Frustrated with HS community enabling itself to lower standards...

[LisaKinVA]

There are plenty of brilliant people stuck in dead end job and barely showing up for those. Sad but true.

 

It's a Mom's job to play on her children's strengths and work on the weaknesses. If her kids are brilliant but mentally lazy, it's HER JOB to work on that - to get them to do the hard parts of academic work instead of just coasting on their innate intelligence.

 

And what a job THAT is:tongue_smilie:

[LMA]

Wow, I apologize for the direction of this thread. I did not intend for the discussion to be negative. I was not generalizing for everyone, just for the experiences around us and I am very familiar with the general schooling around us through other homeschoolers and teachers in both public/private schools and in my work. I'm very sorry.

[Shelly in the Country]

If I were raising kids in PA I might be enthusiastic about public schools, but here in West TN I have a more dismal outlook.

 

:iagree:

 

Not all school districts are created equal. I had a pretty rigorous public school education. (mostly in PA actually fwiw). I was shocked to learn in college that not all children were taught phonics in elementary school. Not all high school students had AP courses available to them. Not all high schools offered Latin. Not all high schools had their students reading The Illiad, The Odyssey, Beowulf and Shakespeare. Not all kids read Hegel and Smith in their economics classes. Especially at the high school level, I've looked over some homeschooling curriculum that would actually give my kids a subpar education compared with what I had. (Literature in particular looks weak.) Looking at the school districts my dh and I have lived in though during our married years.....wow, just wow. Not an AP course in sight at our local high school. NOT ONE. I don't have to do much with my kids to keep up with where we live now. (This makes me sad to say this since we love our community and our community loves their school, but honestly, we can do better.) My dh was homeschooled and there are some areas in which my education was weaker than his, and others where his was weaker than mine. My goal is to give my kids a better education than we had. My dh and I often worry though that if too many homeschoolers slack off in providing a decent education for their children, ALL of us will end up more regulated by the government. I know many public schools do worse, but there is a double standard at play here. Being homeschoolers, society will hold us to a higher standard. I think we can all agree we don't need more regulations to deal with.

 

I hope that all made sense. This was a monster of a thread to wade through, and I had to skim it since I have a lunch to prepare. :001_smile:

[LMA]

How do you know this? Do you have personal experience? Do you know how all school districts work? To me, this is yet another homeschool myth...nice to say, easy to scare other homeschoolers with, yet based only on rumor, not fact.

 

It may come as a total shock to some of you, but "the system" can actually work with children who struggle to learn. Believe it or not, many schools have dedicated, caring teachers who work hard to help children who have difficulty learning, and have systems set up to catch these students and give them the help they need to succeed.

 

Case in point: in our district, kids in elementary school test four times a year in math just for placement purposes. Yep, four times a year. The kids who are having difficulty are put into a different class so that they can get the extra help and more detailed instruction they need to succeed. The kids who sail through math are in the quicker class. Yes, by the time the kids get to middle school there are three tiers: kids ready for pre-algebra in 6th grade, kids ready for 6th grade math, and kids who are at about a 5th grade level. Again, in middle school the kids test (annually at this point) and are placed accordingly. By the end of 8th grade (our last year of middle school) students can be finishing Algebra 2 or finishing 7th grade math, depending on how they have progressed. The goal is to work with the kids beginning in elementary school so that the students can complete three years of math in high school (to include algebra and geometry).

 

Not all kids are going to end up taking AP calculus by the time they graduate, but in our district all kids will make it through high school math.

 

Ria

 

Ria,

 

Yes, I am very familiar with the ps school systems around me. The system failed me as a high schooler. I grew up in an urban high school where I took summer school classes to leave hs early and get on to college. I am not making a generalized statement. My 11th grade nephew struggles to read the newspaper. My sister in law tells me every year that the teachers says he is fine and his IEP is working. Yet, when I give him a decent book for Christmas, he says he doesn't know how to read it. I have other experiences but I don't have time to list them all. I have tutored kids in math for 20 years. None of them liked math and almost all of them chose majors in college that had minimal math.

 

Around here, you ask the teachers in Ps where they send their kids and many, many of them send their own kids to private schools.

 

Louise

[Kelli in TN]

Around here, you ask the teachers in Ps where they send their kids and many, many of them send their own kids to private schools.

 

Louise

 

It was sort of big brouhaha that our superintendent of schools, who was brought in to save our district, refused to put her children in our schools. They go to a private college prep school instead. Most of us can't afford that option. My daughter's AP English was cut under her watch, by the way.

[LMA]

True, but making a general statement that a C-average homeschooled kid would get F's and/or fail out of public school is somewhat ridiculous. On the other hand, maybe this comment speaks volumes about how well-prepared (or not) some homeschoolers are if/when they are placed in public school.

 

Ria

 

I wasn't making a ridiculous statement nor a generalized statement. I meant to say that this particular child would be ignored by the teachers (his mother's words) because he requires a lot of one on one attention in every subject. He is only doing as well as he is because of the homeschooling. I wasn't commenting on his preparedness to go back to ps. He is learning under his mother but, if he went back to ps, he would not do well at all.

Edited May 5, 2009 by LMA
removing a ridiculous statement :)

[Kelli in TN]

I did not expect to be told that I was saying something ridiculous. I will sign off from this board for now.

 

I would not take it so seriously. We've been arguing about this for YEARS on here. Nobody's mind is ever really changed. Mostly we walk away even more convinced that our stand is the right one.

 

I would not let these conversations get under my skin, if I were you. This topic will be brought up again and again.

[LMA]

I would not take it so seriously. We've been arguing about this for YEARS on here. Nobody's mind is ever really changed. Mostly we walk away even more convinced that our stand is the right one.

 

I would not let these conversations get under my skin, if I were you. This topic will be brought up again and again.

 

You're right, Kelli. I wasn't trying to convince anyone just state my experiences. I was just signing off for the day. I'll edit that.

[jujsky]

I completely agree with what you're saying, because I've seen it myself over and over again. I don't expect my kids to be geniuses, but I do expect them to at least be somewhere in the vicinity of where their PS counterparts are -- and one of my children IS special needs. I know he's challenged a lot more at home because in a PS everything would be dumbed-down for him. I would say he is at least doing average work for his grade level in his difficult subjects, and above-average work for the subjects he enjoys. I think we do need to hold our children to high standards. Right now we have the right to homeschool, but that right could be quickly and easily taken away from us if lazy and complacent attitudes become the norm.

[Liza Q]

I'm curious to know why those who defend public schools don't send their own children there. This is not to say I am bashing them, but one big reason I don't send my children to our local schools is because I don't think they are very good. I can't imagine that if I lived in a wonderful district and was very pleased with the schools that I would pass that up.

 

Or local school district is pretty weak. I could have sent my kids out of the neighborhood to some good schools and there are some excellent schools they could have applied for, if we were willing to let them travel a bit.

 

In NYC you have some top schools (like Stuyvesant and Hunter College High School) and some abysmal schools. So I know that not all public schools stink - we just find it easier and better for our family to homeschool, rather than do what it would take to get them into a really good school. I went to Hunter and I have done my best to model our High School work after my own High School experience.

[Kelli in TN]

I'm curious to know why those who defend public schools don't send their own children there. This is not to say I am bashing them, but one big reason I don't send my children to our local schools is because I don't think they are very good. I can't imagine that if I lived in a wonderful district and was very pleased with the schools that I would pass that up.

 

I think some of them do send their kids to public schools.

 

If I had excellent public schools I would probably send my highschoolers there.

 

I'd probably still keep my younger kids at home, though. I like homeschooling.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Well, where I live the schools aren't great. Where we used to live, they were top of the line. My kids did try school there. I could have left my one child there a year to deal with the issues of life going on at the time. But it was a nightmare for my other child. In the end, even with a big family issue going on, my kids were better off at home.

 

But that doesn't mean I think ALL children are better off at home. I think they COULD be if mom was able to put into it what should be put into it, but many people can't and plenty won't. Those that can't or won't but keep their kids home should put their kids in school, imo.

 

If at any time, public school was a better option, I'd use it. I have a LOT of respect for people who use public school when they couldn't or wouldn't homeschool appropriately.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Well, where I live the schools aren't great. Where we used to live, they were top of the line. My kids did try school there. I could have left my one child there a year to deal with the issues of life going on at the time. But it was a nightmare for my other child. In the end, even with a big family issue going on, my kids were better off at home.

 

But that doesn't mean I think ALL children are better off at home. I think they COULD be if mom was able to put into it what should be put into it, but many people can't and plenty won't. Those that can't or won't but keep their kids home should put their kids in school, imo.

 

If at any time, public school was a better option, I'd use it. I have a LOT of respect for people who use public school when they couldn't or wouldn't homeschool appropriately.

[FlockOfSillies]

Perhaps the proper term is "urban legend"? :-)

[phathui5]

I do have a problem with people who nonschool taking that pass for their average student with no LDs who is behind because mom won't get to the kitchen table and teach them something other than how to live in filth, watch tv, and eat junk food all day.

 

I know a lot of people, and I have yet to meet someone who identifies as a homeschooler yet lives like you describe. I would think that most unmotivated people who are too lazy to teach their kids send them to school.

[phathui5]

what's the dropout rate? how many students don't MEET those requirements?

 

 

I know you weren't asking me, but here in Baltimore the dropout rate is 60%.

[OnTheBrink]

I'm curious to know why those who defend public schools don't send their own children there. This is not to say I am bashing them, but one big reason I don't send my children to our local schools is because I don't think they are very good. I can't imagine that if I lived in a wonderful district and was very pleased with the schools that I would pass that up.

 

Not everyone on this board home schools. Odd, I know, for a home schooling board, but it is what it is.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I know a lot of people, and I have yet to meet someone who identifies as a homeschooler yet lives like you describe. I would think that most unmotivated people who are too lazy to teach their kids send them to school.

 

I said the same thing when my kids were your kids ages.

 

I am glad to see that in some areas, homeschooling is decent, even according to parents who have been homeschoolng a long time.

 

That just is FAR from the case in my area. And now that I know more people in more areas, I know that the homeschooling community isn't nearly as conscientious as I once believed it was. I USED to think there were just a few bad apples. Now i know there are MANY bad apples.

 

Of course, that doesn't take away from those of us doing our jobs though!

[Spy Car]

Not everyone on this board home schools. Odd, I know, for a home schooling board, but it is what it is.

 

From what I understand this board is geared towards "Classical Education at Home", which includes what we call "home-schooling" as well as other forms of home education.

 

Why is it odd that parents with an interest in their child's education, including those who attend either public or private schools, would want to benefit from the information available here on the WTM web-site?

 

Bill

Edited May 5, 2009 by Spy Car

[Ria]

This board could be useful to traditional schoolers as well. I just don't know why some seem to find it odd that many homeschoolers have negative things to say about public schools. It is the reason why many people homeschool in the first place.

 

This has come up before in previous threads. They whole "oh why are people bashing public schools" thing. Well, because some people have had some negative experiences with their local public schools. Sometimes one bad experience can color one's entire outlook. That may or may not be correct, but what do I know if I'm here in my own little part of the world.

 

Was there a point to this whole discussion? For the life of me I can't remember what it was. :lol:

 

LOL, Wendy. Yes, I think there was a point to this discussion.

 

I'm not sure that there will ever be any way to ensure that homeschooled students are getting a "good" education, will there? First, there's that tricky definition of what is "good." Second, state oversight is not welcomed by most in the homeschool community. Third, even if there is state oversight, what does it mean, and what are the parameters and repercussions? (For example, here in PA homeschooled students must take standardized tests in grades 3, 5, and 8, and each year they must have an evaluation from a certified teacher or psychologist which is turned in to the district...but even with that "oversight" I know homeschoolers whose children are far below the national average on standardized tests, can barely read in upper elementary school, and are years behind in math and yet they are still passed to the higher grade annually.).

 

I guess I wish all homeschoolers took the classical education for academic excellence route, but that's simply not the method with which or the reason all families are homeschooling their children. It's a great idea to let parents educate their children as they see fit, but is that always in the best interest of the child educationally? Questions, questions....

 

And for the poster wondering why those of us who speak favorably about public schools wonder why we don't have our kids there, some of us do. I homeschooled for 15 years, graduated two, and have four younger ones who have been in public school for a year now. From reading the posts, I can see that we are very lucky to be in this particular district.

 

There are public schools that do an excellent job with education, and there are some that are lousy. The same is true for homeschoolers. People love to point out that there are public school students who are grade levels behind but keep moving up in grade; this happens in the homeschool community as well. Perhaps the larger question is this: how can a good education be guaranteed to all students? But now we're back to my first question. LOL.

 

Obviously, there is no simple answer, but the discussion is interesting and very much worthwhile.

 

Ria

Edited May 5, 2009 by Ria

[OHGrandma]

It's hard to get an accurate feel for a person's dilemma when they are asking for opinions over the net. There's nothing wrong with asking, but we need to also weigh those opinions against our own opinions and those of people who see us in real life.

 

I will admit, a few years ago I didn't have a favorable view of the homeschooling efforts of one family I know IRL. But all their children have turned out to be well-educated, considerate, hard-working young adults. You can't argue with results, so I'm a lot less inclined to be critical now.

[Kelli in TN]

Quote:

I do have a problem with people who nonschool taking that pass for their average student with no LDs who is behind because mom won't get to the kitchen table and teach them something other than how to live in filth, watch tv, and eat junk food all day.

 

 

I know a lot of people, and I have yet to meet someone who identifies as a homeschooler yet lives like you describe. I would think that most unmotivated people who are too lazy to teach their kids send them to school.

 

I have only ever known ONE family that came close that description. I believe that child services was actually called to their house a time or two because of the state of it. I was really relieved that most of her kids did end up in public school for high school. That family was wacked, I'm tellin' ya.

 

But still, such a rare case of anything so extreme.

[Stacy in NJ]

This is a lovely post, Jean. Much common sense here.

[LibraryLover]

From what I understand this board is geared towards "Classical Education at Home", which includes what we call "home-schooling" as well as other forms of home education.

 

Why is it odd that parents with an interest in their child's education, including those who attend either public or private schools, would want to benefit from the information available here on the WTM web-site?

 

Bill

 

 

This thread is humungo! I can't read it all...lol. I read the first page and this last page, and I agree with this.

Edited May 6, 2009 by LibraryLover
trying to catch all the typos...

[Peek a Boo]

But, back to the OP's point -- which, I believe, was not about homeschool vs. public school vs. private school or bright children vs. average vs. learning disabled children or whether the government needs to regulate homeschooling more.

 

I believe the original point was that WE, the homeschooling community, seem to be cajoling those who are ill-educating their children, rather than encouraging them to step up to the plate. This is, after all, The Well-Trained Mind forum; a place where, ostensibly, we are here to learn and encourage each other within a classical education framework. To have to argue here about whether grammar or math or science or spelling is necessary ... are you kidding me? I could do that at the local homeschool co-op. I laughed when I re-read the newest edition of The Well-Trained Mind where it says

 

 

If you end up in a local group of unschoolers and you want to follow the curriculum we've outlined in this book, you may need to switch groups.

 

 

Um .... isn't that a huge section of this board now?

i still disagree w/ the OP's specific premise, classical education or not.

[Peek a Boo]

No, it may (or may not) be a falsehood but a "myth" is:

 

A traditional story, typically involving supernatural beings or forces, which embodies and provides an explanation, aetiology, or justification for something such as the early history of a society, a religious belief or ritual, or a natural phenomenon.

 

The vulgarization of our language has to end. :D

 

It's a Classical Education forum...standards please

 

Bill

 

agreed :)

 

I was responding word for word to Ria's post.

 

carry on ;)

[WTMCassandra]

I'm not sure that there will ever be any way to ensure that homeschooled students are getting a "good" education, will there? First, there's that tricky definition of what is "good." Second, state oversight is not welcomed by most in the homeschool community. Third, even if there is state oversight, what does it mean, and what are the parameters and repercussions?

 

I think there's an additional issue. Oversight and accountability has definitely NOT increased the quality of education in public schools, so why would it increase the quality of education in home schools?

[WTMCassandra]

I will admit, a few years ago I didn't have a favorable view of the homeschooling efforts of one family I know IRL. But all their children have turned out to be well-educated, considerate, hard-working young adults. You can't argue with results, so I'm a lot less inclined to be critical now.

 

And, from the outside, it's hard to tell whether that success is BECAUSE of their homeschooling efforts or IN SPITE of them.

[Audrey]

This board could be useful to traditional schoolers as well. I just don't know why some seem to find it odd that many homeschoolers have negative things to say about public schools. It is the reason why many people homeschool in the first place.

 

This has come up before in previous threads. They whole "oh why are people bashing public schools" thing. Well, because some people have had some negative experiences with their local public schools. Sometimes one bad experience can color one's entire outlook. That may or may not be correct, but what do I know if I'm here in my own little part of the world.

 

Was there a point to this whole discussion? For the life of me I can't remember what it was. :lol:

 

 

Yes and sometimes people have taken to homeschooling because their only choice was with that "bad" school." Districting and just plain old reasonable proximity excludes a lot of options for an awful lot of parents.

 

FWIW, was one of those at the start. Our local schools are just atrocious. I know this first hand. Standards? Yes, they have them, but they're so low an inchworm would have trouble spotting them. They certainly aren't acceptable to me. Now, I just really like homeschooling and would do it again for another kid (if I had another one) for all the younger years, at least.

 

However, if there was a good high school around, I would probably look into sending ds there when the time came. Unfortunately, there isn't such a thing to be found in a reasonable distance. I'm not willing to send my son 120 miles away to board at a school in the City, which may or may not have marginally better standards than the local school options.

[OHGrandma]

And, from the outside, it's hard to tell whether that success is BECAUSE of their homeschooling efforts or IN SPITE of them.

 

Haha, good point. But after knowing this family for 17 years I came to the conclusion that what I thought was a lackadaisical education in the early years was just what these kids needed to pursue personal interests, burn off excess energy, and mature until they were ready to apply themselves to a more formal education. Knowing their youngest boy, especially, I think he would have been so turned off by a more traditional education in his early years he may not have taken off the way he has. Now, as a junior in PS, he is taking college courses in our states dual enrollment option.

[Spy Car]

Oversight and accountability has definitely NOT increased the quality of education in public schools, so why would it increase the quality of education in home schools?

 

I'd disagree with the first premise.

 

I know our local schools have improved dramatically in recent years thanks to greater oversight and accountability, which critically includes parents involvement in the equation, so it's not school-boards alone that make the difference (and we still have many problem schools district-wide).

 

But making schools accountable, combined with parents putting in time and resources can transform schools, and I've watched it happen in my community.

 

Bill

[Plucky]

I think there's an additional issue. Oversight and accountability has definitely NOT increased the quality of education in public schools, so why would it increase the quality of education in home schools?

 

It doesn't. I am part of a homeschool parent partnership. I don't need any accountability, but the school district requires things of me that qualify as accountability. What I've learned is that the school district is more interested in the appearance of learning than actual learning. They want me to cut corners and I'm just not willing to do it.

[LibraryLover]

Dear God,

 

Please don't let me get sucked into this vortex.

 

Thank you, amen.

[Kelli in TN]

Dear God,

 

Please don't let me get sucked into this vortex.

 

Thank you, amen.

 

Too late, you are here!!!

[LibraryLover]

Too late, you are here!!!

 

I can stop anytme I want. But one more for the road, bartender.

[Jugglin'5]

I can stop anytme I want. But one more for the road, bartender.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Kelli in TN]

I can stop anytme I want. But one more for the road, bartender.

 

Oh, sure you can. I can stop too. Sure......;)

[WTMCassandra]

I'd disagree with the first premise.

 

I know our local schools have improved dramatically in recent years thanks to greater oversight and accountability, which critically includes parents involvement in the equation, so it's not school-boards alone that make the difference (and we still have many problem schools district-wide).

 

But making schools accountable, combined with parents putting in time and resources can transform schools, and I've watched it happen in my community.

 

Bill

 

I am genuinely glad to hear this. In my community, the situation is otherwise. Teachers are so hemmed in trying to get students ready for tests that real learning is not taking place. I'm glad to hear of a different outcome in your community.

[skaterbabs]

In my community, the situation is otherwise. Teachers are so hemmed in trying to get students ready for tests that real learning is not taking place.

 

That's a very good description of what happens here.

[Miss Marple]

I agree with you. I do think it may be a regional thing, though. While there are those who know of few families like you mention, it is quite common where I live to find parents who feel that their kids will learn by osmosis or that they will learn everything they need to cope in life through living on the family farm.

 

We had our last day of co-op today. One mother arrived and told a teacher that _________ her 1teenage son would not be in class today because he has a job and today was his first day (9:00 a.m). This co-op *is* an academic co-op (which she has known since she has been involved for 5 years), but this boy is being pushed to work rather than do school (as was his older brother before him). He is also supposed to have fun. Three weeks ago he wasn't able to do his homework because the family was camping. His grades (or lack thereof) reflect this attitude. Little school is getting done. And this is commonplace around here. And then these parents ask us for letters of reference for their kids to get into college :tongue_smilie:

Edited May 5, 2009 by CynthiaOK

[Sunshyne]

Someone PMed me this morning to say that I had abandoned my thread. I did. There were so many tangents that had been rehashed so many times before, that I had nothing new to add.

 

I guess, in the end, we all see things through different lenses. Not at all an unusual thing, but I really honestly wonder(ed) why we accept the things we do.

 

For me, I love the rigorous path set forth in TWTM. I felt like the universe was finally aligned when I read the book for the first time. I'll continue to stay focused, always keeping in mind how easy it is to get off track. My kids get breaks, and so do I, but they are generally planned and with reason.

 

As for helping others, I think that when people ask, I'll be a little more assertive in encouraging them to push a little harder or dig a little deeper. I think sometimes people need a little push, and not just the wine and chocolate. :D Granted, a little chocolate does everybody good!

 

So, thanks, for all the input. Some of the opposing points were helpful; others snarky and testy. That's okay though, because I learned from those thoughts too. I'll work to clarify my thoughts a little bit better next time I take the plunge!

[Jill- OK]

I can stop anytme I want. But one more for the road, bartender.

 

:lol::lol:

 

I hesitated over this link in my "Subscribed Threads" section today, thinking, "Go ahead. Just delete it. Quit looking." (I have another thread I'm considering doing the same with...but I digress.)

 

I'm...I'm...just reading responses now. I'm not replying. And I can quit any time.

 

Just like you. ;-)

Edited May 5, 2009 by Jill, OK

[Blessedfamily]

Dear God,

 

Please don't let me get sucked into this vortex.

 

Thank you, amen.

 

:lol:Hee Hee. I enjoyed that.

[Kelli in TN]

:lol::lol:

 

I hesitated over this link in my "Subscribed Threads" section today, thinking, "Go ahead. Just delete it. Quit looking." (I have another thread I'm considering doing the same with...but I digress.)

 

I'm...I'm...just reading responses now. I'm not replying. And I can quit any time.

 

Just like you. ;-)

 

Pssst, Jill, what's the other thread?

 

You rabble rouser, you.

[Peek a Boo]

I'd disagree with the first premise.

 

I know our local schools have improved dramatically in recent years thanks to greater oversight and accountability, which critically includes parents involvement in the equation, so it's not school-boards alone that make the difference (and we still have many problem schools district-wide).

 

But making schools accountable, combined with parents putting in time and resources can transform schools, and I've watched it happen in my community.

 

 

I will absolutely agree that parental involvement equals better results, but that's not really the same as "school" regulations and oversight. More red tape and testing does little to improve schools --public, private, or home.

[Jill- OK]

You rabble rouser, you.

 

::Whispering::...(It takes one to know one, tee hee.)

 

:001_smile:

[Reya]

Well, not completely.

 

If you are able to teach a child self discipline, persistence, consistency, a moral framework, then you've done much to insure their future success as a human being.

 

Their IQ, along with other intangible qualities of human personality, is going to significally impact their educational outcome. And that you cannot control regardless of the type of education you provide. They are genetic.

 

Children do not come to us as unmolded clay.

 

Yes, what we do does influence outcome, but science shows it is less than most of us know or want to believe.

 

I encourage everyone to google "University of Minnesota adopted twins study".

 

I have to reply to this one, even though it's old.

 

Any non-LD kid of AVERAGE intelligence can have a number of AP 4s and 5s under his belt, including calc, when standards are high.

 

My kids are smart--"scary-smart," some would say. My son also has has handful of mild to moderate LDs. And I don't let either one shape our destiny. Though he's in "first" grade, the work he's doing is 2nd grade through 9th grade level, depending on the subject--*because I expect his best effort.* But guess what? I taught the neighbor's kid for 8 months in his "pre-K" year, and when he was K-age, he was working solidly on a second grade level in math and reading--science and history, too, if they'd tested it. And I was giving him MAYBE 2 hrs of schooling a day. MAYBE. It was just focused, and I expected hard work.

 

IQ isn't destiny. In fact, those of very high IQ have poorer outcomes, on average, than those of semi-high IQs. Far more than smarts is the value of persistence, the ability to tackle new challenges, and the background to let you overcome them. Laziness will undo any advantage IQ gives, and then some. High standards give a kid the personality traits he'll need to succeed--whatever his IQ.

[Reya]

There are plenty of brilliant people stuck in dead end job and barely showing up for those. Sad but true.

 

And more and more true the farther above an IQ of 150 you go.

 

A lack of challenge and consistently low standards feeds laziness and frustration.

[Laura Corin]

Any non-LD kid of AVERAGE intelligence can have a number of AP 4s and 5s under his belt, including calc, when standards are high.

 

 

It's extremely rare, in the UK, to gain entrance to university without the equivalent of APs - it's what the universities look for when choosing students. Only 38.7% of UK teenagers go to university, however, so that seems to imply that good AP level is attainable by the bright, but perhaps not by the average.

 

The UK system encourages specialisation from age 16, so breadth is sacrificed to depth in the pursuit of AP equivalents. Most British children take around five subjects from age 16 to 17, then only three or four from age 17 to 18.

 

Laura

[TXMary2]

You forgot one: "Homeschoolers are always ahead of their public-schooled peers just by virtue of being homeschooled." That's a lie, plain and simple.

 

I agree with your post. As one who began homeschooling 16 years ago, I can tell you that things have really changed. Back then, homeschooling was considered very much outside the norm, much more so than it is now. Homeschoolers seemed to feel a sense of obligation to prove themselves, to make sure their children got an excellent education, to make sure their children did not fall behind their public and private schooled peers.

 

Over the past 8 years I've seen all that change. I've taught classes where students are *years* behind, had 4th graders who could barely read a sentence, seen highschoolers who couldn't write a paragraph. Math? Science? Forget it...the moms would tell me, "I'm not really good at math..." or "I was never a science person..." Auughh.

 

I don't keep quiet on these boards about this; indeed, I've stepped out plenty of times to say if you can't give your children a decent and appropriate education, put them in school. Homeschooling is magical and wonderful IF the parent considers it his/her JOB. Jobs take commitment, hard work, perseverance, and dedication. School is not an option, it's not something to put aside when things get hectic, or when mom or kids just don't feel like doing it. Sure, once in a while that won't cause harm, but when it becomes a pattern there's a problem.

 

This might not be a popular mesasge, but I don't care. A child's education is a very serious matter. Making excuses for being years behind, for not teaching science during the grammar stage, for switching from one math program to another, year after year, with no forward progress is just that - an excuse. Excuses do not educate a child.

 

I would like to point out that I do see more dedicated, caring homeschoolers on these boards than I ever did in real life. The Well-Trained Mind is an excellent guide, and parents who follow it will not have to worry about their children's educations.

 

Ria

 

 

Ria, I agree with you and the OP. I am considered a "new" homeschooler I guess since this is only our 5th year, but I do consider it my full time job. I do have other responsibilities and it does get tricky working everything out, but school is a top priority. I don't want my children to be behind and they would be in public schools if I didn't care about academics. Academics aren't the only reason we chose to homeschool, but it is at the top of the list.

 

I know a couple of homeschooling families, one in particiular that rarely do school. The kids are too busy doing farm work to get any school done. It shows.

 

Thank you for being bold enough to share your opinion!