time to tackle the major works of literature may not be feasible right now, but one article on poetry or one chapter of a book about your passion, one blog that values the same things you really do, or want to, well, it helped me feel more human and less plastic.

 

FWIW...;)

 

Thank you - I really enjoyed this post.

[lionfamily1999]

I think the real issue is whether or not we're *choosing* to order our lives, or whether they're being ordered for us by outside pressures.

 

I definitely don't claim to have this figured out--I'm constantly re-evaluating and trying to resist outside pressures. And I like domestic detail. :001_smile: Bake a lot of cookies, clean up a lot of messes, muck a lot of stalls, supervise a lot of grammar exercises, find that fulfilling. I would *never* suggest that all domestic detail is trivial or unimportant.

 

But at home school conferences in particular, I see/hear so much directed at women, telling them that attending to the domestic details is the measure of their effectiveness as mothers/wives. Those of you who've been to the same conferences I've attended know what I'm talking about. It's very powerful. Responding to those voices--which can be overwhelmingly judgmental--can be reassuring. (Parenting and home schooling are, by their nature, tasks which we never feel we do well enough. If you don't identify with that "we," you're lucky and unusual.) But it also can be enslaving. I'd like home school parents--and mothers in particular--to know that those voices don't represent the entire home school community.

 

 

SWB

Thank you.

 

It is very difficult to be a reader where I live. You might as well sprout two more heads. Yes, the dishes are in the sink and they aren't going to mutiny any time in the next hour while I enjoy this book. Yes, it is a "hard" book, yes it is a "classical" book, yes it is an "educational" book. No, I'm not in any classes, it is not "required" reading. Yes, I am reading it, because I want to read it.

 

It's incredible that a woman can get so many negative comments for a dirty sink and those comments treble if she's caught with a book. Thank you for standing up for the women that want to feed their minds and giving them "permission" to feel this way.

 

There is not an infinite amount of time to read or self-educate. Some of that time has to be taken from all those other important things that must be done. The beauty of many of the jobs sahms do is that they repeat and if you don't do it today, you can do it tomorrow (or in the five minutes before company comes through the door).

 

How people can argue with this, I don't know.

[LibraryLover]

 

It is very difficult to be a reader where I live. You might as well sprout two more heads. that time has to be taken from all those other important things that must be done. The beauty of many of the jobs sahms do is that they repeat and if you don't do it today, you can do it tomorrow (or in the five minutes before company comes through the door).

 

 

 

I snipped some of what you wrote, but I hope I kept the essence.

 

It is frustrating to do the same things over and over again. I've told my dh that some of the work is plain boring and *it's never done*! He agrees with me, thankfully! Although he respects that we have to work together. We plod through as best we can, bringing my mom in to help at times.

 

I live almost a stone's throw away from Cambridge, MA, and lived in the Brookline/Boston area for years. It's unthinkable there to not read or study. There is almost no way to keep up, even. One is never smart enough, well- read enough. Even if you read all of the Britannica Great Books (which I have not lol) , the guy or gal sipping wine next to you at the party, did the trivium and quadrivium during their undergraduate days at Harvard (which they really don't do these days). There are more books to read than there are dishes to wash! Nobody cares/d about dishes!

 

Most of my young adult life has been trying to find some kind of life balance in this way. When I first had a baby, it was rare to find anyone who even appreciated that they couldn't be left with just anyone while you pretended to live your intellectual life as if you hadn't just had a baby.

 

There are still people here don't even get why one would hs. Thoughts such as, "Isn't that just something religious people in the south do so their kids won't learn about evolution?" are more rare now, but you still find people who think that even if they don't say it. I have very supportive friends, and hsing is so much more common and accepted now. Many people in the past who wouldn't have considered hsing now do. Some even understand that it was relgious folk who made it safe and legal eveywhere in the US.

 

Finding a life balance can be challenging, no matter where one resides.

Edited August 5, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Laurie, that's a really useful reminder and well put.

[KristenS]

I liked the article. :) I'd gladly ignore dishes over reading any day. (I can't believe it took this many years for dh to talk me into a dishwasher!!!)

 

I do have trouble reading the longer 'classics' though... not enough uninterrupted time to contemplate. I started TWEM, but got bogged down in Don Quixote ... I just don't like the book. Maybe I should skip to another chapter and try a different classic? I do like some classics, but I prefer the juvenile ones. Haven't run out of material yet, and they sure fit my time schedule better.

 

As for self-educating nonfiction ... I've always (even in college) started with the juvenile books first. Good simple grounding, and a nice way to sort out what's considered 'common knowledge' from the deeper information that you need to cite properly. I just love going to our library discard sales and piling up twenty-five-cent books to further my education.

 

I've been reading some good (and old) histories of the ancient Greeks for children, and I've come to the conclusion that they were all quite mad. LOL. I thought it was just the first book, but nope, they were insane. That whole Trojan War thing ... crazy crazy crazy. But it made me feel better for being confused about it when I was younger!

[Marylou]

I liked the article. :) I'd gladly ignore dishes over reading any day. (I can't believe it took this many years for dh to talk me into a dishwasher!!!)

 

 

 

Dishwashers are okay for washing dishes, but they are GREAT for stashing clutter when company is coming over in 5 minutes ;)

 

(The oven and washing machine have similar capabilites!)

 

One of my favorite reasons for hsing (besides getting to be with my dc most of the time) is that I am constantly learning. A day without learning something new is like a day without a cookie. Sad.

[melissel]

I've been :lurk5: This thread has really struck a chord in me, for many reasons.

 

Can I just say how amazing it is that Susan takes the time to stop in and actually discuss this with us? Thank you for that!

 

 

 

Dishwashers are okay for washing dishes, but they are GREAT for stashing clutter when company is coming over in 5 minutes ;)

 

(The oven and washing machine have similar capabilites!)

 

:smilielol5: See, my problem with that is that the things I stash would never make it back OUT of their hiding places--at least not until I find that I'm preheating an oven full of unopened mail or loading drippy, dirty dishes above a container of crayons and play food!

[lionfamily1999]

:smilielol5: See, my problem with that is that the things I stash would never make it back OUT of their hiding places--at least not until I find that I'm preheating an oven full of unopened mail or loading drippy, dirty dishes above a container of crayons and play food!

BTDT, not a pretty picture (or the best of odors).

[LibraryLover]

Susan, I want to add that I enjoyed and appreciated the article.

 

I've been wanting to recommend a book that is making the rounds among some mothers I know. Perhaps it could be considered on topic for this thread.

 

I think most women, and mothers of daughters, might be able to relate to some of the issues presented in the book.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B001RS8L0K/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=133140011&s=digital-text

 

http://triplebind.com/reviews.html

Edited August 5, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Colleen in NS]

I dont think there need to be any conflict between the "little things" and the "big things"- its just that letting one get crowded out by the other, leaves one rather unfulfilled and basically, we are capable of much more.

 

What I bolded speaks to me about the "worth" part. Thank you.

 

Her emotional issues have kept her in her job class, and she has days it is better to let her mop and not talk, but when she is "okay" inside, I have yet to bring up a book, and esoteric dish, a place, she is not familar with.

 

This reminds me of my Dad, who has had a very difficult life, esp. from age 38 onwards. But when he graduated from Boston College High School, he went on to Boston College. Then his life happened. Then I lost track of him for a long time. Then we met up again and have been in touch for the last 13 years. A few years ago, when I mentioned that we were homeschooling, I remembered that BC was a parochial school, so, not knowing what he thought of homeschooling, I casually asked him if he'd studied GB, logic, rhetoric, and Latin at BC High or BC. (They were all completely new concepts for me) OH! Well, he lit right up on the phone and said, "YES!" to everything. We've gone on to have wonderful phone conversations about all these things, and he is the only person IRL so far that "gets" what I am talking about or asking. He has answered so many questions for me and has encouraged me with reading ideas and talking about them, etc.. I just wish he lived closer, but he's in Boston (so what LaurieNE wrote was interesting to me).

 

Don't we deprive ourselves of the thought that our studies are just as important as those of our children if we tell them to sit and study/read, but we scrub the floors instead, and say it's ok because we try to have a few coherent thoughts as we do so?

 

What do you think?

 

I think I agree with you!:) I think I need a separate alone study time in order to fuel my broken thoughts while washing the dishes. Maybe my thoughts-while-dishwashing would glue themselves back together better.

 

I think the real issue is whether or not we're *choosing* to order our lives, or whether they're being ordered for us by outside pressures.

 

That was the gist I picked up from your article.

 

But at home school conferences in particular, I see/hear so much directed at women, telling them that attending to the domestic details is the measure of their effectiveness as mothers/wives. Those of you who've been to the same conferences I've attended know what I'm talking about. It's very powerful. Responding to those voices--which can be overwhelmingly judgmental--can be reassuring. (Parenting and home schooling are, by their nature, tasks which we never feel we do well enough. If you don't identify with that "we," you're lucky and unusual.) But it also can be enslaving. I'd like home school parents--and mothers in particular--to know that those voices don't represent the entire home school community.

 

I've only been to one homeschool conference (the PHP one), but in the past, I've read a lot of the books that tell homeschooling Moms these things. Yep, they sure were reassuring....for a long time....until I got sick of feeling like I didn't measure up. Once again, thank you for speaking out on behalf of people like me. And for giving us "permission" to be free. :lol: And for not judging us.

 

Yes, the dishes are in the sink and they aren't going to mutiny any time in the next hour while I enjoy this book. Yes, it is a "hard" book, yes it is a "classical" book, yes it is an "educational" book. No, I'm not in any classes, it is not "required" reading. Yes, I am reading it, because I want to read it.

 

:lol::lol::lol: I love it!

 

I live almost a stone's throw away from Cambridge, MA, and lived in the Brookline/Boston area for years. It's unthinkable there to not read or study. There is almost no way to keep up, even. One is never smart enough, well- read enough. Even if you read all of the Britannica Great Books (which I have not lol) , the guy or gal sipping wine next to you at the party, did the trivium and quadrivium during their undergraduate days at Harvard (which they really don't do these days). There are more books to read than there are dishes to wash! Nobody cares/d about dishes!

 

Very interesting!

 

But how does one not care about the dishes/laundry/whatever? Do they have household help? Or do people just have a different way of thinking/operating? My mother, when I first had babies, would tell me that I worried too much about domestic things - but I could not stand to live in disorganization, and definitely couldn't have afforded to hire help. Maybe she was onto something that I simply cannot wrap my head around. Cuz she certainly had us five kids doing chores when we were growing up.

 

I don't even live in a huge house compared to the McMansions around here. It even has just one bathroom and I *loved* moving from a 1.5 bathroom house to a one bathroom house! Less work! But people thought we were weird for *wanting* just one bathroom. But the house still feels like too much work for two adults and two young kids. And I don't really want to think "Oh, as my kids get older they can help with more chores." Why? So they can grow up thinking that life consists of getting through a day of chores and working-for-pay? I could see if the chores related to something you enjoy doing like maintaining a pool if your a swimmer family, or maintaining a garden because you love having fresh produce and you love preserving it. But vacuuming/scrubbing floors that are more square footage than you feel you need, or cleaning the endless badly-caked-on spatters from a kitchen's walls/cupboards/counters/appliances that are also more spread out than you really need, or feeling the mental pressure to mow the lawn more than every two or three weeks because of worry about what the retired neighbours think....this is what drives me crazy. It takes up mental space. But I still fight on, trying to change my thinking from worrying about what others think.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[JennW in SoCal]

But at home school conferences in particular, I see/hear so much directed at women, telling them that attending to the domestic details is the measure of their effectiveness as mothers/wives.

 

 

Really? Wow! I've never heard anything like that in my neck of the woods. In my neighborhood it seems no one reads because they are too busy at the tennis club, the spa or in some women's philanthropic club. Everyone has gardeners and house keepers so no one ever frets about dirty dishes, and the kids are kept overly scheduled so as not to be a bother.

 

But this thread got to me last night. Instead of putting away laundry, and instead of picking up the Charlaine Harris vampire book I had started, I decided to pull out the biography of Ghengis Khan that has been on my nightstand for months! Blood sucking vs historical bloodshed...both satisfying on different levels, I guess!

[lionfamily1999]

But how does one not care about the dishes/laundry/whatever? Do they have household help? Or do people just have a different way of thinking/operating? My mother, when I first had babies, would tell me that I worried too much about domestic things - but I could not stand to live in disorganization, and definitely couldn't have afforded to hire help. Maybe she was onto something that I simply cannot wrap my head around. Cuz she certainly had us five kids doing chores when we were growing up.

 

I don't even live in a huge house compared to the McMansions around here. It even has just one bathroom and I *loved* moving from a 1.5 bathroom house to a one bathroom house! Less work! But people thought we were weird for *wanting* just one bathroom. But the house still feels like too much work for two adults and two young kids. And I don't really want to think "Oh, as my kids get older they can help with more chores." Why? So they can grow up thinking that life consists of getting through a day of chores? I could see if the chores related to something you enjoy doing like maintaining a pool if your a swimmer family, or maintaining a garden because you love having fresh produce and you love preserving it. But vacuuming/scrubbing floors that are more square footage than you feel you need, or cleaning the endless spatters from a kitchen's walls/cupboards/counters/appliances that are also more spread out than you really need, or feeling the mental pressure to mow the lawn more than every two or three weeks because of worry about what the retired neighbours think....this is what drives me crazy. It takes up mental space. But I still fight on, trying to change my thinking from worrying about what others think.

We are complete opposites. I watch people freaking out about a handful of dandelions and think, 'I like dandelions, they're free flowers.'

 

We live in a tiny house. Do you remember the thread about absolutely adorable little cottages, our house is in the mid-range of those listed. No one understands how I can stand it, but I don't know how they put up with so much extraneous space. I completely understand you wanting some place smaller. It doesn't necessarily translate into easier to clean (someone is always underfoot), but it does mean less space and more us, iykwIm.

[Audrey]

I' I'd like home school parents--and mothers in particular--to know that those voices don't represent the entire home school community.

 

 

SWB

 

 

I feel this way about many subjects pertinent to homeschooling. I would like to be able to say "I am a homeschooling mom" without people making assumptions as to my personality, my religion, or my lifestyle.

 

The fact that I homeschool is not the measure of my worth as a human being.

[angela in ohio]

Really? Wow! I've never heard anything like that in my neck of the woods. In my neighborhood it seems no one reads because they are too busy at the tennis club, the spa or in some women's philanthropic club. Everyone has gardeners and house keepers so no one ever frets about dirty dishes, and the kids are kept overly scheduled so as not to be a bother.

 

 

Yes, it's easy to dismiss it as "those sheltered Christians," but there are plenty of people who aren't of a particular Christian homeschooling set who busy themselves with things that keep them from thinking, reading, and deliberately doing things of value.

[LibraryLover]

 

But how does one not care about the dishes/laundry/whatever? Do they have household help? Or do people just have a different way of thinking/operating? My mother, when I first had babies, would tell me that I worried too much about domestic things - but I could not stand to live in disorganization, and definitely couldn't have afforded to hire help. Maybe she was onto something that I simply cannot wrap my head around. Cuz she certainly had us five kids doing chores when we were growing up.

 

quote]

 

 

I think sometimes it's more that household tasks are not respected in the way learning/reading is respected. These things get done because if you don't do them, you'll have to tackle roaches, not because it's something that's more important than reading or discussing big ideas with your children etc.

 

 

I don't mean to speak for others I know/knew, and whether they value clean homes...I didn't mean to do that. I wanted to relate that in my own corner, it isn't expected that women keep house over having an intellectual life. I personally get great pleasure in caring for my family, and I certainly know friends who went to Ivy schools (I did not) who also enjoy it. It's not either/or.

 

I do appreciate the article, and it speaks to real issues many hsing mothers face. I think it's healthy for us to balance our lives and to take care of our whole selves.

Edited August 5, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Jayne J]

But vacuuming/scrubbing floors that are more square footage than you feel you need, or cleaning the endless badly-caked-on spatters from a kitchen's walls/cupboards/counters/appliances that are also more spread out than you really need, or feeling the mental pressure to mow the lawn more than every two or three weeks because of worry about what the retired neighbours think....this is what drives me crazy. It takes up mental space. But I still fight on, trying to change my thinking from worrying about what others think.

 

Colleen--been there. Still visit it occasionally:D. But what really helps me is this thought--if they don't like me for who I really am then they don't REALLY like me at all. And I'm OK with that. For me, the biggest battle was accepting that not everyone was going to like me. I think that we who deal with this particular problem have a hard time not being liked,(or maybe even admired). We want everyone to think we have it all together. I know I did. The question I needed to ask (and still need to ask frequently) is what is more important--that they are happy with me or that I am happy with me?

(GAK! Did I really just write that? Kinda touchy-feely eh? Ah well, I stand by it...) And what makes me happy is NOT my regulation length lawn. So, what makes happy? (by the way, it is not likely to be Don Quixote apparently. Start somewhere else...:D)

Fight on!!!!

[elw_miller]

I think most women, and mothers of daughters, might be able to relate to some of the issues presented in the book.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B001RS8L0K/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=133140011&s=digital-text

 

http://triplebind.com/reviews.html

 

This does look like a good book! It put me in mind of the conversation in Pride and Prejudice between Elizabeth Bennet, Mr. Darcy, Mr. Bingley and his sisters about what constitutes an accomplished woman:

 

Mr. Bingley: All young ladies are accomplished. They sing, they draw, they dance, speak French and German, cover screens and I know not what.

Mr. Darcy: But not half a dozen would satisfy my notion of an accomplished woman.

Miss Bingley: Oh, certainly. No woman can be really esteemed accomplished who does not also possess a certain something in her air, in her manner of walking, in the tone of her voice, her address and expressions.

Mr. Darcy: And to all this she must yet add something more substantial in the improvement of her mind by extensive reading.

Elizabeth Bennet: I'm no longer surprised at you knowing only six accomplished women, Mr Darcy. I rather wonder at your knowing any.

 

Even then, pressure from without to fit a certain mold...

 

I shall definitely take up your book recommendation. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Beth in SW WA]

I chose Atlas Shrugged this week over laundry! And it feels AWESOME!!

 

Timely article, Susan. It was a nice surprise in my mailbox last week. :)

 

Hi Colleen & gang! I'm coming back to play here after a much-needed break from all things hs'ing.

 

Great to "see" all of you here!

[elegantlion]

I feel this way about many subjects pertinent to homeschooling. I would like to be able to say "I am a homeschooling mom" without people making assumptions as to my personality, my religion, or my lifestyle.

 

The fact that I homeschool is not the measure of my worth as a human being.

 

:iagree: Isn't that the truth!

[MIch elle]

It goes along with this topic (read "Making time revisited 7/29/09): http://mentalmultivitamin.blogspot.com/

 

:D

[KristenS]

I'll admit, it was hard to learn to let go of housework. I'm inherently lazy in that area anyway :) but there were all these expectations ingrained in me from growing up. I love my mother dearly, but she was a natural at housekeeping back then, it seemed, and I'm not. I had to find my own way. And I'll say a small dose of Flylady helped too ... her CHAOS acronym for Can't Have Anyone Over Syndrome was perfect in helping me. That's how my mom lives now ... even though mostly her house is great, she has these chaos spots, and they keep her from being comfortable having visitors. I had to get past that ... small children and severe illness due to an anxiety disorder radically changed my life, and we had to make adjustments. I learned that an awful lot of chores can wait longer than I'd been taught. I learned easier ways to do things. I (gasp) even learned to ask for help. (My dh rocks.)

 

We also, my mom and I, came to an understanding about when she could criticize or give input on my house, and when she could not. Now that she knows I do value her knowledge about how to do things, she's not nearly so nitpicky when she visits, and we are both much happier.

 

I'd still rather read than clean, any day, but I'm getting better at finding the balance in both. I will say, I find some of those 'other extreme' homeschooling books to be inspiring ... when I grew up, housework was something to be endured so you wouldn't be embarrassed by your home, an unattainable ideal -- not a living arrangement that one could enjoy and take pride in and actually LIVE in. I was taught in school I could grow up to be anything ... but oddly being a homemaker and mother wasn't actually a subject that was encouraged. And yet here I am. :) (Just goes to show how much we do learn by osmosis growing up, and that we can self-educate the rest!)

 

And I call my mom all the time to ask her advice on all those things I didn't pay attention to growing up. :)

[Luanne]

I am surrounded by people (family, friends, even other homeschoolers) who think that learning (especially for females) ends when they turn 18 (unless they go to college between 18 and 22). Reading for anything other than pleasure and learning or studying of any other kind is totally foreign to them. I get badgered if my kitchen isn't clean or my lawn isn't green enough. No one cares what book I just finished or what I just learned in math or science. I wish I did have someone here who I could talk about things with besides how exciting the last Bronco game was (yes, I do like football) or whether or not it is going to rain this afternoon.

[Robin in Tx]

It goes along with this topic (read "Making time revisited 7/29/09): http://mentalmultivitamin.blogspot.com/

 

:D

 

I remember the first time she posted that and it really offended a lot of people with her line, "It's more than a little wearying to contemplate the lives of people who haven't the self-discipline to determine for themselves how to do what matters most."

 

That was quite an uproar, wasn't it? :)

 

I dont think it's a matter of not having the self discipline to do what matters most. Everyone takes care of what matters most to them. Instead, it's a matter of figuring out a way to do things you would like to do but are busy with other things that really DO matter more than reading a book. Everything on her list of "don'ts" are things most of us don't indulge in anyway. Homeschool moms I know who are struggling to find time to read and self educate aren't walking the malls, talking on the phone, reading junk mail... most have young children, family owned businesses, aging parents to care for, churches where they serve and husbands who are working longer hours for less money. I so appreciate SWB's approach to this topic, as she understands these pulls and demands, and reduces it to a simple solution that everyone can implement - spend 20 minutes in the morning before your day gets started. Do it first, even wake up a little earlier if you need. That is so much more usable than the suggestion to (for example) quit helping out at church or community. If I had to choose between pursuing intellectual growth over service, I'm afraid I'd never read a book!!

[Robin in Tx]

I regret this is getting lost in the conversation. Thought provoking. Interesting way to look at it...

[JennifersLost]

I think something everyone needs to remember is that everyone is in their own circumstances - and that these change.

 

When I look back to the years when I had four little kids....well, it was all chaos and mess all the time. I felt so inadequate, so worthless, so misunderstood and so incredibly judged all the time.

 

Now when I read these threads I sort of think, "Really? You don't have time to clean AND read? I do."

 

But I do because the kids got older. They got more independent. They started to help! I require less of myself. We don't have 10,000 legos all over the house every day.

 

The truth is, though, even back in those crazy days I was consuming several (if not many) books per week. I just felt a heck of a lot guiltier back then.

 

It is scary to write your own rules about housework, work, homeschooling and the life of the mind. But the only way to get better at defending all these boundaries is by doing it. It gets easier and easier.

[Rosie_0801]

Rosie, you should read Anna K., though; it is actually very lively reading.

 

 

Yep. Once this baby is weaned I'm going away for the weekend. Somewhere with a spa bath and I'm taking Anna K and a few punnets of strawberries. It's all planned :D

 

But what really helps me is this thought--if they don't like me for who I really am then they don't REALLY like me at all.

 

Mm. I came across a quote yesterday: "Don't make anyone a priority who considers you to be an option." I liked it. I know people who will argue until they are blue in the face that this is the wrong attitude to take, but I think it isn't.

 

It isn't just mothers who neglect their intellect. My brother is six years younger than me and considers me to be his cool friend. Me? The psycho, sleep deprived maniac who feels driven to eat chocolate before breakfast when she is most definitely against such behavior, is in love with a maths curriculum, plans veggie gardens for houses she doesn't have and thinks food history is the most exciting thing in the whole wide world?

 

Anyway, I think I'm getting off topic. It's the sleep deprivation, it makes me waffle.

 

;)

Rosie

[Jayne J]

Mm. I came across a quote yesterday: "Don't make anyone a priority who considers you to be an option." I liked it. I know people who will argue until they are blue in the face that this is the wrong attitude to take, but I think it isn't.

Rosie

 

 

As usual, someone already said it, and better too. But then again, that's not too hard to do...:lol: Glad to hear I am in good company.

[Colleen in NS]

Could you all come live near me? I am completely enjoying this thread. Thank you!

[wildflower]

I think the real issue is whether or not we're *choosing* to order our lives, or whether they're being ordered for us by outside pressures.

 

I definitely don't claim to have this figured out--I'm constantly re-evaluating and trying to resist outside pressures. And I like domestic detail. :001_smile: Bake a lot of cookies, clean up a lot of messes, muck a lot of stalls, supervise a lot of grammar exercises, find that fulfilling. I would *never* suggest that all domestic detail is trivial or unimportant.

 

But at home school conferences in particular, I see/hear so much directed at women, telling them that attending to the domestic details is the measure of their effectiveness as mothers/wives. Those of you who've been to the same conferences I've attended know what I'm talking about. It's very powerful. Responding to those voices--which can be overwhelmingly judgmental--can be reassuring. (Parenting and home schooling are, by their nature, tasks which we never feel we do well enough. If you don't identify with that "we," you're lucky and unusual.) But it also can be enslaving. I'd like home school parents--and mothers in particular--to know that those voices don't represent the entire home school community.

 

 

SWB

Thank you.

[Colleen in NS]

We are complete opposites. I watch people freaking out about a handful of dandelions and think, 'I like dandelions, they're free flowers.'

 

Oh, no, we are not - *I* do not care about the lawn, but we live in an area with a few retired couples, who have perfectly manicured properties. And apparently the previous owner of ours (retired) did, too. I'm sure he cringes if he ever drives by to look at his former house, the one he built 37 years ago! :lol: Dh just mows down the dandelions and they sprout right back up. We don't even try to fight them. I'm sure we have other weeds all over the grass, but I wouldn't know, because I just don't care. And dd picks them for me and puts them in a vase. :)

 

The fact that I homeschool is not the measure of my worth as a human being.

 

:)

 

I think sometimes it's more that household tasks are not respected in the way learning/reading is respected. These things get done because if you don't do them, you'll have to tackle roaches, not because it's something that's more important than reading or discussing big ideas with your children etc.

 

Oh, I understood that you weren't speaking for everyone in Boston - I just found it interesting, the general mindset you described. I'd like to take a bit of it myself. Thanks for the further explanation, too.

 

Hi Colleen & gang! I'm coming back to play here after a much-needed break from all things hs'ing.

 

Great to "see" all of you here!

 

Hi Beth! Nice to see you again, too!

 

"Don't make anyone a priority who considers you to be an option."

 

I like this quote, too. And I love your sense of humour - keep up the sleep deprivation, it makes you funny!:D

 

I should mention here that I recently gave away some of my "model homeschooler/Mom/wife/housekeeper" books. :D (actually, I just put them in my Salvation Army drop-off bag - they can decide whether or not to put them out for sale)

[wildflower]

Yep. Once this baby is weaned I'm going away for the weekend. Somewhere with a spa bath and I'm taking Anna K and a few punnets of strawberries. It's all planned :D

 

 

 

Mm. I came across a quote yesterday: "Don't make anyone a priority who considers you to be an option." I liked it. I know people who will argue until they are blue in the face that this is the wrong attitude to take, but I think it isn't.

 

It isn't just mothers who neglect their intellect. My brother is six years younger than me and considers me to be his cool friend. Me? The psycho, sleep deprived maniac who feels driven to eat chocolate before breakfast when she is most definitely against such behavior, is in love with a maths curriculum, plans veggie gardens for houses she doesn't have and thinks food history is the most exciting thing in the whole wide world?

 

Anyway, I think I'm getting off topic. It's the sleep deprivation, it makes me waffle.

 

;)

Rosie

 

Oh, Rosie. I think you are my long lost twin!

Everything you write makes me laugh at myself a bit.

I need to print out your quote & tape it my my (ahem) 'fridge! Maybe I can buy tons of items at the local crafts store to engrave a plaque that will never be completed.

BTW- I can forward many links for grey water systems, DH installs them.

[Rosie_0801]

I should mention here that I recently gave away some of my "model homeschooler/Mom/wife/housekeeper" books. :D (actually, I just put them in my Salvation Army drop-off bag - they can decide whether or not to put them out for sale)

 

I think it's a phase we need to go through. Once you've read all those books, you are very well educated on the topic and are able to decide which of those rules are worth following, and which ones deserve to be stuck in the op shop bag. It is good to be in a position where you are breaking rules deliberately, rather than because you don't know better. Choosing not to wash your windows is very different to not knowing how to wash your windows. Or mow the dandelions out of your lawn. You know, I read in a seed catelogue recently that you can get nearly your whole RDI of most vitamins by eating 4 young dandelion leaves each day. Now, for the first time in my life, I live somewhere with no dandelions!

 

I'm sorry, it's 8 hours 'til bed time. I'm going out so I won't feel drawn to staying here and posting waffle in this otherwise sensible thread...

 

Rosie- who has very dirty windows and isn't washing them because she can see they are there. Her dd pulled one out and climbed out recently, so she feels more comfortable being able to see at a glance that the windows are where she left them.

[Peela]

 

Rosie- who has very dirty windows and isn't washing them because she can see they are there. Her dd pulled one out and climbed out recently, so she feels more comfortable being able to see at a glance that the windows are where she left them.

 

Rosie, you are hilarious, and so practical too :)

[Sweetpeach]

This always happens to me -- don't log in for a week and a great thread takes off . . .

 

Way to go, Colleen in NS. Very thought-provoking thread . . .

[stripe]

I read in a seed catelogue recently that you can get nearly your whole RDI of most vitamins by eating 4 young dandelion leaves each day.

Great. I've successfully brainwashed my kids to wash their hands to get dandelion "milk" off their hands, and now you tell me this. I could have just had them snack while playing outside. Sigh.

[Jayne J]

Just a bit of an accomplishment here--due to the influence of this wonderful thread, last night after dinner, I left the kids with my husband, went upstairs, and read canto II if the Faerie Queen. I experienced a strange tingling in my head. I believe it was thought occuring. I liked it, and plan to continue neglecting my family ever once in while.

 

See what you all make me do?:tongue_smilie:

[dhudson]

:001_smile: Nice job!

[Rhondabee]

Thank you all for such a fascinating thread. I need to go back and read all the posts in careful detail but I don't have time!

 

it is important to cut wasted time. For me, for example, it's easy to waste chunks of time online for limited benefit.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I would also love to read all the responses below.... But, I'm going to the lake with my kids before our (way too short!) summer is over.

[Colleen in NS]

I think it's a phase we need to go through. Once you've read all those books, you are very well educated on the topic and are able to decide which of those rules are worth following, and which ones deserve to be stuck in the op shop bag. It is good to be in a position where you are breaking rules deliberately, rather than because you don't know better. Choosing not to wash your windows is very different to not knowing how to wash your windows. Or mow the dandelions out of your lawn.

 

YES!!! Thank you for putting that into words!!!!

 

You know, I read in a seed catelogue recently that you can get nearly your whole RDI of most vitamins by eating 4 young dandelion leaves each day. Now, for the first time in my life, I live somewhere with no dandelions!

 

Rosie- who has very dirty windows and isn't washing them because she can see they are there. Her dd pulled one out and climbed out recently, so she feels more comfortable being able to see at a glance that the windows are where she left them.

 

Mmmmm, salad for supper tonight! We've got plenty of free dandelion greens!

 

:lol::lol::lol: about the windows. Good reasoning!

 

This always happens to me -- don't log in for a week and a great thread takes off . . .

 

Way to go, Colleen in NS. Very thought-provoking thread . . .

 

What are you doing up so early?? (I just happened to notice the time you posted) :D

 

Just a bit of an accomplishment here--due to the influence of this wonderful thread, last night after dinner, I left the kids with my husband, went upstairs, and read canto II if the Faerie Queen. I experienced a strange tingling in my head. I believe it was thought occuring. I liked it, and plan to continue neglecting my family ever once in while.

 

See what you all make me do?:tongue_smilie:

 

Way to go! :lol::lol: about the bolded part.

[phathui5]

Actually, I don't think she was saying that mundane tasks drain us of our intellectual appetites. I think she was saying that some people get so busy with their daily tasks that they don't take the time, or that they don't believe they can do it.

 

I was at her talk to the Virginia conference last month and that's what I got out of it. Not that the routines of life are what keep us from learning and growing, but that we need to prioritize time for study, both for our own sakes and also so that we are an intellectual resource for our families.

[Colleen]

 

I think the real issue is whether or not we're *choosing* to order our lives, or whether they're being ordered for us by outside pressures.

No one can order things for us without our permission.

But at home school conferences in particular, I see/hear so much directed at women, telling them that attending to the domestic details is the measure of their effectiveness as mothers/wives. Those of you who've been to the same conferences I've attended know what I'm talking about. It's very powerful. Responding to those voices--which can be overwhelmingly judgmental--can be reassuring. (Parenting and home schooling are, by their nature, tasks which we never feel we do well enough. If you don't identify with that "we," you're lucky and unusual.) But it also can be enslaving. I'd like home school parents--and mothers in particular--to know that those voices don't represent the entire home school community.

I can't wrap my mind around why people so esteem "experts" to the extent that they buy into their mantra, lock, stock, and barrel. Or why our society is so consumed by this self-help, all-or-nothing mentality, e.g. "If I heard it a conference/read it in a book, I will embrace it as Truth (until such time as I enter my next phase...)".

I would like to be able to say "I am a homeschooling mom" without people making assumptions as to my personality, my religion, or my lifestyle.

Do the assumptions even matter, though? If you have any real interest in the person (or vice versa) it should become clear in short order that the stereotyping, labels, and assumptions are meaningless.

 

[Audrey]

Do the assumptions even matter, though? If you have any real interest in the person (or vice versa) it should become clear in short order that the stereotyping, labels, and assumptions are meaningless.

 

 

Yes and no. Yes, they do matter because it can become quite uncomfortable and sometimes downright painful to have to correct someone of their assumptions.

 

No, because generally.... I don't give a d*mn what what 99.999999% of the population thinks of me anyway. :D

[Colleen]

 

Yes and no. Yes, they do matter because it can become quite uncomfortable and sometimes downright painful to have to correct someone of their assumptions.

I imagine this is particularly true for people who aren't Christian, since it's generally assumed that homeschoolers are Christian. Even in my case, as a Christian, faith has no significant bearing on why I homeschool yet people sometimes assume otherwise. My "assumption corrections" are less-related to homeschooling, though, than they are to other areas of my life, e.g. politics.

No, because generally.... I don't give a d*mn what what 99.999999% of the population thinks of me anyway. :D

Yeah, that's why I said the assumptions don't matter.:lol: But you're right ~ they do matter at least insofar as we'd like people to have a general understanding of where we're coming from. But I've so given up on that. Some people will never be able to grasp my mix, kwim?

 

[Colleen in NS]

I can't wrap my mind around why people so esteem "experts" to the extent that they buy into their mantra, lock, stock, and barrel.

 

Can you wrap your mind around some of my past reasons? Insecurity. Lack of previous education in thinking skills. Growing up situations. Personality. Desire to please. Lack of experience in sorting out multitudes of ideas. To name a few.

 

No one can order things for us without our permission.

 

Some of us *have* let outside pressures order us. I think her point was that *we* can choose to order things *ourselves.* People like me like to have that pointed out sometimes.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[Rosie_0801]

Some people think they are supposed to let others order them. A relative actually told me I had no right to bring my kids up with my own values and morals. Apparently, something so important ought not be left to one person. Society needs to take care of that, so they can fit in. An interesting point of view, don't you think?

 

Also, being told to think laterally over and over and over in my childhood, and to be open minded, when I thought I was being open minded, had me entering adulthood without much faith in my own ability to think properly.

 

A person who has no faith in their own intellect, for whatever reason, has no choice but to take the expert's word. This expert has letters after their name; that's good and meaningful, isn't it? Everyone else they know is paying attention to this expert, so that must mean something, huh?

 

The moral to the story is that we as parents and educators must teach our kids to think, how to check the quality of their thoughts, and be very gentle in ironing out their funny logic. The better they are at checking their own thoughts, the less ironing we need to do, I think. It's less humiliating and paralysing to work through your own thoughts and amend than it is to have your parents tell you you're being immature.

 

Rosie