Tell me if I’m a jerk…

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I don’t know how to ask any of this without sounding like a jerk, so if ya’ll tell me I’m a jerk, I will probably agree.

SIL(husband’s sister) and her husband are in the foster to adopt process. Before this the child they are adopting was good friends with my daughter as they attended the same church youth group(foster niece attended the church with her then foster parents).  I am sort of against all of this because this child needs experienced parents, they only agreed to foster adopt her because they’re desperate(she is much older than the 2-8 year old age range they felt comfortable with), and her trauma and behaviors are far beyond what they want to deal with.  I posted before my daughter’s concerns with foster niece attending her school, which is very small, private, and one we specifically chose for DD to attend without her brothers special needs overshadowing her.  The school situation itself with foster niece has also been a disaster but that’s not for this post.

Thats background. Here’s what I feel is making me a jerk.

I don’t know how to love and welcome foster niece into our family when she is constantly not nice to my youngest two kids(she ignores my thirteen year old). For example, today SIL called to ask if my youngest could go with them to the mall. They knew they were on speaker phone and that my daughter was listening.  Foster niece said right on the phone that she didn’t want to invite daughter because daughter is “boring” and “not fun.” Daughter is very athletic, academic, stable and is sick of the drama foster niece is always trying to stir up. She was really hurt by this comment though.  I said no, my youngest couldn’t go.  My SIL said okay that’s fine.  Next thing I know foster niece used her own phone to call my husband and ask if my son can go, husband said yes not knowing I’d said no, and told my son who then got all excited.  I needed to do a bunch of things today but have been dealing with this instead. (DH realized he needed to double check with me from now on, but he’s one of those people who always assumes there are no lies or deceit going on)

The jerky part is that SIL helped us out so much when we were dealing with my oldest’s behaviors and mental health struggles. She stepped in over the years and did a lot of things with my youngest kids that I was unable to do—amusement parks, theater plays, etc, things my oldest couldn’t handle and they’d have missed out on otherwise.  So I feel like a tool insisting that we keep our distance right now, but every interaction with foster niece winds up with my daughter hurt and my youngest son wildly dysregulated.

And yes—I have explained to my kids that they’re fortunate to have never known anything but safety, love, warm beds and plenty of food, no one has ever even smacked them much less abuse, and they’ve never had to worry about a parent who is drunk or high.  I also do think my daughter’s feelings shouldn’t get hurt but she is so much more sensitive to things than I am so I want to respect that.

But frankly I just want to be low contact with anyone that is a destabilizing force in my kids’ lives.  We are in this smooth sailing stage right now after years of turbulence and I am guarding that…but maybe I am also being cruel to a traumatized child and the SIL who has spent years helping us.  I want to be helpful and loving, but every interaction the last three months has ended badly for my own kids. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[cjzimmer1]

Honestly I don't think you are being a jerk.  And keeping space does seem like the best choice for your kids.  Is there a way to explain to SIL that niece's issues stress your kids out and therefore you need to limit the amount of time kids spend together?  Or is that something she will be offended by?

[maize]

Are their ways for you personally to "show up" for SIL and New Niece without involving the kids?

Maybe you could take Niece to a movie or something--just the two of you?

I don't think you need to put your kids in the way of harm in order to be supportive. Protect them, but show up as support yourself.

I know you have very limited time and bandwidth,  but it sounds like you genuinely want to reciprocate the support SIL has offered your family over the years and I'm thinking this might be a way to do that without involving the kids.

Looking forward a bit, you might find ways for your kids to be involved in supporting their relatives in ways that don't put them in the line of fire for harmful behavior from niece. I'm thinking of something like secret santa/twelve days of Christmas deliveries where there is service happening without active contact.

[ktgrok]

Is SIL maybe hoping that your kids will rub off on foster child? 

Could you talk to SIl and say you would love to help with foster child, but want to keep your kids out of it right now, as they are not old enough to deal with foster child's sometimes hurtful behavior without taking it personally? They YOU know it is coming from trauma, but they just are not mature enough to handle it so maybe just YOu and not the kids hang out with foster kid?

[katilac]

Have you vocalized your boundaries and then enforced them? 

Sister and niece, it is not acceptable to be rude to anyone. I will end the conversation when this happens, and niece will not be allowed to interact with any of the other children. 

And then do it. The minute niece starts with I don't want X to come, you hang up the phone. You don't let her continue and you remove her audience. 

You can minimize contact, but you know it is going to happen anyway. Give notice that the phone will be hung up, the visit will be ended, you will leave the house or event . . . and then do it, with zero commentary. 

None of my kids would be going off with her and your sis, period. Supervised visits only, including being in the same room and in earshot at all times. Your dh doesn't need to check in with you, because the answer is always no. 

If you want to be there for your sister like she was there for you, that can certainly happen. You can do things with niece! You're an adult who can make that adult decision, and your feelings might get hurt in the moment but you won't be harmed by your niece acting out the way your kids will. 

I would be 100% transparent with both sister and niece, and I wouldn't yo-go back and forth. No, you can't hang out with Kid Y because you weren't rude to Kid X for a week, we're going to keep it supervised. 

If it's easier to put a doctor or therapist in the role of saying this is for the best, then by all means do that. 

[katilac]

22 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Is SIL maybe hoping that your kids will rub off on foster child? 

Could you talk to SIl and say you would love to help with foster child, but want to keep your kids out of it right now, as they are not old enough to deal with foster child's sometimes hurtful behavior without taking it personally? They YOU know it is coming from trauma, but they just are not mature enough to handle it so maybe just YOu and not the kids hang out with foster kid?

Personally, I wouldn't go down the road of saying that my kids lack the maturity to handle it and so forth. The problem is not their lack of  maturity, the problem is niece's behavior - I know what you mean by this, and it isn't incorrect, but it leaves too much room to hurt the feelings of OP's kids and for sister and niece to cast blame their way. 

Acting that way toward my kids is not acceptable, and I am the one making the decision to limit contact and keep it supervised. 

But yes to the OP being as much of a loving presence as a she is able, which could include phone calls, letters, and fun surprises when she isn't able to be there in person. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by katilac

[gardenmom5]

 Bless your dh's heart, he sounds very sweet.  It's a painful lesson to learn there are people who can not be trusted to tell the truth.  (though there's a reason there's a meme of "if mom says no, go ask dad".)  Did sil know the girl did an end run around you?  That absolutely should not be tolerated.

No - you weren't a jerk.  they were.  SIL should have called out the foster niece for so rudely stating she didn't want your dd to go, especially if they knew they were on speaker phone and the girl knew she'd be heard.
How easy it would have been to simply ask if your son could go. It would have been more honest.  

it sounds like your sil was doing things with your kids and no drama queen/king was present.  Now, she has a kid who is lacking in social skills . . . and they need to be taught.  I get it, I came from such a messed up family, there were a lot of basic social skills I didn't know (and having ASD just made things worse.)

I completely understand wanting to avoid the drama.  I'd also give the school a heads up you don't want them partnered with each other for activities unless your daughter asks.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

34 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Is SIL maybe hoping that your kids will rub off on foster child? 

Could you talk to SIl and say you would love to help with foster child, but want to keep your kids out of it right now, as they are not old enough to deal with foster child's sometimes hurtful behavior without taking it personally? They YOU know it is coming from trauma, but they just are not mature enough to handle it so maybe just YOu and not the kids hang out with foster kid?

I think SIL has the big family dream.  Like me, she and DH grew up surrounded by many first cousins and big family get togethers were frequent.  My kids don’t have that on my side either due to geography and I get having to grieve the loss of the dream, but the kids do not get along like they possibly would if they’d grown up together and there was no trauma.

DH is, like our children, not at all street smart.  Foster niece is very smart, has had to be smart to survive, and picked up on that very quickly. She exploits it anytime she can which is what happened today.  SIL didn’t know that foster niece had called my husband after I said no.  She’s prefer foster niece didn’t have a phone anyway, but she had it before the placement and her caseworker said they can’t take it away. 

I have been very careful not to try to parent; especially while bonding and attaching is happening.  Mostly I’ve been waiting until my own kids said something rude back to foster niece and then ending the contact at that time.  Because my children are not at all precious innocent angels themselves, but in this case, they are not instigating the issues.

I have explained it to my daughter that foster niece’s brain is probably stuck on chaos, that’s what she knows, and when life is too stable she tries to create drama and chaos because that’s what makes her feel safe. DD hates drama and chaos, craves stability, and is incredibly grouchy about all of this.  While the teachers know the situation, this school is small and there’s fewer than 10 students in the sixth grade class. Public school is not an option for DD and if I mention homeschooling she goes into hysterics. 11 is a rough age anyway, but things are tough for her all over right now.

I would enjoy doing things alone with foster niece; however, I have very little time without my kids.  If I don’t have my kids, I’m at work, and DH and I are back to working alternating shifts so one of us is home. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

ink SIL has the big family dream.  Like me, she and DH grew up surrounded by many first cousins and big family get togethers were frequent.  My kids don’t have that on my side either due to geography and I get having to grieve the loss of the dream, but the kids do not get along like they possibly would if they’d grown up together and there was no trauma.

Even growing up together with no trauma is no guarantee of a big close family.   1 of my kids is BFFs with their same age cousins, but a couple of mine just don’t get along with a couple of their cousins.  All of them grew up together with regular family dinners and activities.  Sometimes you just don’t click.  The ones that don’t get along mostly just politely ignore each other at gatherings.  

[gardenmom5]

13 minutes ago, katilac said:

Have you vocalized your boundaries and then enforced them? 

Sister and niece, it is not acceptable to be rude to anyone. I will end the conversation when this happens, and niece will not be allowed to interact with any of the other children. 

And then do it. The minute niece starts with I don't want X to come, you hang up the phone. You don't let her continue and you remove her audience. 

 

None of my kids would be going off with her and your sis, period. Supervised visits only, including being in the same room and in earshot at all times. Your dh doesn't need to check in with you, because the answer is always no. 

If you want to be there for your sister like she was there for you, that can certainly happen. You can do things with niece! You're an adult who can make that adult decision, and your feelings might get hurt in the moment but you won't be harmed by your niece acting out the way your kids will. 

I would be 100% transparent with both sister and niece, and I wouldn't go back and forth. No, you can't hang out with Kid Y because you weren't rude to Kid X for a week, we're going to keep it supervised. 

If it's easier to put a doctor or therapist in the role of saying this is for the best, then by all means do that. 

This.   after you say "goodbye".   I did that with my grandmother as soon as she'd start to be rude. I'd say goodbye and hang up until the next week.  It took a year before she stopped being rude - and she was in her 70s!
 

all of this.
 

[prairiewindmomma]

Not a jerk. I think you are seeing the situation clearly and I think you are doing what you need to to protect your kids. 
 

If I were you, I’d be as blunt with SIL as you are here. You wish them all well, but you need to be low contact. Head off the awkward invites, iykwim. Then, be at peace in your mind.

Y’all have all had more than enough chaos. You need a quiet season. 🩷

[KungFuPanda]

What if both families had an open, honest conversation and set forth clear boundaries and consequences. It doesn’t seem right to get upset when Dd is excluded but take steps to exclude foster niece. Presumable she’s going to be in your family forever. Think ten years down the road. What results do you want? What do you want to model for all the kids? How would you want the family to respond when your child is the troubled one?

is it possible to get your whole family in one room, maybe with a counselor, and put everything out there in a clear way? Anything that looks like secrecy or scheming isn’t good. This girl is trying to make her place in a new family. She’s going to be bad at it and in survival mode. You can’t approach this like a chess game. The family needs to be clear, open, and fair. The church and school may also need to be briefed.
 

You enjoyed unconditional support when you needed it. That’s not easy to give but it’s the right thing. Now someone else needs support. A clear, loving rule could be that ALL the kids have to treat ALL the other kids respectfully if you’re going to spend time together. Give chances and be prepared for a plan B when she crosses the line. She will, but these are learning opportunities. 

[prairiewindmomma]

3 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

What if both families had an open, honest conversation and set forth clear boundaries and consequences. It doesn’t seem right to get upset when Dd is excluded but take steps to exclude foster niece. Presumable she’s going to be in your family forever. Think ten years down the road. What results do you want? What do you want to model for all the kids? How would you want the family to respond when your child is the troubled one?

is it possible to get your whole family in one room, maybe with a counselor, and put everything out there in a clear way? Anything that looks like secrecy or scheming isn’t good. This girl is trying to make her place in a new family. She’s going to be bad at it and in survival mode. You can’t approach this like a chess game. The family needs to be clear, open, and fair. The church and school may also need to be briefed.
 

You enjoyed unconditional support when you needed it. That’s not easy to give but it’s the right thing. Now someone else needs support. A clear, loving rule could be that ALL the kids have to treat ALL the other kids respectfully if you’re going to spend time together. Give chances and be prepared for a plan B when she crosses the line. She will, but these are learning opportunities. 

I would feel this way if there wasnt already several months of back history of interactions and if OP’s SN youngest didnt have high behaviors being set off.

[bolt.]

I don't think you are being a jerk.

Two things that might help:

First: You seem to have some automatic internal categories of "families as units" which leans you towards thinking that your *whole* family unit might or might not be able (or willing) to provide care/support for her *whole* family unit. It will help if you start thinking of each relationship individually. *You* can provide support for your SIL. *You* can provide care for your new niece. (Your kids might or might not be able to do those things. And if they can, it will be as individuals who will have different, individual relationships with their aunt, and with their cousin.)

When you break it down and sort it out into individual paths, you will see more clearly which relationships the friction is in, which ones work well, and what actions tend to enhance wellbeing along each path. Things will start to open up and more possibilities will become clear. My guess is that you will be most reasonably able to help if you focus your care directly on your SIL. She probably has needs you can meet.

Second: You seem to assess and describe your new niece in ways that sound like you default to 'people choose their behaviours' type of thinking. I encourage you, in response to her past trauma, to try instead to think in terms of 'skills' and 'deficits' instead of choices or behaviours. Every time your niece does something wrong, try disciplining yourself to think: "What happened was a mistake (even if it was 'intentional') because it was rooted either in legitimate trauma life skills being mis-applied to a non-trauma scenario (which is a mistake) or in a skill that hasn't been adequately learned or isn't being adequately applied (which is a skills deficit)." -- this child makes 'choices' with the wrong data. That's why she gets unwanted results.

Only once you start thinking of her this way will you be able to offer any kind of behaviour help, or, really, even be able to express boundaries in a healthy way. (If you need to say, "Oh, that's not okay." -- there's two ways of saying that. One is the way you say it just to inform someone you think doesn't actually already know what's not okay and why. The other is the way you say it to reprimand someone who should know better. Only one way of saying actually offers her help through understanding. The other one is pointless and will just drive her underground.

It's subtle. And I know that it's weird to say that changing the way you *think* about her relational skills and deficits (and the role of her no-longer-relevant trauma skills) will change anything at all... it's a hard sell. But I think it's well worth it.

[City Mouse]

I went through something kind of similar with my SIL(husband’s sister). Her older and my older spent a lot of time together as young kids. Then they adopted a 1-yr old boy who ended up having lots of issues. One of the biggest issues that I had was that he did not like my younger child and that was obvious. Also, our parenting styles differed greatly. I used to hear from my DH’s older sister about why we didn’t spend more time getting the kids together etc. I won’t go in to all the details now because it just make me angry (and all the kids are over 21 now), but we had a cordial but distant relationship with the them, and it was okay. Cousins don’t have to be best friends.

[Melissa in Australia]

I hear you. I understand. You are not being a jerk at all 

 We don't have interactions with my nieces and nephews. We understand my siblings want to keep their children safe. We understand that other children don't know how to interact with my twins, And vise versa. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Melissa in Australia

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

44 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I would feel this way if there wasnt already several months of back history of interactions and if OP’s SN youngest didnt have high behaviors being set off.

Yes. Please don’t quote this part, but when my youngest becomes dysregulated, which the last few months has been primarily triggered by interactions with foster niece, he either threatens to hurt himself or wants to burn something down.  The therapist he sees believes it’s more a struggle of communication than actual suicidal or arsonist tendencies, and that since he struggles already with big emotions and communication he just lands on the worst things he can possibly think of instead of being able to accurately communicate his emotions.  But it’s not good and we need to reduce the triggers. This child doesn’t have autism like my oldest; it’s ADHD and frankly I think he’s got some trauma from being in the NICU if that’s possible. Idk if it is but he often acts like the kids I’ve worked with who struggled with attachment and feeling safe.

Honestly? I think it’s all just a clash of special needs. Thank God my oldest is completely stable, on the right meds and is a superstar right now academically and behaviorally.  I WANT to limit contact, I just don’t want to be a jerk to a hurting child and my SIL has been a present and active support and I want to be that for her.  But I need to keep our lives as free from chaos and as stable as possible because it sends DS8 spiraling. And my daughter just wants to attend school where no one knows her family and she’s surrounded by her very normal  low drama tweenage friends and her teachers who adore her.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Not_a_Number]

Oooof. What a hard situation. 

You're not AT ALL a jerk. On the other hand, I can see that this is tricky, because your SIL was there for you. 

I think this is a situation which needs to be handled slowly and gingerly. I really would make some time to spend some time with your foster niece one-on-one a few times, just to make it clear to your SIL that you're not rejecting her. 

And then I'd have a very frank conversation with your SIL. Find some time when you're one-on-one and you aren't harried. Tell her how you're feeling and how your kids are feeling. Let her be defensive about it (she will be!) but don't back down. And see if you can come at this from a place of empathy: if you say things like "My kids are having a hard time with this, BUT here's how we can help . . . ," you'll get more understanding. Don't talk about your foster niece's behavior except in purely descriptive terms, when explaining how they're affecting your kids. Don't explain what's going on in your foster niece's head to your SIL -- she doesn't sound ready to deal with that. Just be matter-of-fact and stick purely to the perspective "Here's what happening in my family." 

[maize]

I would find the school issue very stressful. In that and every situation you are absolutely not in the wrong to prioritize the well-being of your own children. As your niece's parents are hopefully prioritizing her wellbeing.

It's hard when there are no really good solutions and everyone is muddling through trying to pick least-bad solutions as they perceive them. 

[Drama Llama]

I don't think that you are being a jerk. I think it's reasonable for you to have boundaries and protect your child.

But I wanted to respond to this part as someone who brought an older traumatized into my family via adoption.

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

IIL(husband’s sister) and her husband are in the foster to adopt process. Before this the child they are adopting was good friends with my daughter as they attended the same church youth group(foster niece attended the church with her then foster parents).  I am sort of against all of this because this child needs experienced parents, they only agreed to foster adopt her because they’re desperate(she is much older than the 2-8 year old age range they felt comfortable with), and her trauma and behaviors are far beyond what they want to deal with.

Sometimes kids come into families in less than ideal ways.  They are born to teenage parents, or are conceived by parents who already have enough kids, or have medical issues that make a pregnancy high risk, or their parents were overly optimistic in the adoption process. 

But once they're in a family, they're there.  And they are children.  

You need to separate your judgment of their choice to adopt, from how you handle this situation.  Because when you talk about it, it seems as though you are trying to explain why she's not really your niece and you don't really have the same responsibility to her than you do to kids who entered the family differently.  And if that's coming across at all to your SIL/BIL/niece or to your own kids, or that's changing your thinking then that's not fair.  Once a child is in a family, they should be an equal member. 

I would ask yourself what you would do if your sister's biological child was having significant behavioral issues.  When your child was having significant behavioral issues, and family members with their own children supported you, what did that look like?  It might be that it looked like you stepping back and letting family members who didn't have young children provide the direct support to her.  It might be that your role here is to help in other ways (e.g. maybe your DH takes on more elder care responsibilities since his brother is busy) rather than helping your niece directly. Maybe you're a sounding board for you SIL.  I don't know the answer to that.  I'm sure it still involves boundaries.  Having those boundaries doesn't make you a jerk.  

[Terabith]

For what it’s worth, I am 100% sure NICU can cause trauma and attachment issues.  

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Terabith said:

For what it’s worth, I am 100% sure NICU can cause trauma and attachment issues.  

Oh, I missed that. Yep !00% agree. 

[Shoeless]

You're not a jerk.

Your niece needs supportive family around her. Your family simply isn't able to give the kind of support she needs. That's not mean or jerky; it's just how it is. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Oh…To be clear, I would have an issue with my SIL and BIL adopting anyone right now because they have not dealt with their own trauma of infertility.  It’s the desperation of wanting a child combined with wanting a child to fulfill their own desires that bothers me.  I know that’s very common and I think they’re very well meaning, but having been the aunt to a child with significant behavioral issues and having to live with it every day are two very different things.

I would not be entirely surprised if this foster to adopt situation disrupts and that is why I still refer to her as foster niece vs niece.  

I have truthfully never done any research into NICU trauma but I think I probably need to. Ds8 was a 28 weeker with a very difficult pregnancy leading up to the birth, and I am starting to wonder if there was more affects than just physical.

[Not_a_Number]

37 minutes ago, Terabith said:

For what it’s worth, I am 100% sure NICU can cause trauma and attachment issues.  

I hope this isn't too off-topic, but how do you know? I'm not surprised, although it's sad . . .

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I hope this isn't too off-topic, but how do you know? I'm not surprised, although it's sad . . .

I had two kids within 17 months, one of whom had as easy a NICU stay as is possible and the difference between their early infancies was profound.  But because I had a kid in the NICU, I did some reading and the science on trauma and attachment challenges for NICU kids was fully established as of 2003.  

[ScoutTN]

Not being a jerk. Your responsibilities to your own kids come before those to extended family. Do what your kids need, as nicely as you can. 

[Carrie12345]

You are not being a jerk.

I do see why you sort of feel like you are; ideally you would be able to reciprocate the help. But you can’t change the fact that it isn’t an ideal situation.

[SKL]

You're not being a jerk.  It is not wrong to want to protect your kids from real emotional threats, beyond a point.

You could couch it as your niece needing time to bond primarily with her parents first, before she can be expected to build healthy relationships with her cousins.

But I do understand and agree that you want to be there for your SIL as she's been there for you in the past.

I like the idea of maybe giving your SIL respite by spending time with your niece without your kids, or other alternative that doesn't put your kids in a difficult position.

I would also honestly try to find occasions where your kids do give some of their time to their cousin, for very limited duration with a clear cutoff.  For example, a one-hour activity after which you have to go somewhere else without the niece.  You could also give your kids permission to walk away if they are subjected to unacceptable behavior.  Maybe niece will learn something from that, maybe she won't.  Your kids will benefit from limited, brief opportunities to develop the skills and empathy that is required in dealing with challenging people.

[SKL]

Also ... it is probably true that the adoption wasn't a good idea, but at this point, if there any hope at all that it can work out, I would prefer that over another disruption.  I hope they are tapping into all available resources to increase their chances of success.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I did wind up talking to my SIL privately tonight. She sees all the issues that I do and is not easily offended.  I told her that I want to support her and she wants to spend time with my kids, so she suggested that perhaps we have kid swap nights.  I am perfectly happy to take foster niece out like you all suggested but was worried because I literally almost never have time without my kids. SIL offered to take my youngest especially and do things with him while I give her respite too(my older two kids can stay home alone for a few hours). 
I really truly want to support them and SIL wenr sbove and beyond for us, even to the point of moving in when DH was working 48 hour long shifts and my oldest was having significant ASD related behaviors.

But everything today really made me realize I need to research NICU trauma issues, because I need to get a handle on whatever I’m dealing with with DS8.  

SIL and BIL would be much better off if they had things like respite and family counseling and supports but DCFS here is ridiculously understaffed and incompetent.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Katy]

It sounds like you have a good handle on things.

I've found it hard to separate NICU trauma vs the brain damage from the medical conditions that had them in the NICU in the first place. I'm sure it's a thing though.

[Lecka]

Deleted

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Lecka