s/0 Figuring things out

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

Honestly I am really regretful I was so misunderstood. I really was taken aback that some of these super smart kids were hesitant to ask for help with this task and no one was reaching out and helping them. I helped my dd and my dd helps people and I never said anyone should just be able to figure it out. I more am sad that people don’t ask for help and it isn’t readily offered. 
 

 

I think a lot of kids have had requests for help met with being told to “figure it out”, especially at school.  How many teachers have said “I can’t show all of you how to unlock your locker, you’ll have to figure it out” and the parents say “I can’t go to school with you to show you, figure it out”?  And some point it becomes rational to just assume that no help is coming so you just deal, such as by finding a work around like just carrying your stuff.  

[Clemsondana]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think a lot of kids have had requests for help met with being told to “figure it out”, especially at school.  How many teachers have said “I can’t show all of you how to unlock your locker, you’ll have to figure it out” and the parents say “I can’t go to school with you to show you, figure it out”?  And some point it becomes rational to just assume that no help is coming so you just deal, such as by finding a work around like just carrying your stuff.  

My experience with the teens that I teach is almost the exact opposite of that.  Parents and teachers are making repeated offers to help kids figure out all sorts of things and a portion of the kids act as if anything that they don't get the first time around is too hard for them to learn.  The kids who take advantage of the offers are light years ahead of where many of us adults were at their age.  But, it seems like there are also more kids that in the past who apply the 'I don't need to know that' that some kids have always said about a disliked academic subject to everyday life skills.  One friend commented on the number of teens who would hang with her kids and couldn't fix themselves a snack or simple meal.  I have more kids struggling to use the Canvas platform that I've taught with for the past several years - I offer to help repeatedly, but a month into the semester I'll hear from a parent that their kid never figured out how to submit assignments or find the videos.  I'm not sure where it comes from, since I hadn't seen it before this year, but several of the kids seem to think that if they don't understand the material when they leave class (after hearing it once) then it's too hard.  I'm working hard to teach them that they need to practice it at home, whether that means read or study or listen to a video, because very few of us understand complicated ideas after hearing them once.  

[TexasProud]

2 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

My experience with the teens that I teach is almost the exact opposite of that.  Parents and teachers are making repeated offers to help kids figure out all sorts of things and a portion of the kids act as if anything that they don't get the first time around is too hard for them to learn.  The kids who take advantage of the offers are light years ahead of where many of us adults were at their age.  But, it seems like there are also more kids that in the past who apply the 'I don't need to know that' that some kids have always said about a disliked academic subject to everyday life skills.  One friend commented on the number of teens who would hang with her kids and couldn't fix themselves a snack or simple meal.  I have more kids struggling to use the Canvas platform that I've taught with for the past several years - I offer to help repeatedly, but a month into the semester I'll hear from a parent that their kid never figured out how to submit assignments or find the videos.  I'm not sure where it comes from, since I hadn't seen it before this year, but several of the kids seem to think that if they don't understand the material when they leave class (after hearing it once) then it's too hard.  I'm working hard to teach them that they need to practice it at home, whether that means read or study or listen to a video, because very few of us understand complicated ideas after hearing them once.  

Yes, this is what I have seen as well... 

[SKL]

I do agree that kids today seem much more likely to give up when something is a challenge ... at least with respect to school stuff and chores.  (I see lots of effort put into learning popular stuff on the internet though.)

When I was in school, if I didn't get something, I could go home and study my textbook.  The options kids have today are so different.  It's hard for me to figure out ... with my presbyopia and all that ... so I am not sure whether they really have the online resources and won't use them, or whether they aren't being given needed tools (or taught how to use said tools).

Maybe there are too many options.  When I've asked teachers what my kid can use to shore up the concepts at home, they give me a whole list of online resources.  How to prioritize?  It seems that with one halfway decent hardcopy textbook, it was easier in my day.  But then again, I am not my kids.  We have different brains.  So I am really not sure how to define the problem.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Sigh.  AGAIN.  I am NOT saying that you don't teach them things.  You do.  But learning how to "figure things out" is a skill that needs to be taught. 

There are people, including *school teachers* who do NOT "teach" kids "how to figure things out".  Yes, it is a skill which needs to actually be taught.
 

[TexasProud]

48 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

There are people, including *school teachers* who do NOT "teach" kids "how to figure things out".  Yes, it is a skill which needs to actually be taught.
 

I agree, absolutely!! That was sort of the point.  It is a skill we need to teach.

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I do agree that kids today seem much more likely to give up when something is a challenge ... at least with respect to school stuff and chores.  (I see lots of effort put into learning popular stuff on the internet though.)

When I was in school, if I didn't get something, I could go home and study my textbook.  The options kids have today are so different.  It's hard for me to figure out ... with my presbyopia and all that ... so I am not sure whether they really have the online resources and won't use them, or whether they aren't being given needed tools (or taught how to use said tools).

Maybe there are too many options.  When I've asked teachers what my kid can use to shore up the concepts at home, they give me a whole list of online resources.  How to prioritize?  It seems that with one halfway decent hardcopy textbook, it was easier in my day.  But then again, I am not my kids.  We have different brains.  So I am really not sure how to define the problem.

I think the teachers over estimate how helpful online stuff is for specific things.  

[2squared]

I have two early 20-something employees, one who does figure stuff out and execute and one who does not. It is SO HARD to manage an early career professional who has to basically be babysat through problem solving. 

Learning how to figure stuff out and get things done is a critical life skill. 

[Corraleno]

The process of "figuring things out" often requires multiple steps, and even knowing how to break down the task into those steps may not be intuitive for a lot of people, or may be overwhelming for reasons outside their control (LDs, cognitive issues, mental health, etc.) Even people who may normally be pretty good at figuring things out for themselves may simply not have the time, energy, or bandwidth to do so when under pressure.

I've always been a figure-it-out-myself person, both by nature and necessity (abusive neglectful parents), but I have a kid with ADHD and anxiety who is great at some kinds of figuring-it-out and completely overwhelmed by other kinds (although at least he's good about asking for help when overwhelmed). And then I have another kid who thinks she's great at figuring things out and rarely asks for help, but unfortunately she often "figures things out" in an incorrect or incomplete way because her solutions are based on stuff-she-already-knows, without understanding that some of the information she needs is stuff she doesn't know yet!

It's easy to say "kids need to be taught how to figure stuff out," but I think that's actually harder to implement than it sounds. It involves teaching them how to figure out what the actual problem is to begin with, break down the task of finding a solution into multiple steps, find the information they need to complete those steps (including figuring out what they need to know that they don't know), and then implement those steps, plus knowing how to reorganize and redirect if something changes or isn't working.

And honestly I think a lot of that is just inborn personality and innate skill. Some people just intuitively know how to analyze problems and find solutions in a logical way, so they take for granted that everyone should be able to do that, but not everyone is wired that way. And that's also what makes it a difficult skill set to teach, because most of the people who are good at it are intuitively good at it, and it's not easy to teach something that "just comes naturally" to people for whom it's not natural at all.

[Faith-manor]

I think for neuro typical students, it is a matter of "firm foundation" and that is really set in the elementary years. I feel like our culture and our schools fall down on this in a big way these days. Puberty is a tough time to be told sink or swim when that foundation is not there. And confidence is a huge issue. If the parents helicopter, and the school babies at times when independence in the little things that build confidence, then it is going to be a bugger later. I see a lot of that. 

As Rosie said, it is all about investment. Not every kid is born naturally confident to embrace problem solving. It needs to be nurtured, and that means the adults in that child's life needed to step up when they were young. Let them figure out how to do some easy things after one demonstration, words of encouragement, hints and Socrafic method. Those early successes mean the world to them, and lay that foundation for the future. I see so much unnecessary "doing it for them" at the elementary level which isn't good. I get why. Student to teacher ratios are too high, and it is easier and less time intensive to just do it for them, spell it all out, walk everyone through every.little.thing simultaneously. It doesn't bode well when they are older.

And without that confidence based in those early successes and mini victories, making the choice to haul everything around and use the bathroom seems way easier than spending the whole 5-10 minutes between classes fumbling at your locker or whatever the issue is at the moment.

I wish for a world, a culture, an education system that sets up our youth for success and nort failure. I know. Pie in the sky, wishful thinking.

Edited March 14 by Faith-manor

[Pam in CT]

re identifying the resources / breaking down the steps required to "figure it out"

38 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The process of "figuring things out" often requires multiple steps, and even knowing how to break down the task into those steps may not be intuitive for a lot of people, or may be overwhelming for reasons outside their control (LDs, cognitive issues, mental health, etc.) Even people who may normally be pretty good at figuring things out for themselves may simply not have the time, energy, or bandwidth to do so when under pressure.

I've always been a figure-it-out-myself person, both by nature and necessity (abusive neglectful parents), but I have a kid with ADHD and anxiety who is great at some kinds of figuring-it-out and completely overwhelmed by other kinds (although at least he's good about asking for help when overwhelmed). And then I have another kid who thinks she's great at figuring things out and rarely asks for help, but unfortunately she often "figures things out" in an incorrect or incomplete way because her solutions are based on stuff-she-already-knows, without understanding that some of the information she needs is stuff she doesn't know yet!

It's easy to say "kids need to be taught how to figure stuff out," but I think that's actually harder to implement than it sounds. It involves teaching them how to figure out what the actual problem is to begin with, break down the task of finding a solution into multiple steps, find the information they need to complete those steps (including figuring out what they need to know that they don't know), and then implement those steps, plus knowing how to reorganize and redirect if something changes or isn't working.

And honestly I think a lot of that is just inborn personality and innate skill. Some people just intuitively know how to analyze problems and find solutions in a logical way, so they take for granted that everyone should be able to do that, but not everyone is wired that way. And that's also what makes it a difficult skill set to teach, because most of the people who are good at it are intuitively good at it, and it's not easy to teach something that "just comes naturally" to people for whom it's not natural at all.

This.

And it's hard to overestimate how much being in either an extended state of anxiety, or the pressure of an extreme moment, impairs the ability of even someone who is usually able to figure stuff out, to do so while fighting other battles. One of my kids is enduring that now.

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

My experience with the teens that I teach is almost the exact opposite of that.  Parents and teachers are making repeated offers to help kids figure out all sorts of things and a portion of the kids act as if anything that they don't get the first time around is too hard for them to learn.  The kids who take advantage of the offers are light years ahead of where many of us adults were at their age.  But, it seems like there are also more kids that in the past who apply the 'I don't need to know that' that some kids have always said about a disliked academic subject to everyday life skills.  One friend commented on the number of teens who would hang with her kids and couldn't fix themselves a snack or simple meal.  I have more kids struggling to use the Canvas platform that I've taught with for the past several years - I offer to help repeatedly, but a month into the semester I'll hear from a parent that their kid never figured out how to submit assignments or find the videos.  I'm not sure where it comes from, since I hadn't seen it before this year, but several of the kids seem to think that if they don't understand the material when they leave class (after hearing it once) then it's too hard.  I'm working hard to teach them that they need to practice it at home, whether that means read or study or listen to a video, because very few of us understand complicated ideas after hearing them once.  

There is so much to address in this post that I could write a clinical paper for it all.

Firstly. Like Faith-Manor said, the bulk of the foundational skills needed to accept, understand, and execute the help you describe here is built primarily before age 7 and often much of that foundation is starting to settle or firm up by age 12/14.  Now that does NOT mean it isn’t possible for high schoolers or even adults to manage to build up that foundation later. But it DOES mean that the foundation needs a lot of scaffolding  to build it during that time. And it DOES mean that those people are going to have 2-3x the work bc effort to manage building foundation AND also at the same time accept, understand and execute that help.  It’s like trying to build a house frame while still pouring foundation.  Is it possible? Yes. Is it hella harder and more prone to falling apart? Absolutely.  As though that’s not enough, don’t forget that nature decides to slap on some fresh hot puberty to deal with too. 

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I do agree that kids today seem much more likely to give up when something is a challenge ... at least with respect to school stuff and chores.  (I see lots of effort put into learning popular stuff on the internet though.)

Actually this is normal for teen development. Up to age 12/14, kids are expanding their world and learning by exponents. At about that age though most kids start to narrow their interests. And a lot of that process is eliminations. They become less interested in their nuclear world and more interested in where they fit in the bigger world. And a huge part of that is the internet and peers. 

3 hours ago, SKL said:

When I was in school, if I didn't get something, I could go home and study my textbook.  The options kids have today are so different.  It's hard for me to figure out ... with my presbyopia and all that ... so I am not sure whether they really have the online resources and won't use them, or whether they aren't being given needed tools (or taught how to use said tools).

Maybe there are too many options.  When I've asked teachers what my kid can use to shore up the concepts at home, they give me a whole list of online resources.  How to prioritize?  It seems that with one halfway decent hardcopy textbook, it was easier in my day.  But then again, I am not my kids.  We have different brains.  So I am really not sure how to define the problem.

While you are different people, you do not have different brains. “Kids today” are not some new species of human. I 100% agree with you about the digital overload being a problem more than it’s a solution at these ages.  Far too often I see “figure it out (online)” as nothing more than a teacher who can’t or won’t teach and then gets upset when students and parents don’t value them as teachers. 

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I think the teachers over estimate how helpful online stuff is for specific things.  

Absolutely.  The same teachers who struggle with how to use the same chrome books their students have and still think teaching via death by power point is “dynamic teaching with technology” will be the same teacher that ironically can’t grasp that their students can’t and shouldn’t have to sift through the ocean depths of the World Wide Web to discern what is useful and creditable towards answering their questions in a way they understand by end of class tomorrow. And I think it’s because of this insidious presumption that “kids today have different brains/are different”. No. They are not. in more ways than not, kids today are not much different from kids 50 years ago. What’s different is the environment adults have created for students to try to navigate.

[Murphy101]

46 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re identifying the resources / breaking down the steps required to "figure it out"

This.

And it's hard to overestimate how much being in either an extended state of anxiety, or the pressure of an extreme moment, impairs the ability of even someone who is usually able to figure stuff out, to do so while fighting other battles. One of my kids is enduring that now.

I’m so sorry.  It’s so hard to see teens and young adult struggle with mental illness.

Depression is such a unaffecting word. So is “brain fog”.  They sound so… trivial. It sounds like someone saying, “Hey, today’s brain forecast is some midday fog and mostly cloudy with a chance of tears - so take some meds with you today and don’t forget your smile!”

We need some kind of better more emphatic descriptive language for how difficult this illness is.

 

 

Edited March 14 by Murphy101

[SKL]

11 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

While you are different people, you do not have different brains. “Kids today” are not some new species of human. I 100% agree with you about the digital overload being a problem more than it’s a solution at these ages.

Actually we do have different brains.  We are not genetically related.  My kids have completely different talents and struggles than I had.

My point was that, while a consulting one hardcopy textbook was enough for me to clear up any confusion, that doesn't mean it is the best solution for everyone.  Comparing my experience to my kids' experience is not apples to apples.  There are too many variables at play for me to draw universal conclusions.

I do feel like the switch to almost 100% online is not ideal, especially not all at once.  But I don't think we need to be 100% paper either.  I hope smart people are doing smart research to optimize the mix.

[Murphy101]

Just now, SKL said:

Actually we do have different brains.  We are not genetically related.  My kids have completely different talents and struggles than I had.

My point was that, while a consulting one hardcopy textbook was enough for me to clear up any confusion, that doesn't mean it is the best solution for everyone.  Comparing my experience to my kids' experience is not apples to apples.  There are too many variables at play for me to draw universal conclusions.

I do feel like the switch to almost 100% online is not ideal, especially not all at once.  But I don't think we need to be 100% paper either.  I hope smart people are doing smart research to optimize the mix.

The supposedly most successful people tend to send their kids to very expensive private schools that also tend to be very low tech.  The more successful in technology parents, the more likely this is true.

I don’t think we need to send teens to Amish schools, but I do think tech should be far more narrow in scope of use and doesn’t replace actual in hand materials and teaching of a teacher. 

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

re identifying the resources / breaking down the steps required to "figure it out"

This.

And it's hard to overestimate how much being in either an extended state of anxiety, or the pressure of an extreme moment, impairs the ability of even someone who is usually able to figure stuff out, to do so while fighting other battles. One of my kids is enduring that now.

Or even sleep deprivation, and are there teenagers anywhere who aren't sleep deprived?

[Faith-manor]

48 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

The supposedly most successful people tend to send their kids to very expensive private schools that also tend to be very low tech.  The more successful in technology parents, the more likely this is true.

I don’t think we need to send teens to Amish schools, but I do think tech should be far more narrow in scope of use and doesn’t replace actual in hand materials and teaching of a teacher. 

I agree. Can we get rid of the damn calculators before 8th grade!!! Actually writing, long hand, solving problems activates the long term memory receptors of the brain. Same with pencil and paper and actually writing sentences on paper. Typing is for later. Little kids shouldn't be doing it.

Science doesn't need tech until they are much older, and even then, there is a lot of good old fashioned solid science that doesn't need tech. They take up arduino programming when they are old enough to join the robotics team. Beakers and microscopes and flasks.....that's the ticket.

I would never be elected to anything related to education because I am too darn radical.

[Murphy101]

19 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I agree. Can we get rid of the damn calculators before 8th grade!!! Actually writing, long hand, solving problems activates the long term memory receptors of the brain. Same with pencil and paper and actually writing sentences on paper. Typing is for later. Little kids shouldn't be doing it.

Science doesn't need tech until they are much older, and even then, there is a lot of good old fashioned solid science that doesn't need tech. They take up arduino programming when they are old enough to join the robotics team. Beakers and microscopes and flasks.....that's the ticket.

I would never be elected to anything related to education because I am too darn radical.

Ugh. I once had someone comment that my kids were going to be “behind” bc other kids were learning how to make power points in 4th grade.  To which I responded, Do you know what computer the people who invented computers used?  The people who invented nearly all our tech didn’t have any of it as kids. Also. If a 4th grade can make a power point, I’m confident that if they aren’t obsolete (which would be for the better) when my kids are teens or adults - then as an adult I’m sure they will be able to learn it. Since the entire premise of tech is that it is supposed to be a tool that makes it easier to do something. 

[sassenach]

I have a a figure it out kid who is ridiculously self-motivated. I have another kid who wants everything spoon fed (and a couple of kids that are somewhere in-between). I consider it one of my parenting failures that I bailed the second kid out way too often. They needed to figure it out far more than I made them, mostly because they were willing to whine and I had a low tolerance for seeing my kids struggle. As a young adult, I am seeing the consequences of this and I consider this kid to have fallen behind in maturity and launching. 

IMO, figure it out is basically equivalent to grit. Dh and I are very, very gritty. We don't give up. That is not equivalent to never asking for help but it does imply that one will at least try to work things out on their own and use their resources. Is asking for help a resource? Absolutely. But there is appropriate asking for help and inappropriate. Example: One of my children has a classmate that relies exclusively on his mother and fellow classmates to help him fill out paperwork and get signed up for necessary things. He's a really smart kid and fully capable of doing this himself. This kid failed to fill out important paperwork for clinical placement and was shocked to miss the first day. That's a problem. Fully functioning adults need to file their taxes and do a million other things that require them to take the first step to figure sh*t out. 

So it's a little of both. It's not a problem to ask for help but it's also really, really important to have the skill of figuring it out.

[Heartstrings]

7 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Far too often I see “figure it out (online)” as nothing more than a teacher who can’t or won’t teach and then gets upset when students and parents don’t value them as teachers

All too often.  

[Carrie12345]

17 hours ago, Corraleno said:

It's easy to say "kids need to be taught how to figure stuff out," but I think that's actually harder to implement than it sounds. It involves teaching them how to figure out what the actual problem is to begin with, break down the task of finding a solution into multiple steps, find the information they need to complete those steps (including figuring out what they need to know that they don't know), and then implement those steps, plus knowing how to reorganize and redirect if something changes or isn't working.

Starting early is key.

The first example that came to my mind was spelling/reading. My kids were always asking me to spell words for them from the time they began to write letters and grasp phonics.   
“How do you spell bug?”   
“How do you THINK you spell bug?”  
“I don’t know.”  
“Well, what sound does it start with?”  
“Buh. Buh. B!” (Added the ‘uh’ for clarity, not for phonetic teaching, lol.). 
“Right! You knew it! What sound comes next?”  
Etc.

Did the same basic steps to walk my 20yo through a professional issue the other day. She automatically knew where I was headed in the conversation and was annoyed by it, but she made her own plan with my annoying prompts to use her own brain and then successfully took care of it the next day. It was the first time she needed direct nudging in a long while, but it was like “recharging” her brain out of its funk. I didn’t solve her problem for her, but reminded her of her ability to solve it for herself.

And yes, this has had to be adjusted for each of my 5 kids’ different circumstances over the years, but always the same principle from the get go. Even as crying infants, “Uh oh! What do we need? A toy? A diaper? A walk? Let’s see… That did it!”

Maybe as someone who has always talked to herself it just came naturally to me, lol.

[Clemsondana]

17 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

There is so much to address in this post that I could write a clinical paper for it all.

Firstly. Like Faith-Manor said, the bulk of the foundational skills needed to accept, understand, and execute the help you describe here is built primarily before age 7 and often much of that foundation is starting to settle or firm up by age 12/14.  Now that does NOT mean it isn’t possible for high schoolers or even adults to manage to build up that foundation later. But it DOES mean that the foundation needs a lot of scaffolding  to build it during that time. And it DOES mean that those people are going to have 2-3x the work bc effort to manage building foundation AND also at the same time accept, understand and execute that help.  It’s like trying to build a house frame while still pouring foundation.  Is it possible? Yes. Is it hella harder and more prone to falling apart? Absolutely.  As though that’s not enough, don’t forget that nature decides to slap on some fresh hot puberty to deal with too. 

Actually this is normal for teen development. Up to age 12/14, kids are expanding their world and learning by exponents. At about that age though most kids start to narrow their interests. And a lot of that process is eliminations. They become less interested in their nuclear world and more interested in where they fit in the bigger world. And a huge part of that is the internet and peers. 

While you are different people, you do not have different brains. “Kids today” are not some new species of human. I 100% agree with you about the digital overload being a problem more than it’s a solution at these ages.  Far too often I see “figure it out (online)” as nothing more than a teacher who can’t or won’t teach and then gets upset when students and parents don’t value them as teachers. 

Absolutely.  The same teachers who struggle with how to use the same chrome books their students have and still think teaching via death by power point is “dynamic teaching with technology” will be the same teacher that ironically can’t grasp that their students can’t and shouldn’t have to sift through the ocean depths of the World Wide Web to discern what is useful and creditable towards answering their questions in a way they understand by end of class tomorrow. And I think it’s because of this insidious presumption that “kids today have different brains/are different”. No. They are not. in more ways than not, kids today are not much different from kids 50 years ago. What’s different is the environment adults have created for students to try to navigate.

I think the struggle that I'm having with this discussion is that the things that I'm talking about are changes over the 12 years that I've taught, not from decades ago, or in a different setting.  Some of the students are younger siblings of previous students.  Multiple long-time teachers at our co-op are having the same struggles.  We are trying to figure out if it's a cohort effect - that this group of students is reinforcing each others' behavior - or if there is some other influence causing it (videos they are sharing, attitudes on a TV show, etc).  I have often had students who didn't find particular classes or subjects interesting, and some who didn't like school and focused on art or learning a trade.  I've never, until this year, had discussions with students in which they said that they didn't want to have to learn anything and they just wanted to sit around listening to Taylor Swift.  Several of the moms have discussed the fact that the kids will come to us and say 'I don't know what 'autosomal' means' and the moms will ask if they've checked their notes, looked in the glossary or index, etc.  These are kids who are smart and capable, but they tend to think that if they don't remember it from classroom discussion, then it probably wasn't mentioned.  Parents are working on it, but 'I don't know the definition for a vocabulary word' is not the kind of problem that most neurotypical teens need coaching on how to solve, and if so they don't continue to have that struggle all year.  It's not learned helplessness and it's not neglect, in that most parents don't indulge it and do coach through it, and the kids ultimately end up doing the work.  But, it's a new thing to have happening with more than the occasional student.  In the first 3 weeks of class, I answered the question 'Do we need to write this down?' with 'If I write it on the board, it's important enough to write down' multiple times each class, because multiple students thought that they shouldn't have to do that much writing.   Several refuse to take notes, taking pictures of the board after I write whatever I'm writing.  I have occasionally had a student with a diagnosis of some sort ask to do this, but I wouldn't expect that 1/3 of the class has dyslexia or other issue that makes writing a challenge.  Of course, not writing makes it even less likely that they'll remember anything.  Even the ballroom dance teacher is seeing changes in student learning and interactions between students - it's not just academic.  

Meanwhile, this year's soon-to-be graduates and the seniors from last year are almost the opposite.  Not everybody - there's variation between students, and teens are teens - but it was much less common for kids to just throw up their hands rather than ask a question or open their book or check out Khan Academy.  I have tentatively settled on the idea that group norms are the biggest influence with these kids.  I'm struggling to believe that a bunch of homeschooling parents suddenly became neglectful.  I know the families enough to know that in some cases other children in the same family have diagnoses (and usually workarounds, medication, or therapy if needed), so I wouldn't expect that neurodivergence is the primary driver of the difference with this group.  What it seems like, as somebody who has watched it in my classroom and also who has kids in both of these groups, is that in one group being capable is cool - they happily help each other and will ask for help when needed, but mastering things is important to them, while in the other saying 'It's impossible' is cool.  In both groups, being sleep-deprived and being busy are part of the one-upmanship game for some teens, as it has been since I was in high school, so the groups are similar in other ways. 

So, I read the OP in light of those observations.  I think that when I was a student we would have helped a kid who actually struggled to manage their lock, as we did with a couple of kids who had challenges in other areas, but we also would have looked askance at a kid who was an 'average kid' who just decided that it was too hard to learn.  One of us would have said 'Come on, we'll practice after school' and we would have done that because we wouldn't have wanted a friend to be unable to manage this task.  That's what I think the current crop of seniors at co-op would do, too.  But, with the younger group...I think kids would be much more likely to say that it's too hard, and once a couple of the kids did it then likely several of them would follow suit.  A couple of kids who don't say that the work is impossible - who have more of the mindset of the older kids - sometimes snark back at the the complaints, and they are considered judgey...which at this point they kind of are, but I think that it reinforces the dynamic even more.  

These are good kids, and I care about them.  I've known some of these families for years.  It's hard to watch them set themselves up to see challenge as impossible.  I hate watching them not learn things, because while none of us know their likely life paths, I am guessing that they will be better served with basic academic knowledge, writing ability, and math skills.  These kids aren't any less capable than the seniors were at their age, and we are working to figure out how to help them build confidence and learn skills.  A couple of the teachers are working on it in different ways. 

Edited March 15 by Clemsondana

[Carol in Cal.]

22 hours ago, SKL said:

I do agree that kids today seem much more likely to give up when something is a challenge ... at least with respect to school stuff and chores.  (I see lots of effort put into learning popular stuff on the internet though.)

When I was in school, if I didn't get something, I could go home and study my textbook.  The options kids have today are so different.  It's hard for me to figure out ... with my presbyopia and all that ... so I am not sure whether they really have the online resources and won't use them, or whether they aren't being given needed tools (or taught how to use said tools).

Maybe there are too many options.  When I've asked teachers what my kid can use to shore up the concepts at home, they give me a whole list of online resources.  How to prioritize?  It seems that with one halfway decent hardcopy textbook, it was easier in my day.  But then again, I am not my kids.  We have different brains.  So I am really not sure how to define the problem.

When my DD was in high school, her textbook (which was not cheap, and we had to purchase it) did not have the actual theorems in it for geometry.  She was supposed to figure those out in class exercises, note them, and apply them without a reference book.  When I stepped in to help her study for her final I was appalled to have to look things up through google searches to be able to figure them out, because her book literally did not include the material that she was supposed to learn.  It’s so stupid.

[SKL]

24 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

When my DD was in high school, her textbook (which was not cheap, and we had to purchase it) did not have the actual theorems in it for geometry.  She was supposed to figure those out in class exercises, note them, and apply them without a reference book.  When I stepped in to help her study for her final I was appalled to have to look things up through google searches to be able to figure them out, because her book literally did not include the material that she was supposed to learn.  It’s so stupid.

Yeah, the one math textbook my kids did have in high school would never provide answers for the examples.  Thanks a lot for nothing.  😛

Photomath taught better.

[regentrude]

@Clemsondana

We are observing something similar in our college classes. My attendance is the lowest it has been in 20 years, but even more concerning is what many instructors across disciplines report: students who attend but refuse to participate. They won't do the activities, won't turn in the completed work, play on their phones through the entire class.

This is a four-year university.

I regularly have students in the homework help sessions who say they don't understand how to do the problems. I ask "were you in class today?" "I'm in the online section." " ok. Did you watch today's lecture?" "No." Which means they expect me to spoonfeed them the homework solution because they couldn't be bothered to watch the lecture which contains several examples. It's aggravating. 

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

@Clemsondana

We are observing something similar in our college classes. My attendance is the lowest it has been in 20 years, but even more concerning is what many instructors across disciplines report: students who attend but refuse to participate. They won't do the activities, won't turn in the completed work, play on their phones through the entire class.

This is a four-year university.

I regularly have students in the homework help sessions who say they don't understand how to do the problems. I ask "were you in class today?" "I'm in the online section." " ok. Did you watch today's lecture?" "No." Which means they expect me to spoonfeed them the homework solution because they couldn't be bothered to watch the lecture which contains several examples. It's aggravating. 

This is nuts! I do think it goes back to three things. The foundation of elementary school being so crappy, spinning wheels in middle school to the point that maturity is delayed, and hand holding through high school and lack of consequences related to that like our local high school constantly handing out passing grades for doing nothing in order to keep graduation rates high.

Probably included is our 1 size fits all education system. College isn't for anyone and that is not a disparaging comment. We needs trades, we need technicians, we need farmers and master gardeners, and custodians, and road construction workers, and all manner of hard working people in so many areas. Kids are not being introduced to much of anything but "no one will hire you without college now" which is pretty true and totally wrong headed. In our area, apart from cashier and bagging groceries it is next to impossible to get a job interview without at least a 2 year degree. Employers decided that would be the proof of literacy and basic knowledge because high school diplomas are not a signal of foundational skill now. Sigh.

I guess, LOL, I can think of one more thing. Gen Z and Alpha are I think depressed, and I am not saying that flippant, and traumatized. They live in fear of being killed at school, they lived through the education nightmare of the Pandemic including college kids who had a total mess on their hands with the shutdowns, they see global warming and their world burning but the people who are supposed to care about them and take action did nothing before or after they were born, and they are inheriting another global nightmare, they hear everyone saying they are the worst generations ever, and they feel like they will never get ahead, the deck is stacked against them entirely, and therefore they are NOT motivated at all. They are in the muck, and emotionally and mentally don't have the bandwidth or willingness to take charge of their lives.

It is scary and heart breaking. There were young people in the courtroom yesterday that listened to Ethan Crumbley's father being found guilty. Ethan, a classmate of their childhood, the kid next door, was sentenced to life without parole in December, his mother found guilty a couple months ago. That entire school community of students is suffering so badly, and this next graduating class is coming to the hallowed halls of college academia Fall 2024. They have already also suffered the horror that more than one of their high school mates who graduated in 2022, were in the very same building of the MSU shooting in 2023. How much more can they take? If I were their future college professors, trades instructors, and employers, I would consider it a miracle if they are functioning adults at all. This is rampant even if the student hasn't personally been through a shooting because they live in constant fear of it which just wears them down.

We are going to see more, not less of this. 

 

[SKL]

I wonder if part of the problem is that we behave as if everyone can/should become good at everything.

Honestly, too much of this thread sounds like one of my kids.  But, if we only look at the areas relevant to her life / career goals, she's doing fine, I think.  I think it's realistic to hope that she'll do OK in college and secure a career.

I've been thinking about college fit these days.  Just because a young person "can" get into a program, that doesn't mean s/he "should" pursue that program.  Why on earth would a college student take physics or higher math, if s/he wasn't motivated to learn those subjects?

Or is part of the problem that young people really don't know what they want to do?  I understand changing one's mind, but are kids just not thinking in terms of "what I want to be when I grow up"?  I know my youngest was really lost in this respect until she was about 16.  My eldest had a "goal" from a much earlier age, but changed her mind at age 16.

I do wonder what cell phone usage is going to look like when my kids are in college.  I hope they will care enough about their goals to put the dang phones down during learning time.  I sure don't plan on paying for them to waste time for four years.

[SKL]

Speaking of "figuring it out" ....

My kid just texted me, "did I get the hep b vaccine?  I need to know for this job I'm accepting."

Me:  "You got the one the seniors need.  I'll have to look up which ones you've had.  Send me a list of what medical stuff you need answered."

Her:  "I already figured it out." 😛

Note to self:  that's another thing I need to transfer to my kids:  their medical info.  Personally, I would not be able to document which vaccines I had as a kid.  Our kids are likely to need this info.

[Heartstrings]

25 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

guess, LOL, I can think of one more thing. Gen Z and Alpha are I think depressed, and I am not saying that flippant, and traumatized. They live in fear of being killed at school, they lived through the education nightmare of the Pandemic including college kids who had a total mess on their hands with the shutdowns, they see global warming and their world burning but the people who are supposed to care about them and take action did nothing before or after they were born, and they are inheriting another global nightmare, they hear everyone saying they are the worst generations ever, and they feel like they will never get ahead, the deck is stacked against them entirely, and therefore they are NOT motivated at all. They are in the muck, and emotionally and mentally don't have the bandwidth or willingness to take charge of their lives.

I do NOT see enough adults taking this seriously enough.  I’m not sure how kids can go through monthly shooting drills for years and not end up traumatized.  And now “regular” drills aren’t enough, I’ve heard of schools assigning a child per class to pretend to scream and panic to “see how the other students respond”.  Badly, that’s how.  Seriously WTF.   It’s almost like the adults are trying to make it as traumatizing as possible.  
 

As for COVID shutdowns, I think all of the kids basically caught the adults with their pants down. They saw that the adults largely have no freaking clue and now the kids can’t unlearn that.  You kind of figure that out as an adult but the kids aren’t suppose to know it! How can they function when their whole foundation was shaken?  

[regentrude]

@Faith-manor yes, the kids face a lot of global issues. However, is it really that much different from previous generations? They each had trauma. WWI, WWII, cold war, nuclear threat.... There is more going on. Something that makes today's student generation incredibly fragile and without resilience. If a quiz over the homework brings them to tears and "traumatizes" them, something is very very wrong.

 

[Faith-manor]

Just now, regentrude said:

@Faith-manor yes, the kids face a lot of global issues. However, is it really that much different from previous generations? They each had trauma. WWI, WWII, cold war, nuclear threat.... There is more going on. Something that makes today's student generation incredibly fragile and without resilience. If a quiz over the homework brings them to tears and "traumatizes" them, something is very very wrong.

 

I agree. There is something very wrong. I definitely do not know how to pinpoint the thing that would help them become far less fragile. I also know that to some degree, there was a lot of major PTSD, depression, all the things after the two world wars, but it wasn't talked about much. I had great aunts who became unable to function for the rest of their lives when husbands/sons did not come home. They literally could not pull themselves up. Family history research has revealed a lot of stories, a shocking number of stories of massive dysfunction after the 2nd WW. I get that the US did not experience anything near the horrors that Europe did. I don't know what the answers are. Possibly one good place to look is lack of hope due to so much insane negativity in the press, in social media. They may be much more bombarded with hopeless messaging. We have had a major change in the way in which leadership acts, and the messaging they portray. That would get into politics so I can't say more. But maybe this is one big factor in why they are more fragile than previous generations are perceived to be.

I 100% acknowledge that you are literally on the frontlines of the mess as you try to figure out how to educate these young adults. I don't want to appear dismissive because that is not what I mean. I am just seeking to understand them, the issues. I don't know how to be helpful if I can't get some insight.

We meet in 1 hr for the first time with our 2024/25 NASA University Student Launch team. We will be official volunteer to educators for that university, and will have 15 young adults under our wings to see through this very difficult rocketry competition. If I can glean anything from our discussions on this board that will help Mark and I understand what we could be up against, how to navigate it, how to help without doing their work for them which is definitely NOT going to happen, then I am all ears!

[SKL]

16 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I do NOT see enough adults taking this seriously enough.  I’m not sure how kids can go through monthly shooting drills for years and not end up traumatized.  And now “regular” drills aren’t enough, I’ve heard of schools assigning a child per class to pretend to scream and panic to “see how the other students respond”.  Badly, that’s how.  Seriously WTF.   It’s almost like the adults are trying to make it as traumatizing as possible.  
 

As for COVID shutdowns, I think all of the kids basically caught the adults with their pants down. They saw that the adults largely have no freaking clue and now the kids can’t unlearn that.  You kind of figure that out as an adult but the kids aren’t suppose to know it! How can they function when their whole foundation was shaken?  

I see things pretty much opposite of your take.  This is an amazing time to be alive.  Most things are far easier to get than when we were growing up.

We had our own generational fears.  In elementary school, it was the fear of nuclear war, with fallout shelters all around the schools.  In high school, it was bomb threats.  (In addition to tornado and fire drills.)  We experienced the Challenger disaster, 9/11, numerous wars, AIDS and other deadly disease outbreaks.  We had the ice age scare AND then the global warming scare, violent strikes, "stagflation," and plenty of individuals doing dumbass things.  Racism and various __phobias were far worse than today.  Mental health care was practically non-existent.  Besides that, most kids were literally beaten in school and at home.  And most kids were told they had zero hope of going to college.  And yet, you say today is worse?

I do agree with one thing - the bolded above.  Why do some people keep telling our youngsters that this is the worst freaking time in human history?  And then we tell them that they probably aren't strong enough to deal with it.  And also that they, as individuals, have zero accountability for their future.  We are asking for serious trouble.

Edited March 15 by SKL

[Faith-manor]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

I do agree with one thing - the bolded above.  Why do some people keep telling our youngsters that this is the worst freaking time in human history?  And then we tell them that they probably aren't strong enough to deal with it.  And also that they, as individuals, have zero accountability for their future.  We are asking for serious trouble.

I too think the messaging from adults is a major issue, from leadership and media outlets in particular. I have to wonder if the intent is to deliberately paralyze young people into being a fearful, cowering hoard that is easy to manipulate and dominate. It is working. But the outcome may not be what is expected because once an entire generation hits rock bottom and is fairly desperate, perceived reality vs. true reality or not, they tend to start fighting back hard.

But yes. Messaging. The messaging had been absolutely atrocious, and that's a very hard thing for parents to fight back against....one or two voices in a sea of millions gets drowned out.

[Heartstrings]

17 minutes ago, SKL said:

I see things pretty much opposite of your take.  This is an amazing time to be alive.  Most things are far easier to get than when we were growing up.

We had our own generational fears.  In elementary school, it was the fear of nuclear war, with fallout shelters all around the schools.  In high school, it was bomb threats.  We experienced the Challenger disaster, 9/11, numerous wars, AIDS and other deadly disease outbreaks.  We had the ice age scare AND then the global warming scare, violent strikes, "stagflation," and plenty of individuals doing dumbass things.  Racism and various __phobias were far worse than today.  Mental health care was practically non-existent.  Besides that, most kids were literally beaten in school and at home.  And most kids were told they had zero hope of going to college.  And yet, you say today is worse?

I do agree with one thing - the bolded above.  Why do some people keep telling our youngsters that this is the worst freaking time in human history?  And then we tell them that they probably aren't strong enough to deal with it.  And also that they, as individuals, have zero accountability for their future.  We are asking for serious trouble.

I think the adults are the problem today. I hear  shooting drills analogized to the bomb drills, but did adults try to add to the duck and cover drills?  Did they play bomb sounds and shine green lights in the window?  Did teachers assign a student to hug people then scream that they had aids?  Because they are banging on doors, assigning kids to scream, coming into classrooms with fake guns.  Adults are either bored or lacking creative outlets.  Maybe we need to bring back bowling leagues so they have something else to do. 
 

Most of the things you listed weren’t on the radar of 6 years old in days past.  No 6 year old was worried about stagflation, but they are worried about the school shooter drill with sound effects and screaming classmates.  It’s a completely different experience.  These kids are feeling panic, regularly.  Their body doesn’t know it’s a drill, especially when the adults are adding Hollywood special effects.  

I think adults acting like adults probably helped keep the kids more stable in days past.   They felt like teachers, parents, police etc. had a dang clue. 

Edited March 15 by Heartstrings

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Most of the things you listed weren’t on the radar of 6 years old in days past.  No 6 year old was worried about stagflation, but they are worried about the school shooter drill with sound effects and screaming classmates.  It’s a completely different experience.  These kids are feeling panic, regularly.  Their body doesn’t know it’s a drill, especially when the adults are adding Hollywood special effects.  

I think adults acting like adults probably helped keep the kids more stable in days past.   They felt like teachers, parents, police etc. had a dang clue. 

I disagree.  When I was growing up, the family watched the 6pm news together every day.  We saw everything our parents saw.  We also saw the headlines of the newspapers.  And teachers did teach things in school too.  And we heard more in church (aside from the fact that if we didn't "have faith" (whatever that meant), we were going to Hell).  Even on Saturday morning TV, they had kid-level news reels about what was happening in the world.  Even kiddy entertainment was full of violence and danger.  Even the popular songs of the day were about war protests, the KSU shooting, etc.

So if anything, I think kids are hearing less and at a later age when it comes to bad stuff.  And maybe that is part of the problem.

Edited March 15 by SKL

[Carol in Cal.]

I distinctly remember believing that an atom bomb could land At Any Moment on our city, and we would all instantly be gone.

And I remember reading about how nuclear bombs are so much worse than atomic bombs that atomic bombs are obsolete.  So that was a relief.  

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

I disagree.  When I was growing up, the family watched the 6pm news together every day.  We saw everything our parents saw.  We also saw the headlines of the newspapers.  And teachers did teach things in school too.  And we heard more in church (aside from the fact that if we didn't "have faith" (whatever that meant), we were going to Hell).  Even on Saturday morning TV, they had kid-level news reels about what was happening in the world.  Even kiddy entertainment was full of violence and danger.

So if anything, I think kids are hearing less and at a later age when it comes to bad stuff.  And maybe that is part of the problem.

That may be.  I still think the visceral reaction of cold panic in the classroom probably has a different reaction on the body and the nervous system than watching the news with parents in the living room.   
 

I do agree with you on the kiddie violence in tv and games that we experienced.  I do think the small bits we got we’re actually more helpful  than keeping kids in happy singing bubbles today. Loony Tunes would cause a riot today, let alone Duck Hunt.  Being slowly introduced to a harsher reality like we were us surely better than ripping the band aid off.  Jumping from a Bluey world to school shooter drills is such a stark contrast.  

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I distinctly remember believing that an atom bomb could land At Any Moment on our city, and we would all instantly be gone.

And I remember reading about how nuclear bombs are so much worse than atomic bombs that atomic bombs are obsolete.  So that was a relief.  

My childhood in Germany involved lots of required reading about the war and the holocaust, some including graphic accounts of torture, class trip to a concentration camp in 8th grade, teachings how to build a fallout shelter in the apartment, school-mandated pre-military retreats and camps, being graded on donning gas mask and protective suit in under 2 minutes ... 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

 

I think adults acting like adults probably helped keep the kids more stable in days past.   They felt like teachers, parents, police etc. had a dang clue. 

This could very well be a huge part of the issue. I think most of us had faith that the vast majority of adults were looking out for kids, that the police officer is trustworthy, that even hard nosed, unfriendly teachers ultimately care about your safety, that the nation's leadership might bungle some things, yet would for the most part, be competent and care about the citizenry. I am pretty sure a large percentage of teens and young adults today do not believe this at all.

I wish we had a major, prime time, non cable media conglomerate tackle positivity for one hour three or four nights a week in which all they do is highlight stories of the good things happening, the groups and countries tackling climate change, the folks fighting for the Flint water system, the police officers that DO protect and serve, and very valiantly, the people volunteering to help migrants, and underprivileged kids, and the homeless, the communities that are tackling these issues and having success because to be sure, there are a lot that are doing it. If someone would do a reverse John Oliver on primetime, advertised heavily to the youth of our nation, maybe a step could be made in the right direction.

I think if we could convince kids to stay off social media, that would be great. Maybe some newspaper group would tackle running front page, positive messaging stories along side all the horror stories, kids could recover some positivity. 

I also think, and I know this sounds really simplistic, too much play time outdoors has been robbed from children in their young years. They need to play a lot more, time spent without worry, without plug and drill, without listening to the grown ups talk. I think it would again help with that foundation of emotional well being prior to being expected to shoulder heavy burden.

But, I know. Still. Not really having any real solutions. I just don't have the knowledge/expertise to figure it out.

I am also feeling to strongly today. One of rocketry alumni, a college senior, just gave up on her team and pulled them out of their competition for a lot of the same issues Regentrude describes. It had reached a level of safety issue, and as team captain, she had to blow the whistle on them for lack of listening, following directions, working diligently, documenting processes, a whole array of immaturity issues, and all of it culminating in a rocket launch that could have gotten someone killed. She is shaken up, and the effect on her confidence as a leader is palpable. I do not like to see someone who is soon to graduate with a double major in mechanical engineering and nuclear physics enter the workforce feeling like an utter failure. She is amazing, and has so much to offer. So when I respond to these posts, just keep in mind that I am hurting today for  22 year old who did her level best to pull 9 other adults through this major project, and these folks could not or would not pull their acts together no matter what she did. Her sense of failure is acute, and while I held it together and was very mature and professional going into that meeting with her, I shed a few tears on her behalf when we were done, and now have to get it together so I can meet with my own, new team.

 

[SanDiegoMom]

Hopefully this article comes through -- it talks about two books, one of which is one of my favorites The Coddling of the American Mind   by Jon Jaidt and Greg Lukianoff. I think their thesis is relevant to what is going on with Gen Z and their lack of independence, autonomy, and drive. 

Here is an excerpt from the article:

"Where Egginton sees a threat to democracy in a polity insufficiently and unequally educated in the liberal tradition, Lukianoff and Haidt notice something unprecedented and a lot more frightening: a generation, including its most privileged and educated members — especially these members — that has been politically and socially “stunted” by a false and deepening belief in its own fragility. This is a generation engaged in a meritocratic “arms race” of epic proportions, that has racked up the most hours of homework (and screen time) in history but also the fewest ever of something so simple as unsupervised outdoor play. If that sounds trivial, it shouldn’t. “When adult-supervised activities crowd out free play, children are less likely to develop the art of association,” Lukianoff and Haidt write, along with other social skills central to the making of good citizens capable of healthy compromise. Worse, the consequences of a generation unable or disinclined to engage with ideas and interlocutors that make them uncomfortable are dire for society, and open the door — accessible from both the left and the right — to various forms of authoritarianism."

 

"The book, which expands on a widely circulated 2015 article in The Atlantic, identifies what the authors refer to as “the three Great Untruths” of the current moment: “what doesn’t kill you makes you weaker”; “always trust your feelings”; “life is a battle between good people and evil people.” It’s a moment profoundly reshaped in the sanitized image of the hyper-connected and -protected “iGen” generation (short for “internet generation”), which directly succeeds the millennials. Members of iGen, according to the psychologist Jean Twenge, who coined the term, are “obsessed with safety,” which they define to include expansive notions of “emotional safety.” They began arriving on college campuses in 2013. Rates of anxiety and depression soon skyrocketed, along with demands for trigger warnings, safe spaces and disinvitations to controversial speakers, as well as sometimes violent confrontations with such speakers when they did appear on campus."

 

[Carol in Cal.]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

My childhood in Germany involved lots of required reading about the war and the holocaust, some including graphic accounts of torture, class trip to a concentration camp in 8th grade, teachings how to build a fallout shelter in the apartment, school-mandated pre-military retreats and camps, being graded on donning gas mask and protective suit in under 2 minutes ... 

I remember the first time I visited Germany how striking it was to me that there was so much guilt about WWII among people who were not even alive when it happened.  I thought that that would probably morph into something pretty bad at some point, if people rebelled against that and started to glorify it, but thankfully it didn’t.

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

This could very well be a huge part of the issue. I think most of us had faith that the vast majority of adults were looking out for kids, that the police officer is trustworthy, that even hard nosed, unfriendly teachers ultimately care about your safety, that the nation's leadership might bungle some things, yet would for the most part, be competent and care about the citizenry. I am pretty sure a large percentage of teens and young adults today do not believe this at all.

I am not sure that this is the root of the issue.
I grew up in a country where you definitely could not trust the police, where you knew the leadership was evil, where you knew that some teachers would turn you in to the secret service if you said the wrong things, where you knew that any protest would be quelled by soviet tanks, where you did not feel a shred of hope that the totalitarian system would ever crumble (when it did, it  was a huge surprise to everybody; we had all expected to spend our entire lives without escape). It was an actually hopeless situation - yet it did not cause the issues we are discussing here. Plenty of other issues, but none of this learned helplessness and refusal to figure things out, (Actually, people were pretty good at figuring things out because you had to to navigate a very complicated life.)

Edited March 15 by regentrude

[Heartstrings]

7 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I distinctly remember believing that an atom bomb could land At Any Moment on our city, and we would all instantly be gone.

And I remember reading about how nuclear bombs are so much worse than atomic bombs that atomic bombs are obsolete.  So that was a relief.  

I think there is a difference between reading about it, even believing it will happen any minute and living through essentially a simulation that you don’t know is a simulation.   Think about if the principal had played bomb noises, flashed lights in the window, threw dust to simulate debris, told one of your classmates to panic and scream?  If you had “lived” that as reality for 15 minutes?

Edited March 15 by Heartstrings

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I do agree with you on the kiddie violence in tv and games that we experienced.  I do think the small bits we got we’re actually more helpful  than keeping kids in happy singing bubbles today. Loony Tunes would cause a riot today, let alone Duck Hunt.  Being slowly introduced to a harsher reality like we were us surely better than ripping the band aid off.  Jumping from a Bluey world to school shooter drills is such a stark contrast.  

And this is up to the parents to navigate.

I admit that I held some things back from my kids over the years.  But hopefully not too much.

[Carol in Cal.]

Just now, regentrude said:

I am not sure that this is the root of the issue.
I grew up in a country where you definitely could not trust the police, where you knew the leadership was evil, where you knew that some teachers would turn you in to the secret service if you said the wrong things, where you knew that any protest would be quelled by soviet tanks, where you did not feel a shred of hope that the totalitarian system would ever crumble (when it did, it  was a huge surprise to everybody; we had all expected to spend our entire lives without escape). It was an actually hopeless situation - yet it did not cause the issues we are discussing here.

Yes, I understand.  I was talking about West Germany though.

The other thing that was very notable about Germany at the time, to me, was this absolute confidence in a set of cultural norms.  I had never been around that before, and it gave some strength to the community and the people that I think they were largely unconscious of unless they lived overseas where it did not exist.  There is so much history there, too, and historical greatness—Roman walls, very old cathedrals, the castles.  And there were these basic, sensible assumptions that children and frail elderly needed care, and that society should be structured in such a way as to make that easier to provide.  Nobody seemed to question this, and I found it amazing.

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

And this is up to the parents to navigate.

I admit that I held some things back from my kids over the years.  But hopefully not too much.

I think I did a decent job with that one part, but I know I’ve suffered some judgment on the shows and games we allowed.  

[Carol in Cal.]

4 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think there is a difference between reading about it, even believing it will happen any minute and living through essentially a simulation that you don’t know is a simulation.   Think about if the principal had played bomb noises, flashed lights in the window, threw dust to simulate debris, told one of your classmates to panic and scream?  If you had “lived” that as reality for 15 minutes?

I agree, but then again, most than most kids I lived what I read.  I remember thinking about this a lot.  There was no hope.  It was inevitable.  Sci fi projected WW’s 3 through 17.  On the Beach described the aftermath of total nuclear holocaust as the radioactive cloud gradually approached the last remaining people.  My only consolation was really that at least my entire extended family would die at once, so we wouldn’t have to go through individual bereavements.

I don’t think my classmates thought this way but I certainly did.

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think there is a difference between reading about it, even believing it will happen any minute and living through essentially a simulation that you don’t know is a simulation.   Think about if they principal had played bomb noises, flashed lights in the window, threw dust to simulate debris, told one if your classmates to panic and scream?  If you had “lived” that as reality for 15 minutes?

Every time we had a drill, we were not told whether it was a drill or the real thing.  We had to assume it was the real thing.  And the bomb threats were actually threats called in by real bad guys (though we didn't have any actual bombs while I was in school).

Edited March 15 by SKL

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I agree, but then again, most than most kids I lived what I read.  I remember thinking about this a lot.  There was no hope.  It was inevitable.  Sci fi projected WW’s 3 through 17.  On the Beach described the aftermath of total nuclear holocaust as the radioactive cloud gradually approached the last remaining people.  My only consolation was really that at least my entire extended family would die at once, so we wouldn’t have to go through individual bereavements.

I don’t think my classmates thought this way but I certainly did.

I definitely felt like we could all die any time (isn't that a line in a song?).  Still do.

[SKL]

The shooter drills for wee kids are controversial for a reason.

When Sandy Hook happened, my kids were 5/6yo in 1st grade.  I didn't plan on telling them about it, because I didn't want them to be afraid of a shooter busting into their classroom.  But the school decided to tell all the kids, and they even painted a memorial on the wall of the cafeteria, and each child (from preschool to 8th grade) had to participate in this mural (hand prints of paint making a a tree), which afaik is still on that wall to remind the kids every day.  It felt wrong to me, and I've since read that physical memorials statistically make trauma effects last longer.

Teachers whom I respect do believe the ALICE drills are good, so maybe they are.  Maybe there isn't a better solution.  (Or maybe we just haven't found it yet.)  I do think it's unfortunate to have to tell very young kids that someone might come in and decide to hurt everyone.  But it's true that this isn't really such a new thing.  Unfortunate doesn't mean wrong.

[What felt right to me for my wee kids was to teach them about real things, but real things that were far away / long ago.  We used a lot of books and movies that touched on hard topics, and we'd discuss them in what I considered an age-appropriate way.  And obviously, when anything bad hit close to home, we'd discuss that.  The plan was to eventually bring them into whatever information exposure I was getting.  But at age 13, with the Covid shutdown, I gradually gave them full access to whatever they wanted on the internet (excluding "adult" content).  We'd talk about world events, but maybe not as much as might be ideal.]