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I'd be very surprised if many on this board would disagree with the importance of mastering algebra.

 

And this leads me to what is one of my biggest peeves on this board: the "do we hafta" threads. Do we HAVE to teach diagramming? How much of this grammar stuff do my kids have to learn (how much can I avoid teaching)? Latin, why bother? Um, have you even "bothered" to read WTM? You are aware this is a classical homeschooling board, yes?

 

I think you'd be shocked at how many people here actually think that learning algebra is overrated because "my kids won't use it anyway. At least I never have." It's not the kind of thing that people would come right out and state in a poll, but it trickles out in different threads here and there.

 

:rant:

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And this leads me to what is one of my biggest peeves on this board: the "do we hafta" threads. Do we HAVE to teach diagramming? How much of this grammar stuff do my kids have to learn (how much can I avoid teaching)? Latin, why bother? Um, have you even "bothered" to read WTM? You are aware this is a classical homeschooling board, yes?

 

I think you'd be shocked at how many people here actually think that learning algebra is overrated because "my kids won't use it anyway. At least I never have." It's not the kind of thing that people would come right out and state in a poll, but it trickles out in different threads here and there.

 

:rant:

 

I have a similar pet peeve - the posts asking for math/science/whatever programs that their kids can use to teach themselves. Sorry, folks, but if you are handing over math to an elementary-age child, there's a real problem. Children need teachers...real human interaction, instruction, and feedback. Not just a DVD or a workbook.

 

Ria

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I think its far more concerning that people are teaching their children from science texts which claim that black holes are caused by sin and history books which say God planned that the white europeans would murder and steal from the "indians" (isnt that what providentialists really mean?).

 

 

 

Wow. Would you cite some links to texts that teach this? I'm a fairly conservative creationist, but I've NEVER heard of these things before!

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I started a coop 4 years ago that I stepped away from 2 years ago. It was designed as an enrichment program. Now, they "teach" high school physics, chem, etc. for 45 min one time a week. I'm not sure if homework i is required but it's not graded- we heard that most of the time the chem teacher doesn't even show up. I know that parents are counting these classes as 1 credit classes. We know a kid who graduated last year and is basically flunking out of La Tournier in TX becasue he can't do the work. He had high test scores but can't process math and science info.

One of my pet peeves in the h.s. community is that, especially as the kids get older, the quality of teaching and expectations goes way down. We've had an impossible time finding other like minded homeshcoolers of high scbool kids who actually expect thier kids to learn and who will take responsibility for the hard stuff. They either want to pay hardly anything for a lamo class in order to de-guilt or just ignore it and say that they are in "a season of re-education" (no offense to Marilyn Howshall or anything but her original intent has been taken as justification for a whole lot of sloth). I don't hold myself up as the epitome of a draconion homeschooler either as it's darn hard to teach what you don't know or know inadequatly. It's sometimes difficult to gather the resources to go beyond yourself, so I get that, too. It's easy to see why so many people we know with high schoolers go the private school route if they can afford it.

I do believe that education is about far more than test scores or academic info. It is the transmission of culture. Apathy and mediocrity are clearly aspects of our culture for both public and homeschoolers.

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:iagree:

 

I have a similar pet peeve - the posts asking for math/science/whatever programs that their kids can use to teach themselves. Sorry, folks, but if you are handing over math to an elementary-age child, there's a real problem. Children need teachers...real human interaction, instruction, and feedback. Not just a DVD or a workbook.

 

Ria

 

It's funny though, the homeschoolers I do know in real life are pretty rigorous. Then again, most of the families I do know have high school students, and my state is one of the moderately regulated ones.

 

To be truthful, I only have time to worry about my family and I take the responsibility of educating them very seriously. Kwim?;)

 

Oh, and I have ALL THREE COPIES OF THE WELL TRAINED MIND along with TWEM! I have the latest copy in my hands...Yippee.

 

 

Thank you Susan...

Edited by Tammyla
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Sorry, folks, but if you are handing over math to an elementary-age child, there's a real problem. Children need teachers...real human interaction, instruction, and feedback. Not just a DVD or a workbook.

 

Ria

 

Yep, and not JUST elementary aged children, either.

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Our kids are each homeschooled for a different reason. For DS #1, he has never been a good fit for public school from kindy on. We finally gave up on public school for him when our local middle school principal informed me that she didn't care what was in his IEP, he'd fall in line with what she wanted or else.

 

He never went back - except to return a book he'd borrowed from the school library.

 

DS #2 will begin middle school next year. He will not be attending public school because 1. it's the same middle school and 2. he'd be eaten alive socially. (He has mild autism.)

 

DD is not attending public school because she's a chronological kindergartner doing first- and second-grade level academics without ANY formal instruction thus far in a county that cannot offer her appropriate academics in the appropriate atmosphere. In other words, we'd have to enroll a five year old as a first or second grader in a system that has no provision for her emotional and physical needs as a five year old. Sure, she can do the academics, but she'd be between two and three years younger than her classmates, with the maturity level of the other kindergartners.

 

Standardized tests are fine - for some kids. Personally, I much prefer the portfolio option that is offered by my state. We submit work samples that "show adequate progress" for the student. The parent decides what constitutes adequate progress. So for my child who graduated fifth grade unable to subtract with carrying? That meant at the end of the year he had FINALLY mastered that skill. It took 7 months to do though, because he had to un-learn place value and subtraction the way the schools had taught it.

 

Our county is considered one of the "best" in the state academically, and I can assure you, that is only the case on test day. Everything they do boils down to the test. Advanced students are ignored, and remedial students are coached so that everyone passes the test. If everyone passes, the county is happy and the state is happy, and the parents looking for "good" schools by test results think "Oh! What great schools they have!".

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There was a woman at our coop with 6 kids who is a very dear person, but for years, she would elicit sympathy from everyone because she always lived in a state of overwhelm and just would not get any school done- and she would come along and joke about it. For years. I know having 6 kids is full on, but that is a choice, and if one chooses to homeschool them as well, surely there is a sense of responsibility to get school done? After quite a while I stopped offering the sympathy because I realised I was feeding something unhealthy. I think nowadays she is back on track to some extent, but I just can't imagine not doing any school with older kids due to life just being in constant chaos (appointments, difficult marriage, etc), for years. She did put her oldest in school when he was 15 because she couldn't get him to do any work, and I am grateful to her for warning me to keep my son working even though he was a reluctant learner and writer, and often the advice is to wait, they will blossom- because when they are 13 or 15, its much harder to "make them" if the habit isn't there and they just dont want to.

I met another homeschooling mum 2 weeks ago who was complaining that her moderator gives her a hard time and wants her eldest in school, because her oldest- he must be at least 11 or 12- still can't read. She wanted sympathy because that was so unfair- the moderator just didnt know her child. The mother couldn't teach him anything, he wouldn't let her. She is an unschooler- but at what stage do you realise, it isnt working?

So I see this mentality all too often, and I think it does give homeschoolers a bad name, and I do think that its a form of neglect- although often I am sure it coudl be remediated with a few solid years of schooling. I know my moderator is grateful to come and check on us yearly, because we have actually done stuff. She says some places she visits dont even have any books in the house. Others expect her to design their program for them because they just dont have a clue- but its not her job.

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I really feel that the HS community has completely enabled itself to settle for for lower standards than we should.

 

No, it is not acceptable for your child to be that far behind unless he truly has a learning disability. You may need to reconsider your motivations for HS and step up and take responsibility for your child's lack of education at home.

 

 

I understand the original point of where the author of this thread is coming from... but I do feel suggesting or actually trying to "determine" whether HSing has allowed lower standards is a sticky wicket -- that would allow a dangerous precedent.

 

From my past experience as a K-6 schoolteacher, I've seen many schools from the inner cities to rich posh suburbs. No matter where the school is at... you can bet there are at least 2-3 excellent teachers working their butt off for the students and there are 1-2 HORRIBLE teachers who really should be stripped of their teaching credential and fired. The system I was in was trying to address the same issue and get the terrible teachers to rise to the level of the excellent teachers. Their answer? Regulate everything -- and keep a close watch on test scores. "No Child Left Behind" became the crying call and every teacher I know hated teaching from that point on as we were parroting the govt mantra and getting the kids to up their test scores -- and no one had time to enjoy the original reason for the job: TEACHING.

 

What I am trying to convey is -- if what you are suggesting is to make sure all HS'ers are above grade level and excel -- then you are also creating a law or program to take away our freedom to teach. It is impossible to ask for all children to be excelling as homeschoolers. Heavens. That would be a miracle. In my classroom, out of group of 30 students, I'd have on average 3-4 kids who were not at grade level, 25 average (grade level) students, and 1-2 students who were superior (above grade level). And that was in the rich posh suburb schools! Inner city schools had 50% of my students below grade level that I could not teach the curriculum but had to reteach past skills from previous grades.

 

Regulation (i.e. state control) would end up ruining the right to homeschool. Not every parent is perfect. We all have times of illnesses, stress, death, moving, divorce... etc -- that prevent homeschooling from occuring. When I taught in the classroom, there were years when I felt the year was ruined (i.e. pregnancy -- sub screwed up my lesson plans from March-June and learning suffered) (i.e. student teacher in my classroom for the semester -- I was the mentor -- she did a decent job... but really created a "gap" for the 3 weeks she taught full time... in late May. By the first week of June, the kids were not in the mindset to catch up. LOL) However, it was common to usher in the new crop of kids each September and REVIEW past skills they "forgot" over the summer for the first 2 months of school. Grade level work never began 'til around Halloween. I'd always complain it took months to get the class "just right" with learning, classroom rules, and study habits... by the time June came... I hated seeing them go off to the next grade level after all of that hard work.

 

We have so much freedom with homeschooling! If you have a bad day/week... you don't move them on to the next teacher... they stay with you. And you get the chance to work as a tutor to their learning strengths and tailor the curriculum to fit their needs. I couldn't do that as a schoolteacher with 30 students. Why create something that would judge or regulate parents? That is what the states and teacher unions want to do. I say stop the judging and let's network and support each other -- think of this WTM Forum as one large "teacher's lounge" to get help and encourage one another.

My 2 Cents,

Pat

Edited by tex-mex
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I definitely see the idea of hands on teaching of small children but one of the most important things I have to teach my children is how to teach themselves. That doesn't mean I don't care, don't help, etc. However, I would like to know how much one to one teaching is going on in schools and if it isn't and lectures are the norm, what is the difference between a video lecture, a computer lecture and a classroom teacher? Yes, a one on one tutor is at times necessary but not for most children at most times. If you have been homeschooling in the long run, you teach your children one on one or in very small groups while they are little. At some point, and certainly by high school age, the child should be mostly doing work by themselves. That creates independence. I don't want a dependant child going to college or off to work. I have seen plenty of problems with schooled children going off to college and not being used to scheduling learning for themselves. A child can learn, know something, but if they can't produce that paper on time, or get their studying done in advance of a test, they won't get good grades.

I am sure that many would think I am too lax. I don't have schedules all planned out for months. I have the girls do their assigments on most days Monday through Friday and that includes summer. Sometimes they do their work on the weekend too. However, even if I am not assigning work, they learn and work on their own. All the time- no. But more than people might suspect. My younger one fixes things, invents things and loves to watch science and engineering shows. Yes, she also wants to play Club Penguin and watch mindless tv at times but official school comes first and doesn't take 6 hours for her. My older one writes a lot of stories in her free time and also likes to check out non-fiction books on current interests of her which include things like computer languages, sharks, and movie technology. On the so-called wasted times of going to doctors and dentists, they often ask questions that lead to very educational discussions.

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School is not an option, it's not something to put aside when things get hectic, or when mom or kids just don't feel like doing it. Sure, once in a while that won't cause harm, but when it becomes a pattern there's a problem.

 

Ria,

 

I'm quoting you, but I'm not picking on you. I just know from experience that there are sometimes extraordinary circumstances which mean school must be put aside for a while or even a long while. I know in our case school was bare bones for the last couple of years, and there is no way we could have handled any other type of school.

 

Before that I had high standards, but I always knew I wasn't homeschooling for purely academic or religious reasons. I knew even before death became so commonplace in our lives that life is short and there are more important things than sitting in school everyday from 7:00 to 2:15. I loved that one year my kids got to surprise their gradmothers on the grandmothers' birthdays with a visit, even though we live six hours away. I loved that we could go on business trips with my husband to Washington and Philadelphia to see places that we study in history. After he died, those trips, became even more precious. So, is the fact that he could go out to eat with the kids on Friday afternoons when he was off work.

 

This year some of my kids went to public school when another huge change in our lives meant that school would be bare bones for the third year in a row. I wasn't willing to do that. I am happy to report that my oldest is right where she would have been if she had been in public school all along... she's been placed into all all honors classes at a top-rated high school. I'm glad we didn't have her sitting in a classroom all day, every day instead of spending time with her dad.

 

I have a younger child, who never got the good homeschool that we use to be, because the craziness started two months after he started kindergarten. Upon going to public school, he had to skip a grade, because he was so far ahead of what he would have been doing with his age mates. Again, this is a nationally-recognized elementary school.

 

So, I don't judge what anyone else does, because I haven't walked a mile in their shoes. Academics are important, but life & relationships are also.

 

After writing this, I realized I should have put it under the comments about the brillant kids not making any progress. I don't believe that, because I know my bright kids did well (and learned) even when I wasn't doing well.

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Our society is a funny one where kids are overly valued one hand and yet under estimated on the other. Kids can be given the reins to the family even though kids don't have the capacity to make the kinds of choices that need to be made. Kids can be catered to so much that they never have to grow and learn to stand on their own two feet. Kids can be babied and spoon fed intellectually so that they never really learn to think. Personally, I think this is something that I see in a lot of schools, clubs, and even Sunday Schools. And I see it in some homeschool materials. My kids roll their eyes at some of the meaningless activities that that they are exposed to (but not by me!). Often these activities that might meet some objective for the State but doesn't really help them to grow intellectually at all.

 

If the parents are still the parents, the family can weather the tough times because the kids feel secure and loved. If kids are allowed to slowly become more and more independent as they are able in their schoolwork, they will start to invest in their own education. If kids are taught and required to contribute to the family through chores etc. then they will take pride in helping out when Mom or Dad can't keep everything going. If kids are given intellectually stimulating books, puzzles, games, audio and visual material then they will be able to continue to learn even if they have to take a break for a while from the textbooks.

 

You can march along and complete every bit of a intellectually stultifying program and not really learn anything. But if you are in an educationally rich environment then you are always learning. We often measure educational success - not by what someone really knows about the world or it's history but by what skills someone has. But skills (decoding, writing, etc.) tend to be developmental and some children just aren't ready for those things when others are ready.

 

My advice to those who are struggling:

 

1. Is your home a rich place intellectually? If not, please immerse yourself, not in school, but in learning.

 

2. If your life chaotic? If the chaos comes from not taking your rightful place as a parent, then you have a problem.

 

3. Is your child struggling developmentally? It may be that your child just isn't ready yet. But you will need to prayerfully consider whether you might need some intervention (therapy or whatever) to help your child along.

 

4. Is your struggle temporary or long term? If it is temporary, don't sweat it. If it is long term, what can you do to bloom even in the difficult circumstances.

 

I am chronically ill and do not have the stamina to provide all the hands on attention I would like to give my kids. But because we have a rich learning environment, a strong parent base, and kids who have stepped up to the plate, my kids are flourishing in our homeschool.

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I have to say though, that I am surprised close to daily by homeschooling friends who call DS during what I would consider standard "school hours".

 

One of the nice things about homeschooling for us is that we don't have to have "school hours." The kids have a checklist to get done daily, and it has to be done by bedtime. That means that we can have friends over right after lunch and finish schoolwork after dinner if we want to.

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I read through most of this thread this morning. What I don't see addressed is that many kids will still struggle with learning even if they are homeschooled. I know several homeschooled kids who are just 'C' students (as described by their own parents), but if these students went in the public school system, they would definitely be F students or even drop out in high school (the kind that the system would fail). These kids are thriving and learning even if they don't get every math problem right (One mother tried to make her child correct every problem but he just got frustrated and withdrew. She had to change the style under which her child learned.)

 

The impression I take away from this is that if you are always on the ball, then your students would be always at the top of the game. There are plenty of 'average' or even 'below average' students who are homeschooled. We as homeschoolers are giving the wrong impression that all homeschooled kids are the best academically if we as parents just gave 110% all the time. Another impression I get is that if a kids is not doing well academically at home, then the parents are not doing their job.

 

Thoughts? Maybe I misread some of the posts, but not every child will be the best under any system and maybe the home system is the best for that child to find out his/her potential. The school system will not always be the answer to what "looks" like a bad homeschooling situation.

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I read through most of this thread this morning. What I don't see addressed is that many kids will still struggle with learning even if they are homeschooled. I know several homeschooled kids who are just 'C' students (as described by their own parents), but if these students went in the public school system, they would definitely be F students or even drop out in high school (the kind that the system would fail). These kids are thriving and learning even if they don't get every math problem right (One mother tried to make her child correct every problem but he just got frustrated and withdrew. She had to change the style under which her child learned.)

 

The impression I take away from this is that if you are always on the ball, then your students would be always at the top of the game. There are plenty of 'average' or even 'below average' students who are homeschooled. We as homeschoolers are giving the wrong impression that all homeschooled kids are the best academically if we as parents just gave 110% all the time. Another impression I get is that if a kids is not doing well academically at home, then the parents are not doing their job.

 

Thoughts? Maybe I misread some of the posts, but not every child will be the best under any system and maybe the home system is the best for that child to find out his/her potential. The school system will not always be the answer to what "looks" like a bad homeschooling situation.

 

I think the goal is to make sure each child reaches the highest level they are able to. I have an 8yo that may never achieve at the WRM level, but it is my job to make sure he is achieving as high as he can go.

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Regulation (i.e. state control) would end up ruining the right to homeschool. Not every parent is perfect. We all have times of illnesses, stress, death, moving, divorce... etc -- that prevent homeschooling from occuring.

 

I have mixed feelings about regulation. For years, I said, "the state should be held accountable by parents, not the other way around." I STILL believe that. However, now that I see there really are LOTS of parents who refuse to do right by their kids, I'm not convinced completely anymore.

 

And I don't think that regulation would ruin homeschooling. IF it went too far, sure. But things like requiring a portfolio or testing wouldn't hurt. Requiring kids put back into school if there was a lack of progress a few years in a row would be fair so that a bump, like getting 4 months behind, etc wouldn't be in the equation, etc. There would be ways around it such as a doctor's letter if there was an extremely good reason.

 

But generally, the family could still pick which style they wanted to use. They could pick the method, the curriculum, whatever.

 

And sure, there will be a few kids that STILL slip through the cracks. But the majority of kids that *I* know would be in school where they have a chance at an education. And btw, I do NOT believe that these kids would be failed to these extents in public school generally. They may not take full advantage of the opportunity but they would get SOMETHING out of visiting a few teachers for classes 6 hours per day, being encouraged to participate, etc. And though the social skills training at school isn't good, imo, it isn't worse than what some of these kids are getting. It may well be better socially also. Seriously, there ARE standards at most schools. They might not be wonderful, but they are existent.

 

Anyway, so I'm mixed on the idea of regulation. *I* hate the idea of being accoutable to ANYONE other than God and my family. But I'm doing right by my kids. But I also hate that there are so many homeschoolers getting so little at home when they'd at least have a chance at all with the structure and consistency of school.

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The impression I take away from this is that if you are always on the ball, then your students would be always at the top of the game. There are plenty of 'average' or even 'below average' students who are homeschooled. We as homeschoolers are giving the wrong impression that all homeschooled kids are the best academically if we as parents just gave 110% all the time. Another impression I get is that if a kids is not doing well academically at home, then the parents are not doing their job.

 

I think we're all bright enough to give a deserved pass to the parents of children who struggle despite mom doing her job appropriately for that/those child/ren. I have no problem TAKING that pass for the situation I have with one of my students. I do have a problem with people who nonschool taking that pass for their average student with no LDs who is behind because mom won't get to the kitchen table and teach them something other than how to live in filth, watch tv, and eat junk food all day.

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....

 

And I don't think that regulation would ruin homeschooling. IF it went too far, sure. But things like requiring a portfolio or testing wouldn't hurt. Requiring kids put back into school if there was a lack of progress a few years in a row would be fair so that a bump, like getting 4 months behind, etc wouldn't be in the equation, etc. There would be ways around it such as a doctor's letter if there was an extremely good reason.

 

......

 

This is how the homeschooling laws are here. A basic test or portfolio at the end of the year. If your kids get below a certain stanine, your homeschool can be put on "probation". I don't know how they make allowances for LD situations, but I am happy with the laws, generally.

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I know several homeschooled kids who are just 'C' students (as described by their own parents), but if these students went in the public school system, they would definitely be F students or even drop out in high school (the kind that the system would fail).

 

How do you know this? Do you have personal experience? Do you know how all school districts work? To me, this is yet another homeschool myth...nice to say, easy to scare other homeschoolers with, yet based only on rumor, not fact.

 

It may come as a total shock to some of you, but "the system" can actually work with children who struggle to learn. Believe it or not, many schools have dedicated, caring teachers who work hard to help children who have difficulty learning, and have systems set up to catch these students and give them the help they need to succeed.

 

Case in point: in our district, kids in elementary school test four times a year in math just for placement purposes. Yep, four times a year. The kids who are having difficulty are put into a different class so that they can get the extra help and more detailed instruction they need to succeed. The kids who sail through math are in the quicker class. Yes, by the time the kids get to middle school there are three tiers: kids ready for pre-algebra in 6th grade, kids ready for 6th grade math, and kids who are at about a 5th grade level. Again, in middle school the kids test (annually at this point) and are placed accordingly. By the end of 8th grade (our last year of middle school) students can be finishing Algebra 2 or finishing 7th grade math, depending on how they have progressed. The goal is to work with the kids beginning in elementary school so that the students can complete three years of math in high school (to include algebra and geometry).

 

Not all kids are going to end up taking AP calculus by the time they graduate, but in our district all kids will make it through high school math.

 

Ria

Edited by Ria
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You can't compare the best of one world with the worst of another, unless you're also acknowledging that there actually are well-qualified, imaginative teachers ("Good Morning, Mrs. Toliver" and "A Touch of Greatness" are both very inspiring) who inspire in their students to a love of learning and a solid grounding in their academic area. As well as homeschooling parents who hate math and think there's no point to it.

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You can't compare the best of one world with the worst of another, unless you're also acknowledging that there actually are well-qualified, imaginative teachers ("Good Morning, Mrs. Toliver" and "A Touch of Greatness" are both very inspiring) who inspire in their students to a love of learning and a solid grounding in their academic area. As well as homeschooling parents who hate math and think there's no point to it.

 

True, but making a general statement that a C-average homeschooled kid would get F's and/or fail out of public school is somewhat ridiculous. On the other hand, maybe this comment speaks volumes about how well-prepared (or not) some homeschoolers are if/when they are placed in public school.

 

Ria

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How do you know this? Do you have personal experience? Do you know how all school districts work? To me, this is yet another homeschool myth...nice to say, easy to scare other homeschoolers with, yet based only on rumor, not fact.

 

It may come as a total shock to some of you, but "the system" can actually work with children who struggle to learn. Believe it or not, many schools have dedicated, caring teachers who work hard to help children who have difficulty learning, and have systems set up to catch these students and give them the help they need to succeed.

 

Case in point: in our district, kids in elementary school test four times a year in math just for placement purposes. Yep, four times a year. The kids who are having difficulty are put into a different class so that they can get the extra help and more detailed instruction they need to succeed. The kids who sail through math are in the quicker class. Yes, by the time the kids get to middle school there are three tiers: kids ready for pre-algebra in 6th grade, kids ready for 6th grade math, and kids who are at about a 5th grade level. Again, in middle school the kids test (annually at this point) and are placed accordingly. By the end of 8th grade (our last year of middle school) students can be finishing Algebra 2 or finishing 7th grade math, depending on how they have progressed. The goal is to work with the kids beginning in elementary school so that the students can complete three years of math in high school (to include algebra and geometry).

 

Not all kids are going to end up taking AP calculus by the time they graduate, but in our district all kids will make it through high school math.

 

Ria

 

That is true in good districts I am sure, but my county has a 20% dropout rate - in some subgroups it is as high as 36%. Those 20% are not getting high school math. The dropout rate is the same in PA from what I have found. (The next district over which is considered the best in the state has a 1.53% dropout rate, but I believe this is a function of the high socioeconomic level there.)

 

At the same time, in both states the highest high school math required is Algebra 1, so even high school graduates are not necessarily getting Geometry or Algebra 2.

 

Do you think that *more* than 20% of homeschooled highschoolers are not getting high school math?

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I think we're all bright enough to give a deserved pass to the parents of children who struggle despite mom doing her job appropriately for that/those child/ren. I have no problem TAKING that pass for the situation I have with one of my students. I do have a problem with people who nonschool taking that pass for their average student with no LDs who is behind because mom won't get to the kitchen table and teach them something other than how to live in filth, watch tv, and eat junk food all day.

 

 

Again, I know nothing of anyone who even approaches deserving this level of disdain.

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I do feel suggesting or actually trying to "determine" whether HSing has allowed lower standards is a sticky wicket -- that would allow a dangerous precedent.

 

 

I agree.

We've already seen what regulations do to the public school system.

If they can't have a better success rate overseeing kids that are on premise, surrounded daily by dozens of "qualified, degreed professionals" and STILL have a substantial amount "slip thru the cracks" then I'm not sure how a minimal amount of regulation even once a month is expected to solve anything.

 

The parents who respond to accountability tend to seek out those venues that need it. The parents who are homeschooling for reasons other than academics will absolutely lose their right to homeschool if their kids aren't "at standards."

 

I don't believe a child's right to be educated a particular way exceeds a parent's right to raise them according to specific standards, altho i have said previously that I do recognize an extreme point of educational neglect.

How do you know this? Do you have personal experience? Do you know how all school districts work? To me, this is yet another homeschool myth...nice to say, easy to scare other homeschoolers with, yet based only on rumor, not fact.

 

 

no, it's not a MYTH.

 

It's one of the reasons the No Child Left Behind Act was PASSED: because kids were, uh, getting LEFT BEHIND. Even then there was much discussion not on whether the NCLB Act was NEEDED, but whether that particular plan would WORK. And NCLB is simply Yet Another of the manymanymany types of regulation that has been implemented in an attempt to get schools up to their own minimum standards.

 

It's nice that your particular district seems to pump out a 100% success rate. That is NOT the case in most other schools, based on their OWN records. There's plenty of FACTS to look at in school records and studies.

Edited by Peek a Boo
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True, but making a general statement that a C-average homeschooled kid would get F's and/or fail out of public school is somewhat ridiculous. On the other hand, maybe this comment speaks volumes about how well-prepared (or not) some homeschoolers are if/when they are placed in public school.

 

Ria

 

I'm seeing LOTS of somewhat ridiculous general statements lately.

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The dropout rate is the same in PA from what I have found. (The next district over which is considered the best in the state has a 1.53% dropout rate, but I believe this is a function of the high socioeconomic level there.)

-----------------

Do you think that *more* than 20% of homeschooled highschoolers are not getting high school math?

 

be careful throwing those FACTS around. This is an idea steeped in MYTH, ya know.

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At the same time, in both states the highest high school math required is Algebra 1, so even high school graduates are not necessarily getting Geometry or Algebra 2.

 

 

Our district requires both algebra and geometry for graduation.

 

 

Ria

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Our district requires both algebra and geometry for graduation.

 

 

Ria

 

requires vs completes: two different words.

 

what's the dropout rate? how many students don't MEET those requirements?

 

also-- if the state requirement is only Alg 1, then the students failing those in your district could go somewhere else for a legitimate HS diploma.

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It's nice that your particular district seems to pump out a 100% success rate. That is NOT the case in most other schools, based on their OWN records. There's plenty of FACTS to look at in school records and studies.

 

It would be nice to see some facts from homeschooler as well. There's more regulation here in PA, as you know (mandatory testing in grades 3, 5, and 8). Parents also have the option of obtaining a PA Homeschool diploma....and the standards are pretty high for that.

 

My district doesn't have a 100% sucess rate, Peek, but they do put forth quite a bit of effort to help students. I understand that not all districts are as successful. Not all homeschoolers are that successful, either. And, as the OP said, the trend towards lower standards isn't helping homeschoolers to be recognized as viable educators.

 

Ria

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It would be nice to see some facts from homeschooler as well. There's more regulation here in PA, as you know (mandatory testing in grades 3, 5, and 8). Parents also have the option of obtaining a PA Homeschool diploma....and the standards are pretty high for that.

 

My district doesn't have a 100% sucess rate, Peek, but they do put forth quite a bit of effort to help students. I understand that not all districts are as successful. Not all homeschoolers are that successful, either. And, as the OP said, the trend towards lower standards isn't helping homeschoolers to be recognized as viable educators.

 

Ria

 

Over the years - from before i started homeschooling - i've seen that people in "good school districts" have a hard time believing/accepting the realities a lot of the rest of face in our districts.

 

That isn't meant to be "picking on" either - but it's just played out that way when talking about schooling.

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True, but making a general statement that a C-average homeschooled kid would get F's and/or fail out of public school is somewhat ridiculous. On the other hand, maybe this comment speaks volumes about how well-prepared (or not) some homeschoolers are if/when they are placed in public school.

 

Ria

 

Funny, I actually agreed with at least some of your point, yet your response indicates you thought I was disagreeing with you. I have a lot of respect for teachers (and a lot of teachers in my family!), so I am certainly not in the "all schools stink"/"no teacher cares" camp. And I graduated from a high school that has shown up in lists of the top in the country, which scares me.

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It would be nice to see some facts from homeschooler as well. There's more regulation here in PA, as you know (mandatory testing in grades 3, 5, and 8). Parents also have the option of obtaining a PA Homeschool diploma....and the standards are pretty high for that.

 

My district doesn't have a 100% sucess rate, Peek, but they do put forth quite a bit of effort to help students. I understand that not all districts are as successful. Not all homeschoolers are that successful, either. And, as the OP said, the trend towards lower standards isn't helping homeschoolers to be recognized as viable educators.

 

Ria

 

The way PEOPLE tend to work, it is logical to assume that

 

 

1. Anecdotal evidence pretty much sucks as a basis to form an all-encompassing opinion, and

 

2. If you have a certain number of people that truly want to work to see children educated in the public school system and in the public school parental world, you can likely predict similar numbers in the private and home school communities.

 

That being said, I'm not interested in seeing the homeschool community be recognized as viable educators, because the ones who have that problem are usually the folks at the NEA who reaffirm in their charter that homeschooling --period-- is not a valid form of education.

 

I'm not interested in someone else's opinion of whether my children are ready for the education provided in the real world --The Real World itself will determine that.

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Funny, I actually agreed with at least some of your point, yet your response indicates you thought I was disagreeing with you. I have a lot of respect for teachers (and a lot of teachers in my family!), so I am certainly not in the "all schools stink"/"no teacher cares" camp. And I graduated from a high school that has shown up in lists of the top in the country, which scares me.

 

I will go on record clarifying that i do NOT think "all schools stink/ no teacher cares."

 

what i DO believe is that the system itself has inherent faults both academically and socially. The social faults I find too great to subject my children to on an ongoing basis.

 

I also believe that even the best teachers are teaching w/ an arm tied behind their back: not only are they attempting to educate in this inherently flawed system, they are also trying to do so amid high student/teacher ratios, red tape, and lack of authority to implement various corrective procedures both academically and socially.

 

I would absolutely invite manymanymany teachers to come tutor my kids in my own home. That would actually be my ideal schooling situation :D

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I will go on record clarifying that i do NOT think "all schools stink/ no teacher cares."

Sorry -- I didn't mean to suggest you said this! :)

 

what i DO believe is that the system itself has inherent faults both academically and socially. The social faults I find too great to subject my children to on an ongoing basis.

 

I also believe that even the best teachers are teaching w/ an arm tied behind their back: not only are they attempting to educate in this inherently flawed system, they are also trying to do so amid high student/teacher ratios, red tape, and lack of authority to implement various corrective procedures both academically and socially.

 

I agree with this too.

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But, back to the OP's point -- which, I believe, was not about homeschool vs. public school vs. private school or bright children vs. average vs. learning disabled children or whether the government needs to regulate homeschooling more.

 

I believe the original point was that WE, the homeschooling community, seem to be cajoling those who are ill-educating their children, rather than encouraging them to step up to the plate. This is, after all, The Well-Trained Mind forum; a place where, ostensibly, we are here to learn and encourage each other within a classical education framework. To have to argue here about whether grammar or math or science or spelling is necessary ... are you kidding me? I could do that at the local homeschool co-op. I laughed when I re-read the newest edition of The Well-Trained Mind where it says

 

 

If you end up in a local group of unschoolers and you want to follow the curriculum we've outlined in this book, you may need to switch groups.

 

 

Um .... isn't that a huge section of this board now?

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There are plenty of brilliant people stuck in dead end job and barely showing up for those. Sad but true.

 

It's a Mom's job to play on her children's strengths and work on the weaknesses. If her kids are brilliant but mentally lazy, it's HER JOB to work on that - to get them to do the hard parts of academic work instead of just coasting on their innate intelligence.

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In 2007 my district's graduation rate was 56 percent. That is so dismal. I can't imagine most homeschools doing worse than that. This is with all the money they throw at the schools and all the experts and all the testing.

 

It doesn't give one much confidence! It also makes me feel like "how can a parent do worse than that". I'm sure there are parents who DO worse than that. But with a school that is being held accountable for teaching our children that is just down right terrifying. I don't worry much about the homeschoolers around here.

 

But, to be fair, I agree, that in many cases a public school is the best chance and opportunity for some kids (and parents).

 

We homeschoolers are heavily regulated here in NY. My biggest beef about that is that it is not meaningful.

 

Your district may seem less "dismal" if you consider the term 'drop-out rate' a little differently.

 

It normally simply refers to the number of students who do not graduate from the high school in which they were enrolled as freshmen (or sophomores, depending on your district).

 

This 'dropout' number includes any students who transferred to other schools. Once the student leaves a district, that district cannot track them to see whether they graduate. The student may have gone on to graduate, or may have 'dropped out' of education.

 

Areas with lots of apartments have lots of families moving frequently, and their 'dropout rates' usually reflect that.

 

It may be more helpful when considering a district's success to learn what percentage of students who stay in the district take upper level math, or 4 years of foreign language, or attempt to pass an AP exam -- something like that.

 

Or, your district may be truly dismal and actually have 44% of their students leaving school permanently. I'm just pointing out that 'dropout rates' aren't always what they seem to be.

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But, back to the OP's point -- which, I believe, was not about homeschool

vs. public school vs. private school or bright children vs. average vs. learning disabled children or whether the government needs to regulate homeschooling more.

 

I believe the original point was that WE, the homeschooling community, seem to be cajoling those who are ill-educating their children, rather than encouraging them to step up to the plate. This is, after all, The Well-Trained Mind forum; a place where, ostensibly, we are here to learn and encourage each other within a classical education framework. To have to argue here about whether grammar or math or science or spelling is necessary ... are you kidding me? I could do that at the local homeschool co-op. I laughed when I re-read the newest edition of The Well-Trained Mind where it says

If you end up in a local group of unschoolers and you want to follow the curriculum we've outlined in this book, you may need to switch groups.

Um .... isn't that a huge section of this board now?

 

Ooooh, good point! And great way to get the discussion back on target. There is a lot of coddling towards unschoolers on the board. Laying out how unschooling can work for your child is one thing, saying that you and your kids sleep in until 11 yet they can't write a paragraph, or that you have taken months off to clean your house, is another.

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no, it's not a MYTH.

 

 

No, it may (or may not) be a falsehood but a "myth" is:

 

A traditional story, typically involving supernatural beings or forces, which embodies and provides an explanation, aetiology, or justification for something such as the early history of a society, a religious belief or ritual, or a natural phenomenon.

 

The vulgarization of our language has to end. :D

 

It's a Classical Education forum...standards please

 

Bill

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But, back to the OP's point -- which, I believe, was not about homeschool vs. public school vs. private school or bright children vs. average vs. learning disabled children or whether the government needs to regulate homeschooling more.

 

I believe the original point was that WE, the homeschooling community, seem to be cajoling those who are ill-educating their children, rather than encouraging them to step up to the plate. This is, after all, The Well-Trained Mind forum; a place where, ostensibly, we are here to learn and encourage each other within a classical education framework. To have to argue here about whether grammar or math or science or spelling is necessary ... are you kidding me? I could do that at the local homeschool co-op. I laughed when I re-read the newest edition of The Well-Trained Mind where it says

 

If you end up in a local group of unschoolers and you want to follow the curriculum we've outlined in this book, you may need to switch groups.

Um .... isn't that a huge section of this board now?

 

:iagree:

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We've already seen what regulations do to the public school system.

If they can't have a better success rate overseeing kids that are on premise, surrounded daily by dozens of "qualified, degreed professionals" and STILL have a substantial amount "slip thru the cracks" then I'm not sure how a minimal amount of regulation even once a month is expected to solve anything.

.........................

It's one of the reasons the No Child Left Behind Act was PASSED: because kids were, uh, getting LEFT BEHIND. Even then there was much discussion not on whether the NCLB Act was NEEDED, but whether that particular plan would WORK. And NCLB is simply Yet Another of the manymanymany types of regulation that has been implemented in an attempt to get schools up to their own minimum standards.

 

Our county is an excellent example of this. We have a very low failure rate on the SOL tests. From September to March the kids are taught to the test; children who obviously need help to pass it recieve intensive instruction. "At risk" children go to summer school so they'll pass the next year.

 

If you have an especially bright or motivated child who really wants to learn, that child is pulled down to the lowest common denominator. Talented & Gifted pull-outs are based on grades and behaviour, not on ability. Accelerated students are really out of luck until jr and sr high school. Until then, if they do make it into the gifted program (testing for which is not available until 3rd grade), it's really just a heavier work load.

 

Over the years - from before i started homeschooling - i've seen that people in "good school districts" have a hard time believing/accepting the realities a lot of the rest of face in our districts.

 

That isn't meant to be "picking on" either - but it's just played out that way when talking about schooling.

 

 

This is very true. Because our county schools do so well on testing, the general public turns a blind eye to drugs in the middle school unless the children are caught red handed and it makes the news.

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Sometimes I wonder why people post here when they clearly disagree with the philosophy and methods outlined in The Well-Trained Mind.

 

....maybe because we enjoy being part of a large, active online homeschool forum and weren't aware of any rules to the contrary? ;)

 

There *are* quite a few of us here who are not classical educators - including our family. Of course, I recognize that this board is predominantly families of the classical method and that many of the cirriculum specific threads will make that evident (which is why I hang out in general much more so than K-8 - my curriculum choices & suggestions mightn't help a classical family), so I'm not surprised or bothered by most of this thread. (Wait - someone who said they could see mandatory testing as a good thing - my response to that? NO FLIPPIN' WAY. :D /tangent ) ...I do expect that classical educators will have different intentions, goals, whatever, and conversations will reflect that.

 

It does sadden me, though, to see some of the remarks about families who do things differently. Just because a method & educational philosophy is right for one family doesn't mean that it would be the ideal for another family....it's one thing to believe in what you're (general you) doing with your children and to believe that it's fantastic & working wonderfully for them - but the monkey has a different tail when it turns to cutting down, quite harshly at times, the ways that other families do things.

 

Just my nickel and a half. Gotta watch what I spend cuz Starbucks owns me. :tongue_smilie:

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This is not a drop out rate. This is the graduation rate. Isn't that different? I admit, the stats are confusing.

 

 

The statistics are very confusing, and the same school can have widely varying 'dropout rates' depending on which definition is used.

 

Here's a great article if anyone is interested:

http://www.ncset.org/publications/essentialtools/dropout/part1.2.asp

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....maybe because we enjoy being part of a large, active online homeschool forum and weren't aware of any rules to the contrary? ;)

 

There *are* quite a few of us here who are not classical educators - including our family. Of course, I recognize that this board is predominantly families of the classical method and that many of the cirriculum specific threads will make that evident (which is why I hang out in general much more so than K-8 - my curriculum choices & suggestions mightn't help a classical family), so I'm not surprised or bothered by most of this thread. (Wait - someone who said they could see mandatory testing as a good thing - my response to that? NO FLIPPIN' WAY. :D /tangent ) ...I do expect that classical educators will have different intentions, goals, whatever, and conversations will reflect that.

 

It does sadden me, though, to see some of the remarks about families who do things differently. Just because a method & educational philosophy is right for one family doesn't mean that it would be the ideal for another family....it's one thing to believe in what you're (general you) doing with your children and to believe that it's fantastic & working wonderfully for them - but the monkey has a different tail when it turns to cutting down, quite harshly at times, the ways that other families do things.

 

Just my nickel and a half. Gotta watch what I spend cuz Starbucks owns me. :tongue_smilie:

 

Great post that sums up my feelings on the matter. :)

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Do you think that *more* than 20% of homeschooled highschoolers are not getting high school math?

 

Homeschooled? They are usually getting at least basic high school math. But of those that claim to be homeschooling? I wouldn't doubt it was over 20% for the number of teens not getting high school math. I wouldn't doubt if it were considerably higher than 20%. In my area, I'd be more surprised if 20% were getting enough maths to test into college level algebra (or higher).

 

I love homeschooling, but I'm very disappointed in what I've seen in my community and heard from people in many other areas.

Edited by 2J5M9K
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One can liken homeschooling -- overall, not state-by-state -- to an "unregulated industry". There is no homogeneity for content standards, performance standards, for attendance standards, nor for anything at all. The NEA hostilely and implacably wishes to exterminate us homeschoolers for this reason. We and our children are not "formula-fed, formula-driven, formula-manufactured" government-regulated clones.

 

To apply Christian terminology to education, homeschoolers enjoy free will.

 

Dangers abound in this chaotic education situation. I live in a state where one can do nothing at all, and allege that the family is homeschooling. The blessed flip side is that one can provide so stellar an education to ones children, that state standards collapse, gasping in the dust far, far behind.

 

In other states, one may homeschool, after the requisite number of "hoops-and-barrels" are jumped.

 

I am neither libertarian, Republican, nor of any other political persuasion. My viewpoint persists, nonetheless, that my children belong first to God, then to my husband and me. Their religion and their education are the inalienable rights of our private family.

 

I'm as opinionated as any bulldog on the block. (This post proves that ! :ohmy: ) Thus I'll experience my own "wondering" about some of the education viewpoints espounsed by some other families. I may even consider another family extraordinarily wrong and harmful to their child(ren). Yet to remain consistent with my belief in personal freedom, I have to back-off and allow the same freedom to other families which I insistently claim for my own.

 

This is NOT "an easy topic". The original poster has triggered a productive thread. Thanks !

 

I included the above in full because I agree wholeheartedly with the post, but I also have reservations overall about the face of Homeschooling in, say, another 10 years.

 

I had started a similar thread sev months ago and I've been around for a while and have known some original homeschooling families from the infant days of homeschooling. Things have, indeed, changed.

 

It is a reality that there are families out there that emphasize just about everything else in life but academics. And there are families that I know that pulled their kids out of school because they had a fight with some public school teacher, and now their kids aren't nec getting much of an education, period. Too many family interruptions, etc, always way behind and taking months (not weeks) off from school, etc... I can tell you other stories, but you prob know plenty, already. And the yearly reviewer is very forgiving to the point that anything you do is good enough (I know, I use her to satisfy the county's requirements.)

 

I'm also concerned about some of the curriculum out there. People use it because its so easy that Johnny just excels at it (I.E. not challenging at all for Johnny.)

 

I believe it's up to us to police ourselves. I believe that homeschooling requires a lot of discipline and work in order to be successful.

 

If we don't watch what we do, in 10 years or less the homeschool community country-wide may end up producing results very similar to the current PS system.

 

Kim

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This thread has turned into a bit of a nasty public school vs homeschool throwdown.

 

Just as there is great variety in homeschool situations, there is also great variety in public school systems. I believe if we put PA public schools up against TN public schools (or at least West TN public schools; I can't speak about the whole state) those cheering for the public schools would have reason to pause and reconsider.

 

Many of us do not have access to wonderful public schools filled with gifted and enthusiastic teachers. Many of us have access to a system that lets kids into it's one and only academic magnet by lottery and every other student is just out of luck. In my county, access to the best depends on where your name is on a list with preference given to students who are on the free lunch program.

 

I almost sent my flute playing daughter to a fine arts magnet and backed out at the last minute. One month later they found a loaded gun in a kid's locker. There was a huge controversy because they did not put the school on lockdown and they did not alert parents.

 

I tried to get my other daughter into the academic magnet for high school, but we were too far down the list. She went to the large highschool we were zoned for instead. She has stories that would curl your hair. Things that went on in bathrooms. Things that went on in the parking lot. Things that went on under the teacher's noses. The final straw for her was the day they cut AP English and when the students affected by the cut went to the principal's office to politely beg him to reconsider, they were yelled at and threatened with detention.

 

If I were raising kids in PA I might be enthusiastic about public schools, but here in West TN I have a more dismal outlook. I figure I can't do a whole lot worse than the local offerings, and I can do it without anyone walking in on a hookup in the restroom.

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