Maria/ME Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Per the conversation that was started here I thought I would bring up the idea of delayed academics.I do not wish to discuss whether or not you agree with the idea, but to see how many people follow this approach to some degree or not? I've been using this approach with Math and Grammar, particularly, and it has been a great relief and also joy to us. Relief of not feel the pressure of being "behind" in math, relief at knowing my dd(11) will still "get it" when she needs to, and joy at re-discovering math and grammar in a new way. What do you do? What have you found that works for you? Why? or Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovemy4kids Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 He was not ready at 5, nor 7, finally at 9 he began to show interest. We went at his pace. At the start of this year, he is 12, he was 2 years "behind" in math. He is now almost "caught up". He is using TT7 this year and almost finished with it. Since I consider TT to be a year behind (don't want to debate that, just my opinion), he is almost caught up. We took a lot of slack for not pushing him, but now it has worked out fine. Same thing with reading. Didn't read till age nine now reads and comprehends at a college level. Stumps me all the time. Reads science journals and stuff just because they are there and interest him. Weird kid. Blessings Sandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Indeed Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 We follow http://www.triviumpursuit.com - but no I don't think we would be considered delayed- but I guess we could be compared to the WTM standards. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Have you read Bluedorn's Book? It's a great comfort and I know that my daughter who was/is bright with math...was doing basically the same thing in math for like...3 years! With my son, I'm doing Classical Conversations, so we do skip counting. He's starting to understand multiplying. We read tons of living math books. We also just discuss math in real life. Most of our math conversations are because he'll ask..."How many quarters in a dollar?" Or, "How many ten thousands are in One Million?" Etc. I do want to work on his abacus skills...sometime... We aren't doing any written math work... And, he's reading but not writing, yet. I just don't see kids getting behind, when public schools take 6 years to get where they are in 5th grade! Carrie:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIch elle Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I increase every year until it's no longer delayed in grades 6-8. But in those grades my dc were still poor spellers - so that was delayed :tongue_smilie: Every dc is different and that's the beauty of homeschooling - do what works for your family. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbeyej Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 No, not even a little. I'd say I'm very relaxed and concerned about giving young children lots and lots of undirected free time when they're young, so they can explore and be creative... But I'm not a delayed academics person at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reya Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Per the conversation that was started here I thought I would bring up the idea of delayed academics.I do not wish to discuss whether or not you agree with the idea, but to see how many people follow this approach to some degree or not? I've been using this approach with Math and Grammar, particularly, and it has been a great relief and also joy to us. Relief of not feel the pressure of being "behind" in math, relief at knowing my dd(11) will still "get it" when she needs to, and joy at re-discovering math and grammar in a new way. What do you do? What have you found that works for you? Why? or Why not? Not a chance. If I go slowly, \math (particularly) becomes an excruciating part of the day. The only time it's fun is when it's fast. I cut down to one RS lesson a day when I had the baby, and it was TERRIBLE. Now we're back up to three, and it takes less time and no whining/delaying/misery/etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Not a chance. If I go slowly, \math (particularly) becomes an excruciating part of the day. The only time it's fun is when it's fast. I cut down to one RS lesson a day when I had the baby, and it was TERRIBLE. Now we're back up to three, and it takes less time and no whining/delaying/misery/etc. Reya, I had the exact same problem with math. I finally figured it out yesterday when I called my MUS rep. DD is bored! Could you describe your experience in this area a little more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allearia Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 We don't delay academics at all. I try to keep things at the appropriate challenge level -- a bit challenging but not enough to be frustrating, and I go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaik76 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Nope, especially not since I read Never Too Early by Doreen Claggett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Did that. I took older dd out of a Christian school during Easter break of first grade; it was at least 18 months before I bought the first textbook, and even then we only did Official School Stuff two days a week. Younger dd didn't read at her age level until she was 9½. We never finished a math book, or an English book (although younger dd did finish Easy Grammar). I did KONOS for two years but that's about the most structured I ever was. Both dds began taking classes at the community college when they were 14ish. They didn't zoom through in 2 years :-) but both did graduate, and one transferred to a state college where she earned a BA in English lit. So I guess better late than early worked for us. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reya Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Per the conversation that was started here I thought I would bring up the idea of delayed academics.I do not wish to discuss whether or not you agree with the idea, but to see how many people follow this approach to some degree or not? I've been using this approach with Math and Grammar, particularly, and it has been a great relief and also joy to us. Relief of not feel the pressure of being "behind" in math, relief at knowing my dd(11) will still "get it" when she needs to, and joy at re-discovering math and grammar in a new way. What do you do? What have you found that works for you? Why? or Why not? Oh, and I have to say, your second link is just about criminal in its dishonesty. "Today, in contrast, the most arduous efforts of our public schools cannot produce high school graduates who can compare favorably in knowledge and skills with the 8th grade graduates of 1900." Not even CLOSE. In 1900, arithmetic was the first course taught in a college mathematics program. Grammar was also taught in college--grammar that we now teach in middle school. Chemistry, biology, and physics in regular high school courses are more sophisticated than introductory college courses a century ago. Not even has history suffered--we do a terrible job of teaching students history now, granted, but we did a worse job then. I wouldn't trust anyone who starts out by lying--and this website absolutely does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reya Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) Reya, I had the exact same problem with math. I finally figured it out yesterday when I called my MUS rep. DD is bored! Could you describe your experience in this area a little more? Well, we were doing 2-3 lessons a day. I'd collapse it a little--not make him repeat things that he had down cold, abbreviate the things he found obvious, etc. (I still had him review facts for speed and stuff like that, of course!) Then, in my late 3rd trimester, I got overwhelmed and decided to back off the formal academics for a while--just do one lesson a day, just a little more thoroughly. Suddenly, math was taking twice as long, and DS was declaring that he hated it! Argh! After quite a few battles, I just said "forget it" and began doing it at our previous pace. Now he's doing three one-hour lessons in under an hour a day, and he's back to being excited about math. I've found that in RightStart C, there has been a LOT I have to condense. It gets pretty repetitive for my DS, even though I am committed to the RS approach. He "sees" things so quickly that he usually jumps over the intervening baby steps to the big picture right away. One thing I do is glance over the lesson, and if the material isn;t new enough, I just give him the worksheet and let him figure it out without it being "taught," per se. I have also learned to not make him do any calculator work--he does it all mentally or with paper and pencil because with his dyslexia, using a calculator is twnety times harder than doing it by hand, and it is FAR more likely to result in mistakes. EDIT: Singapore is just about the easiest curriculum out there to accelerate, so if you're not committed to MUS, try Singapore. Edited February 4, 2009 by Reya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawn of ns Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 My daughter didn't have formal academic work until she was 8. I expect to do the same with my son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Not delayed, exactly, but I'd say our science has not been as rigorous as some. We have piddled around with it, exploring here and there, doing some nature study, a science kit, a few weeks of this and that. We tried Apologia Zoo 3, but felt it had too much information and did not like the experiments/demonstrations. Sigh. Wanted to, but didn't. Otherwise, I'd say we a little accelerated, as I feel nearly everyone who follows WTM is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kah Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 One of the things that got me started seriously thinking about homeschooling *is* the ability to delay one subject until DD is more ready/less burned-out, while still forging ahead more quickly in other areas. I'm new to the discussion, so I don't know if that would necessarily be considered delayed academics or not, but the ability to back off from writing while continuing to progress in math, reading, and other learning is hugely appealing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Nope. I never delayed academics. Not even a tiny bit, lol. Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookieMonster Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 To me, "delayed academics" is defined by those referring to it. To some, because I do not do grammar or a formal math program with my almost five year old, I'm delaying his academics (because he can read at a beginning first grade level). Technically, he probably could handle them. But, I don't see any reason to start now. I intend to start a grammar program ala FLL when my son reaches first grade, and then continue grammar through high school. That to me is rigorous academics, not delayed. I intend to use a math program when he officially starts Kindergarten. This is not fast enough for some, and it's entirely too fast for others. To each his own. Generally though, I think those who champion delayed introduction to formal academics would find me to be too quick. I, personally, find some of their arguments to be overstated, and the inadequacies they perceive in the early introduction of academics easily overcome with some common sense changes to a standard curriculum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynful Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 We do, though I hadn't started it by choice. :) I started my son at 5 in Kindergarten; he just wasn't ready for it. So wait a year, more preschool in the meantime, and then tried again. It went better, but still not well so we just did what his brain could handle at the time. It's been that way ever since. He has to work very hard to get "it". Then I realized how easy it is to teach them when their brains are ready for "it". Math and reading have been our biggest "delayed/behind" areas. He's 11. He's doing probably 2nd maybe 3rd grade math and moving along wonderfully now. I expect him to continue this way and he tells me, now, that math is his best subject. This from a boy who used to cry as soon as the math books came out because his brain was not ready for it. Reading has been the same way. He only recently (this past week) picked up a book to read to himself and, if judged by today's standards, is way below his "grade". He is now enjoying reading and I expect him to make great strides with it this year. Would I do it again? Yes, absolutely, on a case by case basis. My daughter gets things quicker so it hasn't been as much a problem but I certainly don't push either. Knowing that they CAN catch up and it makes it so much easier to teach really takes the pressure off of me. It makes me a better teacher and more relaxed. Just our experience, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Not even CLOSE. In 1900, arithmetic was the first course taught in a college mathematics program. Grammar was also taught in college--grammar that we now teach in middle school. Chemistry, biology, and physics in regular high school courses are more sophisticated than introductory college courses a century ago. Not even has history suffered--we do a terrible job of teaching students history now, granted, but we did a worse job then. Do you have a link or reference for this info? I'd love to read more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I do to a small extent. If I find something that dd isn't ready for I'll put it off a month or two then reintroduce it. If she gets it then we move forward. If she doesnt' I'll shelve it for a few more months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2att Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 With my oldest and my youngest I don't delay academics. There's no need--they are move-ahead kind of kids. With my middle, absolutely. He's a take it slow and easy type--pushing concepts on him before he is ready just results in frustration for everyone (ask me how I know). Taking two steps back and giving a late bloomer time to blossom is the approach I've adopted, and we're having a much better year this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LND1218 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 We follow www.triviumpursuit.com - but no I don't think we would be considered delayed- but I guess we could be compared to the WTM standards. ;) I loved this book! We don't really follow it or do delayed unless needed based on that child. But I loved this book more than WTM. It's well worth reading!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LND1218 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 With my oldest and my youngest I don't delay academics. There's no need--they are move-ahead kind of kids. With my middle, absolutely. He's a take it slow and easy type--pushing concepts on him before he is ready just results in frustration for everyone (ask me how I know). Taking two steps back and giving a late bloomer time to blossom is the approach I've adopted, and we're having a much better year this year. Oh my goodness that is us! My oldest and third are doing great pushing ahead really in most area, but my second - we are taking our time. (I am just concerned right now that #3 will be reading before #2. She would be crushed if that happened. But #3 really wants to read NOW!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensummervillian Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I didn't delay at all with my son. He doesn't need a whole lot of guidance before he's doing something himself. I gently tried to help my daughter learn to read at 5 and 6, and it was clearly too much for her. Now she's 7 and she's catching on. That's not delayed by the standards of most Better Late Than Early people, but I considered it delayed because I took her abilities and maturity into account instead of pushing her. I did the same with her for math. Yes, she' is "behind", but not behind for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesiwins Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Originally Posted by Reya Not even CLOSE. In 1900, arithmetic was the first course taught in a college mathematics program. Grammar was also taught in college--grammar that we now teach in middle school. Chemistry, biology, and physics in regular high school courses are more sophisticated than introductory college courses a century ago. Not even has history suffered--we do a terrible job of teaching students history now, granted, but we did a worse job then. I understood it that in the 1900's, not every child was educated, but the education that was available was much more rigorous. What about something like this test? FWIW, I do not believe that grammar is necessary to teach until around 4th or 5th grade, and I prefer to match skills like learning to read, math and handwriting to the developmental stage my children are at. Jesi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Well, we were doing 2-3 lessons a day. I'd collapse it a little--not make him repeat things that he had down cold, abbreviate the things he found obvious, etc. (I still had him review facts for speed and stuff like that, of course!) Then, in my late 3rd trimester, I got overwhelmed and decided to back off the formal academics for a while--just do one lesson a day, just a little more thoroughly. Suddenly, math was taking twice as long, and DS was declaring that he hated it! Argh! After quite a few battles, I just said "forget it" and began doing it at our previous pace. Now he's doing three one-hour lessons in under an hour a day, and he's back to being excited about math. I've found that in RightStart C, there has been a LOT I have to condense. It gets pretty repetitive for my DS, even though I am committed to the RS approach. He "sees" things so quickly that he usually jumps over the intervening baby steps to the big picture right away. One thing I do is glance over the lesson, and if the material isn;t new enough, I just give him the worksheet and let him figure it out without it being "taught," per se. I have also learned to not make him do any calculator work--he does it all mentally or with paper and pencil because with his dyslexia, using a calculator is twnety times harder than doing it by hand, and it is FAR more likely to result in mistakes. EDIT: Singapore is just about the easiest curriculum out there to accelerate, so if you're not committed to MUS, try Singapore. That sounds a lot like DD. (She hates using the online drill too FWIW) The thing is she will still make mistakes (like calling 14 41)that make me think I am wrong. ::sigh:: Being a private tutor is hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Do you have a link or reference for this info? I'd love to read more.:iagree:This is fascinating. Didn't the people that we are emulating by following a classical mode have only 10 or so years of academics? (Benjamin Franklin, etc.) That is not 1900 though is it? A century could have changed quite a lot. At what age did they go to college in these time periods? At what age did they start academics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria/ME Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) CookieMonster made a good point about definitions and perhaps the definition (or my definition) of "delayed academics" would be in order, too. I really don't like the term "delayed academics" as the implication is that you are delaying teaching your child. And as any homeschooler/unschooler/eclectic schooler/parent knows you NEVER start or stop teaching your child. You never DELAY parenting/teaching. The main thrust of the link that I choose to use mentioned "delayed academics" in reference to waiting until a child is READY and not feeling "My child is behind!" because the definition of "behind" is a definition usually set by the state or by a system of education that we have chosen to place ourselves outside of. (Notwithstanding, that you may be in a state that requires you, as a homeschooler, to have your child "at" a certain grade level at a certain time.) You don't have to like or agree with the whole link, I was just trying to reference the idea of "delayed academics". I think that Lucidity, with...er...lucidity, gave us a good definition of how it works for her. Her example is exactly what I mean when I think of "delayed academics". This isn't to say, we don't challenge our kids or let them "slide" through knowledge. "Delayed Academics" seems to be to have more to do with as kah mentioned "the ability to delay one subject until DD is more ready/less burned-out, while still forging ahead more quickly in other areas." In our case, I could really see that math/reading(and thereby grammar) were a huge struggle for my daughter. And we didn't drop these completely but I let go of my perception of what "behind" really was. In so doing, she forged ahead in imagination, emotional development, art, history, science, nature studies, writing, music, public speaking, memorization, volunteer work, creative writing and literature. Not wasted time for us, surely!! I was able to step back and really assess my daughters needs in terms of reading,take time to find other curriculum without panic or worry. In so doing, I relaxed, WE relaxed and really started to enjoy the process of schooling. And I learned that my daughter had some vision issues that prevented her from really taking off in reading. We have addressed those and now she is "caught up" so to speak. I often wonder if I had kept her "on task" and pushed her. I was climbing up the panic hill of "behind" and every reading lesson was a crying fit. Should I push? Challenge? I"m glad I didn't. She may have ended up hating reading. Hating any subject is what I learned to do in public school! So the Bluedorns' idea of "delaying" math resonated with me. And in my daughters case, it has worked well in more subjects than one. As was mentioned in the original thread on math, this isn't to say that there might not be a child who just really "gets" math and takes off! If so, wonderful! If they love a subject we shouldn't "delay" it of course. This is not saying, either, that if your child really hates a subject, say science, we should sit back and say "Oh, okay, then we don't ever have to do science...." The link I choose to use also gets into the idea of "labels" that are given our children in the school system in particular. I have no wish to debate or discuss that aspect of the article. I was mostly interested in the thoughts expressed on "delayed academics". Perhaps I should really have linked the Bluedorns articles on delayed math HERE but I did want to broaden the idea to other subjects we teach. I've really enjoyed reading the responses, thus far! Edited February 4, 2009 by Maria/ME Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyR Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) That is interesting as well. I'm not well versed on education in the 1900's but do know that their education was much more rigorous then it is today. Many students are now graduating from high school and are unable to write a simple expository essay. Colleges spend much time reteaching things that children have not mastered in high school because public schools are busy teaching children to the TEST( state testing) that they are leaving out very important skills that a child would need going in to college. I've been busily working on my degree in Elementary Education and even in the past 14 years that I've been out of school things have changed so much. I never knew what an in text citation was or an expository essay at that. I've had to relearn to learn new things that I never encountered before. Through out the school years children are taught to write informally but are not prepared for what lies ahead of them when they enter college. I don't neccessarily believe that statement is a lie. I believe it is true to some extent. With public schools teaching children to the test they are not taught important skills that they need to enter college today. They are no longer being taught logic or even just the ability to think for themselves but are spoon fed information so their schools can meet AYP (adequate yearly progress) and can get more funding. I definitely would be interested in any references or links you may have. I am working on an essay right now about public education and would love to add this to my essay ( but need reference for my in text citation:>) Oh yes, we do not delay academics here. Currently my oldest is back a grade level then she currently should be in. But she needs more practice. I work according to their abilities. My oldest didn't really get reading until she was 9 but we continue to work through that , my 2nd started reading at 4.5 and my third is 5 and just learning to read. Edited February 4, 2009 by TracyR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elm in NJ Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 We have never delayed academics. I take it slowly in K -3 and we concentrate a lot on the 3Rs, so you can say we are a bit delayed in science and history, because if we don't get to those that day, I don't worry too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafiki Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 A lot of people get the wrong idea about delayed academics. They worry about not addressing an issue that may be there at an opportune time. They figure they can't follow similarly to the Moore's if their kid is gifted. I've had one of both and I'm SO glad that one of the first books I read was from the Moore's. At first, I was confused and wondered how it would work with my 3yo on a 4th grade level, but it really came together nicely. Then add my son with real issues. We still addressed those, but I think he really benefited by us not being schoolish in his early years. I'm so glad my kids had more time to be kids even though one was on a high school level at 7 and the other wasn't anywhere close to learning to read at 7. They had so much more opportunity to learn, to grow, to mature. Doing even an hour or three of school when they were little would have taken away from the experiences we were able to have. And when it was time for us to switch to more schoolishness, they had so much more to bring to the table than had they had fewer opportunities when they were little. I TOTALLY agree with challenging children. I totally agree with giving them opportunities, including learning opportunities. I just don't think it has to be done schoolishly....and I think it can be done both more and better if it's not schoolish. Wait, wait....that isn't true. I think that definitely was the case for my children and my family. I think it depends though. It probably mostly depends on the parent and if they can conscientiously, comfortably, confidently give their kids what it would take to make it work. If I were to have another child or two right now, I can't say I would do it the same though. Unfortunately, my circumstances are so different, that I'm not positive I could give the next two what I gave the first two. I would have to evaluate it all very carefully when they were preschoolers in order to decide what was best for our then family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto2Cs Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 We use Oak meadow as our primary curriculum, and in the early grades, it is very gentle, growing gradually more rigorous as the children mature. For us, I think this approach works well. My daughter (in K) probably "learns less" than many of her counterparts, but I think she'll catch up fine later. In regards to the idea that curriculum was more rigorous a century ago, Jessie Wise herself refers to this in the prologue to WTM, saying that her grandparents were learning Latin and algebra, advanced mathematics and solid writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I wouldn't say I delay at all, but I feel that I am compared to a lot of people IRL and some on this board, because I don't believe in formal academics at age 4 and 5. I don't worry that my 3 year olds haven't known all their letters at 2 or 3, let alone teaching sounds. I haven't required a workbook yet (though we have used a couple, but when there is balking I back off and find another way to teach the same thing). There is a lot of research in early childhood development that show there is no benefit to preschool academics and it may be harmful. In the homeschool community, I feel like an oddball for not doing a math program in kindergarten. I read a couple of the Moore's books (which is where the phrase Better Late than Early comes from, right?) and I get a different interpretation of what delayed academics mean, than some people on message boards seem to have. My perception is that many people interpret this to mean, don't teach your kid to read before they are 7 or 8 or ask for it, don't do any math, just unschool and live life. But when I read those books I got the idea it was more like that Trivium article-- you do teach phonics, math, and read, read read all kinds of things, but you just don't require workbooks and textbooks. And then formal workbook and textbook type of work in math, science, history begins somewhere between ages 8-10. I might be misunderstanding, but I never took it as support for not pushing reading until 9 or 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacy in NJ Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 No, not for my family. I do know several families that have delayed academics or unschooled the early years with positive results. I think it depends a great deal on the family. It the family environment is rich, lots of discussion, lots of hands on problem solving, lots of parental discussion and involvement, I think it can work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria/ME Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 I read a couple of the Moore's books (which is where the phrase Better Late than Early comes from, right?) and I get a different interpretation of what delayed academics mean, than some people on message boards seem to have. My perception is that many people interpret this to mean, don't teach your kid to read before they are 7 or 8 or ask for it, don't do any math, just unschool and live life. But when I read those books I got the idea it was more like that Trivium article-- you do teach phonics, math, and read, read read all kinds of things, but you just don't require workbooks and textbooks. And then formal workbook and textbook type of work in math, science, history begins somewhere between ages 8-10. I might be misunderstanding, but I never took it as support for not pushing reading until 9 or 10. Yes, well, you put it better than I could have I think! I guess when I think delayed I think 'don't push' 'no workbooks' 'no formal sit down study' of the subject. Delayed academics [seperate subject: unschooling] are usually mentioned in terms of math and grammar. So in math,say, you certainly talk about numbers and fractions and whatever else comes up in daily life....but you don't sit down and "study" it. On the subject of math here is an excerpt from Bluedorns: "We are not saying that no child should ever utter the name of a number before age ten. Not at all. About age four, most children discover money, and there is no hiding numbers from them after that. They encounter numbers all of the time. If we encourage learning, then they’ll be asking lots of questions, and we’ll be full of opportunities to teach numbers and measurement. But we would not encourage using a formal workbook before age ten, unless the child has a genuine desire to do so, he shows that he is competent to handle the work, and it does not take away time from other valuable activities. We are not going to ruin the child if we wait until age ten before beginning formal teaching of arithmetic." Oh good grief, I"m so sorry!!! The font went crazy on me and I can't seem to correct it!!! Many posters are saying they don't believe in delayed academics and then describing the above idea, which seems to me to BE delayed academics. Which tells me what I wanted to know when I set out and posted the topic, that is to say, many people are 'delaying' various subjects for various reasons when necessary and doing so without pressure or guilt! Hooray for homeschooling! What I would really like to know also is WHAT subjects particularly are you 'delaying' and what works for your family during and at the conclusion of this delay. For example, my daughter delayed in reading. After this delay we found OPGR didn't work for us. She found it "too babyish" and we went with something else. When 'delaying' a particular topic, often the 'entry level' textbook/workbook for the delayed subject is not age appropriate for the child. What works for you and why? Math is another example, we are starting to directly "hit" math a bit harder now....I'm struggling finding something that really "clicks" with my daughter in terms of age and level appropriate. I'd really like to have input on this aspect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profmom Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 No, but we slow down if we need to -- such as when they need extra practice on a new math concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaid Dad Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 No, we don't delay academics here at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSmom25andRN Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 For some that means "delayed" academics and for others it means "accelerated" academics. They are not meat to be graded so I don't really worry about it. Angela Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiegirl Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Maria, according to the latest explanation of delayed academics that you gave in your most recent post then I guess I fall into that category. I didn't start out this way but I burnt my oldest child out by expecting way too much from her when she was 5. She was/is a smart cookie and I mistakenly thought that I had to challenge her with curriculum. This is my biggest regret. I have learned from that mistake. I am not using curriculum with my youngest and using the bare minimum with my ds, who is 8. This does not mean that my children are not learning. We have reading, math and writing every day but it is done in a relaxed manner. Math is done by reading storybooks, playing games and other hands on activities like baking, measuring, etc. I don't use a formal grammar program with my two youngest but we use living books to teach parts of speech. We are reading The Phantom Tollbooth right now. This book gives lots of opportunities to talk about grammar. We had a great discussion about homophones this afternoon after reading this book. We handle reading this way as well. I do use a program with my ds as he is mildly dyslexic but we supplement this with games. I think, though, that I am giving my children a rich learning environment. We read Shakespeare, mythology, history books, science books, etc. and we have some great discussions about these things. I don't plan on doing this as my children head on towards high school. I plan on starting to transition them to a more structured program in Gr. 5 or so. I have heard of many people who have taken this path and their children have transitioned just fine to the rigorous expectations of high school. This is what I place my hope in. I don't know if I am answering your question properly, if not, ask again and I will give more specifics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 What do you do? What have you found that works for you? Why? or Why not? I tried to hold off with all three kids. The oldest demanded math books at age four. The middle kid wanted to learn to read at four. The third and youngest is now begging for schoolwork and showing every sign of needing direction on a daily basis for several hours. Therefore, I officially gave up on delayed academics as of 11:00 Monday morning, when my last child, my youngest, my three-year-old, spilled corn meal all over the kitchen floor, wrote symbols in it, and said, "This is how you spell the word, 'cornbread,' Mama." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedbel Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) I taught my first son to read when he was five and felt that was enough for that year. When he was six and reading very well (chapter books) I added handwriting. When he was seven we started Math. We will begin Mathusee Delta Level (Single and multiple-digit division ) in a few weeks and he just turned nine so he caught up quickly. This method worked very well for us! My other ds is 5 and we are going through OPGTR. I wanted to begin math in two yrs like I did with first ds but he begged to start last year and he is flying through it. He seems to be naturally gifted in this area so we will continue. All children are different but going slowly turned out great in my first ds's case. Edited February 5, 2009 by jedbel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I delay in the opposite subjects, LOL. We are very rigorous very young in math, reading, and writing. We are relaxed in the "content" areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanessaS Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 In a word: no. We're very AP so I feel that learning in the young ages should be child-led. And my 3 yo really wants to learn phonics and play Sudoku. Really. I actually shamelessly use learning as a treat. For example, today I told him if he cleaned up his playroom we would work on number patterns together. He cleaned like a madman! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) Maria/ME, Thanks for your #30 post. I really appreciate what you wrote. I think instead of calling it "delayed academics" from now on I will refer to it as "child appropriate" academics! I imagine some folks reading all this might want to say "duh", of course you slow down or speed up according to the child, but I think it is beneficial to read what is working for other HSers. And what subjects they have had success in even when the rest of academia might think they are making a mistake. Thanks. Also, if/when we decide to go slowly on a subject we have to be prepared perhaps for some raised eyebrows when the child doesn't know something in public. Personally, I don't care what others think. But I have explained to my girls that they don't know as many "math facts" as the kids at the other schools. "Daddy and I are teaching you the way we believe is best for this school year". A few weeks ago one of my dd told me that a fourth grade girl in her SS class snickered when she was filling out a paper and pondered aloud "how do you spell "was"". She knows how to spell "was"; she must have been in a hurry. (I mean if your parents aren't around and you can't ask your SS teacher how to spell a word. . . :confused:) Anyway, it was a good opportunity to teach my girls how to act appropriately when someone doesn't know something, or when they speak in an uneducated or rude way. Graciousness is a virtue that I wish I had learned earlier in life! Anyway, thanks again for the thread! Happy HSing! Donna twin third grade girls Edited February 5, 2009 by dmmosher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria/ME Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 Thanks for the latest responses...this was exactly what I wanted to know...what you do, what works (or doesn't) for you. Prairiegirl, I appreciate your experience very much...the non formal approach. In your signature line you mention Mother Tongue. What is that? I've been discovering all sorts of new curriculum lately I never knew was out there....the curriculum addict in me want's more! We are starting more of a transition now. My dd is 11 (her peers are in 5/6 grade) and we are approaching a more "formal" style of schoolwork. She is having no problem whatsoever,and seems to enjoy the times of formal work. At this point in her life she is wanting more of a schedule. I see this in all aspects of her life, not just "school" time. Dragons in the Flower Bed makes a good point. Kids want to learn. And of course, that is exactly what we want them to do if we believe in "delayed academics" or not. And yes, dmmosher, it could be called "child led academics"! I think the subjects that we choose to delay, for one reason or another, could be considered "unschooled". Although I know that is the last thing the Bluedorns have in mind when discussing delayed math! But I digress... I seem to have a harder time when my daughter is considered "behind" than she does! I have a BIL who is a English teacher and he tends to quiz her a bit. I know he is trying to be interested in her and what she does,but it comes across as a "test". But that seems to be how he relates to kids after being in the school system for 30 odd years! How do you say "We haven't done formal math, yet, but ask her all about the History of Math!!" Thanks again for the responses...it's interesting to see what others are doing and what is working for them in a the aspect of "delaying" certain subjects...for whatever reason..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I understood it that in the 1900's, not every child was educated, but the education that was available was much more rigorous. What about something like this test? FWIW, I do not believe that grammar is necessary to teach until around 4th or 5th grade, and I prefer to match skills like learning to read, math and handwriting to the developmental stage my children are at. Jesi http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.asp article on this test Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria/ME Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 OH, Carmen, excellent research! I found the whole article on snopes very interesting. The fact is, many people DO homeschool because the public school system IN GENERAL doesn't really pass muster. The original statement from the article linked that some took umbrage with was " Today, in contrast, the most arduous efforts of our public schools cannot produce high school graduates who can compare favorably in knowledge and skills with the 8th grade graduates of 1900." and that is probably true in SOME schools, in SOME areas. Perhaps the article should not have generalized their statements as a argument for delayed academics. But I think the point the article was making from that statement had to do with the fact that "one size fits all" is NOT a good basis for public education....and ta da! We can all agree on that, which is why we homeschool! If anyone wants to throw out the whole idea of delayed academics based on the falsehood of the above statement, be my guest! I really just wanted a dialogue on "delayed academics" as we understand it, not do we agree with it or not.... ...thanks again for finding the article/link. I, personally, have always thought that the educational system as we know it today has been dumbed down quite a bit in comparison to other centuries...but that article was food for thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Today, in contrast, the most arduous efforts of our public schools cannot produce high school graduates who can compare favorably in knowledge and skills with the 8th grade graduates of 1900. In addition, this statement was probably true of the most elite schools of that time. I actually did not see where the whole education of the late 19th century debate really had anything to do with delayed academics. It must have gone right over my head! the educational system as we know it today has been dumbed down quite a bit in comparison to other centuries That is what I do not understand... when someone graduated a product of a classical education, weren't they considered done? Yet we are expected to put our kids through a classical education and then send them to college. Am I wrong here? I am just assuming. I have no information on this, but would certainly love to have some. BTW, I think delayed academics can work, but I think that some of us wouldn't know how to make it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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