What is the purpose of math education?

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Frances said:

I could see math through Algebra II plus Statistics as appropriate minimum college prep high school requirements. 

I could agree with that if we changed some of what is considered Algebra 2. 

[SKL]

Just now, Frances said:

I could see math through Algebra II plus Statistics as appropriate minimum college prep high school requirements. 

Just know that this means some kids who would have been valuable in needed, client-facing human service jobs will be prevented from that.

[Frances]

12 minutes ago, SKL said:

I disagree.  I took stats in grad school for my MBA.  The only thing that touched on algebra II was standard deviations.  While it was a nice flex to understand that in some depth, it was not actually necessary for a reasonable understanding of social study data.  (And many of my classmates had never taken algebra or had no memory of it.)

You had MBA classmates who had never taken Algebra!?! I’m sorry, but I find that impossible to believe unless your grad program took all comers and you were basically just purchasing the degree. That they had forgotten most of their Algebra, yes that is believable. But likely the problem solving skills they developed while taking Algebra and other advanced math classes were still with them to some degree.

[Arcadia]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Computer science is his major so it’s a lot of math, that’s why it would be pointless to keep going if all of the math from this point is just Math Lab.  He’s good at the math, he just needs a human teacher not 100% Pearson math lab.   I don’t think anyone would argue that Math Lab is a quality way to educate.  

At the community college my kids took classes at, majority of the computer science and engineering majors had AP Calculus AB or BC credit. So classes started being less calculator and MathLab dependent for the class after AP Calculus BC. Their teacher for that class had tests and exams where calculators are not allowed. My kids rarely use calculators for math classes after AP Calc BC.

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

Online math sucks!  My boys struggle with inputting the answer more than they struggle with the content.  My older kids ended up taking notes on how to input different types of answers.  Some used Pearson MyMath Lab.  Others are using Aleks from ASU-UL.  I've got one in a stats class this semester and she reports that it's a different software and she's still learning to input the correct answe correctly!  We've done online and in person, but all of them have required all the work to be submitted in the software.   One instructor did go back and give partial points on tests if you solved it correctly on paper- that's at a small CC.  

It’s just lazy.  We tell the kids not to use AI then instructors are using software to do the majority of their work for them.  Hire more TAs to grade or something.   Just go back to doing the work on paper!  It was good enough for Einstein to use a pencil, it’s good enough for us today.   
I wonder if the countries we’re outsourcing our STEM jobs to are requiring their students to use online programs or are they using pen and paper?

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

You had MBA classmates who had never taken Algebra!?! I’m sorry, but I find that impossible to believe unless your grad program took all comers and you were basically just purchasing the degree. That they had forgotten most of their Algebra, yes that is believable. But likely the problem solving skills they developed while taking Algebra and other advanced math classes were still with them to some degree.

Yes, many of the international students did a lot of arithmetic but very little beyond that.  Like it or not.  And this was at a selective school.

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

At the community college my kids took classes at, majority of the computer science and engineering majors had AP Calculus AB or BC credit. So classes started being less calculator and MathLab dependent for the class after AP Calculus BC. Their teacher for that class had tests and exams where calculators are not allowed. My kids rarely use calculators for math classes after AP Calc BC.

So unless you went to a school that offers the equivalent of Calc 2 or 3 in high school you are out of luck for a STEM major.   Got it.  

[Arcadia]

4 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

So unless you went to a school that offers the equivalent of Calc 2 or 3 in high school you are out of luck for a STEM major.   Got it.  

I meant that it would hopefully get better as your son continue on his math classes progression. I am sorry you misunderstood 😞 couldn’t reply earlier as the forums was down for me.

[lewelma]

The core problem I see is that universities are gatekeepers to a lot of careers, even careers that have no math in them. It seems to me that the goal of an education is to allow people to work to their highest potential. Requiring jumping through an algebra 2 hoop, to be able to go to university for the humanities is just that, a hoop to jump.

I agree with the article that there are other types of 'math' that can be taught. You can keep kids in math without it being the calculus stream. Here in NZ, we have a very strong mostly qualitative statistics stream for 11th and 12th grade that requires a deep understanding of statistical principles (not calculations) to analyse data and interpret results. But also teaches kids how to ask proper questions, find hidden assumptions, and assess experimental design. It has 2 external exams that focus on probability and distributions in context of real life problems (they require 8th grade algebra to get an A).  When I hear interviews on the national radio show here, I can tell that the interviewers have taken these 2 classes, and I've told my students that they will be more capable of understanding the issues facing society with the knowledge they are learning. Can't say the same thing about algebra 2.

This year's statistics exams: 

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/nqfdocs/ncea-resource/exams/2023/91585-exm-2023.pdf

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/nqfdocs/ncea-resource/exams/2023/91586-exm-2023.pdf

[ScoutTN]

On 2/6/2024 at 2:17 PM, Frances said:

I would assume it was algebra based statistics you took, not calculus based statistics from the math department. One still needs two years of high school algebra for algebra based statistics. I taught it for several years and students who didn’t have solid algebra skills struggled.

And a lot of the kids who struggle with algebra do so because their foundational math is weak. They never mastered arithmetic, especially prealgebra. Improving elementary school math will not eliminate all the math strugglers, but it is a good place to start.

[lewelma]

You do not need 2 years of algebra to do well on the above 2 exams that I posted. They are tough (go look at them, and only 12% of students earn an A on either exam), and require a lot of mathematical/statistical understanding, but the algebra is limited to rearranging very basic equations.  And, in fact, I have gotten a kid with dyscalculia through these exams who could not do ANY algebra AT ALL. She could not even subtract 8 minus 6 (and the one time I asked her to do it, it took her 2 minutes with a tally chart to get 3). I rearranged the equation for her in the 3 ways she would need and she memorized when to use each rearrangement.  There is NO WAY a girl like her could get through the US high school math system, but by keeping her in math all the way through 12th grade, she conceived of herself as 'mathy' and developed a LOT of mathematical/statistical skills.

Edited February 7 by lewelma

[Faith-manor]

The number one problem with high school mathematics has nothing to do with the difficulty of high school mathematics and whether or not requirements are too difficult. It has everything to with the colossal incompetence in teaching mathematics at the elementary level, a fundamental lack of understanding of foundational principles. Most neurotypical kids would not struggle with Algebra 1 and 2 nor geometry IF the foundation has been decent, and they have a work ethic. I have spent too much time with elementary teachers who don't know what 10% of $30 is to have any faith that the issue is "are graduation requirements too hard."  Nope. They aren't though I would argue that I would prefer the foundation to be so good that we could allow students to have a vocational diploma at 16/10th grade and then options for continuing education like Tech Center full time instead of half days. 

We are being left behind in the dust by most of the industrialized world living in the age of technology. the answer is not to lower the bar. We need to fix the base.

[Catwoman]

On 2/6/2024 at 2:56 PM, Heartstrings said:

Can I enroll my kid just for that class at your university?  I’d seriously pay very good money for a class with a teacher.  He gets the material he just gets stymied by the Pearson online crap.  It’s heartbreaking to experience this in 2 separate colleges in two different states.  I’d love to see the stats on this class, I’m not sure how anyone ever passes it.  

I'm so sorry your son isn't getting the proper instruction he needs. 😞 He's obviously a very intelligent young man, and this must be so discouraging and frustrating for him (and for you!)

Can he take an in-person class so he can bypass the online stuff, or if online is his only option, could he maybe hire a private tutor to help him navigate the online stuff?

[lewelma]

NZ has been falling down the rankings in math for a decade. The NZ government has just announced the requirement of 1 hour of math every day in primary school. Not sure if it will work, but I know that right now primary schools do more like 20 minutes 4 days a week, so I don't think it will hurt unless teaching is so incompetent that kids come to hate math. Hoping that is not the case! 

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/backing-our-kids-learn-basics

(also banning cell phones in primary and secondary during school hours)

[SKL]

45 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

The number one problem with high school mathematics has nothing to do with the difficulty of high school mathematics and whether or not requirements are too difficult. It has everything to with the colossal incompetence in teaching mathematics at the elementary level, a fundamental lack of understanding of foundational principles. Most neurotypical kids would not struggle with Algebra 1 and 2 nor geometry IF the foundation has been decent, and they have a work ethic. I have spent too much time with elementary teachers who don't know what 10% of $30 is to have any faith that the issue is "are graduation requirements too hard."  Nope. They aren't though I would argue that I would prefer the foundation to be so good that we could allow students to have a vocational diploma at 16/10th grade and then options for continuing education like Tech Center full time instead of half days. 

We are being left behind in the dust by most of the industrialized world living in the age of technology. the answer is not to lower the bar. We need to fix the base.

One of my kids would have been served by having 2 hours of math at least 5 days a week, year-round, through 12th grade.

I helped her a lot up until the shutdown when she was in 8th grade.  After that, all their math went online (still is online), no books, and parents / tutors don't have access to the online materials.  I did find an old hard copy of their Algebra II curriculum to enable my sister (her tutor) and me to help at home.  But it was no longer realistic to sit her down for an extra 1.5 hours per day to practice math.  And the maximum help she was offered at school was a few days a week of approaching the teacher after school.  The teacher did help her, but it certainly wasn't enough to make up for all of her challenges.

At some point, you can't force a teen to do hours of additional work that her classmates aren't doing.  Then too, the higher math issues impact science courses, meaning they need an extra hour per day of science study too.  And then there's reading, writing, foreign language, etc.  And we want them to be physically active and to engage in the arts, to have social time, and to at least pick up after themselves around the house.  Maybe have a job or a volunteer gig.  "Raise the bar" is easy to say, until you're asking a truly challenged teen to do it.  (My kid has an average IQ and a decent work ethic, so it must be even harder for some of her classmates.  I know at least one friend who is probably not going to graduate because of math.)

All that may be worth it if the skills to be gained are really going to be useful.  Algebra II (or higher) doesn't meet that criterion for many public school  students.  It shouldn't be a requirement for graduation.  And I don't think it should be a requirement for college entrance in fields that don't apply higher math.

Edited February 7 by SKL

[gardenmom5]

I was watching a program on the castle they're building in France using medieval tools and techniques.

Carpenters and stone masons had geometry - it was a closely guarded secret and they wouldn't share it with anyone else.

I want my kids to understand it, even if they never actually "use" it.
as a math teacher friend has repeated a number of times "Euclidean Geometry" was a logic course.  (it's also been her experience where the weaker teachers teach it, and the better teachers get calc.)

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

The number one problem with high school mathematics has nothing to do with the difficulty of high school mathematics and whether or not requirements are too difficult. It has everything to with the colossal incompetence in teaching mathematics at the elementary level, a fundamental lack of understanding of foundational principles. Most neurotypical kids would not struggle with Algebra 1 and 2 nor geometry IF the foundation has been decent, and they have a work ethic. I have spent too much time with elementary teachers who don't know what 10% of $30 is to have any faith that the issue is "are graduation requirements too hard."  Nope. They aren't though I would argue that I would prefer the foundation to be so good that we could allow students to have a vocational diploma at 16/10th grade and then options for continuing education like Tech Center full time instead of half days. 

We are being left behind in the dust by most of the industrialized world living in the age of technology. the answer is not to lower the bar. We need to fix the base.

Shout this louder for those in the back. By third grade, we can make fairly accurate assumptions as to who will do well in high school level math. The problem is the foundation, not the roof.

 

[SKL]

It is interesting about geometry - what I remember about that class was a lot of proofs.  I don't think my kids did proofs, or if they did, it wasn't a major part of their class.  So I don't know how much "logic" they got out of geometry.

[prairiewindmomma]

We sent my severely dyscalcic kid through statistics rather than algebra 2 for high school graduation, but this has knocked him out of some plumbing apprenticeship programs. Higher level math is needed in most of the trades.

[SKL]

And as for other things taking the teens' time - I'm pretty sure my kid having a job has given her much more number sense than her Algebra II class gave her.  Of course you all probably have smart kids who understood all that money, time, etc. stuff in 3rd grade, but some kids continue to need more practice on the basics well into their teen years.

[prairiewindmomma]

I think basic math education is foundational in knowing how the world works. I think everyone should have a good high school level biology, physics and chemistry class and math up through Algebra 2 is necessary to do those sciences well. I also think everyone should take statistics. This gets you to “basic educated citizen” status, and we have good evidence in society lately of some of what happens when we don’t have an adequately educated populace.

Beyond that, let people tailor as they will as needed for adult life. For my engineer son, high school math was a foundation for further math. For another of my kids, they may have found a resting place and will study other things instead.

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

All that may be worth it if the skills to be gained are really going to be useful.  Algebra II (or higher) doesn't meet that criterion for many public school  students.  It shouldn't be a requirement for graduation.  And I don't think it should be a requirement for college entrance in fields that don't apply higher math.

In NZ it is not.

To earn a high school qualification here, you must pass a basic exam covering numeracy, measurement, and statistics.

To get into university, you must pass a 10th grade class that covers the equivalent of 1 year each of algebra, geometry, and statistics.

However, even that requirement can be sidestepped if you enter university at 20, where there are NO requirements for entrance at all. 

There are other ways of helping kids make a contribution to society, which in the end is what highschool and university are all about. I think that a lot of people use diplomas in the USA as signalling and as a gate keeper.  This is not what education should be about. 

Edited February 7 by lewelma

[Corraleno]

On 2/6/2024 at 12:29 PM, SKL said:

I disagree.  I took stats in grad school for my MBA.  The only thing that touched on algebra II was standard deviations.  While it was a nice flex to understand that in some depth, it was not actually necessary for a reasonable understanding of social study data.  (And many of my classmates had never taken algebra or had no memory of it.)

Same. I took Alg II as a sophomore in HS, and paid very little attention to it (almost never did the homework, cut class a lot, etc.), and then had no math classes for the next 5 years until I took a Stats for Social Science class as a college senior. I remembered virtually nothing of Algebra II (if I'd ever learned it to begin with), but still aced the stats class. Then two years later I took another stats class in grad school and aced that too.

My DD really struggles with math, but as homeschoolers we had the luxury of focusing primarily on practical math skills. I honestly don't know if she would have been able to graduate from PS here because I doubt she would have made it through Algebra II, no matter how much tutoring she had. Happily, she is doing extremely well (4.0 GPA) in a program at the CC that she really enjoys and will lead to a good career.

 

Edited February 8 by Corraleno

[Clarita]

I'll go back to read all the responses.

As someone who is good at math and completed through 2 years equivalent of Calculus in college. I used Calculus in my adult life past college. It's super useful to me. I would agree Calculus isn't necessary for most people. However I disagree that our goals for math should only go up to algebra for high school and definitely not for college graduation. I strongly believe that instead of focusing on Calculus for all college bound students, we should focus on statistics for all college bound students and that college graduates should have a good grasp of how statistics works.

I think the general public is suffering from a lack of understanding of statistics and how math/statistics can be used to manipulate perception of data, and also how the general economy works (not just on a personal level, but how our financial systems work).  I'm in the US and thus am operating under the assumption the people have some say (even small) on the direction of the country and at least some portion of policies. 

[lewelma]

5 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I'll go back to read all the responses.

As someone who is good at math and completed through 2 years equivalent of Calculus in college. I used Calculus in my adult life past college. It's super useful to me. I would agree Calculus isn't necessary for most people. However I disagree that our goals for math should only go up to algebra for high school and definitely not for college graduation. I strongly believe that instead of focusing on Calculus for all college bound students, we should focus on statistics for all college bound students and that college graduates should have a good grasp of how statistics works.

I think the general public is suffering from a lack of understanding of statistics and how math/statistics can be used to manipulate perception of data, and also how the general economy works (not just on a personal level, but how our financial systems work).  I'm in the US and thus am operating under the assumption the people have some say (even small) on the direction of the country and at least some portion of policies. 

I might support a high school graduation requirement for statistics, as long as it is qualitative statistics. 

[EKS]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

I might support a high school graduation requirement for statistics, as long as it is qualitative statistics. 

I'd like to see a requirement for students to show mastery of arithmetic and very basic algebra and geometry (what you might find in a prealgebra course) as well as a financial literacy course and a qualitative statistics course.   I honestly think that this would serve a whole lot of people very well.  We would need to completely reform elementary math to make this happen.  One thing this would require is for educationists to admit that not everything needs to be fun, that math needs lots of practice, and that practice should happen in school. 

There should also be the option of going the traditional college prep route.

[TechWife]

On 2/6/2024 at 1:04 PM, Alte Veste Academy said:

I agree. I agree with the suggestion of logic instruction…

Logic is best taught in context, IMO. All subject matter requires engaging logic in one form or another. Writing papers is a fantastic way to hone logic skills. Solving complex problems of various types is another way. Understanding civics is another way, as is art, history, music,  phys ed, and so on. Synthesizing information into a cohesive story, argument, lab report, math problems all requires logic - it can’t be “taught” in a vacuum, it has to be imparted experientially, IMO. 

On 2/6/2024 at 2:10 PM, BronzeTurtle said:

This thread is so disheartening.

Math is about problem solving, reasoning, pattern recognition, and thinking. It's a language of how the universe is ordered. Learning mathematics is not just about if you will use the specific areas taught later in life. Most of education isn't like that. … 

We should be teaching kids how to sit and wrestle with a hard math problem and that it might take a long time to see how it works. We should be teaching kids that it might take multiple tries of different techniques to finally come to a solution. We should be teaching them that plugging numbers into formulas isn't always a workable solution, they may have to explore other avenues. Mathematics, like so much of education, is about a way of thinking and recognizing and manipulating abstractions until you can see how they work. It is so important for development to learn to do these things that I'd even say it's worth doing without a certain aptitude or career in mind.

…

 

On 2/6/2024 at 2:18 PM, QueenCat said:

Agree 100%. We need to RAISE standards for all students, not lower them. We already outsource too much due to our LOW standards in math.

 

On 2/6/2024 at 2:50 PM, EKS said:

And raising standards should start with ensuring that all (or almost all) kids actually master arithmetic to a solid 8th grade level.  

 

Using these posts as a jumping off point, I think one of the issues we are getting into is the fact that newer teachers today were taught using poor methodologies. Similar to how teachers today are having to learn phonics to teach reading as phonics is slowly returning to reading instruction, math teachers may be facing the same. I’m not sure the teachers themselves are able to wrestle with complex problems to the extent that they can teach someone else that thinking/problem solving process. In elementary and middle schools, most teachers are not subject matter experts. In high school, many of them are, but don’t regularly have opportunities to continue to learn more and discuss mathematics with peers. And again, we’re getting into the problem that the teachers aren’t necessarily equipped to have those discussions. I’m not against raising standards, but you have to have qualified experts available to do the instruction. Math teachers are hard to come by - well, the whole profession is having retention problems. The path to allow someone who has real world experience in a field to teach upon retirement from private industry is cumbersome. It’s as if their own education and job experience is considered nearly useless in the classroom. I know people with phenomenal experience, including masters degrees, teaching high level internal courses, writing numerous journal articles and even co-authoring textbooks in the field. The state I’m in says they aren’t qualified to teach because they haven’t studied “education.”

On 2/6/2024 at 3:03 PM, Library Momma said:

That does already exist in places in the US.  Kids who aren't as academically inclined here can go to vocational schools for high school.  Those that stay in public school can choose a "business" math track in high school that is less rigorous and possibly more useful.

Sadly, it isn’t available everywhere. Here there is a magnet school that has this format, but students apply for the lottery. There aren’t nearly enough seats to accommodate everyone who wants to do this here. 

Edited February 8 by TechWife

[Clarita]

On 2/6/2024 at 11:10 AM, BronzeTurtle said:

This thread is so disheartening.

Math is about problem solving, reasoning, pattern recognition, and thinking. It's a language of how the universe is ordered. Learning mathematics is not just about if you will use the specific areas taught later in life. Most of education isn't like that. This is like saying we need to read great literature so that we can define all the vocabulary in the books. What a short-sighted goal!

We should be teaching kids how to sit and wrestle with a hard math problem and that it might take a long time to see how it works. We should be teaching kids that it might take multiple tries of different techniques to finally come to a solution. We should be teaching them that plugging numbers into formulas isn't always a workable solution, they may have to explore other avenues. Mathematics, like so much of education, is about a way of thinking and recognizing and manipulating abstractions until you can see how they work. It is so important for development to learn to do these things that I'd even say it's worth doing without a certain aptitude or career in mind.

Budgeting, taxes, and finances are arithmetic. Surely arithmetic should be mastered but if one can read and do arithmetic they don't need whole classes on how to not spend more money than they make and how to fill out a government form (that it admittedly more complicated than it needs to be). You could cover that stuff in a week or less.

I guess this has to do with what the society think the purpose of math education is or even education in general. 

I don't think everyone is on the same page for that, when we are talking about compulsory education vs. how I may personally educate my own child and view my own education.  

[lewelma]

19 minutes ago, EKS said:

I'd like to see a requirement for students to show mastery of arithmetic and very basic algebra and geometry (what you might find in a prealgebra course) as well as a financial literacy course and a qualitative statistics course.   I honestly think that this would serve a whole lot of people very well.  We would need to completely reform elementary math to make this happen.  One thing this would require is for educationists to admit that not everything needs to be fun, that math needs lots of practice, and that practice should happen in school. 

There should also be the option of going the traditional college prep route.

We also need to get rid of computer based programs in primary school. They are becoming common here, and the encourage teachers to let the program teach, and discourage students from learning to show proper workings, as all that is required is the answer to go in the computer.  Both of these are bad bad bad. 

[lewelma]

14 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I guess this has to do with what the society think the purpose of math education is or even education in general. 

I don't think everyone is on the same page for that, when we are talking about compulsory education vs. how I may personally educate my own child and view my own education.  

Agreed.

[Terabith]

When I was in a course titled "Teaching Math in Grades K-8," the fact that I had my multiplication facts memorized and could add two digit numbers in my head was akin to sorcery.  NONE of the other prospective teachers in the class had any sort of math foundation or knowledge or understanding, and they'd all gotten through at least Algebra 2 in high school, because that's the bar for graduating and going to college.  

I agree that Algebra 2 is a problematic high school graduation requirement.  I also agree that elementary school math education is so incredibly bad that it's criminal.  But my own deeply dyscalculic kid with massive disability in working memory, who is 2e and had an excellent math education in K-6 is graduating from college simply because my husband is an excellent math tutor and can get her through the classes, but she hasn't really understood any math since about fifth grade.  She doesn't really understand fractions, despite really good education.  She has a bunch of things she's good at, but also a ton of things she doesn't remotely understand, and she would be so much better served by qualitative statistics than being forced through precalculus.  

Also, almost every adult I know would be well served by qualitative statistics understanding.  I find understanding statistics so helpful when I'm trying to understand various studies that have been published.  It's way more useful than the calculus I have never used in my adult life.  And I'm pretty good at math.  

Geometry, yes, useful.  Trig, super useful.  Algebra 1, useful.  Algebra 2?  Honestly, not super useful.  In my life or career.

[Heartstrings]

23 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I meant that it would hopefully get better as your son continue on his math classes progression. I am sorry you misunderstood 😞 couldn’t reply earlier as the forums was down for me.

It crashed for me too, right after I hit submit.  I’m sure I misunderstood because I was at my wits end with that class and my kid that day. I apologize for that.  
 

College kids are emotionally exhausting!  

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

It is interesting about geometry - what I remember about that class was a lot of proofs.  I don't think my kids did proofs, or if they did, it wasn't a major part of their class.  So I don't know how much "logic" they got out of geometry.

I took geometry in 2 different states due to moving in high school.  I never even heard of a proof before discrete math in college.   

[EKS]

33 minutes ago, lewelma said:

We also need to get rid of computer based programs in primary school. They are becoming common here, and the encourage teachers to let the program teach, and discourage students from learning to show proper workings, as all that is required is the answer to go in the computer.  Both of these are bad bad bad. 

Absolutely!

[lewelma]

11 minutes ago, Terabith said:

 Trig, super useful.  Algebra 1, useful.  Algebra 2?  Honestly, not super useful.  In my life or career.

My PhD is in mathematical modelling of ecological systems. I did the equivalent of covid modelling for mice.  I never used Algebra 2, precal, or calculus in my 4 years of research. Just saying. 

[bookbard]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

In NZ it is not.

To earn a high school qualification here, you must pass a basic exam covering numeracy, measurement, and statistics.

To get into university, you must pass a 10th grade class that covers the equivalent of 1 year each of algebra, geometry, and statistics.

However, even that requirement can be sidestepped if you enter university at 20, where there are NO requirements for entrance at all. 

There are other ways of helping kids make a contribution to society, which in the end is what highschool and university are all about. I think that a lot of people use diplomas in the USA as signalling and as a gate keeper.  This is not what education should be about. 

 

30 minutes ago, lewelma said:

We also need to get rid of computer based programs in primary school. They are becoming common here, and the encourage teachers to let the program teach, and discourage students from learning to show proper workings, as all that is required is the answer to go in the computer.  Both of these are bad bad bad. 

Liking these posts.

In Australia (or maybe just our state? I should check) you have to pass an exam in Year 9 which covers basic maths and english. If you don't pass in year 9, you can take it in year 10 and so on. You have to pass this test in order to get your high school certificate. Here is an example:

NAPLAN 2012-2016 test papers (acara.edu.au) It is not difficult. 

In most states you can drop maths in year 11-12 (I did!) but you can also do a basic course. I very much like the NZ statistics course though - how practical! In Australia, they start banging away at statistics and probability from Kindergarten which I think is overkill. A proper stats course would be so useful. 

[regentrude]

31 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I took geometry in 2 different states due to moving in high school.  I never even heard of a proof before discrete math in college.   

That is a sad commentary on what passes for math education in the US.
We did geometry proofs in 6th grade (East Germany).
Proofs are a wonderful way to learn to construct a chain of logical arguments. 

[regentrude]

33 minutes ago, lewelma said:

My PhD is in mathematical modelling of ecological systems. I did the equivalent of covid modelling for mice.  I never used Algebra 2, precal, or calculus in my 4 years of research. Just saying. 

Exponential functions and logarithms are covered in algebra 2.
I find it hard to believe that exponential growth never occurred in the modeling of ecological systems or diseases.

(As an aside: none of your models involved any differential equations? For any growth modeling in physical systems, that is par for the course.)

Edited February 8 by regentrude

[prairiewindmomma]

Like Terabith, I also took Math for Elementary School Teachers during undergrad. I needed credit hours and that was what was offered for that time slot. 80% of the class could not do what I am teaching my 5th grader now: multiplying and dividing fractions, converting between fractions and decimals, and simplifying fractions. 
 

Do you remember the show “Are You Smarter than a 5th grader?”. Arguably, for a majority of our citizens, the answer may be no.

[lewelma]

6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Exponential functions and logarithms are covered in algebra 2.
I find it hard to believe that exponential growth never occurred in the modeling of ecological systems or diseases.

(As an aside: none of your models involved any differential equations? For any growth modeling in physical systems, that is par for the course.)

Ah, well, I guess I forget what is in an algebra 2 course, given I work within a different system.  lol. Yes, to exponential growth. No to differential equations.  I did multivariate time series analysis and lots of nonparametric stats which is based in combinatorics. 

There is just lots of types of maths. The US has picked one kind to put full focus on which helps some students (economists, scientists, actuaries) and hurt other students (humanities kids, social scientists, artists).  I think the key point here for me is not that the algebra 2/precal/calculus stream shouldn't be offered in high school, it just shouldn't be compulsory to get into university, given that university is a gate keeper to higher socio-economic position in life. 

[EKS]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Do you remember the show “Are You Smarter than a 5th grader?”. Arguably, for a majority of our citizens, the answer may be no.

The average adult in this country actually does top out at around fifth grade math and reading competency.  And fifth grade may be overstating it a bit when it comes to math.

[lewelma]

4 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

: multiplying and dividing fractions, converting between fractions and decimals, and simplifying fractions. 

I remediate this work for Every Single Student except the kid who did Math-U-See epsilon (which is an entire year of fractions). This ALWAYS includes 10th graders where I have to go back to drawing pizzas so we are still working on conceptualization, and typically I have to keep them practicing in 11th and 12th grade in for kids in the calculus stream because it was just never understood or mastered in primary school. 

Edited February 8 by lewelma

[prairiewindmomma]

Yup. We’re doing Epsilon alongside Singapore Primary Math to make sure she has this solidly nailed before prealgebra. She isnt the mathiest of kids naturally, but she can think about problems and ways to tackle them. 
 

I really think 5th grade is where the wheels come off for a lot of students. 

[Heartstrings]

I plan on doing epsilon this summer now that I’ve realized my current teen is struggling with fractions still.  

[SKL]

Ah, math for elementary teachers.  When I started college, my career goal was to be an elementary / special ed teacher, and that course was my math requirement.  I bought the textbook and looked through it, aghast.  😛  I went to my counselor and asked permission to take a different series.  The required course for K-8 teachers (who teach math as well as everything else) topped out around the 6th grade level.  I just couldn't.  😛

So yeah, our elementary school teachers aren't necessarily math wizzes.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean they can't teach the basics solidly.

When I was a college student, I was hired to tutor a 5th grader who was failing math.  I broke everything down and forced her to consider "why" we do each step.  We started out spending the entire hour doing 10 minutes' worth of homework.  She and her parents thought I was nuts, but after a while, she became an A student.  But that was one-on-one, with me meeting that child where she was on each concept.  I don't know how successful I'd be trying to do that with a whole room full of kids.

With my own kid at that age, we did the work every night, but she always had so much homework.  It was usually study vs. sleep.  Even freaking art class could have an hour of homework.  We got through the homework and extra practice, and also did summer practice & math camps.  But she was never "solid" in the sense that she could use her own reasoning to attack a new problem at a "proficient" level.  And I really wish we had more time to work on that.

Edited February 8 by SKL

[Catwoman]

57 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That is a sad commentary on what passes for math education in the US.
We did geometry proofs in 6th grade (East Germany).
Proofs are a wonderful way to learn to construct a chain of logical arguments. 

I think it must depend on the school, because we definitely did Geometry proofs at my NYC area school, although it was in the 8th grade. 

[EKS]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I think it must depend on the school, because we definitely did Geometry proofs at my NYC area school, although it was in the 8th grade. 

Here the regular geometry sections don't (didn't? I've actually been out of the loop for about five years) do a whole lot of proofs.  It's more algebra with shapes.  The honors sections are more proof intensive.  They used to use Jacobs Geometry and perhaps they still do.

[catz]

I think a big part of the problem is kids aren't getting good fundamentals and conceptual understanding every step of the way.  People that don't like math and struggle with math rarely teach the bigger concepts well and treat it as a chore.    I have a math degree,  I have lots of feelings on this topic.  

Even math accelerated kids not infrequently get to college and trip when they're expected to apply concepts broadly and deeply.  We're way too focused on pushing ahead and passing narrow tests with narrow procedures and not focused enough on treating problem solving like a puzzle that is meant to be struggled with a bit.  This whole grade inflation trend where many kids are getting 100% on every test full of super basic problem sets is not really prepping kids for higher ed or how to really be challenged.

Math is developmental.  So I don't think every kid is ready for the same math concepts at the exact same age or phase.  I could be convinced kids maybe need less math if it were actually high quality math with deep problem solving along the way.   I think the way we introduce math early and through elementary definitely feeds the problem we have with higher level math.

And as an aside, I use math every day and I'm not working right now.  I think those logic skills carry through to many, many areas of life.  Learning to approach hard challenges with grit and patience is a life skill.  

I had really poor elementary school math instruction.  My math life changed when I had real math loving and trained teachers.  And I did do proofs in geometry in a midwestern public high school.

Edited February 8 by catz

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, catz said:

 This whole grade inflation trend where many kids are getting 100% on every test full of super basic problem sets is not really prepping kids for higher ed or how to really be challenged.

 

This is what I saw with my nephew that I homeschooled by zoom during covid. He thought he was good at math because he always got top grades. But then we found out that this is only because they were teaching algebra at the most basic level, doing a 2 week unit and taking the test right after it (with no cumulative tests), and all word problems were extra credit.  He was NOT at grade level as far as I was concerned. But he thought he was far ahead because he was earning 100% on all tests (but then he would forget everything he had learned). This kid wants to be an engineer, so I was working really hard to convince him that YES you should do word problems even though they are extra credit and you already have 100%. What a disaster.

[4kidlets4me]

I thought all states had an alternate track. Here you need Alg 1 and geometry and then you can take either Alg 2 or financial math and still graduate and go to college. 2 of my 4 kids did the financial math class and neither of them had any trouble in college. They aren't doing math heavy degrees but 1 of them had to take stats and even without Alg 2 she is doing just fine. 

The real problem though isn't Alg 2 it's the abysmal way we teach grade school math! We need to revamp the entire grade school curriculum before we talk about getting rid of higher math classes. 

That said I think all states need to adopt an alternate track so lives don't get derailed b/c of 1 class.