Unschooling - they do learn!

[IndigoGlitter]

We haven't been doing any consistent formal homeschooling in about 2 years.

 

That isn't to say we haven't learned, just nothing formal. Even being home.

 

This takes me to my story...

 

My 7 year old hasn't really had much formal math training. Though he does like it. We do it when the mood strikes us. Well we were at the community rec room and they have a bingo board on the wall. He counted all the way to 75 (would have gone higher but the bingo board only goes to 75) all on his own. I have never told him (again formally!) to count that high.

 

I was just a proud mama. I worry they don't learn. But they do!

[Ellie]

We haven't been doing any consistent formal homeschooling in about 2 years.

 

That isn't to say we haven't learned, just nothing formal. Even being home.

 

This takes me to my story...

 

My 7 year old hasn't really had much formal math training. Though he does like it. We do it when the mood strikes us. Well we were at the community rec room and they have a bingo board on the wall. He counted all the way to 75 (would have gone higher but the bingo board only goes to 75) all on his own. I have never told him (again formally!) to count that high.

 

I was just a proud mama. I worry they don't learn. But they do!

 

Indeed they do. :-)

[Guest]

Birds fly.

Fish swim.

Children learn.

 

:)

[maize]

I don't do much formal schooling in the early years. Children are, indeed, both eager and able to learn a great deal without it.

 

We gradually incorporate more formal education as they get older, that also has advantages and can facilitate even greater learning.

[justasque]

We haven't been doing any consistent formal homeschooling in about 2 years.

 

That isn't to say we haven't learned, just nothing formal. Even being home.

 

This takes me to my story...

 

My 7 year old hasn't really had much formal math training. Though he does like it. We do it when the mood strikes us. Well we were at the community rec room and they have a bingo board on the wall. He counted all the way to 75 (would have gone higher but the bingo board only goes to 75) all on his own. I have never told him (again formally!) to count that high.

 

I was just a proud mama. I worry they don't learn. But they do!

 

My experience is that bright children, in an enriched environment, can learn up to around 3rd-4th grade math without much formal instruction.  However, at that point, without knowing formal algorithms, and faced with problems that are more complex and/or harder to conceptualize, they do not have the tools to solve them and thus they cannot move on any farther with learning higher level math. Your son sounds like he enjoys math and takes to it naturally.  Please understand that he can only go so far on his own, without at least informal instruction.  Some people say that kids can catch up with math when they decide they need it.  In my observation, the people who say this often either do not have personal experience with this (their children are too young to have hit that point), have older children who have life-skills-level math but not enough to leave the door open for any of the STEM fields, or have paid a private tutor a pretty penny to get their child up to grade level.   I have also seen people seriously underestimate the amount of work required for a student who has done no formal math in the past to cover 3-4 years worth of material in a year or so; the student will need to put in 1-2 hours a day on material that they could have covered in 15-20 minutes a day had they spread it out over more time.  

 

SO - your child is young, and has an affinity for math - great!  If you can do just a little bit more to feed this interest - 15-20 minutes, 3 days a week with interesting materials and/or math games - you will help him to build a foundation that will serve him well in later years, and keep doors open to a wide variety of careers where a fundamental understanding of math is essential. 

[abba12]

Maybe I'll be flamed for saying this, but.... while I am very glad your child is picking up on things and making progress, I don't know that I'd really call a 2nd grader counting to a number less than 100 an achievement or thing to be proud of. Don't they learn to count to 100 in K? Not that I put a lot of stock in being 'at grade level', the grade levels are arbitrary, I get it, that's fine. But is a 2nd grader teaching himself to do something most K-aged kids can do an achievement? Only in as much as he learned it without help or support. Most bright kids can learn basic math without help eventually, because it is regularly encountered. I don't think being two years behind the average child is a great argument for unschoolers learning.

 

Edited to Add: I am not anti-unschooling, I know unschoolers who went on to be quite successful. I just don't know if your 7yo mastering a basic 5yo skill is necessarily great proof that 'they do learn'.  

[mamiof5]

Agree with last post, they do learn to count usually much earlier. Our oldest attended an "interest led" based school during K and 1st grade...by the end of 1st she was notoriously behind than other kids her age. Unschooling doesn't work for us.

[8filltheheart]

Maybe I'll be flamed for saying this, but.... while I am very glad your child is picking up on things and making progress, I don't know that I'd really call a 2nd grader counting to a number less than 100 an achievement or thing to be proud of. Don't they learn to count to 100 in K? Not that I put a lot of stock in being 'at grade level', the grade levels are arbitrary, I get it, that's fine. But is a 2nd grader teaching himself to do something most K-aged kids can do an achievement? Only in as much as he learned it without help or support. Most bright kids can learn basic math without help eventually, because it is regularly encountered. I don't think being two years behind the average child is a great argument for unschoolers learning.

 

Edited to Add: I am not anti-unschooling, I know unschoolers who went on to be quite successful. I just don't know if your 7yo mastering a basic 5yo skill is necessarily great proof that 'they do learn'.

These are similar to my thoughts. I am not an unschooler, but I am an intentional minimal educator with my young children. My kids have never done any pre-school academics. K is about 45-60 mins. 1st is 1-1 1/2 hrs, 2nd is 2-2 1/2 hrs. Recognizing their numbers through 100 is a skill mastered within the few weeks of K. I have much different objectives for 7.

[IndigoGlitter]

And why do they need to count earlier? He never showed much interest in it before hand. Should I have forced him to it? With consternation on my part of frustration on his part?

 

Who made the rule that a child of 5 or 6 is supposed to count higher? Who made the rule? I didn't make it, so I don't need to follow it.

 

If you don't agree that is fine but there is no need to rain on another's parade because you buy into the whole must-learn-X-by-the-time-they-are-Y.

 

That is the beauty of unschooling. You learn at their pace. Not some obscure pace that society has placed on certain age groups.

 

I appreciate your sentiment but that wasn't the point of my post.

[8filltheheart]

And why do they need to count earlier? He never showed much interest in it before hand. Should I have forced him to it? With consternation on my part of frustration on his part?

 

Who made the rule that a child of 5 or 6 is supposed to count higher? Who made the rule? I didn't make it, so I don't need to follow it.

 

If you don't agree that is fine but there is no need to rain on another's parade because you buy into the whole must-learn-X-by-the-time-they-are-Y.

 

That is the beauty of unschooling. You learn at their pace. Not some obscure pace that society has placed on certain age groups.

 

I appreciate your sentiment but that wasn't the point of my post.

It is natural for children to count earlier. It doesn't even take formal schooling to learn to count. It takes everyday interaction, using money, playing games (chutes and ladders goes to 100). It is just everyday life.

 

Fwiw, I have had a 6 yr old discover multiplication through Legos and cooking and observing the world. He realized that rows of number consistently always equaled the same thing. He asked me one day while making cookies if I knew that 5 rows of 4 cookies always meant there were 20 cookies. He told me he realized it when he was using his Lego blocks that if he had x number of 6 blocks, there were always y number of bumps, etc. Would he have made that realization without at least a minimal understanding of numbers? Maybe, but I am glad he had the foundation. He loves math. He was taking alg by age 10. His days of academics were very, very short (approx 1 hr per grade level when little). The rest of his time was spent doing whatever he wanted. He is now pursing a double major in math and physics.

 

Fwiw, knowing your audience helps in anticipating the response.

[HomeAgain]

And why do they need to count earlier? He never showed much interest in it before hand. Should I have forced him to it? With consternation on my part of frustration on his part?

 

Who made the rule that a child of 5 or 6 is supposed to count higher? Who made the rule? I didn't make it, so I don't need to follow it.

 

If you don't agree that is fine but there is no need to rain on another's parade because you buy into the whole must-learn-X-by-the-time-they-are-Y.

 

That is the beauty of unschooling. You learn at their pace. Not some obscure pace that society has placed on certain age groups.

 

I appreciate your sentiment but that wasn't the point of my post.

 

Nobody made that rule.  BUT, counting is a 3-6yo skill that paves the way for manipulation of those digits: understanding place value, addition, subtraction, skip counting..

 

I do understand the point of your post: that he learned something he was never explicitly taught.  That is good.  It shows initiative on his part.  However, having lagging skills in an area you admit he likes but you choose not to spend time on/initiate time with is going to be discouraging fast.

[justasque]

 

 

 

And why do they need to count earlier? He never showed much interest in it before hand. Should I have forced him to it? With consternation on my part of frustration on his part?

 

Who made the rule that a child of 5 or 6 is supposed to count higher? Who made the rule? I didn't make it, so I don't need to follow it.

 

If you don't agree that is fine but there is no need to rain on another's parade because you buy into the whole must-learn-X-by-the-time-they-are-Y.

 

That is the beauty of unschooling. You learn at their pace. Not some obscure pace that society has placed on certain age groups.

 

I appreciate your sentiment but that wasn't the point of my post.

You said "That is the beauty of unschooling. You learn at their pace. Not some obscure pace that society has placed on certain age groups." I would agree that getting to move at a different pace than the typical kid is a huge advantage of homeschooling in general. We can tailor what we do to the specific child(ren) we are raising.

 

Children vary widely in their natural interests and abilities. They also inhabit different environments. When it comes to math, some children delight in playing around with numbers, and others aren't as interested. Some kids live with adults who are engineers or accountants or scientists for whom numbers - playing with them, working with them, noticing them in daily life - come up all the time. Others live with caring, loving adults who may be less likely to recognize the opportunities to point out and dialog about math-related concepts in daily life. These factors combine to influence how much a particular child can pick up on their own, and how far down the math path they can go without formal instruction or practice.

 

Obviously, there is no rule as to when a child needs to be able to count to a specific number, or have other specific math skills. And children will vary widely in their path through the world of mathematics. However, as a parent, I have found it useful to have a basic understanding of when certain skills are typically introduced or encountered. I find that this informs how I will mentor my children. As an example, if I know that a young child is at the level where it is typical to be working on one-to-one correspondence (the ability to match one of something with one of something else, a pre-counting skill), I might give that child a handful of spoons and ask they they put one spoon next to every bowl on the table. I'm not forcing this, rather, I'm quietly observing how the child approaches the task - does it appear easy, or hard for them? Does the child seem to understand what he is being asked to do? If not, I might model it for him, or do it with him. If he's really not getting it, I may dial down my target skill to something earlier in the typical learning sequence, keeping an eye out for opportunities to introduce and work with that earlier skill. Is he attempting to match things up, but not quite getting it right? If so, I may find more opportunities to suggest he do things that practice this skill. Is he matching things up just fine? If so, I may do a little research on what skills typically come after one-to-one correspondence, so that I can provide opportunities for the child to work with them.

 

My goal is not to keep a particular child on an arbitrary time line of achievements. Rather, it's to understand the typical sequence in which a child learns certain skills, so that I can have a rough idea of where my child falls on that sequence. That way, I can identify and take advantage of opportunities to interact with my child as they encounter a situation where they can practice a certain skill, I can strew items or provide experiences that encourage the child to practice that skill, and I can note when my child is ready to move on to learning higher level skills. I also can be aware of whether my child is on a "typical" path, and keep an eye out for any learning disabilities (or talents) that may reveal themselves, because they might lead me to make changes to the environment in which the child learns.

 

I think it's great that your child has learned to count so high! I encourage you to seek out ways you and he can play with other math concepts and skills, so he can continue to experience the beauty and excitement that is math! That doesn't have to mean formal instruction.  Continue to find ways to offer math-related learning opportunities, continue to discuss the math you find in daily life, continue to be aware of his progress and what he might be interested in next. There should be no need for force, consternation, or frustration. If you encounter these things, back off, and think about why they might be occurring, and adjust accordingly.

 

At the same time, be aware of where your child's skills are compared to their age-peers. I'm not saying you need to be a slave to the public school timeline, but you should, as the adult in charge of your child's education, have an honest and accurate idea of his progress. Your child will eventually leave your nest and make his own way in the world. Being aware of his skills and abilities as you take this journey together will help you to mentor him - to encourage him to take advantage of opportunities that are a good fit for him, and to know when to suggest that he consider doing some work in a particular area that may be holding him back from his dreams.

 

I am offering this advice based on what I've learned in many years of doing math with many kids. Please, like any advice, take what seems like a good fit for you, your child, and your family, and leave the rest.

[Jean in Newcastle]

And why do they need to count earlier? He never showed much interest in it before hand. Should I have forced him to it? With consternation on my part of frustration on his part?

 

Who made the rule that a child of 5 or 6 is supposed to count higher? Who made the rule? I didn't make it, so I don't need to follow it.

 

If you don't agree that is fine but there is no need to rain on another's parade because you buy into the whole must-learn-X-by-the-time-they-are-Y.

 

That is the beauty of unschooling. You learn at their pace. Not some obscure pace that society has placed on certain age groups.

 

I appreciate your sentiment but that wasn't the point of my post.

Teaching kids that age is so easy to do without it being a power struggle.  Play store with them.  Have a real garage sale.  Have "I Spy" games where you spy certain numbers (they are all around us - on street signs, sale signs, in magazines. . . )  Count out beans for the bean soup you are making together.  The successful unschoolers I know are not hands-off.  They are bursting with fun things they do with their kids that their kids want to do and enjoy.  

 

If the point of your post was to celebrate your child.  Then,  :hurray: .  I hope you see a lot more learning going on every day.  I'm always for kids learning and exploring their world, including the world of numbers.  

 

If the point of your post was to set unschooling up as "the" educational method to emulate then . . .   well, what can I say, I do think it is great that he can count to 75 but it doesn't put unschooling in a great light.  

[MomatHWTK]

I'm not sure my 5 y.o. can count to 100, I've not bothered to check.  He's learning multiplication because he likes it. Couting to 100, I'd consider that more of a rote memorization skill and none of my kids really do well with those.  The English language is said to be one of the more difficult for teaching counting because of our number naming system.  So I don't know that it is easy to learn unless the parent activity counts with the child or introduces the concept, by play or otherwise. 

 

I don't unschool, but I try not to measure my child's progress on what children in X grade are doing because it just doesn't fit who we are.  I am aware that compared to ps kids each of my children are "behind" in one area or another, but as I tell anyone who asks "If they don't know it, it's because their teacher hasn't taught it."

[8filltheheart]

I'm not sure my 5 y.o. can count to 100, I've not bothered to check. He's learning multiplication because he likes it. Couting to 100, I'd consider that more of a rote memorization skill and none of my kids really do well with those. The English language is said to be one of the more difficult for teaching counting because of our number naming system. So I don't know that it is easy to learn unless the parent activity counts with the child or introduces the concept, by play or otherwise.

 

Actually counting is very pattern based. With the exception of eleven, twelve, and thir/fif all of the names are very regular. If a child understands the sequencing of 0-9 and the relationship of increasing the 9 by one more means grouping into a 10, there isn't even any memorizing required other than the corresponding -ty name.

[albeto.]

And why do they need to count earlier? He never showed much interest in it before hand. Should I have forced him to it? With consternation on my part of frustration on his part?

 

Who made the rule that a child of 5 or 6 is supposed to count higher? Who made the rule? I didn't make it, so I don't need to follow it.

 

If you don't agree that is fine but there is no need to rain on another's parade because you buy into the whole must-learn-X-by-the-time-they-are-Y.

 

That is the beauty of unschooling. You learn at their pace. Not some obscure pace that society has placed on certain age groups.

 

I appreciate your sentiment but that wasn't the point of my post.

 

Hi 'glitter. I'm another unschooler. One of the few here. I've got older kids now (one decided to go to the local high school, prepared herself for that, is now in college, another in high school). We're "radical" unschoolers, whatever that means. I use that word to refer to the fact that we apply the philosophy of unschooling, the way I understand it, to all areas of life. That is to say, we don't teach non academic skills by lessons (ie, apply rules or social roles) any more than we teach academic skills by lessons. I believe humans learn through play, and unschooling can work for just about any child, given the optimal environment. 

 

It's that optimal environment that's the stickler, and that seems to me to be the intent of the comments offered you. I don't see these folks as challenging your reasons or your intentions, but in offering you practical ideas in which you can enrich the environment in your home. I believe they are doing this because they have a genuine interest in helping home educators optimize their children's learning experiences, even if the styles of those experiences aren't similar. I have to admit, counting to 75 at that age as a source of pride and example took me off guard, too. It seems to me that once a child figures out the pattern of counting by ones and memorizing the teens, applying the pattern of tens and ones falls right into place. Establishing this pattern takes practice. When my kids were young, we'd tell each other jokes like, "Wanna see me count to a hundred in three second? 1, 2, skip a few, 99, 100!" Then we'd both count to one hundred just to show the world we could. At first the child would be muttering along, eventually s/he figured it out with few prompts, then they'd show me independent mastery.

 

I agree with you that learning need not be forced, but no one in this thread is talking about forcing. Instead, they're offering ideas to help you enrich the environment in which your child learns. The more opportunity one has to learn, the more learning they will do, and playing games that rely heavily on math skills is no more forcing a child to learn than playing tag is forcing them to balance their bodies at high speeds while turning sharply. There are, I think, great reasons for approaching learning outside the parameters of scheduled lessons, but if one doesn't provide an enriched learning experience, the knowledge the child gains may not be sufficient for achieving the goals they may decide to pursue later. There's also a matter of having general knowledge as opposed to specific skills in one area of interest. The more one knows, the more empowered one is, the less likely they will fall victim to trickery and deceit, and the more autonomy they can embrace. 

 

I find your defense rather simple, and not really thought out. Perhaps you have more information than you're sharing, and that's fine, I don't mean to demand a defense from you. It's just that when I hear these reasons in general, a red flag goes up for me and I immediately wonder if the person is familiar with the mechanics of unschooling, or if they're relying on others to be right. As a parent of an unschooled teenager, I will say that this is a very precarious place to be. It's one thing to find the ideals appealing, but quite another to watch a child prepare to launch himself out into the world independently knowing his peers have studied math, science, language arts, history, etc, formally for years. "Play" looks a lot different for a teenage than it does for younger child, but if their environment is stagnant, there's only so much opportunity from which to learn. You may change your mind as your child gets older, too. I think most people do. Anyway, the case for increasing access to knowledge is plentiful, and I think you might find a lot of resources on this forum that you can adapt at home. 

[8filltheheart]

albeto. That was a wonderful post.

[mamiof5]

Totally agree, couldn't have been said any better.

[IndigoGlitter]

My problem is (was) that I was just trying to say without formal training he learned to count.

 

I wasn't expecting people to say "Wow he should be counting much farther, he isn't doing what he is supposed to as opposed to my kid". Which was the feeling I got from the previous posts.

 

Perhaps he is "behind" from his peers. You don't think I don't know that? We don't start our official school year (I am incorporating some formal work this year) until Thursday. I have been working with him on a few things and he is picking it up at an amazing pace. I think he is fine. Rather than have him struggle to remember at 5 or 6, because trust me, I did try and he struggled, now he can do it with ease.

 

Perhaps my argument was simple. Sometimes simple is all you need. Again, it just seemed that all I was hearing was he should be doing more and doing better and my question was why? Why should he? By what rules and what standards? You can bet by the time it is all said and done all things will be equal. I don't see why a child has to be or should be doing particular things at a particular age regardless of what other do.Even the Bluedorns say that math is fine to wait on "Ten-year-olds are perfectly capable of jumping right into a sixth-grade math textbook (such as Saxon Math 65) with no previous experience with math workbooks or textbooks. Skipping grades K-5 in math will in no way hinder your child's success in math." That isn't to say I follow the Bluedorns teachings, I don't, but if they say math can wait then I think it can wait.

 

So should I have done more math with him earlier? Maybe. Is it going to hinder him later? Absolutely not. My whole point of my original post is that he managed to learn to count on his own without much formal training. It's celebrated when a 4 year old teaches themselves to read but since he is older and taught himself to count it doesn't need celebration. Shoot, even adults in their 40's get their GED and it is celebrated. Should they have gotten it sooner? Imagine telling a 45 year old person, oh, that's nice you finally got your GED, that should have happened when you were 17-18! I am just making a point. Any milestone should be celebrated regardless of age without someone coming down and saying, jeez so late? What took them so long. That is where I am coming from. It just burst my happy bubble.

 

I'll just tuck my tail between my legs and keep going.

[maize]

Eh, you are I believe fairly new to the forums. We're an opinionated bunch, keeps life interesting, ya know.

 

I am curious as to why you bring up the Bluedorns; I've read their book and liked bits of it, but they are really not experts on education or child development. They have opinions, they espouse certain methods, those methods will work for some children and not for others. Because no method works for every child.

 

If you want my opinion, I will say that I approach things in a way that is similar to what you seem to be doing, with little formal academics in the primary years, more as children mature. So far that is working for my family.

[justasque]

.."Ten-year-olds are perfectly capable of jumping right into a sixth-grade math textbook (such as Saxon Math 65) with no previous experience with math workbooks or textbooks. Skipping grades K-5 in math will in no way hinder your child's success in math." That isn't to say I follow the Bluedorns teachings, I don't, but if they say math can wait then I think it can wait.

---

 

 

Indigo, I am happy for your son!  What a delight to play around with numbers - "getting" how counting works is a great thing for any child, and worth celebrating.  Different children will get there at different ages, of course, kids are not all the same, nor are their environments or access to knowledgeable mentors.  You are wise to celebrate your child's achievements, even if they are "behind" some of his age peers.

 

Because all kids learn at different rates, in my experience, SOME ten year olds will be capable of jumping right into a 6th grade math textbook with no previous experience, and some will NOT.  In between those two extremes, many of the kids who attempt this will need considerable help from a skilled math tutor/mentor, which usually does not come cheap.  The tutor will have to create a custom-designed transition curriculum to move the child quickly through the grade 1-5 material, while ensuring understanding of each step.  The student will have to devote an hour or more a day to doing homework, in addition to the tutoring time.  This transition may take a full year, with another year of support needed as the child moves into the middle school material.  Expect to pay at least $40/hour of tutoring time, for several hours a week, as a minimum.  Because the tutor will have to do considerable prep work between sessions, and because they will need to be someone who is experienced with custom curriculum creation, anticipate that they may charge quite a bit more than that.  Again, kids are all different.  In my experience, a few math-y kids will not need this kind of support (and a few math-y parents can provide it on their own).  A few kids will need much, much more support and take considerably longer.  Most kids will be in the middle, capable of making the jump from K to 6th in two years, if they are given the structure and support to do so, and if they are willing to put in the work needed.  A rich background in conceptual math experiences will help lay a good foundation for this path.

 

I am not judging.  I don't know who the Bluedorns are or what they teach. I hope they have explained that many students will need the services of a tutor/mentor to help them to make the kind of jump the Bluedorns are suggesting.  If your child is of the math-y sort, and you are providing a math-enriched environment tailored to his ongoing progress, he may very well be fine until 5th grade.  But please continue to keep a mentor's eye on his progress, and be prepared to provide (pay for) the help he may need to achieve his goals and dreams as he continues his learning.

[HomeAgain]

10yos who lag in conceptual understanding of number manipulation will have a hard time.  I used to tutor math.  The children who didn't get it through lack of education and watched their peers skip ahead had the toughest time with the mental block to math.  The children who were simply behind and tried, and were given as many ways as possible to understand were the ones who pushed through.  They may never be astrophysicists, but they will never feel like basic math is above them.

 

Here are some wonderful resources for keeping math fun, unschool-y, and at a child's pace.  We adore all of them in our home:

Family Math (activities and ideas for all the basics)

Anno (many different books under this name)

Sir Cumference (easy to make or find online supplements.  The game Cathedral is a great addition, we've found, to the area and perimeter books)
I Hate Mathematics (grades 4+, or when they have a good understanding of multiplication)
Usborne's This Is Not A Math Book (art and math collide)
Donald In Mathmagic Land (video on youtube)
The Code (more adult version of DiML, a short series on Netflix looking at numbers represented in the world through sound, architecture, and nature - this prompted bringing out the Sir Cumference books in our house)
 

[Jean in Newcastle]

If you said (as I have) my child has struggled with xyz and has shown significant progress, you would have gotten a much different response. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

PS - the Bluedorns do not advocate no math at all in the early years.  They advocate "living math" instead of formal instruction with a textbook.  Up thread you will find lots of examples people gave you on how to provide an environment for "living math".  It doesn't mean doing nothing until the child picks it up on their own.  

[Sk8ermaiden]

I am sorry you feel deflated and that you did not get the response you wanted. 

 

I suspect, that had you come in and said that your son had math struggles but he just mastered reading his numbers to 75 and you are so excited! You likely would have gotten a lot of positive rah-rah posts in response. And maybe some well-meaning curriculum suggestions because we just can't hep ourselves. ;)

 

[Guest]

 

Eh, you are I believe fairly new to the forums. We're an opinionated bunch, keeps life interesting, ya know.

 

 

 

 

Yea, what she said; don't let it bring you down.

 

It's a big internet. If your time is limited, you probably want to look elsewhere for unschooling advice and pat yourself on the back for asking the right question to get a quick answer here without hurting anyone else's feelings or accidentally insulting their educational choices.

[justasque]

...

 

Here are some wonderful resources for keeping math fun, unschool-y, and at a child's pace.  We adore all of them in our home:

 

Family Math (activities and ideas for all the basics)

Anno (many different books under this name)

Sir Cumference (easy to make or find online supplements.  The game Cathedral is a great addition, we've found, to the area and perimeter books)

I Hate Mathematics (grades 4+, or when they have a good understanding of multiplication)

Usborne's This Is Not A Math Book (art and math collide)

Donald In Mathmagic Land (video on youtube)

The Code (more adult version of DiML, a short series on Netflix looking at numbers represented in the world through sound, architecture, and nature - this prompted bringing out the Sir Cumference books in our house)

 

 

I second all of these excellent suggestions.  Family Math in particular may be a good fit.  I also like Cuisinaire rods used in various games and puzzles, ditto for Tangrams, pattern blocks, and attribute blocks.  Many board and card games have mathematical components - anything with dice or play money is usually a good choice.  Cooking can involve counting and measurements - I like to use a 1-cup measure with the 1/2 and 1/4 cups marked.  Building things - either with LEGO or other construction toys, or with various bits and pieces you find around the house - can also be helpful.

 

Check your local library - they may have many books that can suggest activities, and some libraries even lend materials such as pattern blocks.  If they don't have something, they can often get it through inter-library loan.  And of course there are many math games online nowadays.  

 

Talk about math together, wherever you encounter it in your day!

[albeto.]

Perhaps my argument was simple. Sometimes simple is all you need. Again, it just seemed that all I was hearing was he should be doing more and doing better and my question was why? Why should he? By what rules and what standards? You can bet by the time it is all said and done all things will be equal.

 

Why can we bet this?

 

I don't mean to put you on the spot, and I have a completely different impression of what you're looking for here, but this is the kind of red flag I was talking about. Who says this? Based on what? Are you willing to stake your kid's future on this claim without any evidence whatsoever? Would you want to know if reality does not generally conform to this expectation? Does it matter if your belief is right? 

 

I think it's helpful to share details such as talking about a naturally struggling learner. I think you'll get different responses, more helpful, appropriate responses, tailored to your needs. And that's what people here are trying to do - tailor make a helpful reply, whether or not it's a comforting reply. 

 

Btw, I do hope you stick around. I enjoy talking about unschooling for personal reasons. I find that every once in a while someone comes out of the woodworks and articulates a beautiful explanation or illustration of what is possible. I live for those posts, lol! But I come here for the ideas as well. WTM forum is a rich resource for informal ideas, as well as formal. Also, what you share and how people respond will be helpful for others. I hope it's hopeful for you, and I hope you come back with more specifics so we can do that. 

[go_go_gadget]

My problem is (was) that I was just trying to say without formal training he learned to count.

 

I wasn't expecting people to say "Wow he should be counting much farther, he isn't doing what he is supposed to as opposed to my kid". Which was the feeling I got from the previous posts.

 

Perhaps he is "behind" from his peers. You don't think I don't know that? We don't start our official school year (I am incorporating some formal work this year) until Thursday. I have been working with him on a few things and he is picking it up at an amazing pace. I think he is fine. Rather than have him struggle to remember at 5 or 6, because trust me, I did try and he struggled, now he can do it with ease.

 

Perhaps my argument was simple. Sometimes simple is all you need. Again, it just seemed that all I was hearing was he should be doing more and doing better and my question was why? Why should he? By what rules and what standards? You can bet by the time it is all said and done all things will be equal. I don't see why a child has to be or should be doing particular things at a particular age regardless of what other do.Even the Bluedorns say that math is fine to wait on "Ten-year-olds are perfectly capable of jumping right into a sixth-grade math textbook (such as Saxon Math 65) with no previous experience with math workbooks or textbooks. Skipping grades K-5 in math will in no way hinder your child's success in math." That isn't to say I follow the Bluedorns teachings, I don't, but if they say math can wait then I think it can wait.

 

Regarding the first bolded bit: this forum isn't an intuitive choice of audience for any other reaction than that one. Perhaps you're newer here, but this isn't an unschooling forum. This forum is primarily intended for classical educators, and classical education isn't exactly the opposite of unschooling, but it's well past the middle of spectrum. You'd be more likely to get the reaction you were looking for on an unschooling-specific forum.

 

Regarding the second bolded bit: be very skeptical of this claim. Sixth-grade math assumes fluency with all of elementary math, including operations with fractions and decimals, ratios, long division and multiplication, etc. Saxon 65 doesn't teach these concepts: it assumes students already know them (which is why Saxon K-4 exists). Is it possible to learn all of those concepts without workbooks and textbooks? Absolutely. Is that easy to do? Very much not. From what you wrote, it sounds like someone's giving you the impression that elementary math can be learned by osmosis, and that can certainly be true up until long division and multiplication, but after that, the only students who can learn math without using a curriculum are either those with parents who have a strong enough background to replace a curriculum, or students who are so exceptionally talented that they would learn it in a vacuum. 

[IndigoGlitter]

If you said (as I have) my child has struggled with xyz and has shown significant progress, you would have gotten a much different response. 

 

True... very true, thank you. I honestly didn't even think of that. Aren't y'all supposed to be psychic? ;)

 

PS - the Bluedorns do not advocate no math at all in the early years.  They advocate "living math" instead of formal instruction with a textbook.  Up thread you will find lots of examples people gave you on how to provide an environment for "living math".  It doesn't mean doing nothing until the child picks it up on their own.  

 

Again true, however the fact he can count and he can add and subtract (which no I didn't originally say because I wasn't talking about that) means he is getting some learning. I cook and go to the store with my kids etc. That's why I said he didn't have much formal training. I compartmentalize things. Formal is workbooks and text books. Everything else is informal and just fun and learning. And.. just sayin'... I never said I didn't do anything with him, just not a lot of formal  I guess I have done quite a bit of the "living math", I just didn't think of it that way!

 

I am sorry you feel deflated and that you did not get the response you wanted. 

 

I suspect, that had you come in and said that your son had math struggles but he just mastered reading his numbers to 75 and you are so excited! You likely would have gotten a lot of positive rah-rah posts in response. And maybe some well-meaning curriculum suggestions because we just can't hep ourselves. ;)

 

That's what Jean in Newcastle said too. I just never thought of saying it then.

[MiMi 4under3]

 

 

I was just a proud mama. I worry they don't learn. But they do!

 

Happy for you IndigoGlitter!  :)  :)  :)

[Farrar]

I would urge the OP to listen to Albeto's wise unschooling advice. To not make the assumption which I see so often in unschooling circles that less education is better education. I think unschooling isn't doing less - ideally it's doing just as much, but in a radically different way, introducing things and seeing if the kids are interested, strewing resources, giving them time to learn, celebrating when they do, etc. I think a lot of people seize upon examples where kids were not taught formal math in the early grades only to excel at math later. That's absolutely a phenomenon, but in every serious paper or example I've seen about it, the parents or classroom did a huge amount of living math - math games, math books, math walks, math discussions, brain teasers, money math, math to solve other problems, etc. I think the point is not that kids can walk into middle school math without having done any prior math - it's that they can potentially do well with middle school math without a textbook or formal approach.

 

To Home Again's great living math list, I would add...

 

Kitchen Table Math

the booklists at livingmath,net

Games for Math by Peggy Kaye

math apps like Dragonbox and math computer games like Timez Attack

logic games like Mastermind, Set, and Rush Hour

games that feature math like Sleeping Queens, Rat a Tat Cat, Muggins, 24, Smath, etc.

 

For lots more ideas, you might enjoy the Relaxed Math thread, which is an infamously good source of ideas for this sort of thing:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/499692-looking-to-do-some-relaxed-math-here-want-to-share-ideas/

[Jean in Newcastle]

True... very true, thank you. I honestly didn't even think of that. Aren't y'all supposed to be psychic? ;)

 

 

Again true, however the fact he can count and he can add and subtract (which no I didn't originally say because I wasn't talking about that) means he is getting some learning. I cook and go to the store with my kids etc. That's why I said he didn't have much formal training. I compartmentalize things. Formal is workbooks and text books. Everything else is informal and just fun and learning. And.. just sayin'... I never said I didn't do anything with him, just not a lot of formal  I guess I have done quite a bit of the "living math", I just didn't think of it that way!

 

 

That's what Jean in Newcastle said too. I just never thought of saying it then.

I appreciate your gracious response here.  We really do like to cheer people on.  There are many people here who are relaxed in the early years and do a lot of living math and living science and living school of all sorts.  After about 3rd grade I think there is a bigger split as people start to go into more formal methods and curricula.  Obviously some start out with more traditional approaches as well but I'm not one of them.  ;)  

[albeto.]

Because all kids learn at different rates, in my experience, SOME ten year olds will be capable of jumping right into a 6th grade math textbook with no previous experience, and some will NOT.  In between those two extremes, many of the kids who attempt this will need considerable help from a skilled math tutor/mentor, which usually does not come cheap.  The tutor will have to create a custom-designed transition curriculum to move the child quickly through the grade 1-5 material, while ensuring understanding of each step.  

 

This is interesting, and I'm glad you shared it. My youngest hasn't had a formal lesson since 3rd grade. We jumped into algebra this year. There are certainly gaps in his math skills (how to find lowest common denominator of two fractions is new, but set theory and some algorithmic concepts are not, for example), but his knowledge seems to carry him along. It was a bit of an emotional bump in the road to start with something he felt he should have known by now, but it took a few weeks for the confidence to build back up. He's off and running now. Had I heard of this, I would have introduced these pre-algebra concepts to him earlier. Just to say, I hope this idea is helpful to others. :)

[athomeontheprairie]

Indigo, I'm happy your son is having success! I hope you find good ideas in this thread to capitalize on his interest and help him keep learning.

Albeto, I loved your first post. And in a forum of mostly non-unschoolers, I'm glad you are here.

[8filltheheart]

Ableto. and Farrar have been very thoughtful and gentle in their responses, but the question they posed is key to the motivation behind most responses in this thread. How can the assertion that all will be equal in the end be known?

 

I am far removed from being a textbook educator. I am also someone who completely ignores ps methodology and sequencing. What I don't (and won't) do, however, is dismiss the premise that educating our children requires complete intention. For most children, it does. With children who struggle, intentional, consistent learning is even more vital than for those who don't. As justasque pointed out, maybe some children can jump into 6th grade math without difficulty, but that is not true for all. For a child who is just mastering counting at age 7, red flags about learning struggles and difficulties ahead abound. It is "normal" for children to learn to count without much difficulty at a much younger age. No one has to "declare it so." It is developmentally appropriately so. It happens bc that is th way humans are normally wired and a skill that normally occurs with exposure. It is simple sequencing and sequencing is a skill normally mastered at a young age.

 

I am not trying to deflate your joy, but you articulated in your first post,

We haven't been doing any consistent formal homeschooling in about 2 years.

and subsequently state he has struggled. I have children who struggle with learning. I have had a child who could not read independently until 5th grade. He could not read simple single cvc words without sounding them out even in 2nd grade. His struggles did not mean we cracked the whip and spent hours working on his reading skills, but it did mean that we spent a short period everyday working on them and rejoicing in all of his victories. Honestly, he had no clue he was behind. I always affirmed his progress. But I **was**aware of what was developmentally appropriate (which is a reality, not just someone saying reading independently by age 7 is required) and I intentionally created an environment to help him succeed even though he was severely dyslexic. And, no, I do NOT believe he would be where he is today without intentional teaching compensating for his struggles. He would neither be successful in reading or science/math bc his inability to read would have impacted his ability to progress in math and science. (He is my ds now double majoring in physics and math and is attending college on full scholarship.)

 

Fwiw, the idea that all children can catch up and fill in gaps is very personality dependent. Some kids are self-starters and will put int the effort required. Some are defeatists and if they feel too far behind or the work too hard, they will give up. My kids have many, many friends who started off as engineering majors who gave up bc they were not adequately prepared in math. The choices they faced were remediate themselves in the weak concepts through perseverance or change to a major which didn't require those skills. I can't think of even one who chose the former instead of the latter. I believe those kids exist, but they are not the majority.

 

Content is much easier to address via interest-led approaches. That is where our family falls on the educational spectrum. Skills, otoh, need direct teaching and guidance toward mastery. (I won't bother describing my oldest dd's path in writing. But she required the same sort of intervention in writing coherently as her brother required in learning to read.)

 

Philosophical perspectives are good in that they allow us to think through what we value. But, very few educational philosophies are applicable to all situations and even less to all children. If a child is struggling, less interaction does not automatically equate to a good. (Neither does a heavy handed overdose of drowning a child in material they can't begin to process. There is a happy medium. But that happy medium is built on concrete goals, not all will be equal.)

[Soror]

Philosophical perspectives are good in that they allow us to think through what we value. But, very few educational philosophies are applicable to all situations and even less to all children. If a child is struggling, less interaction does not automatically equate to a good. (Neither does a heavy handed overdose of drowning a child in material they can't begin to process. There is a happy medium. But that happy medium is built on concrete goals, not all will be equal.)

Yes, not everyone has the luxury of using whatever educational model they want and having their children succeed. I think kids with learning difficulties end up getting the short shaft in unschooling circles too frequently, even with a good chunk of hs'ers there seems to be this idea that if you have them at home then there couldn't possibly be any learning issues, like hs'ing is some panacea, it isn't. Perhaps the OPs son was just a late starter and will be fine but I would heed the warnings in this thread and keep an eye towards the possibility that there could be more going on than your son just being a "late bloomer."

 

This is heavy on my own mind right now. My own ds has some struggles, I'd love to be able to take a more organic approach with some skills but he needs more explicit instruction not less structure to learn. We won't ever be able to drop spelling and even then he'll be using a spell checker for the rest of his life, he'll likely be practicing his math facts until he graduates and even then who knows if he will know them perfectly.  He's a bright kid but leaving him to just learn things on his own would only lead to even more uneven skills than he already has. As I mentioned in another thread we have cycles where we are less intense and more relaxed but there are some things that we can't let go, doing so would be a huge disservice to him and as his mom and teacher I've got to do the best I can to make sure he reaches his potential, so we use whatever it takes to get there. He didn't learn to read on his own, it was with painstaking slow and tedious work, likewise he will struggle, still struggles and will continue to struggle with other skills BUT we've found joy in our work, even if it doesn't always fit some unschooler's fantasy and we still have plenty of time to follow interests, work on projects and enjoy childhood as well. 

 

fwiw I'm not a stick in the mud, drilling my son, as I said we find joy in our work. I was the OP of the relaxed math thread mentioned above. I work very hard to work on playing to my son's strengths while trying to hit his weak spots however we can and reach him in a way that he finds engaging. We do work together, we are a team. Unschooling isn't the only path to an enjoyable school experience.

[tm919]

This has been a great discussion, even though it doesn't seem to have gone the way the OP had originally intended.

 

I would urge the OP to listen to Albeto's wise unschooling advice. To not make the assumption which I see so often in unschooling circles that less education is better education. I think unschooling isn't doing less - ideally it's doing just as much, but in a radically different way, introducing things and seeing if the kids are interested, strewing resources, giving them time to learn, celebrating when they do, etc. I think a lot of people seize upon examples where kids were not taught formal math in the early grades only to excel at math later. That's absolutely a phenomenon, but in every serious paper or example I've seen about it, the parents or classroom did a huge amount of living math - math games, math books, math walks, math discussions, brain teasers, money math, math to solve other problems, etc. I think the point is not that kids can walk into middle school math without having done any prior math - it's that they can potentially do well with middle school math without a textbook or formal approach.

 

I think this is true of the Bluedorns (at least in reference to delayed math). I seem to remember they mentioned cuisinaire rods, for instance. Is this her pinterest board? https://www.pinterest.com/lauriebluedorn/delaying-formal-math/I totally want to do cookie fractions now! The board games for place value links look good too.

 

I am so hungry for fractional amounts of cookies now.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have a child who has really struggled to learn.  In her case, though, she is a late bloomer.  I never stopped working with her but I worked with her where she was, instead of trying to push her to where she "should be".  If I pushed, she shut down.  If I encouraged her to grow at her own pace, she bloomed.  She is now on grade level in everything except for math and she is progressing in math.  But you do need to keep giving the opportunities to grow and learn.  

[ElizaG]

Regarding the first bolded bit: this forum isn't an intuitive choice of audience for any other reaction than that one. Perhaps you're newer here, but this isn't an unschooling forum. This forum is primarily intended for classical educators, and classical education isn't exactly the opposite of unschooling, but it's well past the middle of spectrum.

I don't think the spectrum analogy fits.  For one thing, people on these boards have a variety of different understandings of "classical education."  Some are trying to provide the equivalent of a modern private prep school curriculum, using the Sayers trivium as a framework.   Others are more interested in restoring various traditions from old-time systems of school or home education.   Then there are those who are driven chiefly by an idealistic vision of using literature to inspire moral and spiritual development.   And so on.  Some of these definitions are indeed quite far from "unschooling," but with others, there could be a lot of common ground.  

 

In any case, I don't know of any definition of classical education that requires formal math study in the primary years.   In traditional classical schools, higher math wasn't studied until the late teens.  Arithmetic was taught to young children as a separate subject, and only as much as was considered necessary for practical use.  The emphasis on math in elementary school was due to relatively recent ideas from Pestalozzi and others.  (While I don't agree with the Bluedorns about some things, they're correct about the history there.)   And as for the neo-classical model, Sayers hardly says anything about arithmetic before the "grammar stage," which she envisions starting at around age 9.  

 

This isn't meant as an argument for or against what the OP is doing in her home (especially as I don't even know what she is doing  :001_smile: ).  Just to say that nothing she's expressed here makes her out of place in a community of "classical educators."

 

To the OP -- you might want to check out the Ella Frances Lynch threads, if you're interested in more ideas.  She was a homeschooling advocate from the early 20th century who was familiar with classical education, though her written advice is more focused on the preschool and primary years.   A few of us are trying her approach, which is somewhat like the Bluedorns', and Charlotte Mason's, and Montessori's, but also somewhat not.  ;)    She doesn't recommend beginning arithmetic until the child starts showing an interest in numbers and related concepts, which in her experience is typically around age 7 or 8. 

[Runningmom80]

 For one thing, people on these boards have a variety of different understandings of "classical education." 

 

 

 

:leaving:

[daijobu]

:leaving:

 

I should also sneak away.  But I'm going to come out and say it:  I haven't read WTM, and I only have a cursory understanding of classical education.  But I find SO MANY people on this board who are using the same curricula I'm using.  I find my own questions are being asked and answered by other members.  I feel like a WTMer in spirit if not in reality.  Maybe I'm an honorary member?  

[Runningmom80]

I should also sneak away.  But I'm going to come out and say it:  I haven't read WTM, and I only have a cursory understanding of classical education.  But I find SO MANY people on this board who are using the same curricula I'm using.  I find my own questions are being asked and answered by other members.  I feel like a WTMer in spirit if not in reality.  Maybe I'm an honorary member?  

 

:lol:   No, I was running from the sometimes heated, often enlightening, but almost guaranteed to be lengthy discussion on "what constitutes a classical education?" ;)

[go_go_gadget]

:lol:   No, I was running from the sometimes heated, often enlightening, but almost guaranteed to be lengthy discussion on "what constitutes a classical education?" ;)

 

Don't worry--I won't be taking that bait. I do think, though, that however one thinks of classical education or the educational philosophies most common to this board, they still typically fall well away from unschooling. That distance needn't be hostile (as evidenced by the few unschoolers we do have and get on with perfectly well on this board), but there does tend to be some philosophical distance.

[AimeeM]

I don't think anyone is saying that he isn't doing swell - it sounds like you're proud of him and that's great (and all that matters, right?).

 

You need to be more aware of your audience. This is a classical education forum. Most of us aren't unschoolers, so we aren't necessarily going to see the appeal. 

 

 

My problem is (was) that I was just trying to say without formal training he learned to count.

 

I wasn't expecting people to say "Wow he should be counting much farther, he isn't doing what he is supposed to as opposed to my kid". Which was the feeling I got from the previous posts.

 

Perhaps he is "behind" from his peers. You don't think I don't know that? We don't start our official school year (I am incorporating some formal work this year) until Thursday. I have been working with him on a few things and he is picking it up at an amazing pace. I think he is fine. Rather than have him struggle to remember at 5 or 6, because trust me, I did try and he struggled, now he can do it with ease.

 

Perhaps my argument was simple. Sometimes simple is all you need. Again, it just seemed that all I was hearing was he should be doing more and doing better and my question was why? Why should he? By what rules and what standards? You can bet by the time it is all said and done all things will be equal. I don't see why a child has to be or should be doing particular things at a particular age regardless of what other do.Even the Bluedorns say that math is fine to wait on "Ten-year-olds are perfectly capable of jumping right into a sixth-grade math textbook (such as Saxon Math 65) with no previous experience with math workbooks or textbooks. Skipping grades K-5 in math will in no way hinder your child's success in math." That isn't to say I follow the Bluedorns teachings, I don't, but if they say math can wait then I think it can wait.

 

So should I have done more math with him earlier? Maybe. Is it going to hinder him later? Absolutely not. My whole point of my original post is that he managed to learn to count on his own without much formal training. It's celebrated when a 4 year old teaches themselves to read but since he is older and taught himself to count it doesn't need celebration. Shoot, even adults in their 40's get their GED and it is celebrated. Should they have gotten it sooner? Imagine telling a 45 year old person, oh, that's nice you finally got your GED, that should have happened when you were 17-18! I am just making a point. Any milestone should be celebrated regardless of age without someone coming down and saying, jeez so late? What took them so long. That is where I am coming from. It just burst my happy bubble.

 

I'll just tuck my tail between my legs and keep going.

 

[AnnaE]

Maybe I'll be flamed for saying this, but.... while I am very glad your child is picking up on things and making progress, I don't know that I'd really call a 2nd grader counting to a number less than 100 an achievement or thing to be proud of. Don't they learn to count to 100 in K? Not that I put a lot of stock in being 'at grade level', the grade levels are arbitrary, I get it, that's fine. But is a 2nd grader teaching himself to do something most K-aged kids can do an achievement? Only in as much as he learned it without help or support. Most bright kids can learn basic math without help eventually, because it is regularly encountered. I don't think being two years behind the average child is a great argument for unschoolers learning.

 

Edited to Add: I am not anti-unschooling, I know unschoolers who went on to be quite successful. I just don't know if your 7yo mastering a basic 5yo skill is necessarily great proof that 'they do learn'.  

 

my 4.5 year old is counting to one hundred and understands the concept of repeat that interval to 1000....

[Runningmom80]

Don't worry--I won't be taking that bait. I do think, though, that however one thinks of classical education or the educational philosophies most common to this board, they still typically fall well away from unschooling. That distance needn't be hostile (as evidenced by the few unschoolers we do have and get on with perfectly well on this board), but there does tend to be some philosophical distance.

Totally agree. I was actually going to reply along the same lines before I saw you did.

[luuknam]

So should I have done more math with him earlier? Maybe. Is it going to hinder him later? Absolutely not. My whole point of my original post is that he managed to learn to count on his own without much formal training. It's celebrated when a 4 year old teaches themselves to read but since he is older and taught himself to count it doesn't need celebration. Shoot, even adults in their 40's get their GED and it is celebrated. Should they have gotten it sooner? Imagine telling a 45 year old person, oh, that's nice you finally got your GED, that should have happened when you were 17-18! I am just making a point. Any milestone should be celebrated regardless of age without someone coming down and saying, jeez so late? What took them so long. That is where I am coming from. It just burst my happy bubble.

 

I don't think anyone in this thread would've told your son "oh, that's nice you finally learned to count, but that should've happened a couple of years ago". However, in your original post you didn't give any indication that you were aware he was behind what is considered 'normal', but seemed to think things were going great. Telling the parent/teacher something is different than telling the kid.

 

I wouldn't tell a 45yo who's happy about just having gotten their GED that they should've gotten their GED decades ago. And I would be happy for them. But, you bet that I'd think that it's unfortunate it took that long, and that I'd feel like someone dropped the ball at some point a long time ago (though probably a combination of several people and circumstances).

[Bluegoat]

FWIW, I don't do much in the way of early schooling before 7.  With my girls, we did reading, and a bit of math, and one learned to write.  THe younger one only became able to really handle a pencil at 7.  My son who is five is not all that interested in academic things yet - he is only just showing much interest in numbers and counting.  He is just different.

 

I also have zero interest in following ps timelines or any arbitrary skill acquisition.  Many things work just fine if kids start them a little later than is typical in english speaking countries.

 

They all learned a lot of things just by being children.

 

However, I don't think I would tend to see that as showing that unschooling works (or doesn't work, for that matter.)  I don't think kids at 5 and 6 are really at school age yet, so I don't really think it is different than saying someone who is 2 or 3 years old learned things without formal lessons, therefore unschooling works.

[Bjess8411]

It is natural for children to count earlier. It doesn't even take formal schooling to learn to count. It takes everyday interaction, using money, playing games (chutes and ladders goes to 100). It is just everyday life.

 

Fwiw, I have had a 6 yr old discover multiplication through Legos and cooking and observing the world. He realized that rows of number consistently always equaled the same thing. He asked me one day while making cookies if I knew that 5 rows of 4 cookies always meant there were 20 cookies. He told me he realized it when he was using his Lego blocks that if he had x number of 6 blocks, there were always y number of bumps, etc. Would he have made that realization without at least a minimal understanding of numbers? Maybe, but I am glad he had the foundation. He loves math. He was taking alg by age 10. His days of academics were very, very short (approx 1 hr per grade level when little). The rest of his time was spent doing whatever he wanted. He is now pursing a double major in math and physics.

 

Fwiw, knowing your audience helps in anticipating the response.

 

Some of you are being very rude. I don't think it is completely natural for all children to learn to count to 100 by kindergarten. You sound like you have a very academically inclined child besides the things you mention are a form of academics. I don't do those things naturally with my child! Most children are not like your child. I had a very hard time learning multiplication in 3rd grade and actually taught it to myself during the summer. Algebra was difficult for me as well, and I was a very good student! However, I was an early reader and writer. I could read well above my age grade by 2nd or 3rd grade. I learned those things before entering school.