Sensitive topic - DO NOT QUOTE

[gardenmom5]

I need to clarify some things.  Don't quote - I plan on deleting parts of this.

The police know. (even without what happened, it's good to let the police know so if the other party calls . . . they have a record of what is going on.)

I spoke with another officer on the phone last night, asking exactly what the procedure was.  

EPO - emergency protective orders, require actual battery/physical contact.  Damaging property while trying to make physical contact doesn't count if they didn't make actual physical contact.  (yeah, right!)

RO - restraining order - doesn't require actual physical contact, and what happened qualifies.  BUT - we have to wait for the court to open.  

he's very smart - he manages people for a living, and knows just how to phrase things to get what he wants.  (the police did not buy his "I didn't recognize it was my wife in the driver's seat".)

I'm starting to wonder if his panic about getting the drugs in Dec was an indicator it had already started.  his regular dr made him sign a pain contract - it will make it harder to get the drugs legally.

[KSera]

Not going to quote, but floored about the EPO. So if someone swung a hammer at their wife’s head and missed and hit the wall instead, that wouldn’t qualify for an EPO because they didn’t successfully make contact?! That’s crazy. 
 

On the December panic, yes, I would expect so. I feel like a broken record, but all of this to me says that this is currently an issue stemming from the liberal prescription of oxy in the beginning, which has now become a crisis due to the abrupt discontinuation after several months. The other stuff certainly is likely making it even worse, but if whatever the cocktail is had never been added, I expect this would still be a significant issue right now. Perhaps it would be better recognize for what it was though and he’d be getting better help. 
 

I hope the proper orders can be gotten. It seems absolutely crazy to me that that’s not a done deal based on which already happened. Hopefully you guys have somewhere safe you’re hanging out, and things at least get sorted out better when the courts open. What bad luck for it to be a three day weekend.

[Hilltopmom]

Stay safe.

Please do not return to the house or send anyone else there to collect things!

Things can be replaced, not people. 

Law enforcement can do escorts to get things from a home but I wouldn’t do that at this point. I’m hoping you were able to get important paperwork with you since you had advance notice.

Thinking of your family. I’m so glad you decided to go out to her.

 

[Sneezyone]

29 minutes ago, KSera said:

Not going to quote, but floored about the EPO.

I'm not. Live women/children have fewer protections than most entities on Earth. Control and subdue. That's the goal...especially in some regions and folks need to be damned clear about that where their families are concerned. I am so glad Gardenmom acted fast. No one thinks it's an issue until it is. Faith-Manor was right.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Sneezyone

[thatfirstsip]

I'm still shocked this isn't charged as a crime. I wonder if I'm missing something.

Separate of the protective order issue, it's just...a crime.

[elegantlion]

2 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

Law enforcement can do escorts to get things from a home but I wouldn’t do that at this point. I’m hoping you were able to get important paperwork with you since you had advance notice.

\

 

Agreed! I accompanied a friend once that had police help them move out. It allowed them to take more time & care without confrontation. 

[thatfirstsip]

I mean, swinging a shovel at the windowshield of a car with someone in the car, especially in the driver's seat, is assault. It's not a non-crime. It's on camera, there's physical evidence, there's witnesses, he's admitted (to the cops?!) that he did it. In what universe has no one arrested him?

[Sneezyone]

Just now, thatfirstsip said:

I mean, swinging a shovel at the windowshield of a car with someone in the car, especially in the driver's seat, is assault. It's not a non-crime. It's on camera, there's physical evidence, there's witnesses, he's admitted (to the cops?!) that he did it. In what universe has no one arrested him?

This is where we are in some parts of America. https://youtu.be/Sj28vTtt_h0

 

 

[Wishes]

Sneezyone The link is for that Cosby show episode where they charge Theo for rent and his furniture 

[pinball]

15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This is where we are in some parts of America. https://youtu.be/Sj28vTtt_h0

 

 

Wait, did the SIL drug and sexually assault women too?

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Wishes said:

Sneezyone The link is for that Cosby show episode where they charge Theo for rent and his furniture 

Yep. That's the (not so) tongue and cheek soundtrack playing in my head where folks don't think reality applies to them. It does. It sucks. This is where we are...a caricature of right and wrong.

[ktgrok]

In my state, assault is a threat to cause harm, so this incident would make the criteria. Battery, in my state, has to involve actual contact/touching. I'm wondering if in the state this happened they are tied together, so contact is needed?

[ktgrok]

Just googled, assault is a misdemeanor in many places. huh. 

[WildflowerMom]

Rules and laws apply differently to men.  

[Wishes]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Yep. That's the (not so) tongue in cheek soundtrack playing in my head where folks don't think reality applies to them. It does. It sucks. This is where we are...a caricature of right and wrong.

Ah, got it. Sorry. My irony alert is missing.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Wishes said:

Ah, got it. Sorry. My irony alert is missing.

No worries. My twisted vibes don't always translate.

[AmandaVT]

Ugh - unfortunately, the law doesn't always make sense. We just had a situation this week where someone I know had their car window shot in and their car vandalized and this person can't get a restraining order (there were verbal and written threats too). It's a wait to fail system and too many people get injured or killed before offenders can get arrested sometimes. It makes me so mad. 

[ktgrok]

OH! Now that domestic violence is an issue you might try googling for a "victim's advocate" for whatever jurisdiction it happened in. They may be able to help "work the system" to press for charges, etc. They work for the victim, it's what they are trained to do. 

[BeachGal]

The CDC came out with new guidelines for prescribing opioids in November 2022 so this might be why he was prescribed the second drug. From what I’ve read, the guidelines have made the whole process more convoluted.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, BeachGal said:

The CDC came out with new guidelines for prescribing opioids in November 2022 so this might be why he was prescribed the second drug. From what I’ve read, the guidelines have made the whole process more convoluted.

The CDC site about this has a lot of helpful information for patients, clinicians and families. Here's the page on treatment options for opioid addiction:

https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/featured-topics/treatment-recovery.html

[gardenmom5]

6 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

Stay safe.

Please do not return to the house or send anyone else there to collect things!

Things can be replaced, not people. 

Law enforcement can do escorts to get things from a home but I wouldn’t do that at this point. I’m hoping you were able to get important paperwork with you since you had advance notice.

Thinking of your family. I’m so glad you decided to go out to her.

 

Even her viola, it was left behind. 

One of the saddest things is 1dgs was in a preschool there that was working really well for him.  He's made great progress.   She got speech appointments and autism evaluations this week.  Now, they're not happening. 

Got passports and birth certificates. 

Forgot the car title,  but a new one can be ordered and he shouldn't be able to change it.  Maybe go order one on Tuesday. 

[BusyMom5]

I wouldn't worry about the car title.   Neither can sell it if both names are on the title- it will have to go through court unless they agree to sell it.  As long as she has registration, that's all she should need for now.  Get the other stuff done first- bank, RO, emergency protection, lawyer, permission to leave the state with the kids.  

[pinball]

10 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Even her viola, it was left behind. 

One of the saddest things is 1dgs was in a preschool there that was working really well for him.  He's made great progress.   She got speech appointments and autism evaluations this week.  Now, they're not happening. 

Got passports and birth certificates. 

Forgot the car title,  but a new one can be ordered and he shouldn't be able to change it.  Maybe go order one on Tuesday. 

I’d say one of the saddest things is being in a car when your father attacked your mother with a shovel.

how are the the boys doing with THAT?

[pinball]

17 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

EPO - emergency protective orders, require actual battery/physical contact.  Damaging property while trying to make physical contact doesn't count if they didn't make actual physical contact.  (yeah, right!)

 

Google tells me that in your state this info is not correct.

How can I request an Emergency Protective Order? 

An emergency protective order (EPO) is available only at the time of an arrest for a crime involving family violence or sexual assault. It is temporary and emergency in nature, and cannot be extended.

The EPO can be requested in the following ways: 

1. By the victim of the alleged family violence offense;
2. By a guardian of the victim;
3. By an attorney representing the state and 
4. By a peace officer.

 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, pinball said:

I’d say one of the saddest things is being in a car when your father attacked your mother with a shovel.

how are the the boys doing with THAT?

the four year old kept asking what happened to the car (as we drove 45 minutes on the freeway with cold air blasting into the car),  then he said he didn't want daddy to hit him.

1 minute ago, pinball said:

Google tells me that in your state this info is not correct.

How can I request an Emergency Protective Order? 

An emergency protective order (EPO) is available only at the time of an arrest for a crime involving family violence or sexual assault. It is temporary and emergency in nature, and cannot be extended.

The EPO can be requested in the following ways: 

1. By the victim of the alleged family violence offense;
2. By a guardian of the victim;
3. By an attorney representing the state and 
4. By a peace officer.

 

 

 

he wasn't arrested.

[TechWife]

Is there a women's shelter nearby that you can contact for advice? They usually have attorneys that work with their clients to work the system. They would also have information about trauma counseling for your daughter and the children. Immediate intervention with the children, esp the one that has autism, is really important.

[pinball]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

the four year old kept asking what happened to the car (as we drove 45 minutes on the freeway with cold air blasting into the car),  then he said he didn't want daddy to hit him.

he wasn't arrested.

Yeah, I know he wasn’t arrested. But an EPO doesn’t required physical contact, like you wrote.

[Faith-manor]

My heart breaks for your grandson. That had to have been so damn scary for him. I am so glad you were there to help her!

[ScoutTN]

Hoping y’all are safe and getting the help you need! 

[freesia]

I am also baffled that he wasn’t arrested. I’m so glad you were there to help her. 

[Terabith]

Could you guys stay in a hotel so grandson can go to autism evaluation?  Even if you don’t stay in area, having that done could offer services. 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, freesia said:

I am also baffled that he wasn’t arrested. I’m so glad you were there to help her. 

I'm thinking he said he arrived home and thought his car was being stolen - he didn't know who was in the car and as soon as he did, he stopped. At that point, without proof otherwise, they likely wouldn't charge him as it would be hard to prove his story false. 

[pinball]

25 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm thinking he said he arrived home and thought his car was being stolen - he didn't know who was in the car and as soon as he did, he stopped. At that point, without proof otherwise, they likely wouldn't charge him as it would be hard to prove his story false. 

But GM said she was close enough to him that she was yelling as he called 911 that it was his wife in the car.

So that’s the proof…his MIL was there and she was yelling it was his wife

 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

he wasn't arrested.

Have the police given you a direct reason why he wasn’t arrested?

[bolt.]

I think that what all this focus on the showshovel-car event is trying to get at, gardenmom, is that some of us are worried that you might be having a (perfectly normal, totally understandable) trauma response where if the people around you/dd try to minimize something (which it sounds like the police did, which they shouldn't have done at all!) you-both seem a little too ready to accept that narrative.

If that's what's happening I want you to know that it's really normal. We are not actually the bosses of our psychological instincts. What that is is an openly-offered easy alternative to looking squarely in the face of what is happening to her and what is coming for her. A part of both of you is going to want to grab that with both hands! Because you are both totally normal human beings and denial/minimization-when-possible is what perfectly normal human beings do with trauma and terror.

I also want to acknowledge that of course nobody would know but you if that was really happening or not. You're there. We're not. I just wanted to raise it and explain it: both to help with the situation at hand (so you can keep an eye on yourselves) and to help you understand what some of the more oblique (and seemingly critical) comments here might be getting at.

So: just in case you look hard at this and see the possibility that you might be 'accepting invitations to minimize' -- you need to know: if you don't accept a minimizing story from a police officer (or other person: ie lawyers, insurance people) you can actually get a different result by being vocal and insisting that things aren't right and you want more actions taken. That actually works. It's really common that people (even police) don't stick with their first assessment if you insist on carrying the conversation further and fully demonstrating/communicating how seriously you are taking it.

Someone can reply to a minimizing police officer by kicking up a fuss and insisting that arresting him is the right thing to do. It's a borderline situation, and if you don't side with the people who want to minimize it, you can totally sway the decision. If you do side with them, you communicate that you-and-dd agree that he's probably fine -- and the officer might be looking to you-two for that confirmation.

Not that you can go back in time, and not that I know/don't know whether you did that in the first place anyhow. No blame. No criticism. I'm just trying to illustrate, going forward, that some serious advocacy might be a good role for you in future situations. Don't accept a bad narrative -- kick back! It may feel weirdly hard (psychology happens)  but it's probably worth doing.

Again: I acknowledge openly that this is only one possibility. I may be totally off base. I'm just trying to raise a flag *in case* it's applicable. If it's not, please just accept the expression of care inherent in me providing irrelevant advice/perspective. I don't know you. I don't know your instincts. I know that minimizing wouldn't be unusual -- but also that other responses are obviously possible too! Don't take me too seriously. If I'm off base: please ignore me completely.