I am fuming.

[katilac]

18 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

And, hey, that duggar guy had a secret online life that turned out super bad for him and whomever he had the misfortune of preying upon. so perhaps it would be a wise course of action to discourage that sort of thing in teen girls. 

Getting a secret phone in your teens because your parents won't allow you to have one isn't ideal, but it has nothing to do with being a pedophile. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Brittany1116 said:

It's absolutely wild to me that people want to call the mom controlling, inappropriate, inflammatory, problematic, a Duggar etc because she found a secret phone amidst the revelation that her kid was/is in a secret relationship of some sort and figured the two things may be related. I think her text about the phone was probably fretted over and rewritten to make it as benign as possible. The most likely explanation is often the explanation. 

I think calling it a “secret relationship” is going a bit far. When you were in high school and liked a boy but weren’t going on dates, only talking to them at shared events, did your parents always know? It just seems like a normal teenage thing. But it appears the girl’s family might have such strict rules around relationships that the girl is already hiding things from her parents by using a friend’s phone and/or a burner phone. I wouldn’t want to be sucked into that drama nor have her implying my son was responsible for it. If she wants to know how her daughter got the phone, she needs to ask her, not look for the giver first. And I would definitely be advising my son about getting involved with a girl from such a family.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Frances

[Frances]

1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said:

when I was growing up there was no real possibility for the emotional entanglement that can happen online...where you think you're so in love with a person because you communicate with them often and sweetly through dm's.

sure, kids had secret flings, but it was in person meetups and phone calls on a family line.

entanglements could be messy, for SURE even without the internet. It wasn't like some 'good ole days'. BUT

a secret online life in a teen girl or boy can come with LOADS of things that are inappropriate, can get people in legal trouble as teens, can be easily sent on to third parties for bullying/shaming, pictures and video sharing, or talking to catfishing people, and so much more. And as a bonus it lasts forever.

It's not a dumb duggar thing to worry about because you aren't raising your daughter to be home in her 30s. :::eyeroll::

But it seems that the girl’s parents are setting up their daughter to be secretive and take the relationship online by being over the top about their in person interactions. No dating until a certain age is fine, but what the heck does not wanting anything going on between them even mean?

[BronzeTurtle]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

Getting a secret phone in your teens because your parents won't allow you to have one isn't ideal, but it has nothing to do with being a pedophile. 

no but teens who have secret phones are exceptionally vulnerable to being catfished by one. someone being honest with their parents about their online activities isn't going to get suckered into talking to someone like josh. and josh had a secret internet life from EVERYONE he knew and it didn't really make him into a stellar guy on that end either.

a secret internet life, hidden from parents, as a 15yo is asking for the kind of trouble that someone at that age doesn't know how to extract themselves from. what does a girl do who ends up talking to the adult man online and can't tell her parents because they don't even know she's got a phone? what does the guy do who downloads something really wrong but his parents don't even know he has an account to download that sort of thing.

"not ideal" understates the problem, both on the end of someone who might be taken advantage of and by someone who might grow up to take advantage of others.

openness, honesty, transparency, even if enforced by parental boundaries are the only way to avoid that at that age. Also allowing kids more freedom rather than less would be on my personal parenting list at that age but i can understand why another parent would feel the need to lock down social media or tech for a time. it doesn't seem controlling or egregious.

above the point was made that these kids are getting ready to go into the world with no restrictions. the answer isn't, then, to let them do what they want right now with no questions asked or get offended because another parent dared to ask.  right now they have people older and wiser who would like to guide them along the line of not having secret internet accounts, phones, etc., in order to facilitate a romantic relationship which is likely way beyond either of their maturity levels.

[BronzeTurtle]

13 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think calling it a “secret relationship” is going a bit far. When you were in high school and liked a boy but weren’t going on dates, only talking to them at shared events, did your parents always know? It just seems like a normal teenage thing. But it appears the girl’s family might have such strict rules around relationships that the girl is already hiding things from her parents by using a friend’s phone and/or a burner phone. I wouldn’t want to be sucked into that drama nor have her implying my son was responsible for it. If she wants to know how her daughter got the phone, she needs to ask her, not look for the giver first. And I wood definitely be advising my son about getting involved with a girl from such a family.

what you describe sounds like a normal teenage thing. a secret phone and social media account where he is listed as a boyfriend does not seem like a normal teenage thing, or at least not a healthy thing for someone, anyone of any age to do.

not all parents who have dating boundaries for their kids are unreasonable. it doesn't mean that because the kid violates those boundaries that the parents are "too strict". it's not unreasonable to ask another parent about an activity or item especially when they are already linked on socials. maybe she did ask her daughter and her daughter got caught in a lie and the mom really wants to find out the truth. a question doesn't imply wrong doing and taking offense at another parent asking about possible involvement of your son and the immediate thought being "how dare you?! my son would never!" is silly. teens get up to all sorts of things that need reining in by parents.

and if it were my son I would want to know if he's giving out secret phones to girls in order to be in communication secretly with her because that's seriously creepy behavior.

the answer doesn't even have to be a big deal. 'nope, doesn't look familiar to me.'

Edited October 31, 2023 by BronzeTurtle

[SKL]

TBH I would be concerned if I found a secret burner phone in my kid's room.  Reason - I would wonder what else was being hidden from me.

The kids I know who have that going on are into dangerous things.

I used to think I could control what my kids were up to, but that was then.  I've caught them doing some disappointing things, and I assume there is more that I don't know about, even though I don't think I'm especially controlling.  I also know that if my kids have a desire to do something I don't approve of, they will find someone to help them do it - 100%.

The girl in this story has something going on.  Her mom isn't wrong to want to know why.  But she's wrong if she thinks it's all about outside influences.  She needs to figure out how to talk to her own kid.  A burner phone is one thing.  What's next?  Pointing fingers outside one's home isn't going to keep this girl safe.

[Frances]

15 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

no but teens who have secret phones are exceptionally vulnerable to being catfished by one. someone being honest with their parents about their online activities isn't going to get suckered into talking to someone like josh. and josh had a secret internet life from EVERYONE he knew and it didn't really make him into a stellar guy on that end either.

a secret internet life, hidden from parents, as a 15yo is asking for the kind of trouble that someone at that age doesn't know how to extract themselves from. what does a girl do who ends up talking to the adult man online and can't tell her parents because they don't even know she's got a phone? what does the guy do who downloads something really wrong but his parents don't even know he has an account to download that sort of thing.

"not ideal" understates the problem, both on the end of someone who might be taken advantage of and by someone who might grow up to take advantage of others.

openness, honesty, transparency, even if enforced by parental boundaries are the only way to avoid that at that age. Also allowing kids more freedom rather than less would be on my personal parenting list at that age but i can understand why another parent would feel the need to lock down social media or tech for a time. it doesn't seem controlling or egregious.

above the point was made that these kids are getting ready to go into the world with no restrictions. the answer isn't, then, to let them do what they want right now with no questions asked or get offended because another parent dared to ask.  right now they have people older and wiser who would like to guide them along the line of not having secret internet accounts, phones, etc., in order to facilitate a romantic relationship which is likely way beyond either of their maturity levels.

This is all fine, but they need to start with their daughter. If she won’t tell them where she got the phone, then they have some serious issues they need to deal with.

 

8 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

what you describe sounds like a normal teenage thing. a secret phone and social media account where he is listed as a boyfriend does not seem like a normal teenage thing, or at least not a healthy thing for someone, anyone of any age to do.

not all parents who have dating boundaries for their kids are unreasonable. it's not unreasonable to ask another parent about an activity or item especially when they are already linked on socials. maybe she did ask her daughter and her daughter got caught in a lie and the mom really wants to find out the truth. a question doesn't imply wrong doing and taking offense at another parent asking about possible involvement of your son and the immediate thought being "how dare you?! my son would never!" is silly. teens get up to all sorts of things that need reining in by parents.

and if it were my son I would want to know if he's giving out secret phones to girls in order to be in communication secretly with her because that's seriously creepy behavior.

the answer doesn't even have to be a big deal. 'nope, doesn't look familiar to me.'

Of course the daughter should not be sneaking around and having a secret phones and secret social media accounts. But I disagree that one of the first course of actions is questioning the parents of the boy she has a crush on. They need to be figuring out why she feels the need to sneak around and lie to them and it sounds like it’s because they have a very unrealistic expectation that their daughter shouldn’t have normal teenage crushes and relationships. They need to get their own house in order before they try to involve or blame others. If they find out the phone came from the boy, then sure, contact the boy’s parents at that point. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Frances

[BronzeTurtle]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

This is all fine, but they need to start with their daughter. If she won’t tell them where she got the phone, then they have some serious issues they need to deal with.

 

Of course the daughter should not be sneaking around and having a secret phones and secret social media accounts. But I disagree that one of the first course of actions is questioning the parents of the boy she has a crush on. They need to be figuring out why she feels the need to sneak around and lie to them and it sounds like it’s because they have a very unrealistic expectation that their daughter shouldn’t have normal teenage crushes and relationships. They need to get their own house in order before they try to involve or blame others. If they find out the phone came from the boy, then sure, contact the boy’s parents at that point. 

1) to your 1st paragraph: Yes and perhaps dealing with those serious issues is investigating her social media (as you suggested) and asking around about the phone.

3) how do you know their first course of action is asking abcd about the phone? what if it is at the end of a long trail of actions on their part?

2) to your last sentence: How on earth would they find out it came from him without asking? How is it not "getting their own house in order" to ask fellow parents about what they know? none of this exists in a vacuum with the girl alone because again...the boy is literally in her profile pic. if he has nothing to do with that questions should still be raised to his parents so they know he is being stalked by this girl. if he does have something to do with it then he can elect to talk to his own parents about it or not, but the mere question is not an accusation and doesn't mean anyone is overstepping to ask his mom....because his face is in the profile picture and she claims he is her boyfriend.

Edited October 31, 2023 by BronzeTurtle

[BronzeTurtle]

53 minutes ago, Frances said:

why she feels the need to sneak around and lie to them and it sounds like it’s because they have a very unrealistic expectation that their daughter shouldn’t have normal teenage crushes and relationships

this actually makes the conversation a lot clearer because you have already figured everything about the parents and what makes them tick. you also seem to know better than they do about what appropriate boundaries should be for their daughter's mental, social, and relational health when it comes to dating. this is great!

but even if you want to claim to be the cool-mom-not-a-regular mom your kids can sometimes do stupid stuff. so if your kids have never felt the need to do stupid stuff or lie or get dramatic about relationships or use tech inappropriately or sneak anything because you parented them just exactly right, then I am sincerely very happy for you and that is amazing. there's a lot of parents out there (probably this girl's included and abcd included as well) trying to do the best they can and scared poopless of the internet and the creeps on it and maybe have had their kids sneak something despite their efforts to be good moms and dads. sadly, we can only shame them over the internet for being too strict and having too many boundaries instead of telling them in person.

 

[Frances]

6 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

1) to your 1st paragraph: Yes and perhaps dealing with those serious issues is investigating her social media (as you suggested) and asking around about the phone.

2) to your last sentence: How on earth would they find out it came from him without asking? How is it not "getting their own house in order" to ask fellow parents about what they know? none of this exists in a vacuum with the girl alone because again...the boy is literally in her profile pic. if he has nothing to do with that questions should still be raised to his parents so they know he is being stalked by this girl. if he does have something to do with it then he can elect to talk to his own parents about it or not, but the mere question is not an accusation and doesn't mean anyone is overstepping to ask his mom....because his face is in the profile picture and she claims he is her boyfriend.

They ask her where she got the phone. He knows he is in the picture because his own mom discovered it and showed it to him. They don’t seem to be sharing any of the conversations they’ve had with their daughter or info they received from her or others, just questioning the boy’s parents. If they really feel like they need info from the boy or his parents, they should be sharing more info first, otherwise it just sounds like a fishing expedition and trying to divert blame, rather than figuring out why she is sneaking around and lying to them. Hint: forbidding normal teenage feelings and relationships.

[BronzeTurtle]

Just now, Frances said:

They ask her where she got the phone. 

how do you know they did not do that?

can you explain how asking someone in her life about the phone is blaming that person?

Edited October 31, 2023 by BronzeTurtle

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

But it seems that the girl’s parents are setting up their daughter to be secretive and take the relationship online by being over the top about their in person interactions. No dating until a certain age is fine, but what the heck does not wanting anything going on between them even mean?

Sounds like they wanted her to think boys have cooties until she's graduated college (do parents who are so controlling even allow their daughter's to go to college?).  psst - mom - she's figured out boys don't have cooties.

 

 

10 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

 : How on earth would they find out it came from him without asking?  

You are assuming it came from him.  The mom needs to ask her daughter where she got the phone.  If her daughter is refusing to answer, or lying, she needs to figure out how to fix their relationship so her daughter feels like she can talk to her own mother and trust her.  Obviously, the daughter doesn't feel that way now.

And just because his picture is on her social media doesn't mean it came from him.   If mom wants her off social media, that's up to her - but she needs to fix her relationship with her daughter. 

And aiming to control everything without developing a trusting and healthy relationship between mom/parent and daughter, is just going to make what her daughter does go to more extremes to hide what she's doing from her mother.   I still remember being flabbergasted by the young woman (early 20s) I met who still couldn't understand what was wrong with a teenager wearing something out of the house of which mom approved - then changing into something of which mom most definitely would NOT approve! (but would get more attention from boys)  She thought it was normal becasue she did it.

[gardenmom5]

@BronzeTurtle  I'm super curious how many teenagers you have, boys or girls?  and how many are all the way through their teenage years?

I've have three fully independent adults.  One adult who lives at home because we're in a HCOL area, he has a bachelor's, and works.  I've been all the way through the teen years.  I've been around other people's teenagers, I've been around adults who work with teenagers, . . .  I have adult kids who've volunteered with teenagers. . . 

 

[BronzeTurtle]

my original point was to say that since he's claimed by her as her boyfriend is for all parents and kids to just sit down and talk it out and establish boundaries for how they can hang out without dating one-on-one. that seems pretty normal for a situation like this where things have gone a bit sideways and perhaps all parties involved are not mature enough for a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship.

but I'm not ascribing motives or malice to any parents here that might be navigating a secret internet phone for the very first time and might be crushed about finding out and might be trying to figure out how to repair the relationship with their kid and view anyone communicating with her in secret as not exactly the healthiest person to encourage her to hang out with more.

[Frances]

2 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

this actually makes the conversation a lot clearer because you have already figured everything about the parents and what makes them tick. you also seem to know better than they do about what appropriate boundaries should be for their daughter's mental, social, and relational health when it comes to dating. this is great!

but even if you want to claim to be the cool-mom-not-a-regular mom your kids can sometimes do stupid stuff. so if your kids have never felt the need to do stupid stuff or lie or get dramatic about relationships or use tech inappropriately or sneak anything because you parented them just exactly right, then I am sincerely very happy for you and that is amazing. there's a lot of parents out there (probably this girl's included and abcd included as well) trying to do the best they can and scared poopless of the internet and the creeps on it and maybe have had their kids sneak something despite their efforts to be good moms and dads. sadly, we can only shame them over the internet for being too strict and having too many boundaries instead of telling them in person.

 

I think you are reading way more into my posts than is there.

 

8 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

how do you know they did not do that?

can you explain how asking someone in her life about the phone is blaming that person?

If they did do it, they should have shared her answer with the OP. Did they ask everyone in her life if they gave her a phone? By asking about the boy they are implying he is a suspect. Did they also question all of her friends, neighbors, teachers, coaches, etc.? 

[bolt.]

I think it would be very strange for the parents of two 15yos to sit down at a family-to-family conference to talk out what they will or won't allow their high school teenagers to do/think/feel with or about each other.

To me that's very nearly as strange as the four parents of two 20yos proposing to do the same sit-down.

It's weird. And infantilizing. And presumptuous. It stomps all sorts of perfectly normal boundaries that exist for teenagers and their parents.

It's much more normal for each set of parents to coach their own kid in keeping with their own values, and to to try to keep in-family communication open in the best ways they know how. Hopefully with due respect, kindness, and a high regard for healthy boundaries. And whenever 'your' teen crosses your boundaries you do your best... but it doesn't really involve the other family. Whether 'your' kid responds to your coaching or abides within your limits is strictly your own business.

In my opinion, trying to make this stuff into teamwork with another pair of parents is only inviting chaos and drama.

[BronzeTurtle]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

You are assuming it came from him.  The mom needs to ask her daughter where she got the phone.  If her daughter is refusing to answer, or lying, she needs to figure out how to fix their relationship so her daughter feels like she can talk to her own mother and trust her.  Obviously, the daughter doesn't feel that way now.

And just because his picture is on her social media doesn't mean it came from him.   If mom wants her off social media, that's up to her - but she needs to fix her relationship with her daughter. 

And aiming to control everything without developing a trusting and healthy relationship between mom/parent and daughter, is just going to make what her daughter does go to more extremes to hide what she's doing from her mother.   I still remember being flabbergasted by the young woman (early 20s) I met who still couldn't understand what was wrong with a teenager wearing something out of the house of which mom approved - then changing into something of which mom most definitely would NOT approve! (but would get more attention from boys)  She thought it was normal becasue she did it.

No, I am not assuming it came from him.

I'm not assuming they didn't ask their daughter.

I'm not assuming they are horrible evil controlling duggars because they don't want her to have a boyfriend at 15yo.

I'm not assuming they are trying to "control everything without developing a trusting and healthy relationship".

I'm assuming that any one of my kids could have done something similar even if I did my best in parenting them.

I'm assuming that they are trying their best to parent their girl who they found out as a secret phone, secret boyfriend, secret life and I'm sure whatever shame we perfect moms here at wtm could throw on them for being such strict nincompoops, they are feeling much much worse about what is going on and what they did wrong in raising her. at 15yo a lot of that is water under the bridge and I'm assuming they are scared about what kind of things a 15yo girl could encounter on a secret internet account with social media.

I'm assuming that no matter what you think of their stance on dating, their daughter broke their trust and I can imagine in any circumstance, even if you were not strict at all, that could happen and it would be hard to take as a parent.

I'm assuming her parents are asking around because she won't answer or they think she's lying to keep someone out of trouble and they are asking parents if they recognize the phone. If I got a text and a question like that I would just say, 'sorry, no. is there anything I need to know about?" and go from there. i would not put all these weird, awful motivations onto these people that they think my son is some kind of deviant.

 

[BronzeTurtle]

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think you are reading way more into my posts than is there.

 

I'm using almost your exact words or trying to quote directly and respond to things you have said. If I put words in your mouth please let me know and I will delete.

[BronzeTurtle]

8 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I think it would be very strange for the parents of two 15yos to sit down at a family-to-family conference to talk out what they will or won't allow their high school teenagers to do/think/feel with or about each other.

 

The OP is talking about pulling her kid from an organization because of this and the kids already have a relationship. If they can't all get together for dinner or a coffee or something because...? then honestly the kids, 15yo kids, are definitely not in a position to date of all things and be boyfriend and girlfriend.

I don't think adults should tell kids what they would be allowed to feel or think and that's an extremely uncharitable take on what I've suggested.

But adults should be able to say, hey why don't we limit one-on-one time at our house or her house? how about group dates instead? we'd really love to have her over. Maybe the adults work on this together without the kids, but maybe everyone just puts their cards on the table as grown ass people. Look, the four of us are having a problem, let's deal with it. That isn't infantilizing, esp if these kids think they are grown enough to be boyfriend and girlfriend.

I don't think you can deal with each kid in their own silo because they are already together.

I don't know anyone I dated in high school or beyond that I couldn't have a chat with at least one parent of his, or he with mine. 

At 15 they aren't even driving and parents would be around regardless from place to place.

15 is hardly brain/emotional maturity level for parents stepping out entirely.

It's not infantilizing for kids to talk to their parents about dating or parameters thereof, even together. it actually seems rather a mature move to be open and honest vs sneaking everything and parents reading bad implications into questions about secret phones and whatnot.

[BronzeTurtle]

25 minutes ago, Frances said:

If they did do it, they should have shared her answer with the OP. Did they ask everyone in her life if they gave her a phone? By asking about the boy they are implying he is a suspect. Did they also question all of her friends, neighbors, teachers, coaches, etc.? 

Why should they have shared it with her? WHo knows what they did? That's my point. You don't know. I don't know. Why assume they didn't ask her bff's mom the same way they asked the OP? 

You keep saying the mere question is an implication. The implication is in the profile pic and the secret relationship. The question is because of that. He has implicated himself. The phone is adjacent to that but the claim of a relationship behind the parents back is what caused them to ask and he is actually in the picture so it's not like that's beyond the pale to ask if he knows something about the phone.

They asked the OP a question. The OP can say no and move on. It's really not the pearl clutching moment people are making it out to be.

[bolt.]

It's normal for parents of teenagers to talk to their own kids about their own dating goals and boundaries.

It's very strange for four parents to make two teens' dating lives into a joint project of the supervising adults.

15yo is a perfectly normal time to have one's first romantic boyfriend or girlfriend. If that isn't one particular family's way, that's fine, but it's a really normal development in most high schooler's lives: to form relationships and hang out with a romantic interest -- with or without letting one's parents know. (But certainly without inviting one's parents into a management role!)

Teen dating relationships are 90% about what the teens think, feel, and say to each other. They are only about 10% about where they hang out, for how long, and the transportation required to facilitate it. If the parents want to joint-coordinate that 10% of things, I guess that's less weird than meeting up to actually discuss the relationship itself... but it still seems intrusive, pointless, and pointlessly dramatic.

I really don't think there's any "problem" that these four parents have, other than the one that the girl's mother has set herself up for: that privacy with honesty wasn't an option between them, so the teen opted for privacy with dishonesty. That's pretty easy to recognize, not really that hard to reverse, and doesn't require any involvement outside of the two of them to resolve.

Certainly the parents of the boy don't have any problem that needs resolving. For the OP, the parents of the boy: As far as they can tell, their kid is receptive to their coaching and he finds their limits workable (aside perhaps from *possibly* being willing to say the word 'girlfriend' against their wishes while still abiding by the concrete limits around what that relationship looks like and includes). That's really not anything that rises to the level of "problem" as far as I assess the "problems" that can arise during these years.

[Frances]

6 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

The OP is talking about pulling her kid from an organization because of this and the kids already have a relationship. If they can't all get together for dinner or a coffee or something because...? then honestly the kids, 15yo kids, are definitely not in a position to date of all things and be boyfriend and girlfriend.

I don't think adults should tell kids what they would be allowed to feel or think and that's an extremely uncharitable take on what I've suggested.

But adults should be able to say, hey why don't we limit one-on-one time at our house or her house? how about group dates instead? we'd really love to have her over. Maybe the adults work on this together without the kids, but maybe everyone just puts their cards on the table as grown ass people. Look, the four of us are having a problem, let's deal with it. That isn't infantilizing, esp if these kids think they are grown enough to be boyfriend and girlfriend.

I don't think you can deal with each kid in their own silo because they are already together.

I don't know anyone I dated in high school or beyond that I couldn't have a chat with at least one parent of his, or he with mine. 

At 15 they aren't even driving and parents would be around regardless from place to place.

15 is hardly brain/emotional maturity level for parents stepping out entirely.

It's not infantilizing for kids to talk to their parents about dating or parameters thereof, even together. it actually seems rather a mature move to be open and honest vs sneaking everything and parents reading bad implications into questions about secret phones and whatnot.

No is saying the parents shouldn’t talk to their own kids about dating, values, social media, etc. No one is saying the parents should step out entirely. Everyone knows teen brains are not mature and emotions can rule. But personally, I would have been mortified as a teen for my parents to call a gathering of everyone to discuss my “relationship” with a guy I hung out with at school. I likely would have refused to attend and I was a very obedient, compliant child. Almost my entire middle school was paired off into “boyfriends” and “girlfriends”. It meant nothing and no discussion was needed.

If the parents set firm rules and their daughter is following them but the boy is violating them, that’s the time to involve the other parents and the boy. Of course they can feel free to invite him to their house or on an outing anytime and get to know him better. I can totally understand the parent’s being freaked out when they discovered the phone. I still don’t get calling him a “secret boyfriend”. 

[Rosie_0801]

Not-girlfriend's mum is the one putting the most effort into supporting the relationship at present. Left to themselves, most teen relationships don't last longer than a few weeks.

[Frances]

35 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Why should they have shared it with her? WHo knows what they did? That's my point. You don't know. I don't know. Why assume they didn't ask her bff's mom the same way they asked the OP? 

You keep saying the mere question is an implication. The implication is in the profile pic and the secret relationship. The question is because of that. He has implicated himself. The phone is adjacent to that but the claim of a relationship behind the parents back is what caused them to ask and he is actually in the picture so it's not like that's beyond the pale to ask if he knows something about the phone.

They asked the OP a question. The OP can say no and move on. It's really not the pearl clutching moment people are making it out to be.

They are in activities together, it’s not surprising a picture exists of them together. It’s not surprising she may have posted it on a social media account with or without his knowledge. It’s not surprising they may think of each other as boyfriend and girlfriend even though they do nothing except chat at group events. Yes, it sounds like she is trying to hide things from her parents. I don’t get where he necessarily did anything wrong. He likes the girl, that’s all we know.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Frances

[Katy]

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

They are in activities together, it’s not surprising a picture exists of them together. It’s not surprising she may have posted it on a social media account without his knowledge. It’s not surprising they may think of each other as boyfriend and girlfriend even though they do nothing except chat at group events. Yes, it sounds like she is trying to hide things from her parents. I don’t get where he necessarily did anything wrong. He likes a girl, that’s all we know.

Or, more accurately, he DID like a girl.  All this drama may be exciting or a huge red flag for him, we don't know.

[Scarlett]

In the mom’s defense some kids are just more likely to be rebellious and push back against any boundary set. It isn’t always that the kid is rebellious because the mom is too strict.

Edited to add….sorry I did not get to finish my thought.  We have no way of knowing how much trouble this girl may have already given her parents.  
 

To the OP I don’t think you have mishandled any of it and I certainly would not pull my kid out of that activity.  
 

I well remember age 15 and some of those feelings can last a lifetime…..that doesn’t mean parents are overbearing by trying to reign things in.  My mom was property strict but honestly I wish she had been a little more strict at times.  

Edited November 1, 2023 by Scarlett

[Brittany1116]

40 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

In the mom’s defense some kids are just more likely to be rebellious and push back against any boundary set. It isn’t always that the kid is rebellious because the mom is too strict.

Absolutely. Also, no one here has any clue if the girl has a history of lying, running away, self-harm, or anything else that would warrant mom acting as she has. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Brittany1116 said:

Absolutely. Also, no one here has any clue if the girl has a history of lying, running away, self-harm, or anything else that would warrant mom acting as she has. 

Yes, I was editing to add that thought when you posted.  Some kids are very difficult.  

[BronzeTurtle]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

It's normal for parents of teenagers to talk to their own kids about their own dating goals and boundaries.

It's very strange for four parents to make two teens' dating lives into a joint project of the supervising adults.

I'm not talking about making it into a project. I'm not talking about any two "normal" teens but this specific situation where waters are already muddied and people are getting offended and teens are keeping secrets. I'm simply talking about open communications between all parties, everyone on the same page.

it was very normal in my day to have boys talk to parents and girls to meet his parents and everyone know curfews and rules and who was going to be where.

I'm fine with disagreement but this is the second time you've responded in bad faith, and have made it out that I want this to be about controlling what kids think in some kind of creepy "project". So forgive me if I no longer reply to your responses.

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by BronzeTurtle

[Resilient]

BTDT re: this nightmare. All I can say is be honest between you and your son, and this (impt): you have no knowledge of what is being said by or to girl or mom. 
 

Things blew up in our situation and it was terrible.  The thing that made people listen to our “side” was that I had screenshots of every post-set between my kid and the other party. 
 

We did involve administrators because the other party was slandering my son and sending “we all want you to die” texts to my son. Needless to say, her parents were brought up to date when the administration showed those screenshots. 
 

Keep things open in your family. I do not envy you this situation. We could have done better than we did if …we were different people. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Not-girlfriend's mum is the one putting the most effort into supporting the relationship at present. Left to themselves, most teen relationships don't last longer than a few weeks.

not-girlfriend's mom who doesn't want her daughter in a relationship, but is feeding the drama with her daughter.
Could be her daughter likes that drama as her mom is jumping to her tune . . . .

7 minutes ago, Resilient said:

BTDT re: this nightmare. All I can say is be honest between you and your son, and this (impt): you have no knowledge of what is being said by or to girl or mom. 
 

Things blew up in our situation and it was terrible.  The thing that made people listen to our “side” was that I had screenshots of every post-set between my kid and the other party. 
 

We did involve administrators because the other party was slandering my son and sending “we all want you to die” texts to my son. Needless to say, her parents were brought up to date when the administration showed those screenshots. 
 

Keep things open in your family. I do not envy you this situation. We could have done better than we did if …we were different people. 

I'm so sorry - and that's why kids (boys and girls) need to learn what this type of drama is, and where it can lead.  And what they can do when they see the flags so they can try to avoid it.

[Frances]

37 minutes ago, Brittany1116 said:

Absolutely. Also, no one here has any clue if the girl has a history of lying, running away, self-harm, or anything else that would warrant mom acting as she has. 

True, but if that’s the case even more reason to focus on her own daughter and her relationship with her. And if they are contacting the boy’s family, they should be alerting them to potential red flags like this, not just trying to get information and place blame.

[Sneezyone]

This is all so cray and why I’ve advised my son to rebuff every girl who’s expressed interest (overtly) thus far. Several have and they, fortunately, make him nervous. Parents of girls are often cray WRT female sex drives and passions (so says a parent of BOTH who still communicate with us…ugh). We have a family rule…DON’T PLAY WITH CRAY.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

This is all so gray and why I’ve advised my son to rebuff every girl who’s expressed interred (overtly) this far. Parents of girls are often cray.

Unfortunately doing so, even politely, can also lead to drama and parents trying to get involved. I had both parents and girls contacting me when my son was a teen, asking why he didn’t “like” them or their daughter.

[BronzeTurtle]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

They are in activities together, it’s not surprising a picture exists of them together. It’s not surprising she may have posted it on a social media account with or without his knowledge. 

If that is the case, as a parent that is also something I'd like to know. most parents can't control a 15yo kid but stalking someone on social media to the point of using their photo and calling them your boyfriend/girlfriend without permission is rarely a great thing. i don't know how i would navigate that as an adult, tbh. if I were the parent of either party in that situation i'd like to know it was happening and address it with some sort of third party...an administrator or the other kids' parents if they are reasonable.

Imagine a boy posting a pic of a girl online without her knowledge and claiming her as his girlfriend. super creepy.

I don't see any scenario where as a parent I wouldn't want to know what all is going on with a secret phone used to hide a relationship between my kid and another kid. if the other kid's parents are truly unreasonable, I would tell my kid to stay away from them. that would be perceived as me prohibiting dating and being super strict and crazy...I guess I wouldn't care.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Frances said:

Unfortunately doing so, even politely, can also lead to drama and parents trying to get involved. I had both parents and girls contacting me when my son was a teen, asking why he didn’t “like” them or their daughter.

BTDT. DS consistently seeks parental coaching. If things escalate beyond that, as a parent, I’d contact school administrators and alert them to the issue. I don’t play with my kids. He said what he said. I said what I said. They act or reap the whirlwind.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Sneezyone

[BronzeTurtle]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

Unfortunately doing so, even politely, can also lead to drama and parents trying to get involved. I had both parents and girls contacting me when my son was a teen, asking why he didn’t “like” them or their daughter.

Isn't that the opposite of this scenario? Isn't it the mom trying to keep the daughter from dating? She's not demanding the op's son date her daughter right? So confused how this is related.

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

Unfortunately doing so, even politely, can also lead to drama and parents trying to get involved. I had both parents and girls contacting me when my son was a teen, asking why he didn’t “like” them or their daughter.

How bizarre. 

[Frances]

Just now, BronzeTurtle said:

If that is the case, as a parent that is also something I'd like to know. most parents can't control a 15yo kid but stalking someone on social media to the point of using their photo and calling them your boyfriend/girlfriend without permission is rarely a great thing. i don't know how i would navigate that as an adult, tbh. if I were the parent of either party in that situation i'd like to know it was happening and address it with some sort of third party...an administrator or the other kids' parents if they are reasonable.

Imagine a boy posting a pic of a girl online without her knowledge and claiming her as his girlfriend. super creepy.

I don't see any scenario where as a parent I wouldn't want to know what all is going on with a secret phone used to hide a relationship between my kid and another kid. if the other kid's parents are truly unreasonable, I would tell my kid to stay away from them. that would be perceived as me prohibiting dating and being super strict and crazy...I guess I wouldn't care.

I think you are using some pretty inflammatory words. I can pretty easily imagine a scenario where two teens like each other but only one has a social media account and/or only one posts about the relationship online. I would not call that stalking or super creepy. It sounds like they actually both like each other. The fact that one might be more public about it online is not necessarily wrong. Teens are immature.

Of course any parent would want to know about a secret phone. That’s why they need to get to the bottom of things with her. And we don’t know that it exists only to hide this relationship. Who knows what she is all lying about and what she is using the phone for.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think you are using some pretty inflammatory words. I can pretty easily imagine a scenario where two teens like each other but only one has a social media account and/or only one posts about the relationship online. I would not call that stalking or super creepy. It sounds like they actually both like each other. The fact that one might be more public about it online is not necessarily wrong. Teens are immature.

Of course any parent would want to know about a secret phone. That’s why they need to get to the bottom of things with her. And we don’t know that it exists only to hide this relationship. Who knows what she is all lying about and what she is using the phone for.

I think you’re being SUPER naive about the forwardness that exists these days. Outside physical force, there’s no difference in the lack of boundaries that boys and girls exhibit and, yes, some kids have more home training WRT social media and appropriate SM behavior than others. I would insist that my son eliminate any/all comms with this girl and press the school to assist in that effort.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Sneezyone

[BronzeTurtle]

Also if a parent is contacting other parents trying to get another kid to like their kid or date them or find out why they won't, that is unhinged, just for the record, i agree and would not condone it.

my posts on this subject are only speaking of this specific scenario where there is a secret phone and secret social media used to facilitate a secret relationship at 15yo. That is where as a parent I would speak to my own child and probably try to trust my own kid but verify with the other involved party that no one is being harmed or slandered or bullied on the internet or stalked. if most people are fine with kids having whatever boyfriends and girlfriends and no one meets anyone or talks about it, that is weird to me but on the whole it's not my circus so I don't really care. I just don't think it's unreasonable to want to have open communication about dating at that age, whatever that looks like.

[BronzeTurtle]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think you are using some pretty inflammatory words. I can pretty easily imagine a scenario where two teens like each other but only one has a social media account and/or only one posts about the relationship online. I would not call that stalking or super creepy. It sounds like they actually both like each other. The fact that one might be more public about it online is not necessarily wrong. Teens are immature.

 

Frances, I was using your hypothetical. I bolded it. The key words were "without his knowledge" and that is not okay in any scenario. It is creepy to post a photo of someone on the internet and claim them as your SO without their knowledge. 

[SKL]

Why are we assuming the secret phone was for the purpose of secretly communicating with OP's son?

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

Why are we assuming the secret phone was for the purpose of secretly communicating with OP's son?

I’m not. I don’t care why it exists. The mere fact that it does says kid/parents aren’t on the same page and are BAD NEWS…avoid at all costs.

[Shoeless]

Not-girlfriend's mom sure is breathing life into this relationship.

ETA: I would not pull my son from this activity. Based on what the op has described, he's not doing anything wrong. I'd let the instructor(s) know they have my blessing to make sure son and not-girlfriend are seated apart. And then I'd keep son busy busy busy so that he doesn't have much time for chatting with not-girlfriend, and let the whole thing fizzle out over the holiday season.    

Edited November 1, 2023 by Shoeless

[BusyMom5]

I'm wondering if there is more going on with the girl than OP knows about.  I find nothing wrong with their relationship at this point- you guys aren't taking them on dates together or setting up romantic trips.  It's just high school crush and totally normal.  I do find the hidden phone troubling, and I can see mom asking if it had been yours if she's trying to track down how many lies her DD us telling.  

OP, I wouldn't do anything else at this point.  You've answered her questions. If she persists on a meeting or such, I would tell her that school based girlfriend/boyfriend relationships at thus age are normal and age appropriate and you will not interfere.  

In talking to my son, I would point out red flags.  My brother almost married someone with a crazy mom.  She's the reason he eventually broke it off.  It was sad, bc she was a very nice girl, but her mom was crazy, over-involved, controlling. When you marry, you get the whole family.  In-laws matter!  This is a Teaching opportunity. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

I wanted to keep up better on this thread but couldn’t. I am reading it all and taking it all in. I would not pull him from the group because of a crush, but because I don’t want my son painted as a creep. I don’t know how to describe the dynamic of this group but it is something. It’s 12 kids, private schooled (except my son and another girl we know) until it shut down before the school year started. My son didn’t know any of them  except the other homeschooler until this school year started.  After the talk from the teacher and other characteristics of the group, I could see them making my son the problem. The parents are intense. 

Interestingly, the girl changed her profile pic and took the “taken” quote off the day after I showed it to my son. I’m going to keep communicating with my son like we have been. I’ve told him I have no problem with him liking someone but I want him to respect the parents’ wishes. At the same time, I like the idea of pointing out the CRAY so he can stay away.😂

[bolt.]

I think you've come to a good conclusion and perspective here. It's good that you, with your personal experience, know how intense this family is -- and how much 'cray' you can expect from them. If you feel the possibility of your son being painted as the problem, I'm inclined to trust that perception, and advise you to remain aware of that sense of threat.

It's interesting that you are advising your kid to respect the parents' wishes. If it were me, I can see that to be one factor I'd want him to be considering. But I'd tend towards acknowledging/advising that respecting the wishes of the girl (if they are at variance from her parents' wishes) is also a factor worth considering 'in balance' and with wisdom.

It's fairly obvious that he's likely to face that dilemma, and if your advice is "100% follow the parents" without question or nuance... that advice isn't going to mesh well with the real situation with lots of internal and external pressure to prioritize the girl's own wishes. Instead it might be worth acknowledging that it's tricky to find a good choice in a situation like that, that it might not be either-or, and advise him to ponder it in all its nuances and take his time.

[kbutton]

20 hours ago, bolt. said:

 

It's much more normal for each set of parents to coach their own kid in keeping with their own values, and to to try to keep in-family communication open in the best ways they know how. Hopefully with due respect, kindness, and a high regard for healthy boundaries. And whenever 'your' teen crosses your boundaries you do your best... but it doesn't really involve the other family. Whether 'your' kid responds to your coaching or abides within your limits is strictly your own business.

That’s not always enough. The pursuing party in the relationship can come from a super stable healthy family but be the crazy one themselves and be the one that is pushing the boundaries. The pursuing party can be triangulating an issue. In this case the girl is not contacting the boy’s parents, but that happens also.

18 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

Absolutely. Also, no one here has any clue if the girl has a history of lying, running away, self-harm, or anything else that would warrant mom acting as she has. 

This too.

Don’t quote the next part…

Removed 

17 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

 

Imagine a boy posting a pic of a girl online without her knowledge and claiming her as his girlfriend. super creepy.

Don’t quote this part…removed

17 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I think you’re being SUPER naive about the forwardness that exists these days. 

Agreed. Then add in potential mental issues…not fun.

Edited November 1, 2023 by kbutton

[KungFuPanda]

I feel for @AbcdeDooDah's son.  It's weird.  He sees the girl at school.  It's not like they're dating or alone or anything.  He's just socializing at school like a normal person.  How could anyone paint HIM as creepy?  The kid just went to school and talked to a girl.  How are the intense parents being intense about this? Are they obsessively academic and they want no socializing or are they into Purity Culture or what? I get being mad that someone caught their daughter lying but how does that make the boy the obvious suspect for supplying a phone?  It would make more sense to call the friends first.  

I'd probably let the boy decide if he wanted to continue to go.  I wouldn't pull him because some weird parent is pointing fingers.  I certainly wouldn't have any kind of family meeting with the girl's family.  That just doesn't seem like a normal thing to do.  I would discuss the interactions with my son and talk to him about what a healthy, productive reaction looks like and what behaviors concern you and why. What social sway would these parents even have over your son?  Generally when someone is just nutty, everyone knows they're nutty and doesn't trust their grand pronouncements.