Do schools in general expect too much or too little?

[Mommy22alyns]

Not political, just wondering about everyone's observations on public schools in general (especially since I have no experience since my own).

 

On one hand, I hear that a lot is expected of K kids now compared to many years ago and that it's "the new first grade." Some parents feel pressured and concerned if their child doesn't attend preschool - they might be "behind."

 

On the other hand, I hear about kids who end up bored in K after a couple of years of preschool (regardless of the type of preschool). They know their letters and colors and don't need to re-learn them, but that's what the class is learning. I've heard a LOT of instances like these - do I just end up hanging around parents of super bright kids (online, that is)? Surely not that many kids are at that level of intelligence - but the other conclusion is that kindergarten is "too easy."

 

 

So I'm wondering what you all think - and K is just my example because I'm around a lot of online moms who have kids the same age as mine. Feel free to add your opinion for any other grade.

[joannqn]

I believe, from my own schooling experience and the results I see in the kids themselves, that public schools have very low expectations of kids in the areas of both behavior and academics. I'd be much more likely to consider public school if I felt schools expected (and got) good behavior from the kids and excellence in academics. I'd also want students to be taught at their level; let the well-behaved and smart kids fly rather than hold them back.

[Carrie12345]

I think they expect too much of young children in general (while trying to hold back those who are advanced) and way too little of older children. You can't win for losing.

[Rosie_0801]

I think they expect too much busywork and not enough deep thought and meta skills. Social studies is a good example of that. They should be teaching the disciplines, not a mish mash of mostly unrelated stuff. No wonder the kids can't see the relevance.

 

Rosie

Edited March 19, 2009 by Rosie_0801

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that schools have a fairly high expectation as far as skills go. I think they have a very low expectation as far as content (real knowledge, in my opinion) goes.

 

Now - as to expectations go - one of the problems in schools is what do you do when someone doesn't meet the expectation? In years past, you didn't pass to the next level until you had met certain requirements. Now you pass to the next level no matter if you met the requirements or not.

 

And from a former teacher's perspective: what do you do when you are asked to meet certain expectations with your class but many of the students who have been assigned to you have not met the pre-requisites for your grade? You will have students who do not speak English, students who were just passed on to the next grade even though they hadn't mastered the material in the class before yours, students who have certain disabilities which make it really difficult for them to master the subjects in the time allotted. . .

 

So there you have high or at least acceptable expectations from the schools - and a certain percentage of students who meet those expectations - but many who don't.

[H.S. Burrow]

Not political, just wondering about everyone's observations on public schools in general (especially since I have no experience since my own).

 

On one hand, I hear that a lot is expected of K kids now compared to many years ago and that it's "the new first grade." Some parents feel pressured and concerned if their child doesn't attend preschool - they might be "behind."

 

On the other hand, I hear about kids who end up bored in K after a couple of years of preschool (regardless of the type of preschool). They know their letters and colors and don't need to re-learn them, but that's what the class is learning. I've heard a LOT of instances like these - do I just end up hanging around parents of super bright kids (online, that is)? Surely not that many kids are at that level of intelligence - but the other conclusion is that kindergarten is "too easy."

 

 

So I'm wondering what you all think - and K is just my example because I'm around a lot of online moms who have kids the same age as mine. Feel free to add your opinion for any other grade.

 

 

My honest opinion and personal observations: it depends on the district.

 

Where my sister teaches (and where I went to school) is a better school district than where we live.

 

Where my cousin lives there are a lot of magnet schools and K is pretty tough in that area.

 

If we lived in either of those areas, we would probably send our kids to public school.

 

But we don't. Our local schools seem to lower the bar each year. Teachers do not receive the math curriculum they are to teach until the Friday before they begin (they get a new "unit" each 6 weeks) and the students have no math books. There are not enough textbooks for science in high school or junior high......if you want a book at home, you must buy your own.

 

And for the record....I live a fairly well-to-do town with a population of about 15,000. Lots of doctors & lawyers here.

 

So, it depends on the school district where you live....IMO.

[linders]

(big generalization), it seems that we expect too much too early for many kids, and not enough later. I really think many 5-6 year olds just aren't ready for the rigor and structure of what school looks like nowadays (even if they can handle the academics), but by the end of elementary school in the US seems a bit dumbed down compared to what friends' children in Europe receive. I am always taken aback by school there - at least one foreign language is de rigeur, more classic reading, more writing, and math seems more accelerated no matter what "track" they are in.

 

Again, lots of exceptions and laternatve opportunities, bur the generalization is one reason we homeschool.

[MrsMe]

They expect too much, too soon, nothing later on and no skills on how to think only what to think.

[LizzyBee]

I think they expect too much of young children in general (while trying to hold back those who are advanced) and way too little of older children. You can't win for losing.

 

I agree. When my older kids were in elementary school, kindergartners were expected to compose and write 3 sentences independently. Some kids were quite capable of this, but many were not. OTOH, I am surprised at how little is expected of my 9th grader. She is taking honors classes and still breezing through. The schools in our area are purported to be some of the best in the country and my dd's school is supposed to be one of the best in the area; it is good, just not as rigorous as I had hoped.

[Perry]

I think they expect too much of young children in general (while trying to hold back those who are advanced) and way too little of older children. You can't win for losing.

:iagree:

 

My 8th grader went back to school in January. She is having difficulty with French, but only because she has lots of trouble with spelling. Otherwise, she is sailing through her classes doing almost no work. In Language Arts, they are reading Hoot (4th grade reading level) and watching the movie. They spent a month on the book Drums, Girls & Dangerous Pie, (6th grade reading level). She read it in one evening, and the teacher was very irritated because she wasn't supposed to read ahead. For the final grade on the unit, the kids were supposed to give a "party" for the characters, with invitations and cake. She thought it was ridiculous. She has written one one page paper in 3 months. She has a French test every week, but otherwise almost no homework.

 

What amazes me the most is that this is supposed to be one of the best school districts in the state, and Iowa is supposed to be known for excellent schools. If this is the best we can do, we are in big trouble.

[Wildiris]

I think that schools have a fairly high expectation as far as skills go. I think they have a very low expectation as far as content (real knowledge, in my opinion) goes.

:iagree: Schools do have high expectations, or at least my son's public high school does, yet the teachers seldom teach the skills necessary to meet these expectations. My son did not enter the public school system until half way through seventh grade. I waited for his middle school teacher to introduce skills which would help him in high school. Part of my reasoning for sending him to school in the first place was to obtain the skills necessary to succeed in high school. It did not occur, nor did occur when he reached high school where the teacher's expectations of organization and note taking skills were an assumed.

 

I also agree with Jean that the content of what is learned is not high. When my son was still in middle school and we had parent/teacher conferences, the teacher was impressed with my son's ability to draw conclusions and find the interconnectedness of a topic(s). Apparently that was not something emphasized in school.

 

The expectations of kindergartners is huge these days and the expectations continue on through the grades. It seems the expectations are more about being competitive in the global market place than learning history and reading deeply about what it means to be human. Here in California eighth graders are now expected to complete algebra 1 before high school. Will this work? Are the kids ready? The charter school I home school through is filled with kids in need of remediation after coming from the public school setting. Finally, It seems to me that there are a lot of loft ideas and goal with beautifully modeled outcomes when it comes to education, but there is an enormous gap in realizing those goals and ideas when a teacher is face with the realities of a classroom full of kids that don't fit the model.

[elise1mds]

I think the schools are experiencing pressure to teach more and more at an earlier age, but when it comes to public or even private schools, parents often fall behind in preparing their kids for this rigorous education. I'm not pointing fingers, but I imagine we all have met a few parents who believe the schools should teach their kids everything. My children's preschool teacher summed it up very well last year - she said that half the class knew everything and the other half of the class knew nothing... and it was just about true! My son and about eight others were ready for reading, spelling, and other kindergarten curriculum by Spring Break at the latest; the other half of the class was still practicing writing their names. It's tough on a teacher because there's no way to teach a class like that and be able to challenge everyone properly. You either have to hold back the ones who are ready or leave behind the ones who aren't - in the end, someone always gets frustrated. I think schools in areas where parents are able to spend the time with their kids wind up being the better schools. I also have no personal experience beyond kindergarten, so take this FWIW.

[Ria]

I'm pleased to say that our district expects a lot, but gives the kids the skills with which to accomplish those goals. I have high expectations of my kids, and said I'd never put them in school unless I knew the school could do a better job than I could. I'm impressed. I still expect a lot from my kids, and I look over what they are doing. I'm pleased to say that in most cases they are meeting or exceeding my expectations....and I'm a tough teacher/grader.

 

Ria

[Targhee]

I think they expect everyone to be at the same level, which is too much for some and too little for others. I think they expect a lot in the way of institutional skills (example: 5 year olds carrying their lunch trays from one end of the school back to their classroom on the other - without spilling or getting distracted, or lost), and not enough in terms of concepts (I could go on and on about math here...:glare:). I think they are expecting things in the wrong order - 6-8 sentence organized paragraphs, including compound sentences, for 1st graders (too much) when the same group of kids' only instruction in spelling is a random list of 12 words each week in a take-home packet without classroom instruction or reinforcement (not even a spelling test) - too little.

 

Having been a public educator, I think the demands placed on the school system are unattainable. The schools, since we believe everyone attends these :tongue_smilie:, are the "safety net" for societal problems, with educators expected to replace (at least in part) parents, grandparents, neighbors, community leaders, and all sorts of other people in cultivating functioning members of society. The schools can't do it all - it takes a village (not just the school)

[Reya]

Too much homework.

 

Too much time.

 

Too much repetition.

 

Too much busywork.

 

Not enough quality, purposeful work.

 

Not enough conceptual work.

 

Not enough thoughtful work.

 

Not enough BEST work.

 

Basically, there's an enormous amount of time and effort sunk into very poor results.

[Peela]

I think schools are a confused mess.

But it's hard to compare K and grade 1 because kids are all at such different stages of development at that age. I know kids who could read and write by 1st grade, in my son's class- yet he couldnt by mid 2nd grade, and there were several other boys like him.

Schools seem to cater to the lowest common denominator in many cases. In my son's 2nd grade class however, the teacher catered to the bright, academic girls and the boys were left far behind, drowing and lost.

Considering what children in general learned and were capable of in previous generations and centuries- fluent Greek and Latin just as entry to university- youve probably seen the exam papers etc- I would say overall, schools are dumbed down.

The best system I have seen so far is the IB, but I am no expert at it. If there was an IB school close and at a reasonable price I would actually consider putting my older child into it. I like their programs and I believe they have an internaitonally high standard. Which is different from a local high standard.

The school system in my state in Australia has been a mess for years- its definitely been worth homeschooling. They are talking about a national curriculum- and, shock horror, are even considering chronological history!

[Erica in PA]

I think they expect too much of young children in general (while trying to hold back those who are advanced) and way too little of older children. You can't win for losing.

 

:iagree: In the younger years many schools require way too much of little children that is not developmentally appropriate without laying a foundation first. And because that foundation has not been laid, they are not able to expect the level of work from middle school on up that they could. If you think of it in terms of classical education, it seems to me that a lot of logic level work is expected of elementary school students (i.e. why questions, explain connections, etc.), and then a lot of grammar stage work for middle school and high school students (i.e. simply gathering information from textbooks wthout much further thought). There may be a lot of *work* in high school classes, in terms of number and length of assignments, but the difficulty of the work is not what I would want for my dc at those ages. Many college professors (including SWB) have expressed frustration with the level of work their students are now able to do coming in, and I think this is why.

[Chris in VA]

My dd's experience of 3rd grade--

They keep her all day, from 8:30 until 3:00, roughly, yet she still comes home with a page of math, a spelling assignment, a "read for 15 mins" assignment, and sometimes a health packet or science project or social st project. Why can't they do enough in the time they are given?

So, I feel the "amount of homework" expectations are too high.

 

OTOH, the 12 biographies and related book reports she got for social studies last quarter were too easy. She timed herself (gotta get those 15 minutes in...This is a child who adores reading) and it took her 8 minutes to read each book, with only 2 or 3 exceptions. The book reports were "just the facts" types, not in depth at all.

So, I feel the "type of homework" expectations are too low.

 

I don't know. I just get a knot in my stomach when I think of her staying. There just isn't a way they will meet her needs. I guess I have to look at each individual child, and each child's individual skills/readiness/knowledge, to see what's too high or too low. Because it's a group teaching situation, I think it's one of those questions that you can answer generally, but a general answer won't really matter--it's all about each child's experience.

[Sunshyne]

I took my sons out of PS after Christmas. They attended for 1.5 years. I saw very little forward motion in their academics. My 4th grade son was doing less than he did in 3rd grade, never had homework, and was pleading with me to homeschool so he could learn again.

 

My first grade son was in a terribly managed classroom, and was not learning anything. Period. It was sad because the only highlight of his day was when he'd see his kindergarten teacher in the hallway!

 

We are all much happier now that they are home.

[Karen sn]

: In the younger years many schools require way too much of little children that is not developmentally appropriate without laying a foundation first. And because that foundation has not been laid, they are not able to expect the level of work from middle school on up that they could.

 

Yes! They rush through the basics to get ready for the almighty standardized test and the rest of their time is spent on mindless busy work (worksheets that even I have a hard time figuring out what they want!).

By the time they are in middle school they have really learned nothing but they do have excellent test taking skills.

[Snickerdoodle]

I think schools do exactly what they are designed to do (a la Gatto).

[Kathy in MD]

9 years ago my ds's Montessori teacher (preschool) was complaining about the demands of public school kindergarten. This was a woman used to teaching preschoolers and kindergarteners how to read - IF THEY WERE READY! She also typically taught the children for three years to prepare them for reading. Her complaints were that the public schools and some private schools were demanding a 1st grade curriculum from children that were less developmentally ready in half the time (most still had half day kindergarten still). There was no time for rest or snacks or play time. I remember having all three in the primary grades. Whe also said that at least 1/2 of all kindergarteners should have be retained but were promoted. I think the kindergarten problem has only gotten worse, except that many areas now have all day kindergarten.

 

As far as the upper grades are concerned, I believe a great deal depends on the school district and if the student is interested or not in school. Our district is extremely demanding for those students (or those with pushy parents) wishing to excel. We have magnets for all interests and IB programs available. AP courses are pushed heavily. One district graduate, now an author and reporter, returned to her old high school and spent time with the students. Only ten years later, she found the demands on the top college bound students to be much higher than she had. She admitted that if she had gone to school recently, she wouldn't have had time to spend on the school paper or other extra curricula activities.

 

OTOH, those students who have given up on school are generally allowed to slide through. With the new state tests requiring certain basic courses to be mastered, things have gotten a bit tougher on them, I believe. But I would expect that some are still sliding through with poor reading skills.

 

For the poster who was complaining about how much better the schools were a hundred or even 50 years ago, I need to point out that only a relatively small number of individuals even attended high school 100 years ago. A hundred years ago my ds would have sat in the corner wearing a dunce cap and probably wouldn't have lasted a year. Even 50 years ago, the teachers would have given up on him at an early age. He would have been a major trouble-causer, been harassed by teachers thinking he just wasn't trying, and ridiculed by classmates. He would have dropped out at a very early age. But even children with far fewer LD's or fully capable but not interested would not have lasted through high school. My grandfather was a wiz in math, but couldn't hack English. He dropped out after the 8th grade. Today he would have gotten his high school diploma and possibly gotten into a science and math field in college or at least a technical degree. Seventy years ago, my father was slipping through high school with D's and F's, until his junior year when HE decided to get to work. He instantly became an A and B student. Given his intellegence, he probably still wasn't working too hard. So remember, when you look at the great work turned out by high school students or even 8th graders a hundred years ago, you're looking at a very tiny portion of the population. Even those who lasted till the 8th grade was a relatively small proportion.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Kathy in MD
grammar and spelling errors

[katemary63]

I will answer you with my experience at our "very good school district" public high school. I went to my son's 9th grade teacher/ parent "conference" . I talked to his history teacher who told me that ALL his tests are open book. I asked why. He said, "Well, I have so many kids that don't come to class I figure, if they do come to class on test day, they might have a chance of getting some points if the test is open book." I pulled both my kids from this school the very next day and put them in a private school with higher standards and expectations.

 

I agree with many who have said that the expectations can be too high at the K level, but are too low ( in our case, non -existant) in the upper grades. Also, my DD was in "the honors house". Her teachers expectations of her were quite high. She got an excellent education. My son was in the "regular" house and I have no problem saying that most of his teachers didn't give a rip what an individual student accomplished. I had one of my son's Jr. High teachers call me to tell me he had 16 missing assignments. SIXTEEN! I asked her why I was only just then learning about this???? She told me it's the first she knew because she hadn't counted???? WHAT?? I went to school the next day and told her this was HER fault and not his. ( of course he got in trouble and had to make up all the assignments) but for her to do NOTHING until there were 16 missing assingments was ludicris. ( she hadn't said anything to him either!) She agreed and apologized and let him make everything up which he did. But is that good teaching??? Did she care about my DS? Not.

[Haiku]

I think that schools (especially in the younger grades) expect too much that is developmentally inappropriate and not enough that is truly intellectually challenging.

 

So, both.

 

Tara

[KathyBC]

Both. The educational system, in my estimation, regularly puts the cart before the horse. As SWB notes, they begin having children writing more and more at younger and younger ages. But this rarely produces any depth of thought. This same characteristic - students producing at a younger age, but very superficially - can extend to reading instruction and math, as well. My .02.

 

~Kathy, who is off to read the rest of the replies now

[amsunshine]

In the younger years many schools require way too much of little children that is not developmentally appropriate without laying a foundation first. And because that foundation has not been laid, they are not able to expect the level of work from middle school on up that they could. If you think of it in terms of classical education, it seems to me that a lot of logic level work is expected of elementary school students (i.e. why questions, explain connections, etc.), and then a lot of grammar stage work for middle school and high school students (i.e. simply gathering information from textbooks wthout much further thought). There may be a lot of *work* in high school classes, in terms of number and length of assignments, but the difficulty of the work is not what I would want for my dc at those ages. Many college professors (including SWB) have expressed frustration with the level of work their students are now able to do coming in, and I think this is why.

:iagree: In my district, in kindergarten, the schools expect the students to read 20 mins each evening, yet they don't teach phonics in an organized or systematic fashion. They also favor the development of comprehension before decoding words. They ask the students to write during their "writing center" time. Yet they don't give them any systematic instruction on how to write letters or numbers.

 

In first grade, it gets a little better as at least spelling lists are introduced with an accompanying phonics rule to learn, along with a few sight words. However, the time spent in the classroom enforcing those phonics rules is little to none. Also, our district has required a ridiculous amount of testing starting in first grade for assessing the kids. No one seems to have a good answer as to what the district is going to do with these assessments. The testing takes so much time away from time teaching, the teachers seem frantic to actually be able to teach the material they are required to teach. They ask the first graders to write original poetry and lots of multi-sentence paragraphs, without copywork, memorization or grammar.

 

There also seems to be almost an obsession at my school to integrate technology into the classroom. There's always such a hoopla about the new computers and the new computer programs they are buying with monies raised by the PTA. Don't get me wrong -- I think technology is great as a supplement to learning -- I just wonder why there seems to be so much emphasis on technology as opposed to actually teaching basic skills like writing and phonics. And in math -- they teach money before the kids learn to add and subtract to 100. So the kids who don't understand how to add and subtract with numbers to 100 flail.

 

This is one of the best schools in our district -- our api is over 900. There is a lot I love about the school, but a lot that just makes me go :confused:.

Edited March 19, 2009 by amsunshine
spelling error

[laughing lioness]

I just finished reading The Chosen by Chaim Potok (thread on the high school board). What really struck me was how ingrained education was in the lives of the characters. Granted the characters are brilliant, but the description is of a culture that values and produces brillance. I blogged about it here.

 

http://goldengrasses.blogspot.com/2009/03/chosen.html

 

Checking out 2 million minutes, etc makes me realize that the government schools in the U.S. are not educating (but they are doing what they were created to do, in agreement with Snickerdoodle) but that I need to step it up, too. This means being educated myself, stop being lazy about things I'm intimidated by, etc.

[Veritaserum]

Too much busy work. Too little individual thinking. :)

[Stacy in NJ]

Both.

 

It really depends on the school district and the community it serves.

 

My general observation is that ps in affluent areas tend to have high expectations. They teach reading in Kindergarten and expect fluency in first grade. They typically push-down academics. This reflects the standards of their community where many of the parents are professionals with college degrees. Red-shirting (holding back one year for Kindergarten) is common.

 

Ps's in less affluent areas usually reflect the academic standards of their community.

 

This isn't to say that the affluent schools are all that much better at teaching. Those kids come from homes that are academically inclined, parents read to their kiddos, use more sophisticated vocabulary, and expose them to positive outside influences like private music lessons and museums. Probably the outcomes for these kids is more reflective of their home lives rather than simply their schooling.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Haiku]

My son and about eight others were ready for reading, spelling, and other kindergarten curriculum by Spring Break at the latest; the other half of the class was still practicing writing their names.

 

I don't think that's a problem at all. Why would a preschool child need to be able to write their name? That's one of the problems with an academic focus in preschools: kids are all over the place developmentally (which is normal), and it's not anyone's "fault" or to their credit if a certain child is academically advanced. I could have worked with and drilled my son to the moon and back had I wanted to make him a little scholar and it wouldn't have mattered; he just wasn't there yet.

 

Tara

[AuntPol]

Schools try to be one size fits all and they end up being one size fits none. You have kids who enter K reading fluently, writing, able to do basic addition and subtraction, etc. in the same classroom with children who don't even know their colors, much less the alphabet, numbers, etc. The bright kids who had reached every K standard and probably most of 3rd then spend the rest of elementary school being dumbed down as much as possible while the lower ability kids get passed along even if they cannot reach a single standard. My dd has kids in her 4th grade class who can not count to 100 yet and that was a Kindergarten standard (whether it should be or not).

 

I think the requirements for K are too much for most kids. All day kindergarten plus homework!!! No naps and a very short recess.

 

I think there is too much pencil work in K-2 for kids, especially boys, whose fine motor skills are not developed. In later years, there are too many mindless worksheets (and I agree with poster above -I often can not figure out what they want)

 

I think they have unreasonable expectations of children -sit still, don't talk, don't ask questions, don't touch things, etc.

 

Foundational skills are weak. I've been told my our principal:

We don't teach phonics

We don't teach spelling rules

We don't teach math facts

We dont teach history other than black history

We don't teach the scientific method

 

The reward system was not about achieving goals but trying to give false self esteem to gangster kids (who already had inflated egos).