If you thought your child might benefit from something . . .

[Jenny in Florida]

. . . that was in many ways opposed to your worldview, what would you do?

 

Let me see if I can make this more clear.

 

I am a pretty liberal, anti-war, pacifist-leaning type. I'm not perfect, but I try to practice non-violence in my own flawed way. My husband is respectful of my beliefs, but doesn't have any particularly strong leanings one way or another in such things.

 

Our 10-year-old son has expressed a strong interest in joining Civil Air Patrol. (And, yes, I know he has to be 12 before he can join, but we have an acquaintance at our church who recently took a position with one of the local groups, so this is coming to a head right now.) He (our son) is very interested in model rocketry and engineering and sees CAP as a group in which he could learn about and experiment with those things. He is also, I'm sure, drawn to the idea of a structured "club."

 

I've perused the CAP websites, and I have to say that it makes me extremely uncomfortable to imagine a child of mine participating. And I want very badly to say no, and I know my son would understand and respect my position. However, the truth is that this kid is a bit of a handful. We've had several upsetting incidents with him lately that have me keeping him on a very short leash until we can figure out what's going on and feel more confident that he's got his act together. My husband is a good guy and a loving but not terribly involved father. (And this is not likely to change.) So, there is a little voice in my head whispering that a group like CAP might be really great for my son.

 

But then, oh, but then . . .

 

For the record, he already has other activities in his life. He dances semi-seriously (four or five classes a week plus a couple of productions each year) and sings with an RSCM-affiliated boychoir (which we often describe as "boy scouts with music"). He also belongs to a model rocketry club with his dad and participates in the Religious Education program at our church. Next year, he'll be eligible to join the youth group there, too. He very much enjoys all of these things. So, it's not like he's pining away for social or extracurricular activities. He's just really excited about CAP because he knows the guy who will be running the aerospace education part of things, and that's one of his special interests.

 

Honestly, the other day I had to ask him to stop talking about it and give me a chance to process the idea because I kept crying when I thought about letting him join. But it's possible he'd really love it and benefit from it. I mean, maybe he's just not cut out to be a peacenik like me.

 

Now, before anyone suggests I talk it over with my husband, I'll clarify that we have discussed it. My husband is less ambivalent than I am, but fully aware that this would be a difficult thing for me. And, given that I'm the primary care-taker and chauffeur, it would likely be me who was taking our son to meetings and handling his involvement. So, he's happy to go with my decision.

 

I should also say that letting our son "try it out" is not a good idea. This is a very bright, very focused, very intense kid. If he goes to one or two meetings and loves it, there is no way he's going to take it well if I then pull him out. He'd understand if I said "no" up front, but I cannot risk letting him fall in love with it and then pulling the rug out from under him. That, he'd have a lot of trouble forgiving.

 

So, what say you? Has anyone faced a similar dilemma? What did you do, and how did it turn out?

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

. . . that was in many ways opposed to your worldview, what would you do?

 

So, what say you? Has anyone faced a similar dilemma? What did you do, and how did it turn out?

 

Because it's YOU, Jenny, knowing how you rear your children, I would say that you pretty much have to trust the child.

 

Unless... unless it's a hill you're willing to die on. (Ok, that's a Very Bad Metaphor. But humor me.) Unless you feel it would affect your relationship, for example, for the worse, or would in your estimation ruin his life if he continued the pursuit of this militaristic community for the sake of militarism.

 

I've let go of some of my dearly cherished views *for my children* before. I kept the views, but have come to respect that they do not hold the views. I'm not telling you you should do this, definitely. But if you do not allow it, you're going to have to do more than just say no.

 

But you know that already.

 

I've let my child follow his heart before, at a young age. It tore my heart right out of my body to let him do it. But in that particular case, I knew that it was ultimately his life and his direction and I had to let him have a major role in determining that direction. I'm still torn up about it, lo these many years hence. But it was the right thing for him.

[Laura K (NC)]

In our house, I think my kids have benefitted to see where I have to stand up and make sacrifices for my beliefs, and that sometimes strong beliefs mean tough decisions. I have made the mistake of going along with the crowd when I thought there would be some benefit for my sons to do an activity, and I have always regretted those decisions. No matter where a kid is educated, he will be indoctrinated into some worldview. A parent naturally thinks his own worldview is best, because he's thought about it carefully for a long time.

 

If for nothing else, the stress that it will cause in you to have to take him and deal with the issues that go against your core... this would be too high a cost for me. That kind of heartache will come soon enough when they get older. My older boys sometimes are involved in things that I don't approve of 100%, and them growing up is a constant letting-go on my part, but they have to have a firm grounding in the things that are important, and then they realize the pros and cons of a decision and can weigh the cost themselves.

[Colleen]

I've thought about this very subect ~ Civil Air Patrol ~ because we know people who are/have been involved and speak enthusiastically about it, and a couple of my boys would be interested. I have no doubt it offers worthwhile opportunities. Having said that, it's definitely not my cuppa. When I looked into it, I got that same gut reaction I had when we made a small foray into Boy Scouts. I won't elaborate, but perhaps you get my drift. In the case of CAP, it would be very, very difficult to me to be a supportive parent and could, in fact, cause stress and conflict between my son(s) and me. (My husband, like yours, respects my beliefs but isn't by nature a "take a stand" kinda guy.) So I've steered away from CAP.

 

One thing that's different between my guys and yours, though, is that mine could benefit from a bit more extracurricular activity. I don't think that's the case for your son at all. He's involved in tons of stuff already and can likely delve into aerospace education through other avenues.

 

 

 

 

 

. . . that was in many ways opposed to your worldview, what would you do?

 

Let me see if I can make this more clear.

 

I am a pretty liberal, anti-war, pacifist-leaning type. I'm not perfect, but I try to practice non-violence in my own flawed way. My husband is respectful of my beliefs, but doesn't have any particularly strong leanings one way or another in such things.

 

Our 10-year-old son has expressed a strong interest in joining Civil Air Patrol. (And, yes, I know he has to be 12 before he can join, but we have an acquaintance at our church who recently took a position with one of the local groups, so this is coming to a head right now.) He (our son) is very interested in model rocketry and engineering and sees CAP as a group in which he could learn about and experiment with those things. He is also, I'm sure, drawn to the idea of a structured "club."

 

I've perused the CAP websites, and I have to say that it makes me extremely uncomfortable to imagine a child of mine participating. And I want very badly to say no, and I know my son would understand and respect my position. However, the truth is that this kid is a bit of a handful. We've had several upsetting incidents with him lately that have me keeping him on a very short leash until we can figure out what's going on and feel more confident that he's got his act together. My husband is a good guy and a loving but not terribly involved father. (And this is not likely to change.) So, there is a little voice in my head whispering that a group like CAP might be really great for my son.

 

But then, oh, but then . . .

 

For the record, he already has other activities in his life. He dances semi-seriously (four or five classes a week plus a couple of productions each year) and sings with an RSCM-affiliated boychoir (which we often describe as "boy scouts with music"). He also belongs to a model rocketry club with his dad and participates in the Religious Education program at our church. Next year, he'll be eligible to join the youth group there, too. He very much enjoys all of these things. So, it's not like he's pining away for social or extracurricular activities. He's just really excited about CAP because he knows the guy who will be running the aerospace education part of things, and that's one of his special interests.

 

Honestly, the other day I had to ask him to stop talking about it and give me a chance to process the idea because I kept crying when I thought about letting him join. But it's possible he'd really love it and benefit from it. I mean, maybe he's just not cut out to be a peacenik like me.

 

Now, before anyone suggests I talk it over with my husband, I'll clarify that we have discussed it. My husband is less ambivalent than I am, but fully aware that this would be a difficult thing for me. And, given that I'm the primary care-taker and chauffeur, it would likely be me who was taking our son to meetings and handling his involvement. So, he's happy to go with my decision.

 

I should also say that letting our son "try it out" is not a good idea. This is a very bright, very focused, very intense kid. If he goes to one or two meetings and loves it, there is no way he's going to take it well if I then pull him out. He'd understand if I said "no" up front, but I cannot risk letting him fall in love with it and then pulling the rug out from under him. That, he'd have a lot of trouble forgiving.

 

So, what say you? Has anyone faced a similar dilemma? What did you do, and how did it turn out?

[elizabeth]

I fully understand where you are coming from. I think it seems you know what you think you should do and what your conscience is urging you to do. I think you should trust your gut. You have already thought about this a great deal and know where you stand. I share your beliefs and they are not popular in this age nor have they ever been. If the thought of him participating made you weep, your heart , mind and soul are speaking to you . Just listen. I have always paid attention to my gut and now think that I was calling something "instinct "when it was far from a knee jerk reaction. It was a cumulative process wherein my past experiences, cognitive abilities and conscience all interacted at the same time and my understanding was that it was my gut. Now I think differently that what we often call our gut reaction is a hodge podge of reason, experience, emotion and spirit responding in a split second to a situation. If that seems vague please forgive me as I am tired this evening. Funny you should postabout this subject I just finished reading A Persistent Peace by Father John Dear. What an amazing journey his life has been. http://www.fatherjohndear.org/

[SonshineLearner]

I'd let him...and know that sometimes when you fight an urge, it gets deeper...and deeper. You may let him and after a while his interest may wane.

I know that the spots where my step kids have been told what they need to do by their mom, who says she listens to their desires and goals...anyway, where she's fought them...they've actually bent more in the direction that they wanted to go. They are very smart, sweet girls...but her trying to force them in her beliefs has not worked. (They are with us half time.)

This sounds like an incredible opportunity, and as long as you can trust the leader....I'd go for it. (You might even talk to the leader about the direction you'd like your son to go...)

Carrie:-)

[Kathleen in VA]

Both my older boys participated in the cadet program with Civil Air Patrol. I never really saw it as an avenue into the military. I mean, I know it is the official auxilliary of the U. S. Air Force, but the things my boys did, for the most part, had very little to do with the military.

 

Both of my sons were much more involved in the Search and Rescue/Emergency Services arm of the program. They took tons of Red Cross courses and are certified to help set up shelters in case of a natural disaster, search for lost toddlers/alzheimer's patients, administer First Aid, etc. They joined in October 2001 in response to 9/11 so that if they found themselves near a similar disaster they would be able to actually help and not just stand there feeling helpless. We have a nuclear reactor about 40 or so miles away and they are also certified to set up a shelter in case of a problem there as well. My oldest is now a certified Red Cross instructor.

 

I would not worry about your son developing a military-like mentality through CAP. It is much more of a leadership course - helping the cadets gain confidence in areas such as public speaking, decision-making in emergency situations, public service and the like. A lot of the young men my sons went through the program with went on to be aeronautical engineers or other types of engineers. Both my boys are working toward degrees in computer science. I think the main thing they learned from CAP is community service.

 

They do wear military type uniforms, but I think that is really just to foster discipline. They are required to keep the uniforms neat and wear them according to regulation. They do learn marching drill and salute and all that, but, again, it promotes esprit de corps and demands that the cadet be respectful and self-controlled. The activities require the cadets to push themselves past comfortable and develop mental and physical strength.

 

HTH

[Peek a Boo]

we considered this as well in NY.

 

My oldest ds did a year in CAP, but like you, after researching it more I decided we wouldn't be rejoining.

 

He was a bit disappointed, but we've moved on to Scouts and 4-H and other activities.

 

I have made it clear that this is a hill I'm willing to die on. What they do after they become an adult is their responsibility. How I guide them under my care is MINE.

 

I will make sure they know how to handle a gun safely and responsibly, but i won't steer them to a career where the job description involves training to kill another person.

[Pretty in Pink]

If you thought your child might benefit from something . . .

. . . that was in many ways opposed to your worldview, what would you do?

 

 

Nope, at least not my ten year old. I might re-evaluate when they were sixteen but not before. I might not. There are some beliefs and values that I hold so highly I would not budge, even then. It sounds like your son has a full life with rich opportunities presently. He already has an outlet for this particular interest. It is perfectly okay for you to just say no.

[Peek a Boo]

Both of my sons were much more involved in the Search and Rescue/Emergency Services arm of the program. They took tons of Red Cross courses and are certified to help set up shelters in case of a natural disaster, search for lost toddlers/alzheimer's patients, administer First Aid, etc. They joined in October 2001 in response to 9/11 so that if they found themselves near a similar disaster they would be able to actually help and not just stand there feeling helpless. We have a nuclear reactor about 40 or so miles away and they are also certified to set up a shelter in case of a problem there as well. My oldest is now a certified Red Cross instructor.

 

 

This is more our speed also, just not thru CAP. ;)

[Plucky]

How did your ds find out about CAP? I'm pro-gun and a veteran but I have intentionally decided to not encourage my kids to join the military. My dh is not in agreement with my approach but he won out with guitar hero and he doesn't want to fight me over something like this. My boys are boy scouts and they have been subjected to a lot of hardcore military recruitment. I roll my eyes and tell my kids like it is. I love boy scouts but like anything we have to talk, talk, talk, and listen to kids.

 

When someone starts raving about CAP I nod and smile and get the heck out of there. I am truly not interested in grooming my kids for the military. However, if my child was very excited about it and it would add to his life and he begged and begged and begged I would probably let him join CAP but he'd have to let another activity go.

 

I'm not a peacenik and I don't want my kids in the military. I'm trying to make it unappealing and steer them another way. My kids don't even know what CAP is because of that.

 

Now if one of my kids grows up and joins the military I'll be the first one with a bumper sticker on my car touting my pride but until then my kids don't know that. So far so good.

[Unicorn.]

I think you should go to some meetings. Alone. If you sit through a few meetings, and it just makes you sick at your stomach, then find another avenue for him to pursue his interests. Otherwise, let him join. HTH

[swellmomma]

is CAP like cadets? If so I think the program has a lot to offer. My son is in navy league cadets, which is sea cadets for 9-12 yr olds. I do not see it as a doorway into violence etc, it is just a group that serves our needs for my son. Since joining I have seen a clear difference in my son as he follows the leaders and starts maturing into a young man. Now my situation is different in that other than grandpa and a couple uncles ds does not have a male role model in his life, so cadets is giving him an opportunity to be a strong male kwim. That said my son has plans to join the army when he turns 18, and army cadets don't start until age 13 so he is in navy league for now and loving every minute.

 

However, if you are against everything that has to do with the military then CAP would not be the program for you or your son.

[Pretty in Pink]

I think that, if you hold strong anti-military sentiments, this program is not for you. Bottom line. I know there are things I feel so very strongly about that I could not stomach the thought of allowing my child to be involved with anything even remotely related. And I say this as a proud military wife and daughter. :grouphug:

[Mommyof4ks]

We have ROTC and other military type programs here, and they have really helped alot of kids here 'find their way' and that does not always end with military service.

 

If you trust the leader, and your son is very interested in this, then I would let him try it. He may just wind up with skills that land him his dream job someday, because as most of us know experience is very important in today's market now that more people are going to college and tech. schools.

 

Ask yourself what he would gain from this outside of the military skills (which really comes down to discipline, respect, and thinking of others). I would talk with the leader also to determine exactly what your son would be learning. We find that the national websites often do not reflect the local chapters of organizations (someone mentioned boy scouts, and we have seen both good and bad packs).

 

Good luck with your decision. It sounds like you already know that by keeping him from following his path it could make the current situation worse, so hopefully if this does not work out then something else similar will be found. It is hard when kids don't agree with us, but how wonderful that he is comfortable talking with you about it knowing that you don't agree with him.

[Mari]

I just checked out the CAP website to learn more about it. I've cut and pasted what sparked my interest:

 

"Through their experiences as CAP cadets, young people develop into responsible citizens and become tomorrow's aerospace leaders. The leadership skills, self-confidence, and discipline cadets gain through CAP prepares them to achieve whatever goals they set for themselves in life.

CAP is the volunteer, non-profit auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force. Its three missions are to develop its cadets, educate Americans on the importance of aviation and space, and perform live-saving humanitarian missions."

 

So I'm not sure what exactly you disagree with on principle. There are so many ways your son could benefit from this kind of enrichment, particularly since he already has a keen interest in model rocketry. He would be with like-minded individuals pursuing the same interests. Perhaps he is set for a future in aerospace. That doesn't necessarily mean he has to go through the military to pursue a career. I know three men who participated in CAP for some time in their lives and all of them became engineers. One works for NASA. Two of them went on to receive their private pilot's license but NONE of them went in the military.

 

I say encourage his interests but be there to teach him career options outside of the military.

 

--Mari

[Peek a Boo]

Its three missions are to develop its cadets, educate Americans on the importance of aviation and space, and perform live-saving humanitarian missions."

 

So I'm not sure what exactly you disagree with on principle. There are so many ways your son could benefit from this kind of enrichment, particularly since he already has a keen interest in model rocketry. He would be with like-minded individuals pursuing the same interests. Perhaps he is set for a future in aerospace. That doesn't necessarily mean he has to go through the military to pursue a career.

 

it looks like the disagreement is w/ the first part of the mission: to develop the kids as cadets. I wouldn't want my dc groomed for the military, and would bust my hiney to find other venues for model rocketry and humatiarian missions. And there's plenty of those outside CAP ;)

[Ellie]

Here's the thing: even if you thought it was a good idea, how on earth would you pack in one more activity? You have good grounds to say no based on that alone.

 

If this were something else that didn't go against your strongly held beliefs, would you be this twisted about it? An activity that would take as much time as CAP will?

 

My vote would be no.

[Catherine]

I don't know that if my kid absolutely loved something, for a long time, I would stand in the way. I can't tell how long it's been on his radar. I do know that I would make every effort to figure out exactly what he likes about the idea and then look for another way to get that. That said, you know your own child. If he is the kind of kid who is likely to have a real hard time not going back to something he liked, then I'd be very careful before starting out, and probably look harder than ever for something that was an acceptable substitute.

[Pamela H in Texas]

In our house, I think my kids have benefitted to see where I have to stand up and make sacrifices for my beliefs, and that sometimes strong beliefs mean tough decisions. I have made the mistake of going along with the crowd when I thought there would be some benefit for my sons to do an activity, and I have always regretted those decisions.

 

I completely agree. I so wish I had not made certain decisions (though they weren't "going with the crowd," just against my personal beliefs). It isn't that there weren't certain benefits I thought there might be, btw. I wasnt' wrong about that (I know my kids pretty well and guess well there); but that there are other ramifications and sometimes the consequences last LONG after the choice has been ended.

 

Maybe you (OP) and ds can brainstorm other ideas that don't run counter to your beliefs.

 

BTW, I would have different advice for you if your ds was 18 and making his own decisions, like Margaret is talking about. Obviously, we don't always have to agree with our adult children's choices but can be supportive of them as people (and in many cases, even support their choice).

 

I think your ds will benefit SO much more if you stand up for your belief. You'll find more appropriate ways of dealing with the rest.

[Pamela H in Texas]

would bust my hiney to find other venues for model rocketry and humatiarian missions. And there's plenty of those outside CAP

 

Peek, this is the second time you mentioned opportunities outside of CAP. Do you know of any personally? Something not military related may be just the kind of thing the OP is looking for.

 

I know when I was a teen, one of my friends worked for the firehouse in town. He worked there like a part time job but also did training, weekends, listened in on the scanner, etc. His truck was outfitted as if he were a firefighter. I thought it was interesting. I don't know how he got involved in that or at what age that is a choice, but....

[jejily]

Because your son cannot participate in this organization for another 2 years, why not just tell him the conversation about joining CAP is tabled until that time? You can be honest and tell him you are not warm to the idea, but that discussion about it a moot point at this stage, since he's too young to join, anyway.

 

In the meantime, do as others have suggested, and find other groups or clubs or classes that fulfill your son's aerospace engineering desires, which seem to be the driving motivator for your son. (I doubt the humanitarian missions aspect of CAP is what is fueling his interest at his age; but if it is, then, again, find ways for him to engage in this noble endeavor outside of CAP.) Even if you aren't able to find comparable activities, his interest in it might wane by the time he's 12, and he might very well be eager to pursue some other new adventure, one that doesn't leave you feeling ... cold.

 

 

BTW, my dad, who was a private pilot and owned his own plane, was in the CAP for two decades, until cancer and then a heart attack kept him from being able to renew his pilot's license. Not one of the young men who participated in CAP during my dad's time with the organization went on the join the military, but all of them stayed in CAP as young adults, as they were drawn to the search-and-rescue aspect of the group. Of course, as someone else has pointed out, every chapter is different.

[MelanieMac]

Jenny, I'm not sure where you are in FL, but we have quite a few great rocket and science programs (with NASA being here) that might satisfy his craving for this without making you so uncomfortable. If you are near the space coast, google NASA and see if there are some programs you could sign him up for. Maybe you could cushion the "no" with a "but instead, how about a week at space camp this summer to learn about aerospace engineering"??? If he still LOVES it in two or three years, then you can re-visit the issue. Just an idea

[LaxMom]

If the thought of him participating made you weep, your heart , mind and soul are speaking to you . Just listen.

 

:iagree: I could have written the first part of your post... could very possibly find myself writing it in its entirety in a few years, when my boys are older.

 

I am not of the "gee, what harm can it do, their focus is on 'humanitarian' missions and engineering" camp. I don't care if CAP doesn't actively groom kids for military service. I am actively grooming my kids to NOT serve the world in that way. I would not support that in any way, even in a periphery group.

[Jenny in Florida]

So I'm not sure what exactly you disagree with on principle.

 

Well, the only person I know who participated in a similar program did go into the military. And even our acquaintance through church who spoke about the program recently was very up-front in describing it as a recruitment tool.

 

For example, these quotes are from the webpage aimed at students:

 

"You can even get a taste of military life, and learn about military history, customs, drills and inspection."

 

"Each year, at least 10 percent of the freshman class at the U.S. Air Force Academy is made up of former CAP cadets."

 

 

Also, I was very upset to see on the website of the local group (the on in which my son would like to be involved) photos of kids posing in front of the airplane in which they took a "Military Familirization Flight," as well as photos and comments about cadets learning to shoot various kinds of weapons.

 

If this were a different kid, one I knew carried his own strong convictions (one way or the other) who wanted to join this organization JUST for the rocketry/aeronautics aspect of the thing, that might be different. But this is a kid who is still pretty unfinished in many ways and still far too vulnerable to the group mentality. So, we have to be very careful about which groups he's in.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Because your son cannot participate in this organization for another 2 years, why not just tell him the conversation about joining CAP is tabled until that time? You can be honest and tell him you are not warm to the idea, but that discussion about it a moot point at this stage, since he's too young to join, anyway.

 

:iagree: I do this often with my son (who will be 9 next month) on issues he thinks about for the future (the kid thinks about the future more than I do). I'll say, "that sounds interesting. Let's both think about it and we'll discuss it again (insert time frame or specific date here)." I put the responsibility to bring it up again on him, and sometimes he forgets all about it. Sometimes he'll bring up the subject before we've agreed to discuss it again, and I'll just let him know that I'm still thinking about it and haven't forgotten that we'll discuss it again.

[Jenny in Florida]

Because your son cannot participate in this organization for another 2 years, why not just tell him the conversation about joining CAP is tabled until that time? You can be honest and tell him you are not warm to the idea, but that discussion about it a moot point at this stage, since he's too young to join, anyway.

 

Well, he's turning 11 in two months, so, as my son was the first one to point out, it's really only 14 months.

 

And, just to complicate the matter, he has apparently been told that it would be okay for him to visit a couple of meetings before he is officially 12, just to see how he likes it.

 

And this is a child who is perfectly capable of remembering and holding tightly to an idea for well over 14 months, brooding over it the entire time. He will not handle it well if I say nothing now, "let" him think it's a possibility, and then say no later. As I said, he's intense.

[Mari]

Well, the only person I know who participated in a similar program did go into the military. And even our acquaintance through church who spoke about the program recently was very up-front in describing it as a recruitment tool.

 

For example, these quotes are from the webpage aimed at students:

 

"You can even get a taste of military life, and learn about military history, customs, drills and inspection."

 

"Each year, at least 10 percent of the freshman class at the U.S. Air Force Academy is made up of former CAP cadets."

 

 

Also, I was very upset to see on the website of the local group (the on in which my son would like to be involved) photos of kids posing in front of the airplane in which they took a "Military Familirization Flight," as well as photos and comments about cadets learning to shoot various kinds of weapons.

 

If this were a different kid, one I knew carried his own strong convictions (one way or the other) who wanted to join this organization JUST for the rocketry/aeronautics aspect of the thing, that might be different. But this is a kid who is still pretty unfinished in many ways and still far too vulnerable to the group mentality. So, we have to be very careful about which groups he's in.

 

So I don't know why you're even asking others for their opinion on the matter. You are strong in your convictions and your instincts seem to tell you what you should do. Go with it! You'll be happier with yourself in the long run.

 

FWIW, I come from a very PRO-military family. I am a proud miltary (Air Force) wife whose husband has deployed numerous times in defense of our country and to promote freedom abroad. I completely respect the lifestyle and know that it's needed for our country and indeed the world. I'm thankful for every young man and woman who grows up with the desire to serve their country. We need them, like it or not. And yet, when my ds9 tells me he wants to join the Army when he grows up and he wants to defend his country in war, it shakes the very core of my being.

 

I hope you find peace with standing firm to your convictions. It's hard saying no sometimes to our kids but remember, you're the mama and you know best, especially when he's only 10. :)

 

--Mari

[Parrothead]

Is this something he is being called to do?

 

Is there a comparable program engineering program for his age that he could start sooner?

 

Would you be interested in starting an engineering only club for his age that he could start in sooner?

 

Have you talked to him about why you feel uncomfortable?

 

Does he show any interest in the military aspect or does he just want to do the engineering part.

 

Can you compromise? He can join the club but not participate in the military training aspect.

 

If he is being called to be an aerospace engineer, eventually as some point in his career he will more than likely have to deal with members of the military. Maybe the exposure is a good thing.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Jenny, here's something your son may be interested in

http://www.invent.org/camp/default.aspx

My sons have gone to Camp Invention held at the local university, and loved it. Of course, it is not an ongoing club, like CAP, but may give him an outlet and he could meet some other kids who share his interests.

[Peek a Boo]

I don't care if CAP doesn't actively groom kids for military service. I am actively grooming my kids to NOT serve the world in that way. I would not support that in any way, even in a periphery group.

 

I love the way you worded this.

 

Because your son cannot participate in this organization for another 2 years,...

 

The CAP in Syracuse allowed kids as young as 9 to participate [which is how my oldest got in while we were up there] --it was mostly homeschoolers, and they noticed that the younger siblings were always sitting on the sidelines listening anyway ;)

 

Peek, this is the second time you mentioned opportunities outside of CAP. Do you know of any personally? Something not military related may be just the kind of thing the OP is looking for.

 

well, i mentioned Scouts and 4-H off the top of my head.

 

In 4-H, it is easy enough to develop your own club where all the projects revolve around the specific areas of focus your kids want, including rocketry, engineering, and humanitarian causes. Many professionals are eager to jump at the chance to offer mentorship to a 4-H club. 4-H offers lots of opportunities to share, present, and compete w/ your projects.

 

Scouts doesn't have a specific focus *on purpose*, but they do offer lots of community-service and leadership opportunities, and help create a well-rounded individual. So he would get lots of opportunities to get exposure to other areas of life, as well as the chance to work on merit badges like Engineering, Emergency Preparedness, and Space Exploration, which include rocketry and has a host of activities here:

http://www.meritbadge.com/mb/107.htm

but like someone else mentioned, CAP, Scouts, 4-H and other organizations are subject to local leadership, so be ready to be heavily invloved or step into leadership yourself to make the local arm fit your philosophies.

 

I like Melaniemac's idea of cushioning the no w/ another opportunity. we're looking at Space camp this summer too-- dh has always been fascinated w/ the space program. i think he'll like it more than the boys, lol!

 

She already mentioned that he's in a rocketry club, so I would focus on expanding that opportunity --maybe see if y'all can't arrange some competitions w/ neighboring clubs or go to [or host!] a convention somewhere. I'd be willing to have a family vacation revolve around a convention/activity my kids would like to help take their mind off something.....

 

I'm sure there are other group opportunities for expanding his focus area outside CAP. I would start by speaking w/ someone at NASA and see if they can offer a few recommendations, then move on to a google search w/ key words like "rocket" or "engineering" and "competitions" :D

 

and Jenny, my oldest was very tenacious at that young age too. He wanted karate lessons for YEARS! now that he's 14, that has subsided a bit ;)

 

good luck!

[PariSarah]

I would be up front with my child about why I couldn't support his participation, and I would involve him in the search for alternatives. I'm assuming your commitment to pacifism is a real conviction, and not that sort of vague liberal squeamishness that passes for pacifism. Honestly, bright, motivated kids can tell the difference between their parents' convictions and their parents' mere prejudices, and they tend to reject furiously the latter while respecting, eventually, the former.

 

It sounds like he wants to be involved in something that feels grown-up and meaningful. It's probably pretty hard to find those sorts of opportunities, and he might turn down several likely candidates (starting a business? interning somewhere? going through some sort of apprenticeship program?) out of spite that he didn't get to do the one he wanted. But if you could persevere, and do your best to keep it a relationship-building search (encourage anything you don't actively object to, even if it seems dumb or pointless to you), I think you'll be able to work through it.

 

ETA: Please read the "vague liberal squeamishness" comment in, like, a contemptuous teenagery voice, not in my voice. As in, that's what teenagers think of their parents when their parents seem to have "values" that they don't really believe in. Not what I think of you. Make sense?

Edited January 6, 2009 by PariSarah

[Aggie]

 

FWIW, I come from a very PRO-military family. I am a proud miltary (Air Force) wife whose husband has deployed numerous times in defense of our country and to promote freedom abroad. I completely respect the lifestyle and know that it's needed for our country and indeed the world. I'm thankful for every young man and woman who grows up with the desire to serve their country. We need them, like it or not. And yet, when my ds9 tells me he wants to join the Army when he grows up and he wants to defend his country in war, it shakes the very core of my being.

 

I'm right here with you, Mari, except dh is retired Navy. My problem with my son's outlook on life is that he has NO idea of what he speaks right now. He sees the good, the honorable, the virtuous. He can't possibly, at his ripe ol' age of 7, grasp what serving in the military really means.

 

I pray that when he's 18-22 and can make that decision, that it's made with wisdom and counsel and not *just* the excitement he seems to have now.

 

And, Jenny, although you and I are on opposite sides of this issue (I'm a gun-toting, pro-military, peace-through-superior-firepower right winger :001_smile:), if/when I feel as strongly about something as you do about this matter, I won't let dc participate. You have that gut feeling for a reason. Your ds may not understand right now, but that's ok. He may when he's a parent.

 

Peace to you, Jenny.

Aggie

[Mari]

My problem with my son's outlook on life is that he has NO idea of what he speaks right now. He sees the good, the honorable, the virtuous. He can't possibly, at his ripe ol' age of 7, grasp what serving in the military really means.

 

I pray that when he's 18-22 and can make that decision, that it's made with wisdom and counsel and not *just* the excitement he seems to have now.

 

 

 

Yep, our kids are too young to understand the full meaning of life in the military and war in general. I take every opportunity, though to explain the "other side of things" whenever the issue comes up. On one hand I want to support his desires and consider that maybe he is called to this profession but on the other hand I believe it's my role as his mother to show him the good, bad AND ugly. His dad does the same, BTW. If he continues to pursue this interest he will definitely go in with both eyes open.

 

That's something else to consider, Jenny, if you do allow your ds to participate in CAP. For every glorious thing he hears about military life, counter with a negative. Let him see both sides of the coin and explain fully that everything comes with a price.

 

--Mari

[pqr]

Jenny,

 

My sons will join the military. This is not up for discussion; providing they are physically able they will serve their nation. I can trace my family history back for almost 1,000 years and the men have always carried arms for their nation. I will not allow my sons to bear the dishonor of breaking this tradition.

 

That being said, if you despise the military ethos through "liberal, anti-war, pacifist-leaning" opinions then you should not allow your son to join. Being a member of any association that emulates, in any way, a military culture requires the support of one's parents. Your son would need your support and need you to be proud of him for his participation and what he has achieved. If you are incapable of demonstrating that pride then you run the risk of harming his self esteem and your relationship with him.

 

You are in a tough position as you are considering, and you have every right to do this, denying him something that many find extremely pleasurable. Further you may deny him adventure, camaraderie and a real sense of achievement. This is your choice, but he may hold you accountable for your decision.

 

I suspect that you and I are diametrically opposite in our opinions, as I see honor in military service and am raising my sons to see the same. Nevertheless I wish you well in your decision and the hard choice you must make.

[Mommy22alyns]

Also, I was very upset to see on the website of the local group (the on in which my son would like to be involved) photos of kids posing in front of the airplane in which they took a "Military Familirization Flight," as well as photos and comments about cadets learning to shoot various kinds of weapons.

 

If this were a different kid, one I knew carried his own strong convictions (one way or the other) who wanted to join this organization JUST for the rocketry/aeronautics aspect of the thing, that might be different. But this is a kid who is still pretty unfinished in many ways and still far too vulnerable to the group mentality. So, we have to be very careful about which groups he's in.

 

 

I think you just answered your own question. :)

[Pamela H in Texas]

My sons will join the military. This is not up for discussion; providing they are physically able they will serve their nation. I can trace my family history back for almost 1,000 years and the men have always carried arms for their nation. I will not allow my sons to bear the dishonor of breaking this tradition.

 

You sons couldn't join the military until they were of an age to make the decision themselves. You certainly can groom them towards that direction and saddle them with the idea of bearing "the dishonor of breaking this tradition." However, in the end, it's their decision to make. If they choose not to go along with YOUR decision for them, they may also know they have the CHOICE whether or not to "bear the dishonor of breaking this tradition."

 

BTW, I have something I feel EQUALLY, if not more, strongly about. And I do hope they feel remorse if they turn away from it. I just also COMPLETELY understand that as adults, they will have their own choices to make regarding it and how they feel about turning away. I hope they choose what I would choose for them. I hope and pray about it every single day and will all my life.

 

So I do totally get where you are coming from. I just find it odd that you think you have final say in what an ADULT child chooses.

[DB in NJ]

I appreciate why you're torn over this. None of my children have expressed an interest in anything that would put me in a similar position, so I'm speaking theoretically here.

 

As a mom, my desire is to grow strong, capable, mature human beings. I do NOT want them to just be little carbon copies of me or their father. I don't know how I would react if one of them decided to join PETA or Code Pink, but I would *hope* that I would respect their decision (after making sure it was really how they felt and they weren't just trying to be the anti-me).

 

Your boy is only 10, but he sounds like an exceptional 10. A mature, bright 10. And frankly CAP sounds right up his alley. If you can accept that he very well may be participating in things that you disagree with, I think you'll be in a good place to separate your difference of opinion from your pride in your boy's achievements. And I know you'll thrill in his individuality -- even if you disagree. ;)

 

Good luck!

[pqr]

You sons couldn't join the military until they were of an age to make the decision themselves. You certainly can groom them towards that direction and saddle them with the idea of bearing "the dishonor of breaking this tradition." However, in the end, it's their decision to make.

 

Pamela,

 

Of course I cannot force them, but just as I was raised with certain expectations they are too. We believe (and this is just for mine, I make no aspersions on anyone who does not feel this) that a man does "his bit" in his nation's military. Until he has done so he will not have the rcomplete espect of his father, his grandfather and the others in his family. My sons may, of course, shirk what we believe is their duty but that would be dishonorable. As I intend to raise men not simply adult males thus the military option is not an option, but a requirement.

 

I admit that I am old fashioned, and perhaps hold views that have more in common with an earlier era, but I also strongly believe in payment of debt. Our nation provides us with so much and has for over two centuries been protected by brave and honorable men who would risk life and limb in her service. Asking, nay demanding, that my sons honor this nation by service is also merely asking that they repay a debt for all that they have been given and all the nation will give.

[Terabith]

Wow. That is a toughie.

 

I'm with you on the question. I'm pretty pacifist in my leanings also. I've thanked God that I don't have any boys (yet) because I would struggle with whether or not to allow them to join Boy Scouts.

 

And yet....

 

It does sound like it would be really, really good for him. A subject about which he is passionate. Strong male leadership. A cause of virtue (and he's at that age where he NEEDS heroism). I think if it was my choice, I would be hard to refuse to allow him to participate in that, despite my political and pacifistic beliefs, especially since I also see respecting my child's desires (assuming respect and obedience and such) as important considerations as well. And this sounds like more than a passing, fleeting interest for him. It also sounds very different from activities like church, choir, and dance. It's a totally different sort of activity.

 

It sounds to me like this is something that would be very beneficial to him. It's also the sort of thing that I would worry would be cause for rebellion. I can imagine myself in his position, desperately wanting to do something like this and being refused and holding a grudge and feeling hurt by my parents for a long time. I could also see that grudge leading down a slide towards rebellion by becoming more militaristic.....

 

I think I would let him do it. BUT I would talk a lot about counter arguments, information about peace, war, etc. I would try to get him also involved in political peace work and protests.

[Laura K (NC)]

My three boys are in boy scouts (one will get his Eagle within the year) and we've never had anything come up about anything military.

 

Oops, I just remembered that some shooting sports are available, both in cub scouts and boy scouts. But those are only available in certain camp situations and they are peripheral to the program(s). These are sports applications, not even hunting applications, like olympic archery has nothing to do with hunting.

 

Boy Scouts focus on many things, but military stuff isn't one of them. Baden Powell was a military man, and began Boy Scouts with his military expertise, but in the U.S. there are no vestiges of that beginning except in the uniform, which has evolved into more of a park ranger uniform in style and functionality.

 

If anyone did go into scouting for the rigor, discipline/organization, or mentality of military training, I think they would be sorely disappointed.

[Jenny in Florida]

My sons will join the military. This is not up for discussion; providing they are physically able they will serve their nation. I can trace my family history back for almost 1,000 years and the men have always carried arms for their nation. I will not allow my sons to bear the dishonor of breaking this tradition. . . .

 

I suspect that you and I are diametrically opposite in our opinions, as I see honor in military service and am raising my sons to see the same. Nevertheless I wish you well in your decision and the hard choice you must make.

 

Well, in order to understand where I'm coming from, I guess you'd have to pretend for a moment that one of your sons announced to you that he had no intention of serving in the military, that he had no appreciation or respect for your 1,000 years of tradition.

 

Now, let's pretend that he made this announcement when he was 10 and wanted you to drive him to meetings and buy him some t-shirts with anti-military slogans to wear to the anti-war protests he wanted to attend each week.

 

Then, if you "denied" your son that opportunity, you'd run all the same risks you warn me of, right? But I'll bet you'd do it, anyway, because it's what you believe in, right?

 

And, just for the record, I'm anti-war in a generalized way. I wish we as humans didn't need to do this to each other, and I do not support political decisions or actions that perpetuate organized agression. However, I bear no ill will towards members of the military and have great respect for people who choose to serve their country--or humanity at large--in whatever way they feel best suited to do. I have a brother-in-law who has been in the Navy for almost 20 years, and he's probably my favorite member of my husband's family.

 

So, please do not mistake my pacifist belief system for scorn of those who have different beliefs.

[Terabith]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. My difficulties with Boy Scouts wouldn't be with my pacifist leanings but with their stances against homosexuality. I would have a hard time in good conscience supporting my kid's involvement in an organization that I think (nationally) has political stances I don't support. However, I probably would let him join, depending on local leaders and troops. It has so much good stuff in it. But I'd still cringe. A lot.

[Audrey]

Let me preface this by saying: I'm very strongly anti-war machine.

 

Given just what you've said, if this were my kid, I would nix the idea of CAP. You mentioned that he's already in a rocketry club as well as a couple of other activities.

 

CAP is specifically a pro-military service organization. I just could not let my son be involved in something like that. Simple as that.

[RebeccaC]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. My difficulties with Boy Scouts wouldn't be with my pacifist leanings but with their stances against homosexuality. I would have a hard time in good conscience supporting my kid's involvement in an organization that I think (nationally) has political stances I don't support. However, I probably would let him join, depending on local leaders and troops. It has so much good stuff in it. But I'd still cringe. A lot.

 

 

So are you saying that you are comfortable with your son going on weekend campouts with a homosexual male?

 

How about this a troop where all the leaders are homosexual males who would be teaching your ds how to be a man and going on campouts with out you.

 

Would it be Ok if some of those homosexual males were card carrying members of the North American Man/Boy Love Association?

 

How about having trans as a Scout master going on camp outs with your ds and helping your ds discover what it means to be a man/woman?

 

How about having a homosexual male teaching how to spot a sexual predator when the dvd, "A Time to Tell," is shown. Are you comfortable with a homosexual male talking/teaching about sexuality with your son?

 

Just wondering...... There are reasons why the BSA has the stance it has on homosexuality/homosexuals.

Edited January 7, 2009 by RebeccaC

[Spy Car]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. My difficulties with Boy Scouts wouldn't be with my pacifist leanings but with their stances against homosexuality. I would have a hard time in good conscience supporting my kid's involvement in an organization that I think (nationally) has political stances I don't support. However, I probably would let him join, depending on local leaders and troops. It has so much good stuff in it. But I'd still cringe. A lot.

 

Coercing prayer isn't too cool either :001_rolleyes:

[Jenny in Florida]

And it's largely for the same reasons Terabith expressed. We also have a problem with the BSA's rather rigid stance on religious beliefs.

 

And, before anyone jumps in and tells me how wonderful their troop is, I know. I know that local troops can be much more liberal and reasonable than the national organization. However, our stance has always been not to allow our kids to get involved with anything we aren't willing to see through to the conclusion. And knowing that moving up in the ranks would mean contact with different troops and, assuming a child wanted to go for the Eagle Scout thing, eventually confronting the religion issue head on, we've chosen to stay out.

 

So are you saying that you are comfortable with your son going on weekend campouts with a homosexual male?

 

Um, well, in our case, yeah. Assuming I knew the man in question, I would be exactly as comfortable with this as I would trusting my son to any adult I knew well.

 

Would it be Ok if some of those homosexual males were card carrying members of the North American Man/Boy Love Association?

 

Um, well, no. But then I wouldn't trust a child of either gender to an adult of either gender or any sexual persuation who belonged to any association that advocated sex between adults and children.

 

And, by the way, this is a pretty big leap: from any old homosexual to child abuser.

 

How about having trans as a Scout master going on camp outs with your ds and helping your ds discover what it means to be a man/woman?

 

I'm just wondering: Do you really believe that either homosexuality or transgender issues are taught?

 

But, again, as long as it was an adult whom I knew and trusted, I would trust this person exactly as much as anyone else.

 

For what it's worth, by the way, the leaders of my daughter's church youth group the year she participated were a wonderful lesbian couple. The kids did all kinds of activities with these ladies, including spending time at their home. It never occurred to me to have a problem with it.

 

How about having a homosexual male teaching how to spot a sexual predator when the dvd, "A Time to Tell," is shown. Are you comfortable with a homosexual male talking/teaching about sexuality with your son?

 

Well, truthfully, these are issues we prefer to discuss at home. We've consistently opted out of the programs at our church that deal with sexuality, because our kids have always said they are most comfortable sharing those talks with us. So, my kids probably wouldn't be in the room for that DVD, anyway. However, assuming that both we and our child felt comfortable with that specific adult, why not?

 

Just wondering...... There are reasons why the BSA has the stance it has on homosexuality/homosexuals.

 

Yes, that's true. And I'm very much afraid it's because there are people out there who still have the same fears you're expressing here.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Jenny in Florida

[Jenny in Florida]

CAP is specifically a pro-military service organization. I just could not let my son be involved in something like that. Simple as that.

 

Thanks. I think I'm coming around to that conclusion, myself.

 

I wish that I could find a good alternative for him, as others have suggested. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot out there. Everything (including the things mentioned here) is either too young or not focused on his specific interest.

 

He is already a member of the National Rocketry Association and its local affiliate, but getting more active would require stepping up my husband's involvement. And that's not likely to happen.

 

I do very much appreciate all of you helping me to think this through, though. I think the best thing is for me to sit down with my son and explain to him exactly why this isn't going to happen and encourage him to let go of the idea before he becomes any more attatched to it.

 

Truly, thanks.

[Spy Car]

Baden Powell was a military man

 

And he was also a fascist sympathizer, and an admirer of Adolf Hitler. And the fascists in turn liked the model of Baden Powell's paramilitary youth groups and formed Italian fascist youth groups and Nazi Hitler Youth, and started parading around in khakis just like the Boy Scouts.

 

What a model for kids :001_rolleyes:

Edited January 7, 2009 by Spy Car

[Peek a Boo]

And he was also a fascist sympathizer, and an admirer of Adolf Hitler. And the fascists in turn liked the model of Baden Powell's paramilitary youth groups and formed Italian fascist youth groups and Nazi Hitler Youth, and started parading around in khakis just like the Boy Scouts.

 

What a model for kids :001_rolleyes:

 

 

yeah... same problem w/ the guy that wrote the US pledge ...:tongue_smilie:

 

Thankfully, the BSA is not about worshiping [or idolizing] Baden Powell, just as our pledge does not demand we hold the same views as its author.

 

There's no prayer coerced either. At least, not as national policy. In fact, policy forbids too much intrusion into a boy's religious life: only enough to let the BOY share how he fulfills his "duty to God." The funny thing is the BSA's official policy wrt religion is actually pretty darn loose, which is something i like a lot since i'm not exactly a mainstream Christian in a few key ways. I find more local BSA packs/ troops that close ranks and become more strict, while many Girl scout troops are the opposite: they close ranks and become more conservative than National, lol.

 

i do agree that if you don't share the BSA's policies about homosexuality [or premarital sex or adultery, which is just as bad to them], then no, BSA would not be a good fit. I actually agree w/ you, Jenny, about how I would respond to Rebecca's Q. I don't equate homosexuality w/ pedophilia, and the BSA already has enough problems from straight pedophiles as it is [ANY group/ institution dealing w/ kids has to be wary of this]. I also don't 'fear' homosexuality, I simply disagree w/ the lifestyle- the same way I do atheists ;). We do have friends who are gay [my oldest has spent the night at their house], and i have Very Good friends who are atheists. We don't need to agree 100% to get along.