Can we discuss what retirement does to marriage?

[Faith-manor]

My vote is affair. He is setting her up to get rid of her and try to denigrate to the point of no self esteem so she will accept a low ball offer just to get away from him.

This is how my brother treated his first wife when he was on his third affair and last affair before she divorced him. He thought he would get away with it, but she was smart enough to get a good lawyer. My brother was not amused when I rooted for his wife and not him. 

I have only known one person to ever have such a huge personality change without other glaring medical symptoms going with it simultaneously. But I have known four men who acted EXACTLY like this when having affairs and setting up their wives for divorces and hoping to fleece them financially.

Bottom line is she cannot force him to get medically evaluated, but she sure can snoop around his activities and have a P.I. check out their finances, see where the money trail leads. And regardless of the cause, she doesn't have to subject herself to this misery. She should tell him to take a hike, or she should literally ignore him, refuse to do anything for him, get a job so she has some money that is secure, and then put a lawyer on retainer.

In general, retirement can be a rough transition. People need to have plans in place. My aunt went back to work because she couldn't stand having my uncle around 24/7. He turned into this clingy, child like monster who demanded so much constant attention that it exhausted her. He refused to find a hobby, do volunteer work, join a club, etc. In the case of a woman here in town that I know well, she also went back to work. She found that they are just not compatible for that level of companionship. People change over time. She started a second career (her first isn't an option since she took 20 years off for homeschooling).

Mark has worked long, long hours our entire marriage. We are actually, very much best friends though. So I know I am lucky in that regard. Still, we will have a transition to make. We plan on making a really big road trip to areas of the US we have never been immediately after he retires. When we get back, he is going to hang up his shingle for cabinetry work - and I am beginning a 2nd career in aerospace education and will have rocket teams to mentor, events to coordinate. I might teach piano again as well or take up some paid accompanying. This way for several years we are not in each other's hair 24 hours a day.

[marbel]

11 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I seriously doubt he could,cut her off or that he would,  they have a long term marriage with no pre nup…..but she has always trusted him to handle the money… she came to the marriage with nothing…..but he was always accommodating and kind….put her name on all assets as soon as they married etc. it is more his attitude now.

And honestly like I kept telling her……she HAS to communicate with him. Tell him how she feels and ask questions about the money,

 

10 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I realized as I was posting that it sounds like an affair.  I am not saying it is impossible…..I am old enough to know to never say that. Honestly HE is vulnerable if he decides to divorce her.  Their son works for the investment firm that handles a lot of their money and it is not as if he can completely cut her out and cut her off.   
 

My husband doesn’t  make lunch plans for us without consulting me (nor would I for him) but my friends husband is suddenly planning big vacations inviting everyone and their brother…with zero consultation with his wife.  That is not like him.  

If she knows where the funds are held, and she is named as an owner, she doesn't have to ask him anything. She can get information herself. If she has account numbers she can probably set up an online account [ETA: she may not even need the account numbers if her SSN is on the accounts, which is almost certainly is]. Or she can go have a consultation. I mean, she shouldn't have to sneak off to do that; she should tell him she wants a picture of their financial status right now. She has a right to know. She doesn't have to have a deep understanding of investments to be able to look at their accounts, their balances, and activity.  I feel sad for her lack of confidence in herself. At one point you said she isn't afraid of him, but it sure sounds as if she is, if she can't ask him to review their finances with her.

What she needs to remember is that she enabled his 60-hour work weeks by taking care of everything at home. I bet during his working years he never did a load of laundry, shopped for groceries or cooked a meal. Took a kid to the dentist or doctor. Etc, etc. She contributed a lot to his success.  I call BS on the notion that he has been "accommodating and kind" by supporting her financially while she supported him in non-monetary ways.

Edited September 19, 2022 by marbel

[SKL]

It does kind of sound like dementia.  To me it sounds like he is getting paranoid (which is often seen with dementia).  Maybe with all that money he is afraid something is going to happen and his "security" will be lost.  It could also be a legitimate health issue.  And she too might have a health issue. They should both get thoroughly checked out.

She needs to tell him that they both need to know everything about all their assets, medical, how the house runs, the Christmas card / birthday list, and so on, because either of them could predecease the other at any time.

[bolt.]

I'm coming from a place where I've told friends; "You're terrible with setting boundaries" // "You need to talk to him and make it clear that these things are not okay with you" // "It's important that you communicate and stand up for yourself." // "Try some assertive communication."

In 3 out of 3 of those cases: I. Was. Dead. Wrong.

Since then, I have learned that women (even women who seem weak-willed, overly meek, ignorant, and super-accommodating to their own detriment) the women are usually highly skilled experts in the management of their own situations. They usually know *exactly* what will happen if they stand up for themselves. Maybe they haven't done it in years, so they don't 'know' and aren't 'afraid'; but they know viscerally that there are things you don't do in certain relationships, because you won't like what happens afterwards. They have some cause-and-effect instincts. And those instincts are usually perfect for keeping peace and safety at tolerable levels in their relationships.

The women are the ones who already have the skills for hostile territory.

And I'm making trite, silly, risky recommendations from a place of safety.

And it's not fair or right for me to do that.

So, I'm telling you: if this woman thinks her husband is so 'off' right now (and not terribly cooperative before now) that *a team of lawyers* is the right tool for getting reasonable financial disclosure out of him: you really should be considering the possibility that she has *great* instincts, and maybe she really does know what she needs.

I think you should seriously consider letting her take the lead, considering her to be 'the strong one', and respecting her expertise here.

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I'm coming from a place where I've told friends; "You're terrible with setting boundaries" // "You need to talk to him and make it clear that these things are not okay with you" // "It's important that you communicate and stand up for yourself." // "Try some assertive communication."

In 3 out of 3 of those cases: I. Was. Dead. Wrong.

Since then, I have learned that women (even women who seem weak-willed, overly meek, ignorant, and super-accommodating to their own detriment) the women are usually highly skilled experts in the management of their own situations. They usually know *exactly* what will happen if they stand up for themselves. Maybe they haven't done it in years, so they don't 'know' and aren't 'afraid'; but they know viscerally that there are things you don't do in certain relationships, because you won't like what happens afterwards. They have some cause-and-effect instincts. And those instincts are usually perfect for keeping peace and safety at tolerable levels in their relationships.

The women are the ones who already have the skills for hostile territory.

And I'm making trite, silly, risky recommendations from a place of safety.

And it's not fair or right for me to do that.

So, I'm telling you: if this woman thinks her husband is so 'off' right now (and not terribly cooperative before now) that *a team of lawyers* is the right tool for getting reasonable financial disclosure out of him: you really should be considering the possibility that she has *great* instincts, and maybe she really does know what she needs.

I think you should seriously consider letting her take the lead, considering her to be 'the strong one', and respecting her expertise here.

Good points, but she was exactly this way with her cheating XH. Exactly. And they are very very different men. 
I do not think she is in danger. I also don’t think he is planning to leave her due to many many details I am just not able to share here. 
 

I think if she stands up to him he may push back and it may get ugly but at this point I am very worried about her because she is so unhappy. And she has been for about 2 years. 
 

She is about to pass over the threshold of having any love left for him. The only hope is if he understands what he is doing to her. And he can’t know it if she won’t tell him. 

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

He told her he was setting up an irrevocable trust for the grandkids.  She wonders if he can do that without her signature.

Yes, he can absolutely do this without her signature, even if her name is on the account. Transfers to irrevocable trusts are subject to gift tax, though, so he would have to file a gift tax return (even if he is just "charging" the gifts against the lifetime exclusion limits and not paying actual tax). So unless they typically file separately, she would find out about it after the fact (since she would have to sign a joint return), but he wouldn't have to ask her permission to do it before hand.

I noticed you referred to "his daughter" but "their son" — is the daughter from a previous marriage? If so, I think it's highly likely that the daughter is the one pushing for the irrevocable trust, to ensure that she and her kids get the bulk of his money instead of his wife.

If I were in her shoes I would arrange a discreet visit to a good lawyer ASAP to discuss her options, because it sure sounds like her husband is planning to screw her over financially, regardless of whether the cause is an affair or a physical or mental health crisis.

 

[Catwoman]

12 hours ago, Scarlett said:

She lived through years of affairs with her first husband…..and covered over them. Never a word to family or friends.   She has a very difficult time confronting. She doesn’t even know how to go about figuring out the money.  She told me if she asked and he told her she won’t undernsnd way he was saying. , 

If that's what she's saying, she will have no one but herself to blame for not being more informed about their finances.

One of dh's cousins was a very bright woman, but she trusted her dh to handle all of the finances (and it was a fortune!) She was happy because she could do whatever she wanted, and he dealt with all of the money-related stuff. 

And then he died. Suddenly. 

We suspect that even now, years later, there is probably a lot of money she and her kids were never able to locate. She really regretted not having been more involved in money matters, because it really came back to bite her when her dh died. Don't get me wrong -- I blame him for not having kept a list of their accounts and investments and showing her where to find everything, but for all I know, he might have tried and she couldn't be bothered. 

I hope you will do everything you can to help ensure that your friend doesn't end up like that. She sounds like a sweet person and she's got a lot on her plate, but this is just so important. If nothing else, impress on her that all she needs to do right now is ask her dh to make a list of their holdings and investments, so if something happens, she can hire someone to help her deal with all of it. Even their regular financial advisor may not know about things like real estate holdings, safe deposit boxes, and life insurance policies. 

[Scarlett]

don’t quite please 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Scarlett

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, marbel said:

 

If she knows where the funds are held, and she is named as an owner, she doesn't have to ask him anything. She can get information herself. If she has account numbers she can probably set up an online account [ETA: she may not even need the account numbers if her SSN is on the accounts, which is almost certainly is]. Or she can go have a consultation. I mean, she shouldn't have to sneak off to do that; she should tell him she wants a picture of their financial status right now. She has a right to know. She doesn't have to have a deep understanding of investments to be able to look at their accounts, their balances, and activity.  I feel sad for her lack of confidence in herself. At one point you said she isn't afraid of him, but it sure sounds as if she is, if she can't ask him to review their finances with her.

What she needs to remember is that she enabled his 60-hour work weeks by taking care of everything at home. I bet during his working years he never did a load of laundry, shopped for groceries or cooked a meal. Took a kid to the dentist or doctor. Etc, etc. She contributed a lot to his success.  I call BS on the notion that he has been "accommodating and kind" by supporting her financially while she supported him in non-monetary ways.

YES to all of this!!! I agree with every word you posted.

If her dh is really acting like he did all the work for all those years, she should stand up for herself and set him straight on that!!! And she does seem fearful of him, if she is hesitant to ask him to go over the finances with her. (Also, what is wrong with him??? Doesn't he want to make sure his wife is protected and informed, if something happens to him and he dies??? My dh does most of the day-to-day financial stuff for us, but he would never leave me in the dark about where everything is -- and our ds22 is aware of everything, as well, in case (Heaven forbid,) something happened to dh and me at the same time. DS would need to know where all of the accounts are located, so he could get everything changed over into his name, and he would need the real estate titles and the insurance info... the list goes on and on, and it would be terrible if he had to scramble around and try to find things on his own. Our investment broker would help with a lot, but he doesn't handle everything. 

 

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

don’t quote please 

If he is going to be handing out money, she should have a chance to approve it or put a stop to it! Half of that money is hers, and she had better make sure he doesn't forget that! 

Not for anything, but he sounds like an arrogant jerk. It doesn't sound like he was always like that, but maybe he worked so much that she never noticed?

[Scarlett]

5 hours ago, Catwoman said:

If he is going to be handing out money, she should have a chance to approve it or put a stop to it! Half of that money is hers, and she had better make sure he doesn't forget that! 

Not for anything, but he sounds like an arrogant jerk. It doesn't sound like he was always like that, but maybe he worked so much that she never noticed?

 

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Scarlett

[Jean in Newcastle]

You can't fix this for her.  Unless she's got a learning impairment of some kind, there is no way that she wouldn't be able to understand the basics of their finances.  Even if it's X amount is in X account, Y amount is in Y account etc.  So it sounds like there is some learned helplessness there of some kind. 

If she's thinking divorce herself, there are things that people can do to protect themselves.  (As have been talked about on this board many times.  One lawyer could help her with this.  Or a bunch.  But since you have to pay lawyers other than an initial consult, it's probably better if she keeps it simple.

It sounds like there is family dysfunction beyond simple health concerns.  Otherwise she could go to the daughter and SIL, and say "I'm worried about my husband's health and thinking.  Could you help me to convince him to go to the doctor for a checkup?" 

If she's not thinking divorce and it isn't a walking on eggshell DV situation, then she should be able to ask what kind of trust or entitlement has been set aside for her as his wife?    If they are in a community property state, what is she entitled to?  If not, what can she do to make sure that she's taken care of? 

[*****]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

 She told me the other day that he has turned into XYZ (my xh).  When they first got married he was so humble and sweet and felt like he had hit the jackpot with her and the son he thought he would never get and her wonderful extended family.  Now he acts like he is doing her  favor by being with her.

Jekyll and Hyde...likes to control money, projecting...Covert narc?  High profile people are often narcs, right?  And if he is covert, most spouses of one don't realize it until years later. So maybe she is just beginning to see who he really is now that he is home.   But lets home not for real...she is very lucky to have you for a friend though...

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

You can't fix this for her.  Unless she's got a learning impairment of some kind, there is no way that she wouldn't be able to understand the basics of their finances.  Even if it's X amount is in X account, Y amount is in Y account etc.  So it sounds like there is some learned helplessness there of some kind. 

If she's thinking divorce herself, there are things that people can do to protect themselves.  (As have been talked about on this board many times.  One lawyer could help her with this.  Or a bunch.  But since you have to pay lawyers other than an initial consult, it's probably better if she keeps it simple.

It sounds like there is family dysfunction beyond simple health concerns.  Otherwise she could go to the daughter and SIL, and say "I'm worried about my husband's health and thinking.  Could you help me to convince him to go to the doctor for a checkup?" 

If she's not thinking divorce and it isn't a walking on eggshell DV situation, then she should be able to ask what kind of trust or entitlement has been set aside for her as his wife?    If they are in a community property state, what is she entitled to?  If not, what can she do to make sure that she's taken care of? 

I think learned helplessness probably fits.  She is extremely insecure.  She thinks she can’t understand stuff.  She is afraid of looking foolish by asking.  

Edited September 19, 2022 by Scarlett

[Corraleno]

Has she tried to talk to her son about this? I don't understand why she wouldn't at least let him know how she feels, especially since he probably has a much better idea of where all the money is, and I assume he would be just as concerned as she is about the behavior changes as well.

I wouldn't expect the husband's family to be any help at all, since they have a vested interest in keeping the money on "their side" of the family, at her expense. Family relationships can get really ugly when large amounts of money are involved, even if things were cordial before.

 

[Catwoman]

11 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I think learned helplessness probably fits.  She is extremely insecure.  She thinks she can’t understand stuff.  She is afraid of looking foolish by asking.  

I know I can’t fix it for her any more than I could make her leave that cheating xh years ago.  But when she got enough she got enough.  For now she is asking me to be honest with her if this behavior is normal….or if she is the crazy one. And I am strongly encouraging her to go see this counselor. I keep telling her she has got to learn how to be honest with him and stand up for herself.

Also she did indeed get the nerve to ask for a family meeting with him, his dad and his sister.At that meeting she did express that she was concerned about his health because he was acting way different.  The sister especially was HIGHLY offended. So she will get no help there.  

Honestly, I think the family meeting with his side of the family was a pretty stupid idea. Did she really think they would support her?

And if her dh got angry about that... well... I can't exactly blame him. If his wife was concerned about his health, she should have discussed it with him privately, not tried to stage some sort of intervention.

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Honestly, I think the family meeting with his side of the family was a pretty stupid idea. Did she really think they would support her?

And if her dh got angry about that... well... I can't exactly blame him. If his wife was concerned about his health, she should have discussed it with him privately, not tried to stage some sort of intervention.

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

‘

35 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Has she tried to talk to her son about this? I don't understand why she wouldn't at least let him know how she feels, especially since he probably has a much better idea of where all the money is, and I assume he would be just as concerned as she is about the behavior changes as well.

I wouldn't expect the husband's family to be any help at all, since they have a vested interest in keeping the money on "their side" of the family, at her expense. Family relationships can get really ugly when large amounts of money are involved, even if things were cordial before.

 

She told me yesterday she was going to talk to her son about the money.  I hope she will.

[Scarlett]

19 hours ago, regentrude said:

The money thing is weird, but the above sounds like he's projecting the sense of uselessness he feels... he now sees for the first time what's going on at home and it must seem to him that that's really very little compared to what he's been used to. And he probably wonders how that could keep his wife occupied all these years.

Coming back to say, she still does all she ever did. He thinks it is not very much.  And yet he doesn’t life a finger to help her with any of it.,

[Lecka]

I’m just putting this out there.

If this husband is being a jerk, he could have been planting seeds with the son to make the mom sound like she is unreasonable or irrational.

The act of giving him money already could be manipulative in some way that way, like — part “he’s not being that way because look he gave the son money” and part — it can just manipulate people to have been given money. 
 

I hope that’s not the case, but there is nothing that says adult children always see things clearly.  And this is the dad he’s known since age 2, it may not be the case that he has a natural loyalty to his mom. 

[regentrude]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Coming back to say, she still does all she ever did. He thinks it is not very much.  And yet he doesn’t life a finger to help her with any of it.,

Well, if he thinks it's not much, it would be logical that he sees no need to help.
Running a normal household for a handful of adults, in a house with electricity and running hot water and labor saving devices, isn't really very much work. Most folks who work full-time jobs do it on the side. (Things are, of course, different with raising kids or running a farm - but I assume it's just household stuff? ) And if he worked a high-powered job, his attitude makes perfect sense.

ETA: And yes, he absolutely should take over a share now that he no longer works. But that, too, can be a thorny issue when the retired husband suddenly wants to do things his way and not the housewife's way

Edited September 19, 2022 by regentrude

[Laurel-in-CA]

Regardless of the husband's problem, it seems your friend needs to see a counselor for her own benefit. Perhaps a third party can best help her, because she needs some very frank talk and help with restructuring her thinking habits as well as her words and actions. Or she needs to decide she is unsafe, financially at least, and take the courage to do something about it. That could be anything from her own meeting with financial people (it's their JOB to explain the stuff) to taking a simple finances class through community education to start with. Often people who've kept up with "the latest" through work-based training look down on those who have learned by doing and kept doing without pursuing outside training. I hate it that practical abilities are often not recognized, nor the sheer strength it takes to survive and recover from major illnesses.

DH was off work for most of 2020 and part of 2021 and he now works from home. We try hard to be in separate rooms most of his "office hours," and that helps us not distract or criticize each other. When he was laid off he looked for other things to do -- Meals on Wheels, coaching his hobby sports (parks & recs class teaching and private lessons), just SOMETHING to get him out of the house. He's more of a people person than I am and he needs the outlet. Maybe a gym membership would help the husband work off some of his issues? Or maybe he could take up something he does badly, to humble him a bit? (Tongue in cheek there.)

All my sympathies to her! The only time dh has done the finances here was when I was pregnant and couldn't deal with the stress of the very tight budget at the time.

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Well, if he thinks it's not much, it would be logical that he sees no need to help.
Running a normal household for a handful of adults, in a house with electricity and running hot water and labor saving devices, isn't really very much work. Most folks who work full-time jobs do it on the side. (Things are, of course, different with raising kids or running a farm - but I assume it's just household stuff? ) And if he worked a high-powered job, his attitude makes perfect sense.

ETA: And yes, he absolutely should take over a share now that he no longer works. But that, too, can be a thorny issue when the retired husband suddenly wants to do things his way and not the housewife's way

It may not be a lot to you but she is not well. Her energy level is about half his. And it is a very large home. Even just overseeing it all is a lot. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Scarlett

[Lecka]

Some people do not like illness or signs of weakness and will turn on people who are sick.  I hope it’s not that, but it’s one of those things where sometimes the answer is someone is being a jerk.  

[Arcadia]

Since your friend’s husband quite recently come into wealth, it could be his daughter instigating instead of him having an affair. Humans are irrational and the daughter may feel her child/children is/are entitled to more, hence the irrevocable trust for grandchildren. Or the daughter is worried that your friend’s illness would eat into her inheritance. 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Since your friend’s husband quite recently come into wealth, it could be his daughter instigating instead of him having an affair. Humans are irrational and the daughter may feel her child/children is/are entitled to more, hence the irrevocable trust for grandchildren. Or the daughter is worried that your friend’s illness would eat into her inheritance. 

She has been diagnosed for 20 years…..and the wealth isn’t that recent…..probably 10 years now.  

[Scarlett]

57 minutes ago, Laurel-in-CA said:

Regardless of the husband's problem, it seems your friend needs to see a counselor for her own benefit. Perhaps a third party can best help her, because she needs some very frank talk and help with restructuring her thinking habits as well as her words and actions. Or she needs to decide she is unsafe, financially at least, and take the courage to do something about it. That could be anything from her own meeting with financial people (it's their JOB to explain the stuff) to taking a simple finances class through community education to start with.

I agree with this.

[Arcadia]

11 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

She has been diagnosed for 20 years…..and the wealth isn’t that recent…..probably 10 years now.  

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought her health worsened during the pandemic and the large increase in wealth was on retirement.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Well, if he thinks it's not much, it would be logical that he sees no need to help.
Running a normal household for a handful of adults, in a house with electricity and running hot water and labor saving devices, isn't really very much work. Most folks who work full-time jobs do it on the side. (Things are, of course, different with raising kids or running a farm - but I assume it's just household stuff? ) And if he worked a high-powered job, his attitude makes perfect sense.

ETA: And yes, he absolutely should take over a share now that he no longer works. But that, too, can be a thorny issue when the retired husband suddenly wants to do things his way and not the housewife's way

She has incurable cancer, correct?  Most people I know with cancer are not exactly running around juggling all the chores with unlimited energy . 

[Scarlett]

31 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought her health worsened during the pandemic and the large increase in wealth was on retirement.  

Sorry it is confusing, but the massive wealth came and he kept working as a consultant.

[Catwoman]

41 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Sorry it is confusing, but the massive wealth came and he kept working as a consultant.

If they have massive wealth and she has cancer, why is she doing any work at all around the house? Certainly they can hire help to cook and clean for her.

[Scarlett]

34 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

If they have massive wealth and she has cancer, why is she doing any work at all around the house? Certainly they can hire help to cook and clean for her.

Good question.  She hires the majority of the weekly cleaning, but he still expects her to cook for him several times a week.  He is a very early riser…like 5-6 a.m….and she prefers to sleep until about 8…..and then he is annoyed that she doesn’t cook him breakfast.  

[Catwoman]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Good question.  She hires the majority of the weekly cleaning, but he still expects her to cook for him several times a week.  He is a very early riser…like 5-6 a.m….and she prefers to sleep until about 8…..and then he is annoyed that she doesn’t cook him breakfast.  

Why doesn’t she just hire full time, live-in help to do the cooking and cleaning? 

Her dh sounds like a spoiled jerk, but has she always been a doormat and done whatever he told her to do? Why isn’t she standing up for herself? 

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Why doesn’t she just hire full time, live-in help to do the cooking and cleaning? 

Her dh sounds like a spoiled jerk, but has she always been a doormat and done whatever he told her to do? Why isn’t she standing up for herself? 

I don’t know.  But I don’t think she would like live in help.  What she would like is reasonableness. A 57 year old woman and 62 year old man don’t need big meals every night.  And for breakfast he is capable of cooking himself a couple of eggs.  Or heating up the single portion breakfast casserole she cooks and freezes for him.  It is like he just needs her to do things for him.  

[Katy]

Something isn't adding up here.  If he asked her to talk to you he probably suspects SHE'S the one acting crazy and figures you'll see that and get her calmed down.

Maybe they both need neurological exams.

ETA: you could probably get a lawyer to argue for neurological exams just to make sure the estate can't be changed in probate by a judge who is sure no one in their right mind would have arranged things in whatever way.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Katy

[Clemsondana]

18 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t know.  But I don’t think she would like live in help.  What she would like is reasonableness. A 57 year old woman and 62 year old man don’t need big meals every night.  And for breakfast he is capable of cooking himself a couple of eggs.  Or heating up the single portion breakfast casserole she cooks and freezes for him.  It is like he just needs her to do things for him.  

Is this something like his love language being acts of service, only now that he's home all the time he wants to be served all the time, while when he was working then just one or 2 things was enough?  I've seen variations of this with other newly retired men, though, where they almost have an attitude of 'Well, you've got nothing better to do, so why not fix my breakfast?' instead of thinking 'Now that I'm retired I don't do anything...maybe wife would like to semi-retire, too, so we could hire help/split chores/cut back on daily expectations'. 

Also, the switch from being a boss to being at home is huge.  Spouse worked for a company that required employees to take a multi-week sabbatical every so many years.  We took a few trips during that time, which was great.  But, the 'down time at home' portion was rough.  I'm more assertive than your friend and finally said something along the lines of 'You may be used to having somebody to tell what to do, but that person can not be me.  I've been doing this for 20 years, so you are welcome to help but I haven't suddenly forgotten when to do laundry or start dinner.' 

I've learned that we, and some other couples that we know, have people with different temperaments.  Some people have an almost anxious need to be doing something all the time, and they want everybody to be the same level of busy.  Other people are more mellow, and are content to lay in the hammock with a book for a few hours.  Obviously we need both types of people, but they have to learn to manage it.  I know that at one point we were planning a sightseeing vacation and spouse was slotting in activities and I finally said 'We are traveling with kids.  Do you think that they can do this?  And if we manage it, do you think anybody will actually be enjoying themselves?'  We adjusted, with some sightseeing interspersed with beaches or other more relaxing activities.  It turned out to be a great trip, but it's kind of become an allegory for us since the same issues apply to everyday life at our house.  Sometimes we compromise, and sometimes we've learned to live and let live - spouse can run around frantically doing stuff while I enjoy the hammock.      

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Clemsondana said:

Is this something like his love language being acts of service, only now that he's home all the time he wants to be served all the time, while when he was working then just one or 2 things was enough?  I've seen variations of this with other newly retired men, though, where they almost have an attitude of 'Well, you've got nothing better to do, so why not fix my breakfast?' instead of thinking 'Now that I'm retired I don't do anything...maybe wife would like to semi-retire, too, so we could hire help/split chores/cut back on daily expectations'. 

Also, the switch from being a boss to being at home is huge.  Spouse worked for a company that required employees to take a multi-week sabbatical every so many years.  We took a few trips during that time, which was great.  But, the 'down time at home' portion was rough.  I'm more assertive than your friend and finally said something along the lines of 'You may be used to having somebody to tell what to do, but that person can not be me.  I've been doing this for 20 years, so you are welcome to help but I haven't suddenly forgotten when to do laundry or start dinner.' 

I've learned that we, and some other couples that we know, have people with different temperaments.  Some people have an almost anxious need to be doing something all the time, and they want everybody to be the same level of busy.  Other people are more mellow, and are content to lay in the hammock with a book for a few hours.  Obviously we need both types of people, but they have to learn to manage it.  I know that at one point we were planning a sightseeing vacation and spouse was slotting in activities and I finally said 'We are traveling with kids.  Do you think that they can do this?  And if we manage it, do you think anybody will actually be enjoying themselves?'  We adjusted, with some sightseeing interspersed with beaches or other more relaxing activities.  It turned out to be a great trip, but it's kind of become an allegory for us since the same issues apply to everyday life at our house.  Sometimes we compromise, and sometimes we've learned to live and let live - spouse can run around frantically doing stuff while I enjoy the hammock.      

I think this is the best summary of it so far.

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, Katy said:

Something isn't adding up here.  If he asked her to talk to you he probably suspects SHE'S the one acting crazy and figures you'll see that and get her calmed down.

Maybe they both need neurological exams.

ETA: you could probably get a lawyer to argue for neurological exams just to make sure the estate can't be changed in probate by a judge who is sure no one in their right mind would have arranged things in whatever way.

Yes he absolutely thinks she is being unreasonable……but even after talking to him I don’t think she is.  She isn’t perfect…..but he is just not the same man he was. 

[Catwoman]

55 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t know.  But I don’t think she would like live in help.  What she would like is reasonableness. A 57 year old woman and 62 year old man don’t need big meals every night.  And for breakfast he is capable of cooking himself a couple of eggs.  Or heating up the single portion breakfast casserole she cooks and freezes for him.  It is like he just needs her to do things for him.  

What happens when she tells him where he can stick his unreasonable demands? (And if she's not being assertive about this, he's never going to change. If she keeps grudgingly doing what he asks, he is only going to demand more of her.)

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm against your friend in all of this -- I just feel like I want to tell her to get up her nerve and tell him exactly how she feels, and let him know she isn't his personal maid -- and that she should also let him know that if he threatens her and says all of the money belongs to him, maybe it's time to tell him that a judge might not see it that way. She is being way too nice about this! 

[Arcadia]

56 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

 And for breakfast he is capable of cooking himself a couple of eggs.  Or heating up the single portion breakfast casserole she cooks and freezes for him.  It is like he just needs her to do things for him.  

At one of my former workplace, my department secretary would buy breakfast and run the coffeemaker when she steps into office at 7:30am. Work official start time was 8:15am. My boss then was very used to having coffee and breakfast ready when he step into office. He probably missed that “morning ritual” when he retired.

[Lecka]

Now it sounds like he is resentful about what his life if like now, and blames it on her?

I feel like I have totally seen, and get, situations where a man wants a certain level of care-taking and it just depends on how interested the woman is in providing it.

I think I have seen people compromise maybe by focusing on one thing that works for both of them.

I also feel like sometimes it seems to result in one person just being a complainer and the other person either appeasing that person or setting boundaries and/or ignoring them to some extent.

This situation just doesn’t sound like that to me, though, like — if that was it, it would not be concerning and she wouldn’t have the additional concerns. 

It makes me wonder if much is known about his divorce from his first wife.  
 

I also feel like — sometimes the only way to deal with people who will run over others if they have a chance, is to stand up to them.  And sometimes standing up to them is a poor choice.  And sometimes people like that have chosen someone who will struggle to stand up to them, in the first place.  But sometimes the person just needs to have someone stand up to them, because they just don’t think about how the other person is experiencing things, otherwise.

 

But at the same time, there is a lot of fault on the side of someone who has gotten to be 62 years old and doesn’t “know better” as far as how to treat others and have a kind relationship with a spouse.  I think there are a lot of people who realize and address areas where they are too intense and need to temper their personality or expectations, in some way, when they are younger, and then for people who don’t do that, they have had the same opportunities as everyone else and not done so.

 

But if there are hints he acted this way with his first wife, I would be extremely concerned.  It can be impossible to see this when you are only hearing one side of things, and you have never seen that side of the husband.  But if it seems like there are any similarities starting, I would be extremely concerned.  

If not, I think it’s good news, that at least it doesn’t seem that way!

[Scarlett]

Nm

Edited February 7, 2023 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

9 hours ago, Catwoman said:

What happens when she tells him where he can stick his unreasonable demands? (And if she's not being assertive about this, he's never going to change. If she keeps grudgingly doing what he asks, he is only going to demand more of her.)

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm against your friend in all of this -- I just feel like I want to tell her to get up her nerve and tell him exactly how she feels, and let him know she isn't his personal maid -- and that she should also let him know that if he threatens her and says all of the money belongs to him, maybe it's time to tell him that a judge might not see it that way. She is being way too nice about this! 

Sometimes people only understand that their spouse won’t keep taking it anymore when they actually stop taking it.  My xh and his affairs.  He did not fully ‘get it’ until we were divorced and I had remarried.  I know that sounds stupid but he actually told a good friend of ours that he always thought we would get back together.  The difference is that in my marriage….well my personality in general is that I communicate.  I told him over and over I would not tolerate his cheating.  He just did not believe me.  
 

Hopefully my friend’s husband will ‘get’ how unhappy she is.  But she has to communicate with him.  Very directly. 

[Lecka]

I don’t know what it is about him, but my dad can be a great guy to people he’s close to, and then he just turns on people.  I have seen him do it.  However he keeps friends at the same time.  And, he has had long periods where as far as I know, he really was not doing it for years and years (like, for ten years).

And he kept many friends after the divorce from my mom.

Some of their couple friends continued to see him because the two men were friends and the men didn’t have very many friends or were just particularly close.

Some of their wives knew how my dad had been, and never said anything to my step-mom.

And then in their case, they saw those friends but the wives didn’t become close friends to my step-mom.  They never said anything, and after a few years when it seems like things are really different — why would they.  
 

My Dad never turned on my step-mom but by the time I was about 25 I know she had witnessed this kind of behavior.  They were together since I was 4.  My step-mom was so shocked and thought surely he wasn’t really going to act this way or he wouldn’t double-down when he had the chance to change course.  Well — he did!  My dad turned on the husband in one do their closest couple friends, and then my step-mom remained friends with the wife from the couple friend, and it was just so stupid and it was all on my dad’s side.  It was very awkward for my step-mom.  After a couple of years  of her seeing it she knew he could act that way.  She ended up inheriting money and kept it separate from my dad.  Which turned out to be good, because he turned against my step-sister and she is the one who inherited the money since it was from their family (my step-mom’s family).  I promise my dad would have screwed her over with delight if he could have, because that’s how he is after he turns on people.  But if you don’t know him to be this way, it can be hard to see it.  
 

And then I see it, but one of my sisters never did, because she never had any reason to examine his behavior, and she never really saw this side of him, so when she is aware of him acting this way she thinks it is the other person’s fault.  

[hshibley]

How did she become privy to the text messages between her husband and his sister? Her husband should be able to vent privately with someone much like she is venting with you. 
 

Two things that stick out to me:

1. No matter how supposedly wealthy they are they are very young to retire. They could easily plow through a fortune and run out of money in the next 30+ years that they will be retired. Having cleaning help etc for just a couple of adults seems excessive. He’s probably seeing for the first time how much extra time she has and how little she does. Setting up trusts now makes sense if you want to insure that money is passed along to the next generation. 
 

2. Given all of her communication issues she’s not really being a partner to her husband. 

[Lecka]

I’m going to add my dad had some social and career standing in our town, and he is also very personable.  
 

As unlikely as it might sound — he was also popular for playing golf and similar things.  If men wanted to still golf with him, their wives were mostly not in a situation to say “don’t, he treated my friend so poorly.”  And then  nothing changed about that, and I would say he sometimes saw these people as couples with my step-mom, but mostly he did see the men for golfing or something like that that was all men.  
 

And then some people did side with my mom and limit contact with him afterward, but he wasn’t someone people would want to make mad, and why would they?  And why would my step-mom meet them?  And if they did, why would any of them say blunt things to my step-mom?

 

[Scarlett]

21 minutes ago, hshibley said:

How did she become privy to the text messages between her husband and his sister? Her husband should be able to vent privately with someone much like she is venting with you. 
 

Two things that stick out to me:

1. No matter how supposedly wealthy they are they are very young to retire. They could easily plow through a fortune and run out of money in the next 30+ years that they will be retired. Having cleaning help etc for just a couple of adults seems excessive. He’s probably seeing for the first time how much extra time she has and how little she does. Setting up trusts now makes sense if you want to insure that money is passed along to the next generation. 
 

2. Given all of her communication issues she’s not really being a partner to her husband. 

Well he is 62.  That is not really that young to retire.  They are no where close to ‘plowing through’ their wealth.  They really do not live extravagantly…..with the exception of his extensive car collection. He has always lived below his means….and it isn’t supposed wealth.  It is wealth.  The kind that changes people and those around them.  I feared this type of thing for them and it seems to have come true. 
 

And setting up,trusts funds is not so much the issue as him running over her and not consulting her on her wishes about that and other things.  
 

You might have missed it but she has an incurable cancer that takes a lot of her strength.  If he wants to clean their 6000 sf house instead of hiring it done he could do that.  He does nothing around the house.  Nothing.  She is still doing almost 100% of what she always did.  All laundry and household and cooking and errands and dog care and keeping the outside decks cleaned and flower beds weeded.  He works out in their home gym, has lunch with his daughter or grandkids, looks at their investments and then complains that she did not offer him dinner.  Why isn’t he offering her dinner?.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

24 minutes ago, hshibley said:

How did she become privy to the text messages between her husband and his sister? Her husband should be able to vent privately with someone much like she is venting with you. 
 

 

She picked up his tablet and read it.  They have that kind of understanding due to the massive cheating in her first marriage.  
 

And she did not vent to me until he requested she tell me about their issue.  She probably still would not have told me anything.  She is extremely loyal…to her detriment sometimes.  But I am glad she did because she is very very depressed and unhappy.  

[marbel]

16 minutes ago, hshibley said:

No matter how supposedly wealthy they are they are very young to retire.

I think she is 57 and he is 62. She has had cancer for 20+ years I think? 

Anyway, I am not in this position but lots of people who have carefully managed their finances retire at these ages. I have had friends who worked in high tech who were careful with stock options, IPOs, worked long and hard, and were out by 55. They have their 401ks and other investments set. Scarlett's friend could be in a similar position.

I feel bad for both people in this case. She seems like she has very low self-esteem and has been fighting cancer for years. I don't think her symptoms have been mentioned but it may be that keeping up a big house is too much for her. Her husband may be floundering now that he is retired after such a high-powered career with no apparent planning for life after retirement. Not that I am in a position to advise him but he might do well to take up some volunteer work; there is at least one organization for former executives to share their business expertise with young entrepreneurs. Of course that may not be what's needed at all. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, marbel said:

I think she is 57 and he is 62. She has had cancer for 20+ years I think? 

Anyway, I am not in this position but lots of people who have carefully managed their finances retire at these ages. I have had friends who worked in high tech who were careful with stock options, IPOs, worked long and hard, and were out by 55. They have their 401ks and other investments set. Scarlett's friend could be in a similar position.

I feel bad for both people in this case. She seems like she has very low self-esteem and has been fighting cancer for years. I don't think her symptoms have been mentioned but it may be that keeping up a big house is too much for her. Her husband may be floundering now that he is retired after such a high-powered career with no apparent planning for life after retirement. Not that I am in a position to advise him but he might do well to take up some volunteer work; there is at least one organization for former executives to share their business expertise with young entrepreneurs. Of course that may not be what's needed at all. 

Yes, honestly I do feel sorry for him in ways too.  It cannot be easy feeling torn between your adult daughter and FOO and your wife.  He feels guilt over his daughter being child of divorce.  But the bottom line is his priority is his wife.  Or should be.  And now he has created a nightmare situation. 
 

He does do quite a bit of volunteering…….but volunteers don’t get the accolades that employees give you or peer groups.