Frustrated with HS community enabling itself to lower standards...

[Sahamamama]

It is only a matter of time before someone sues their parents for neglecting their education. Next is suing the state for not enforcing proper education.

 

;) Of course, many of us who were "educated" in the public schools could do this, too -- sue our parents and/or the state for not enforcing proper education! Honestly, how much did my parents really know about what was going on (or not going on) at school? They did not know or inquire, they simply sent us, believing education would somehow happen. And honestly, how proper was the education the state provided for our generation?

 

Perhaps it is only a matter of time before someone who was poorly educated at home sues his or her parents and the state for educational neglect. On the other hand, it may be only a matter of time before someone who was poorly educated in public schools sues his or her parents and state for educational neglect.

[Impish]

I'm glad I'm reading this thread now, as opposed to a few months ago, lol!

 

I'm a fairly 'new' homeschooler, despite being at it now for almost 3 yrs. I say that because we're still (or I'm still) figuring out what style of hsing works for our family.

 

Pulling Diva out 2/3 of the way through gr 3 was a complete gong show. Her school books were mostly blank, had no clue where she was at academically. So, did the best we could to try and 'catch up' to where we thought she should be, and then ran the basic skills assessment test, which she tested out grades beyond her standing...which was nicely reassuring, :lol:

 

The next year, we mostly continued the 'school at home' gig. Neither of us was particularly pleased with that, but I was still too nervous to really strike out on my own and decide what was right for her.

 

By the end of last year, I'd had enough of it. So, we went the complete opposite direction, and tried 'Natural Learning' aka 'unschooling'. Yeah...that doesn't work for us. Basically, unless I insisted on something, nothing was done. Diva was perfectly content to veg. So, about the new year, I put my foot down, and started implementing structure, which would have Natural Learning shudder, but I felt was needed.

 

Next year, we're doing TOG. Diva herself has agreed that she feels better with a clear structure and outline for learning, and she doesn't like the Natural Learning process at all.

 

Honestly, I feel that this year has been a waste, academically. We could have done far more than we have, had we figured out that classical education was the fit for us from the start, but we didn't. Diva has done math, but the wrong curric, and is bored. She's an avid reader, and so that's at least one area I'm not scared about. She needs more 'formal' instruction than I've given, but we'll work on that yet. Science she's doing cellular bio, so not worried terribly about that either. We've been spending the last few months, and will likely stretch through July supplementing and catching up what has been missed by exploring 'Natural Learning'.

Sooooo, from someone that's been trying to figure out where her family fits in the homeschooling spectrum, and worried about meeting standards, this thread might have had me curled up in the fetal position a few months ago, thinking I'd screwed up royally, lmao!

 

Course, I still need to get my hands on TWTM...;)

[Sahamamama]

This also happens in school. I have a friend whose dc learned nothing in second grade because both the teacher and the aide went out on maternity leave and they had incompetent subs for the rest of the year.

 

Yes, and prior to having our children, I worked in a school that couldn't even GET subs, let alone get competent ones. :glare:

[Bee]

They failed. The court said it was not the school's job to provide an education. Attendence at school is mandatory legally. But legally, the school is not required to educate the child.

[Pamela H in Texas]

How do you do that without *judging*, lol?

I'm not being flip...I'm sincerely curious...if you're determining "neglect", how do you do that without judging? Evaluating? Comparing?

It's making a judgement on what's acceptable or not.

Isn't it?

(This honestly isn't argumentative or anything...I hope it's not taken that way.)

 

:) I didn't take it that way. It shows that either I didn't explain well or you didn't read well :) I didn't say she didn't judge ANYTHING. I said that this thread, imo, wasn't about judging STYLES. Relaxed is a style, but nonschooling is neglect and SHOULD be, imo, unacceptable. As I said, there is a difference. And I took the OP to be saying that homeschoolers should call one another on that rather than encouraging it further.

 

For example, there is a poster here (actually more than one) that has explained her situation, talked about it several times, it hasn't gotten better in years, etc. When she said more about it for the umpteenth time, I suggested that she's gotten suggestions and lots of shoulders in the past but that she needs to get a handle on this one way or another. I also suggested school as an alternative. Some people think that her kids are better off at home NO MATTER WHAT even though she talks about all these issues with herself, her children, their circumstances, their choices, their schooling. She has regularly fallen into nonschooling because of the situation. It is neglectful to NOT educate your children. I'm SORRY that her situation has been so desperate and problematic. I'm sorry for some of the things they're dealing with. But in the end, the children, bright kids, deserve an education and for years have not gotten it.

 

BTW, I don't really have a problem judging situations. It allows me to 1) determine where *I* want to be and 2) help people decide what's next when they ask. We ALL judge each other's situations. Most of the time, we might think, "oh" and nothing more. Sometimes we might thing, "whatever works for them." And other times we decide, "that is sad." I try to not have much of an opinion about things or think "whatever works for them." But when things obviously AREN"T working for someone (as well as is obviously working REALLY well), I do judge them as such.

Edited May 3, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Audrey]

Low standards are why my kids aren't in public school in the first place.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[ciyates]

There is actually a lot of very good scientific data that points to the advantage of delayed reading and math. I have also spoken to people who have doctorates in Education and are Superintendents of school systems and they confirm that there are stages in development (due to how our brains are wired) that the school systems does not introduce any new concepts. My 13 year old aced a fairly normal math curriculum and when we went into Algebra he looked at me like he had never heard the concept of multiplications. After a lot of research and counsel from those who have been there before, we decided to repeat 8th grade math. Is he behind? No, due to his birthday he would have only been in the 7th grade anyway. I am hoping I can find the resources to post in the next few hours but if not I did want to make this point. It is really up to the individual. I know people who will toss out the lesson plan in times of need with their kids (being it emotional or physical). I have a friend whose daughter is a Junior and hasn't had Algebra. Is she behind? No, she is a classically trained violinist who has been accepted into a fairly prestigious orchestra and will go to a college that supports that. If her music career does not turn out like she plans she will become a music teacher. She will be able to get by just fine without Algebra. We are not all meant to go to college. Some of our wonderful, bright children will take up a trade. Imagine the horrors :tongue_smilie:.

 

And for the comment that will really stir the pot...at some point in the child's life they have to become responsible for their own education be it in HS or PS setting. If, as a parent, I do not fulfill my duties to education my son to the best of my ability, then I will meet that judgement. However at some point my son has to look at what life dealt him and move on. He must educate himself where I fell short.

 

Having said my peace I ready to accept the flogging. Please be kind!. :001_smile:

[Audrey]

They failed. The court said it was not the school's job to provide an education. Attendence at school is mandatory legally. But legally, the school is not required to educate the child.

 

 

:001_huh:*blink*:001_huh: School not required to provide an education? Oooookay... I guess I owe my local town school an apology for saying that the best education they could provide was p*ss poor at best.

 

Apparently, p*ss poor is far more than they're even required to give.

[clementine]

nm

[LizzyBee]

If someone is asking the question "is it okay that my 10 yo is not doing x?" then simply by virtue of them asking the question, we can realize that there is probably part of them that feels that the answer is no. So perhaps we other homeschoolers would actually be more kind by giving her the motivation that she needs to change, rather than soothing her with reassurances.

 

Am I off base?

 

For that kind of question, maybe we should give our fellow homeschoolers more encouragement in the direction of, "No, that's really not okay. Here are some suggestions for working on that skill." But going back to one of the questions in the OP's post, "Can I take this week off because life's been crazy lately?" -- I have met some IRL moms who really do need someone to tell them that a week off from formal schooling will be more productive than a week of homeschooling when they're stressed out with some life circumstance. Often they are newish homeschoolers who are trying too hard to stick to the schedule and not giving themselves any flexibility. So when the question is asked on the board, I suppose I automatically judge that question in the context of moms I know IRL, and if I respond, I'll say yes, it's ok to take the week off. I usually assume also, that if someone's asking "permission" to take the week off, it's not something that's occurring on a regular basis.

[LizzyBee]

If you're worrying and trying and pushing, then you aren't the example I'm making here.

 

 

Yabbut, my whole point was that all the worrying I've done has been unnecessary and counterproductive. It has sucked the joy out of our home and homeschool. I was totally serious when I said I'm trying really hard to get over it. :001_smile:

[calandalsmom]

I guess Im very lucky. I don't know these people with low standards who coast and laze and fail to teach their children.

 

I don't know enough of the message board community well enough to discriminate one of you from another so can't even say I have seen a lot of these enablers or slackers.

 

Primarily I focus on me and my kids and OUR needs and try not to tell other people "NO" because that isn't my job.

 

 

Of course Im thinking of using parts of core 1 next yr with a smart smart 9 yo so what do I know.

 

Furthermore, Im with Andrew Pudewa when he says if you do math and read to your kids, chances are they stay up to par or beyond.

[WTMCassandra]

I think this whole question rests on the overresponsible vs. the underresponsible. The overresponsible (like me) needs permission to human and take a break once in a while. Those with a tendency to be underresponsible need to be gently encouraged to stay the course. So I think it's easier for people to misunderstand and talk over and around one another if they assume other people are just like them ; ).

 

And yes, I'm concerned that there are lots of people who are not taking their responsibility as seriously as I think they need to take it. And I'm also concerned about what will happen to MY freedom if too many people use theirs as an opportunity to be lazy. However, that is not what I generally see on this board.

[lionfamily1999]

I think some of the 'sure, take a week off' stems from assuming the best. I assume that a parent who is at their wit's end has been teaching their dcs all along and further assume that a week off will give mom/dad the time they need to fix their schedule and the dcs a week to decompress.

 

I will admit, when I read about older kids that don't read or are really far behind, I don't comment. I don't comment, because I have nothing..... positive to say and, imo, negative comments don't do too much more than spur on more negative comments.

 

I want to agree with the OP, but there are so many *special* cases that I can't. The purpose of hsing, imo, is to teach your dcs in the best way possible, everything you think they need for adulthood. If some find that reading is minor, then, as much as I cringe to type this, that is their opinion, they're teaching their own dcs and it's not for me to say they're wrong.

[Karen sn]

My dd did not read even close to calling it "reading" until she was 10.

Now at almost 12 she reads for fun, all the time, and always before bed.

She did not know more than verb and noun at the begining of this year (January) and at present knows all parts of speech and has memorized them. She can recite all the basic prepositions (40 plus).

She can also count back change better than most adults and practically all the kids her age.

 

Behind schmind.

You'd have to watch soaps all day long, never read to your kids, never go for a walk in nature, never let them earn and spend money, never have a thought provoking conversation to really be "behind."

 

We school year round and whenever we want.

We break whenever we want.

We certainly looked "behind" two years ago and now look right on time.

 

The only homeschoolers who are as you describe are the lazy ones.

And I fear that would be the case even if they went to school because let's face it - the only kids in school doing well are the ones who have parents that have the time to sit with them and work on hours of homework.

[Jill- OK]

But I have to be honest...

 

Relaxed is a style, but nonschooling is neglect and SHOULD be, imo, unacceptable. As I said, there is a difference. And I took the OP to be saying that homeschoolers should call one another on that rather than encouraging it further..

 

This kind of thing makes me uncomfortable.

 

Why? Because, sure, the things she mentions (a 10yo not writing--I'm assuming composition, not "Cannot Form Letters"--doing math two levels below peers, or being six weeks behind) wouldn't be my preference, for our family...but neglect? Seriously?

 

And...unacceptable to whom? (Who? Whatever, lol.) The homeschooling community "calling one another out" could morph as it goes from person to person. One person's "unacceptable neglect" could be another person's "lazy but within the bounds of acceptable", obviously. Determining where "relaxed" ends and "neglect" ends could have unexpected results, for some folks.

 

I'm one of the staunch advocates of freedom, and I live in a state with no government oversight of homeschooling. At. all. And out of all the homeschoolers I know (and believe me...in real life and cyber, I know a lot)...I don't know anyone that's turned out a total nonlearner. There's no crisis in our state from adults who are undereducated, and reliant on the government, because of having been homeschooled. (And homeschooling has been around in Oklahoma since the drafting of our state constitution, probably the reason why it's the only one--to my knowledge--that mentions it.)

 

There are plenty of non-homeschoolers who would love to see homeschooling regulated more (or outlawed), and while I know that those here who are talking about 'oversight' or 'accountability' are probably talking about an informal type, betwixt companions...it still makes me nervous. Makes me nervous to think that some well-meaning mom would support enacting legislation where there was none before because of a concern about "other people".

 

And I know that not all homeschoolers feel that way (about freedom of education with no government oversight)...just as not all homeschoolers keep kids home for educational reasons, solely. I support their right to feel that way.

 

But I think we cease to be a "community" that can police itself when we don't share certain values/standards, that's all. Maybe not altogether...but if we're not on the path for the same reasons, it may eventually diverge for us, you know?

 

I know you guys probably aren't talking that deeply, or far ahead...but that's what these sorts of conversations are linked with, in my head.

 

I may be wrong! (I often am! LOL!)

 

For example, there is a poster here (actually more than one) that has explained her situation, talked about it several times, it hasn't gotten better in years, etc. When she said more about it for the umpteenth time, I suggested that she's gotten suggestions and lots of shoulders in the past but that she needs to get a handle on this one way or another. I also suggested school as an alternative...She has regularly fallen into nonschooling because of the situation. It is neglectful to NOT educate your children. I'm SORRY that her situation has been so desperate and problematic. I'm sorry for some of the things they're dealing with. But in the end, the children, bright kids, deserve an education and for years have not gotten it.

 

I hear you...but that sort of ongoing situation wasn't what I was hearing described in the OP. Her single examples didn't ring that bell for me.

 

I have no problem suggesting school as an alternative to someone, if there are dire circumstances...but I'm not as comfortable as other folks here with relying on examples from people I only know (via their own words) from an internet message board.

 

Don't get me wrong; I "know" people from here...because I've communicated/met/talked on the phone with them off of this site, as well. I don't know that reading posts, even for a few years, a relationship makes. The kind of relationship where you could accurately judge the whole of someone's situation. And I would have to have a relationship with someone to make really hard calls like that. (I hope that's not going to make anyone really upset with me, lol. Sure, I toss out advice on here just like the next person...but we're talking about something extremely serious here, to me, anyway, almost like marital advice. It's tricky.)

 

BTW, I don't really have a problem judging situations. We ALL judge each other's situations.

 

Oh, believe me...I know, and I do, too, lol.

 

I just prefer that we keep it open, you know? Not try to sugar coat something, just call it what it is. Embrace that you're judging folks. :-) (Trying to insert a little levity, since I feel so passionately about this, and worry that it's coming off really strong.)

[redheadeddaughter]

with such great interest. So much contribution on an important topic, and so varied. I find myself agreeing with conflicting posters, and then reading on to find my opinion swayed again.

 

What I haven't seen is anyone point out that "education," especially a good one, is a privilege and not really a "right." It's also a relatively new privilege that is now afforded to a much higher percentage of the population than ever before. I'm not sure that this increase in "education" has truly given us more intelligent citizens who can contribute in individual meaningful way than when parents were entirely responsible for everything in this regard (or outsourced it). I love homeschooling classically. BUT, I think for an awful lot of kids and their families, a college prep type educational plan is just plain silly. And more importantly, I think that the education of the heart is just as important as schooling the mind... and in this regard schools are doing a terrible job (no matter how great the teacher, kids are being influenced much more by their peers). Our local district has 41 students in the first grade class - and 1 teacher (parents are supposed to rotate through as helpers). In fact, these institutions are taking up nearly all the time we, as parents, have to influence our own children. They even want to serve them breakfast.

So...

For me, I have an incredibly rigid schedule that I plan to follow. It's old fashioned and exciting to me. Both my husband and I have graduate degrees and the higher level academic stuff is just plain interesting to us.... we want to share that with are kids.

But... for the neighbor next door who unschools and her daughters dance beautifully and they do alot of lapbooks and spend time hanging out at the library (and much more I'm sure). It works for them and her daughters have warm hearts and talent!

I just feel that "generally" when parents take the reigns of their children's education it is superior. In every sense of the word. I have never met a homeschool mother who didn't care about her kids education. I have met many who worry about it all the time. It still takes courage to stike out and homeschool these days. I think most need to be encouraged in their attempts. We are are learning, yes?

 

Just my thoughts.

[Jill- OK]

One can liken homeschooling -- overall, not state-by-state -- to an "unregulated industry"...

 

I live in a state where one can do nothing at all, and allege that the family is homeschooling. The blessed flip side is that one can provide so stellar an education to ones children, that state standards collapse, gasping in the dust far, far behind.

 

I'll experience my own "wondering" about some of the education viewpoints espounsed by some other families. I may even consider another family extraordinarily wrong and harmful to their child(ren). Yet to remain consistent with my belief in personal freedom, I have to back-off and allow the same freedom to other families which I insistently claim for my own.

 

This is NOT "an easy topic". The original poster has triggered a productive thread. Thanks !

 

Great points.

 

And yes...not an easy topic at all...but I love having these conversations! (As long as they stay civil and logical, anyway...which I'm sure this will.)

[LizzyBee]

I guess Im very lucky. I don't know these people with low standards who coast and laze and fail to teach their children.

 

 

Homeschooling is very, very popular in my area. Our homeschool association fluctuates between 200-250 families, and I know tons of other homeschoolers outside of that particular assn. And I don't know one. single. family where the children are not being taught. Maybe that's why I didn't read the OP and assume she's talking about families where there is no education happening. It's just not on my radar.

[Sunshyne]

But I have to be honest...

This kind of thing makes me uncomfortable.

 

Why? Because, sure, the things she mentions (a 10yo not writing--I'm assuming composition, not "Cannot Form Letters"--doing math two levels below peers, or being six weeks behind) wouldn't be my preference, for our family...but neglect? Seriously?

 

 

 

Jill,

 

I love your honesty! Thanks for contributing to this thread because I see your points. Really, I do. I also realize that I provided some pretty weak points of reference this morning in my original post. It was just the latest few in a series of posts over the past few months. Not necessarily here, and not by the same poster, mind you.

 

I happen to know several homeschoolers who have dropped the ball, and so that certainly colors my opinion.

 

I agree with you in that it's important to pay respects to the freedoms that we have, and to hold those freedoms to the highest regard. By the same standard, I think we should probably make every effort not to abuse those freedoms. Who defines when those freedoms are abused? I'm not sure. I just know that sometimes I hear of people being so dismissive by virtue of homeschooling, that it makes me uncomfortable. So, I posted about it.

 

I concede, however, that I probably didn't give the best examples. Yet, in the same breath, I say that sometimes it's those little things I posted (and all those "it's okay, honey" responses that follow) that are just the beginning of what eventually becomes an apathetic/lacking homeschooling experience

[Jill- OK]

with such great interest. So much contribution on an important topic, and so varied. I find myself agreeing with conflicting posters, and then reading on to find my opinion swayed again.

 

 

...a testament to the intelligent, articulate posters on both sides! :001_smile:

[Jill- OK]

You're a gracious gal, Sunshyne, and I'm glad you brought this up. Good grown-up conversation!

 

Jill,

 

I love your honesty! Thanks for contributing to this thread because I see your points...

 

I also realize that I provided some pretty weak points of reference this morning in my original post.

 

I agree with you in that it's important to pay respects to the freedoms that we have, and to hold those freedoms to the highest regard. By the same standard, I think we should probably make every effort not to abuse those freedoms.

 

I wouldn't say your examples are weak...it's just a microcosm of what you hear, I get that.

 

I'm with you on not abusing the freedoms, too. It can be hard, to navigate the balance, but I think it's worth it to hash these things out from time to time.

 

We all learn things, I think.

 

And now...I'm off to watch Cops! ;-) (Don't judge me, y'all...)

[Kelli in TN]

I've been doing this crazy home edukashion thang since 1991. It does not make me any better at it than anyone else, but it does mean I've seen a lot of interesting things along the way. I can count on one hand the number of families I have seen that I thought were truly doing their children a disservice by keeping them out of school. In fact, I can count those families on one hand and have 3 fingers left to spare!!!

 

I have not agreed with the approaches that many families took and have butted heads on occasion with other homeschool parents over methodology, but at the end of the day I believed that those parents were still providing an adequate or better education for their children.

 

I think we just need to really be careful here. When we see a mom who is falling down on the job, if we honestly care about her and her children we could look for ways to come alongside her and help her through the rough spot. Usually it is a temporary thing. I think the families who chronically undereducate are few and far between and yet, at least in my school district, the number of students being undereducated by the system seems pretty high. I wonder if we did a study how the percentages of undereducated students in homeschool settings might compare to the system's undereducated? I have a theory that the system might produce the higher percentage of undereducated students.

 

I have often fallen short of what I wanted my children to accomplish, but I have never failed them the way the public school system failed me.

[Kelli in TN]

What amazes me is that I have met some homeschoolers who appear to be several bricks short of a solid structure and their kids are thriving and doing quite well. It doesn't seem to take as much to succeed as I would have imagined.

 

Luckily I haven't met anyone who dropped the ball.

 

Dang. Have we met? That sort of describes me and my poor offspring.

[Pamela H in Texas]

When I say call someone on it I mean one of two things. The first is that the person is asking, like the OP said. The other is that the situation is so severe and they chose to share it that it's a NICETY to be honest.

 

I don't mean going around and judging each other freely. What I believe can be significantly different than what someone else does. A person that does 5hours of schooling with a 6yo is DEFINITELY going to find issue with what I would do with a 6yo. And a person that unschools will also. We couldn't win if we're expected to live by everyone else's standards.

 

But I think we're doing the CHILDREN a huge disservice when we don't call foul whether it's a school or a parent. Seems people don't have too much trouble saying it when it's the school, but when it's a parent, they hold their tongue to the EXTREME.

 

And I'm still bothered that posters are discussing particular cases of real homeschooling families that CHOOSE something different or have a different style. Some children learn certain things later. Some kids focus on other things and have less of certain other things. That is how it is.

 

Oh, and I DO agree that at some time the kid has to start taking responsibility for his education. I wouldn't guess anyone would believe otherwise. I just think the majority of us believe we're to give our kids a decent foundation.

[Jill- OK]

Dang. Have we met? That sort of describes me and my poor offspring.

 

::Jill scratches her head and taps her chin, trying to remember if she knows a "Wendy"...:::

 

:lol:

[WTMCassandra]

Dang. Have we met? That sort of describes me and my poor offspring.

 

Now, now, tell the truth! I don't believe that for a minute, reading the curriculum list in your sig!

[Sahamamama]

They failed. The court said it was not the school's job to provide an education. Attendance at school is mandatory legally. But legally, the school is not required to educate the child.

 

:001_huh: Wow. Oh, wow. Uh... what IS the school's job, then? Warehousing the kids? Thanks for posting this. Do you have a link, I'd love to read about this case. TIA!

[lionfamily1999]

When I say call someone on it I mean one of two things. The first is that the person is asking, like the OP said. The other is that the situation is so severe and they chose to share it that it's a NICETY to be honest.

 

And I'm still bothered that posters are discussing particular cases of real homeschooling families that CHOOSE something different or have a different style.

 

 

I edited your post down, to make it easier to see my point, lol. It's extremely difficult to call someone on this, because one person's choice is another's neglect. While I agree, they ask, they open that can of worms, I'm not so sure about the honesty/nicety part. An honest opinion is still an opinion and obviously, if I feel like a ten yo should be reading and they apparently didn't until the day they decided to post, we already have a difference of opinions. IOW, a dissenting opinion can usually be seen as a difference of style... seems like a pointless cycle to jump into. So, why call them on it, if it's not going to make a difference either way, except that you could get deleted... and I like being here.

[Kelli in TN]

Now, now, tell the truth! I don't believe that for a minute, reading the curriculum list in your sig!

 

Oh, but I use things that, at least here, would make me a likely candidate for slacker of the year. Apologia high school science? Teaching Textbooks high school math? I can't tell you the number of times that I have avoided threads on these boards out of shame and fear that I would not be taken seriously because of my low standards.

[Sahamamama]

I think this whole question rests on the overresponsible vs. the underresponsible. The overresponsible (like me) needs permission to human and take a break once in a while. Those with a tendency to be underresponsible need to be gently encouraged to stay the course. So I think it's easier for people to misunderstand and talk over and around one another if they assume other people are just like them ; ).

 

And yes, I'm concerned that there are lots of people who are not taking their responsibility as seriously as I think they need to take it. And I'm also concerned about what will happen to MY freedom if too many people use theirs as an opportunity to be lazy. However, that is not what I generally see on this board.

 

Well said. :iagree:

[WTMCassandra]

Jaw dropping.

 

Do you know the name of the case or a citation I might look up? I'd like to see exactly how a judge worded this decision.

[Stacy in NJ]

Um...have you been on these boards long, lol? I can think of more than a few folks *here* who would (and have) responded similarly when there are conversations like that, on the WTM board.

 

I don't know that I agree, though.

 

We've homeschooled all the way through, and my two oldest are 10th graders now. There have been years when we've done precious little (due to births, deaths, moves, and other life crises), and I've bitten my nails a bit.

 

But I don't put them in school, we press on, and make up the difference later. As I like to say..."We make hay when the sun shines, and then we eat it when it rains", lol.

 

You can't know everyone's home situation. There are homes where, if the kids aren't sitting down in front of a workbook, they may not be learning. They may actually be falling behind, if they aren't actively moving ahead. There are other homes where learning is such an integral part of life that the kids could do precious little, in the way of sit-down academics, and still be better off than many.

 

I think that people tend to respond to others according to their own perceptions. My dad called it "Projecting your own autobiography onto someone else's picture show". What that means is that when a nervous mom asks, "Should I put the kids in school? I'm 8 months pregnant, tired to the bone, we haven't done school in three weeks, and I can't see myself sitting down and teaching anywhere in the near future", one mom might say, "Absolutely put them in school! You can always homeschool later; your kids aren't getting an education now, and they deserve one."

 

Another might say, "Hey...in a few months, you're going to be back just like you were, and you can make it all up. Relax and let everyone enjoy just being together for a while."

 

Both could be speaking from their personal experiences, without knowing what that *particular* individual really is doing/thinking/accomplishing.

 

My kids are on par (one of them is performing a grade level ahead), and we've taken enough breaks to make many of the die-hards on this board swoon, lol. I *know* several here would have emphatically recommended that I put my kids in school, for their academic health, at several junctures in our homeschooling career.

 

But I know (and suspected then) that it was a marathon, not a race, and the one that lags behind in the beginning (or the middle...or even close to the end) can come from behind and win. Slow and steady. (Steady being the key word; a time of doing nothing is different than having that as your sole mode of operation).

 

I'd much rather encourage youngish moms (or those simply new to homeschooling) to focus on making their home a place where kids can learn all the time (fewer screens, more books/interactive toys/educational games/tools for imaginative play), rather than hyperfocusing on outside timetables. Unless public school is in your future, or you don't have a plan to homeschool for the long run and therefore need to have your kids ready at a moment's notice to go into 'regular' school; then you do need to stick to that timetable.

 

Also, if you have a long range plan, and your own developed educational philosophy, I think you're much less likely to fall and stay "behind".

 

Just one gal's opinion.

 

I loved your post, Jill. Very thoughtful.:001_smile:

[Kelli in TN]

Maybe we have. I wanted to say "can I huge you?" after I read your other post. :001_smile:

 

Oh, please don't. I am huge enough already!!!:lol:

[Stacy in NJ]

Well, not completely.

 

If you are able to teach a child self discipline, persistence, consistency, a moral framework, then you've done much to insure their future success as a human being.

 

Their IQ, along with other intangible qualities of human personality, is going to significally impact their educational outcome. And that you cannot control regardless of the type of education you provide. They are genetic.

 

Children do not come to us as unmolded clay.

 

Yes, what we do does influence outcome, but science shows it is less than most of us know or want to believe.

 

I encourage everyone to google "University of Minnesota adopted twins study".

[laylamcb]

 

Yes, what we do does influence outcome, but science shows it is less than most of us know or want to believe.

 

 

 

Wow, Stacy: When you put "Abandon hope" in your sig, you really meant it. :001_huh:

 

:D

[Peek a Boo]

I do disagree with you. I don't homeschool for superior reasons. I really don't care how my children compare to public or private school students. I never think of them as being ahead or behind. Even in the event that the children would have to go back to a b&m school, it wouldn't matter if we did try to keep up with the average grade level because the content and abilities vary from school to school.

 

And fwiw, Sonlight Core 1 is okay for a 10 year old. Core levels are NOT grade levels. Experienced Sonlight users will explain that. Take a look at the Sonlight catalog. Core 1 is designed for ages up to 12. And, the main History spine for that level is A Child's History of the World which was written for Calvert School's 4th grade level. It's really a bit much for a 1st grader, IMHO. See, we all have our own opinions. :)

This is not a homeschool-only problem. Nor would I even characterize it as a pervasive problem with homeschooling.* Our Sunday paper headlined the abysmal AP passing rates for our county. Apparently, nearly 30% of the students taking AP classes couldn't read at grade level. :001_huh: While the number of kids taking AP has tripled in the last three years, and 80% pass their AP courses, only 23% *passed* the AP exam. That was just today's paper. In this city. I understand your angst, but be careful about what you are assuming both about the homeschooling community and the public school community.

 

Lisa

 

*Meant to add, that spending a week at our regional speech and debate invitational tournament certainly colors the *type* of homeschooler I've been exposed to of late.

 

:iagree:

 

There IS a huge spread in what is educationally and age-appropriate wrt child development, and that's even WITHOUT "learning disabilities."

 

The homeschoolers who share the "yes, it's ok, don't worry so much" do realize that there is more at stake in a child's life than "just academics."

I don't homeschool for academics-- I homeschool for social reasons. And like GretaLynne mentioned in another thread, I'm sure the OP's and Ria's definitions of "doing great in public school" would probably look VERY different from mine :).

 

My 6th grader would NOT be able to write a decent paragraph. His spelling is AWFUL. He is still developing penmanship skills that are buried deep down inside him. But he has an extremely quick analytical mind, solid grasp of scientific concepts, and can BUILD all kinds of things. I am content to let him progress slowly wrt his penmanship. His reading has just recently taken off in the last couple years.

 

My oldest had BEAUTIFUL penmanship but HATED writing. It wasn't until he jumped the mental wall a couple years ago that he would voluntarily write more than a few sentences. Now i can't get the kid to STOP writing, and it's not nearly as neat!

 

I would only consider a case of educational neglect if a parent was intentionally STIFLING their child: no access to books, internet, or other resources, period. Otherwise, if a child is happy and healthy, that will prepare them for a LOT of the most important life skills that the public school WON't.

[Peek a Boo]

If you are able to teach a child self discipline, persistence, consistency, a moral framework, then you've done much to insure their future success as a human being.

 

Their IQ, along with other intangible qualities of human personality, is going to significally impact their educational outcome. And that you cannot control regardless of the type of education you provide. They are genetic.

 

 

aha! i shoulda just waited for you to post that.... :)

[KidsHappen]

Oh, please don't. I am huge enough already!!!:lol:

 

 

You are too funny. :lol:

[Catwoman]

I would only consider a case of educational neglect if a parent was intentionally STIFLING their child: no access to books, internet, or other resources, period. Otherwise, if a child is happy and healthy, that will prepare them for a LOT of the most important life skills that the public school WON't.

 

Certainly, happy and healthy are the most important things we can hope for in our families, but simply having access to books and educational resources isn't enough to educate most children. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of kids won't ask to learn many of the subjects they will need if they ever want to be fully functioning adults.

 

Personally, I want my ds to have a good education so that, when he is older, he will be able to pursue any goal he may have. It's no secret in our family that college and grad school are pretty much expected, and if our son is going to be able to get into the schools of his choice, I need to do a lot more than provide him with access to books and resources. If, at some point when he's older, he chooses different goals for his future, that will be ok, but he will be prepared for the most ambitious options.

 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I have known a few homeschool families that didn't set any educational goals for their kids... and those kids are now grown and working in menial jobs. And it's hard to be happy, healthy adults when you're stuck in a dead end job with few or no benefits and little hope for advancement. In my opinion, those kids were as bright as anyone else's, but their happy-go-lucky homeschooling moms really messed up.

 

Again, sorry if I sound harsh, but I hate to see kids with potential end up ill-prepared for the real world when they grow up because their moms didn't bother to prepare them academically.

 

Cat

Edited May 4, 2009 by Catwoman

[Karenciavo]

Making excuses for being years behind, for not teaching science during the grammar stage, for switching from one math program to another, year after year, with no forward progress is just that - an excuse. Excuses do not educate a child.

 

I make no excuses for not teaching science in the grammar stage, it's not a priority at that age. My older two are doing more than fine now that they have begun.

[Karenciavo]

Their IQ, along with other intangible qualities of human personality, is going to significally impact their educational outcome. And that you cannot control regardless of the type of education you provide. They are genetic.

 

Not a very democratic view. :D

[Mama Lynx]

I make no excuses for not teaching science in the grammar stage, it's not a priority at that age. My older two are doing more than fine now that they have begun.

 

Me, either, and my children are very science-literate.

[Peek a Boo]

Certainly, happy and healthy are the most important things we can hope for in our families, but simply having access to books and educational resources isn't enough to educate most children. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of kids won't ask to learn many of the subjects they will need if they ever want to be fully functioning adults.

 

...and I've seen plenty of kids ask quite a bit about subjects they have not been introduced to ;)

 

we do have lots of historical examples of people who DID take the initiative to learn. Many times it wasn't so much that someone taught them, but that someone provided the resource to LET them learn.

 

Personally, I want my ds to have a good education so that, when he is older, he will be able to pursue any goal he may have.

 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I have known a few homeschool families that didn't set any educational goals for their kids... and those kids are now grown and working in menial jobs. And it's hard to be happy, healthy adults when you're stuck in a dead end job with few or no benefits and little hope for advancement. In my opinion, those kids were as bright as anyone else's, but their happy-go-lucky homeschooling moms really messed up.

 

Again, sorry if I sound harsh, but I hate to see kids with potential end up ill-prepared for the real world when they grow up because their moms didn't bother to prepare them academically.

 

I tend to agree, which is why I was speaking about what I would consider educational NEGLECT [mentioned in a previous post], not educational ideals. :)

 

I also hate to see kids with potential end up ill-prepared for the real world when they grow up because their schools -public, private, and homeschool-- didn't bother to prepare them academically or socially. I would like to see a study exploring how incarcerated young adults were educated.

[Annie Laurie]

 

I have another friend who has HS her kids all through, and they are brilliant. However, she's made no forward progress with them for the past 2 years. What?!?!? I'm sure she has plenty of people who say, "Oh I'm sure they're learning. They're FINE." No, really, they aren't.

 

The lack of accountability can be staggering sometimes...

 

 

 

You know, on the one hand I find your comments vaguely comforting, because I'm getting tired of people in the hsing community (on other boards) telling me that I'm doing too much with my younger kids and implying that I'm pushing them and the like.

 

But I can't really agree with your post. The part of your post that I quoted illustrates the problem I have with it- how do you know that your friend's kids have made no forward progress, by whose yardstick? Who gets to decide what learning is and how it should be done? And I don't like the implication that without oversight, adults can't be trusted to have their childrens' best interests in mind and know what those are more than anyone.

[Kelli in TN]

I make no excuses for not teaching science in the grammar stage, it's not a priority at that age. My older two are doing more than fine now that they have begun.

 

I'm glad you mention this. I used to beat myself up over our this very thing. We are very hit and miss on science during grammar stage. It is just not a priority to us. From 7th grade up it is, but before that I am satisfied with exposure to science and nature. Occasionally I will use a curriculum, but mostly I grab interesting library books and have them read them with absolutely no output required.

[Stacy in NJ]

Wow, Stacy: When you put "Abandon hope" in your sig, you really meant it. :001_huh:

 

:D

 

 

That wasn't really the type of hope I had in mind when I added it to my sig. Perhaps I should alter it to read "Abandon all change". And I'm not talking about quarters. :D

[usetoschool]

duplicate

Edited May 4, 2009 by jcooperetc
duplicate

[usetoschool]

Well, not completely.

 

If you are able to teach a child self discipline, persistence, consistency, a moral framework, then you've done much to insure their future success as a human being.

 

Their IQ, along with other intangible qualities of human personality, is going to significally impact their educational outcome. And that you cannot control regardless of the type of education you provide. They are genetic.

 

Children do not come to us as unmolded clay.

 

Yes, what we do does influence outcome, but science shows it is less than most of us know or want to believe.

 

I encourage everyone to google "University of Minnesota adopted twins study".

 

Didn't see the post that your post may have been in response to, so not picking on you, just using your post as a jumping off point. The topic reminded me about an article I read last week regarding IQ/genius and how malleable it may actually be - don't know that I completely agree in that I think people are born with some level of "smarts" but I just thought it was interesting food for thought.

 

Genius: The Modern View

[Sunshyne]

You know, on the one hand I find your comments vaguely comforting, because I'm getting tired of people in the hsing community (on other boards) telling me that I'm doing too much with my younger kids and implying that I'm pushing them and the like.

 

But I can't really agree with your post. The part of your post that I quoted illustrates the problem I have with it- how do you know that your friend's kids have made no forward progress, by whose yardstick? Who gets to decide what learning is and how it should be done? And I don't like the implication that without oversight, adults can't be trusted to have their childrens' best interests in mind and know what those are more than anyone.

 

Did I imply that "without oversight, adults can't be trusted to have their childrens' best interests in mind?" I *am* a homeschooling mom, afterall. Of course I believe we can chose what's best for our children! I also believe that what we sometimes envisioned may not be what happens. I believe that sometimes we can lose focus, and when we turn to our peers, they may simply encourage us to continue down that path which is probably not really the best choice.

 

Ironically, back to the friend I mentioned in my OP- If she asked what I thought, I'd probably be hesitant to tell her my honest opinion. It's HARD to talk about! Yet, it's truly important.

 

Most people have a yardstick of some kind. Like it or not. It may be your curriculum that you measure by, or your own educational experiences, or the progress in your co-op. There must be some way to have measurable progress or lack thereof. Perhaps my yardstick isn't the same as yours. However, if you're hanging out in the same Singapore math book (3a for example) for 2 years (but golly, Sue sure can cook and dance!) then something isn't right. Yardstick or none.

 

The problem lies in communicating such things, particularly when asked... Again, that would be hard...