Frustrated with HS community enabling itself to lower standards...

[LizzyBee]

Well, not completely.

 

If you are able to teach a child self discipline, persistence, consistency, a moral framework, then you've done much to insure their future success as a human being.

 

Their IQ, along with other intangible qualities of human personality, is going to significally impact their educational outcome. And that you cannot control regardless of the type of education you provide. They are genetic.

 

Children do not come to us as unmolded clay.

 

Yes, what we do does influence outcome, but science shows it is less than most of us know or want to believe.

 

I encourage everyone to google "University of Minnesota adopted twins study".

 

That's not completely true. IQ was once thought to be fixed, but it turns out it's not.

 

Your post reminded me of a study I once read about. K teachers were given the supposed IQ of their students. The students performed in accordance with the teacher's expectations based on the supposed IQ scores. Then the teachers were told that the list was wrong and they were given a new list of students and their supposed IQs. The students' achievements changed to match the teachers' new expectations.

 

I've found that IQ has little to do with achievement. I know people who have brilliant IQs but are doing nothing with their lives. I know people who have average IQs who have achieved beyond their wildest dreams. Motivation is much more important than IQ ime.

 

I like what John Taylor Gatto says: Genius is as common as dirt.

[FloridaLisa]

You know, for years, I've read what some say on these boards about the impoverished standards that many homeschoolers have. The neglect and educational deprivation. But, just so we are not making a mountain out of a molehill, how about specifics? How many families do you personally know that you would say are completely neglecting the education of their child?

 

Seriously, I'm in Jill's camp. In all of the years I've homeschooled, I know *possibly* only *one* family that might be placed in the category of what I would call educational deprivation -- and even then it might be a stretch. This was a schooling family, who pulled one child out for a year because he was going to fail, homeschooled him for a year and then placed him back in school at a lower grade. So, homeschoolers? Technically.

 

It's not okay if your 13 year old isn't reading well (forbearing a learning disability). No. It just. isn't. I'm sorry.

 

See, this is the problem. There's the angst. And people don't care. They're not working with their kids. They're neglecting and educationally depriving. But, then the example you cite is a 13-yo that isn't reading well. That's just way too overgeneralized to fit in the educational deprivation category for me.

 

Lisa

[Stacy in NJ]

I did read the book the David Brooks references in his article.

 

Actually, IQ is 70% heritable. That figure is based on several adopted twin studies. And is widely accepted by the folks that study and design IQ test.

[Karenciavo]

Your post reminded me of a study I once read about. K teachers were given the supposed IQ of their students. The students performed in accordance with the teacher's expectations based on the supposed IQ scores. Then the teachers were told that the list was wrong and they were given a new list of students and their supposed IQs. The students' achievements changed to match the teachers' new expectations.

 

I believe this was because the teachers didn't push the students that supposedly had the lower IQs and they demanded more from the students with the supposedly had the higher IQs. I think this speaks volumes about bad teachers, but not sure it says much about IQs. What do you think it says about IQs?

[Stacy in NJ]

That's not completely true. IQ was once thought to be fixed, but it turns out it's not.

 

Your post reminded me of a study I once read about. K teachers were given the supposed IQ of their students. The students performed in accordance with the teacher's expectations based on the supposed IQ scores. Then the teachers were told that the list was wrong and they were given a new list of students and their supposed IQs. The students' achievements changed to match the teachers' new expectations.

 

I've found that IQ has little to do with achievement. I know people who have brilliant IQs but are doing nothing with their lives. I know people who have average IQs who have achieved beyond their wildest dreams. Motivation is much more important than IQ ime.

 

I like what John Taylor Gatto says: Genius is as common as dirt.

 

I qualified my comment about IQ by mentioning personality differences.

[LizzyBee]

I believe this was because the teachers didn't push the students that supposedly had the lower IQs and they demanded more from the students with the supposedly had the higher IQs. I think this speaks volumes about bad teachers, but not sure it says much about IQs. What do you think it says about IQs?

 

I don't think IQ is a good predictor of success.

[Karenciavo]

I don't think IQ is a good predictor of success.

 

I agree :001_smile:

[Stacy in NJ]

I make no excuses for not teaching science in the grammar stage, it's not a priority at that age. My older two are doing more than fine now that they have begun.

 

I've switched around from math program to math program. :confused:

 

Shockingly enough, my 6th grader averages two grades ahead in math. Who'da thunk it?

 

It must be because of superior teaching ability. :001_huh:

 

It couldn't be because of his natural ability.

[Kelli in TN]

That's not completely true. IQ was once thought to be fixed, but it turns out it's not.

 

.

 

I'm betting everything on this. As the mom of a low IQ child I refuse to say this is all he can do and no more. It's a delicate balance of saying to myself "He might not go to college but that's okay" and at the same time saying to myself "Let's assume for now that he will go to college someday" But I have convinced myself that IQ's can be nudged up a bit. I hope to prove myself right.

[Rosie_0801]

IQ certainly isn't fixed. My kids' godfather was born dead, first tested as having an IQ of about 80, then after an intensive year of exercise and classical music at home with mum, tested as something like 140, I think he said.

 

As for the "it's ok" type comments. I wonder how many of them mean "it's ok" and how many should be translated to "you can't do anything to fix it while you're still in panic mode, so chill out, accept that this is the way it is and start working to solve the problem. One step at a time, and all that."

 

Rosie

[Jana]

Richard Nisbett would say that high IQ is highly correlated to success. But his central point is that IQ is more fluid than previously believed.

[8circles]

Did I imply that "without oversight, adults can't be trusted to have their childrens' best interests in mind?"

 

Yes, I believe you did.

 

However, if you're hanging out in the same Singapore math book (3a for example) for 2 years (but golly, Sue sure can cook and dance!) then something isn't right.

 

I 100% disagree with this. I believe in the principles of TWTM & I'm here because I think it's a very valuable resource/community in educating my children. But classical education isn't everything. I have a feeling that you & I would define success for our children very differently.

 

You know, back to your OP, I don't know why the HS community is held to a different standard. People of all kinds fail. All parents fail their children in some way - nobody's perfect. Why would the HS community be any different? There isn't any "enabling" going on - it's just reality.

[readwithem]

 

 

I have another friend who has HS her kids all through, and they are brilliant. However, she's made no forward progress with them for the past 2 years. What?!?!? I'm sure she has plenty of people who say, "Oh I'm sure they're learning. They're FINE." No, really, they aren't.

 

 

 

What are her children's ages? I wouldn't be concerned if they were young. What do you mean by "forward progress"?

 

BTW I agree with you and I get frustrated (elsewhere) when classical hs'ing gets called elitist, snobby, etc. :glare:

[cathmom]

And if her dc are so brilliant, why aren't they learning in spite of her "laziness"?

[Renee in NC]

And if her dc are so brilliant, why aren't they learning in spite of her "laziness"?

 

:iagree:

 

As someone who changed schools 15 times from K-10th grade and then dropped out, I can assure you that you don't need a teacher to learn. (I had very little parental support as well.)

 

I don't buy brilliant children making no progress because mother isn't directly teaching them curriculum.

[clementine]

You know, back to your OP, I don't know why the HS community is held to a different standard. People of all kinds fail. All parents fail their children in some way - nobody's perfect. Why would the HS community be any different? There isn't any "enabling" going on - it's just reality.

 

I think that with homeschooling, you are bringing your children home because you DO feel you can do a better job than a school can - whether the focus is on character and/or academics. If you bring them home and you are NOT giving them a better education, in all areas that are important to you, then I don't think it's fair to keep them home.

 

Doing what is best for our children and their future is what should be our focus...regardless if it is in a home or a school setting.

[8circles]

I think that with homeschooling, you are bringing your children home because you DO feel you can do a better job than a school can - whether the focus is on character and/or academics. If you bring them home and you are NOT giving them a better education, in all areas that are important to you, then I don't think it's fair to keep them home.

 

Doing what is best for our children and their future is what should be our focus...regardless if it is in a home or a school setting.

 

Yes, I agree. But it isn't clear in the OP's examples that the PS could be doing a better job, is it?

[clementine]

Yes, I agree. But it isn't clear in the OP's examples that the PS could be doing a better job, is it?

 

No, it isn't. I wasn't responding to the OP, just to the post I quoted.

 

It's a tough situation, you'd have to personally observe a family for quite awhile to see if there was 'educational neglect'. I would just hope that if parents cared enough to bring their children home to homeschool them, that they'd be giving them the education that they deserve.

[ElizabethB]

Literacy Level is more highly correlated with earnings than IQ:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/profitable.html

 

From what I've seen (and I've studied this very closely and give reading grade level tests to every parent I meet), most public schools are doing a poor job of teaching reading, the Catholic schools and homeschoolers as a whole are doing the best job of teaching reading, then Protestant schools, then secular private schools (They are a mixed bag depending on their educational philosophy. Some are worse than the public schools, some are better, it depends on their philosophy.)

 

I have only lived in one public school district where phonics was taught well, and it was actually only one elementary school in that district, the rest of the schools in that district were failing the standard 30 to 40% that fail with a mix of sight words and incomplete phonics. (Rates jump to 50 to 60% in schools that are closer to pure whole word teaching. These rates are based on my non-random assessments of every school age child I have met over the last 14 years!)

 

But, my numbers are close to actual findings. Here is a quote from Sally Shaywitz's "Overcoming Dyslexia, A New and Complete Science-Based Program for Reading Problems at Any Level" p. 261:

 

"In one Tallahassee, Florida, elementary school where such a program [scientifically proven prevention and early intervention programs] was implemented, the percentage of struggling readers dropped eightfold--from 31.8 percent to 3.7 percent."

[TravelingChris]

I disagree with many of the so-called signs of educational neglect being actually so. I would counter that what happens in certain schools is educational abuse. First grades being forced to write a paragraph with all their spelling words (not thematically related) in a local public school. Children being forced to write papers but having no instruction at all. How about bad science being thought in elementary schools because the correct science is supposedly too hard? Many of the science books that I have used in elementary school were worse than useless if not used by a teacher who could correct and expand on the text. So, no I don't think that lower grades need science instruction. Nature study and exploration of the world are very important at this stage. The most important things in my estimation in pre-10 children is to learn to read and to learn basic math. But if some child is having problems, unless I am very aware of the family's circumstances and no something neglectful is happening, I would not criticize.

One older girl my daughter befriended in another place was not reading well. When I met her younger sister, I found she was a very good student. I could have chastised the mother but I would have been wrong. THe older girl had birth complications and is slow. SHe is happy in her homechool community and has friends. She is learning how to take care of herself and she is a good caretaker of young children. Is she a good reader- no. Would she be a good reader in school- I doubt it. Would she be as happy in school- highly doubtful since unless human nature has changed since I was in school, the mentally challenged children were cruelly treated by some.

I don't believe that homeschooling is for everyone or necessarily for all times. When I was having a cancer scare, I considered that my older girl would be able to continue homeschooling if I did have cancer but my younger would need to go to school. This year has been a big growing year for my youngest and by next year, she may be able to homeschool alone too, if necessary. That means homeschooling with an assortment of video, online and self taught material with parental oversight. I fully expect children who are intelligent and non-LD to be able to homeschool alone for most of the time with parental or tutorial help/discussion at other times.

[Elizabeth Conley]

Hmmm. Personally, I thank God for annual standardized testing. It keeps me "in the box". We take the ITBS each year. It forces me to be objective about what I've adequately covered. We have a month of regular home schooling to go before I start two weeks of standardized test preparation. Then the kids actually take the test. Then we're done for Summer, except for a few things I feel should be done continually in order not to lose skills. I'm as lazy as the next broad, possibly lazier. We took 3 weeks off for Christmas, and some days we knock off early because we run out of steam.

 

I know a lot of families who are much more laid back than we are. There seem to be a few myths out there that are giving home school families the excuse to fail.

 

1. (Public schools waste so much time/Home schooling is so efficient) that you can do as well or better by spending about 3 hours a day on school.

 

2. It doesn't matter what you study.

 

3. My kids are doing better than So & So's kids.

 

4. Science is too much trouble. We'll get to it someday...or not.

 

Let's tackle those, shall we?

 

1. Sure, public schools waste scads of time. That being said, kids on the highest track, (don't tell me they don't track any more, that's hogwash), work very, very hard in school and bring home scads of homework. Many public schooled kids spend as much as 4 hours a night on homework, particularly in HS. Which "track" are your kids on?

 

2. It matters what you study. Kids need materials appropriate for their learning styles. They deserve to have material that covers what they need to succeed in their next academic environment. If your kid had to go to public school tomorrow, would he be adequately academically prepared? The answer needs to be "Yes!" It's an uncertain world. We need to be prepared for what comes.

 

3. Don't let perception and gossip distract you from Truth. Gossips never know the truth, and never speak the truth. Who would confide in a gossip? If those twits knew that of which the spoke, they'd know when to be silent. Homeschooling families of whom people think and speak ill of often outperform those whose reputations seem unassailable. Perception is NOT reality. People's self-reports aren't as reliable as we might imagine either. One hard working homeschooling mom may wring her hands because Johnny got an 80 % on his Spelling test and she cut lessons short by 45 minutes to rush the baby to the doctor's. She looks exhausted and broken, and self reports that she's doing and "awful job" and doesn't know if the can "handle all of this!" Another homeschooling mom who is in charge of every church committee, co-op and coffee clatch in homeschooling circles may be smoothly unconcerned that her kids have only studied for 5 lonely, disjointed hours that week. Everybody tells her she's doing great, she looks great, the kids look great, everything's "Great!" ...not. None of us should be basing our self-assessment on something as unreliable as our perception of our performance in relation to the performance of others. We need to stick with objective standards and concrete measures of results.

 

4. Science is important. It doesn't matter how you teach it. It's part of the core curriculum. Besides, it's fun. The same goes for Social Studies, Literature, Composition and Mathematics. Yes, your kid needs to get through Algebra, even if s/he isn't college bound. Algebraic processes are a big part of modern life. We all need to spend a little time looking at the national standards for each grade level, and making sure we check most of the blocks sooner or later. It's not as hard as it sounds. Don't get distracted by fads in education. The core curriculum matters. Phonics vs whole language is a red herring debate. All that matters is that the kid can read and write. Science vs Tap dance is a critical decision. Don't make the wrong choice with regard to core curriculum.

 

We're here to help each other, but we shouldn't be universal cheerleaders for every "choice" a homeschooling family makes. We can offer to tutor or share curriculum before endorsing the choice to skip a core curriculum subject. We can trade off kids to give each other respite. We can make each other's lives easier in thousands of ways. It's easier to say "It's all right." rather than "Let me help." Unfortunately, sometimes "It's all right." is a lie.

[laylamcb]

4. Science is important. It doesn't matter how you teach it. It's part of the core curriculum. Besides, it's fun. The same goes for Social Studies, Literature, Composition and Mathematics. Yes, your kid needs to get through Algebra, even if s/he isn't college bound. Algebraic processes are a big part of modern life. We all need to spend a little time looking at the national standards for each grade level, and making sure we check most of the blocks sooner or later. It's not as hard as it sounds. Don't get distracted by fads in education. The core curriculum matters. Phonics vs whole language is a red herring debate. All that matters is that the kid can read and write. Science vs Tap dance is a critical decision. Don't make the wrong choice with regard to core curriculum.

 

 

I disagree with almost this whole paragraph, so I'll just focus on the positive: I do agree that science is important. I don't think that anyone, even those who don't do formal grammar in the primary years, argued otherwise. I do agree that we all need algebra. I'd be very surprised if many on this board would disagree with the importance of mastering algebra.

[Lizzie in Ma]

I make no excuses for not teaching science in the grammar stage, it's not a priority at that age. My older two are doing more than fine now that they have begun.

 

Me either. We did no formal science (read that any textbook or curriculum) until 6th grade and they tested post high school on the Stanford 10's every year anyway. We did a living book route until then.

My 7th grader is now taking BJU Life Science with the dvd's and is getting high B's and A's in it.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Seriously, I'm in Jill's camp. In all of the years I've homeschooled, I know *possibly* only *one* family that might be placed in the category of what I would call educational deprivation

 

I think that is WILD. I mean, I could have said that when my kids were little (and BOY DID I), but in the past 5 years, I have known a few people who do the bare minimum (usually using something like Penn Foster) and a few more people who do a decent job getting through a curriculum each year. I don't know anyone who gets close to being academically superior. The GREAT MAJORITY of homeschoolers I've met don't do schooling on a regular basis, don't have their children/teens do the work for co-op our other outside classes, and have kids that test many years behind.

 

I think it is absolutely wonderful that there are areas where parents of teenagers can honestly say that they know only one or a couple inadequate homeschools. I wish I could.

Edited May 4, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Elizabeth Conley]

don't have their children/teens do the work for co-op our other outside classes, and have kids that test many years behind.

 

 

My priority in selecting my kid's co-op classes is "NO HOMEWORK PLEASE!" They go to co op for fun and to meet other kids.

 

In spite of my continual 'NO HOMEWORK PLEASE!" request, they sometimes get homework. I ignore this, because the person who assigned the homework IGNORED my firm request that there be no homework. We're busy. There are 6 weeks left to my home schooling year. I don't have time for distractions from our goal of finishing our core curriculum on time.

 

I teach several 1 hour classes each week, and they're for FUN!!! It infuriates me when someone comes to me near the end of the school year and asks if my class fulfills a curriculum requirement. I tell people up front that one hour a week with no homework is supplemental, and intended to be a pleasant diversion!

 

Co op isn't part of our home education, it's a social outlet.

[LizzyBee]

I'm betting everything on this. As the mom of a low IQ child I refuse to say this is all he can do and no more. It's a delicate balance of saying to myself "He might not go to college but that's okay" and at the same time saying to myself "Let's assume for now that he will go to college someday" But I have convinced myself that IQ's can be nudged up a bit. I hope to prove myself right.

 

FWIW, an educational psychologist told me that IQ is a number that is in flux throughout our lives, and education increases IQ. Also, I have a nephew whose IQ increased 20 points, and his neuropsych didn't think he'd hit his peak yet.

Edited May 4, 2009 by LizzyBee

[Blessedfamily]

My priority in selecting my kid's co-op classes is "NO HOMEWORK PLEASE!" They go to co op for fun and to meet other kids.

 

In spite of my continual 'NO HOMEWORK PLEASE!" request, they sometimes get homework. I ignore this, because the person who assigned the homework IGNORED my firm request that there be no homework. We're busy. There are 6 weeks left to my home schooling year. I don't have time for distractions from our goal of finishing our core curriculum on time.

 

I teach several 1 hour classes each week, and they're for FUN!!! It infuriates me when someone comes to me near the end of the school year and asks if my class fulfills a curriculum requirement. I tell people up front that one hour a week with no homework is supplemental, and intended to be a pleasant diversion!

 

Co op isn't part of our home education, it's a social outlet.

 

How did they respond when you told them no homework?

 

This seems like some of the parents have different views of what a co-op is supposed to be. Does the person teaching the class think it's academic and not social? I'm not involved in our co-op, but that's what I thought it was. I wasn't aware that it was for socialization.

 

I'm not saying this to be critical. It just sounds like there are differing views, and maybe someone needs to straighten out the goals of the co-op and make them clear.

[Susie in CA]

Ria,

 

I was reminded of you right away when I read OPs post. You have always stepped up to send this messege; and I agree whole-heartedly!

 

Susie

[Elizabeth Conley]

It's a running debate. A lot of parents feel the way I do. A few don't. I tell people up front that none of my classes are stand alone curriculum for their entire year. I also tell them that what homework I give is fun, and they won't have to supervise 'cause their kids will be itching to do it. What little I give comes back completed 90% of the time, 'cause the kids love doing it.

 

I'm teaching myself when my kids need to be placed somewhere for the hour. I hate it when they get stuck with a homework giver, but I'm philosophical. I know the homework givers are only getting about 30% returned homework, because I hear them complain. (They're doing this to themselves. I don't sympathize.) You'd think they'd take the hint. I am far from alone in this.

 

I'm not kidding, we're busy. We go to co-op for fun. It's not purely social by any means. My daughter loves her photography class. Both kids love the classes where they get to do sign language, dance and Science experiments with other kids. It's not purely social, but we do go for FUN!

[Blessedfamily]

Well, thanks for bringing this up because I have been looking into my co-op, but it's very elusive. You just call a lady at the church and sign up, but I have no idea what the "tone" is.

 

It's popular, but I can't tell if it's academic or social or both.

[calandalsmom]

I think that is WILD. I mean, I could have said that when my kids were little (and BOY DID I), but in the past 5 years, I have known a few people who do the bare minimum (usually using something like Penn Foster) and a few more people who do a decent job getting through a curriculum each year. I don't know anyone who gets close to being academically superior. The GREAT MAJORITY of homeschoolers I've met don't do schooling on a regular basis, don't have their children/teens do the work for co-op our other outside classes, and have kids that test many years behind.

 

I think it is absolutely wonderful that there are areas where parents of teenagers can honestly say that they know only one or a couple inadequate homeschools. I wish I could.

 

I have never known anyone like this.

 

I think its far more concerning that people are teaching their children from science texts which claim that black holes are caused by sin and history books which say God planned that the white europeans would murder and steal from the "indians" (isnt that what providentialists really mean?) or that dinos were made on day 6 and coexisted with man than whether or not someone finishes their palate of latin workbooks for a particular year.

 

Schools do not finish their yearly curric either. Partially because textbooks and workbooks are made to incorporate as much as possible into one year so they are usable by a wide variety of people. Overall I think they are designed to be used in a less linear fashion than we assume.

Edited May 4, 2009 by calandalsmom

[Kelli in TN]

My priority in selecting my kid's co-op classes is "NO HOMEWORK PLEASE!" They go to co op for fun and to meet other kids.

 

In spite of my continual 'NO HOMEWORK PLEASE!" request, they sometimes get homework. I ignore this, because the person who assigned the homework IGNORED my firm request that there be no homework. We're busy. There are 6 weeks left to my home schooling year. I don't have time for distractions from our goal of finishing our core curriculum on time.

 

I teach several 1 hour classes each week, and they're for FUN!!! It infuriates me when someone comes to me near the end of the school year and asks if my class fulfills a curriculum requirement. I tell people up front that one hour a week with no homework is supplemental, and intended to be a pleasant diversion!

 

Co op isn't part of our home education, it's a social outlet.

 

Ha!! I agree with you on this one! We have avoided co-ops for our 18 years of homeschooling precisely because I did not want someone else's agenda pushing my agenda to the back burner.

 

Now I am in a co-op, for the first time ever, but I am the leader. Our co-op policy for the 09-10 year will be rhetoric students can have up to one hour of homework per week per class (4 classes total), logic stage students can have 30 minutes homework per class per week, grammar stage students get NO homework. All students do have a year end project to do, but this can be most anything they want to do. And when I say one hour per class per week for rhetoric stage students, keep in mind that one class is photography so that homework would be like play time anyway.

[Elizabeth Conley]

Overall I think they are designed to be used in a less linear fashion than we assume.

 

Agreed. There are many reasons to do take a nonlinear approach. There are plenty of instances of duplicated effort that suggest that skipping material is wise. There are extra-text sources that teach the material more effectively, so substitution is advisable. I also skip over agenda-driven propaganda disguised as History or Science. (I don't care whose agenda. These "adults" need to exercise more self control.) The given order is probably not ideal. I reorder material to keep children on different grade levels studying the same topic in Science and History. I also reorder material to take advantage of multi-discipline tie ins.

 

As a general rule, reordering and skipping is usually for the best.

[Pamela H in Texas]

My priority in selecting my kid's co-op classes is "NO HOMEWORK PLEASE!" They go to co op for fun and to meet other kids

 

And that is fine if that is what you're going for. But if the teacher is teaching Biology, having the kids only two hours per week, including the lab, then the kids need to have read the section and have a clue. I really was only providing a lab originally, then it ended up making sure they understood the material, then it became trying to teach it to teens many of whom didn't have a full elementary education. RIDICULOUS!

 

BTW--this co-op class formed because I mentioned at a gathering that my daughter and another girl were going to do labs together. I was asked to take on more teens for the labs (moms would deal with the daily work). There was no question that this was an academic class. There was a syllabus and due dates from the get-go.

 

Most of these teens also did a spanish class at the local private school. They did marginally better there due to the structure of the school. THere was no doubt that not doing ANYTHING would have gotten them kicked out without a refund. Even still, their behavior and diligence left MUCH to be desired. No doubt that teacher (a woman with two doctorates and over 35 years of teaching) now believes the opposite of EVERY new homeschooler about how homeschoolers behave and perform.

 

(This teacher stopped us at Wal*Mart the other day and asked Kimberly if she was still the top of her classes. Of course she is :) However, it wasn't much to say she was at the top of the homeschool Spanish class. I'm not sure I'd want the distinction of the top of that one!)

 

The 4-H people have similar issues. The writing club was...well, marginally better in some ways, dismal in others.

 

I get that this is one area. But there are many people reporting the same in their areas. On another board, a woman was telling me this stuff for years and I told her she was full of bologna. I seriously thought she was. Now I know better.

Edited May 4, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Elizabeth Conley]

then it ended up making sure they understood the material, then it became trying to teach it to teens many of whom didn't have a full elementary education

 

It's simply not fair to expect you to make up for that.

 

When I pulled my kids out of public school, it was largely because their educations were mediocre to poor. It's been a long, hard road compensating for that, but it's been our road (mine and the kids), no one else's.

 

When we decide to homeschool, we accept the responsibility. We can delegate the chores, but we are still responsible for the outcome. Furthermore, if someone's really being made responsible for a core curriculum issue, it had better be stated in the contract. If I were being made responsible, I'd expect significant compensation. It's not a minor issue.

[StartingOver]

I am a bit late to this discussion. But I have to agree. After 20 years of homeschooling, I have noticed this recently. Years ago we felt we really had to prove ourselves as we weren't the norm. As homeschooling becomes more mainstream, I see the lax attitude too.

 

I will homeschool these younger children, just as I did the olders. Rigorously.

[Jugglin'5]

I do know of one family where there is some serious educational neglect going on. The rest of the families I know are doing fine, even if they don't have the same standards I have. The kids are well-adjusted, socially confident, and very unlikely to end up in prison. Whether they get around to precalculus or physics doesn't really concern me.

[msjones]

Hmmm. Personally, I thank God for annual standardized testing. It keeps me "in the box". We take the ITBS each year. It forces me to be objective about what I've adequately covered. We have a month of regular home schooling to go before I start two weeks of standardized test preparation. Then the kids actually take the test. Then we're done for Summer, except for a few things I feel should be done continually in order not to lose skills. I'm as lazy as the next broad, possibly lazier. We took 3 weeks off for Christmas, and some days we knock off early because we run out of steam.

 

I know a lot of families who are much more laid back than we are. There seem to be a few myths out there that are giving home school families the excuse to fail.

 

1. (Public schools waste so much time/Home schooling is so efficient) that you can do as well or better by spending about 3 hours a day on school.

 

2. It doesn't matter what you study.

 

3. My kids are doing better than So & So's kids.

 

4. Science is too much trouble. We'll get to it someday...or not.

 

Let's tackle those, shall we?

 

1. Sure, public schools waste scads of time. That being said, kids on the highest track, (don't tell me they don't track any more, that's hogwash), work very, very hard in school and bring home scads of homework. Many public schooled kids spend as much as 4 hours a night on homework, particularly in HS. Which "track" are your kids on?

 

2. It matters what you study. Kids need materials appropriate for their learning styles. They deserve to have material that covers what they need to succeed in their next academic environment. If your kid had to go to public school tomorrow, would he be adequately academically prepared? The answer needs to be "Yes!" It's an uncertain world. We need to be prepared for what comes.

 

3. Don't let perception and gossip distract you from Truth. Gossips never know the truth, and never speak the truth. Who would confide in a gossip? If those twits knew that of which the spoke, they'd know when to be silent. Homeschooling families of whom people think and speak ill of often outperform those whose reputations seem unassailable. Perception is NOT reality. People's self-reports aren't as reliable as we might imagine either. One hard working homeschooling mom may wring her hands because Johnny got an 80 % on his Spelling test and she cut lessons short by 45 minutes to rush the baby to the doctor's. She looks exhausted and broken, and self reports that she's doing and "awful job" and doesn't know if the can "handle all of this!" Another homeschooling mom who is in charge of every church committee, co-op and coffee clatch in homeschooling circles may be smoothly unconcerned that her kids have only studied for 5 lonely, disjointed hours that week. Everybody tells her she's doing great, she looks great, the kids look great, everything's "Great!" ...not. None of us should be basing our self-assessment on something as unreliable as our perception of our performance in relation to the performance of others. We need to stick with objective standards and concrete measures of results.

 

4. Science is important. It doesn't matter how you teach it. It's part of the core curriculum. Besides, it's fun. The same goes for Social Studies, Literature, Composition and Mathematics. Yes, your kid needs to get through Algebra, even if s/he isn't college bound. Algebraic processes are a big part of modern life. We all need to spend a little time looking at the national standards for each grade level, and making sure we check most of the blocks sooner or later. It's not as hard as it sounds. Don't get distracted by fads in education. The core curriculum matters. Phonics vs whole language is a red herring debate. All that matters is that the kid can read and write. Science vs Tap dance is a critical decision. Don't make the wrong choice with regard to core curriculum.

 

We're here to help each other, but we shouldn't be universal cheerleaders for every "choice" a homeschooling family makes. We can offer to tutor or share curriculum before endorsing the choice to skip a core curriculum subject. We can trade off kids to give each other respite. We can make each other's lives easier in thousands of ways. It's easier to say "It's all right." rather than "Let me help." Unfortunately, sometimes "It's all right." is a lie.

 

Excellent points here. A big frustration of mine is the mindset that home-schoolers can do very little since "they don't do anything in public schools, anyway."

 

A helpful motivation for me on those days when I feel lazy: remembering everything that I used to do with my classes each day when teaching public school full-time.

[Frontier Mom]

Sometimes I wonder why people post here when they clearly disagree with the philosophy and methods outlined in The Well-Trained Mind.

 

:iagree:

 

I think you hit the nail on the head, if one follows the WTM methods, this discussion would be irrelevant. After being at the conference this weekend, I can say that Susan and those following her methods are not home educating slackers.

 

However, I do think that this discussion goes way beyond the education discussion. Let's face it, some people are just slacker-type parents in general. Unfortunately, they are also choosing to home educate.

 

I think we must be careful though because I personally believe that education does not only occur during academic times. I'm currently reading Gatto's new book and he gives many examples of men and women who excelled because of their "freedom-type education." They would never have fit the mold portrayed here.

 

Though I agree that standards should be high, I still think imposing "good" and "bad" on others is pretty risky. I just try to do my best to set high standards and let my family speak for itself. I quit trying to impose my ideals on others long ago.

[nutmeg]

regarding her co-op:

I hate it when they get stuck with a homework giver, but I'm philosophical. I know the homework givers are only getting about 30% returned homework, because I hear them complain. (They're doing this to themselves. I don't sympathize.) You'd think they'd take the hint. ....We go to co-op for fun.

 

And somewhere, on another message board, this co-op teacher is ranting, pulling her hair out over kids who come to her co-op class unprepared, homework unfinished, whose parents don't seem to care, who are there just to socialize, and who do not make the most out of the class she has spent her valuable time preparing for.

 

It's a two way street, isn't it? :confused:

 

Perhaps some better communication is needed? When folks think "co-op", there can be a huge difference in expectations. Social or academic? If you are looking for one, you won't be satisfied with the other. Why not find what works for you?

[dragons in the flower bed]

But, then the example you cite is a 13-yo that isn't reading well. That's just way too overgeneralized to fit in the educational deprivation category for me.

 

I did know a boy who did not read at 13. He was 17 when I knew him. His parents were radical unschoolers who had known John Holt personally. He had a huge vocabulary because his parents read classics aloud every night. He taught himself to read at 14, and within a month he was decoding everything and anything. Since he had such a huge literary experience base thanks to those reading-aloud parents, he jumped right in to the great books and spent his high school years exploring early American literature, James Fenimore Cooper being his favorite, I believe. At 17/18/19, he was a foreman for a construction company, very well respected.

[JVA]

You forgot one: "Homeschoolers are always ahead of their public-schooled peers just by virtue of being homeschooled." That's a lie, plain and simple.

 

I agree with your post. As one who began homeschooling 16 years ago, I can tell you that things have really changed. Back then, homeschooling was considered very much outside the norm, much more so than it is now. Homeschoolers seemed to feel a sense of obligation to prove themselves, to make sure their children got an excellent education, to make sure their children did not fall behind their public and private schooled peers.

 

Over the past 8 years I've seen all that change. I've taught classes where students are *years* behind, had 4th graders who could barely read a sentence, seen highschoolers who couldn't write a paragraph. Math? Science? Forget it...the moms would tell me, "I'm not really good at math..." or "I was never a science person..." Auughh.

 

I don't keep quiet on these boards about this; indeed, I've stepped out plenty of times to say if you can't give your children a decent and appropriate education, put them in school. Homeschooling is magical and wonderful IF the parent considers it his/her JOB. Jobs take commitment, hard work, perseverance, and dedication. School is not an option, it's not something to put aside when things get hectic, or when mom or kids just don't feel like doing it. Sure, once in a while that won't cause harm, but when it becomes a pattern there's a problem.

 

This might not be a popular mesasge, but I don't care. A child's education is a very serious matter. Making excuses for being years behind, for not teaching science during the grammar stage, for switching from one math program to another, year after year, with no forward progress is just that - an excuse. Excuses do not educate a child.

 

I would like to point out that I do see more dedicated, caring homeschoolers on these boards than I ever did in real life. The Well-Trained Mind is an excellent guide, and parents who follow it will not have to worry about their children's educations.

 

Ria

 

:iagree: Totally agree.......we've been hs for 22 years and the committment and dedication has carried us through. This is definitely my JOB. And I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[Jill- OK]

Perhaps some better communication is needed? When folks think "co-op", there can be a huge difference in expectations. Social or academic?

 

...with the co-op that we're attending next year, lol.

 

It's explicit that they're academic. No apologies. (And I mean, Veritas Press for the Littles, Biologist teaching science, Latin classes and college prep academic).

 

We had to apply. Be interviewed. Bite our nails while we waited for the decision.

 

They have a Draconian dress/behavior code. A grade limit. (Students have to maintain an 80% average). Sure, there are things done simply for fun...but there are high school credit worthy courses, too. I don't know how they would qualify if they didn't contain homework. My older kids are taking biology and geometry next year, and I wouldn't waste my money (and volunteer hours) if they weren't getting actual instruction with expected practice at home.

 

But...that's what we want.

 

I would just counsel folks to partner with a group that meets your needs, I guess. It seems like it would save everyone a headache, and wasted time.

[Karenciavo]

I think its far more concerning that people are teaching their children from science texts which claim that black holes are caused by sin and history books which say God planned that the white europeans would murder and steal from the "indians" (isnt that what providentialists really mean?) or that dinos were made on day 6 and coexisted with man than whether or not someone finishes their palate of latin workbooks for a particular year.

 

Good grief, more of the same Straw Man crap. No, this isn't what providentialists really mean nor have I ever seen books like you mention above.

[Annie Laurie]

Did I imply that "without oversight, adults can't be trusted to have their childrens' best interests in mind?" I *am* a homeschooling mom, afterall. Of course I believe we can chose what's best for our children! I also believe that what we sometimes envisioned may not be what happens. I believe that sometimes we can lose focus, and when we turn to our peers, they may simply encourage us to continue down that path which is probably not really the best choice. Ironically, back to the friend I mentioned in my OP- If she asked what I thought, I'd probably be hesitant to tell her my honest opinion. It's HARD to talk about! Yet, it's truly important.

 

Yes, that's what you implied. I do understand your feelings on hsers encouraging other hsers in the wrong direction when maybe they need some suggestions and a gentle nudge instead, but I believe that's an entirely separate issue and that oversight wouldn't make things better.

 

 

Most people have a yardstick of some kind. Like it or not. It may be your curriculum that you measure by, or your own educational experiences, or the progress in your co-op. There must be some way to have measurable progress or lack thereof. Perhaps my yardstick isn't the same as yours. However, if you're hanging out in the same Singapore math book (3a for example) for 2 years (but golly, Sue sure can cook and dance!) then something isn't right. Yardstick or none.

 

The problem lies in communicating such things, particularly when asked... Again, that would be hard...

 

Yes, but it should be your own yardstick for your own children. And you're right that each person's yardstick may be and usually will be different. Therein lies the problem of applying your yardstick to other peoples' children. Or of one person, or group, deciding what children should be doing, when.

[mama2cntrykids]

Like a pp said, part of the reason that I will be HSing is to raise the bar so to speak on their education. My oldest is in 2nd grade PS this year and he likes it, but almost always scores above 95% on everything. I'm not saying I want him to have poor scores, BUT I can also see he needs a challenge and that's what I plan on giving him. The same for his younger bro and sis. His younger bro is in Kindy PS this year and he just isn't stretched. I started to after-school my oldest, but after being away from home 8.5 hrs./day 5/days/week, he just is burnt out. By that time he just wants to BE.HOME and spend time with us, not do MORE school work.

 

Sorry I rambled and got off topic, lol...

[Kelli in TN]

I would just counsel folks to partner with a group that meets your needs, I guess. It seems like it would save everyone a headache, and wasted time.

 

I agree with Jill. If everyone it just upfront what they want and parents choose their co-op or outside class to fit what they need or want and then pursue excellence within that framework, there will be less frustration for parents, teachers and students.

[Rosy]

Coming in late on this, but my sense is that homeschooled kids who fall through the cracks would fall through the cracks in ps, and ps kids who do are encouraged to succeed would be encouraged to succeed at home. Educational neglect isn't specific to the homeschooling community, it is a result of parents who truly don't care (or don't care enough) about their kids' educations. PS teachers can't do much with kids whose parents aren't willing to read with them, make them do homework, etc.

 

For the vast majority of us who do care, we have different goals and different ways of getting to our goals. So I am wary of sweeping criticisms of the homeschooling community on this basis. The way I educate my son might look like neglect to someone else (he only schools about 3 hours a week), but it is a deliberate choice on my part based on his abilities and level of interest. While I ache for kids who are truly being neglected educationally (and yes, I've known them), I think that for the government to set up a yardstick by which homeschoolers should measure our progress would create way more problems than it would solve.

 

So I'm not sure there's a solution, other than doing my best and encouraging those within my circle of influence to do the same.

[Jugglin'5]

I agree with Jill. If everyone it just upfront what they want and parents choose their co-op or outside class to fit what they need or want and then pursue excellence within that framework, there will be less frustration for parents, teachers and students.

 

Yes! personally I wouldn't want to bother with a primarily social outlet, no-homework co-op, though I can certainly see why they are valuable to others. We have plenty of other social outlets, and live too far out to drive for more, even if I wanted to. We had a few growing pains in our first year of co-op, because there were a few families whose expectations didn't match up well. We have learned to be very clear about that now. I wish we had done something more like what Jill was describing the first year.:) It would have saved some hurt feelings and wasted time.

[stripe]

When I was growing up, I was acquainted with a family who removed their children from school to homeschool them, which lasted for a few years. Apparently they fell far, far behind in certain areas, and I was lead to believe that they were expected to teach themselves math and so forth, and ended up going to private school. In my own mind, I was fairly dismissive of the homeschooling movement as being mostly made up of such people, and this was why I was somewhat opposed to homeschooling in times past. My perspective is now that this is a very real danger of homeschooling -- unprepared parents who mean well but don't really know what they're doing, nor do they know how to find out, nor do they take the time to try -- and we must confront this problem, ourselves, to make sure we are not coming from that perspective.

 

I understand that one might want to homeschool their children even if they know nothing about, say, literature or math or science, but I think it is critically important that we not compare ourselves to the worst tall tales of public schools and smugly declare that we are doing better than those people -- instead we should come up with goals and how we will achieve them. The goals should include academic as well as other areas, such as social and moral.

 

If we expect our children to be motivated and educated, then it would be wise for us to educate ourselves, bring our own skills up to par, so that we will be able to help them become educated people, not pass on our own shortcomings to the next generation.