Loneliness epidemic

[Terabith]

8 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Just musing.

I wonder if loneliness is really more prevalent than it used to be, or if we are just more self-analytical and aware of it? (and post it all in the web!) Are we seeing the past with too-rosy glasses?  Are people really any different than they were 50, 200, or 1500 years ago? The details of culture change and technology certainly does, but human nature does not. I think loneliness is part of the human condition in this fallen world.
 

Some of us have a bigger share of this struggle than others and some of us have more ability to cope than others, but we all experience it to some degree.
 

Agreeing with pp that cultural patterns of community and gathering (or lack thereof) can affect it, but that many people are very lonely despite having decent social skills and people to be with. It’s an internal thing. 
 

I remember times when I desperately longed for a “kindred spirit” sort of friend, and didn’t have one. I think many people feel un-understood and alone despite having basically healthy family and work/school/community relationships. 

Sociologists have been studying loneliness since at least the mid 1800s, and people are definitely lonelier than they were pre mid 1990s. 

[Scarlett]

I don’t think loneliness has to do with not being able to find like minded people. I see it more as everyone is stressed to the max with work and bills and there is literally almost no time for friendships. 
 

I have a lot of friends who share my beliefs and values and we do find it difficult to find time for each other. 

[Frances]

25 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Sociologists have been studying loneliness since at least the mid 1800s, and people are definitely lonelier than they were pre mid 1990s. 

This makes sense to me, as it seems that previously people relied much more on each other for help with large tasks and projects. Also, there has definitely been a decrease in church attendance, sports leagues, and organizations like the Masons, VFW, etc that brought people together.

When we first moved to our city many years ago we joined a Methodist church mainly as a way to meet people and get involved with community service. While we eventually stopped attending when all of us stopped believing, it was a great way to quickly connect with others.
 

We are fortunate to live in a very well connected historic neighborhood that has a long tradition of interaction and support, both formal and informal. It’s almost like living in the tiny town I grew up in, but with the benefits of a much larger city. The only downside is that the neighborhood is not very diverse with the majority being white, upper middle class, and left leaning.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Frances

[Frances]

20 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t think loneliness has to do with not being able to find like minded people. I see it more as everyone is stressed to the max with work and bills and there is literally almost no time for friendships. 
 

I have a lot of friends who share my beliefs and values and we do find it difficult to find time for each other. 

At least for me, I can’t agree. The times in my life when I’ve been lonely had nothing to do with not having time for friendships due to being stressed about work and bills. It had nothing to do with time at all. Also, many cultures where extreme poverty is the norm have very strong and cohesive social bonds.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Frances

[Frances]

21 hours ago, wintermom said:

Maybe so, but merciful heaven, it sure helps one sleep at night and then be able to talk non-jibberish to others! 😅

While it may have a macro effect, we have central AC, but still eat outside on our front porch 2-3 times per day for half the year and regularly interact with our neighbors because of it. Well that and walking the dog. We could eat instead in our more private backyard which is next to the kitchen, but prefer the front porch.

But I’m with you. I’m very thankful for central AC when it comes to sleeping.

[Halftime Hope]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:26 PM, fairfarmhand said:

Boundaries are fine. But many people are not willing to share spaces with those who are the *others* 

this is an unhealthy use of boundaries.

he’s a Democrat/Republican? Guess he’s not welcome on the bowling team.

she’s pro/anti LGBTQ? Humph. Can’t welcome her into the quilters club!

they are pro-life/pro-choice? There’s no way I can play cards with them next week. 
 

the polarization over so many issues is awful. Folks won’t talk to or have relationships with people who don’t see eye to eye on stuff. This mindset is so isolating.

 

My life would be less rich if I cut out those who I don't agree with on one or another issue, including family.

[Halftime Hope]

On 5/6/2023 at 7:46 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

I think we have unrealistic ideas about what a house should look like. It hit me a few years ago that other peoples's real houses were not neater than our house. 

This stuff (making friends, building community, etc) is just really hard. I recently met someone at temple. Then I ran into her at Target the next day. We chatted and exchanged telephone numbers. We're now in that awkward early stages of a relationship. I've texted her asking if she's going to temple and she's done the same. We've said something about meeting for coffee. I think - should I text her and ask to meet? But then I think - oh, she's too busy. She's probably thinking the exact same thing. 

 

"I'd love to have a cup of coffee with you when you have the time. When you're available, let me know, and I'll treat." ??

[Terabith]

43 minutes ago, Frances said:

While it may have a macro effect, we have central AC, but still eat outside on our front porch 2-3 times per day for half the year and regularly interact with our neighbors because of it. Well that and walking the dog. We could eat instead in our more private backyard which is next to the kitchen, but prefer the front porch.

But I’m with you. I’m very thankful for central AC when it comes to sleeping.

I’m not saying it’s bad. I LOVE air conditioning. But it’s one of the reasons for increased loneliness that’s been pinpointed by sociologists.  
 

I kinda wonder what my life would have been like if I’d accepted the Ph.D program in sociology at Johns Hopkins sometimes.  

[FreyaO]

I've lived in other countries, where spaces - and time - to hang out is an integral part of life. Usually centered around food, coffee or drinks. But relaxed, lengthy consumption of food, coffee or drinks. The car dependency, suburban sprawl, and lack of a physical "square" in the US definitely makes a difference.

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

At least for me, I can’t agree. The times in my life when I’ve been lonely had nothing to do with not having time for friendships due to being stressed about work and bills. It had nothing to do with time at all. Also, many cultures where extreme poverty is the norm have very strong and cohesive social bonds.

So what caused your loneliness?

[Terabith]

Prior to the 2016 election, I had a pretty diverse in real life friend group, with a mixture of friends of both major political parties and a pretty wide spectrum of religiosity.  Being (what is here perceived) as politically pretty liberal while being very religious led to a pretty wide spectrum of interactions.  I had friends that I disagreed vociferously with on a wide variety of topics, but we were most of the time respectful of each other.  

After the 2016 election though, I was cut off HARD by all of my politically conservative former friends.  It was very challenging and very depressing.  

[kirstenhill]

3 hours ago, Frances said:

At least for me, I can’t agree. The times in my life when I’ve been lonely had nothing to do with not having time for friendships due to being stressed about work and bills. It had nothing to do with time at all. Also, many cultures where extreme poverty is the norm have very strong and cohesive social bonds.

I agree with this, for my experience too at least.  The season in life I felt the most lonely was when all my kids were 10 and under, my husband was working long hours but we also struggled to find babysitters for date nights, homeschool community was hit-or-miss in terms of making friends, we didn't always feel like we were connecting well with people in our church.   It also didn't help that I had a friend I really wanted to be closer with...But ultimately I wasn't her bff, and her bff was who she wanted to do more with socially (and, thanks so social media, I knew she actually was spending time and doing lots of fun things with her bff and posting about it).  I really wanted a bff and I was sad that I wasn't finding one.  

I think what helped a lot was getting a do-over by moving to a new community, having my kids get older (and now DH and I can and do get out more together whether it is for dinner out or just to take a walk alone around the neighborhood), and we've found different kinds of friendships...board gaming friends, friends we trade dinner nights with at each other's houses, etc.  As our kids are older, there is so much less pressure for couples we are friends with to be a "perfect fit" for our family in terms of all the kids wanting to be friends.  Our kids can each choose to come or not if we are going to a friend's house, or we can plan an 8pm game night after friends' kids are in bed.  

I do feel like I am the kind of person who is actively looking to building community and relationships - one couple we are friends with, we basically became friends after I really put myself out there and invited them over for dinner when they were new to town and we met in a very tangential way.  It turned out we just really clicked.   I feel more prepared to build community now than when I was a frazzled mother of younger kids.

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've been a part of in-person communities that were not like-minded and there was always a level of fear. Would someone rat you out to priest? Will you be excluded because you aren't the right kind of person? 

I totally get this. That was the group dynamic I was a part of this past weekend. MY husband and I definitely had feelings of I don't want to go back if that group dynamic is what it's going to be. 

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

As a thought experiment - are there in-person communities in the USA today where people have fundamental disagreements about important things where all POVs are equally respected? Families, I guess. But what about communities that you decide to belong to and that are not work related? I can't think of an example. 

I've had some successes in this in groups where we may have originally met as part of some official community. Then, we splinter off into our own thing. When it's our own thing and at some point we have a discussion about "how it's so great that we are all different people and still can be friends...", those groups I've had luck where we can disagreements and feel safe.  

[frogger]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

The times when I've felt the most lonely have been when I was the most online. 

I do think this is an issue.  In a way you see others but you aren't there. You are "outside" of the posted activies, especially group photos of activities. For me at least.

 

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

It was actually hard for me when I began having in person conversations again after the pandemic. If I say what I think will someone tell me I'm a moron? 

I think people are nastier online. I think they are nastier in cars. The further you remove the real human the nastier they become. People who would be polite in a room or overlook or just say excuse me if someone was standing in their way will be a total jerk in a car. 

I also think if people are anonymous they are even worse. They become a Mr. Hyde and if they let themselves follow their Mr. Hyde tendencies they lose all sense of decency.   I stay anonymous here but mostly because I mention my children and feel that I should protect them, especially talking of one's disabilities that he may not like.  If no one knows you, you don't have that social cost to letting lose and being a jerk though and I am well aware I could become a Mr. Hyde here.

I think the practice online and getting pelted with rudeness online did affect our IRL relations.

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've been a part of in-person communities that were not like-minded and there was always a level of fear. Would someone rat you out to priest? Will you be excluded because you aren't the right kind of person? 

As a thought experiment - are there in-person communities in the USA today where people have fundamental disagreements about important things where all POVs are equally respected? Families, I guess. But what about communities that you decide to belong to and that are not work related? I can't think of an example. 

 

I would say there are few. I have groups where everyone assumes I am a conservative and others where everyone assumes I'm a liberal. I find it is just that we all think nice people think like us and assume they can't possibly have a good reason to think otherwise therefore everyone here is like me. I think you only need about 55% maybe up to 65% of a group to think one way or the other about any one topic before the other part just gets quieter. I would say this occurs where ever I am. As I get to know people more I find out they aren't in complete alignment with the louder people but they feel like outsiders so they keep quiet. Of course, really obnoxious groups lose those mixed viewpoints entirily probably. I haven't been involved in extremist type groups since I have zero interest in them. 

 

[Frances]

5 hours ago, Scarlett said:

So what caused your loneliness?

Not finding a group where I fit, lack of self confidence, shyness, a somewhat difficult child who often didn’t fit in, etc. Things are very different now for which I’m quite thankful.

[regentrude]

15 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t think loneliness has to do with not being able to find like minded people. I see it more as everyone is stressed to the max with work and bills and there is literally almost no time for friendships.

That was not my experience. There have been periods in my life where I have felt extremely lonely, despite having time for friendships. It had all to do with not fitting in with any of the groups I was part of, with an intense feeling of not belonging anywhere.
At work, I was a part-time adjunct who had little in common with my full-time research colleagues. In the homeschooling group, I  was the only mom who had a regular job, and my academic standards were completely different from the other parents. In choir I was the only older person who was not a student. And so on. It took 8-10 years after my immigration to feel a sense of belonging and to have built a circle of friends.

The internal feeling of being disconnected from others outweighs, at least for me, all scheduling issues. I am much busier these days with job and all the events I organize, but I have a few good friends and a "tribe" that gives me a sense of community.

ETA: I was the loneliest as a SAHM with many hours to fill each day. It got much better once I went back to work and had, objectively, much less time.

Edited May 9, 2023 by regentrude

[regentrude]

11 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

The times when I've felt the most lonely have been when I was the most online.

I have noticed that for me too; however, the causality (for me) is the other way around: when I feel lonely, I am desperate for connection and spend more time online, engaging with people that way. When I have enough in-person stimulation, I spend much less time online.
I have observed this pattern for many years.

[marbel]

On 5/7/2023 at 11:48 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

Every few weeks some story gets published about how young women won't date men who voted for a certain political candidate. I would never date someone who voted for that candidate. That makes people defensive, I know I voted for that candidate but I respect you! That's not how it works. Don't expect me to consider you a friend if you are trying to advance policies that hurt me and the people I love. 

You haven't known anyone who reluctantly voted for a candidate as the "lesser of two evils?" Many many people I know struggled in the last election. They didn't whole-heartedly accept either candidate's position. It's not like everyone was enthusiastic about the candidate they ended up voting for.  People have different views on voting third party, or writing in, or skipping the vote at all.  Most - not all - people do the best they can with what they've got. 

My parents were of different political parties. My father used to joke that they cancelled out each other's vote. I think when they were first married they had similar views, but my mother's changed over time. They didn't discuss it much and they certainly didn't fight over it or divorce over it. 

Now if someone had strong political opinions that were very different from mine, I probably wouldn't get involved with them. But I don't know that I would refuse simply based on what candidate they voted for in one election. 

And how do people find that out, anyway? Do people ask when a date is proposed?  "Hey, want to go grab dinner one night this week?" "Let me think about it. Who did you vote for in the last election?" "****" "Oh hell no I'm not going out with you."  Is that how it works? I don't even tell my family who I vote for. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by marbel

[regentrude]

30 minutes ago, marbel said:

And how do people find that out, anyway?... I don't even tell my family who I vote for. 

I assume you also don't put a giant flag with the candidate's name on your truck, don't cover the entire side of your house with the candidate's name, don't wear T shirts and baseball caps that shout political views.... 

With a lot of folks here, it's impossible NOT to know how they voted.  Greetings from rural Midwest. 

Eta: and from the way they make sure their opinion is in your face, you can bet that they voted *enthusiastically*.

Edited May 9, 2023 by regentrude

[Frances]

49 minutes ago, marbel said:

My parents were of different political parties. My father used to joke that they cancelled out each other's vote. I think when they were first married they had similar views, but my mother's changed over time. They didn't discuss it much and they certainly didn't fight over it or divorce over it. 

Personally I think there is a profound difference between the R presidential candidates prior to 2016 and since 2016, so I don’t really think the situation now is remotely comparable to back when your parents belonged to different political parties. Many prominent Rs did not vote for their party’s candidate in either 2016 or 2020. I know several lifelong Rs who left the part after the 2016 election. Supporting someone who instigated an insurrection due to repeated lies about election fraud, among multiple other serious lies, is definitely something new in my lifetime. 
 

As for someone voting for the “lesser of two evils”, I have to say I struggle to understand where their line in the sand is for what a candidate would have to do that they wouldn’t vote along party lines. Putting our democracy at risk and lying on an epic and unprecedented scale seems just fine with a scary proportion of our country. 
 

And just to put my comments above in context, my only child is a Republican. But he does have a line in the sand and didn’t cross it in 2016 or 2020. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Frances

[Heartstrings]

31 minutes ago, marbel said:

You haven't known anyone who reluctantly voted for a candidate as the "lesser of two evils?" Many many people I know struggled in the last election. They didn't whole-heartedly accept either candidate's position. It's not like everyone was enthusiastic about the candidate they ended up voting for.  People have different views on voting third party, or writing in, or skipping the vote at all.  Most - not all - people do the best they can with what they've got. 

My parents were of different political parties. My father used to joke that they cancelled out each other's vote. I think when they were first married they had similar views, but my mother's changed over time. They didn't discuss it much and they certainly didn't fight over it or divorce over it. 

Now if someone had strong political opinions that were very different from mine, I probably wouldn't get involved with them. But I don't know that I would refuse simply based on what candidate they voted for in one election. 

And how do people find that out, anyway? Do people ask when a date is proposed?  "Hey, want to go grab dinner one night this week?" "Let me think about it. Who did you vote for in the last election?" "****" "Oh hell no I'm not going out with you."  Is that how it works? I don't even tell my family who I vote for. 

A whole lot of people will make little comments that let you know.  “Excuse me, I’m going to restroom, hope no *men* are in there”.   “Well, you know the schools all have litter boxes nowadays”.  “Oh, last weekend it was so hot, at the pride parade”. 
 

Or will have something on Facebook.   Maga flags, thin blue line, Save the Children, Look at Biden’s ear, rainbow flags.  
 

I don’t find it that hard to find out, most people aren’t shy.  That may be because everyone where I am assumes everyone else agrees with them so they are out and proud about it.  

Edited May 9, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Heartstrings]

At a homeschool group meeting last month one of the moms was talking about her kids dating and said …”as long they bring home <insert preferred political party>“.  
 

so…it’s pretty obvious.   

Edited May 9, 2023 by Heartstrings
Trying to be less political

[marbel]

Re: other people's political leanings being obvious: that hasn't been my experience, but maybe it's the people I tend to run with. Most people I know don't have bumper stickers on their cars, don't have wear political shirts or caps... I don't even see much of that when I'm out and about.  So. 🤷‍♂️

ETA: Oh and I do see political signs in yards, but those are generally gone after the election, and it's not like I'm going to remember who had whose sign on their lawn.  People who leave them up annoy me no matter what party/candidate they supported, so there's that. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by marbel

[Jean in Newcastle]

12 minutes ago, marbel said:

Re: other people's political leanings being obvious: that hasn't been my experience, but maybe it's the people I tend to run with. Most people I know don't have bumper stickers on their cars, don't have wear political shirts or caps... I don't even see much of that when I'm out and about.  So. 🤷‍♂️

ETA: Oh and I do see political signs in yards, but those are generally gone after the election, and it's not like I'm going to remember who had whose sign on their lawn.  People who leave them up annoy me no matter what party/candidate they supported, so there's that. 

Your experience is similar to mine. 

[marbel]

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

We vote like our tribe generally speaking. Most of the white men you know voted for Trump. Most of the non-white people you know voted for Biden. Middle aged white women usually voted for Trump but not at the same rates as white men. If you're like me: white, middle class, suburban, and middle-aged, most of the people you know voted for Trump. 

This varies based on location. In an urban area, it's more likely than the white people voted for Biden than Trump than in a suburban or rural area. 

 

OK? I mean I believe you but it doesn't change anything for me. 

[frogger]

Ok, I'm sorry. I now just have SNL's "Republican or Not?" Skit in my mind. 🤣

I will let it go at that. To each his own. 

[Melissa Louise]

Thinking about this some more.

I don't filter out people by who they vote for, in terms of polite interaction, nor by religion, but they have to be able to be respectful of the fact I'm not gonna hide my gay dd. If they are uncomfortable about that, there's a limit to how friendly we are ever going to be.

~

In theory, I shouldn't be lonely. I have a few close friends, a few work friends, work acquaintances, hobby friends, and am in contact with my adult children.

But what I don't have is a spouse, and as unfashionable as that is, being single can be very lonely. You are no-one's most important person. And being single in a sea of families (all my friends are either partnered, or in the thick of raising younger kids, or both) is worse. You are always, at best, an addition to someone else's family life.

I also don't have much time, or money  - two things which would allow wider experience/meeting others/making something new of life.  For example, I work both evenings I could otherwise attend a local writer's group. And adventurous things I'd like to do - there's a women's walking group who is doing to Camino - $$.

Lest it be a pity party, I can spend time with my sibling, and not feel lonely at all. And I have a creative life, which is life-saving. 

But it's still lonely!

 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Guys, you're going to get the thread locked with party politics.

[regentrude]

56 minutes ago, marbel said:

ETA: Oh and I do see political signs in yards, but those are generally gone after the election, and it's not like I'm going to remember who had whose sign on their lawn.  People who leave them up annoy me no matter what party/candidate they supported, so there's that. 

Oh here they stay! And the 2020 gets changed into 2024. 

[regentrude]

15 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

In theory, I shouldn't be lonely. I have a few close friends, a few work friends, work acquaintances, hobby friends, and am in contact with my adult children.

But what I don't have is a spouse, and as unfashionable as that is, being single can be very lonely. You are no-one's most important person. And being single in a sea of families (all my friends are either partnered, or in the thick of raising younger kids, or both) is worse. You are always, at best, an addition to someone else's family life.

I am sorry. I imagine being single can be very isolating where that is viewed as something odd. Hugs. 

[Melissa Louise]

7 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I am sorry. I imagine being single can be very isolating where that is viewed as something odd. Hugs. 

Thank you.

I don't think anyone views it as odd.

I just find it lonely.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I have a newspapers.com account and enjoy reading archives of the newspaper from the very small town I grew up.  It’s filled with interesting anecdotes of my ancestors.  They had barn dances, dinners, surprise birthday parties and someone always sent in all the people who attended. Mostly, it was siblings and cousins, people they grew up with and lived life with for 87 years.

In the same area now, very few people still have siblings and cousins close by.  My own siblings are all scattered across the country and two are estranged, I don’t even know where they’re living. My kids only know three of their fifteen cousins, and they live several hours away.  It’s a different world than the newspapers tell from 1923.

There’s also stories of The Home Bureau. I adore the Home Bureau; my grandmother was part of it when I was little.  They had living room tours throughout the community and ate cookies. Ladies taught floral arranging and they did seasonal crafts.  And picnics where you brought your own lemon.

I’m very interested in the lemon. 
All these things are community building activities that don’t exist much anymore.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Guest]

I am one who also wonders if the Introvert/Extrovert distinction has become too overblown. Throughout my life, I always thought my mom was an extrovert (though she may be), unlike myself. But now I have grown to do a lot of the things my mom did and it occurs to me that I probably *look* like an extrovert to others. I am a joiner and I have groups I have been in for decades now. I go to lengths to maintain friendships and spend time doing fun things with others. 
 

It occurs to me that, at least speaking just for myself, a lot of what passes for introversion is really just mental unwellness. If we go back to the Maslow’s needs model, people who don’t have their basic needs met do not have the bandwidth to worry about friends too. 

[marbel]

48 minutes ago, Quill said:

I am one who also wonders if the Introvert/Extrovert distinction has become too overblown. Throughout my life, I always thought my mom was an extrovert (though she may be), unlike myself. But now I have grown to do a lot of the things my mom did and it occurs to me that I probably *look* like an extrovert to others. I am a joiner and I have groups I have been in for decades now. I go to lengths to maintain friendships and spend time doing fun things with others. 
 

It occurs to me that, at least speaking just for myself, a lot of what passes for introversion is really just mental unwellness. If we go back to the Maslow’s needs model, people who don’t have their basic needs met do not have the bandwidth to worry about friends too. 

I agree that people sometimes mischaracterize introversion and extroversion. I think what many people call introversion is really shyness and possibly social anxiety.  For example, not wanting to make phone calls or answer calls is not a characteristic of introversion. Introversion as a characteristic does not include anti-social behavior. It means the person may need/want more time alone than others. They may not reach out as much to initiate social events.  Their "social battery" may run out before many other people's. But (most) introverts still join groups and enjoy social events. 

[YaelAldrich]

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I have a newspapers.com account and enjoy reading archives of the newspaper from the very small town I grew up.  It’s filled with interesting anecdotes of my ancestors.  They had barn dances, dinners, surprise birthday parties and someone always sent in all the people who attended. Mostly, it was siblings and cousins, people they grew up with and lived life with for 87 years.

In the same area now, very few people still have siblings and cousins close by.  My own siblings are all scattered across the country and two are estranged, I don’t even know where they’re living. My kids only know three of their fifteen cousins, and they live several hours away.  It’s a different world than the newspapers tell from 1923.

There’s also stories of The Home Bureau. I adore the Home Bureau; my grandmother was part of it when I was little.  They had living room tours throughout the community and ate cookies. Ladies taught floral arranging and they did seasonal crafts.  And picnics where you brought your own lemon.

I’m very interested in the lemon. 
All these things are community building activities that don’t exist much anymore.

Did you know there is a growing number of towns and cities who give away money and assistance to grow neighborhoodand community ties through block parties and other events?

[Clarita]

7 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

Did you know there is a growing number of towns and cities who give away money and assistance to grow neighborhoodand community ties through block parties and other events?

In my neighborhood occasionally there are these block party things, even the police and fire trucks show up like they do for community helpers day in school. I don't know what you have to do to host one, but they invite the surrounding immediate neighborhood. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

23 minutes ago, Clarita said:

In my neighborhood occasionally there are these block party things, even the police and fire trucks show up like they do for community helpers day in school. I don't know what you have to do to host one, but they invite the surrounding immediate neighborhood. 

We do that on the National Night Out. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

2 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

Did you know there is a growing number of towns and cities who give away money and assistance to grow neighborhoodand community ties through block parties and other events?

I live very rurally—none of that is happening here.

My sister lives in a Florida suburb in a gated community.  They have so many community activities with the people who live within the same few block radius.  She has a lot of friends that she’s met that way and they’ve formed close relationships through the intentional efforts of the HOA.

I have cows lol.

[fairfarmhand]

4 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I live very rurally—none of that is happening here.

My sister lives in a Florida suburb in a gated community.  They have so many community activities with the people who live within the same few block radius.  She has a lot of friends that she’s met that way and they’ve formed close relationships through the intentional efforts of the HOA.

I have cows lol.

Me too. They’re not awful neighbors. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I feel like there is a bias towards extroversion or something like that. As a shy person, I think I have someone internalized the idea that there is "normal" and there is "shy." I can't describe it. My DD is also shy and I cringed when I overhead adults describing her as shy right in front of her. Why is it okay to do that? 

I remember reading about how many women experience random men telling them to smile. Before I read those articles, I thought this was only happened to me. And still to this day, I do not understand why men do that. Now that I'm in my 50s, men don't say things like that to me anymore so one benefit to being middle-aged. LOL. 

But along those lines, DD tells me that people (even adults but usually kids) have asked her why she's so quiet or, "do you ever talk?" And I realized people asked me those kinds of questions too. Do extremely extroverted people get asked why they talk all of the time? But why is it okay to ask people that? What possible answer can you give? 

 

The opposite of shy is not extroverted. I would say that it’s possibly socially confident. I used to be extremely shy but grew in my social confidence over the years. This has zero to do with needing extra time to recharge away from people. 

[Pawz4me]

7 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I feel like there is a bias towards extroversion or something like that. As a shy person, I think I have someone internalized the idea that there is "normal" and there is "shy." I can't describe it. My DD is also shy and I cringed when I overhead adults describing her as shy right in front of her. Why is it okay to do that? 

I remember reading about how many women experience random men telling them to smile. Before I read those articles, I thought this was only happened to me. And still to this day, I do not understand why men do that. Now that I'm in my 50s, men don't say things like that to me anymore so one benefit to being middle-aged. LOL. 

But along those lines, DD tells me that people (even adults but usually kids) have asked her why she's so quiet or, "do you ever talk?" And I realized people asked me those kinds of questions too. Do extremely extroverted people get asked why they talk all of the time? But why is it okay to ask people that? What possible answer can you give? 

 

I'm introverted and I believe most people who know me IRL would say I'm the most mentally stable person they know. I'm not shy, and I don't have social anxiety (although it's possible I was both of those as a younger person). If asked why I'm so quiet I'm not a bit hesitant to say "Just listening" or "How am I supposed to get a word in when you (or you all) are talking so much?" And I'll say that deadpan or with a wink, depending. I agree that it shouldn't be an issue.

And I'm sitting here cringing that (once again) introversion is being likened to mental illness or social anxiety. Sigh. I thought we'd left those tropes behind years ago. Yes, a person who is an introvert can be shy or struggle with mental health. A person who is extroverted can be shy and struggle with mental health. None of these are the same things, although of course there can be overlap in any individual. (ETA: Yes, I understand that what @Quill said isn't implying that introverted people are mentally ill, but it seems dangerously close to that to me.)

Edited May 10, 2023 by Pawz4me

[SKL]

Yeah I too was wondering about the introvert / extrovert thing in relation to the loneliness discussion, but I was wondering if being an introvert might make one less likely to be lonely.  We introverts don't gain energy from interacting with others the way extroverts do.  Speaking for myself, I rarely "miss" in-person interactions.  In fact, I crave time to myself ... bonus if I'm not too busy to notice that I'm alone.  😛

I'm trying to remember if I've ever felt lonely.  Out-of-place, yes, but lonely, I really can't remember.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah I too was wondering about the introvert / extrovert thing in relation to the loneliness discussion, but I was wondering if being an introvert might make one less likely to be lonely.  We introverts don't gain energy from interacting with others the way extroverts do.  Speaking for myself, I rarely "miss" in-person interactions.  In fact, I crave time to myself ... bonus if I'm not too busy to notice that I'm alone.  😛

I'm trying to remember if I've ever felt lonely.  Out-of-place, yes, but lonely, I really can't remember.

I thought this a lot during pandemic restrictions. Most introverts I knew were - whether secretly or openly - enjoying the forced time-out. For sure, there were other things that sucked about the pandemic, but *for me*, loneliness was not one of them. It was *almost* as good doing book club on Zoom, because I still felt like I saw my friends. I don’t have a high need for being touched/hugged/cuddled by others, so I didn’t feel that as loneliness either. 

[Pawz4me]

37 minutes ago, SKL said:

I'm trying to remember if I've ever felt lonely.  Out-of-place, yes, but lonely, I really can't remember.

I'm 60 and I can only remember feeling lonely one time in my life, and it was for a very brief period of time. My memory is of one specific evening, but I think the feeling probably lasted for a few weeks. It was about 35 years ago.

[pinball]

10 hours ago, Clarita said:

In my neighborhood occasionally there are these block party things, even the police and fire trucks show up like they do for community helpers day in school. I don't know what you have to do to host one, but they invite the surrounding immediate neighborhood. 

Google “My Municipality block party permit” 

With the permit, you might have be asked if your neighbors know and are involved, you might have to pay a fee, there is usually a length of time you need to apply ahead of time bc barricades need to be delivered and that needs to be coordinated with roads crews, and some applications allow you to a ask for open container law to be waived (if applicable in your location).

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I feel like there is a bias towards extroversion or something like that. As a shy person, I think I have someone internalized the idea that there is "normal" and there is "shy." I can't describe it. My DD is also shy and I cringed when I overhead adults describing her as shy right in front of her. Why is it okay to do that? 

I remember reading about how many women experience random men telling them to smile. Before I read those articles, I thought this was only happened to me. And still to this day, I do not understand why men do that. Now that I'm in my 50s, men don't say things like that to me anymore so one benefit to being middle-aged. LOL. 

But along those lines, DD tells me that people (even adults but usually kids) have asked her why she's so quiet or, "do you ever talk?" And I realized people asked me those kinds of questions too. Do extremely extroverted people get asked why they talk all of the time? But why is it okay to ask people that? What possible answer can you give? 

 

There is a societal bias towards extroversion; it sort of makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Shy people would not have as many mating opportunities and would be less assertive about securing food and shelter, not to mention cooperative work makes it easier for all to meet their basic needs. (Like, five people hunting are more likely to secure game than one alone.) 

As a person who grew up being described as quiet and/or shy, and who had a daughter described the same way, NO, I don’t think it is okay for people to make those comments, just as it is not okay to comment on how people eat or how skinny they are or how big their feet are or whatever. 
 

With that said, I do not think being *actually shy* - ie., unable to speak or make your needs known, paralyzed on calling the dentist, fail to meet someone you’re interested in because you can’t get past the fear of interacting - is to be operating at optimal mental health. It means something is sub-optimal, however that came about (ie, nature/nurture). I mean, it’s nothing to be ashamed of; nobody’s perfect. But it’s something one can develop more positively, just as one who, say, learns to control a quick temper or stops being hyper defensive. The hot-head *could* just go through life, excusing themselves by saying, “Well, I’m just an Irish red-head; my dad was like that too; nothing I can do about it…” but he doesn’t *have* to. 

[Melissa Louise]

Wow, you guys are lucky!

What's your secret?!

 

 

[pinball]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

There is a societal bias towards extroversion; it sort of makes sense from an evolutionary perspective

Except that it’s said intro/extra people are evenly divided in the population.

If there was a pure benefit of extra over intro, then intros would have died out.

There must have been benefits to intros as well as downsides to extras. “From an evolutionary perspective”

[Pawz4me]

I tend to believe that many of the world’s early explorers were likely introverted. They had to have been comfortable being away from people and being alone or mostly alone for vast amounts of time. 

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, pinball said:

Except that it’s said intro/extra people are evenly divided in the population.

If there was a pure benefit of extra over intro, then intros would have died out.

There must have been benefits to intros as well as downsides to extras. “From an evolutionary perspective”

I mean there are benefits to being a home-body ... in the evolutionary sense, it might have helped ensure there were safe homes in which to raise healthy children, while the extrovert of the family was out with the hunting party chasing critters to eat ....

I don't know whether there's been a study about this, but it used to be sort of assumed that statistically, males were more likely to be extroverts and females more likely to be introverts.  Anyone know if there is data?