A map showing paid maternity leave by country

[Rosie_0801]

9 hours ago, Spirea said:

That's a shockingly high number. I wonder if it's because people are juggling payments for cars, credit cards, etc. Hard to believe that 68% of Americans are in poverty, so certainly other factors here.

You live in a country where people don't have the right to have drinkable water come out of their kitchen tap. 

[Rosie_0801]

6 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I DELIBERATELY fed my kids expensive cuts of everything with fancy preparations so they’d not experience discomfort when dining with those who take them for granted. It’s part of the education in class that people who have take for granted.

Mm. On one of my jaunts through the family court system, the report writer from one of the state's poshest suburbs critiqued me for sleeping in the corner of my kitchen while taking my daughter to the opera.

Mate, how do you suppose I afforded the opera tickets? Yeah, by not spending that money to rent a room I didn't need.

Why did I do that? Socialisation! 

He was too wealthy to understand...

[Faith-manor]

18 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

You live in a country where people don't have the right to have drinkable water come out of their kitchen tap. 

 

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Mm. On one of my jaunts through the family court system, the report writer from one of the state's poshest suburbs critiqued me for sleeping in the corner of my kitchen while taking my daughter to the opera.

Mate, how do you suppose I afforded the opera tickets? Yeah, by not spending that money to rent a room I didn't need.

Why did I do that? Socialisation! 

He was too wealthy to understand...

You ma'am are spot on!

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Mm. On one of my jaunts through the family court system, the report writer from one of the state's poshest suburbs critiqued me for sleeping in the corner of my kitchen while taking my daughter to the opera.

Mate, how do you suppose I afforded the opera tickets? Yeah, by not spending that money to rent a room I didn't need.

Why did I do that? Socialisation! 

He was too wealthy to understand...

My SIL visited us overseas and treated us at a Wolfgang Puck establishment. My 10yo ordered med rare ribeye with blue cheese and veg. SILs eyes got wide. She/We have never been so proud. DS ate the whole damn thing and raved about the experience. The idea that deprivation and ignorance should be the norm for people in poverty? BS. There are plenty of ignorant wealthy people who douse prime cuts in ketchup. My kids (and my infant niece) are theater aficionados. I reject the supposition that preparing your kids for the life you want them to have/live represents poor decision-making. Quite the contrary, it's an investment in their future.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Sneezyone

[SHP]

6 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I DELIBERATELY fed my kids expensive cuts of everything with fancy preparations so they’d not experience discomfort when dining with those who take them for granted. It’s part of the education in class that people who have take for granted.

This is so important and so many people do not understand it. I applaud you for recognizing it and exposing your children. It will serve them well.

My husband's mother was lower class and kept his father working long hours to satisfy her (she was a gold digger, he was upper middle class parents and wealthy grandparents). Because he was always working and she at home, neglecting the kids, they did not get the exposure and yes, it has very much impacted my husband's career and made for some very awkward social encounters. I hadn't realized how wide the gap was until the first time he went to a family gathering with my family. 

As an aside, in many large towns and cities there are classes that are aimed at older teens and adults who are in professions where it can make or break a career, that teach these. Precovid my husband was looking at one near us. I am pretty sure I covered most things with our kids but I have been tempted to send them before graduating college to be on the safe side. 

[Rosie_0801]

11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 Quite the contrary, it's an investment in their future.

Yeah. 
Ester Maria would never have imagined the impact she had on a pair of povs* over here in the other hemisphere.

I have a kid who, when she was small, wanted to be the governor of our state as a retirement project after she'd been a lady tradie and a boss lady. That requires wider than usual efforts at socialisation. I have my limitations but I do my best. 😂 

*Pov is literally short for poverty, but doesn't mean traumatic levels of poverty. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Yeah. 
Ester Maria would never have imagined the impact she had on a pair of povs* over here in the other hemisphere.

I have a kid who, when she was small, wanted to be the governor of our state as a retirement project after she'd been a lady tradie and a boss lady. That requires wider than usual efforts at socialisation. I have my limitations but I do my best. 😂 

*Pov is literally short for poverty, but doesn't mean traumatic levels of poverty. 

Awesome. It's unfortunate that so many equate fine things with poor decision-making. I *want* my kids to not only have a taste for finer things but know what they have to do to get/keep them. DH and I (thanks inflation) are closer to wealthy than not but our values haven't changed. At all.

[Scarlett]

7 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

This.

And my niece's income is $32K gross, so less than that when taxes come out. She pays $8000 a year for health insurance and has a $5000 deductible. $13,000 for basically no coverage until something huge happens. She has to have a car to get to work in the highest auto insurance premiums in the nation. She pays 7500 a year for rent on a cottage that is practically a pusher downer because the slum lord won't fix anything, but she can't afford more and housing has skyrocketed. Total these numbers and then add car maintenance, fuel, utilities, food and cleaning supplies, and tell me how she is supposed to afford a $400 emergency. 

When the naysayers are asked this question, the response is crickets.

I don’t understand why she can’t get marketplace insurance. Or state insurance.    That would help a lot.

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Awesome. It's unfortunate that so many equate fine things with poor decision-making. I *want* my kids to not only have a taste for finer things but know what they have to do to get/keep them. DH and I (thanks inflation) are closer to wealthy than not but our values haven't changed. At all.

We don't know how small our worlds are until someone shows us another.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

We don't know how small our worlds are until someone shows us another.

Indeed.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t understand why she can’t get marketplace insurance. Or state insurance.    That would help a lot.

Every state hasn't expanded medicaid coverage ergo there are still donut holes.

[Melissa Louise]

Wait, how do poor people feed their kids fancy food so they 'pass' ? This is a m/c thing? 

My kids went to the theatre ( thanks Boomer grandparents) but they were raised on lentils and mince. 

Dd2 is galloping up the ladder regardless, though I am sure she feels at a social disadvantage at times. Oh well. 

I didn't get paid mat leave, which derailed things quite a bit. I did get 6 months unpaid for baby no. 1 but had to get the union to fight for that. Was employed in the not for profit sector at the time.

It all plays into the motherhood penalty. 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Melissa Louise
Edited for misinformation

[Scarlett]

4 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

 

I got juice, oatmeal, bread, cereal, milk, deli meat, ground beef and egg noodles.  I told the cashier I had never used the EBT card before and didn’t know how to use it, and the lady behind me heard EBT card and went off about my iPhone and my Michael Kors purse.  

Its a lot of words to say you don’t know anyone’s story, but what she said about me, all of which was untrue, and wouldn’t matter even if it was true, really hurt.  I’m working 80 hours this week, I’m exhausted, depressed and worried about DS7. 

A little kindness can go a long, long way.  

That just infuriates me.  People need to mind their own business.  

[Melissa Louise]

Misinfo!

Edited June 28, 2022 by Melissa Louise

[Sneezyone]

8 hours ago, Spirea said:

If we are helping people who would starve without the food, it should be nourishing food. I think there should be limits and extravagant foods should not be allowed. Something like the WIC options that certain foods were approved for the program. No soda/junk food/junk food. I would see options marked "WIC approved" in the grocery store.

Me, trying to figure out how steak and lobster aren't nourishing/are junk food. How much money/time will it take for you to get the hell out of other people's kitchens and bedrooms? 

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Wait, how do poor people feed their kids fancy food so they 'pass' ? This is a m/c thing? 

My kids went to the theatre ( thanks Boomer grandparents) but they were raised on lentils and mince. 

In my household, I was involved with families that not only prioritized those activities but paid for me to attend as a guest. My school also sent us to local productions as field trips. My grandparents took us to nice places and my parents took us to Benihana (big at the time) for our birthdays with one guest. It was a VERY special treat. I will never forget when I invited a friend who'd never experienced a nice restaurant and complained the whole time. It ruined the day for me. Never again.

[AurieD]

21 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Casualisation and temporary contract work has increased a lot here. Casuals don't get mat leave. If you're on a contract you might or might not get some leave but it's not likely to be mat leave. A lot of women in AU are shut out of mat leave. 

It all plays into the motherhood penalty. 

 

 

Casual employees are eligible for the government paid parental leave - as long as they meet the work test which is to work: 

10 of the 13 months before the birth or adoption of your child

a minimum of 330 hours, around one day a week, in that 10 month period

no more than 12 week gap between each work day in that 10 month period

 

The government one came in a few years before the birth of my eldest, and while it's not a great amount (given the push to breast feed for 6 months it should be at least that!) it was certainly helpful. I'm permanent part time (full time prior to children) but only got government mat leave as I work for a small business, most small businesses don't offer any leave above what they are required by law to.

[Rosie_0801]

37 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Wait, how do poor people feed their kids fancy food so they 'pass' ? This is a m/c thing? 

Well, there was that time I bought a kilo of crabs for my mother for Christmas and freaked out when I saw that a kilo of crabs isn't just one. 😂 I can't remember, but I assume she shared. It seems unlikely she'd sit down and eat an entire kilo of crabs by herself! Actually, or she forgot and left them in her sister's fridge and her kids ate them. 

We had those sorts of foods often enough for me to remember. I suppose having stuff like that as a treat was cheaper than going to wherever people with a bit money did for a treat. A lobster is cheaper than taking five people to the pictures, or was then anyway. 

[Melissa Louise]

12 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Well, there was that time I bought a kilo of crabs for my mother for Christmas and freaked out when I saw that a kilo of crabs isn't just one. 😂 I can't remember, but I assume she shared. It seems unlikely she'd sit down and eat an entire kilo of crabs by herself! Actually, or she forgot and left them in her sister's fridge and her kids ate them. 

We had those sorts of foods often enough for me to remember. I suppose having stuff like that as a treat was cheaper than going to wherever people with a bit money did for a treat. A lobster is cheaper than taking five people to the pictures, or was then anyway. 

But we didn't take 5 people to the pictures! Idk. I guess we spent spare $ on books. 

[Melissa Louise]

15 minutes ago, AurieD said:

Casual employees are eligible for the government paid parental leave - as long as they meet the work test which is to work: 

10 of the 13 months before the birth or adoption of your child

a minimum of 330 hours, around one day a week, in that 10 month period

no more than 12 week gap between each work day in that 10 month period

 

The government one came in a few years before the birth of my eldest, and while it's not a great amount (given the push to breast feed for 6 months it should be at least that!) it was certainly helpful. I'm permanent part time (full time prior to children) but only got government mat leave as I work for a small business, most small businesses don't offer any leave above what they are required by law to.

Thanks, that's good to know. 

Education is a lot of women on 12 month contracts - are they entitled to govt payment? 

I hope it's better than it was, because it wasn't very good at all, but I guess I am quite old. 

[AurieD]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Education is a lot of women on 12 month contracts - are they entitled to govt payment?

Yup. There are some woman who miss out on the government one, especially for 2nd children when they have them close together, but overall I think it does a fairly good job of capturing the majority of working mothers. It also includes self employed people.

Of course as it's administered by Services Australia the application process is 100 times more difficult than it needs to be. Or was when I got it.

[Melissa Louise]

56 minutes ago, AurieD said:

Yup. There are some woman who miss out on the government one, especially for 2nd children when they have them close together, but overall I think it does a fairly good job of capturing the majority of working mothers. It also includes self employed people.

Of course as it's administered by Services Australia the application process is 100 times more difficult than it needs to be. Or was when I got it.

Thanks for updating me. 

[SHP]

3 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

*Pov is literally short for poverty, but doesn't mean traumatic levels of poverty. 

Just curious what would you consider to be a traumatic level of poverty? 

[Rosie_0801]

4 hours ago, SHP said:

Just curious what would you consider to be a traumatic level of poverty? 

Not sure what answer you're looking for. Eventually "this sucks, oh well we'll live" crosses into crisis, then into constructing a "new normal" because crisis is your new normal. (Then suicide when the new normal is too unbearable?)

To a large extent, poverty is a social construct. Bodily care needs aren't, but something like no shoes is normal in some places and gets your kids taken away in others.

What does my answer matter? Everyone can imagine not knowing how they'd cope if a certain threshold was breached. That threshold isn't the same for everyone. Think of the lockdowns. Millions of people crying over social media because they didn't know how to cope. Millions of people on social media not rubbing their noses in it by saying "Ha. Welcome to my life."

"Pov" is a dialect word I noted because most people on this forum don't speak my dialect.

[TCB]

On 6/26/2022 at 9:41 PM, TexasProud said:

Interesting.  Our poor hospital got subsidized to pay all of the traveling nurses who made like 3 or 4 times what "regular" nurses made, so now they have to pay all of them that or lose them.  

We, the nurses who have worked there longer, have actually been given a pay cut at the hospital I work at. The pay for new nurses has improved a small amount. Needless to say, feels like a kick in the teeth after the last few years. 
 

Sorry don’t want to derail the thread - back to maternity leave/pay. I had a year of maternity leave in the UK with both my babies. The first 6 ish months paid, the rest unpaid, but they had to keep my job for me.

[Carrie12345]

15 hours ago, fraidycat said:

Who gets to decide which ones are lazy and which ones are helpless?

Exactly.
Look, I readily admit my frustrations with a family member who screws up over and over again, with private and gov’t assistance, and I am angry that they brought children into it.  But I have never once felt that the kids should just be left to suffer, or that magical thinking could resolve the parent’s mental health and trauma issues. Or that the kids should never get a treat, or that the parent should just work 80+ hours a week. Or any of the even worse things some would like to keep on the table.
A random person walking by them in a store might think that, without considering that they are actual PEOPLE, with private complications they have no way of knowing about. And they have no idea what may have been sent as a gift or loaned as a need or scored while thrifting. Or whatever else might apply to nobody’s business.

Lazy people, whoever those are, are not making out like bandits.  Even if you want to consider the very low rate of fraud, those few people can’t get away with it without true effort. 😛 

 

[ktgrok]

8 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t understand why she can’t get marketplace insurance. Or state insurance.    That would help a lot.

that might BE marketplace insurance -  it isn't cheap if you don't get a subsidy, and in many states if you make too LITTLE you can't get a subsidy. The idea was medicaid would be expanded and cover those people, but some states refused to do that. 

She may qualify for medicaid for pregnant women, I think that also varies by state, but I know in many areas it can be hard to find providers that actually take that insurance. And not sure if she can drop her insurance she already had just because she got pregnant. 

And that wouldn't cover the husband - would still need to pay for his coverage, so it may be best financially to keep him on hers. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by ktgrok

[Scarlett]

16 hours ago, Spirea said:

If we are helping people who would starve without the food,  it should be nourishing food. I think there should be limits and extravagant foods should not be allowed. Something like the WIC options that certain foods were approved for the program. No soda/junk food/junk food. I would see options marked "WIC approved" in the grocery store.

How is it fair that a family works, pays taxes and is frugal and can't afford steak and lobster but people on food stamps can? Where is the incentive to be self sufficient and buy better food, if they can get anything they want for free? Where is the incentive to save money and buy a cheap car so you can buy food when you can buy an expensive car and get boxes of free food? And when I was talking about choices having consequences, I was meaning spending choices, not contraceptives. We went to a lumberyard last week, and the 20 yr old working there was complaining how hot and tired he was stacking wood and took a break while we were deciding and so took out a cigarette. I thought, wow kid, you wouldn't have to work such a hard job if you didn't waste money on cigarettes and you'd be healthier. Yeah, it was judgemental (all you that think smoking is great) because I'm shocked that a young person would choose to smoke and it is expensive. 

I don't know about the other stories. But my mom who worked in a grocery store for close to 40 yrs told me what she saw passing through her checkout line. She should write a book. She always had great stories at dinnertime.

 This got long and was not all directed toward @Spirea….just some ramblings..
 

I think when you begin to think of the governments money as ‘yours’ it becomes easy to be judgmental.  And currently the US government has a program to provide supplemental money to help with food for low income families.  Nothing is said about it being so they won’t starve to death.  It is stated in the program that it is for nutritional food…..but wide leeway is currently given.  There is no restriction on extravagant food.  And there is no prohibition of junk food.  As others have pointed out steak and lobster IS nutritious.  As far as junk food……would you be as annoyed if they went home and baked a cake for their children?  I am just not sure where the cut off is for being irritated at the choices others make.  Especially when all you know about them is what they purchase through your moms check out lane.  
 

We all make choices. Even those of us on no SNAP benefits…..we might choose a nicer house, we might choose a nicer car, or we might choose to spend our money on camping several times a year.  Or we might chose to have a less nice car so that we can afford steak and lobster.  We might eat healthy most of the time but choose to buy a store bought cake once in a while.  You probably would not want anyone standing over you and judging how you spend your money.  I know I would not.  So I try to think how I would feel if I qualified for SNAP…..and I try to mentally and  in practice give people dignity.  
 

As far as smoking…..I hate smoking with a passion and yes it is very easy to be judgmental about it.  Our 25 year old smokes….well now it is smokeless…..I find it so so revolting. The several hundred he spends on that every month could help him have a nicer apartment.But oh well.  He gets to choose.And if he qualified for SNAP he would not be disqualified for smoking.  That is just the way the program works.  Addiction is a big big problem in this country.  But also, I am confused by the 20 year olds job being tied to his waste of money on smoking. Our 21 year old doesn’t smoke and he works that almost exact same job.  And he complains.  Shrug. Hopefully not customers.

This board educated me on so many things…..for instance I have never personally known a person who did not have a sink, cooktop stove and an oven. When I was informed that many people in poverty are living with maybe just a microwave or a hot plate and only a bathroom sink…..I began to see purchase choices in the Walmart line very differently.  That person who just bought 7 frozen dinners? Maybe they don’t have a proper kitchen.   

ok, I am stopping now.  Lol. 
 

 

[Faith-manor]

58 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

that might BE marketplace insurance -  it isn't cheap if you don't get a subsidy, and in many states if you make too LITTLE you can't get a subsidy. The idea was medicaid would be expanded and cover those people, but some states refused to do that. 

She may qualify for medicaid for pregnant women, I think that also varies by state, but I know in many areas it can be hard to find providers that actually take that insurance. And not sure if she can drop her insurance she already had just because she got pregnant. 

And that wouldn't cover the husband - would still need to pay for his coverage, so it may be best financially to keep him on hers. 

There are NO providers in our three county area that do pre-natal care for medicaid. Since it is a one hour or more drive one way to get to a maternity care center and ObGyn who does accept it, and many of the Medicaid insured women work two part time jobs to keep themselves afloat meaning they have no paid time odd and IF the OB is running on time, they are gone 2.5-3 hrs unpaid, they do not get prenatal care and just go to the ER of the nearest hospital that delivers babies when they go into labor.

She also begged an OB in the city who took Medicaid back when she was eligible to for it to do a tubal ligation so she wouldn't have anymore children she couldn't afford. She was 30 years old with 3 children, and he refused because she was unmarried and had no husband to agree to it so he figured she might change her mind in the future. You know. Because women can't possibly know their own minds, and make responsible choices. 😠

Deductibles are quite large here on the marketplace. There is very little choice, and most of the doctors and hospitals who take the few plan options available do not practice within one hour of here. I think that is by design. Insurance companies are in it for the profits, and they want to only insure the healthiest people possible when it cokes to individual plans, and they don't want to deal with medically underserved areas where they have to do a lot of individual contract negotiations to get providers to accept the insurance. It is so much more profitable to serve large, urban hospital groups where everyone practicing in the network has to accept the policy because the hospital board/administrators negotiated for everyone as a whole. At least that is why I suspect there is so few, very pathetic options locally.

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

that might BE marketplace insurance -  it isn't cheap if you don't get a subsidy, and in many states if you make too LITTLE you can't get a subsidy. The idea was medicaid would be expanded and cover those people, but some states refused to do that. 

She may qualify for medicaid for pregnant women, I think that also varies by state, but I know in many areas it can be hard to find providers that actually take that insurance. And not sure if she can drop her insurance she already had just because she got pregnant. 

And that wouldn't cover the husband - would still need to pay for his coverage, so it may be best financially to keep him on hers. 

I went back and checked…she said nothing about a husband or children.  If she only makes 32k a year her market place price would not be 8k a year. And 32k a year is not too little to qualify either.  Not picking on @Faith-manorbut that just doesn’t make sense. Which brings me to another reissue…..and that is that so so many people do not have any idea how to actually apply for government benefits.  I have often thought I would love to help people with that.

Edited to add for clarity…..3 children and no husband.  

Edited June 28, 2022 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

There are NO providers in our three county area that do pre-natal care for medicaid. Since it is a one hour or more drive one way to get to a maternity care center and ObGyn who does accept it, and many of the Medicaid insured women work two part time jobs to keep themselves afloat meaning they have no paid time odd and IF the OB is running on time, they are gone 2.5-3 hrs unpaid, they do not get prenatal care and just go to the ER of the nearest hospital that delivers babies when they go into labor.

She also begged an OB in the city who took Medicaid back when she was eligible to for it to do a tubal ligation so she wouldn't have anymore children she couldn't afford. She was 30 years old with 3 children, and he refused because she was unmarried and had no husband to agree to it so he figured she might change her mind in the future. You know. Because women can't possibly know their own minds, and make responsible choices. 😠

Deductibles are quite large here on the marketplace. There is very little choice, and most of the doctors and hospitals who take the few plan options available do not practice within one hour of here. I think that is by design. Insurance companies are in it for the profits, and they want to only insure the healthiest people possible when it cokes to individual plans, and they don't want to deal with medically underserved areas where they have to do a lot of individual contract negotiations to get providers to accept the insurance. It is so much more profitable to serve large, urban hospital groups where everyone practicing in the network has to accept the policy because the hospital board/administrators negotiated for everyone as a whole. At least that is why I suspect there is so few, very pathetic options locally.

If she has 3 children on 32k a year her deductible will not be high and her premium will probably be zero.  This just doesn’t make sense. 

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Scarlett said:

I went back and checked…she said nothing about a husband or children.  If she only makes 32k a year her market place price would not be 8k a year. And 32k a year is not too little to qualify either.  Not picking on @Faith-manorbut that just doesn’t make sense. Which brings me to another reissue…..and that is that so so many people do not have any idea how to actually apply for government benefits.  I have often thought I would love to help people with that.

I never said it was marketplace. I am not willing to go into her details anymore than I have or why she may or may not be eligible for marketplace because I have shared enough. However, see my post above about how marketplace and Medicaid do work in general in my area. 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

If she has 3 children on 32k a year her deductible will not be high and her premium will probably be zero.  This just doesn’t make sense. 

You are trying to make a lot of assumptions about my niece when I have not provided those details. It doesn't have to make sense to you. But thanks for questioning my integrity. 🙄

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

You are trying to make a lot of assumptions about my niece when I have not provided those details. It doesn't have to make sense to you. But thanks for questioning my integrity. 🙄

Well, not exactly but if there are other details that completely change the story it is not helpful to present that as the norm for 32k a year.  

[regentrude]

19 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

She also begged an OB in the city who took Medicaid back when she was eligible to for it to do a tubal ligation so she wouldn't have anymore children she couldn't afford. She was 30 years old with 3 children, and he refused because she was unmarried and had no husband to agree to it so he figured she might change her mind in the future. You know. Because women can't possibly know their own minds, and make responsible choices. 😠

I have heard from several friends that they were required to have their husband's signature before tubal ligation or hysterectomy. This is medieval. 

I haven't heard about any man who was required to obtain his wife's permission to have a medical procedure.

[historically accurate]

13 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I have heard from several friends that they were required to have their husband's signature before tubal ligation or hysterectomy. This is medieval. 

I haven't heard about any man who was required to obtain his wife's permission to have a medical procedure.

My cousin was unable to get a hysterectomy until after her marriage at age 35 "because she or her future husband may have wanted children". Even though she tried treatment after treatment for years - even though doctors told her there was no other option left except a hysterectomy at age 25 - even though she was often unable to hold a job due to absences and weighed 85 pounds because she couldn't eat without excruciating stomach pain and/or vomiting. She got married at age 35, and husband told off the doctor (after watching cousin suffer in pain for about a month); next month, full hysterectomy. She's healthy and happy and almost 50 now.

[1234]

20 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I have heard from several friends that they were required to have their husband's signature before tubal ligation or hysterectomy. This is medieval. 

I haven't heard about any man who was required to obtain his wife's permission to have a medical procedure.

To be fair, I did have to sign paperwork for my husband to get a vasectomy. I’m not sure how common it is, but it definitely happens.

[MEmama]

19 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I have heard from several friends that they were required to have their husband's signature before tubal ligation or hysterectomy. This is medieval. 

I haven't heard about any man who was required to obtain his wife's permission to have a medical procedure.

I’ve heard from *lesbians* being denied hysterectomies because they “might change their sexuality and find a husband who might want kids”. No joke. To say the misogyny in healthcare is infuriating isn’t going nearly far enough. 

[Scarlett]

14 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

My cousin was unable to get a hysterectomy until after her marriage at age 35 "because she or her future husband may have wanted children". Even though she tried treatment after treatment for years - even though doctors told her there was no other option left except a hysterectomy at age 25 - even though she was often unable to hold a job due to absences and weighed 85 pounds because she couldn't eat without excruciating stomach pain and/or vomiting. She got married at age 35, and husband told off the doctor (after watching cousin suffer in pain for about a month); next month, full hysterectomy. She's healthy and happy and almost 50 now.

Hopefully this kind of thing is happening less now. My never married/no children SIL had a full hysterectomy last fall at age 42.  Her doctor had recommended it 2 years earlier but SIL put it off juuuust in case she got married and pregnant at the last minute.  

Edited June 28, 2022 by Scarlett

[MEmama]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Hopefully this kind of thing is happening less now. My never married/no children DIL had a full hysterectomy last fall at age 42.  Her doctor had recommended it 2 years earlier but SIL put it off juuuust in case she got married and pregnant at the last minute.  

Hysterectomy forums have me believe it’s still commonplace. I just read about a woman my age—49– denied a hysterectomy because she’s still considered fertile. Wtf?! Almost 50 yo and treated as though still doesn’t know what she wants and needs?!

Edited June 28, 2022 by MEmama

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

To be fair, I did have to sign paperwork for my husband to get a vasectomy. I’m not sure how common it is, but it definitely happens.

I definitely did not sign anything for my husband to get his.  I never met the doctor, never verbally oked anything, nothing.  My only involvement was to drive him to the appointment and home again.  Im pretty sure all of it is the doctors discretion.  Which is why there are lists on Reddit and other places of doctors that will do tubals etc. without all of the other BS.  There is no standard.  It’s sucks that the burden is on the woman but being denied a hysterectomy or tubal by one doctor shouldn’t be seen as the end, you have to find a doctor who will.  

Edited June 28, 2022 by Heartstrings

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

I have heard from several friends that they were required to have their husband's signature before tubal ligation or hysterectomy. This is medieval. 

I haven't heard about any man who was required to obtain his wife's permission to have a medical procedure.

Military spouses on our local page are complaining that their husbands are unable to get vasectomies too because they’re either too young or don’t have enough children. It’s cray. These are military docs that service members have to use. This was as of yesterday.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

If she has 3 children on 32k a year her deductible will not be high and her premium will probably be zero.  This just doesn’t make sense. 

Keep in mind that people are not eligible for any subsidy through the Marketplace if their employer offers insurance that meets certain criteria. And those criteria only apply to the cheapest plan available to the employee and don't count the cost of additional family members. So if her employer offers an insurance plan that would cost $3000/yr just for her, which would not cover her children or the specific care providers that she needs, then she would not be eligible for a subsidy, even if the cost of a plan that does cover her kids and allows her to use the providers she needs exceeds 10% of income.

[SKL]

I totally agree with giving working class kids exposure to the arts, different kinds of food, etc.  It's good to know how the other half lives, so you can relate to those people.

But how come nobody considers that it's just as important for privileged kids to relate to the "other half"?  Instead we encourage the privileged classes to stay on their high horse.

I understand being an unexposed idiot from the Boone docks.  That was absolutely me.  I do try to expose my kids to all kinds of things, even though I'm not that comfortable with them myself, so that they won't be as awkward as I was.

That said, I've always tried to address the other side of the culture clash.  Yeah, believe it or not, a person can be born poor, can have a pile of siblings, crooked teeth, and a hick accent, and still be a capable professional.  A person can work multiple jobs AND do well in school.  Knowledge of basketball is not a litmus test for individual value.  Also you (privileged colleagues) could learn a lot from me.

I think that in many professions, this is actually more important than the fancy stuff.  How can you be a doctor/HCW and not know how to talk to / listen to half of your patients?  How can you be a teacher/professor and not communicate well with your students?  Or a manager in a manufacturing or service company?  And don't get me started about privileged individuals going into social services without a clue.

[Happy2BaMom]

There are lists of doctors willing to provide tubals, etc - even on young women - on r/childfree, a sub on Reddit.

Medical tourism is also an option. (yes, you need to vet carefully....just as in US, but a lot of health care abroad is excellent nowadays). I know someone who's scheduled now in Mexico and someone else I know previously had a full tubal (the one where they actually remove the fallopian tubes, not just tie them) in Costa Rica. Foreign docs can be less concerned about what some American woman wants to do.

[Faith-manor]

11 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

There are lists of doctors willing to provide tubals, etc - even on young women - on r/childfree, a sub on Reddit.

Medical tourism is also an option. (yes, you need to vet carefully....just as in US, but a lot of health care abroad is excellent nowadays). I know someone who's scheduled now in Mexico and someone else I know previously had a full tubal (the one where they actually remove the fallopian tubes, not just tie them) in Costa Rica. Foreign docs can be less concerned about what some American woman wants to do.

But that is for the rich or at least middle to upper class. It isn't like poor women have money to jet set off to Tijuana. I mean, if my niece and I were now on speaking terms (not, and that is her choice because she had a ridiculous meltdown at a family event when she asked for more money than what we could front her at the time, and now she is mad - she had a lot of emotional issues), maybe we could afford to send her. However, most low income folks do not have relatives willing to foot the travel bill for medical tourism. It is only a solution for people who already have money, and resources.

[regentrude]

17 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

There are lists of doctors willing to provide tubals, etc - even on young women - on r/childfree, a sub on Reddit.

Medical tourism is also an option. (yes, you need to vet carefully....just as in US, but a lot of health care abroad is excellent nowadays). I know someone who's scheduled now in Mexico and someone else I know previously had a full tubal (the one where they actually remove the fallopian tubes, not just tie them) in Costa Rica. Foreign docs can be less concerned about what some American woman wants to do.

This is only an option for women with the means. 

It's not a solution to the FUNDAMENTAL issue that women can't have autonomy over their health care decisions in the US. THAT needs to be addressed. 

[Scarlett]

54 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Keep in mind that people are not eligible for any subsidy through the Marketplace if their employer offers insurance that meets certain criteria. And those criteria only apply to the cheapest plan available to the employee and don't count the cost of additional family members. So if her employer offers an insurance plan that would cost $3000/yr just for her, which would not cover her children or the specific care providers that she needs, then she would not be eligible for a subsidy, even if the cost of a plan that does cover her kids and allows her to use the providers she needs exceeds 10% of income.

Yes I know some people do fall into the ‘family glitch’.   I just looked it up and it is 9.61% of income…if your employer insurance cost for the employee is more than 9.61% of household income than ACA considers that affordable and you don’t qualify for subsidies.  However….that doesn’t seem to be the case in Faiths example.  She has 3 kids and makes 32k a year which is definitely eligible for Medicaid. 

[Happy2BaMom]

30 minutes ago, regentrude said:

This is only an option for women with the means. 

It's not a solution to the FUNDAMENTAL issue that women can't have autonomy over their health care decisions in the US. THAT needs to be addressed. 

Oh, I totally & completely agree with you.

Eventually the demographics will catch up in the US, just as they did in Ireland and other countries. But, right now, the headwinds are going in the opposite direction, and women who don't want to risk birth control failure and being forced to give birth need sterilization options to be available. Which they are not, in large part due to the patriarchal paternalism that is baked into this society & the dominant religion.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

I’ve heard from *lesbians* being denied hysterectomies because they “might change their sexuality and find a husband who might want kids”. No joke. To say the misogyny in healthcare is infuriating isn’t going nearly far enough. 

It IS misogyny, not simply a “you might change” thing.
As I was being prepped for my emergency surgery, dh and I were asked if we wanted them to take my other tube while they were in there.  A very fair question, considering I had had an IUD and was about to have tools inside of me anyway.  We might have said yes with more time, but decided it wasn’t something to choose on the spot like that, especially having intended to keep that unexpected pregnancy only to be unable to.
Dh later informed me that they asked him alone, after I was knocked out, if they should take the other tube.
That is not concern for potential desired pregnancies. That is concern for the man’s wishes.