Student Loan Forgiveness

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

I know two young people, one with a four year psychology degree and one with a master's in social work. The psychology degree young person took an administrative type job with a hospice/palliative care organization and the MSW took a job doing home health checks with another hospice/palliative care agency. These are jobs that very much need doing. Both loved the jobs. Neither stayed very long. Even though one had no college debt and one had very little, neither position paid a real living wage. Both have moved on to other jobs with better pay, better schedules, more benefits, etc. And yet . . the previous jobs they were doing need to be done.

I don't know what the answer is.

At least for me, part of the answer seems to be greatly improving our k12 system. Were college degrees really even needed for either of those jobs? We’ve so failed in our administration of k12 education in this country that a significant chunk of students graduate with no marketable skills and not even basic reading, writing, and math ability. A high school diploma is basically meaningless anymore and to me, that is one of the root causes of the great inequality in our society. 
 

And personally, except for a box you can check on an application, I think we are starting to move that way when it comes to a college degree. It’s starting to lose its meaning and value.
 

While my large school district definitely has issues, I’m at least glad that they have moved away from the college prep model for all to a greatly expanded and well funded CTE program. This is research proven to increase graduation rates and engagement, even for students who ultimately choose the traditional four year college route.

While I’m fine with programs like two free years of CC, so many of the solutions seem like a bandaid for a terrible, messed up k12 system. By waiting to try and remedy the problem at age 18, we’ve just made it more expensive and less likely to be successful.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Frances

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

If they could get the program to be administered correctly, it’s my understanding that this is precisely why they instituted the student loan forgiveness program for those working for non-profits, including government agencies.

I recently learned that my specific area does have college cost incentives for social workers.  They are not widely advertised. Some of the people involved with the agency themselves did not know.
But even then it’s not a full solution. $15-17/hr still doesn’t stretch without student loans.
Says a mom of a young adult in that salary range in another necessary profession that holds the fabric together. Without student loans.

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I recently learned that my specific area does have college cost incentives for social workers.  They are not widely advertised. Some of the people involved with the agency themselves did not know.
But even then it’s not a full solution. $15-17/hr still doesn’t stretch without student loans.
Says a mom of a young adult in that salary range in another necessary profession that holds the fabric together. Without student loans.

Yup, my friend that is a social worker works nights, because her salary will not cover daycare for her kids. So, she just doesn't really sleep much. this had had an effect on her health, obviously. The other alternative was to just not have kids. 

As a society, those choices cost us - be it in medical costs for in lost productivity in the future, for lack of people procreating. 

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

This is the market at work!  You value tomatoes grown and picked a particular way and you are willing to pay for that value.  You are unwilling to pay for tomatoes grown and picked another way and you avoid purchasing them.  The market respects those values.  Other people, have different values and the market respects those values.   You and I may not agree with those values, but it is not our place to dictate what others should value.  I LOVE bell pepppers; I am willing to pay several dollars for a bell pepper; I do not expect someone else to pay several dollars for my bell pepper simply because I like them and value them highly.  I don't care too much for brussel sprouts; I will not pay several dollars for brussel sprouts; I do not value them highly--but if someone else values them and wants to encourage the growing and harvesting of brussel sprouts in a particular way the market allows for them to encourage what they value.

My disconnect comes when I hear people talk about how important education is, how much they value education but then say that they value it so much they shouldn't have to pay for it, someone else should provide it for them.  

 

Sure, *I have taken 1 stand on 1 product, which the vast majority of people don’t care to join me in, even though it takes insanely little effort. But there are a million on which I don’t have the ability to take a stand, and even fewer people would even if they could. Because we, as a whole, are conditioned and stupid, just like I said.

You’re not going to convince me that it’s not my place to insist people value the existence of other people.  That I shouldn’t insist that tomato pickers be represented and protected. That at-risk kids shouldn’t have social workers who themselves have to rely on food stamps and other basic assistance. Or that people should ignore the fact that our clothes are made by impoverished people in underdeveloped countries. Or that corporations rule our country.

You might as well tell me that people shouldn’t have dictated abolishing slavery, the creation of child labor laws, or the involvement of women in manly things, like voting. ‘Cuz the a-holes in charge were just fine with the way things were.

[Frances]

14 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I recently learned that my specific area does have college cost incentives for social workers.  They are not widely advertised. Some of the people involved with the agency themselves did not know.
But even then it’s not a full solution. $15-17/hr still doesn’t stretch without student loans.
Says a mom of a young adult in that salary range in another necessary profession that holds the fabric together. Without student loans.

I’m fortunate to live in a state that seems to pay social workers better, at least when they work for the government. And the benefits are excellent. If they could just get housing costs under control. Here they also lowered the degree requirement for child case workers to an associate’s degree and will provide additional training and certification. They wanted a diverse workforce with a variety of life experiences.

[Carrie12345]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

I’m fortunate to live in a state that seems to pay social workers better, at least when they work for the government. And the benefits are excellent. If they could just get housing costs under control. Here they also lowered the degree requirement for child case workers to an associate’s degree and will provide additional training and certification. They wanted a diverse workforce with a variety of life experiences.

I truly hope they’re successful.
Our housing market isn’t *as insane as many other places. But it’s enough to prevent homeownership in most situations with household incomes under $75-100k. And our median hh income is $63.

[Ting Tang]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I know two young people, one with a four year psychology degree and one with a master's in social work. The psychology degree young person took an administrative type job with a hospice/palliative care organization and the MSW took a job doing home health checks with another hospice/palliative care agency. These are jobs that very much need doing. Both loved the jobs. Neither stayed very long. Even though one had no college debt and one had very little, neither position paid a real living wage. Both have moved on to other jobs with better pay, better schedules, more benefits, etc. And yet . . the previous jobs they were doing need to be done.

I don't know what the answer is.

Yes, a lot of people eventually try to switch careers and move on.  Some of those jobs are downright dangerous, dealing with challenging populations.  

[Murphy101]

22 hours ago, Bootsie said:

This is the market at work!  You value tomatoes grown and picked a particular way and you are willing to pay for that value.  You are unwilling to pay for tomatoes grown and picked another way and you avoid purchasing them.  The market respects those values.  Other people, have different values and the market respects those values.   You and I may not agree with those values, but it is not our place to dictate what others should value.  I LOVE bell pepppers; I am willing to pay several dollars for a bell pepper; I do not expect someone else to pay several dollars for my bell pepper simply because I like them and value them highly.  I don't care too much for brussel sprouts; I will not pay several dollars for brussel sprouts; I do not value them highly--but if someone else values them and wants to encourage the growing and harvesting of brussel sprouts in a particular way the market allows for them to encourage what they value.

My disconnect comes when I hear people talk about how important education is, how much they value education but then say that they value it so much they shouldn't have to pay for it, someone else should provide it for them.  

 

What someone else? You talk like they are not taxpayers and citizens in the same society as you.  This is othering them to make it seem like they are some kind of moochers. They aren’t. I’m not expecting “someone else” to provide me roads or libraries or many other things that society has rightly decided we all benefit from having and therefore should pool our resources together to provide via taxes and other government organized means. It benefits me. It benefits you. It benefits the older and younger generations. And we all pay for it as a society with an agreed upon government. 

18 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Yes, a lot of people eventually try to switch careers and move on.  Some of those jobs are downright dangerous, dealing with challenging populations.  

This is the other cost of not having a degree. I think trades are very valuable and needed, but many people who work in them do not want their kid to job shadow them bc they want their kid to do a “better” as in healthier and better benefits and more prosperous line of work.  Construction can be great pay until you get sick or hurt and have no ability to pay for treatment or rent while unemployed. Many people in trades have little access to safety nets that are supposed to be intended to help in very typical of life situations. 

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

What someone else? You talk like they are not taxpayers and citizens in the same society as you.  This is othering them to make it seem like they are some kind of moochers. They aren’t. I’m not expecting “someone else” to provide me roads or libraries or many other things that society has rightly decided we all benefit from having and therefore should pool our resources together to provide via taxes and other government organized means. It benefits me. It benefits you. It benefits the older and younger generations. And we all pay for it as a society with an agreed upon government. 

This is the other cost of not having a degree. I think trades are very valuable and needed, but many people who work in them do not want their kid to job shadow them bc they want their kid to do a “better” as in healthier and better benefits and more prosperous line of work.  Construction can be great pay until you get sick or hurt and have no ability to pay for treatment or rent while unemployed. Many people in trades have little access to safety nets that are supposed to be intended to help in very typical of life situations. 

More prosperous? The trades pay very, very well here. Our next door neighbor owns a small masonry business. All of his employees make over $100k per year and pre-pandemic he was eating out almost every night at the best restaurant in town. Another neighbor owns a small tile business and is most definitely upper middle class. Another is a pipe fitter and his wife works as a bookkeeper for the same business and they own seven rental homes besides the one they live in. They are on track to retire by 50.

I mean I know there are pros and cons to every career, but a trade job cannot be exported overseas. There will always be a need for highly skilled tradespeople. And it’s not like people with degrees are guaranteed a good job with good benefits. Lots of people with degrees are seriously underemployed or go through long periods of unemployment or have few or crappy benefits.

My dad was a highly skilled trades person, as were many men I knew growing up. My husband and I have three graduate STEM degrees between us. We would have been thrilled had our only child decided to pursue the trades and build up a business with or without a degree. 

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

More prosperous? The trades pay very, very well here. Our next door neighbor owns a small masonry business. All of his employees make over $100k per year and pre-pandemic he was eating out almost every night at the best restaurant in town. Another neighbor owns a small tile business and is most definitely upper middle class. Another is a pipe fitter and his wife works as a bookkeeper for the same business and they own seven rental homes besides the one they live in. They are on track to retire by 50.

I mean I know there are pros and cons to every career, but a trade job cannot be exported overseas. There will always be a need for highly skilled tradespeople. And it’s not like people with degrees are guaranteed a good job with good benefits. Lots of people with degrees are seriously underemployed or go through long periods of unemployment or have few or crappy benefits.

My dad was a highly skilled trades person, as were many men I knew growing up. My husband and I have three graduate STEM degrees between us. We would have been thrilled had our only child decided to pursue the trades and build up a business with or without a degree. 

Definitely no true everywhere. I think it was true for when you could start without a degree or expensive training, but not now. I hear people talk about how say, welding is SO lucrative, but I looked into it and it was like 30K a year here. 

My dad started with trade school, for electronics. He started out working on alarm systems with a company that does banking equipment. Then worked up to ATM machines. Then eventually became a local, then district manager, then was offered even higher positions he didn't take because he didn't want to uproot the family and move to Ohio. 

When he started we were hand to mouth,a nd that was with mom working as a nurse. As in, not sure how he'd afford to buy us dinner at the end of the day. Borrowed money from family many times, no health insurance, used and hand me down everything, no AC (in florida!), etc. 

Yes, he made more as he moved up - but if he were starting now that would not be possible, as he didn't have a college degree. To move into management now you need a 4 yr degree. So he was a success, and it would be VERY easy to point to his story and say see! Trade school worked! Except..his scenario would NEVER happen now. It's impossible. 

[Frances]

54 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Definitely no true everywhere. I think it was true for when you could start without a degree or expensive training, but not now. I hear people talk about how say, welding is SO lucrative, but I looked into it and it was like 30K a year here. 

My dad started with trade school, for electronics. He started out working on alarm systems with a company that does banking equipment. Then worked up to ATM machines. Then eventually became a local, then district manager, then was offered even higher positions he didn't take because he didn't want to uproot the family and move to Ohio. 

When he started we were hand to mouth,a nd that was with mom working as a nurse. As in, not sure how he'd afford to buy us dinner at the end of the day. Borrowed money from family many times, no health insurance, used and hand me down everything, no AC (in florida!), etc. 

Yes, he made more as he moved up - but if he were starting now that would not be possible, as he didn't have a college degree. To move into management now you need a 4 yr degree. So he was a success, and it would be VERY easy to point to his story and say see! Trade school worked! Except..his scenario would NEVER happen now. It's impossible. 

I can understand the need for a degree if you want to move into management for an existing company. All of the scenarios I’m familiar with are either owners without a degree or highly skilled people working for a company and they do not want to be in management. Their skills are sought after, so they make good $. Of course, just like lots of new college grads, they didn’t start out making the big bucks and had to scrimp and save. But as their skills increased and they picked up new ones (often paid for by the company), so did their earnings. My dad always had good health insurance and he received a pension and after he retired, his company brought him back part, part time at a very high hourly rate plus mileage, meals, etc to train others.

[Faith-manor]

46 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Definitely no true everywhere. I think it was true for when you could start without a degree or expensive training, but not now. I hear people talk about how say, welding is SO lucrative, but I looked into it and it was like 30K a year here. 

My dad started with trade school, for electronics. He started out working on alarm systems with a company that does banking equipment. Then worked up to ATM machines. Then eventually became a local, then district manager, then was offered even higher positions he didn't take because he didn't want to uproot the family and move to Ohio. 

When he started we were hand to mouth,a nd that was with mom working as a nurse. As in, not sure how he'd afford to buy us dinner at the end of the day. Borrowed money from family many times, no health insurance, used and hand me down everything, no AC (in florida!), etc. 

Yes, he made more as he moved up - but if he were starting now that would not be possible, as he didn't have a college degree. To move into management now you need a 4 yr degree. So he was a success, and it would be VERY easy to point to his story and say see! Trade school worked! Except..his scenario would NEVER happen now. It's impossible. 

This is how it is here. Electrical journey men are the trades making serious cash. But the program is had to get into and hard to pass. So if one is not wanting the academic work and study of college, then don't even think about this one. Most of the local trades folks we know who do not have two and four year degrees live hand to mouth. They can't get hired at the commercial firms, and locally there isn't enough work to get forty hours a week because there are too many mom and pop trades workers. So yes, they can charge $50-100 an hour. On the other hand, many of them do not get more than 15-20 hours per work of work, and take overhead costs out of that, and self I employment tax (social security withholding is double), and they are not doing well. Most of them have a spouse working a professional job, someone who has a degree or got into the school district or hospital or whatever and has full time work that is reliable and health benefits. I know exactly ONE construction guy out of a plethora who managed to get in with a firm that has benefits and regular 40 hour a week employment. He doesn't even live with his family because it is a traveling job and his lodging is provided near the job site. He is home one weekend out of every four, and has three weeks paid vacation per year. He is a phantom to his kids.

This stuff is very regional too. Some areas really do have people doing well in trades, and many of them without associates or bachelors degrees. Others not. My niece is in construction management. Man that woman is paid well! (Required a four year degree and her company does not employ anyone for this position without that degree.) Her benefits are great. On the other hand, she was assigned a two year project 550 miles from home. They pay for her apartment and her flights every weekend to go home and see her husband. But, they are spending two days a week together plus a couple of vacations for the next two years, and that is it. She has been informed, as well as her colleagues, that this is how it is going to be until they retire.

The key with trades is the physicality of it. It is hard on the body, as a person ages, gets pretty darn tough to do, and often impossible before the person reaches the required retirement age to get SS and Medicare. These folks need to be in management at some point, but despite the years of experience, many will not be able to get management jobs without degrees because there is business accounting, and marketing knowledge that these companies and even small business owners want that the trade person doesn't often have.

It just varies a lot, and people cannot predict the future. So I am always hesitant when someone proclaims the next big "Everyone should go into this because there are tons of jobs available." The other thing about trades is that licensing is not reciprocal between states due such a wide variance in building codes and public health and safety laws. So if one can't get work in their home state, it isn't like they can just go to where the jobs are plentiful.

[Frances]

36 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

This is how it is here. Electrical journey men are the trades making serious cash. But the program is had to get into and hard to pass. So if one is not wanting the academic work and study of college, then don't even think about this one. Most of the local trades folks we know who do not have two and four year degrees live hand to mouth. They can't get hired at the commercial firms, and locally there isn't enough work to get forty hours a week because there are too many mom and pop trades workers. So yes, they can charge $50-100 an hour. On the other hand, many of them do not get more than 15-20 hours per work of work, and take overhead costs out of that, and self I employment tax (social security withholding is double), and they are not doing well. Most of them have a spouse working a professional job, someone who has a degree or got into the school district or hospital or whatever and has full time work that is reliable and health benefits. I know exactly ONE construction guy out of a plethora who managed to get in with a firm that has benefits and regular 40 hour a week employment. He doesn't even live with his family because it is a traveling job and his lodging is provided near the job site. He is home one weekend out of every four, and has three weeks paid vacation per year. He is a phantom to his kids.

This stuff is very regional too. Some areas really do have people doing well in trades, and many of them without associates or bachelors degrees. Others not. My niece is in construction management. Man that woman is paid well! (Required a four year degree and her company does not employ anyone for this position without that degree.) Her benefits are great. On the other hand, she was assigned a two year project 550 miles from home. They pay for her apartment and her flights every weekend to go home and see her husband. But, they are spending two days a week together plus a couple of vacations for the next two years, and that is it. She has been informed, as well as her colleagues, that this is how it is going to be until they retire.

The key with trades is the physicality of it. It is hard on the body, as a person ages, gets pretty darn tough to do, and often impossible before the person reaches the required retirement age to get SS and Medicare. These folks need to be in management at some point, but despite the years of experience, many will not be able to get management jobs without degrees because there is business accounting, and marketing knowledge that these companies and even small business owners want that the trade person doesn't often have.

It just varies a lot, and people cannot predict the future. So I am always hesitant when someone proclaims the next big "Everyone should go into this because there are tons of jobs available." The other thing about trades is that licensing is not reciprocal between states due such a wide variance in building codes and public health and safety laws. So if one can't get work in their home state, it isn't like they can just go to where the jobs are plentiful.

Of course not everyone should go into it, just those with the aptitude and interest. That’s why my son didn’t do it, he doesn’t have the aptitude like my dad or husband. He’s bright enough that he could likely have learned well, but he doesn’t have that inner desire to constantly make or fix things.

All the complaints about trades except perhaps the physical part could be made about a whole plethora of jobs people hold with or without college degrees.

And there’s no way my dad could ever have earned a college degree, despite teaching technical classes at a CC and being president of the local school board and being a passionate, life long learner. He had undiagnosed learning issues around writing and spelling, although he loved to read and through hard work became an excellent public speaker. And while he excelled at applied math, struggled greatly with more abstract or conceptual math. Someone with his aptitude and skills would be a great fit for an engineering major, but academics was not his strength, and he could never have completed such a degree. A four year college would have been a terrible fit for him. And he had zero interest in management or the business side of things, so would never have pursued a business degree.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Frances

[Corraleno]

My father worked a series of blue collar jobs his whole life, and was still working at the age of 85, just to put food on the table. Both of my brothers were diagnosed with cancer in their 40s while uninsured, and ended up with huge medical debt; one died and the other is in his 60s, with health problems, no pension, very little savings. Another relative, also in his early 60s, has always worked in construction; now he has serious heart problems, is struggling to work, and he and his wife have no health insurance, no pension, and not much savings.  I know business owners who are financially well off in their 60s, but that's very different from being a mechanic, or a construction worker, or a fisherman, or whatever.

Poor people in this country are so screwed. If you don't want to be poor, just get a degree so you can get a better job! Oh, but don't borrow money to get the degree that you can't otherwise afford, because then you'll be stuck paying it off for the rest of your life and it'll be your own damn fault. Just go into the "trades" and you'll make even better money than a lot of people with degrees! Oh, the trades that actually make decent money also require expensive training you'd have to borrow to access? Well, just pick another blue collar job and work your way up (to the management levels that do require the degree you don't have). Oh, you worked your ass off your whole life in a blue collar job, and now you have no pension or savings and you can barely afford to eat? Well then you should've saved more money (that you didn't have because you were struggling to feed your kids and keep the heat on and keep your beater car running). Sucks to be you! So glad I made better "choices" and therefore deserve what I have!

 

 

[elegantlion]

28 minutes ago, Frances said:

 

All the complaints about trades except perhaps the physical part could be made about a whole plethora of jobs people hold with or without college degrees.

 

The physical part can be a huge issue in the trades, especially for small self-employed individuals (not larger owner/operators) or those that can't work their way out/up into less rigorous part of the work. 

My ex worked until he physically couldn't. He was on disability at 58 because of health issues. 

Another friend, who worked a more sedentary job, had similarly depilitating health issues and was able to work while going through surgery and treatment.  It felt weird watching these two things happen at the same time. 

I'm all for the trades. I just think there needs to be better recognition that what may seem easy at 20 or even 30 is going to physically harder to do at 45, 50 or 60. It's like being a athlete, there is a limitation on how much a body can take before you need to engage your backup plan. Not everyone has enough discipline, income, or luck to save enough to retire at 50.

 

[teachermom2834]

Another issue I see with the trades is that it seems if you do not own your own business you can top out your earning potential while a white collar employee might be able to keep progressing. Maybe I’m not saying this clearly but one thing I’ve pointed out to my kids is that lots of times people will point out that without a degree they are making more at 25 yo than the guy with the BS. And the 25 yo who didn’t waste time and money in college is laughing at the guy that did. And then at 35 maybe they make the same. And the 35 yo blue collar worker is still laughing at college grad still working on his student loans. Then at 45 yo the white collar worker is pulling out ahead and the blue collar guy is complaining about his aches and pains. Then the white collar worker really takes off and has twenty more years to work making far more money. It’s a very long game and doesn’t make much sense to a 20 yo but I’ve seen it play out.

Of course there are a hundred different ways things can go but sometimes that trade worker finds they need a degree to move up administratively so they can keep progressing. Or they need to own their own business. Otherwise that very respectable wage they had in their 30s just doesn’t increase over time with them in the way a white collar career often does. 
 

It’s complex.

[Murphy101]

28 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

Another issue I see with the trades is that it seems if you do not own your own business you can top out your earning potential while a white collar employee might be able to keep progressing. Maybe I’m not saying this clearly but one thing I’ve pointed out to my kids is that lots of times people will point out that without a degree they are making more at 25 yo than the guy with the BS. And the 25 yo who didn’t waste time and money in college is laughing at the guy that did. And then at 35 maybe they make the same. And the 35 yo blue collar worker is still laughing at college grad still working on his student loans. Then at 45 yo the white collar worker is pulling out ahead and the blue collar guy is complaining about his aches and pains. Then the white collar worker really takes off and has twenty more years to work making far more money. It’s a very long game and doesn’t make much sense to a 20 yo but I’ve seen it play out.

Of course there are a hundred different ways things can go but sometimes that trade worker finds they need a degree to move up administratively so they can keep progressing. Or they need to own their own business. Otherwise that very respectable wage they had in their 30s just doesn’t increase over time with them in the way a white collar career often does. 
 

It’s complex.

I have seen this exact scenario play out around me my entire life.

I tell my kids, save every dime you can for the day when you can’t. It’s not bad luck. It’s life. You will get sick or injured or pregnant or a tornado will hit your house or your boss’ company will “suddenly” go belly up and whatever else that happens every single day to people in our nation that has really extremely little social safety net and less every day for younger people.

Because it’s pretty unusual for a bookkeeper to be unable to work in bad weather or to need an ER visit due to a work mishap - but most bookkeepers have unemployment and medical benefits and most construction and contract workers and most physically demanding jobs do not.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

And I do want to say I am all for trades. Most of my adult children so far work in trades or trade/white collar mix type job. And I’m tremendously proud of them. But let’s not white wash trades as some get rich quick scheme either.  The “big” money is because it’s a big risk with a lot of unseen expenses and a lot of time and physical health and family health is poured into the work they do.

And trades need educated workers too.

[Frances]

43 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

And I do want to say I am all for trades. Most of my adult children so far work in trades or trade/white collar mix type job. And I’m tremendously proud of them. But let’s not white wash trades as some get rich quick scheme either.  The “big” money is because it’s a big risk with a lot of unseen expenses and a lot of time and physical health and family health is poured into the work they do.

And trades need educated workers too.

Of course it’s not some get rich quick scheme. The people I know who are successful have worked long and hard to achieve what they have and sacrificed much, just as many successful white collar people I know have done. But most college degrees are not some get rich quick scheme either or a guarantee of anything. Especially now that some are becoming like many high school diplomas, virtually worthless. And part of that is because we pushed so many people to get four year degrees and focused on college prep for all in high school at the expense of strong CET programs and making sure every high school grad has solid reading, writing, and math skills.

Yes, trades needs educated workers. So let’s make a high school diploma mean something again in this country instead of graduating so many people who are lacking in basic skills or can’t test into intro level college courses. And let’s continue to have and expand tuition free CC programs so students can choose a trade and/or an academic route. And also strengthen and expand high school CTE programs, apprenticeships, and other post high school hands on job training programs.

[KidsHappen]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

This is how it is here. Electrical journey men are the trades making serious cash. But the program is had to get into and hard to pass. So if one is not wanting the academic work and study of college, then don't even think about this one. Most of the local trades folks we know who do not have two and four year degrees live hand to mouth. They can't get hired at the commercial firms, and locally there isn't enough work to get forty hours a week because there are too many mom and pop trades workers. So yes, they can charge $50-100 an hour. On the other hand, many of them do not get more than 15-20 hours per work of work, and take overhead costs out of that, and self I employment tax (social security withholding is double), and they are not doing well. Most of them have a spouse working a professional job, someone who has a degree or got into the school district or hospital or whatever and has full time work that is reliable and health benefits. I know exactly ONE construction guy out of a plethora who managed to get in with a firm that has benefits and regular 40 hour a week employment. He doesn't even live with his family because it is a traveling job and his lodging is provided near the job site. He is home one weekend out of every four, and has three weeks paid vacation per year. He is a phantom to his kids.

This stuff is very regional too. Some areas really do have people doing well in trades, and many of them without associates or bachelors degrees. Others not. My niece is in construction management. Man that woman is paid well! (Required a four year degree and her company does not employ anyone for this position without that degree.) Her benefits are great. On the other hand, she was assigned a two year project 550 miles from home. They pay for her apartment and her flights every weekend to go home and see her husband. But, they are spending two days a week together plus a couple of vacations for the next two years, and that is it. She has been informed, as well as her colleagues, that this is how it is going to be until they retire.

The key with trades is the physicality of it. It is hard on the body, as a person ages, gets pretty darn tough to do, and often impossible before the person reaches the required retirement age to get SS and Medicare. These folks need to be in management at some point, but despite the years of experience, many will not be able to get management jobs without degrees because there is business accounting, and marketing knowledge that these companies and even small business owners want that the trade person doesn't often have.

It just varies a lot, and people cannot predict the future. So I am always hesitant when someone proclaims the next big "Everyone should go into this because there are tons of jobs available." The other thing about trades is that licensing is not reciprocal between states due such a wide variance in building codes and public health and safety laws. So if one can't get work in their home state, it isn't like they can just go to where the jobs are plentiful.

I was going to make this same point myself. My ex-husband is an excellent master carpenter (working in the construction industry) and has made a decent living so far but he is in his sixties now and I really don't think he can continue this kind of hard labor until retirement age. He did go on to college as a first generation adult and I think he may now own his own construction company so maybe he will be ok but that is certainly not the case for everyone in the trades. His father before him was also in construction and he had to retire early and live very poorly until he died at 85. My son is also in construction (no college) and his body is already giving out at 40. He has had many serious injuries without any medical coverage and I have no idea what he is going to do as he ages.  

[Carrie12345]

My dad this, my dad that… our dads are old, lol.

My dad worked retail. My mom sometimes worked retail and eventually customer service. It afforded them a suburban house, two cars, three kids, an all-summer RV resort, and additional camping trips. Nothing glamorous, but fully functional. 
Show me 1.5 retail jobs that can swing that in 2022.

Please don’t get me started on the 50s. 

[KidsHappen]

1 hour ago, elegantlion said:

The physical part can be a huge issue in the trades, especially for small self-employed individuals (not larger owner/operators) or those that can't work their way out/up into less rigorous part of the work. 

My ex worked until he physically couldn't. He was on disability at 58 because of health issues. 

Another friend, who worked a more sedentary job, had similarly depilitating health issues and was able to work while going through surgery and treatment.  It felt weird watching these two things happen at the same time. 

I'm all for the trades. I just think there needs to be better recognition that what may seem easy at 20 or even 30 is going to physically harder to do at 45, 50 or 60. It's like being a athlete, there is a limitation on how much a body can take before you need to engage your backup plan. Not everyone has enough discipline, income, or luck to save enough to retire at 50.

 

Yes, My father was an electronic engineer in the Navy for 26 years when he retired from the Navy. In case you are not familiar the pay in the military is very low and retirement is even lower. Once he got out, he could not get a job in that field even with 26  years experience because he did not have a degree and even if he got a degree he would have had to start at the bottom. He decided to use his retirement pay and benefits to get a degree in accounting instead and if he budgets his money carefully he will probably make it through retirement without starving to death. 

[Sneezyone]

19 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Yes, My father was an electronic engineer in the Navy for 26 years when he retired from the Navy. In case you are not familiar the pay in the military is very low and retirement is even lower. Once he got out, he could not get a job in that field even with 26  years experience because he did not have a degree and even if he got a degree he would have had to start at the bottom. He decided to use his retirement pay and benefits to get a degree in accounting instead and if he budgets his money carefully he will probably make it through retirement without starving to death. 

FTR, military retirement isn’t what it once was. Many service people have the opportunity to earn college credits and degrees while serving. Most NCOs, E-7 and above, have AT LEAST a two year degree.

[KidsHappen]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

FTR, military retirement isn’t what it once was. Many service people have the opportunity to earn college credits and degrees while serving. Most NCOs, E-7 and above, have AT LEAST a two year degree.

I am so glad to hear that. My hubby got out almost 30 years ago and my father probably ten years before that. My hubby did get college help but he still had to start at the bottom of his new career when he got out but he was able to move up much quicker than if he had no college.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

I am so glad to hear that. My hubby got out almost 30 years ago and my father probably ten years before that. My hubby did get college help but he still had to start at the bottom of his new career when he got out but he was able to move up much quicker than if he had no college.

Yeah, now there a lot of articulation agreements in place to give credit for the military’s own training pipelines plus CLEP and tuition assistance (less generous than when DH started). It’s still a good deal considering it doesn’t take away from your GI Bill to use it.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Carrie12345]

13 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

FTR, military retirement isn’t what it once was. Many service people have the opportunity to earn college credits and degrees while serving. Most NCOs, E-7 and above, have AT LEAST a two year degree.

Maybe I’m naive, but I was shocked and outraged to learn that a corpsman friend of ours (in actual war zones) not only needed to start civilian training from scratch, he had to pay for it himself. How that’s not like graduating college and then retaking high school courses is beyond me.

 

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Maybe I’m naive, but I was shocked and outraged to learn that a corpsman friend of ours (in actual war zones) not only needed to start civilian training from scratch, he had to pay for it himself. How that’s not like graduating college and then retaking high school courses is beyond me.

 

Depends on a) a the state where they’re trying to get licensure, the program they’re applying to, and the school they’re trying to be accepted into. There are paths. Search Navy corpsman transfer. It took DH 18 mos for his BS using CLEP, college classes offered *on* deployed ships, and two more for his MA. We cash-flowed it and saved the GI Bill for our kids.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

Of course it’s not some get rich quick scheme. The people I know who are successful have worked long and hard to achieve what they have and sacrificed much, just as many successful white collar people I know have done. But most college degrees are not some get rich quick scheme either or a guarantee of anything. Especially now that some are becoming like many high school diplomas, virtually worthless. And part of that is because we pushed so many people to get four year degrees and focused on college prep for all in high school at the expense of strong CET programs and making sure every high school grad has solid reading, writing, and math skills.

Yes, trades needs educated workers. So let’s make a high school diploma mean something again in this country instead of graduating so many people who are lacking in basic skills or can’t test into intro level college courses. And let’s continue to have and expand tuition free CC programs so students can choose a trade and/or an academic route. And also strengthen and expand high school CTE programs, apprenticeships, and other post high school hands on job training programs.

No argument from me there. I agree on nearly all points. 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Depends on a) a the state where they’re trying to get licensure, the program they’re applying to, and the school they’re trying to be accepted into. There are paths. Search Navy corpsman transfer. It took DH 18 mos for his BS using CLEP, college classes offered *on* deployed ships, and two more for his MA. We cash-flowed it and saved the GI Bill for our kids.

To the best of my knowledge, he wasn’t ever looking at a degree track. He works as an EMT, with the skills and experience of a paramedic. After taking the EMT course and tests post-service. In our area, paramedic school is its own thing. But it’s the principle that astounds me. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Carrie12345

[shawthorne44]

I've been thinking about some of the examples given here.   Like the person with the pysch. degree, what job and salary did they expect to get?   If you ask random people on the street what job someone with a psych degree gets after college the answer will be, "barista."   I don't know about where you guys went to school, but it was a joke degree at mine and we resented it being lumped in with Science.  Social Work has been mentioned a couple of times.   That isn't known for being a lucrative degree and since it is gov., you know about what the salary will be.   If the salary won't pay for the required degree then go to a cheaper school or do something else.   Except for in the earliest part, college students are adults.   

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing is that if someone with a high school degree has to take remedial classes, the high school should have to pay for those classes.    I also wouldn't mind colleges being required to set a minimum salary at some time period after college.   Maybe 6 months to a year after graduation.   They could set requirements on it similar to Unemployment.   If you can't get a job at that salary after college, then you get some of your money back.   If colleges set their minimum salary for XYZ degree at 20K, that would be informative.  

Edited April 4, 2022 by shawthorne44

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

I've been thinking about some of the examples given here.   Like the person with the pysch. degree, what job and salary did they expect to get?   If you ask random people on the street what job someone with a psych degree gets after college the answer will be, "barista."   I don't know about where you guys went to school, but it was a joke degree at mine and we resented it being lumped in with Science.  Social Work has been mentioned a couple of times.   That isn't known for being a lucrative degree and since it is gov., you know about what the salary will be.   If the salary won't pay for the required degree then go to a cheaper school or do something else.   Except for in the earliest part, college students are adults.   

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing is that if someone with a high school degree has to take remedial classes, the high school should have to pay for those classes.    I also wouldn't mind colleges being required to set a minimum salary at some time period after college.   Maybe 6 months to a year after graduation.   They could set requirements on it similar to Unemployment.   If you can't get a job at that salary after college, then you get some of your money back.   If colleges set their minimum salary for XYZ degree at 20K, that would be informative.  

I mean, I know my friend that graduated with a dual major in marketing and finance didn't expect to be working as a waitress...but that was the job that made her the most money. She later went on to start her own business, but yeah...hard to predict. 

[Sneezyone]

24 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

To the best of my knowledge, he wasn’t ever looking at a degree track. He works as an EMT, with the skills and experience of a paramedic. After taking the EMT course and tests post-service. In our area, paramedic school is its own thing. But it’s the principle that astounds me. 

The person probably needed to do more homework. The principle of transferability has been upheld, especially in the last 10-20 years. It does require work/hoop-jumping tho and that’s mostly a state/locality issue. DH is a mustang (Enlisted to Officer) and has counseled numerous folks on how to do it. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

NPR had a brief bit about student loans today, and one thing mentioned by their finance expert was that there is no standard way that schools document the finance options they are offering, so trying to determine the best package, or even the true cost of what is being offered, is very difficult. 

[Melissa Louise]

19 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

I've been thinking about some of the examples given here.   Like the person with the pysch. degree, what job and salary did they expect to get?   If you ask random people on the street what job someone with a psych degree gets after college the answer will be, "barista."   I don't know about where you guys went to school, but it was a joke degree at mine and we resented it being lumped in with Science.  Social Work has been mentioned a couple of times.   That isn't known for being a lucrative degree and since it is gov., you know about what the salary will be.   If the salary won't pay for the required degree then go to a cheaper school or do something else.   Except for in the earliest part, college students are adults.   

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing is that if someone with a high school degree has to take remedial classes, the high school should have to pay for those classes.    I also wouldn't mind colleges being required to set a minimum salary at some time period after college.   Maybe 6 months to a year after graduation.   They could set requirements on it similar to Unemployment.   If you can't get a job at that salary after college, then you get some of your money back.   If colleges set their minimum salary for XYZ degree at 20K, that would be informative.  

When I did my psych degree, it was with the expectation that I would be able to go on to do my Masters, and work as an educational psychologist, with a rate of $ absolutely adequate to my needs. 

Unfortunately, illness in the family derailed that. 

A psych undergrad is pretty useless, true, but many people taking it at that level will anticipate graduate study as well, in which case, it's a fine degree. 

It's a social science. 

 

[Carrie12345]

16 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

  Social Work has been mentioned a couple of times.   That isn't known for being a lucrative degree and since it is gov., you know about what the salary will be.   If the salary won't pay for the required degree then go to a cheaper school or do something else. 

What do you consider an acceptable tuition for a $15/hr job with a 4 year degree or $17 with a master’s?

What recommendations do you have for students living at home to avoid R&B, and handed a partial scholarship, but would still make crap money?

Who do you think should become social workers? Those who marry young for a second income? Heirs and heiresses? People who know for sure they don’t want kids? 

I believe we need them to be the people with the temperament and skills to withstand horrors. And they should be able to pay basic freaking bills. 

[Pawz4me]

34 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

I've been thinking about some of the examples given here.   Like the person with the pysch. degree, what job and salary did they expect to get?   If you ask random people on the street what job someone with a psych degree gets after college the answer will be, "barista."   I don't know about where you guys went to school, but it was a joke degree at mine and we resented it being lumped in with Science.  Social Work has been mentioned a couple of times.   That isn't known for being a lucrative degree and since it is gov., you know about what the salary will be.

Neither person I mentioned expected to be making big bucks. They took the jobs they did because they had a passion for doing that kind of work, to help others. But I think they kinda maybe did expect to make more than they could make working part time at Walmart, and to not have to beg for a holiday off here and there, you know? But the point I was making was more than that. It's that the jobs they were doing were actually important, essential jobs. People need hospice and palliative care organizations. We need people to check in on homebound elderly people. At least I hope as a society we recognize the need for people to do those jobs? I hope? But how can we keep those essential jobs filled when people can go to Walmart and make more money?

And yes, FWIW -- As I posted earlier, one of those people has a MSW and has already taken a better paying job with better benefits. The other is well on their way to getting a masters in epidemiology and has also taken a better paying job with better benefits. But the point remains -- the jobs they were doing are essential jobs. We need people to do them, just like we need people to be teachers and child care works and home health aids and CNAs and I could go on and on. I don't know how we keep those jobs filled if we don't compensate people enough.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Pawz4me

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

What do you consider an acceptable tuition for a $15/hr job with a 4 year degree or $17 with a master’s?

What recommendations do you have for students living at home to avoid R&B, and handed a partial scholarship, but would still make crap money?

Who do you think should become social workers? Those who marry young for a second income? Heirs and heiresses? People who know for sure they don’t want kids? 

I believe we need them to be the people with the temperament and skills to withstand horrors. And they should be able to pay basic freaking bills. 

This.  Oh, and it's easy for us adults to say that someone should have known better.  Teenagers and inexperienced young adults are making these decisions to borrow tens of thousands of dollars.  I didn't have a lot of guidance. My parents put me in a bind, and I had to take out private loans with fluctuating interest rates. I can't even believe student loans can function that way.  I know I have nobody to blame but myself...  But those loans are predatory.  I know a lot of people who go into nonprofit/social services don't come from wealthy backgrounds. They want to help people. Maybe it is because of what they experienced themselves.  It's one field you can work hard in and never make enough to get ahead.  

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Ting Tang

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

This.  Oh, and it's easy for us adults to say that someone should have known better.  Teenagers and inexperienced young adults are making these decisions to borrow tens of thousands of dollars.  I didn't have a lot of guidance. My parents put me in a bind, and I had to take out private loans with fluctuating interest rates. I can't even believe student loans can function that way.  I know I have nobody to blame but myself...  But those loans are predatory.  I know a lot of people who go into nonprofit/social services don't come from wealthy backgrounds. They want to help people. Maybe it is because of what they experienced themselves.  It's one field you can work hard in and never make enough to get ahead.  

 

Exactly. We are talking about people with NO previous financial expertise or knowledge, who are seen as prey by lenders. They go to the financial aid office thinking those people are experts and won't steer them wrong. 

[Ting Tang]

48 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Exactly. We are talking about people with NO previous financial expertise or knowledge, who are seen as prey by lenders. They go to the financial aid office thinking those people are experts and won't steer them wrong. 

I was 17/18. I was book smart, and that’s about it. I literally thought on a $30,000 salary (which I could not even get at the time) I could easily pay off close to that borrowed amount in a short period of time. I was very naive. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Bootsie]

5 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

IOne thing I wouldn't mind seeing is that if someone with a high school degree has to take remedial classes, the high school should have to pay for those classes.    I also wouldn't mind colleges being required to set a minimum salary at some time period after college.   Maybe 6 months to a year after graduation.   They could set requirements on it similar to Unemployment.   If you can't get a job at that salary after college, then you get some of your money back.   If colleges set their minimum salary for XYZ degree at 20K, that would be informative.  

I really don't see how this would be workable.  The university can't guarantee a salary for a degree when they do not get to choose which jobs a student applies for, what the student wears to the interview, how the student grooms their hair, what the student puts on his or her resume, whether the student shows up for work on time...  

DD had a friend who majored in drama at a private school, taking on a great deal of debt.  The friend graduated at near the top of the class and could have accepted a number of high-paying jobs.  But, she wanted to accept an internship with a theater in another city.  She set up a go-fund-me-page to cover her living expenses.  Then she got married and is now a stay-at-home mom, all the while complaining about her large debt.  Why should the university give her any of her money back because she has decided not to make use of her degree?

[Carrie12345]

7 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I was 17/18. I was book smart, and that’s about it. I literally thought on a $30,000 salary (which I could not even get at the time) I could easily pay off close to that borrowed amount in a short period of time. I was very naive. 

And, not for nothing, it’s HARD to formally teach teens about the entirety of personal finance.  Prioritizing all the individual things and still making it all cohesive in a full-year course is hard, never mind a semester.

I made my own course (with solid resources) to try to cover as much as humanly possible.  But it’s hard to get a dozen 16yos to write a shopping list for adequately nutritious food, believe they could be rear-ended or break a leg, truly process the difference between investing small amounts while young vs. larger amounts when they’re older, recognize the expenses involved with buying or renting a dump, or even how much a winter coat can cost.

So many of their answers WERE to be frugal. By 16yo standards.  “I’ll just eat pb&j.” For 10 years?  “I’ll live on a well and septic.” Here’s your $2k pump. “I’ll eat healthy so I won’t get sick.” That’s my favorite. “I’ll buy my clothes at Walmart.” Every season, since they won’t hold up.
They’re not UNWILLING to cut corners.  They just don’t have a clear sense of the roundness of the situation they’re walking into.

(I don’t aim to paint every single 16yo that way.  But, on average…)

ETA: And who the heck are we to pretend we actually know the situation they’ll be facing in 10 or 20+ years???

Edited April 5, 2022 by Carrie12345

[shawthorne44]

15 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

What do you consider an acceptable tuition for a $15/hr job with a 4 year degree or $17 with a master’s?

What recommendations do you have for students living at home to avoid R&B, and handed a partial scholarship, but would still make crap money?

Who do you think should become social workers? Those who marry young for a second income? Heirs and heiresses? People who know for sure they don’t want kids? 

I believe we need them to be the people with the temperament and skills to withstand horrors. And they should be able to pay basic freaking bills. 

A job that makes $15/hr - $17/hr shouldn't require a degree at all.   A B.S. shouldn't be what a HS diploma was.   

"Social Workers", Another job that shouldn't require a B.S.    People should be able to leave H.S. with an education.  

A great many of the jobs that require degrees don't truly use that degree.   Think about how much better financially people would be if they could start working earlier and also didn't have college loans because they didn't go to college.  

[Amy in NH]

3 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

A job that makes $15/hr - $17/hr shouldn't require a degree at all.   A B.S. shouldn't be what a HS diploma was.   

"Social Workers", Another job that shouldn't require a B.S.    People should be able to leave H.S. with an education.  

A great many of the jobs that require degrees don't truly use that degree.   Think about how much better financially people would be if they could start working earlier and also didn't have college loans because they didn't go to college.  

And ignore all the research that shows people earn more over the course of their lifetimes, and have better health and social outcomes as well, the more education they receive.

[ktgrok]

28 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

A job that makes $15/hr - $17/hr shouldn't require a degree at all.   A B.S. shouldn't be what a HS diploma was.   

"Social Workers", Another job that shouldn't require a B.S.    People should be able to leave H.S. with an education.  

A great many of the jobs that require degrees don't truly use that degree.   Think about how much better financially people would be if they could start working earlier and also didn't have college loans because they didn't go to college.  

You don’t think social workers, who often have a masters, should even need a bachelors degree?

[shawthorne44]

29 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

You don’t think social workers, who often have a masters, should even need a bachelors degree?

I don't see why.    Special employer-provided training, yes.  Maybe an associates.   
I'm not denigrating the job and I know it is a tough one.    

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, shawthorne44 said:

A job that makes $15/hr - $17/hr shouldn't require a degree at all.   A B.S. shouldn't be what a HS diploma was.   

"Social Workers", Another job that shouldn't require a B.S.    People should be able to leave H.S. with an education.  

A great many of the jobs that require degrees don't truly use that degree.   Think about how much better financially people would be if they could start working earlier and also didn't have college loans because they didn't go to college.  

Wow.
Are you advocating for deep courses in psychology, sociology, criminal justice, childhood development and trauma, cultural diversity, impacts of substance addictions, mental illness, and the like to be added to the high school curriculum?
Are we really going to let high school grads provide weekly counseling for abused children, in addition to the ones who “just” determine whether or not to remove children and where they should go? 
Or do we just not give a dump about kids?

[elegantlion]

2 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

A job that makes $15/hr - $17/hr shouldn't require a degree at all.   A B.S. shouldn't be what a HS diploma was.   

"Social Workers", Another job that shouldn't require a B.S.    People should be able to leave H.S. with an education.  

A great many of the jobs that require degrees don't truly use that degree.   Think about how much better financially people would be if they could start working earlier and also didn't have college loans because they didn't go to college.  

That ship as sailed a long time ago. My dad started a job that in 1970 required no degree (he had experience in the field). By 1985, that same job required a Bachelor's - he fortunately was grandfathered in. 

Those jobs that only require training and no degree also have, in my experience, little to no room for advancement. They may not pay a living wage to begin with. 

I worked as a veterinary assistant (not licenced tech - not sure they even hire non-techs in anymore). Started in the lates 1980s - couldn't get promoted or a liveable wage without a vet tech degree.  Oh

Insurance underwriting started in 1990s. I was an underwriting assistant, promoted to top of assitant level w/in 5 years. Couldn't get anymore promotions w/out a degree. '

There was a huge difference in those two jobs between those with degrees and those without. 

Oh, I just looked, there is a vet assistant job here that pays between $10 to $12/hour, no degree required. Another licensed tech job starts at $18 to $20. I live in a low cost of living area. You could live on your own at $18 an hour but not $12. 

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

Wow.
Are you advocating for deep courses in psychology, sociology, criminal justice, childhood development and trauma, cultural diversity, impacts of substance addictions, mental illness, and the like to be added to the high school curriculum?
Are we really going to let high school grads provide weekly counseling for abused children, in addition to the ones who “just” determine whether or not to remove children and where they should go? 
Or do we just not give a dump about kids?

QFT.

As a foster mom, I often WISH the people I deal with in the system had a better education and more accountability to keep their skills relevant and current. Especially the lawyers.

And yes, I also wish they were paid better with smaller caseloads. 

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Wow.
Are you advocating for deep courses in psychology, sociology, criminal justice, childhood development and trauma, cultural diversity, impacts of substance addictions, mental illness, and the like to be added to the high school curriculum?
Are we really going to let high school grads provide weekly counseling for abused children, in addition to the ones who “just” determine whether or not to remove children and where they should go? 
Or do we just not give a dump about kids?

Right. Can you even imagine the hell-fire and brimstone over an upper level college psychology course on sexual abuse, deviancy and mental illness?

My husband and I have taken those courses and we do not think they are appropriate for most high schoolers.

I am all for improving k12. But I’m really sick of hearing this false narrative that it’s an either or scenario of fixing K12 vs helping with higher education.  It just isn’t. Doing both helps both. And I flat out think colleges mandating pay for their graduates is a a bizarre and horrible idea. 

[Ting Tang]

37 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Right. Can you even imagine the hell-fire and brimstone over an upper level college psychology course on sexual abuse, deviancy and mental illness?

My husband and I have taken those courses and we do not think they are appropriate for most high schoolers.

I am all for improving k12. But I’m really sick of hearing this false narrative that it’s an either or scenario of fixing K12 vs helping with higher education.  It just isn’t. Doing both helps both. And I flat out think colleges mandating pay for their graduates is a a bizarre and horrible idea. 

I definitely would not have been very good at my job in social services simply having graduated from high school.  Sure, I could do the menial, robotic tasks by merely being trained. But if you really want to help someone navigate the system, it is helpful to understand it---including its flaws if you truly wanted to make a difference in someone's life.  I really enjoyed my work, but I started to grow resentful of the people who didn't want me to have a roof over my head or eat, at least not without a dozen roommates, lol.