Opinion discussion - When a kid is not thriving away at college

[regentrude]

9 hours ago, matrips said:

How do they even expect kids to find out all this stuff?  

Doesn't your college send emails to the students about all the logistics and deadlines for housing, placement, immunization, transcripts etc? Coursework related stuff is discussed at advising and registration; don't yours have something like this?

[regentrude]

9 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Every spring I see panicked FB posts from parents whose kids suddenly realize they're 1 GE or a few credits short of graduation requirements and will not graduate on time, and of course they're always railing at the school and the "terrible advisors," after they chose to be totally uninvolved for the last four years. 

But doesn't every college have a way for students to run a degree audit and check whether they are on track and what exactly they still need to graduate? How can they be surprised at the last minute? 

Of course the advisor should check too and address that with the students at their semesterly meetings when they plan the coursework (However,  just because I told a student they still need xyz doesn't mean they actually listen). 

[regentrude]

If the student suffers from severe mental health issues,  I recommend the family bring them home to regroup. In my experience as a professor and advisor, once it's so bad that academics seriously slip and students no longer attend classes, this does NOT get better on campus. These students almost always disappear; the  promise to seek help locally usually doesn't come to anything. 

Mental health is the foundation for everything, and must take priority over athletics, finances, and degree plans.

[Wheres Toto]

I crashed and burned after 3 semesters away at college 35 years ago.  In hindsight, I definitely should have stayed closer to home but family/home life made going 1,500 miles away seem like a good idea.   After that I did a mix of local schools alternating or combined with working full time to eventually get three undergrad degrees (major changed due to who was paying, job reimbursements).  

My oldest looked at schools that were close enough to come home week long breaks but not weekends mostly.  She ended up attending a state university that is less than an hour away from us (depending on traffic) but living on campus.   It was really the best decision she could have made.  Close enough to come home on the weekends or in an emergency situation, but far enough to feel some independence.   She did end up coming home almost every weekend her first semester, maybe once a  month her second semester, and even less by her second year.   I don't think she would have done nearly as well if she was at one of the farther schools.   She ended up finishing her Bachelors and then going back to that school for a Masters.  

Ds is attending our local CC.  He started with 2 classes we thought would be fairly easy, then 4 the next semester (ended up with 3 after dropping one), so it's a slow gradually build-up, plus obviously comes home every day.   For him, this was the right plan. 

Youngest doesn't want to go to college at all.  She does a lot of art and writing and doesn't see how college will help.   I'm sure her path will be very different from both her siblings.  

[historically accurate]

If you look in my signature, you will see that oldest is "taking a break" from college. 

She went from straight A's while finishing an Associates in high school to flunking out of 4 year school. In her case, it was ADHD and physical health problems which then affected her mental health.

First year (fall 2020): we did the "Wait it out. Your roommates aren't too horrible. You'll find your people. Covid closures are sure to let up.".

Second year: she decided to give it a try (despite losing her merit scholarship) in the hopes that a lot of the problem was covid and she could handle her health issues, but soon there was nothing left but "Come home and we'll figure out what to do." 

The school did not work with us regarding her health issues at all. No matter how nice they seemed about it when I or she talked to them - when it came to needing any accomodations, they ignored it. She was too far away from home to bring her home often - that is partially because local schools cost a lot (like, a lot) more than this school did even with traveling further. The closest school here is about an hour away and it cost $2000 more per year than her school did there. 

She's at home and working now with no current plans to return to school. Who knows where she'll end up? I regret recommending she stay during her first year, but how was I to know it wasn't just first year adjustment issues? 

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by historically accurate

[Scarlett]

8 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I haven't read all the responses, so maybe what I say is redundant. 

If they aren't doing well, bring them home to regroup. If they can manage to finish the semester with decent grades, then maybe have them finish, but if they've hit the point where they're flunking classes and/or severely depressed, then it's time to come home.  It's not a failure for parent or child if they aren't ready to live independently just a few weeks after graduating high school. It's also a bit of a myth that everyone "back in the day" was perfectly capable of independent living at age 17 or 18 and did so without issue. Not saying that anyone here claims that as true, but it's an attitude I've bumped up against before "Kids today are soft! In my day blah blah blah...uphill, both ways, in the snow..."

I did ok my first year of college but started to crash and burn halfway through year 2 when all family support was suddenly yanked.  I didn't have a lot of family support through high school or freshman year but losing the little bit I had, (coupled with the abusive boyfriend), spelled disaster. 

Agree. I have always thought this idea of sending kids away for education is weird.  17 year olds, barely 18 year olds still need a lot of support.  
 

Also, sending kids this age away where they are often financially supported and yet no longer have to answer in any way to their parents seems like a bad combo.  I left home at 17 but I was working and supporting myself in a small attic apartment with my best friend and then within a few months got married. Our parents weren’t supporting us financially but we did have at least my moms emotional support and we had a community of friends etc.  

OTOH, a 22 year old still living at home and working and thinking he is the boss of his step mom is also a bad combo.  So there’s that.

[Amy in NH]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

But doesn't every college have a way for students to run a degree audit and check whether they are on track and what exactly they still need to graduate? How can they be surprised at the last minute? 

Of course the advisor should check too and address that with the students at their semesterly meetings when they plan the coursework (However,  just because I told a student they still need xyz doesn't mean they actually listen). 

I'm a doctoral student, almost finished my dissertation, with one kid finished a Bachelor's 1000+ miles from home (with many struggles), and I did not know until reading your post what a degree audit is.  So, the fact that there are tools doesn't mean even experienced adults know how to access or use them.  High school seniors and college freshmen often have crazy-busy schedules and really don't have hours per day to invest in figuring out the websites and obscure hidden tools in them.  I can't even *find* the complete course schedule for my graduate school on a Google search, their website, or my student portal... I had to ask my advisor for the proper crn to register for this semester.  So, yeah stuff *might* be out there, but no it's not always useful.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Amy in NH
Wrong word

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Doesn't your college send emails to the students about all the logistics and deadlines for housing, placement, immunization, transcripts etc? Coursework related stuff is discussed at advising and registration; don't yours have something like this?

Yes, but it's such a firehouse of information that I think many kids just get overwhelmed. To go from high school, where so much of that stuff is either taken care of for you by the school or parents (or at least where you are given nearly infinite reminders for things you need to handle yourself) to suddenly having to manage everything all at once, with no help, in a totally new environment far from home, often means that things get missed. And if you don't even know what you're missing, it's hard to know how to find it or how to find help to fix it. And you can multiply all that x 1000 for kids with ADHD, who often go from having significant accommodations for executive function issues in HS to suddenly having ZERO support for that in college.

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

But doesn't every college have a way for students to run a degree audit and check whether they are on track and what exactly they still need to graduate? How can they be surprised at the last minute? 

Of course the advisor should check too and address that with the students at their semesterly meetings when they plan the coursework (However,  just because I told a student they still need xyz doesn't mean they actually listen). 

DS's first experience with advising, during orientation, was in an auditorium with hundreds of kids, followed by a quick 10 minute meeting with his advisor for course selection. Since he was armed with a 4-yr plan that listed the courses he wanted, he got exactly the schedule he needed. But there were lots of other kids who had clueless advisors and had not planned things out, and lots of complaints later about kids having been placed in the wrong level classes, not being placed in critical prereq courses (meaning they would not be able to join the normal course sequence for their major), being placed in GE classes that duplicated credits they already had from AP or DE, etc. 

I made sure DS ran his degree audit every semester, and we used that in conjunction with his 4-yr plan to choose courses each semester. But I'm the one who figured out where that was and how to run it, I'm not sure anyone at the university explained that to him, or if they did, it would have gotten lost in the deluge of information he was drowning in at the time. Also, the way the audit program assigns courses to categories seems quite arbitrary, and he frequently had to contact his advisor to have her reassign the courses the way he wanted them, which is not something I imagine most students even consider. So it's also possible that the reason a student is shocked to discover they're short one GE and can't graduate on time is because a course they assumed would be counted in a certain category got counted in different category. That could very well have happened to DS if we hadn't stayed on top of it and explicitly requested that certain courses be reassigned. Judging from comments in the student Reddit group and the parents FB group, it seems a lot of students don't even know how to run a degree audit. I saw one post where the kid said he thought that was something the advisor had to do, because the only time he saw it was when he met with his advisor.

I also see a ton of complaints about advisors being extremely hard to contact and/or giving poor or incorrect advice. DS's teammate who lost his full ride scholarship really got screwed by an advisor who failed to explain that switching to a completely different program meant he would essentially be starting over from scratch as if he were a freshman, even though he would be a junior, and there was no way he could graduate in that major in less than 4 more years. He lost his NCAA eligibility over that, lost the scholarship, and had to drop out.

[matrips]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

Doesn't your college send emails to the students about all the logistics and deadlines for housing, placement, immunization, transcripts etc? Coursework related stuff is discussed at advising and registration; don't yours have something like this?

No, at least not yet.  the information is online somewhere, but there’s an applicant portal, a student portal, an honors portal, and so many places to look.  I have noticed that another school they applied to has a much more straightforward system with good communication, and is easier to manage.

And the first time they meet any advisors is at orientation when they are registering for classes.  And it seems to be a very hurried, just take this kind of thing (standard classes that they may or not want or need). So it is advised by previous parents to go into orientation knowing what you want, with backups etc

Edited January 7, 2023 by matrips

[matrips]

11 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

I did this with all my kids freshman year, figuring out all the classes and Gen Ed's and when to take to make them fit without overload and with preReqs taken into account to finish on time. Sophomore year we checked in, but they did most of the work. By junior year they were flying solo, and even with lots if changes to the original plan (inevitable), they knew what to look for and how to make sure they were on top of everything. 

Yes, and I think many kids can benefit from that.  I know I manage better when I feel prepared and knowledgeable. 

[livetoread]

I planned my oldest's schedule his entire time at college. He wanted me to, I'm good at it, and it worked well. We consulted on things, but I handled the nitty gritty. I did with my youngest their first three years since they were barely managing to keep their head above water. This year they have totally taken charge and don't want my help, which is fine. Big jump in maturity and independence. I'm still running audits to make sure they are on track but won't say anything unless I see a huge problem. Scheduling classes is one of those things that can cost thousands of dollars if not done right, and since it's my money, I'm going to at least monitor it. 

Some kids are ready to manage their lives and adult when they leave, making only a few non-catastrophic mistakes along the way. Some would never make it without intensive support. I know several of us who saw big leaps in maturity with our kids around junior to senior year of college. They never would have made it that far without us doing more than some parents think is appropriate (usually those parents whose kids are managing and only making non-life-changing mistakes). Kids are ready to adult at different times and for some, especially those with ADHD or related issues, getting there can be slooowww. That's okay.

 

 

 

[TCB]

19 hours ago, livetoread said:

Ha, we've white-knuckled college with both our kids.

I could write a long missive, but I'll just say we had to bring our oldest home his Senior year after a severe mental health crisis, and it was the right decision. He did finally managed to graduate, but never went back to living near campus.

Our youngest has struggled every minute of their college experience mentally and academically (after straight As in high school and community college) but we decided to agree to let them stay and fight it out because bringing them home would have meant social isolation and that part has always been good for them at college (after lots of dysfunctional friendships during high school years). There have been some very dark semesters and I don't know if we made the right decision, but just last semester (fourth year) they did well all around so yay. All the issues plus changing majors have added another year on, but it's looking hopeful they will pull it out and graduate. They have great, supportive friends and a strong mental health care team there which factored into our decision. They have absolutely grown in independence and confidence by coming as far as they have, but like I said, there were some white knuckle times and I'm hardly sure we are done with those.

It helped that both kids were about an hour away and we spent many hours driving there to provide support, especially with youngest. We were completely footing the college bill so we had a lot of say, though we tried hard to let them make their own choices around it. 

Really appreciate your post! We are white-knuckling it with our youngest dd right now, 1/2 way through freshman year, so it is encouraging to read about someone much further along in the process.

[Corraleno]

6 hours ago, Soror said:

@Corraleno the thing is your group is self-selecting of the parents of kids who made it. The parents of the kids that don't make it aren't likely to stick around. 

And the kids that aren't making that I know none of it has had to do with not picking the right classes or anything like that. They have involved parents. 

The parents on this forum with kids struggling haven't just left them on their own, flailing along without help. That's what some of these posts come across like. Well, I did this so my kid is fine. A person can do all the things and a kid still not thrive at college. It isn't always the right choice and not because someone dropped the ball or did something wrong.

My dh is in college now and we're well versed on choosing classes, looking at pre-requisites, requirements yada yada. We've been doing it for the last 5 years and it's a hell of a lot more complicated for dh as a non-trad student. All the worries I have about ds making it at college have nothing to do with any of that. That's the easy part to control. There are many more things you can't control. Like whether they have the self-discipline and ability to wake up, go to class, and do the work when away from home. Whether they have mental health issues exacerbated by the stress of being away because even if they like it change is a stress. Whether they fit into the culture of their college or get along with their room mate. Whether or not they will communicate any difficulties with us so we can help them or advocate for themselves.

I definitely did not mean to imply that "not picking the right classes" is the only, or even main, reason kids struggle with the transition to college. Taking over part of that responsibility was simply one of the many ways I tried to reduce the burden on an overwhelmed kid with ADHD. Obviously kids can struggle for many complex reasons, and the dilemma for parents is figuring out (1) how serious the mental health issues are and (2) whether those issues are the cause or the result of the struggles with college life.

For DS, it was both — underlying issues with depression and anxiety were hugely exacerbated by feeling like he was totally over his head trying to manage a full course load and an intense training schedule while drowning in information he could not process and executive function tasks he could not manage. So I provided extensive practical and logistical support for the executive function issues as well as emotional support for feelings of depression, anxiety, failure, etc. There were many many long phone calls and FaceTImes, and as I mentioned in my first post I even flew out to see him several times. Those interventions relieved enough of the stress that he was able to stay in school and do well. I also mentioned in my first post that I realize not all kids are willing to discuss these issues openiy or accept so much help from parents, and that I understand making decisions about keeping them at school or bringing them home can be much harder in those cases.

There was nothing in Quill's OP suggesting that she was only referring to kids whose struggles in college were due to serious mental health issues, so I wanted to point out that it's very common for kids to struggle, even significantly, with the transition to college, and that in many of those cases, providing additional logistical and emotional support (whether those are provided by a parent or by a therapist, ADHD coach, etc.) can often get kids over that initial hump and help them to continue and be successful. Sometimes that's not enough and they really need to just come home. Which path to take is a difficult decision, and I believe that most parents are doing their best with the information they have at the time.

[madteaparty]

10 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

One thing that always strikes me in these discussions is this whole living away for college thing. It seems like it contributes to so many problems - higher debt due to living and accomodation costs, mental health etc issues due to being away from home and network. It’s not that people here don’t ever do that but mostly it’s because they’re rural or their degree is not offered locally. It seems like in the US it’s just the normal thing. It seems nuts to me that kids are expected to figure out independent living and a new education environment and system all at the same time. 

So it’s early days and my kid is thriving away (and so are his friends that have passed through my house, knock wood please god let it continue) but I agree the college set up in America is bizarre. Here we are, driving these kids around, feeding them, they have exactly zero agency in anything (there are exceptions. DS has a friend that up and took himself to france his entire senior year, etc) and now we drop them in these tiny rooms with similarly situated fools, often in the middle of nowhere and now they get to make ALL the decisions? I mean just from a health perspective this communal sort of living is not the best. And our set up is that we have seen him every month (often at a bit of  sacrifice to the parents due to the massive driving). I let him make loads of choices with college application but I absolutely forbid any west coast applications (plenty of schools on the eastern seaboard). 

i will say DS loves it and is thriving and getting good grades in hard classes and  exercising and doing all the wholesome things 🧿but I will tell you, 1. It’s a spectacular cost and 2. I held my breath the entire first semester and am still holding it, waiting for a shoe to spectacularly fall on my head. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by madteaparty

[Shelydon]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

But doesn't every college have a way for students to run a degree audit and check whether they are on track and what exactly they still need to graduate? How can they be surprised at the last minute? 

Of course the advisor should check too and address that with the students at their semesterly meetings when they plan the coursework (However,  just because I told a student they still need xyz doesn't mean they actually listen). 

Not all colleges have a degree audit system. My second kiddo who attends a very large university does have degree audit, but was never told about it. I learned about it from other parents through social media, and we figured out how to access it and use it. She has since taught her friends. Her advisors have been completely useless. Completely. When she goes in for advising they sign her up for classes she has already taken, or classes she does not need for her degree. This past semester the advisor signed her up for four lab classes. Each lab class was three to four hours long once a week and then the lecture portion of each class met three times a week. It was a crazy and completely unnecessary schedule. She called me when she got back from advising and we dropped everything and signed up for a more reasonable class schedule. So.... Well, I'm sure some colleges are set up to help students be successful, that has definitely not been our experience. Students without involved parents, or some other support system really struggle and often end up graduating late because of the issues with poor advising. 

[TexasProud]

48 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

Here we are, driving these kids around, feeding them, they have exactly zero agency in anything (there are exceptions. DS has a friend that up and took himself to france his entire senior year, etc) and now we drop them in these tiny rooms with similarly situated fools, often in the middle of nowhere and now they get to make ALL the decisions?

Ok, I want to comment on this with the caveat that you can do what I did and that doesn't guarantee that they thrive at college.

Ok, I was a very strict mom when the kids were 5 and under. However, as they grew up, my goal was them to have complete agency by the time they were seniors.  All three of my children have told me I did this well. Both boys took all their classes at CC or online AP classes. They decided which classes to take. I helped them first semester junior year buy books, but after that, they filled their Amazon cart and I gave them my credit card number.  They didn't have curfew. Their last two years of high school, I stepped in only if asked or I saw a huge problem. They were very, very independent.  

Before they went away, all of my children- oldest and youngest on their one..middle one me, printed out their degree plans and made a four year plan. (Might have something to do with the fact that I modeled that with how I homeschooled.) We did go in the first advisor meeting, but after that, they just told me what they were doing each semester and I figured they were fine. 

Anyway, agency did NOT start when they were freshmen.  And OP, that may not have been what you meant.  But  each year I strove to do less and less and have my children do more and more.

I still remember oldest's orientation. The speaker said, "Ok, right now your teachers, parents and counselors are doing 80 percent of the work.  You are doing 20 percent. Now that is going to switch, you will do 80 percent."  Oldest looked at me and said, "Huh? We have been doing 90 percent." 

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, madteaparty said:

So it’s early days and my kid is thriving away (and so are his friends that have passed through my house, knock wood please god let it continue) but I agree the college set up in America is bizarre. Here we are, driving these kids around, feeding them, they have exactly zero agency in anything (there are exceptions. DS has a friend that up and took himself to france his entire senior year, etc) and now we drop them in these tiny rooms with similarly situated fools, often in the middle of nowhere and now they get to make ALL the decisions? I mean just from a health perspective this communal sort of living is not the best. And our set up is that we have seen him every month (often at a bit of  sacrifice to the parents due to the massive driving). I let him make loads of choices with college application but I absolutely forbid any west coast applications (plenty of schools on the eastern seaboard). 

i will say DS loves it and is thriving and getting good grades in hard classes and  exercising and doing all the wholesome things 🧿but I will tell you, 1. It’s a spectacular cost and 2. I held my breath the entire first semester and am still holding it, waiting for a shoe to spectacularly fall on my head. 

I completely agree.  It is so weird how dependent high schoolers are, and how completely independent college students are expected to be.

I thought I was sheltering my kid by homeschooling her through middle school, and driving her around so much, but wow.  Her BM high school classmates did not know how to ride a bus, how to figure out a bus schedule, or how to budget their allowances.  They didn’t know not to step into a busy street to pass someone walking slowly on the sidewalk.  They could run on a track or court all day long but did not hike in the wild or walk in their own neighborhoods.  It was surprising.  It’s hard to picture them all thriving in a distant college.

[madteaparty]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

Ok, I want to comment on this with the caveat that you can do what I did and that doesn't guarantee that they thrive at college.

Ok, I was a very strict mom when the kids were 5 and under. However, as they grew up, my goal was them to have complete agency by the time they were seniors.  All three of my children have told me I did this well. Both boys took all their classes at CC or online AP classes. They decided which classes to take. I helped them first semester junior year buy books, but after that, they filled their Amazon cart and I gave them my credit card number.  They didn't have curfew. Their last two years of high school, I stepped in only if asked or I saw a huge problem. They were very, very independent.  

Before they went away, all of my children- oldest and youngest on their one..middle one me, printed out their degree plans and made a four year plan. (Might have something to do with the fact that I modeled that with how I homeschooled.) We did go in the first advisor meeting, but after that, they just told me what they were doing each semester and I figured they were fine. 

Anyway, agency did NOT start when they were freshmen.  And OP, that may not have been what you meant.  But  each year I strove to do less and less and have my children do more and more.

I still remember oldest's orientation. The speaker said, "Ok, right now your teachers, parents and counselors are doing 80 percent of the work.  You are doing 20 percent. Now that is going to switch, you will do 80 percent."  Oldest looked at me and said, "Huh? We have been doing 90 percent." 

My son has taken college classes at a 4 year uni and then a lib arts college since  7th grade. He’s flown internationally alone since before he was 10. He has navigated the transit systems of at least Tokyo, Paris and NYC all alone or with one same age friend.  I stand by my general comment on what happens to the average 18 year old. For one, the public transport in most areas in this country does not lend itself to making decisions and at least here you can’t drive until you’re around 17. 

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Shelydon said:

 Her advisors have been completely useless. Completely. When she goes in for advising they sign her up for classes she has already taken, or classes she does not need for her degree. This past semester the advisor signed her up for four lab classes. Each lab class was three to four hours long once a week and then the lecture portion of each class met three times a week. It was a crazy and completely unnecessary schedule. She called me when she got back from advising and we dropped everything and signed up for a more reasonable class schedule. So.... Well, I'm sure some colleges are set up to help students be successful, that has definitely not been our experience. Students without involved parents, or some other support system really struggle and often end up graduating late because of the issues with poor advising. 

As an advisor who goes above and beyond for her students, this angers me so much. Colleges really need to step up their advising game. I am sorry your daughter had such a horrible experience.

[Terabith]

My oldest is in a very small college, and I am very pleased with it, but I am frustrated with how not transparent a lot of the graduation requirements are, and also, it's impossible to plan courses in advance, because for most classes, there are only one section offered each semester, and freshmen are last to register.  So, my kid wants to major in environmental science.  Intro to Earth Science is a prerequisite to almost ALL courses in the major.  But that class was full first semester, because of upperclassmen using it to fulfill science requirements, and it's not offered second semester.  If my kid can't get into it fall semester of next year, they have to choose another major.  

It's been frustrating, and it doesn't seem like there's much I can do to help.

[Corraleno]

If I could give one bit of advice to parents of kids with executive function issues who plan on attending college, it would be to recognize up front how totally overwhelming the volume of information and tasks is going to be, and to understand that the college is not going to provide ANY accommodations or support for that. If your kid seriously struggles with EF issues, try to get systems and scaffolding set up as much as possible before they leave, and make sure they are either willing to continue working with you, or you can hire someone else they will work with.

I will describe what DS's first semester was like; feel free to skip if it's not relevant to you, and feel free to share it if you know someone with an ADHD kid who is heading to college soon:

During orientation week, I went with DS to the Disability Office to provide the paperwork proving ADHD and severe EF issues and to get him set up with accommodations. They said he could take all his tests in a quiet space in the Disability Center with extra time — but he would need to schedule that in advance, and he would need to submit a separate form for each test, for each class, signed by the professor, by specific deadlines. I asked if he could meet with a disability coordinator on a regular basis to help him manage executive tasks, and the head of the Disability Office literally said "We expect students to be able to handle those tasks themselves by this point; if they can't then they may not be ready for college." I just looked at her and said "So you expect people with executive function disorders to have magically cured themselves by the age of 18???" The idea of making access to testing accommodations for kids with ADHD totally contingent on them being able to manage reams of paperwork for 5 different classes, with different exam schedules and different submission deadlines, seems too absurd to be real, but sadly it was. So I became DS's de facto "disability coordinator," helping him find all the test dates for each of his classes, fill in all the forms in advance, add the accommodation request deadlines to his calendar, remind him to get everything signed and submitted by the deadlines — and then remind him to check his disability portal to make sure the staff had actually scheduled the exams for him because sometimes they flaked! (Apparently the capacity for managing lots of paperwork by strict deadlines is expected of students with disabilities, but not expected of the staff who are supposed to process that paperwork.)

In order to hit the ground running, DS had to learn 3 separate systems he'd never used before: the school's email system, the student portal, and the course management software (Canvas), none of which were integrated with each other. The student portal was incredibly complicated, with many layers of menus and many important functions hidden several layers deep. DS's only prior experience with online course management was with Lukeion and ASU, both of which are extremely well organized, with clear assignments, deadlines, grades, etc., and the organization is consistent across all courses. He was totally unprepared for the anarchic chaos of Canvas, where each professor set up his or her class in a totally different (and often counter-intuitive) way. Only one of 5 classes actually had a syllabus in the menu item labeled Syllabus — in others it was in Home, in Modules, or in Files (and in one case all the files were labeled with random letters and numbers and the syllabus could only be found by opening every file to see what it was). Some professors helpfully listed assignments in the actual Assignments section, while others put assignments in Modules and left the Assignments section blank, and one listed assignment deadlines in the Grades section, but only posted each assignment a few days before it was due. The calendar associated with Canvas only lists assignments that are in a specific section, so DS would sometimes miss deadlines that didn't appear in the calendar because the associated assignment wasn't listed where it should have been. Since he couldn't rely on the Canvas calendar for assignments, I also became his de facto "academic coach," helping him go through the syllabi and all the various components of each class page in Canvas to find all the assignments and due dates and transfer them to iCal.

(Ironically, the lower level and GedEd classes that most freshman are stuck with often have far more assignments and more complicated schedules, in the belief that all these picky little assignments and busy work will help students stay "on track," while upper level courses often just had one weekly or bi-weekly assignment, with consistent deadlines, plus a midterm, final, and research paper or project. I think that's one reason why kids with EF issues often do much better the further along they get, because in addition to having gotten used to the systems by then, upper level coursework is often much easier to manage just because of how it's structured.)

The mandatory freshman comp class was probably the worst organized of all DS's classes: there were 50-60 separate assignments, listed in different sections in Canvas, and all due at different times on different days each week. So one week there might be a first draft due on Tuesday at noon, a discussion post due Thursday at midnight, a second draft due by 6 PM Friday, and a peer review by Sunday at 11 PM, and then the next week there'd be different assignments at different times. That class also required learning two additional bits of software because they had to combine images and text into a stupid interactive online thing. Add four other classes, all with dozens of assignments listed in different random places in Canvas, all due at different times and days throughout the week, and often needing to be submitted in different ways/forms/places.

Then factor in trying to anticipate upcoming deadlines and work around them in order to accommodate varsity competition and travel, and then add figuring out how to use the bus system to get to and from practice each day (with start times and location changing daily), and then add figuring out how the meal system worked (what "points" counted for what at each of a dozen different food places on campus, each of which had different hours on different days, and remembering when points expired or rolled over, etc.), and then add trying to figure out where and from whom to get help when problems come up — and then layer all of that on top of underlying issues with depression and anxiety, and that tsunami of tasks/information/planning was just way beyond what an ADHD kid with serious EF deficits could manage while living on his own for the first time thousands of miles from home.

tl;dr: Kids with ADHD and EF issues will need significant support, at least for the first year or two of college, especially if they are away from home and/or at a large university, and the college is not going to provide ANY of that, so be prepared to provide it yourself or hire someone else to help.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Corraleno

[regentrude]

16 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Ironically, the lower level and GedEd classes that most freshman are stuck with often have far more assignments and more complicated schedules, in the belief that all these picky little assignments and busy work will help students stay "on track,"

I would dearly love to go to a structure like we had when I was a student: one midterm and one comprehensive final exam - no other graded assignments. It would make organization easy but it wouldn't fly with the college administration, because the majority of students would miserably fail if they were not held accountable for small assignments on an ongoing basis. So professors are forced to reward students with points for doing their daily work because they do not have the discipline to study consistently without a carrot. Thanks K-12 for conditioning them like that.  I am not sure that students who have difficulty with EF would do better if the structure were removed and they didn't have to jump through a gazillion hoops but instead were responsible for structuring their own time? 

But I totally agree that Canvas and the portal systems are a pain, and that it sucks that the different components don't talk to each other. Uggh.

Edited January 7, 2023 by regentrude

[livetoread]

Yep what Corraleno said. I was flabbergasted at how complicated it is for students to just figure out what they had to do, when they had to do it, and where to turn it in, let alone actually do the work. There are so many portals and anything can be due at anytime on any day. Back when I was in college and grad school, assignments were listed in the syllabus you got on the first day of class, and nothing was ever due except the day of class when you turned it in to the professor (thesis and dissertation excluded, lol). For awhile at my youngest kid's school, they were using both Blackboard and Canvas. Then professors email on top of that, plus often students were expected to access and comment on other student's work in other areas of goodness knows where. I admit I'm not the most tech savvy, but hearing what they have to navigate makes me want to curl in a ball and whimper and I was a super organized excellent student. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

I would dearly love to go to a structure like we had when I was a student: one midterm and one comprehensive final exam - no other graded assignments. It would make organization easy but it wouldn't fly with the college administration, because the majority of students would miserably fail if they were not held accountable for small assignments on an ongoing basis. So professors are forced to reward students with points for doing their daily work because they do not have the discipline to study consistently without a carrot. Thanks K-12 for conditioning them like that.  I am not sure that students who have difficulty with EF would do better if the structure were removed and they didn't have to jump through a gazillion hoops but instead were responsible for structuring their own time? 

But I totally agree that Canvas and the portal systems are a pain, and that it sucks that the different components don't talk to each other. Uggh.

I think DS's upper level classes were mostly just right — there would be a weekly or biweekly homework assignment, always due at the same time/day, and then there'd be a couple of exams and a final paper/presentation/project. There were enough assignments that one missed deadline or bad grade wouldn't totally tank your final grade, but it was manageable because it was predictable and consistent throughout the semester, and there were usually only 3-4 assignments, in total, due in any given week

The problem with the lower level classes (especially the GEs), was all the completely pointless busy work — weekly discussion posts + at least 3 responses to other students (and then sometimes responses to the people who responded to you), 1-2 paragraph summaries or responses to every. single. reading assignment, peer reviews of others students' summaries, quizzes for every chapter of the textbook, etc. Five classes, each with an average of 3-4 weekly assignments, adds up to a total of 15-20 assignments every single week — all due at random times on different days and submitted in different formats in different places.

I think 3-4 meaningful, productive assignments per week makes sense and is manageable; 15-20 is utterly pointless and completely counter-productive.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Corraleno

[Bootsie]

IME there is a vast difference in what a university thinks they are providing with an "advisor" and what parents think their student advisor is.  It is important to know what the advisor at your student's university is.  I have taught at a school at which all advising is done by faculty within the student's major.  I would have student advisees that I knew from class and I was familiar with their academic performance; I could make recommendations like, I see that you excel at XYZ, have you thought about taking X for an elective?  At other schools, advising is done by non-academics; they have access to the students' records and they know the ins and outs of the university's requirements (which sounds straightforward but suddenly gets complicated when a department makes a change to its degree plan or there is a change to the core curriculum which impacts different students differently).  I find that many parents think of an academic advisor as a personal counselor for the student, who is able to advise a student on everything from particular professors to avoid to career goals and planning and who can intervene and advocate for a student regarding academic work in a class; seldom do advisors play all of those roles.  

[pinball]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

My oldest is in a very small college, and I am very pleased with it, but I am frustrated with how not transparent a lot of the graduation requirements are, and also, it's impossible to plan courses in advance, because for most classes, there are only one section offered each semester, and freshmen are last to register.  So, my kid wants to major in environmental science.  Intro to Earth Science is a prerequisite to almost ALL courses in the major.  But that class was full first semester, because of upperclassmen using it to fulfill science requirements, and it's not offered second semester.  If my kid can't get into it fall semester of next year, they have to choose another major.  

It's been frustrating, and it doesn't seem like there's much I can do to help.

You need to find out how to either “force register” for a class or how the instructor for the next class handles adding students the first week of class.

There might be different ways your kid’s college refers to these options but basically, you can do things like ask the instructor to override the limit of students or ask the instructor if you show up the first week of classes, can you be added to the class. bc sometimes students just don’t show up and instructors automatically drop them and if you don’t know that/aren’t in touch with the instructor, you’d miss an opportunity 

grad requirements should be in the college catalog and are often based on the year you enter the college. The best thing to do is get a copy of the catalog and/or find and print the grad requirements for the year you start.

[Farrar]

9 hours ago, regentrude said:

But doesn't every college have a way for students to run a degree audit and check whether they are on track and what exactly they still need to graduate? How can they be surprised at the last minute? 

Of course the advisor should check too and address that with the students at their semesterly meetings when they plan the coursework (However,  just because I told a student they still need xyz doesn't mean they actually listen). 

I know several people have addressed this, but I have absolutely seen many students not told by any advisor that they did not have the credits to graduate and were short one tiny thing or other, often something that is simply not obvious, like that they could use some credits for both major and gen ed, but not others. Or that some transfer credits counted for some things and not others. Or it's a non-academic requirement. I've even known students who were outright misinformed by advisors that they were in fine shape because the advisors ALSO did not understand the complexity of all the rules for graduation. It's particularly bad when a student has transferred from another school or community college, especially if it's a community college to an out of state or private college.

[Farrar]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned yet or not, but the number one thing I feel like I've seen for kids who end up underwater as soon as they're at a school is choosing a school that was all wrong for them - either because of a scholarship offer or because it was the biggest name or ranked school they got into or maybe for some reason that had nothing to do with the educational path they'd be set on, like location, weather, friends, or something else. Those things aren't trivial, but they can also mislead kids that a school will be a better fit than it turns out to be.

I've gotten absurdly lucky that college has been incredibly good for my kid and he's thriving beyond measure. I think there are some things he and we have done right, but I'm under no illusions that there's a magic formula. It's one part good decisions and support and at least two parts luck.

[Indigo Blue]

I remember our having to stay on top of Every. Little. Thing. beginning with community college. We needed to because if we hadn’t, his transfer track would have been messed up. Same when he transferred. Ds learned quickly it was necessary to follow up on everything that he needed to go in to get sorted out. He learned this lesson then, and it has carried over for him in following up on other things that came up after graduation, such as dealing with the DMV, etc. He learned it isn’t good to assume this or that thing was straightened out. It often wasn’t.

He was also surprised at the quality of instruction in many classes. Older son seemed to fare better in this area with some excellent professors. 
 

And the first thing they tell them at orientation is to “let go” of their parents and for parents to “let go” of them. That this is the time for them to become independent, etc. That’s okay….thanks, but …ummm…I’ll just be around to guide them, and we will decide how much and when to completely hand over the reins. 

It seems it turned out better that way and prevented lots of tangled messes. 
 

Overall, they loved college, though, but in our experience we had to be vigilant. 
 

 

[Shelydon]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

As an advisor who goes above and beyond for her students, this angers me so much. Colleges really need to step up their advising game. I am sorry your daughter had such a horrible experience.

Thanks. I'm truly glad to hear that students and other colleges have a really good advisor to turn to. Fortunately, with everything available online, I am usually able to provide correct advising for specific degree plans. I have become the unofficial advisor of her entire friend group, and so far I'm doing okay 😂.  

[Corraleno]

45 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I know several people have addressed this, but I have absolutely seen many students not told by any advisor that they did not have the credits to graduate and were short one tiny thing or other, often something that is simply not obvious, like that they could use some credits for both major and gen ed, but not others. Or that some transfer credits counted for some things and not others. Or it's a non-academic requirement. I've even known students who were outright misinformed by advisors that they were in fine shape because the advisors ALSO did not understand the complexity of all the rules for graduation. It's particularly bad when a student has transferred from another school or community college, especially if it's a community college to an out of state or private college.

This is one of the areas that we paid really close attention to, and I made sure that I absolutely understood every major/minor/GE/graduation requirement backwards and forwards. And then we used courses that could double-count as much as possible, because there was no way DS was going to be able to take a course overload senior year if he suddenly discovered he was short of credits, and I also didn't want to be stuck paying for an extra semester after his 4 yr scholarships ended (so many of DS's teammates ended up staying for an extra semester, or at least a summer term to make up missing credits).

So, for example, he was able to double-count a course in his major as a Data Analysis GE, and another course that was a prerequisite for his major did triple duty because it could also be counted in two different GE categories. Changing the categories that the degree audit assigned to some of his courses enabled him to complete two separate minors (each of which included a course that doubled as a GE), and he ended up with the exact number of credits he needed in every category. But putting that puzzle together took a lot of planning and foresight, and would not have happened if he'd relied solely on his advisor. 

[Bootsie]

I would encourage parents to offer suggestion, input, support, and guidance when requested, but to be careful about over involvement in day-to-day college life.  While taking care of an issue may keep the student out of a particular mess at the moment, the longer term consequences must be considered.  I see many college students who lack confidence in being able to take care of things and who are terrified if they make a mistake it will be the end of the world.  

I had a student this past semester who was not happy with her B in the class, and wanted a B+.  I talked to the student before she left town in December, explaining the grade.  She scheduled a ZOOM meeting with me once she was home to explain her desire for a B+ again.  I reiterated the reasons for the grade she earned; I outlined the grade appeal process, as stated in the student handbook, which begins by submitting, in writing, an appeal to the chair of the department by the end of January.  I also offered to meet with her again in person at the beginning of the semester in January to review all of her work.  This is a class in the student's major, the student is a junior, and the student is in the honor's college.  Within five minutes of ending the ZOOM meeting with me, the student's mother called the dean's office asking for contact information for the department chair.  The student was just talking to me, so this was not an emergency situation that the mother needed to intervene.  The information of who the department chair (and contact information) is clearly on the university website.  The grade appeal procedure is clearly outlined in the student handbook, which is searchable online.  The parent interveving in this way did not help support the student in finding information or properly navigating the system.  It risks undermining the student's confidence in handling tasks.  And, when the department chair is looking at which student to recommend for an internship, a special scholarship, or some other honr, it may be subtle or subconcious, but this mother's action could have an impact on how this student is viewed as far as maturity, ability to handle herself if a professional situation, etc.