Article in NYT re: Americans losing faith in value of college degree

[Ginevra]

I find this article very important, both now and in coming decades. (I will try to put a link in but I struggle so no guarantees.) 

I have found this sentiment alarming for several years now. And, as the wife of a tradesman, I find it excruciatingly annoying when people hold up Plumbers as some perfect example of a good median wage without a degree. Yes, it can pay well but it’s NOOOOT an easy job and nobody becomes a well-earning plumber without classroom hours, tests and thousands of hours under apprenticeship. Not to mention what carrying cast iron tubs up three flights of stairs does to a worker’s back, shoulders and knees. The article points out too that Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts only 10,000 new plumbing jobs will open up in the US between now and 2031. 
 

In the article, another sobering statistic is that the fastest-growing fields for American workers with only a high school diploma are service fields like home health care, restaurant and food service work, which have median salaries of around $31,000. By 2030, there is expected to be a 6-8 million worker shortfall of associates and bachelor’s degree holding workers.
 

Meanwhile, non-American students (and their parents) still idealize and have a high degree of participation in college. Of course, most developed nations subsidize college educations at a much greater rate than the US, leaving American students slower to build wealth, even if they do earn higher wages. 
 

This will drive demand for degree-holding workers higher as supply decreases, which potentially makes the income gap between the two demographics greater. 
 

Discuss. 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Ginevra

[prairiewindmomma]

I think we’ve had a disintegration of the social contract. We operated under the promise that if we had skills we would be able to have a modest family life. Then we were told that we needed to be college educated. So, we went to do that. Then states took away subsidized tuition. We still took out loans believing that if we worked full time and paid our taxes we could own a modest home, have a kid or two who would be decently educated and kept safe in public schools and we could make it.

In the 1990s, the average middle class family could own a 3br/2ba house, two older cars, have a couple of kids who did sports or some type of extra curricular, and vacation for a week or so and that was normal. Many of those families had a FT working father and a part time working mom (if mom worked at all), and the kids got braces and had their own car and could work summers to pay for their own college tuition.

We live in a very different world now. College isn’t the key to a comfortable life anymore. So, they have lost faith in it. The problem isn’t (only) college. The problem is that billionaires aren’t paying their fair share of taxes. The problem is that wages are suppressed compared to COL with a greater emphasis on investor returns rather than on maintaining the fabric of society. We live in another time of robber barons.

[Sneezyone]

16 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think we’ve had a disintegration of the social contract. We operated under the promise that if we had skills we would be able to have a modest family life. Then we were told that we needed to be college educated. So, we went to do that. Then states took away subsidized tuition. We still took out loans believing that if we worked full time and paid our taxes we could own a modest home, have a kid or two who would be decently educated and kept safe in public schools and we could make it.

In the 1990s, the average middle class family could own a 3br/2ba house, two older cars, have a couple of kids who did sports or some type of extra curricular, and vacation for a week or so and that was normal. Many of those families had a FT working father and a part time working mom (if mom worked at all), and the kids got braces and had their own car and could work summers to pay for their own college tuition.

We live in a very different world now. College isn’t the key to a comfortable life anymore. So, they have lost faith in it. The problem isn’t (only) college. The problem is that billionaires aren’t paying their fair share of taxes. The problem is that wages are suppressed compared to COL with a greater emphasis on investor returns rather than on maintaining the fabric of society. We live in another time of robber barons.

Agreed but I would ratchet that back by a decade. The 80s, when greed was good, were the beginning of the dismantling. I don’t fault people for making the calculus that college isn’t worth it and yet those of means haven’t stopped sending their kids to college and well-paying employers haven’t stopped asking for college degrees and/or classroom-based credentials.

[Ginevra]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Agreed but I would ratchet that back by a decade. The 80s, when greed was good, were the beginning of the dismantling. I don’t fault people for making the calculus that college isn’t worth it and yet those of means haven’t stopped sending their kids to college and well-paying employers haven’t stopped asking for college degrees and/or classroom-based credentials.

Yes, exactly. 
 

I do think, though, that part of the backlash against college comes from a side of the aisle that does not want “free college” to be a selling point for a given political worldview. People who promoted that negative view of college were not about to withhold college degrees - even elite degrees - from their own kids; they just don’t want *voters* to want it. 
 

I can see it driving ideology and worldview only farther and farther apart. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I see one of the divides in my social circle revolving around whether a family can pony up the cash to cover college for their kids. Families who can are sending their kids, families who can’t are pausing and really considering whether taking on $80-100k in loans is feasible. The calculus has changed a bit. It’s hard to say a $50k/year job is worth it when chik FIL a is paying $23/hr here. ($50k is $24/hr).

[Sneezyone]

29 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Yes, exactly. 
 

I do think, though, that part of the backlash against college comes from a side of the aisle that does not want “free college” to be a selling point for a given political worldview. People who promoted that negative view of college were not about to withhold college degrees - even elite degrees - from their own kids; they just don’t want *voters* to want it. 
 

I can see it driving ideology and worldview only farther and farther apart. 

I don’t think ‘free college’ is a political worldview. I think it’s an attempt to restore the compact and ensure more public investment in higher education and youth in general. In reality, ‘free community college’ (read deeply subsidized) and sometimes four year university educations are available in large swaths of deeply conservative states at affordable rates for in-state students. Their legislators recognize, even if the gen pop doesn’t, that education is important for growth. Other states don’t have to make those same investments to achieve or attract an educated populace. To me: this is a matter of folks talking down about ed to voters while ensuring they have to spend as little of their own money as possible to give their kids a top shelf education. Vouchers are indicative of the same thing.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I see one of the divides in my social circle revolving around whether a family can pony up the cash to cover college for their kids. Families who can are sending their kids, families who can’t are pausing and really considering whether taking on $80-100k in loans is feasible. The calculus has changed a bit. It’s hard to say a $50k/year job is worth it when chik FIL a is paying $23/hr here. ($50k is $24/hr).

I also see a lot of people assuming that’s the price everywhere, based on what they’ve heard, without actually running the numbers for their specific family sitch. The reports, alone, are enough to prevent apps both admissions and FAFSA.

[rebcoola]

I think people are just starting to think more about the cost/benefit ratio.  In the 80's and 90's people just went to college because thats what you did no matter the cost!  I have friends ( millenials) who are buried in debt because they just chose a school they liked and took out the loans without any thought or guidance to consider there earning potential.  They wont be paying for their kids college they will still be paying for their own.

Yeah they are thinking twice about sending their kids off to build up a bunch of debt without a guarentee they will get a return on that investement.  

The whole system is broken and needs fixed

[Bootsie]

33 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

In the 1990s, the average middle class family could own a 3br/2ba house, two older cars, have a couple of kids who did sports or some type of extra curricular, and vacation for a week or so and that was normal. Many of those families had a FT working father and a part time working mom (if mom worked at all), and the kids got braces and had their own car and could work summers to pay for their own college tuition.

Is there any data to support this notion?  The percentage of Americans owning a home today exceeds the percentage in 1994.  The labor force participation of women in the US is about the same today (or even a little less) than it was in the 1990s.  

[Sneezyone]

Just now, rebcoola said:

I think people are just starting to think more about the cost/benefit ratio.  In the 80's and 90's people just went to college because thats what you did no matter the cost!  I have friends ( millenials) who are buried in debt because they just chose a school they liked and took out the loans without any thought or guidance to consider there earning potential.  They wont be paying for their kids college they will still be paying for their own.

Yeah they are thinking twice about sending their kids off to build up a bunch of debt without a guarentee they will get a return on that investement.  

The whole system is broken and needs fixed

As a victim of that era and VERY limited guidance, I think students and families need more information, guidance and support. My parents graduated when it was still possible to work and pay your own way at the state flagship.

They were thrilled when I made my choice but didn’t have two nickles to spare when I started. Post-secondary ed still pays off but folks aren’t being told to choose their schools/outlays wisely and not necessarily chase after/enroll in the best school you get into. 

I see parents on my black and brown college parents forum happily spending tens of thousands to attend schools with limited returns because they don’t know what they don’t know.

When I tell people that my kiddo can get an undergrad engineering degree from GTech without any of the stress of freshman admissions they’re floored. Don’t know what they don’t know.

[prairiewindmomma]

3 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Is there any data to support this notion?  The percentage of Americans owning a home today exceeds the percentage in 1994.  The labor force participation of women in the US is about the same today (or even a little less) than it was in the 1990s.  

House to income ratio re: affordability?

College tuition and medical prices: how they’ve actually moved compared to inflation

 

 

[Ginevra]

13 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

I think people are just starting to think more about the cost/benefit ratio.  In the 80's and 90's people just went to college because thats what you did no matter the cost!  I have friends ( millenials) who are buried in debt because they just chose a school they liked and took out the loans without any thought or guidance to consider there earning potential.  They wont be paying for their kids college they will still be paying for their own.

Yeah they are thinking twice about sending their kids off to build up a bunch of debt without a guarentee they will get a return on that investement.  

The whole system is broken and needs fixed

That’s true, but it can be short-sighted to think Nah on college because student loan debt is a problem. Anecdotally, what I have seen is parents who decide Nah for their kids without another plan, or without actually looking in to what is possible. 

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Ginevra said:

have found this sentiment alarming for several years now. And, as the wife of a tradesman, I find it excruciatingly annoying when people hold up Plumbers as some perfect example of a good median wage without a degree. Yes, it can pay well but it’s NOOOOT an easy job and nobody becomes a well-earning plumber without classroom hours, tests and thousands of hours under apprenticeship. Not to mention what carrying cast iron tubs up three flights of stairs does to a worker’s back, shoulders and knees. The article points out too that Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts only 10,000 new plumbing jobs will open up in the US between now and 2031. 

I just want to say that I WISH that I heard more of this perspective out there.   The trades are great and come with no student loans, but they aren’t cost free.  You pay with your body.  
 

As to the bolded, so many people seem to both valorize and look down on the trades in the same breath, when they are sure that their child with no reading or math skills can just go be a master plumber or electrician as if it takes no intelligence or effort whatsoever.  It’s always sounds so dismissive to me.  

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

That’s true, but it can be short-sighted to think Nah on college because student loan debt is a problem. Anecdotally, what I have seen is parents who decide Nah for their kids without another plan, or without actually looking in to what is possible. 

I see this too, mostly among those for whom college (read as post-secondary ed) would be hugely beneficial, affordable, and achievable. So much wasted talent. It ends up sounding like sour grapes even tho it’s rooted in the erosion of the social compact.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

think we’ve had a disintegration of the social contract.

I was thinking about that this weekend, listening to someone with a college degree and a good job complain that UPS drivers make as much money as him.   I reminded him that supply and demand come into play with labor too.  There are more people with college degrees in engineering than people willing to deliver my Amazon packages, so the delivery driver gets a boost in pay.  

But a college graduate  is “supposed” to make more than a delivery driver, it upsets the apple cart when that’s not true.   It breaks part of the social contract.  

Edited September 7, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Meriwether]

I have three kids doing full time college right now, but one is DE. I thought we would send all of ours to college, and it ought to be easier for the younger two who would be going one at a time. Right now I'm not sure if my third will do more than an AD and I am not 100% my 4th will go at all. We are making other plans that she may get caught up in.

I am not anti-college, but I do think fewer kids ought to go including maybe a couple of mine. It isn't that I think more kids ought to be plumbers. I have a high respect for trades. But the biggest shift I'd want to see is businesses not requiring a degree for so many jobs. Many times a degree just isn't necessary.

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

I have three kids doing full time college right now, but one is DE. I thought we would send all of ours to college, and it ought to be easier for the younger two who would be going one at a time. Right now I'm not sure if my third will do more than an AD and I am not 100% my 4th will go at all. We are making other plans that she may get caught up in.

I am not anti-college, but I do think fewer kids ought to go including maybe a couple of mine. It isn't that I think more kids ought to be plumbers. I have a high respect for trades. But the biggest shift I'd want to see is businesses not requiring a degree for so many jobs. Many times a degree just isn't necessary.

ITA with the bolded. The work I do requires it for entry level employees in this field and it’s needed. Srsly. I don’t want to have to explain organizational change models/processes in OJT (ain’t nobody got time for that) but smart, thoughtful people could start with us as admin. assistants and grow in subject matter expertise over time b/c we multitask. Kinda like the other thread? TIME/experience OR ED. Either works.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Sneezyone

[rebcoola]

43 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

That’s true, but it can be short-sighted to think Nah on college because student loan debt is a problem. Anecdotally, what I have seen is parents who decide Nah for their kids without another plan, or without actually looking in to what is possible. 

Idk thats right out refusing college for their  but definitely looking into other options.   In general at 40 in our circle of friends the trades people are doing better than those with higher degrees. Idk if that will change as we get older

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

Idk thats right out refusing college for their  but definitely looking into other options.   In general at 40 in our circle of friends the trades people are doing better than those with higher degrees. Idk if that will change as we get older

It likely will. People who do manual labor typically have to retire earlier. Full SS isn’t available until age 67 for todays workers. Some advocate pushing that to 70. The goal is for manual laborers and those with health issues to die before receipt. ETA: owners may have some cushion but workers? No.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Sneezyone

[prairiewindmomma]

7 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

Idk thats right out refusing college for their  but definitely looking into other options.   In general at 40 in our circle of friends the trades people are doing better than those with higher degrees. Idk if that will change as we get older

Are your friends business owners that can hire younger workers? This seems to be the hinge point. Bodies wear out, but established businesses tend to live on if you are clearing enough to pay workers other than you.

[fairfarmhand]

and then we get to the place of "what does a high school diploma mean anymore?" and in many places it means remarkably little. 

Businesses often began asking for college degrees because high school diplomas didn't mean as much any more. But many jobs don't necessarily need the college degree for the work itself. 

I've seen it so many times on the job boards that I frequent. 

The job description consists of things that I already do and do very well. But I don't apply because I don't have the college degree and that's a requirement. 

I think many people just don't know what to do. The crushing student loan debt. The students with degrees that are not necessarily very marketable. The very real cost of living increases.

I know so many people who have this idealized mindset that their kids will get married fairly young, the man will have a job, the girl will start having babies and homeschooling them. Of course, they say, money will be tight, but with cooking from scratch and thrifting, they can make it. 

These people don't have kids launched yet. I do. And just between rent increases and gas increases and grocery increases, even dual income young couples are struggling to meet the necessities. And these are young people who are ALREADY living very simply. Thrift stores, no vacations, used cars ,everything I did when I was starting out, and they are still not able to save up for a down payment. 

I'm thinking get those kids some marketable skills. Boys AND GIRLS. They will need them. Whether that includes college or not.  Do some homework. Research who's hiring, where the needs are. Help your kids choose something that works for them. They will likely need some sort of training. That means that they'll need to learn to read well, communicate well. Plumbers HAVE TO DO MATH  if they want to own a business. So do carpenters. And what is the plan if someone gets injured at the ripe old age of 30? 

[prairiewindmomma]

As a total aside, I think it’s worth looking at how bodies fail in any given profession. Dentists struggle with low back pain and neck pain. Repetitive stress injury is an issue in many, many fields…not just blue collar ones.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

and then we get to the place of "what does a high school diploma mean anymore?" and in many places it means remarkably little. 

Businesses often began asking for college degrees because high school diplomas didn't mean as much any more. But many jobs don't necessarily need the college degree for the work itself. 

I've seen it so many times on the job boards that I frequent. 

The job description consists of things that I already do and do very well. But I don't apply because I don't have the college degree and that's a requirement. 

I think many people just don't know what to do. The crushing student loan debt. The students with degrees that are not necessarily very marketable. The very real cost of living increases.

I know so many people who have this idealized mindset that their kids will get married fairly young, the man will have a job, the girl will start having babies and homeschooling them. Of course, they say, money will be tight, but with cooking from scratch and thrifting, they can make it. 

These people don't have kids launched yet. I do. And just between rent increases and gas increases and grocery increases, even dual income young couples are struggling to meet the necessities. And these are young people who are ALREADY living very simply. Thrift stores, no vacations, used cars ,everything I did when I was starting out, and they are still not able to save up for a down payment. 

I'm thinking get those kids some marketable skills. Boys AND GIRLS. They will need them. Whether that includes college or not.  Do some homework. Research who's hiring, where the needs are. Help your kids choose something that works for them. They will likely need some sort of training. That means that they'll need to learn to read well, communicate well. Plumbers HAVE TO DO MATH  if they want to own a business. So do carpenters. And what is the plan if someone gets injured at the ripe old age of 30? 

Can I push back on the bolded a little? I am beginning to conceptualize this in very different ways. I think employers started asking for degrees (coincidentally, accidentally, for no reason?) in the 70s when the employee pool became more diverse (to include women) and a degree necessarily limited the hiring pool in ways that fit hiring preferences. This preceded the higher ed cost issues.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I was thinking about this weekend, listening to someone with a college degree and a good job complain that UPS drivers make as much money as him.   I reminded him that supply and demand come into play with labor too.  There are more people with college degrees in engineering than people willing to deliver my Amazon packages, so the delivery driver gets a boost in pay.  

But a college graduate  is “supposed” to make more than a delivery driver, it upsets the apple cart when that’s not true.   It breaks part of the social contract.  

The reality is that the engineer will make more in the long run because the driver, in their physical prime, will eventually break down.

[rebcoola]

21 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It likely will. People who do manual labor typically have to retire earlier. Full SS isn’t available until age 67 for todays workers. Some advocate pushing that to 70. The goal is for manual laborers and those with health issues to die before receipt. ETA: owners may have some cushion but workers? No.

A few are true laborers but most work in the nuclear field and can work what is essentially a desk job as they get older.  

[Sneezyone]

Just now, rebcoola said:

A few are true laborers but most work in the nuclear field and can work what is essentially a desk job as they get older.  

Do you consider nukes manual labor? I don’t. The training in the military leads to lucrative, non-manual work, for life. It’s not like you can touch the stuff.

[Clarita]

Can't read the article, still saying my 2 cents.

What it costs to get it in the US currently is not worth it for a lot of occupations. Although it's also hard to say it's beneficial sometimes because of the number of adults I meet that say things like I never use the things I learned in college. I definitely used and I feel like I still use my college education (even though I'm SAHM), so I think my own college education is beneficial.  I wonder about that point of view of I never used the things I learned in college crowd. 

[rebcoola]

19 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Do you consider nukes manual labor? I don’t. The training in the military leads to lucrative, non-manual work, for life. It’s not like you can touch the stuff.

Not the Reactor Operators but they are trade workers in the the Equipment operators which is the entry level for non degreed people and enlisted miltary are manual laborers.  You can move up to the reactor operator positions without a degree or military training.  Their are also a lot more jobs out at the site most you can start with a certficate from the local community college. Some are more laborer based than others but they get retirement after 25 years.

Edited September 7, 2023 by rebcoola

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

A few are true laborers but most work in the nuclear field and can work what is essentially a desk job as they get older.  

I always wonder about supply and demand with those desk jobs.  Is there a 1:1 ratio of workers who want to move to the desk and desk jobs available? 

Not you specifically.  It's just a thing you hear.  That trades people can just open their own business, or work their way up to be foreman or whatever.  But there isn't enough of the more physically comfortable jobs to supply one for every worker that wants to move into that.  It seems like this way of thinking leaves people out in the cold by necessity to avoid the reality that there are 15 workers for every cushy job they "could" move into, which is pretty fierce competition and leaves some people with literally nothing.  Again, not pointed at you, just in general as a jumping off point.  

[Grace Hopper]

3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think we’ve had a disintegration of the social contract. We operated under the promise that if we had skills we would be able to have a modest family life. Then we were told that we needed to be college educated. So, we went to do that. Then states took away subsidized tuition. We still took out loans believing that if we worked full time and paid our taxes we could own a modest home, have a kid or two who would be decently educated and kept safe in public schools and we could make it.

In the 1990s, the average middle class family could own a 3br/2ba house, two older cars, have a couple of kids who did sports or some type of extra curricular, and vacation for a week or so and that was normal. Many of those families had a FT working father and a part time working mom (if mom worked at all), and the kids got braces and had their own car and could work summers to pay for their own college tuition.

We live in a very different world now. College isn’t the key to a comfortable life anymore. So, they have lost faith in it. The problem isn’t (only) college. The problem is that billionaires aren’t paying their fair share of taxes. The problem is that wages are suppressed compared to COL with a greater emphasis on investor returns rather than on maintaining the fabric of society. We live in another time of robber barons.

A corporate oligarchy. That’s where we find ourselves, whether folks choose to see it or not. 
 

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

listening to someone with a college degree and a good job complain that UPS drivers make as much money as him.  

Wait until he learns about commercial hvac! 😄

[DawnM]

6 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 

In the 1990s, the average middle class family could own a 3br/2ba house, two older cars, have a couple of kids who did sports or some type of extra curricular, and vacation for a week or so and that was normal. Many of those families had a FT working father and a part time working mom (if mom worked at all), and the kids got braces and had their own car and could work summers to pay for their own college tuition.

 

This made me curious.   We bought our first house in 1998 in Southern CA.   We paid $142,000 for it.   That was actually considered low for the house.   It was 1,400 sq. ft. and maybe 1/4 of an acre, although it backed into the canyon and seemed bigger.

Anyway, taking stats from 1995

Average home: $133,900

Median salary: $34,000

2022

Average home: $348,000

Median Salary: $67,000

Someone else can do the math percentages on that.   

 

[Clarita]

4 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Someone else can do the math percentages on that.   

Salary went up a touch under 2x and the housing price went up 2.6x.

[Ausmumof3]

6 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

As a total aside, I think it’s worth looking at how bodies fail in any given profession. Dentists struggle with low back pain and neck pain. Repetitive stress injury is an issue in many, many fields…not just blue collar ones.

This is very true. Two guys I know have stuffed backs. One is a business owner and has had to run his business from lying flat on his back for months. The other was a trade and was able to retrain as a manual arts teacher eventually. 
 

Typing is injury prone. SSOs (teachers aides) often seem to get injured by either violent kids or lifting. Eye problems can happen to anyone.

[Ginevra]

7 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I just want to say that I WISH that I heard more of this perspective out there.   The trades are great and come with no student loans, but they aren’t cost free.  You pay with your body.  
 

As to the bolded, so many people seem to both valorize and look down on the trades in the same breath, when they are sure that their child with no reading or math skills can just go be a master plumber or electrician as if it takes no intelligence or effort whatsoever.  It’s always sounds so dismissive to me.  

100%! And if they are going to own their own trades business, they also need people skills and some concept of business management (or else marry someone who can do that part for them ;)). 

[Ginevra]

6 hours ago, Clarita said:

Can't read the article, still saying my 2 cents.

What it costs to get it in the US currently is not worth it for a lot of occupations. Although it's also hard to say it's beneficial sometimes because of the number of adults I meet that say things like I never use the things I learned in college. I definitely used and I feel like I still use my college education (even though I'm SAHM), so I think my own college education is beneficial.  I wonder about that point of view of I never used the things I learned in college crowd. 

I agree with this. Also, sometimes people don’t really understand the benefits they gained from a college degree because they are surrounded by others with degrees. They don’t realize what they learned and the connections they had because they didn’t have to try to survive without it. 

[Ausmumof3]

7 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I always wonder about supply and demand with those desk jobs.  Is there a 1:1 ratio of workers who want to move to the desk and desk jobs available? 

Not you specifically.  It's just a thing you hear.  That trades people can just open their own business, or work their way up to be foreman or whatever.  But there isn't enough of the more physically comfortable jobs to supply one for every worker that wants to move into that.  It seems like this way of thinking leaves people out in the cold by necessity to avoid the reality that there are 15 workers for every cushy job they "could" move into, which is pretty fierce competition and leaves some people with literally nothing.  Again, not pointed at you, just in general as a jumping off point.  

That’s true but the ratio is not improved by everyone wanting to go to college and directly into a desk job either. Like I think the old model of the young do physical jobs and the older manage and administrate maybe is better just in terms of healthy functioning (though maybe not in other ways)

[chiguirre]

The article didn't mention Covid, but I think it plays a bigger role than it's being credited with. My dd was so sick of lockdown and online everything (not just classes, but Model UN, Asia Society camps, violin lessons). It ruined her last two years of high school and the thought of going off to college and maybe having to lockdown again definitely weighted the scales in favor of enlisting. She's gotten what she wanted, a real job, sailing on a big ship, visiting a lot of ports and living all over the place in her two years of Navy life. Now she's ready to go back to school. That means finishing her degree online at a highly ranked public university, but I don't think she regrets missing the freshman experience.

[Heartstrings]

8 hours ago, katilac said:

Wait until he learns about commercial hvac! 😄

I think there is a difference in perception of skilled vs. unskilled.  Commercial HVAC is skilled so that’s ok that they make good money.  Delivery driver is seen as unskilled so its perceived as deserving poverty wages, only slightly better than McDonalds.  

Edited September 7, 2023 by Heartstrings

[El...]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

I think there is a difference in perception of skilled vs. unskilled.  Commercial HVAC is skilled so that’s ok that they make good money.  Delivery driver is seen as unskilled so its perceived as deserving poverty wages, only slightly better than McDonalds.  

Yes. The hierarchical insistence is... morally interesting. It smacks of a child's "That's not fair!" 

[livetoread]

Aren't the higher paid delivery drivers like UPS unionized? 

 

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, livetoread said:

Aren't the higher paid delivery drivers like UPS unionized? 

 

Yes, but so many people are conditioned to think of unions as bad or stupid, the fact that unions result in higher pay causes to much cognitive dissonance.   It’s just “not fair” and “stupid”.   

[Soror]

6 hours ago, DawnM said:

This made me curious.   We bought our first house in 1998 in Southern CA.   We paid $142,000 for it.   That was actually considered low for the house.   It was 1,400 sq. ft. and maybe 1/4 of an acre, although it backed into the canyon and seemed bigger.

Anyway, taking stats from 1995

Average home: $133,900

Median salary: $34,000

2022

Average home: $348,000

Median Salary: $67,000

Someone else can do the math percentages on that.   

 

 

6 hours ago, Clarita said:

Salary went up a touch under 2x and the housing price went up 2.6x.

The average home size has also increased as well as the amenities in the home.

[fairfarmhand]

52 minutes ago, Soror said:

 

The average home size has also increased as well as the amenities in the home.

And That's really frustrating. My oldest dd25 and her dh would love to find a 1200 square foot house with 1 or 1.5 baths and a small yard. They don't want granite countertops (mostly the cost of that kind of thing) fancy floors, built ins or anything extravagant. They want a basic starter home. And apparently they don't exist. 

[SKL]

I read a lot of "good old days" in some of the above posts.

I don't know what it means to have faith in the value of a college degree.  There's nothing new about the fact that just getting a degree doesn't guarantee a high-salary job.  Nor about the recognition that some decent jobs don't require 4 years of academics (of which at least two years are fluff as far as most jobs are concerned).  Evil capitalists don't create this reality.  It is what it is.

If someone is going to spend a lot of hard-earned money on a college degree, it should be a degree that is designed to build value-adding skills.  And the student needs the interest and aptitude to actually apply those skills in a job.  Not everyone is wired for that.  Capitalists didn't create that reality either.

Otherwise, if you aren't rich, choose more affordable options and work your butt off like humans always have.  If you are rich, know that an expensive education is a luxury, not an enhanced meal ticket.  Nobody actually needs that.

The "compact" people are referencing is BS IMO.  Someone point me to the place in US history where this promise was made.

[Lady Florida.]

Without getting political I will say that I'd have little confidence in the value of any college degree coming from my state these days.

[prairiewindmomma]

As an aside on the social compact, with global data: https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/social-sector/our-insights/the-social-contract-in-the-21st-century

[Corraleno]

7 hours ago, DawnM said:

This made me curious.   We bought our first house in 1998 in Southern CA.   We paid $142,000 for it.   That was actually considered low for the house.   It was 1,400 sq. ft. and maybe 1/4 of an acre, although it backed into the canyon and seemed bigger.

Anyway, taking stats from 1995

Average home: $133,900

Median salary: $34,000

2022

Average home: $348,000

Median Salary: $67,000

Someone else can do the math percentages on that.   

 

And averages disguise the fact that there are often huge increases in more desirable areas, where the jobs are, and much smaller increases in less desirable areas with fewer jobs. I live in one of the nicer areas on the outskirts of a major metro (relatively low crime, good schools, tons of shopping and amenities, etc.) and houses that sold for $150,000 in the 90s are now $650,000 to $750,000. Here is the sales history for a really ordinary, 2000 sq' split-level house in my neighborhood, built in the 1970s and partially updated around 15 yrs ago:
2003: sold for $175,000
2015: sold for $355,000
2022: sold for $740,000

The cheapest single family home currently for sale in my entire city is a tiny 800 sq' 2BR/1BA bungalow with a microscopic un-updated kitchen listed for $440,000. The next cheapest is an 1100 sq' house built in the 60s with no updates (still has the original 1960s orange plywood cabinets and green laminate countertops), listed for $480,000. Those houses would have been worth $100,000 to $120,000 in the 90s, so prices have literally quadrupled. Even condos that would cost $100,000 in the 90s are selling for $400,000 or more — and then there are HOA fees on top of the mortgage.

 

 

[Heartstrings]

Housing costs especially are crazy.  You can’t find anything to rent in my town less than $1500.   That’s for a crappy one bedroom apartment! I don’t live anywhere desirable!  I’m in the middle of nowhere, in a town no one wants to live in, with almost no good jobs and my young adult can’t move out because a 1 bedroom apartment costs as much as my mortgage that took us decades to work up being able to afford.  

Edited September 7, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Bootsie]

14 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

House to income ratio re: affordability?

College tuition and medical prices: how they’ve actually moved compared to inflation

 

 

These statistics would not tell us anything about how the average middle class family was living in 1995--what type of home they were living in and whether they owned it., whether they vacationed for a week, whether their kids had a car, and whehter mom worked full-time or part-time.  I am questioning whether the picture of how the average lived in 1995 is accurate.  Moreover, I do not think that has been the typical lifestyle of middleclass families historically.  Although it may have appeared "normal" to some people, and is their point of reference, the question is whether that is an truly accurate point of reference as what is "normal".  

And, while college tuition and medical prices have increased faster than the rate of inflation in the past few decades, that means that other items that the average family purchases have moved lass than inflation.  Looking at the rise in prices in a couple of areas does not point to a rise in the cost of living above that of inflation.