Is this sort of vague communication style... normal? Common?

[Indigo Blue]

1 hour ago, freesia said:

Actually, I’ve noticed the same dynamic in conversations here-many people feel jumped on when others are completely straight with them. 

Slight aside: I see that sometimes….and I agree it happens. I like being straight with people and want them to do the same, but I do appreciate gentleness in so doing. I feel sorry for people when they get dog piled, which is different from being straight to the point and helpful. And, worse, is when there is so much reading in to what isn’t there and making huge assumptions. 

[J-rap]

I don't think that style of communication is normal or abnormal -- it's just a style.  I actually think her message seemed pretty direct!  She was telling you that manners are important at that particular school.  I wouldn't assume that there was a hidden message, like I wasn't doing my part.  If I did wonder that, I hope I'd just ask her.  

Possibly, it's an area where that style of conversation is more common.

Sometimes I wonder if people are taking comments more and more personally these days -- assuming it's some kind of a dig, when it isn't.  For example, someone might hear her comment and think there's a hidden complaint.  But if she were to be even more direct in her message, someone else might just feel criticized and defensive.  

 

[fraidycat]

1 hour ago, J-rap said:

I don't think that style of communication is normal or abnormal -- it's just a style.  I actually think her message seemed pretty direct!  She was telling you that manners are important at that particular school.  I wouldn't assume that there was a hidden message, like I wasn't doing my part.  If I did wonder that, I hope I'd just ask her.  

But, it wasn't direct,  because there WAS a hidden message that Kanin is hearing through the gossip grapevine she hasn't met the hidden expectation.

It seems Kanin did originally take the statement at face value. Manners are important. OK. Statement of fact, no request given, move on with day. Done.

But, everyone's idea of which manners, and what actually constitutes "manners" are not the same. Therefore if the person making the statement is actually wanting the receiver to DO something with the information, they need to say that.

"Manners are really important in our school, so we try to get all the kids to say Please and Thank you when asking for help or a new pencil or whatever they need. Can you please remind them when they ask you for something?"

 

[J-rap]

9 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

But, it wasn't direct,  because there WAS a hidden message that Kanin is hearing through the gossip grapevine she hasn't met the hidden expectation.

It seems Kanin did originally take the statement at face value. Manners are important. OK. Statement of fact, no request given, move on with day. Done.

But, everyone's idea of which manners, and what actually constitutes "manners" are not the same. Therefore if the person making the statement is actually wanting the receiver to DO something with the information, they need to say that.

"Manners are really important in our school, so we try to get all the kids to say Please and Thank you when asking for help or a new pencil or whatever they need. Can you please remind them when they ask you for something?"

 

I just read through the chat again and see that I missed the part about gossip.  To me, that sounds more like a gossip problem than anything.  I have a good friend who taught at a school and the gossip was so bad that she ended up just eating lunch alone in her classroom or outside.  Gossip rarely gives the whole story, and can be flat-out wrong.   I guess I'd probably go straight to the top and ask.

[Jean in Newcastle]

14 hours ago, TechWife said:

Not to me - and I’m not on the spectrum.  On behalf of my son, who is, please don’t attribute one instance of misunderstanding as autism. Sometimes people just don’t communicate in an understandable way. Attributing something as basic as this to autism is the equivalent of crying wolf - it makes it harder for people who do have autism to be taken seriously. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. 
 

Your son with ASD doesn't somehow trump my son with ASD.  Lack of understanding of social nuance is a well documented part of autism, even though as you say, every autistic person is different.  Obviously not everyone with a lack of understanding of social nuance is autistic.  And equally obviously this situation might not be just a lack of social nuance.  None of us other than the OP have been there to actually see and hear the conversations in person.

But manners is pretty much summed up as social nuance.  I grew up in a non-Western culture where the social nuance is much more vague but labeling an entire culture as passive-aggressive will definitely get one the label as an "Ugly American".  Schools and other organizations can have cultures of their own and it can be very difficult to be on the outside of that.  And yes, those cultures can be toxic in some cases.  But a "can you explain what you mean" can go a long way towards understanding each other. 

[kbutton]

7 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes that’s what I thought too! I’d go away wondering when I’d been inadvertently rude!

ETA now I’ve read the whole thread it looks like 3/3 Aussies had the same response so maybe that’s a country specific thing.

It's within the realm of interpretation here too, just maybe not the first thought.

7 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

At a recent meeting, my boss told the 4 of us there that she was going to bring up in a larger meeting the issue of people wearing sweatshirts on Teams calls and how it’s not professional. “I’m not directing this at anyone here, I just wanted you to know…”

Umm…if it’s not directed at anyone here, why are you telling us? If someone is doing something unprofessional, wouldn’t it be more effective to address that person? Are you talking about that one day I wore that purple athletic jacket because I was cold? Was that a problem? Are we REALLY concerned with comfortable wardrobe choices on a freaking department Teams call? 

I spent a lot of mental energy trying to figure out if there was subtext I was supposed to be inferring about that little comment.

I’m firmly on Team Say What You Mean and Mean What You Say. Especially for those in leadership. 

I think that's a common way to not single out someone who is violating the rule when there are several people, but depending how it things are phrased, it does run the risk of sending a mixed message, and there are versions of this that are more clear and less clear. It would've been more helpful to note what attire is on the naughty list and what is not since athleisure is so common and encompasses a lot of different kinds of looks.

2 hours ago, J-rap said:

I don't think that style of communication is normal or abnormal -- it's just a style.  I actually think her message seemed pretty direct!  She was telling you that manners are important at that particular school.  I wouldn't assume that there was a hidden message, like I wasn't doing my part.  If I did wonder that, I hope I'd just ask her.  

I know you went back and read things, but even without the other context, why would it be necessary to say that manners are important if something wasn't being directed at her? I would hope that in a professional setting, everyone thinks manners are important, even if they don't agree on what constitutes the specific manners in question. The only time I could think of someone not making a dig would be to complement someone, and complements aren't usually hard to discern, so I think that's not the case here.

[*****]

16 hours ago, Kanin said:

An example of this would be someone saying: "We think manners are really important at this school."

In the heat of the moment, I would  have been like OP and would not have known what to say, but would have felt it was directed at me.  (Raised in the midwest and Catholic, so maybe with some Catholic guilt here, would have thought the comment was directed at me rather than my class.) 

Whatever the case, now you will know next time to ask for clarity then and there. Maybe say, "Sure, I believe manners are important too. Can you be more specific?"  And make sure you are genuine when you say it, without any hint of an attitude, even if her comment was off-putting. (Believe me, I sympathize with you. Teacher here, Catholic, transplant, not on the spectrum, empathic, conscientious, over 50...) Yes, I believe this is a problem in the educational field. 

[J-rap]

50 minutes ago, kbutton said:

 

I know you went back and read things, but even without the other context, why would it be necessary to say that manners are important if something wasn't being directed at her? 

For some reason, I was imagining this being said in a casual setting while just chatting about the school in general.  At least that's where my brain went.  When I imagine it like that, it doesn't seem confrontational.  I could be imagining it wrong though!

[Laura Corin]

3 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

I think it is a shitty way of doing things.  My mother does something similar and she thinks she is being polite.   She'll say something like, "Do you want to load the dishwasher?"   As a late-teen I finally said, "No, I don't"   She got upset, but Dad backed me up maybe because she'd been particularly bad about it then.   
 

My colleague sends emails to  Masters applicants saying, 'We would be grateful if you could send us an up-to-date transcript...' That's particularly bad communication if you are writing to non-native English speakers. I'm going to talk to her about it this week. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Laura Corin

[goldberry]

Just sharing that communication style is a personal pet peeve of mine that women commonly engage in.  When my daughter was young, I used to ask her bluntly, "Are you making an announcement or asking for something?"  

"I'm thirsty."  Are you making an announcement or asking for something to drink?

Granted, that one is pretty easy to understand, but I did not want her to go down that road of "hinting" and expecting people to comply.

Adding, occasionally I would substitute with, "Thank you for that public service announcement." 

Edited May 15, 2022 by goldberry

[stephanier.1765]

When I had children in school and if a teacher gave me a vague comment, I took that to mean I could either address that with my child or not. If I didn't agree with whatever the teacher had hinted at, then I ignored it. If you don't tell me something directly and get upset when I don't abide by it, my response has always been, "Well you didn't tell me that." I guess that's passive-aggressive in response to passive-agressiveness. But I admit right upfront, that I have a ornery side.

[*****]

24 minutes ago, goldberry said:

communication style is a personal pet peeve of mine that women commonly engage in

Not necessarily women though. My husband used to be that way when our kids were little. He would 'ask' them, when really they had not choice. I had to tell him that he had to tell them, not ask. 

For some, it is a passive aggressive thing.  For others, I think it is a language thing.  They don't realize the difference between a question and a statement/direction. Or maybe they just don't reflect on the way they communicate. 

 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, ***** said:

Not necessarily women though. My husband used to be that way when our kids were little. He would 'ask' them, when really they had not choice. I had to tell him that he had to tell them, not ask. 

For some, it is a passive aggressive thing.  For others, I think it is a language thing.  They don't realize the difference between a question and a statement/direction. Or maybe they just don't reflect on the way they communicate. 

I think it's not at all unusual for parents to phrase imperatives like a question, as in "Would you like to empty the dishwasher," but people who do it effectively tend to tone/body language that is not mistaken as a request. I find with people who do this well, that it's really not something people take as a question at all. Others do not seem to have the demeanor to pull this off, and it's confusing. It's also perfectly legit to tell your kids, "I am asking in a nice tone, but it's really an order." 

My husband's FOO does a lot of weird communication that has made me second guess things. They do stuff like hint around and say passive-aggressive things. You just never know what's going to come out. But some of the things they do are done by other people, and the other people are super clear, not passive-aggressive, and you don't have to read their minds...so, I think there is more going on than words many times. On paper it might look the same; in person, it's not at all the same. 

I still think direct is better, but there are definitely ways that people are indirect while being unmistakable about their intent, and for them, it works. 

[katilac]

19 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The example you gave seems direct to me. It’s just a polite way of putting it. Are you possibly on the spectrum?  I would have to spell it out directly for my son on the spectrum. 

The fact that they value manners is direct. What they want the recipient of that statement to do is not only not direct, it's not there at all. Are you even asking me to do something?

18 hours ago, EKS said:

I think that's the typical female style a style common to females.  This and all of the some other typical common female things are what makes elementary school so difficult for a certain type of student.

I disagree strongly. More below. 

18 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

 Maybe the example above wasn't a particularly good one?  I would definitely take it as advice to reign my kids in overall.  If their manners were so rowdy that people actually commented on them, there might be work to do.  Usually, nobody is going to criticize a few isolated incidents.  If they say something then the kids have been a bit much for a while.  I'd rather hear "manners are important" than "Your classroom management skills are abysmal and your kids are a menace in the hallway. Why can't you deal with this without someone having to point it out to you?"  

 

There is a vast, yawning chasm between these two examples, lol. 

17 hours ago, regentrude said:

Sounds like these people may all be women? Would drive me crazy. That's one more reason why I like working in a male dominated field.  `

 

I can assure you that it's a very common communication style in the business world, for both men and women, even among managers who do have the 'right' to tell someone what to do and how to do it. 

You bring up preferring to work with men pretty often, but do you have any points of comparison? I think there might be some confirmation bias going on when people view this as a female 'style' of communicating; they notice when women do it, they don't notice when men do it. Or they label the women annoyingly indirect and the men polite. In the other direction, men are often approvingly labeled direct and women are often labeled . . . well, we all know what 'bossy' women are called. 

I've worked with a lot of men and a lot of women, and I think there are just a variety of personal styles, not male and female styles. 

3 hours ago, goldberry said:

 "I'm thirsty."   

 

"I, too, have thirsted." 

Edited May 15, 2022 by katilac

[EKS]

19 minutes ago, katilac said:

Or they label the women annoyingly indirect and the men polite.

Actually, my husband does this sort of thing all the time, and I can assure you that it is beyond annoying.  Only he's even worse than what was described by the OP, where at least the subject of the communication, vague as it was, was in the same universe as what was desired. 

[regentrude]

33 minutes ago, katilac said:

You bring up preferring to work with men pretty often, but do you have any points of comparison?

I have plenty of negative experiences with female groups in non-job situations for comparison. School scarred me for decades.

Edited May 15, 2022 by regentrude

[Kanin]

20 hours ago, TechWife said:

I’m making a suggestion I might not follow through on myself if I were in your position. Is it at all possible for you to circle back to them and say “I heard that you told Jane xyz - is there a reason you didn’t come directly to me with your concern?”

I have not, yet. Now I think I have a handle on the people who have concerns, and what their concerns might be. It will be interesting to see what their reasons are for not coming directly to me. 

[Kanin]

20 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Maybe the example above wasn't a particularly good one?  I would definitely take it as advice to reign my kids in overall.  If their manners were so rowdy that people actually commented on them, there might be work to do.  Usually, nobody is going to criticize a few isolated incidents.  If they say something then the kids have been a bit much for a while.  I'd rather hear "manners are important" than "Your classroom management skills are abysmal and your kids are a menace in the hallway. Why can't you deal with this without someone having to point it out to you?"  

Yes, perhaps this wasn't the best example. The message is loud and clear that something about my management style is amiss (in their minds), but I'm not clear on what exactly is bugging them. Kids too loud? So-and-so ran in the hall? What? 

I'm not sure I want to hear that my classroom management skills are abysmal, but specific feedback would be helpful. I agree that they're wondering why I can do X thing without X thing being pointed out. 

[Kanin]

19 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

(I am in many primary classrooms per day - almost every single teacher wants to moan, groan and complain about other teachers. I think they forget I hear from all of them. It's so unprofessional, but appears to be very normal. So yeah, I can see that you might find yourself in a situation where someone's moaning about you, because that seems to be part of teaching culture.)

 

I'm sure they're not thinking that you hear from everyone. Would be a wake up call for them if they realized it! 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Actually, my husband does this sort of thing all the time, and I can assure you that it is beyond annoying.  Only he's even worse than what was described by the OP, where at least the subject of the communication, vague as it was, was in the same universe as what was desired. 

Oh, I 100% find it annoying, lol. I just meant that men are often given a pass on it, or it just goes unnoted, whereas people are very quick to label it a female style of communicating and very quick to recognize it in women. 

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

I have plenty of negative experiences with female groups in non-job situations for comparison. School scarred me for decades.

I'm sorry to hear that. It seems like we (society) should have enough experience and knowledge with school/kids/etc. to at least prevent the worst of bullying if we can't lead the kids to not do it. But it seems like a constant up-and-down, with some schools and districts improving and others getting worse. 

But boys absolutely do emotionally bully and ostracize other boys, just as girls do, it's just different things that set it off. 

[Kanin]

18 hours ago, catz said:

To me in this setting it seems unprofessional as described   Like if teacher next door said, “hey could you try and get your kids to quiet down as you walk by our classroom.   It ends up being a distraction before lunch”. Or “hey teacher grade 2, in the fall the expectation is X, would you mind starting to work on that with your kids?”  Those seem like positive ways a teacher might give another teacher feedback.  

Like the example given seems like micromanaging or nit picking to me unless that affects another teacher directly?   Or if there is a school focus on some particular skill or behavior, it should be included with a workshop in the fall and regularly reinforced by admin through the year.  

Your first paragraph is exactly what I would like in terms of communication!

I can't think of much that happens in my room that affects anyone else directly. There may have been a school focus on behavior at some point, but it's not currently an initiative. This core group of teachers have worked there for 15-30 years so there's a lot of history there. My theory is that they've developed their own culture and way of communicating over many years, so much so that they don't realize that other people don't automatically understand it. Admin is not perturbed by my students in the least.

[Kanin]

13 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

At a recent meeting, my boss told the 4 of us there that she was going to bring up in a larger meeting the issue of people wearing sweatshirts on Teams calls and how it’s not professional. “I’m not directing this at anyone here, I just wanted you to know…”

Umm…if it’s not directed at anyone here, why are you telling us? If someone is doing something unprofessional, wouldn’t it be more effective to address that person? Are you talking about that one day I wore that purple athletic jacket because I was cold? Was that a problem? Are we REALLY concerned with comfortable wardrobe choices on a freaking department Teams call? 

Ugh! That would bug me. I'm with you - why bring it up if it's not directed at anyone there? 

[Kanin]

12 hours ago, MEmama said:

Passive aggressive “communication” drives me crazy, I’m sorry you’re being forced to deal with this, @Kanin. I agree with others, maybe there’s a kind but also clear way to turn their comments back on them by asking them to clarify. State your need for specifics—they sound like they are being intentionally vague, whether in an effort to come off “softer” (ugh, woman thing) or simply because they aren’t good at communicating their actual needs. Are they younger by chance? 

Actually, they're not younger. I would say in the 45-60 range. The younger teachers don't seem to need to control everyone else's actions. 

[Kanin]

8 hours ago, J-rap said:

I don't think that style of communication is normal or abnormal -- it's just a style.  I actually think her message seemed pretty direct!  She was telling you that manners are important at that particular school.  I wouldn't assume that there was a hidden message, like I wasn't doing my part.  If I did wonder that, I hope I'd just ask her.  

 

It's more than just chit-chat about the school. Picture a meeting about a student where X teacher wants student disciplined for doing something. Kanin thinks what the kid deserves a talking-to, but not a punishment. Other teacher then reiterates that there are very high behavioral expectations at this school. 

I'm probably not explaining it well, but I've probably hear the "high behavioral/manners expectations" line 25 times this year (not always directed at me). I'm always like, Uh huh, yup, me too! 

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Actually, my husband does this sort of thing all the time, and I can assure you that it is beyond annoying.  Only he's even worse than what was described by the OP, where at least the subject of the communication, vague as it was, was in the same universe as what was desired. 

I'd like to hear an example of this!

My example to my colleague was this. Imagine some teachers say to me, "We really love dogs!" and I reply, "That's great, I also love dogs!" Then two weeks later, I hear that people are saying to each other, "We told her that we love dogs! Why on earth hasn't Kanin adopted a dog yet?!" 

[Jean in Newcastle]

6 minutes ago, Kanin said:

It's more than just chit-chat about the school. Picture a meeting about a student where X teacher wants student disciplined for doing something. Kanin thinks what the kid deserves a talking-to, but not a punishment. Other teacher then reiterates that there are very high behavioral expectations at this school. 

I'm probably not explaining it well, but I've probably hear the "high behavioral/manners expectations" line 25 times this year (not always directed at me). I'm always like, Uh huh, yup, me too! 

To me, this is a way of disagreeing with you. They think that punishment is the way to maintain high behavioral/manners expectations. If the actual school administration doesn’t mind your way of enforcing your rules then I would ignore those who think otherwise. If I wanted to, I would say something like “ Principal A is fine with how I am dealing with Student “. The other teacher might still gossip about it with others who share her discipline style but you can’t control that. 

[goldberry]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

 

"I, too, have thirsted." 

Exactly! Love the reference!😉

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

I'm sorry to hear that. It seems like we (society) should have enough experience and knowledge with school/kids/etc. to at least prevent the worst of bullying if we can't lead the kids to not do it. But it seems like a constant up-and-down, with some schools and districts improving and others getting worse. 

But boys absolutely do emotionally bully and ostracize other boys, just as girls do, it's just different things that set it off. 

I wasn't just referring to bullying. That is horrible, yes; preteen girls in a pack can be absolutely vicious. (So can homeschooling mothers, btw; the worst bullying I ever witnessed was in a homeschool group, and the moms were the worst.)
But I was thinking more of the the whole clique/queen bee thing, the gossiping behind one's back, the hurt feelings over perceived slights, the drama, the power plays by withholding friendship/access to the popular girl, etc.  I have personally experienced my interactions in male groups as much more chill and direct and with far less drama. You got cred because you were good, not because you were besties with the clique queen.
Of course men can be a$$holes, too; but my experience with the group dynamic with women was simply not good. I had the first positive experience with a group of women in my 40s, but that group imploded big time, and I realize now how much of the "sisterhood" stuff there was fake and didn't last past lip service. Oh, and rampant toxic positivity.
I am wondering to what degree this has to do with the way girls and women are socialized, that makes relationships the big social currency and fodder for power play. I'd rather compete on more objective terms.

Edited May 15, 2022 by regentrude

[katilac]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

 But I was thinking more of the the whole clique/queen bee thing, the gossiping behind one's back, the hurt feelings over perceived slights, the drama, the power plays by withholding friendship/access to the popular girl, etc.  

Oh, I regard much of that as bullying, particularly the gossiping. Not somewhat lighthearted gossiping (did you hear who broke up?), but gossiping as in spreading harmful stories about a person. 

I don't think a female in a male-dominated group is getting the same experience that a male would, and vice-versa. It's very different dynamics, and of course work settings are very different than social settings (one hopes, anyway). 

I ran a lot of homeschool and social activities back in the day, and the teen years absolutely cured me of thinking girls brought more drama than boys 😂

[HS Mom in NC]

On 5/14/2022 at 9:36 PM, Kanin said:

We're all in the northeast so I'm not sure what's going on here. My DH says it's like a school in Twin Peaks. 

Don't buy into the "Are you on the spectrum?" reaction.  It was clearly vague and avoidant.

Small town or small city?  I notice that kind of communication style, which I loathe, is not only Midwestern and Southern, but also seems to be common from people in many regions of the US who aren't from mid-large sized cities.....and Mormons.

Also, personality can be a huge factor in this.  Analytical types are confused by it because we can immediately think of many different categories and examples of rudeness, which was mentioned upthread (Do they mean running in halls, using outside voices indoors, cutting in line, not responding at all when spoken to, taking without asking, not saying please and thank you,  etc. etc. etc....?) but the feelers are just thinking about all hurt feelings and want someone to feel motivated by the same thing, not at all thinking through the practical, specific details of  the words they're using.  It's infuriating because the feelers are often oblivious to the negative emotions they cause by being vague and the potential problems that result followed by more hurt feelings when they could've just saved everyone the hassle by speaking directly like an adult.

I'm confrontational enough to matter of factly ask directly what they mean:
"Do you mean (insert long list of rude behaviors like those in the above paragraph)? Or did you mean something else? Manners is a broad category, you'll need to be specific."

It's how I broke my husband of that bad habit.  His parents are pathologically avoidant and passive aggressive, so the deck was really stacked against him. Forcing to answer the confusion he caused with his vagueness made him aware that everyone else isn't in his head thinking his thoughts. Sure, everyone says they already know everyone isn't in their heads, but their behavior indicates otherwise. It's saves so much unnecessary conflict in the future when you immediately force the issue with vague people.

I know this may bother some people, but so many adults need to hear it: It is only reasonable to expect someone to read your mind if you are cognitively or physically incapable of articulating clearly. If you're capable of articulation and you're expecting someone to read your mind, you're begging to be infantalized. That's degrading yourself. Get licensed therapy if someone modeled for you or told you you can't or shouldn't directly articulate what you want, need, or think.  Ours is not a hierarchical society where you have to ingratiate yourself to your superiors, avoiding any potential accusation of being uppity.  Ours is an egalitarian society of peers who speak directly to each other.

Edited May 16, 2022 by HS Mom in NC

[Kanin]

35 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I'm confrontational enough to matter of factly ask directly what they mean:
"Do you mean (insert long list of rude behaviors like those in the above paragraph)? Or did you mean something else? Manners is a broad category, you'll need to be specific."

I'll be using that for sure! They may be shocked to have a specific list laid out for them.

35 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Also, personality can be a huge factor in this.  Analytical types are confused by it because we can immediately think of many different categories and examples of rudeness, which was mentioned upthread (Do they mean running in halls, using outside voices indoors, cutting in line, not responding at all when spoken to, taking without asking, not saying please and thank you,  etc. etc. etc....?) but the feelers are just thinking about all hurt feelings and want someone to feel motivated by the same thing, not at all thinking through the practical, specific details of  the words they're using.  It's infuriating because the feelers are often oblivious to the negative emotions they cause by being vague and the potential problems that result followed by more hurt feelings when they could've just saved everyone the hassle by speaking directly like an adult.

I never thought about analytical types vs. feelers. I'll have to mull that over!

It's good that your husband could learn to communicate more clearly! I'm going to force the issue with these vague talkers. You're right, they probably think they're communicating clearly, but their behavior shows that they expect others to read their minds.

[J-rap]

3 hours ago, Kanin said:

It's more than just chit-chat about the school. Picture a meeting about a student where X teacher wants student disciplined for doing something. Kanin thinks what the kid deserves a talking-to, but not a punishment. Other teacher then reiterates that there are very high behavioral expectations at this school. 

I'm probably not explaining it well, but I've probably hear the "high behavioral/manners expectations" line 25 times this year (not always directed at me). I'm always like, Uh huh, yup, me too! 

Yeah, explaining it that way does make it sound a lot stranger!

[El...]

This discussion reminds me of face-saving. In some environments/cultures (not all of them Asian but that's where I learned about it), directly correcting someone is too rude. You make oblique comments in the right context instead. This allows the person to change but retain their dignity. 

In the US, I've noticed that this feels passive aggressive, and most of the time it probably is just that. The gossip seems plain mean. But I want to throw that idea into your thought process in case it helps you figure out what is going on. 

[Tree Frog]

9 hours ago, goldberry said:

Adding, occasionally I would substitute with, "Thank you for that public service announcement." 

Our kids would say they were hungry. We would usually respond with "Nice to meet you, Hungry."

[Guest]

When I was a teen, my mother used to drop “you should clean” hints all the time; we would never pick up the hint, and then later she would say vaguely, “I see the Good Fairies didn’t swoop down and wash the dishes.” We would all look blankly like, nope; they didn’t! 
 

As a result, I have always been big on giving my kids clear imperatives if I expect compliance. “You need to wash the dishes after dinner.” I may throw a “please” on there, but there’s no doubt what I’m requiring. 

[BlsdMama]

I can help a little - this is my DH's way of communication.  I've learned, over years, to "translate" and it is, all love to him, a ridiculous way to communicate.  People who communicate this way feel it is a way of being nice.  They also tend to perceive bluntness as confrontational and are confrontational avoidant because they hold it in and then feel "unheard" and then tend to get irritable because they feel others don't listen to or value them.

"It sure is getting late..." is "Kids, bedtime!"
"Wow, busy weekend, the house got messy." is "Everyone clean up now."
"We have a lot to do" is "Everyone outside for yardwork" or insert current project.

This past year, I've tried to point out that he has unrealistic expectations that people be mind readers.  Saying, "Babe, do you want everyone to pick up?" has begun to point out that that is NOT what has been communicated but it has followed several arguments of, "Why are you mad?" "No one ignored what you said, what the heck are you talking about?"  He has had genuinely hurt feelings because this is his way of being polite.  He feels to say, "All right, everyone pick up," is rude.  I feel women are most likely to communicate in this manner.  It boggles my mind because it inevitably results in frustration (because what you want doesn't manifest because no one understood your code.)  Make your want clearly known.  Say what you're saying! I could not fathom liking any job enough to deal with a boss that communicates this way.  I do, however, really like DH and I'm invested in his improvement for his sake and the kids.  

Spoiler

 

 

[BlsdMama]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

When I was a teen, my mother used to drop “you should clean” hints all the time; we would never pick up the hint, and then later she would say vaguely, “I see the Good Fairies didn’t swoop down and wash the dishes.” We would all look blankly like, nope; they didn’t! 
 

As a result, I have always been big on giving my kids clear imperatives if I expect compliance. “You need to wash the dishes after dinner.” I may throw a “please” on there, but there’s no doubt what I’m requiring. 

I have a friend who is shocked that my kids do what I ask.  It's because I ask with no ambiguity - "Olivia, put away the dishes from the dishwasher right now please."  A sigh really doesn't communicate this and neither does, "I wish we had a maid."

[BlsdMama]

11 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

It's how I broke my husband of that bad habit.  His parents are pathologically avoidant and passive aggressive, so the deck was really stacked against him. Forcing to answer the confusion he caused with vagueness made him aware that everyone else isn't in his head thinking his thoughts. Sure, everyone says they already know everyone isn't in their heads, but their behavior indicates otherwise. It's saves so much unnecessary conflict in the future when you immediately force the issue with vague people.

I know this may bother some people, but so many adults need to hear it: It is only reasonable to expect someone to read your mind if you are cognitively or physically incapable of articulating clearly. If you're capable of articulation and you're expecting someone to read your mind, you're begging to be infantalized. That's degrading yourself. Get licensed therapy if someone modeled for you or told you you can't or shouldn't directly articulate what you want, need, or think.  Ours is not a hierarchical society where you have to ingratiate yourself to your superiors, avoiding any potential accusation of being uppity.  Ours is an egalitarian society of peers who speak directly to each other.

This - so very this.  Plus you save that other person because the flip side of communicating vaguely is a feeling of being disrespected or of low regard.  My DH is in a habit of not asking others to pitch in and working 3x as hard... Now, part of this is an excellent work ethic.  BUT so much of it is born of, "I'll just do it myself," because both at work or at home no one does what he *thinks* he asked - because he never asked.  

I think I'd start to ask, "What specifically would you like me to do to help this expectation?" Or better yet - "What are your top three priorities to accomplishing your goal?"

[Soror]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

I can help a little - this is my DH's way of communication.  I've learned, over years, to "translate" and it is, all love to him, a ridiculous way to communicate.  People who communicate this way feel it is a way of being nice.  They also tend to perceive bluntness as confrontational and are confrontational avoidant because they hold it in and then feel "unheard" and then tend to get irritable because they feel others don't listen to or value them.

"It sure is getting late..." is "Kids, bedtime!"
"Wow, busy weekend, the house got messy." is "Everyone clean up now."
"We have a lot to do" is "Everyone outside for yardwork" or insert current project.

This past year, I've tried to point out that he has unrealistic expectations that people be mind readers.  Saying, "Babe, do you want everyone to pick up?" has begun to point out that that is NOT what has been communicated but it has followed several arguments of, "Why are you mad?" "No one ignored what you said, what the heck are you talking about?"  He has had genuinely hurt feelings because this is his way of being polite.  He feels to say, "All right, everyone pick up," is rude.  I feel women are most likely to communicate in this manner.  It boggles my mind because it inevitably results in frustration (because what you want doesn't manifest because no one understood your code.)  Make your want clearly known.  Say what you're saying! I could not fathom liking any job enough to deal with a boss that communicates this way.  I do, however, really like DH and I'm invested in his improvement for his sake and the kids.  

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My husband is like this too. His mom is majorly passive aggressive so I'm certain he learned that from her.

He gets frustrated because his needs aren't being met at home or at work and then gets cranky. He lets people walk all over him and then starts taking everything as people bossing him around. I point it all the time. I rephrase things. He thinks I'm too direct. Case in point he's now spent 11-12 hours with customer service for an issue (I would have long since taken over except it was a technical issue and he knew all the ins and outs). It wasn't until after the 10th hour that he was like I need to talk to a supervisor. I told him it is not rude to ask for someone that can actually do a job after the people you've spoken to can't do it. You don't have to yell or curse (I do not) but you need to be firm. I don't know that I'll ever get him to come around on everything but I don't leave things ambiguous with the kids.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Soror

[catz]

I feel like communicating like this personally and doing it in a professional setting, especially when assumed inaction leads to gossip are 2 very different things.  I do live in the urban midwest and I don't feel like I get much of this.  But I was raised in a smaller community where I saw plenty of this and I was definitely raised to communicate this way.  But I also felt like part of it with my own upbringing as a female is your feelings and desires about a situation are probably the least important in the room and my number one priority was to "be nice".  So I totally get and understand and am empathetic to people who communicate like this.  I do think in some smaller communities and circles there is just a WAY things are done that everyone has ingrained and if you are the outsider, a lot of people feel like you should just KNOW even though you haven't been through years of indoctrination.  I also think there can be a tendancy to "other" an outsider.  It can lead to a toxic work culture if there becomes an incrowd that just knows how things are done and people aren't welcomed in and trained to company culture.

It reminds me of when my kids were small and they would just start whining about something and I would say USE YOUR WORDS.   Did the administration have an exit interview with the person who left recently?  Like if everyone new starting is an outsider that is just going to get hints about how things go down at the school and if admin is just blind to this I can see why turnover will be high with newcomers.  Maybe the school focus next year should be clearly communicating!  

I'm also not convinced your work peers aren't trying to micromanage a newcomer for no particular reason.  No one else knows the dynamics of your classroom and students better than the teacher in the room working with those kids day to day.  I think every fall teachers need to set a tone and expecations for their classroom with the group in the room and adjust accordingly.  

"

[Tanaqui]

1. Overall, you all are talking about "ask culture vs guess culture", and if you google that phrase you'll find a whole bunch of pieces on the subject with illuminating anecdotes, though I think the original usage was over at Ask Metafilter.

2. As far as "Why would somebody say something if it's not directed at anybody", my only guess is either a. they're mandated to say something for whatever reason even though none of the people they're responsible for did the thing or b. they want to make sure that it doesn't start to be a thing among the people who aren't doing it or c. they want to ensure that when they actually talk to the person who did the thing they can say "Yes, I did speak to everybody about this and not just you".

That last certainly seems ridiculous, especially when handling competent adults, but I am reminded that I did have to announce a new self-rule of "I will certainly talk to both children about ALL things, no matter what" after a particularly long period of "You always pick on me and never my sibling!" from both of them. (Why, yes, I suppose I do always assume that you are the one who left your jacket on the floor after you were the only one to go out all day....) This new rule annoyed both of them a lot faster than it annoyed me, and complaints died fast. But it's a bit silly to have to do with adults.

[Kanin]

7 hours ago, catz said:

 Did the administration have an exit interview with the person who left recently?  Like if everyone new starting is an outsider that is just going to get hints about how things go down at the school and if admin is just blind to this I can see why turnover will be high with newcomers.  Maybe the school focus next year should be clearly communicating!  

I'm also not convinced your work peers aren't trying to micromanage a newcomer for no particular reason.  No one else knows the dynamics of your classroom and students better than the teacher in the room working with those kids day to day.  I think every fall teachers need to set a tone and expecations for their classroom with the group in the room and adjust accordingly. 

I'm not sure about an exit interview. I'll find that out.

Like you, I'm also not convinced that they're not micromanaging just for the heck of it. The manners/behavior is just one example, and I can understand the reasoning behind it, even though I think the way it's being communicated is faulty. Other sources of complaints are much less important (like using a certain app in the classroom, or not - why some people care about whether a fellow teacher is using a certain app or not, I really can't fathom!). 

I think that the teachers that have been there for 15-30 years have maybe melded their work lives and personal lives together over the decades, so what happens at the school, even if it doesn't directly affect them, really matters to them. 

[Kanin]

7 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

1. Overall, you all are talking about "ask culture vs guess culture", and if you google that phrase you'll find a whole bunch of pieces on the subject with illuminating anecdotes, though I think the original usage was over at Ask Metafilter.

 

Oh wow! That's exactly it!!!