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Christians who are anti Semitic.


fairfarmhand
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s/o from another thread

 

 I don’t understand Christians being antisemitic. Christ was a fully Jewish man. He observed Jewish holidays and rituals and those things were intended to point to Him. If you read the New Testament epistles you see that due to Christ’s death Gentiles all “became Jewish” (grafted in if I remember the biblical terminology correctly) though they were free from the observance of the Old Testament laws (certain sects of Christianity still follow certain Old Testament laws) so I’ve never understood the idea of a Christ follower becoming antisemitic. 
Even calling Jews Christ killer doesn’t make sense because he was crucified by Roman’s with the assistance of the Jewish leaders, and his death was intended as redemption of all mankind. 
so why?

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I know very little about the history of it, but I would guess money and power. It's usually the right answer for why any group is treated badly when you drill down enough. If they couldn't be controlled by the church but still had power and influence of their own in an area, they were a threat to the power of the church and had to be dealt with accordingly.

Not to mention seeing people as "willfully, eternally lost" can make it easier to treat them poorly. I mean other non-Christians might not have heard the gospel and so aren't Christian, but when Jesus walked among them but then they rejected his salvation, that's another thing. Or so I've heard. But you have to care enough about them to single them out to treat them poorly, and I would guess the reason they were singled out had to do with money and power while the rationals for doing so were theological.

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7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think people will tell stories to justify their biases, rather than deriving their biases from stories. 

I think that can be true. But there are so many other stories beyond just the Biblical bits that fairfarmhand referenced in the OP. There are all the medieval tales and stereotypes. And those are so embedded in our culture in deep ways. The banking goblins of Harry Potter, the "greasy" and hook-nosed descriptions of Snape, the greedy trade guilds of Star Wars... Not to mention all the various Soros conspiracy stuff and Jews control the weather or Jewish space lasers or whatever. Those are stories too. Stories that are both justifying and creating justification. And there are a lot more of them than a few Bible passages.

On the one hand, it's illogical. But on the other hand, the Jewish people are the ones who heard the "Good News" and rejected it. Many of them are people who lived among Christians and never converted for generations and generations. It's horrible, but it makes absolute sense to me that they would be a particular target for bigoty by Christians.

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6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think people will tell stories to justify their biases, rather than deriving their biases from stories. 

 

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

There are no logical reasons for racism or bigotry from any group towards any other group. 

Wait. You mean people don't always logically examine their biases! WHAT!

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2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I think that can be true. But there are so many other stories beyond just the Biblical bits that fairfarmhand referenced in the OP. There are all the medieval tales and stereotypes. And those are so embedded in our culture in deep ways. The banking goblins of Harry Potter, the "greasy" and hook-nosed descriptions of Snape, the greedy trade guilds of Star Wars... Not to mention all the various Soros conspiracy stuff and Jews control the weather or Jewish space lasers or whatever. Those are stories too. Stories that are both justifying and creating justification. And there are a lot more of them than a few Bible passages.

On the one hand, it's illogical. But on the other hand, the Jewish people are the ones who heard the "Good News" and rejected it. Many of them are people who lived among Christians and never converted for generations and generations. It's horrible, but it makes absolute sense to me that they would be a particular target for bigoty by Christians.

Don't I know it, being Jewish. But I think the bias comes from interactions with real Jews, and then the stories come later. And I suppose those introduce the prejudice to the next generation, too, so yes... it's a cycle. 

It can be really interesting to read British literature in which Jews appear. Lots of stories have completely unexamined biases. 

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5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Don't I know it, being Jewish. But I think the bias comes from interactions with real Jews, and then the stories come later. And I suppose those introduce the prejudice to the next generation, too, so yes... it's a cycle. 

It can be really interesting to read British literature in which Jews appear. Lots of stories have completely unexamined biases. 

Do you think? It's complex because it depends on the dynamic. When there's plenty of exposure to the "other" group, but it's along us vs. them lines from the get go, then that's one thing. Or when it's in a context where the person ends up feeling intimidated or marginalized. But a lot of Americans - a lot of Europeans even - don't personally have much experience of Jewish people or culture. So I would think this would be something where bias would diminish by exposure, not be triggered by it. I'm willing to be wrong, of course.

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Just now, Farrar said:

Do you think? It's complex because it depends on the dynamic. When there's plenty of exposure to the "other" group, but it's along us vs. them lines from the get go, then that's one thing. Or when it's in a context where the person ends up feeling intimidated or marginalized. But a lot of Americans - a lot of Europeans even - don't personally have much experience of Jewish people or culture. So I would think this would be something where bias would diminish by exposure, not be triggered by it. I'm willing to be wrong, of course.

Yeah, it's complicated. A mix of all sorts of things. Of course, for some people who don't KNOW any Jews, they become an abstract 'other.' 

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1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I think that can be true. But there are so many other stories beyond just the Biblical bits that fairfarmhand referenced in the OP. There are all the medieval tales and stereotypes. And those are so embedded in our culture in deep ways. The banking goblins of Harry Potter, the "greasy" and hook-nosed descriptions of Snape, the greedy trade guilds of Star Wars... Not to mention all the various Soros conspiracy stuff and Jews control the weather or Jewish space lasers or whatever. Those are stories too. Stories that are both justifying and creating justification. And there are a lot more of them than a few Bible passages.

On the one hand, it's illogical. But on the other hand, the Jewish people are the ones who heard the "Good News" and rejected it. Many of them are people who lived among Christians and never converted for generations and generations. It's horrible, but it makes absolute sense to me that they would be a particular target for bigoty by Christians.

This is how it seems where I live. There is the kind of end times support for the existence once of Israel in Palestine, but not support for Jewish people in America. I think that adding to what Farrar said is also the n.t. passage about "being given over to hard heartedness" so in the eyes of some Christians, maybe the idea that their god has abandoned or turned away from the Jewish people therefore it is okay to discriminate or turn away from them.  Not sure. Just thinking aloud or more to the point, typing aloud. 🙂

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Anti-semitism and any kind of bigotry is awful. But I am also uncomfortable with the over-the-top pro-Israel rhetoric from some conservative evangelical churches. It's as if Israel can do no wrong. My husband and I visited a large evangelical church in California whose whole focus seemed to be wrapped up in Israel, with flags and all. And then you have people who want to see the temple rebuilt because they believe it must happen before Jesus returns, so they give money to the cause, somehow. It all seems so disingenuous and weird to me. 

Love your neighbors, all of them. Don't fawn over some of them because you want to use them for your own purposes (as if God needed you for that). 

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I find that there's a good bit of conflation of the interests of the Israeli government and the Jewish people worldwide by a whole host of entities - both anti-Semitic and not. And I find some of the Christian support for Israel like what Mercy just referenced really anti-Semitic because it's tied up with Christian end times mythology and has nothing to do with support of Israel politically or the Jews as a people. Or it's tied up with anti-Islamic sentiment, which is also gross and bigoted. 

I don't feel like I really get anti-Semitism in America on some level. I grew up in the south and I have certainly seen and observed lots of anti-Black racism and I definitely feel like I get the roots that, at least to some extent. Like, that makes some sense to me on an historic level and also on a level of indoctrination in everyday life. But with Americans and anti-Semitism, it feels absolutely whackadoodle to me. Like, it's so blatantly absurd and doesn't relate to our direct history or our daily experiences for the most part. I get that it's been imported, but that's so weird, especially when there are so few American Jews relatively speaking. And some of the vocal people talking about it are sometimes not of European ancestry anyway. One of my city council members (a really not bright one) actually said the thing about the Jews controlling the weather a few years ago. My ward representative is Jewish and she was clearly like, this is so dumb that I don't even know how to talk to this guy about it. It's as irrational as the lizard people thing. It would be funny if it wasn't real. Yet it's real. It's very, very real and hurts real people.

 

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36 minutes ago, Farrar said:

This may be part of the issue - people who are aware of Jewish Americans in public life, but who don't know anyone Jewish personally.

When I was a kid, the most friendly/open people in my classes were Jewish. Still friends today. No issues. As a young adult, my most friendly/open 'others' were Mormon. Still friends. Still no issues. I might have a hard time making sense of the current landscape but for the working hypothesis I developed as a teen... nominal Christian conservatives care more about power and any narrative that supports their authority to exert power/control than than fidelity to or understanding of religious texts. *shrug* At least in the HOTEP black community, I feel like anti-semitism is a lingering poison pill caused by intentional divide and conquer messaging. It's very effective.

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As a fairly clueless person, and a Canadian too, I'm not even aware of whether I know any Jewish people -- because how exactly would you know whether or not someone is Jewish??? It's not like they have an accent (like Scottish people, for example), or a distinctive style of dress (like people from India for example), and nobody goes around waving flags. It's not okay to just ask people, "Hey, just so I know, are you Jewish?"

It's something I've never really figured out, even though I've contemplated it since I first learned about the Holocaust as a child. I now know how one would have found out who was or wasn't Jewish in those days, with the power of the state. I still don't know how a person here and now would know just casually through social interaction, unless the Jewish person casually volunteered the info. I don't even know how people 'know' that certain celebrities, politicians, etc. are or aren't Jewish -- do they put it on the website?

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8 minutes ago, bolt. said:

As a fairly clueless person, and a Canadian too, I'm not even aware of whether I know any Jewish people -- because how exactly would you know whether or not someone is Jewish??? It's not like they have an accent (like Scottish people, for example), or a distinctive style of dress (like people from India for example), and nobody goes around waving flags. It's not okay to just ask people, "Hey, just so I know, are you Jewish?"

Umm...you talk to them and get to know them as more than acquaintances? As kids, my friends often spoke of Bat Mitzvahs and Bar Mitzvahs, high holy day celebrations/gatherings, etc.

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Just now, Sneezyone said:

Umm...you talk to them and get to know them as more than aquaintances? As kids, my friends often spoke of Bat Mitzvahs and Bar Mitzvahs, high holy day celebrations/gatherings, ets.

I see. People would just talk about those things with workmates, their kids' friends' parents, people they participate in sports with, etc? I guess I'm not that close to that many people overall. I'd be surprised if many of my acquaintances were to mention their religious life in casual settings. (It could be one of those differences between Canadian and American culture too. I rarely bring up my religious activities in general conversation either.)

I've also kind of assumed that there are plenty of Jewish people who aren't really observant, and it wouldn't come up in their chatting about daily life. Those people are Jewish too. In Canada there are *far* more nominal Christians than their are observant Christians... maybe my assumption that a similar ratio would hold true for Judaism is unfounded?

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11 minutes ago, bolt. said:

As a fairly clueless person, and a Canadian too, I'm not even aware of whether I know any Jewish people -- because how exactly would you know whether or not someone is Jewish???

It's the nose 😛 . 

Well, not really, but it works for a surprising number of people. 

There are some pretty distinctive casts of features, anyway. DH will pretty much always get identified by anyone who knows what Jews tend to look like. I tend to be more anonymous. 

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1 hour ago, MercyA said:

Anti-semitism and any kind of bigotry is awful. But I am also uncomfortable with the over-the-top pro-Israel rhetoric from some conservative evangelical churches. It's as if Israel can do no wrong. My husband and I visited a large evangelical church in California whose whole focus seemed to be wrapped up in Israel, with flags and all. And then you have people who want to see the temple rebuilt because they believe it must happen before Jesus returns, so they give money to the cause, somehow. It all seems so disingenuous and weird to me. 

Love your neighbors, all of them. Don't fawn over some of them because you want to use them for your own purposes (as if God needed you for that). 

None of it makes sense.  The temple was destroyed. The Jews as a chosen people was ended with the Christ.  That does NOT mean every person of Jewish ancestry/descent is cut off.  Everyone has the opportunity to accept Christ. But even Religious Jews who do not accept that Jesus was the Messiah do not deserve hate.  Jesus had strong words for the hypocritical religious (Jewish) leaders of his day in large part because of how they treated the common people. He did not have contempt for the Jewish people.  

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Just now, bolt. said:

I see. People would just talk about those things with workmates, their kids' friends' parents, people they participate in sports with, etc? I guess I'm not that close to that many people overall. I'd be surprised if many of my acquaintances were to mention their religious life in casual settings. (It could be one of those differences between Canadian and American culture too. I rarely bring up my religious activities in general conversation either.)

I've also kind of assumed that there are plenty of Jewish people who aren't really observant, and it wouldn't come up in their chatting about daily life. Those people are Jewish too. In Canada there are *far* more nominal Christians than their are observant Christians... maybe my assumption that a similar ratio would hold true for Judaism is unfounded?

It's a pretty strong cultural identity. Yes, it gets talked about. And I'm also Canadian. 

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Just now, bolt. said:

I see. People would just talk about those things with workmates, their kids' friends' parents, people they participate in sports with, etc? I guess I'm not that close to that many people overall. I'd be surprised if many of my acquaintances were to mention their religious life in casual settings. (It could be one of those differences between Canadian and American culture too. I rarely bring up my religious activities in general conversation either.)

Yeah, growing up on the southern side of the Canadian border, I'm not sure how true that is. Making friends in school included talking about the animating events in our lives. Significant rites of passage and holiday/vacation activities was part of that.

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As far as how you know who's Jewish (or Christian / Muslim / Hindu / Buddhist / Atheist ....), they generally share it in some way or other as you get to know them.

The US has pockets where the Jewish population is relatively high.  Last time I checked, there were more Jewish people living in New York City than in Israel.  Where there is enough critical mass, there will be visible signs such as folks in traditional dress walking the neighborhoods, lots of buildings named "Jewish ___ Center," Hebrew schools, etc.

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Just now, SKL said:

As far as how you know who's Jewish (or Christian / Muslim / Hindu / Buddhist / Atheist ....), they generally share it in some way or other as you get to know them.

The US has pockets where the Jewish population is relatively high.  Last time I checked, there were more Jewish people living in New York City than in Israel.  Where there is enough critical mass, there will be visible signs such as folks in traditional dress walking the neighborhoods, lots of buildings named "Jewish ___ Center," Hebrew schools, etc.

I think in NYC, it's like 1.5 million, and in Israel, it's like 7 million, so not quite. But it's a lot. 

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1 minute ago, SKL said:

As far as how you know who's Jewish (or Christian / Muslim / Hindu / Buddhist / Atheist ....), they generally share it in some way or other as you get to know them.

The US has pockets where the Jewish population is relatively high.  Last time I checked, there were more Jewish people living in New York City than in Israel.  Where there is enough critical mass, there will be visible signs such as folks in traditional dress walking the neighborhoods, lots of buildings named "Jewish ___ Center," Hebrew schools, etc.

Yeah, there was none of that in my area. I lived in the 'hood' and went to a magnet school w/in walking distance of my home, on the opposite coast.  NY has a high concentration of Hasidic Jews, true. We just had lots of open-minded, social justice-minded Jewish residents. 

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4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Yeah, there was none of that in my area. I lived in the 'hood' and went to a magnet school w/in walking distance of my home, on the opposite coast.  NY has a high concentration of Hasidic Jews, true. We just had lots of open-minded, social justice-minded Jewish residents. 

NY has a high concentration of non-Hasidic Jews as well. 

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5 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I see. People would just talk about those things with workmates, their kids' friends' parents, people they participate in sports with, etc? I guess I'm not that close to that many people overall. I'd be surprised if many of my acquaintances were to mention their religious life in casual settings. (It could be one of those differences between Canadian and American culture too. I rarely bring up my religious activities in general conversation either.)

I've also kind of assumed that there are plenty of Jewish people who aren't really observant, and it wouldn't come up in their chatting about daily life. Those people are Jewish too. In Canada there are *far* more nominal Christians than their are observant Christians... maybe my assumption that a similar ratio would hold true for Judaism is unfounded?

Although I have worked with men who wore the Yarmulke to work at various times, there are other ways these things naturally come out.  "I can't this weekend, I'm attending my nephew's Bris / Bar Mitzvah."  "I need to drop __ off at Hebrew School."  Their resume or published bio may show them active in Jewish organizations.  They may mention relatives who have immigrated from/to Israel and/or had some personal connection with Holocaust survivors; people with interesting life stories tend to share them.

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Bolt (and everyone), should you ever find your way to Boston (Or Tokyo) I can happily host you so you can meet some Jews.

Not fair to post this on the Jewish Sabbath!  😁

But all the answers are there and still there are more (and no) reasons for anti-Semitism....

We (Orthodox Jews) think this is part and parcel of being Jewish.  All the reasons given for anti-Semitism literally contradict themselves. Jews are rich.  Jews are poor and leach off of society.  Jews control everything, Jews control nothing and scheme to get control.  Etc. Etc.

It has been existent as long as there have been Jews.

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, depends if you think spotting people by their features is worth a confused emoji 😂. It's pretty obvious to me. 

Hasidic Jews have a dress code that makes them highly visible to people who are observant. THAT is what I was referring to, not facial features.

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Well, depends if you think spotting people by their features is worth a confused emoji 😂. It's pretty obvious to me. 

My father in law looks like Woody Allen.  Seriously.  But he is not at all Jewish.  I'm Jewish and I don't LOOK Jewish.  Bad at times. Good at others.

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2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

 

Wait. You mean people don't always logically examine their biases! WHAT!

Others do not have the Hive. 😉 But truly, most folks live in a tiny bubble and like it there.

It's never made good sense to me either, but for a very long time we've denied the reality of Jewish Jesus for white Jesus with blue eyes.  And they can further console themselves that he was killed by the Jewish people who rejected him. Never mind that He came *for* the Jewish people.

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27 minutes ago, SKL said:

I can't speak for all Christian denominations, but the one I was brought up in was very pro-Jewish and pro-Israel.

Right, but in the case of many Christian denominations, they are “pro-Jewish” and pro-Israel specifically because they believe those things will hasten the rapture/ Second Coming.  Which is both batshit insane and honestly not very loving.  

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10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think in NYC, it's like 1.5 million, and in Israel, it's like 7 million, so not quite. But it's a lot. 

OK I guess it varies by source, and may possibly have changed over time.

Here's a link showing that (per this source) about 11% of NYC area residents are Jewish, vs. 0.2% of the world population.  So naturally Jewish people will be much more visible in places like NYC and others with a relatively high concentration.

In my area, there are cities that are predominantly Jewish (one city I looked up claims to be 90% Jewish).  Naturally they have built their neighborhoods around this and are quite visible.

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Just now, SKL said:

OK I guess it varies by source, and may possibly have changed over time.

Here's a link showing that (per this source) about 11% of NYC area residents are Jewish, vs. 0.2% of the world population.  So naturally Jewish people will be much more visible in places like NYC and others with a relatively high concentration.

In my area, there are cities that are predominantly Jewish (one city I looked up claims to be 90% Jewish).  Naturally they have built their neighborhoods around this and are quite visible.

I believe Sharon MA is one of the cities with the highest Jewish percentage of citizens.  Other than the synagogues in it (not that many considering the old saying, Two Jews, Three Synagogues) it doesn't feel particularly Jewish.  Feels New England-y.

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6 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Right, but in the case of many Christian denominations, they are “pro-Jewish” and pro-Israel specifically because they believe those things will hasten the rapture/ Second Coming.  Which is both batshit insane and honestly not very loving.  

OK well that isn't what I've seen in the more mainstream Christian denominations.  🙂

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4 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

I believe Sharon MA is one of the cities with the highest Jewish percentage of citizens.  Other than the synagogues in it (not that many considering the old saying, Two Jews, Three Synagogues) it doesn't feel particularly Jewish.  Feels New England-y.

I think Jews exist and worship everywhere. Most folks are just not that open, IRL, to hearing/inquiring about other experiences/needs and rely on others to 'speak up' and ID themselves as others. At a recent work training, a participant expressed that he was concerned about ham (common in the south) as the only sandwich meat. I asked, specifically and openly, whether he followed a Halal diet and he said yes. Thus, a consensus around smoked turkey was born. It's not that hard.

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What does it even mean to “look Jewish”?  One of my good friends in Egypt is Jewish (well, Jewish according to Karaite and Islamic tradition, but Muslim according to Rabbinate tradition) and I would guess that most people here wouldn’t think he looks Jewish, at least in the way Americans and Europeans usually expect someone to look Jewish.  Same with Jews I’ve known from Yemen, Uzbekistan, Morocco, Turkey, and Mexico.  But they all have very, very old Jewish roots. 

But back to the original question, Christians often can’t even tell their founding story without a healthy dose of anti-semitism.  It’s built in and if they don’t pay attention, they’ll continue to perpetuate it.

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1 minute ago, Amira said:

What does it even mean to “look Jewish”?  One of my good friends in Egypt is Jewish (well, Jewish according to Karaite and Islamic tradition, but Muslim according to Rabbinate tradition) and I would guess that most people here wouldn’t think he looks Jewish, at least in the way Americans and Europeans usually expect someone to look Jewish.  Same with Jews I’ve known from Yemen, Uzbekistan, Morocco, Turkey, and Mexico.  But they all have very, very old Jewish roots. 

But back to the original question, Christians often can’t even tell their founding story without a healthy dose of anti-semitism.  It’s built in and if they don’t pay attention, they’ll continue to perpetuate it.

Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews look different, yes. The US and European stereotype is Ashkenazi Jews. 

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews look different, yes. The US and European stereotype is Ashkenazi Jews. 

And converts? Seriously, I do not understand where you're coming from here. Are they non-Jews? Are the only acceptable Jews for stereotype purposes ethnic Jews?

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