I am still so lividly angry at the bleepity bleep DMV

[Terabith]

Back in 2016, I realized that I had never updated the address on my driver's license from when we'd moved, so I went to the DMV and filled out the paperwork with the correct address.  One of the questions was, "Do you take any medication?"  I foolishly, FOOLISHLY told the truth on this form and listed my meds and under reason said, "Depression/ anxiety."  Months later, I got a form from the DMV saying that I had to have my doctor fill out a medical permit to continue to drive.  One of the questions was, "Has this patient been hospitalized for the condition?"  And in the fall of 2016, something shocking had happened in the political sphere, and also my meds quit working, and between the two things, I wound up spending a couple weeks on the psych ward to get new meds straightened out.  And when the DMV heard that I'd been hospitalized for depression, they revoked my license for six months.  

And now, for the REST OF MY LIFE, in order to keep my driver's license, my psychiatrist has to fill out a stupid form every year.  

I just got my latest form, and I'm still so freaking angry over this.  But because it's coached as a public safety measure, the legislature will not change the law.  I've consulted a lawyer and our state legislature.  There's nothing anyone can do.  Everyone is shocked that taking zoloft can get your license revoked, and yet, here we are.  

I am so pissed.  

[TravelingChris]

I would be super pissed too.

[Annie G]

I am pissed on your behalf. Every single week people get caught driving drunk and they don’t have to jump through hoops like you do. People who have PROVEN they are a danger behind the wheel!

It stinks when you are penalized for being honest. 

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, Annie G said:

I am pissed on your behalf. Every single week people get caught driving drunk and they don’t have to jump through hoops like you do. People who have PROVEN they are a danger behind the wheel!

It stinks when you are penalized for being honest. 

The first driving lesson my kids got was never, ever tell them about any meds you take.  

I have never had an accident and only one ticket in 30 years.  

[plansrme]

50 minutes ago, Terabith said:

But because it's coached as a public safety measure, the legislature will not change the law. 

I am angry for you, but surely this is not surprising any more. Obviously any restriction on individual liberty is permissible if it is characterized as a public safety measure. There is not even a requirement to prove any connection between public safety and the restriction. 

[Catwoman]

I’m so sorry, Terabith — this is so unfair!!! 

[Drama Llama]

I am so sorry.  What a mess!

[KidsHappen]

I just looked it up and 13% of Americans take anti-depressants. If you also consider people who take anti anxiety meds, mood stablizers, anti epileptic meds and narcotic pain meds I am sure we are talking about much closer to 50% of people taking meds that could affect driving and I am quite sure that not that many people are getting notes from their drs. All of my meds say not to drive until you are sure how the meds affect you. I don't recall ever being asked if I take meds but I will be on the look out for that and be sure not to answer it if ever asked. I am quite capable of telling if I am good to drive or not. It is currently not. I have not driven in over a year now because I still have neuropathy in my feet.

[Terabith]

I also don't understand why being hospitalized for depression should justify having license revoked for six months.  

[KSera]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I also don't understand why being hospitalized for depression should justify having license revoked for six months.  

I’m sorry to read this is the case and appreciate the heads up. I will pass along to relevant people in my life. My best guess would be that they are concerned about putting someone with SI behind the wheel. I knew someone who took their life driving head on into a larger vehicle and have always been a little paranoid about angry, hormonal teens having access to vehicles due to that. The way your state is attempting to regulate it makes no sense though. I don’t think this would be a helpful way to prevent that at all. I wonder how many states do that?

[Terabith]

Just now, KSera said:

I’m sorry to read this is the case and appreciate the heads up. I will pass along to relevant people in my life. My best guess would be that they are concerned about putting someone with SI behind the wheel. I knew someone who took their life driving head on into a larger vehicle and have always been a little paranoid about angry, hormonal teens having access to vehicles due to that. The way your state is attempting to regulate it makes no sense though. I don’t think this would be a helpful way to prevent that at all. I wonder how many states do that?

Right, especially since my doctor specifically wrote that he had absolutely no concerns about my driving on my initial form.  But yeah, it's definitely information to keep from the DMV.  

[Annie G]

21 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I also don't understand why being hospitalized for depression should justify having license revoked for six months.  

For real. What a way to keep people from getting help. What a cycle- you need help for depression but if you’re hospitalized your license might be restricted, but you need the license to get to your job which you need to keep your insurance and earn the money needed to treat the depression.

[Lisa]

That is crazy ridiculous!  Many people are on an anti-depressant/anti-anxiety meds. It makes no sense that they would suspend anyone's license for being admitted for depression. I'm so sorry!

[Jean in Newcastle]

This should vary by state. I did a little googling and saw a mention of this for a couple of states come up. But I also saw mention of how to appeal the decision. And legal advisers who specifically deal with this type of situation. 

[Carrie12345]

This happened to… some people I know… , not inside the DMV, but in the dr office for the form. And not for meds, but general statements. While one of them was recently “discharged” from pretty basic therapy because the therapist didn’t feel continuing was warranted.

They ended up just going to a different doctor, where a POTS diagnoses was noted on the form for one of them. Then the DMV said they couldn’t do their thing without sign off from their cardiologist, so they have to find a new cardiologist.

I agree with Annie G that it’s insane when considering the horrible things other people are doing behind the wheel.

[kristin0713]

This is terrible and I am so sorry! I never would have thought of this. I'm so glad you shared and that I am aware of this now before my kids start driving. Geez, anywhere else that they shouldn't disclose meds?? They always ask at the dentist and eye doctor. I know that some medications can affect your teeth and eyes but it still feels a little intrusive. 

[TheReader]

Oh, Terabith....I am so sorry. That is truly ridiculous, and makes no sense. 

Thank you for mentioning it; I need to google the info for my state and pass that along to my oldest. Holy cow. He's definitely one who'd be honest about it, too, so if this applies in our state I'll need to let him know not to disclose it, and why......ugh. 

So ridiculous. 

[scholastica]

I’m going to be devil’s advocate for not lying on official forms. If you are ever in an accident and they can prove you lied on the form, you could be in serious legal trouble. It wouldn’t take much to prove when a person started medication and when they signed the form. It stinks that the law is this way, but lots of people with medical conditions have to do this. Mental illness and treatment are medical conditions that may affect one’s ability to drive. Not always, but it can. I’m sorry it’s such a hassle.

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, scholastica said:

I’m going to be devil’s advocate for not lying on official forms. If you are ever in an accident and they can prove you lied on the form, you could be in serious legal trouble. It wouldn’t take much to prove when a person started medication and when they signed the form. It stinks that the law is this way, but lots of people with medical conditions have to do this. Mental illness and treatment are medical conditions that may affect one’s ability to drive. Not always, but it can. I’m sorry it’s such a hassle.

Give everyone accessible mental health care first. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is a UK site that explains some of the issues. I am sure that there are US sites/organizations too but I don’t have time to dig. 
 

https://www.rethink.org/advice-and-information/rights-restrictions/rights-and-restrictions/driving-and-mental-illness/

[scholastica]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

Give everyone accessible mental health care first. 

That’s a separate issue from advising people to do legally sketchy things.

[Carrie12345]

Just now, scholastica said:

That’s a separate issue from advising people to do legally sketchy things.

It’s a separate issue for people who can get by without driving for 6 months AND somehow manage to have multiple appointments without a drivers license AND afford all of those visits.

It’s the same exact issue for those who can’t.

[Dmmetler]

When my neurologist put me on anticonvulsant meds for basilar arterial migraine, he said that I should not let the DMV know about the DX, and that he trusted me not to drive if I had any symptoms. (While I can go into a seizure state during a migraine, I will have severe headache, nausea, vomiting, and visual disturbances before it gets to that stage). He said the DMV was unable to differentiate between disorders that made driving unsafe and those where you’ll be too sick to drive long before you’d pose a risk to others, and that it would put me more at risk to be unable to drive. (And, technically, migraines are not a disqualifying DX, but because the med I was on at the time was used for Epilepsy, it would be considered disqualifying). 
 

The same neuro also gave me a lot of suggestions on how to manage situations with alcohol present without standing out, so I could choose to explain my medical issues in my own time. I greatly admire him for that, especially since I was underage with regards to drinking at that time.

 

I didn’t have a car in college, so my keeping my license for those years didn’t really change anything, but it avoided a lot of hassle down the road when my hormones were a lot more stable and I was able to get off of most of the meds. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Dmmetler

[scholastica]

1 minute ago, Dmmetler said:

When my neurologist put me on anticonvulsant meds for basilar arterial migraine, he said that I should not let the DMV know about the DX, and that he trusted me not to drive if I had any symptoms. (While I can go into a seizure state during a migraine, I will have severe headache, nausea, vomiting, and visual disturbances before it gets to that stage). He said the DMV was unable to differentiate between disorders that made driving unsafe and those where you’ll be too sick to drive long before you’d pose a risk to others, and that it would put me more at risk to be unable to drive. 
 

The same neuro also gave me a lot of suggestions on how to manage situations with alcohol present without standing out, so I could choose to explain my medical issues in my own time. I greatly admire him for that, especially since I was underage with regards to drinking at that time.

 

 

 

 

My dad developed a condition that caused the doctor to tell him he could not drive. He told him that he wouldn’t inform the state, but if my dad got into an accident, he would have to tell the authorities that he had instructed my dad not to drive. That’s a whole lot of liability that a person is taking on when they lie about something like that. Yes, it stinks that life is unfair and some of us have more hoops to jump through than others. I have my fair share if extra hoop jumping, as well. That does not justify lying on an official government document. 

[scholastica]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

It’s a separate issue for people who can get by without driving for 6 months AND somehow manage to have multiple appointments without a drivers license AND afford all of those visits.

It’s the same exact issue for those who can’t.

The guy who loses his license for speeding or driving drunk would make the same argument  when caught driving without one. It doesn’t make it ok to lie. 

[Dmmetler]

2 minutes ago, scholastica said:

My dad developed a condition that caused the doctor to tell him he could not drive. He told him that he wouldn’t inform the state, but if my dad got into an accident, he would have to tell the authorities that he had instructed my dad not to drive. That’s a whole lot of liability that a person is taking on when they lie about something like that. Yes, it stinks that life is unfair and some of us have more hoops to jump through than others. I have my fair share if extra hoop jumping, as well. That does not justify lying on an official government document. 

My neuro was clear that I could safely drive as long as I wasn’t having symptoms. I suspect the fact that I was a high school senior going to college out of state had a lot to do with his reasoning. I also already had my license, so I didn’t have to lie on any documentation. Rather, it was that he made the decision not to report it since the condition I was taking it for did not require it.
 

Basically, he followed the letter of the law, but made sure I knew that was what he was doing. It also meant that once I was more stable, I knew to ask the doctor at that time if we could try to get off anticonvulsants, because eventually I WOULD be in a situation where I’d have to report. 

 

[Lady Florida.]

Oh Terabith that sucks! I'm sorry you're going to have to deal with this just for being honest.

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

Oh Terabith that sucks! I'm sorry you're going to have to deal with this just for being honest.

I mean, I've been dealing with it for six years now.  I'm just still really, REALLY pissed about it.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, scholastica said:

My dad developed a condition that caused the doctor to tell him he could not drive. He told him that he wouldn’t inform the state, but if my dad got into an accident, he would have to tell the authorities that he had instructed my dad not to drive. That’s a whole lot of liability that a person is taking on when they lie about something like that. Yes, it stinks that life is unfair and some of us have more hoops to jump through than others. I have my fair share if extra hoop jumping, as well. That does not justify lying on an official government document. 

That's totally different than a person having a condition that does NOT impair their ability to drive, but take a medication that is sometimes used with people that do have issues that preclude driving. 

[KidsHappen]

7 hours ago, scholastica said:

I’m going to be devil’s advocate for not lying on official forms. If you are ever in an accident and they can prove you lied on the form, you could be in serious legal trouble. It wouldn’t take much to prove when a person started medication and when they signed the form. It stinks that the law is this way, but lots of people with medical conditions have to do this. Mental illness and treatment are medical conditions that may affect one’s ability to drive. Not always, but it can. I’m sorry it’s such a hassle.

I would not lie and say I was not taking meds when I was but I would certainly choose not to answer that question, especially if my doctor felt I was safe to drive.

[scholastica]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

That's totally different than a person having a condition that does NOT impair their ability to drive, but take a medication that is sometimes used with people that do have issues that preclude driving. 

No. The same thing would happen. You have to get a doctor to sign off that you are safe to drive. That’s what happens with people with epilepsy, which I also have a family member dealing with. Terabith has to have her doctor sign off that she’s okay to drive. It stinks, but it is a medical condition that sometimes causes problems.

[ktgrok]

54 minutes ago, scholastica said:

No. The same thing would happen. You have to get a doctor to sign off that you are safe to drive. That’s what happens with people with epilepsy, which I also have a family member dealing with. Terabith has to have her doctor sign off that she’s okay to drive. It stinks, but it is a medical condition that sometimes causes problems.

You think all Americans with depression or anxiety should need a yearly doctor note to drive?

[scholastica]

22 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

You think all Americans with depression or anxiety should need a yearly doctor note to drive?

No I think that sometimes medications affect the ability to drive and if a person is on such medications, it’s not a given that it is unreasonable for the licensing entity ask the person to provide proof from the prescribing physician to certify that it is not affecting the person in a way that would impair them. That’s what this is about. It’s not about the diagnosis, it’s about the medications. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, scholastica said:

No I think that sometimes medications affect the ability to drive and if a person is on such medications, it’s not a given that it is unreasonable for the licensing entity ask the person to provide proof from the prescribing physician to certify that it is not affecting the person in a way that would impair them. That’s what this is about. It’s not about the diagnosis, it’s about the medications. 

But even benedryl can make it so you shouldn't drive..no one requires anyone to have a doctor's note for taking allergy medication or unisom or whatever. 

And in the one poster's case, it seems the problem isn't the meds, but that some people who take them have a condition that makes them unable to drive. But she takes it for a different reason. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by ktgrok

[scholastica]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

But even benedryl can make it so you shouldn't drive..no one requires anyone to have a doctor's note for taking allergy medication or unisom or whatever. 

And in the one poster's case, it seems the problem isn't the meds, but that some people who take them have a condition that makes them unable to drive. But she takes it for a different reason. 

All those medications are labeled in such a way that tell you not to drive or operate heavy machinery, so if you do, you are liable. Again, providing the doctor’s certification that this is not impairing the person is what is required. Yes, that is an additional obstacle. Yes, that is a hassle. She’s not taking it for a different reason. The state is keeping tabs on whether she is a danger to herself or others behind the wheel.

Whether or not they should us a separate issue from whether or not to lie on an official government document. People were suggesting that others not truthfully fill out forms like that. That is lying. When you sign your name you attest that you have truthfully answered the questions. To leave it blank is to lie by omission. Neither is ok.

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, scholastica said:

All those medications are labeled in such a way that tell you not to drive or operate heavy machinery, so if you do, you are liable. Again, providing the doctor’s certification that this is not impairing the person is what is required. Yes, that is an additional obstacle. Yes, that is a hassle. She’s not taking it for a different reason. The state is keeping tabs on whether she is a danger to herself or others behind the wheel.

Whether or not they should us a separate issue from whether or not to lie on an official government document. People were suggesting that others not truthfully fill out forms like that. That is lying. When you sign your name you attest that you have truthfully answered the questions. To leave it blank is to lie by omission. Neither is ok.

Ok, so why is a label okay for unisom, or the muscle relaxer I take, but not for an anti anxiety drug?

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by ktgrok

[scholastica]

Just now, ktgrok said:

Ok, so why is a label okay for unisom, or the muscle relaxer I take, but not for an anti anxiety drug?

 

Ask the FDA. They are the ones who decide those things. 
It looks like from the original post that the DMV is concerned that she was hospitalized for depression, not medication . Since one can can harm others with a vehicle should one decide to harm oneself, apparently it is of concern to legislators in some states. 
Whether or not that is fair, it is not okay to lie on official documents which is my point. 

[Clemsondana]

It seems like there should be a statute of limitations on this.  I had childhood epilepsy, and part of why I waited a few years after I was 16 to get a license was that my dr said that if it had been at least 2? 5? (not sure the number) years since my last seizure, I didn't have to fill it in as a problem because it wasn't currently.  Which makes sense...it would be crazy for me to be needing a dr note when I haven't had a seizure or taken medicine or seen a neurologist in 25 years.  Likewise, if the concern is hospitilization, maybe the same 2 or 5 year period makes sense, but forever seems a bit extreme.  

[TheReader]

26 minutes ago, scholastica said:

All those medications are labeled in such a way that tell you not to drive or operate heavy machinery, so if you do, you are liable. Again, providing the doctor’s certification that this is not impairing the person is what is required. Yes, that is an additional obstacle. Yes, that is a hassle. She’s not taking it for a different reason. The state is keeping tabs on whether she is a danger to herself or others behind the wheel.

Whether or not they should us a separate issue from whether or not to lie on an official government document. People were suggesting that others not truthfully fill out forms like that. That is lying. When you sign your name you attest that you have truthfully answered the questions. To leave it blank is to lie by omission. Neither is ok.

I will clarify that it was not Terabith who advocated omitting the information. 

In my case/my son's case, he has not yet faced this. And I can't tell from our state DMV website if it will be an issue or not. I will have him ask his doctor about it. I don't actually recall a question on the forms for driver's license that ask that question; I hope it's a non-issue for him.  But a hospitalization a few years ago should not warrant him on his still a few years in the future driver's license renewal having to provide a doctor's note about his medical worthiness to drive at that point -- not when the renewal is 5 yrs past the hospital date (or longer). I'd still council him to omit that information, honestly, however wrong you feel it might be. 

[TheReader]

6 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

It seems like there should be a statute of limitations on this.  I had childhood epilepsy, and part of why I waited a few years after I was 16 to get a license was that my dr said that if it had been at least 2? 5? (not sure the number) years since my last seizure, I didn't have to fill it in as a problem because it wasn't currently.  Which makes sense...it would be crazy for me to be needing a dr note when I haven't had a seizure or taken medicine or seen a neurologist in 25 years.  Likewise, if the concern is hospitilization, maybe the same 2 or 5 year period makes sense, but forever seems a bit extreme.  

yes, this. 

 

[scholastica]

Just now, TheReader said:

I will clarify that it was not Terabith who advocated omitting the information. 

In my case/my son's case, he has not yet faced this. And I can't tell from our state DMV website if it will be an issue or not. I will have him ask his doctor about it. I don't actually recall a question on the forms for driver's license that ask that question; I hope it's a non-issue for him.  But a hospitalization a few years ago should not warrant him on his still a few years in the future driver's license renewal having to provide a doctor's note about his medical worthiness to drive at that point -- not when the renewal is 5 yrs past the hospital date (or longer). I'd still council him to omit that information, honestly, however wrong you feel it might be. 

You have to do what you feel is right. Usually, there’s a certain number of years (or months) post-incident that this needs to be provided. Hopefully your son will be out of the window if there is one in your state. 

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

You think all Americans with depression or anxiety should need a yearly doctor note to drive?

Not just a note from any doctor.  It has to be a note from a PSYCHIATRIST.  So if your family doctor is prescribing your antidepressant, you're SOL.  

[Terabith]

20 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

It seems like there should be a statute of limitations on this.  I had childhood epilepsy, and part of why I waited a few years after I was 16 to get a license was that my dr said that if it had been at least 2? 5? (not sure the number) years since my last seizure, I didn't have to fill it in as a problem because it wasn't currently.  Which makes sense...it would be crazy for me to be needing a dr note when I haven't had a seizure or taken medicine or seen a neurologist in 25 years.  Likewise, if the concern is hospitilization, maybe the same 2 or 5 year period makes sense, but forever seems a bit extreme.  

It has been seven years since I was hospitalized, and I still have to have the form filled out every year.  It is, in fact, a forever thing.  

[Terabith]

I have even pondered moving out of state, because as long as I move when my license is in good standing, I would be fine, but that seems a drastic thing to do.  

[TheReader]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I have even pondered moving out of state, because as long as I move when my license is in good standing, I would be fine, but that seems a drastic thing to do.  

Hugs to you; I don't think it sounds all that drastic, if there were other reasons to move as well, or other job opportunities, or no specific ties to where you are. 

People move for all kinds of reasons...this seems like not a bad one. I'd suggest my state, but it would be very undesirable for other reasons that would matter to you/your family, (and I'm unclear on this med/hospital issue and the DMV, anyway).  Recent political changes in my state do have folks moving out of it, though.....something that impacts your life in such a real and dramatic way really do make decent reasons to move. 

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, TheReader said:

Hugs to you; I don't think it sounds all that drastic, if there were other reasons to move as well, or other job opportunities, or no specific ties to where you are. 

People move for all kinds of reasons...this seems like not a bad one. I'd suggest my state, but it would be very undesirable for other reasons that would matter to you/your family, (and I'm unclear on this med/hospital issue and the DMV, anyway).  Recent political changes in my state do have folks moving out of it, though.....something that impacts your life in such a real and dramatic way really do make decent reasons to move. 

Yeah, otherwise, our state is a good place for us, and my oldest is going to college here, and my in laws live here.  It would be too drastic, given the circumstances.  For awhile, I had to have doctors notes every six months, which was seriously infuriating.  

[TravelingChris]

On 4/8/2022 at 9:19 PM, KidsHappen said:

I just looked it up and 13% of Americans take anti-depressants. If you also consider people who take anti anxiety meds, mood stablizers, anti epileptic meds and narcotic pain meds I am sure we are talking about much closer to 50% of people taking meds that could affect driving and I am quite sure that not that many people are getting notes from their drs. All of my meds say not to drive until you are sure how the meds affect you. I don't recall ever being asked if I take meds but I will be on the look out for that and be sure not to answer it if ever asked. I am quite capable of telling if I am good to drive or not. It is currently not. I have not driven in over a year now because I still have neuropathy in my feet.

This,  I don't drive when I take certain medications but do when I am able to drive.  

[Carrie12345]

I just double checked my states DL renewal form to be sure; there are zero medical questions.  It’s basically, is your DL suspended in another state? Have you done crime? Would you like to donate money?

The only medical element is on the permit, so the first time you apply to drive, and only agin if your stuff lapses at some point. For most people, that means one time around age 16. And then the DMV doesn’t care to ask. If they don’t care that *I* have mental health issues, why should they care if my neighbor does just because they have different timing? It’s asinine.

[wintermom]

Sorry, I haven't read all the replies, so this may be redundant. 

It's really surprising that the question about medications is on the form. We're you supposed to not answer it? What are the potential problems for people who do not provide this information? The whole thing sounds like a legal and political mess. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by wintermom