Can we discuss what retirement does to marriage?

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

I hope things work out for them!  And if not for them, for her.  Since she’s your friend, and he’s the one who has changed.  But I hope their relationship will go back to how it was before.  I think it is possible!

 

Man, I can’t help thinking, the family compound thing often sounds so good but just doesn’t always work out.  It’s too bad, though.  

I hope so, too! I think they both really need to work on their communication skills, so they can get their differences out in the open and have some productive discussions. They aren’t going to solve anything by complaining about each other to others. She should be discussing her concerns with her dh instead of with Scarlett, and he should be talking to his wife instead of complaining to his dd and his sister. 

[Scarlett]

7 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Are you sure he has changed, or could it be that they are spending more time together and they’re starting to get on each other’s nerves? It would be easy for both of them to start noticing more of each other’s quirks and flaws now that he is retired and they see a lot more of each other than when he was working. 

That is possible. 

[Scarlett]

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Edited February 9, 2023 by Scarlett

[Catwoman]

Thanks for the update, @Scarlett — I hope everything works out between your friend and her dh. I’m so glad she took your advice and started seeing the therapist, and it’s very encouraging that her dh made an appointment, too.

[Scarlett]

On 11/12/2022 at 7:22 AM, Catwoman said:

Thanks for the update, @Scarlett — I hope everything works out between your friend and her dh. I’m so glad she took your advice and started seeing the therapist, and it’s very encouraging that her dh made an appointment, too.

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Edited February 9, 2023 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

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Edited February 9, 2023 by Scarlett

[Annie G]

That stinks for your friend! Her dh has heard (from a professional) that everything is fine. And she has no more clarity on her financial situation or respect for her feelings about travel and investments. 
Ugh. Just ugh.

[YaelAldrich]

This is a good example of a not-good therapist. Sadly there are bunches of them out there. I hope she can have those conversations with her husband. 

[Grace Hopper]

Did she and he see the therapist together, or did he just see the therapist on his own? Because if he saw the therapist by himself, and then the therapist seemed to have an attitude of blowing off your friend’s concerns, I think he put one over on the therapist.

 

i’m not sure if your friend is to this point, but I would probably want to hire a lawyer, and draw up some papers with asks that she could agree to for protecting herself in the event of his death or divorce, and then just present him with the papers. That would be one way to get the conversation going if she’s not just resigned to spending the rest of their life together walking on eggshells and unsure of her security once he passes. But that’s just me. I’m kind of a force-the-conversation kinda gal. And while we are only getting one side of a third-hand story, as described that seems no way to live. 
 

 

[WildflowerMom]

When you say she’s trying to get up the nerve to talk to him…. Does that mean she’s afraid?   

[prairiewindmomma]

So, to clarify, five months have passed and she is still clueless about their finances. 
 

Is she signing off on a joint tax filing each year? That at least would give her an idea about income and income sources.

[Scarlett]

On 2/7/2023 at 11:53 AM, Grace Hopper said:

Did she and he see the therapist together, or did he just see the therapist on his own? Because if he saw the therapist by himself, and then the therapist seemed to have an attitude of blowing off your friend’s concerns, I think he put one over on the therapist.

 

i’m not sure if your friend is to this point, but I would probably want to hire a lawyer, and draw up some papers with asks that she could agree to for protecting herself in the event of his death or divorce, and then just present him with the papers. That would be one way to get the conversation going if she’s not just resigned to spending the rest of their life together walking on eggshells and unsure of her security once he passes. But that’s just me. I’m kind of a force-the-conversation kinda gal. And while we are only getting one side of a third-hand story, as described that seems no way to live. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, WildflowerMom said:

When you say she’s trying to get up the nerve to talk to him…. Does that mean she’s afraid?   

Not physically. She is just nervous to talk to him because he talks down to her, gets irritated or both and then she gets angry. 

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

So, to clarify, five months have passed and she is still clueless about their finances. 
 

Is she signing off on a joint tax filing each year? That at least would give her an idea about income and income sources.

Mostly correct.  

[Grace Hopper]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

She is going to call the therapist back and try to get some clarification.  If the therapist just doesn’t want to do marriage counseling ( even though she advertises that she does 🤷🏻‍♀️) then maybe therapist can at least recommend a MC. I think friend should keep seeing this therapist individually at the least.  

But if the husband has seen the same therapist privately, said a bunch of stuff to discredit your friend, can the friend still trust the therapist to be seeking your friend’s best interest?

I’m sure she still needs a therapist. She needs one she can trust, one that has not been misdirected by a narcissist (is that possibly part of the issue?). 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Grace Hopper said:

But if the husband has seen the same therapist privately, said a bunch of stuff to discredit your friend, can the friend still trust the therapist to be seeking your friend’s best interest?

I’m sure she still needs a therapist. She needs one she can trust, one that has not been misdirected by a narcissist (is that possibly part of the issue?). 

I don’t think he is a narcissist. But yes he could have completely snowed the therapist with his version.

[prairiewindmomma]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Not physically. She is just nervous to talk to him because he talks down to her, gets irritated or both and then she gets angry. 

Mostly correct.  

You can be emotionally afraid to talk to someone. I think she is afraid to talk to her husband. Abusive behaviors don’t have to be physical to be abusive.

[Grace Hopper]

To clarify and ask for correction - I’ve not had MC, so I’m not sure what’s common practice. Do MCs often spend time with couples separately or is it typically joint counseling?

 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Grace Hopper said:

To clarify and ask for correction - I’ve not had MC, so I’m not sure what’s common practice. Do MCs often spend time with couples separately or is it typically joint counseling?

 

Beats me. She did tell my friend she wanted to meet with them separately first.

[Grace Hopper]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t think he is a narcissist. But yes he could have completely snowed the therapist with his version.

Yeah and if he is rich and influential in the community that could maybe cause a therapist to become biased (even unconsciously).

What’s friend’s worst possible outcome? I don’t mean emotionally wrt a failed marriage, but if he divorces her? Does she have any financial security whatsoever? Does she have any dependents she’d be worrying about supporting? Chronic health issues she really needs insurance coverage for?

I may be a lot more headstrong than others, but if I were an otherwise unfettered grown woman I would lay it all on the line to have a frank conversation. This guy is, if nothing else, a bully who appears to regularly intimidate her through aggressive speech. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Grace Hopper said:

Yeah and if he is rich and influential in the community that could maybe cause a therapist to become biased (even unconsciously).

What’s friend’s worst possible outcome? I don’t mean emotionally wrt a failed marriage, but if he divorces her? Does she have any financial security whatsoever? Does she have any dependents she’d be worrying about supporting? Chronic health issues she really needs insurance coverage for?

I may be a lot more headstrong than others, but if I were an otherwise unfettered grown woman I would lay it all on the line to have a frank conversation. This guy is, if nothing else, a bully who appears to regularly intimidate her through aggressive speech. 

The therapist is not local.  
 

Yes I am more headstrong too. I got on line and looked up their real estate (just in the county they live in )and screen shot it to her. It mostly looked like she would expect but she has questions…..so I hope she will ask him.

[bolt.]

Is it possible that this man is simply confident and independent minded -- and has no idea his wife is discontent?

[Grace Hopper]

5 minutes ago, bolt. said:

Is it possible that this man is simply confident and independent minded -- and has no idea his wife is discontent?

Good question!

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, bolt. said:

Is it possible that this man is simply confident and independent minded -- and has no idea his wife is discontent?

I definitely think he has no idea how unhappy she is.

[Arcadia]

41 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Is she signing off on a joint tax filing each year? That at least would give her an idea about income and income sources.

If efiling with the same tax software every year, they don’t even ask you to electronically sign. My husband doesn’t bother to look though I do give him the pdf copy of the tax returns every year. 

7 minutes ago, bolt. said:

Is it possible that this man is simply confident and independent minded -- and has no idea his wife is discontent?

The condescending part makes the guy sound egoistic and self centered instead of just being confident and independent minded.

[bolt.]

2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

The condescending part makes the guy sound egoistic and self centered instead of just being confident and independent minded.

I've often had the experience of accidentally sounding condescending simply because I had no idea what a person "already knows" about a topic, so I start at the beginning and convey the basics or I ask, "Are you already familiar with xyz?"

Of course, someone who already knows the basics would find that condescending... but I don't know how to avoid it aside from correctly guessing what level to start at.

In this case we are told that the wife believes that she knows "nothing" (or nearly nothing) about their finances... so I don't understand how he could even begin an explanation without coming off at least a little condescending. Especially if the wife felt sensitive and anxious about things already.

[Scarlett]

Just now, bolt. said:

I've often had the experience of accidentally sounding condescending simply because I had no idea what a person "already knows" about a topic, so I start at the beginning and convey the basics or I ask, "Are you already familiar with xyz?"

Of course, someone who already knows the basics would find that condescending... but I don't know how to avoid it aside from correctly guessing what level to start at.

In this case we are told that the wife believes that she knows "nothing" (or nearly nothing) about their finances... so I don't understand how he could even begin an explanation without coming off at least a little condescending. Especially if the wife felt sensitive and anxious about things already.

Well, maybe condescending was the wrong word choice.  But when she expressed concern about an overseas investment his response was ‘I have done a pretty good job so far’. 

[bolt.]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well, maybe condescending was the wrong word choice.  But when she expressed concern about an overseas investment his response was ‘I have done a pretty good job so far’. 

Well, yeah. If they've been together for decades, and he's been investing at a professional level for decades, and this is the first she's said boo about anything -- I don't find that to be a terrible first response to an armature who usually isn't even a aware spectator "expressing concern".

So he considers himself competent. Fair enough. He has reason to feel that way. He could have been more polite, but it hardly makes him a monster to be feared. At most, in my family, that attitude is a bit snappish, but no big deal.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, bolt. said:

Well, yeah. If they've been together for decades, and he's been investing at a professional level for decades, and this is the first she's said boo about anything -- I don't find that to be a terrible first response to an armature who usually isn't even a aware spectator "expressing concern".

So he considers himself competent. Fair enough. He has reason to feel that way. He could have been more polite, but it hardly makes him a monster to be feared. At most, in my family, that attitude is a bit snappish, but no big deal.

Right.  I am sure he does feel competent and yet he could listen to concerns.  
 

He is not a monster to be feared. I hope I have not conveyed that impression.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

8 minutes ago, bolt. said:

Well, yeah. If they've been together for decades, and he's been investing at a professional level for decades, and this is the first she's said boo about anything -- I don't find that to be a terrible first response to an armature who usually isn't even a aware spectator "expressing concern".

So he considers himself competent. Fair enough. He has reason to feel that way. He could have been more polite, but it hardly makes him a monster to be feared. At most, in my family, that attitude is a bit snappish, but no big deal.

But he's not being a partner in a full sense of the word to his wife.  That's the issue.  Not his financial competence.  Even if he were the most loving of husbands (which doesn't sound the case from the description) a loving and attentive partner would want her to understand their financial standing in case he's incapacitated or dies.  He might have had blinders on with regards to this issue but she's asking and has even asked to go to therapy over it.  There is no reason for him to have blinders at this point and any refusal to include her in financial discussions is now on purpose. 

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

Well, yeah. If they've been together for decades, and he's been investing at a professional level for decades, and this is the first she's said boo about anything -- I don't find that to be a terrible first response to an armature who usually isn't even a aware spectator "expressing concern".

So he considers himself competent. Fair enough. He has reason to feel that way. He could have been more polite, but it hardly makes him a monster to be feared. At most, in my family, that attitude is a bit snappish, but no big deal.

I do find it to be a terrible response, to be honest. 

My major in college was English and Rhetoric, whereas my dh is an actuary. Yes, he can do the math infinitely more skillfully than me, and he understands financial investments far more intuitively than I do. But if he ever--ever!--blew off a request for more information or invested our money after I expressed curiosity or concern, you can bet I would haul him into therapy. That type of disdain is so very, very destructive. And yes, it does lead to valid questions and suspicions about what's going on.

 

(For the record, my dh answers and explains willingly when I ask for clarification. We're actually in a whole educational process now that we're empty nesters and thinking towards setting up properly for retirement. He's very, very aware that I need to understand what's what because he's not invincible. He could die or become incapacitated and it would be risky and unkind to leave me in a situation in which I would have to rifle through files in order to figure out how to pay the bills, which is Scarlett's friend's situation.)

[QueenCat]

2 hours ago, bolt. said:

I've often had the experience of accidentally sounding condescending simply because I had no idea what a person "already knows" about a topic, so I start at the beginning and convey the basics or I ask, "Are you already familiar with xyz?"

Of course, someone who already knows the basics would find that condescending... but I don't know how to avoid it aside from correctly guessing what level to start at.

In this case we are told that the wife believes that she knows "nothing" (or nearly nothing) about their finances... so I don't understand how he could even begin an explanation without coming off at least a little condescending. Especially if the wife felt sensitive and anxious about things already.

Excellent points!!! 

[WildflowerMom]

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

You can be emotionally afraid to talk to someone. I think she is afraid to talk to her husband. Abusive behaviors don’t have to be physical to be abusive.

I agree.   Some of what you described make me think of my dad.  Now he’s unmedicated bipolar (although has mellowed out at 72), but I lived with non-physical abusive situations for years and being afraid is being afraid.  A wife should not be afraid to discuss finances with her husband. Hesitant because she doesn’t really want to hear the reality.  But scared of his reaction? No. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, WildflowerMom said:

I agree.   Some of what you described make me think of my dad.  Now he’s unmedicated bipolar (although has mellowed out at 72), but I lived with non-physical abusive situations for years and being afraid is being afraid.  A wife should not be afraid to discuss finances with her husband. Hesitant because she doesn’t really want to hear the reality.  But scared of his reaction? No. 

I don’t think she is afraid of his reaction exactly.  Maybe?  But it is more like she is afraid of how it will unfold…..that he will treat her like she is dumb, she will feel dumb, she will get angry and not be able to stay focused.  

[WildflowerMom]

Tell her to look up emotional abuse, Scarlett.  (If she hasn’t already) 

 

btw, I am NOT dx’ing.   Just some things you’ve said made my spidey sense tingle, lol. 

[Scarlett]

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Edited February 9, 2023 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

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Edited February 9, 2023 by Scarlett

[Rosie_0801]

It's a shame she didn't take her large sum off to a financial advisor instead of taking holidays.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

It's a shame she didn't take her large sum off to a financial advisor instead of taking holidays.

Not sure why you think that is a shame.  They have plenty of money and they like to spend it on life experiences with those they love.  

[Carol in Cal.]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

He came from an out of town trip with Covid.  She retreated upstairs to protect herself.  He would not wear a mask in the common spaces….she decided to leave for their vacation home….today she tested positive but she isn’t going home.  It makes me really angry that he has no regard for her health.  

Paxlovid, stat.  Also Zinc lozenges under the tongue every two hours, and Quercetin.  Vitamin C and D.  And watch the pulse ox, hit the ER if it drops,

[Carol in Cal.]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Not sure why you think that is a shame.  They have plenty of money and they like to spend it on life experiences with those they love.  

It’s a shame because she had a golden opportunity to become informed, and the means to do so, without rocking the marriage boat.

[Scarlett]

On 2/7/2023 at 3:19 PM, Carol in Cal. said:

Paxlovid, stat.  Also Zinc lozenges under the tongue every two hours, and Quercetin.  Vitamin C and D.  And watch the pulse ox, hit the ER if it drops,

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Edited February 9, 2023 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It’s a shame because she had a golden opportunity to become informed, and the means to do so, without rocking the marriage boat.

How do you think that would have helped her become informed? 

[Clarita]

Just now, Scarlett said:

How do you think that would have helped her become informed? 

Because when you take a large sum of money to Chase and ask for a financial/investment advisor they treat you very well. If she feels dumb asking her husband about finances. This would be an opportunity where there is a professional she can ask all her finance questions to and he/she would answer professionally and patiently no matter what the question is.

[Grace Hopper]

IIRC part of the problem here is that his now adult kids from his previous marriage hold a great deal of sway over their father (and have an interest in his assets). What friend needs is some assurance that she would not be turned out on the streets penniless should he suddenly die. She needs to see a valid copy of his valid will, if nothing else, to make sure she won’t be abruptly vacated and financially cut off. 
 

Sure she has the choice to take herself off on holiday but in her shoes I’d likely be not only spending some on a legal/financial consult, but also squirreling away enough to live comfortably for a while should he pass first and the adult kids contest any amount he’s designated for friend. 

[Scarlett]

On 2/7/2023 at 3:27 PM, Clarita said:

Because when you take a large sum of money to Chase and ask for a financial/investment advisor they treat you very well. If she feels dumb asking her husband about finances. This would be an opportunity where there is a professional she can ask all her finance questions to and he/she would answer professionally and patiently no matter what the question is.

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Edited February 9, 2023 by Scarlett

[marbel]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Not sure why you think that is a shame.  They have plenty of money and they like to spend it on life experiences with those they love.  

Well, if she is afraid he's going to dump her and leave her without funds, then it would be prudent to set aside the money where he can't get it. 

ETA: isn't she also afraid she will be cut out financially if he dies?

Edited February 7, 2023 by marbel

[Scarlett]

On 2/7/2023 at 3:29 PM, Grace Hopper said:

IIRC part of the problem here is that his now adult kids from his previous marriage hold a great deal of sway over their father (and have an interest in his assets). What friend needs is some assurance that she would not be turned out on the streets penniless should he suddenly die. She needs to see a valid copy of his valid will, if nothing else, to make sure she won’t be abruptly vacated and financially cut off. 
 

Sure she has the choice to take herself off on holiday but in her shoes I’d likely be not only spending some on a legal/financial consult, but also squirreling away enough to live comfortably for a while should he pass first and the adult kids contest any amount he’s designated for friend. 

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Edited February 9, 2023 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, marbel said:

Well, if she is afraid he's going to dump her and leave her without funds, then it would be prudent to set aside the money where he can't get it. 

This is a long thread and I started it months ago….but I don’t think I have said she is afraid he is going to dump her and leave her without funds.  

[marbel]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

This is a long thread and I started it months ago….but I don’t think I have said she is afraid he is going to dump her and leave her without funds.  

OK, sorry, my bad on that. I thought you had said that. But isn't she afraid she will be cut out of his estate if he dies?  By his daughter and brother, I think? Sorry if I'm muddling everything up. 

In any case, it would have been smart for her to have some investments of her own, under the care of a professional financial advisor. Taking friends on trips is nice and all, but not for someone who may be financially vulnerable. And anyone can be financially vulnerable if they don't have money in their name, or might have some, but don't know about it and don't know how to get it.

[Scarlett]

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Edited February 9, 2023 by Scarlett