Homeschoolers Embarrassing the Rest of Us

[Drama Llama]

9 hours ago, Ellie said:

I'm sorry...what did they "lie" about? what "crap" did they make up?

They annoyed me, too, so I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't know what they lied about and what stuff they made up.

Given that true disabilities that prevent safe mask wearing are rare, and almost always visible, it seems like the odds that a group of 15 people all having invisible disabilities that prevent mask wearing is very very low, and that it's more likely that the disabilities are made up.  Claiming to have a disability, and qualify for ADA protections, when you don't have one or don't have one that qualifies you for this ADA protection, is lying.  

[frogger]

15 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Well, yeah, we do. Because y'all pile on folks who disagree.

I know it is difficult to be the odd man out. I pretty much am all the time but what exactly do you propose?

If someone has already disagreed with a poster should that be it? I am no longer allowed to voice my opinion? 

[JustEm]

9 minutes ago, frogger said:

I know it is difficult to be the odd man out. I pretty much am all the time but what exactly do you propose?

If someone has already disagreed with a poster should that be it? I am no longer allowed to voice my opinion? 

I think there is a fine line. A few added comments or questions to clarify things seems acceptable but when tons of people are basically saying the same thing it does get old fast. That is when I try to just like the posts I agree with.

I don't think people intend to pile on though. They are just participating in the Convo and disagree with a specific post

[Lady Florida.]

17 hours ago, MercyA said:

 

ETA: I can't watch the video. Too much of it around me right now. 

I can't either. I see enough of that kind of person around here that I don't need to see them from other states. 

I did however, send a support email to the library and got a nice reply.

[Jean in Newcastle]

39 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Well, yeah, we do. Because y'all pile on folks who disagree.

Every single person is free to encourage and support the librarians who were put in a tough position or to send them more threats if that’s what they desire or to do absolutely nothing. But when someone says that doing so is  manipulating public health policy in a different state, then I absolutely am going to stand up and point out that this a false statement. It’s not just my opinion that it’s false. 

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Every single person is free to encourage and support the librarians who were put in a tough position or to send them more threats if that’s what they desire or to do absolutely nothing. But when someone says that doing so is  manipulating public health policy in a different state, then I absolutely am going to stand up and point out that this a false statement. It’s not just my opinion that it’s false. 

Amen!

[happi duck]

2 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I find the anti-masker/anti-covid precautions rhetoric on disability so confusing. 

As a parent of a child with a severe disability, the anti-disability rhetoric during the pandemic has been horrifying.  I've read that covid isn't scary because it only kills people "who are going to die anyway".  I've read that "healthy children" shouldn't have to sacrifice for "those children".  I've been told that I was not a good Christian because I tried to prevent or delay my child's death, because if I was a good Christian I'd be happy at the thought of him going to Heaven (that was here on the Hive).  I hear all the time that people with disabilities should "just stay home", so that other people can "get back to normal", because apparently a world where people wear masks is less "normal" than a world without my child and people like him participating.   It's perfectly clear that the message is that people with disabilities don't matter, and don't deserve a place in our community. 

But then people on the same side pretend to have disabilities that they don't have, and demand to participate.  

Well said.  Many (hugs)

[happi duck]

2 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

 

Dp

Edited January 28, 2022 by happi duck

[El...]

I'm in a few Facebook groups of librarians, even though I'm not one, because they have the new book reviews I want. This event is definitely on their radar, and is going to affect the way they experience their jobs. We're kidding ourselves if we think the poo-flinging that happened in another state hasn't touched minds in our own areas. 

I brought my library doughnuts this morning and have grabbed the chance to speak to several of the people who work there. They are catching flack on a regular basis right now, because they're between the public and whatever laws are in place. 

We who want good to triumph had better do what we can. Appreciation,  pastries, speaking up, bearing witness, voting, volunteering, whatever. 

[SKL]

I don't think the cops should have come for this purpose.  All that does is increase the chance for spreading Covid to and from the cops.

[SKL]

Where I live, many if not most establishments have dropped the mask requirements / vigilence.  About a month ago, I realized I'd forgotten my mask in the car, but there was a grocery store person standing by the door with hand sanitizer.  I asked if she had a mask I could use since I forgot mine, and she said the mask requirement posted on the door only applied to employees.  With Omicron ramping up, I don't see that changing; in fact, I now notice some employees not masking, which was not the case a month ago.

A group like that in the OP video would probably not get any lip service here.  They are trying to make a statement, but nobody here wants to hear it.

In fact, I think the outrage is actually rewarding people like this who need this kind of attention in order to feel important.  It might encourage other groups to do the same.  I would just ignore them.

[Miss Tick]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

I don't think the cops should have come for this purpose.  All that does is increase the chance for spreading Covid to and from the cops.

Did you see that for the second year in a row COVID was the leading cause of death among last enforcement?

Most of the mask mandates seem to be out in place without thought of how to enforce them. That has been true throughout and is unfortunate, although a common political problem.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, SusanC said:

Did you see that for the second year in a row COVID was the leading cause of death among last enforcement?

Most of the mask mandates seem to be out in place without thought of how to enforce them. That has been true throughout and is unfortunate, although a common political problem.

One lady in the OP video said a librarian refused to assist her if she wouldn't put on a mask.  That would be one way of "enforcing" a mask mandate in many places.

Our libraries have self-checkout.  You can do the whole library experience without ever being in the same room with a librarian.  So librarians could just go into another room and shut the door if they didn't feel safe for any reason.  People who want in-person service can put on a mask.

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

One lady in the OP video said a librarian refused to assist her if she wouldn't put on a mask.  That would be one way of "enforcing" a mask mandate in many places.

Our libraries have self-checkout.  You can do the whole library experience without ever being in the same room with a librarian.  So librarians could just go into another room and shut the door if they didn't feel safe for any reason.  People who want in-person service can put on a mask.

You want the librarians to break the law (which they didn’t set btw)?  Nope. 

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

You want the librarians to break the law (which they didn’t set btw)?  Nope. 

How is my suggestion about librarians breaking the law?  The librarians are wearing their masks I assume?

[KSera]

18 minutes ago, SKL said:

Where I live, many if not most establishments have dropped the mask requirements / vigilence.  About a month ago, I realized I'd forgotten my mask in the car, but there was a grocery store person standing by the door with hand sanitizer.  I asked if she had a mask I could use since I forgot mine, and she said the mask requirement posted on the door only applied to employees.  With Omicron ramping up, I don't see that changing; in fact, I now notice some employees not masking, which was not the case a month ago.

A group like that in the OP video would probably not get any lip service here.  They are trying to make a statement, but nobody here wants to hear it.

In fact, I think the outrage is actually rewarding people like this who need this kind of attention in order to feel important.  It might encourage other groups to do the same.  I would just ignore them.

What about all the other people who want to use the library and are following the law? They’re all supposed to leave rather than anyone enforce the law on those who won’t follow it? There’s not a chance I would stay in a library filled with a group of unmasked people. and I most certainly wouldn’t be able to take my too young to be vaccinated child in to pick out a book. I don’t see why this group should get to have their way and negatively impact everyone else.

[Frances]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

One lady in the OP video said a librarian refused to assist her if she wouldn't put on a mask.  That would be one way of "enforcing" a mask mandate in many places.

Our libraries have self-checkout.  You can do the whole library experience without ever being in the same room with a librarian.  So librarians could just go into another room and shut the door if they didn't feel safe for any reason.  People who want in-person service can put on a mask.

Librarians can’t just leave books, computers, money, etc. unattended by going into a room and closing a door if they feel unsafe due to people like those in the video. They didn’t just walk in and back out. They were hanging out and using the library. You must live in a very different place than me if you think it’s even a remote possibility that all librarians would just abandon their posts and hide, leaving the library unattended. Plus, there are likely other masked patrons in the library following the rules who they need to be there for also.

Our large library has security guards and they would likely be called first, before the police, if the people wouldn’t listen to the librarians. If the people wouldn’t listen to them and leave, then I’m guessing the police would be called.

Since likely most people here could share local news articles about mask protestors turning violent, either verbally or physically, I don’t think it is something that can just be ignored and will go away. Plus, they are now endangering the health of other library patrons, some of whom may not be able to quickly exit the building, especially during the winter. At least here, lots of people ride busses to get to the library. I wouldn’t want anyone, especially an elderly person, waiting out in the cold because of these rule breakers.

[Jean in Newcastle]

12 minutes ago, SKL said:

How is my suggestion about librarians breaking the law?  The librarians are wearing their masks I assume?

The librarians are the ones charged with maintaining the mask mandate in the library. A mandate that applies to everyone. They looked to police for help when their verbal requests were ignored. Unfortunately the police refused to do their job. 

[Drama Llama]

18 minutes ago, SKL said:

One lady in the OP video said a librarian refused to assist her if she wouldn't put on a mask.  That would be one way of "enforcing" a mask mandate in many places.

Our libraries have self-checkout.  You can do the whole library experience without ever being in the same room with a librarian.  So librarians could just go into another room and shut the door if they didn't feel safe for any reason.  People who want in-person service can put on a mask.

So if someone who clearly is willing to disregard the law comes into the children’s section the librarians should just walk out and leave the children unsupervised? 

[mom2scouts]

I rarely have anywhere to go these days, but I've ditched the mask in many settings. I'm vaccinated and had Covid (possibly twice) and don't think the masks we've been wearing are all that effective. HOWEVER, our library requires masks and, if I want to go to the library, I always take a mask and wear it properly the entire time I'm there. I also properly wear a mask in any business that has signs or employees asking me to mask. I definitely wore a mask when we had appointments at the Children's Hospital where we would be around vulnerable children and even the smallest risk reduction could be important. These homeschoolers are just being jerks. If they don't want to mask, they should have their meeting at one of their houses or at another location that doesn't care. I feel sorry for the librarians and workers who have to put up with this. I'm especially annoyed by people who want the freedom not to wear masks, but then berate and put down those who choose to wear masks. I also roll my eyes at terms like "fresh air" groups or "face friendly" locations. Just say "masks are required" or "masks not required".

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The librarians are the ones charged with maintaining the mask mandate in the library. A mandate that applies to everyone. They looked to police for help when their verbal requests were ignored. Unfortunately the police refused to do their job. 

 

And what exactly was the police's job?  Where does the law require arrests of people ignoring mask mandates?  I mean I hear about it happening rarely, but it seems a bit ridiculous to require cops to shut themselves up in enclosed spaces and close quarters with people considered too unsafe to enter a library.  It's also a huge risk that these attention seekers would do something to provoke the cops and then accuse them of bad behaviors.

[SKL]

9 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

So if someone who clearly is willing to disregard the law comes into the children’s section the librarians should just walk out and leave the children unsupervised? 

Children were unsupervised?  I thought libraries didn't allow young kids in without adults to supervise them.

[Frances]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

And what exactly was the police's job?  Where does the law require arrests of people ignoring mask mandates?  I mean I hear about it happening rarely, but it seems a bit ridiculous to require cops to shut themselves up in enclosed spaces and close quarters with people considered too unsafe to enter a library.  It's also a huge risk that these attention seekers would do something to provoke the cops and then accuse them of bad behaviors.

They could ask them to leave and escort them out, just like they are often called on to get people to disperse or leave certain situations. How is this any different? As for the covid risk, of course any front line worker is at risk when people don’t follow mask mandate. It’s not like police have some special dispensation to leave or not show up if masks aren’t being worn.

As for your last sentence, that pretty much describes the life of law enforcement. They are trained to diffuse and deal with difficult situations.

[SKL]

It is already unrealistic to go into a public place such as a library and expect not to risk exposure.  Little kids/babies don't have to mask anywhere, nor do certain others with certain conditions; and masks are only a partial barrier.  Nobody honestly goes to the library thinking "this is a Covid-free zone."  A librarian could have Covid and be breathing particles throughout the library all day long.  I'm sure it's happened plenty.

[Frances]

Just now, SKL said:

Children were unsupervised?  I thought libraries didn't allow young kids in without adults to supervise them.

Just because a library has age rules for unaccompanied children doesn’t mean librarians don’t keep an eye on older children and other patrons. Things still happen. It’s part of their job to be aware of what is going on and either deal with issues or all for assistance.

[Pawz4me]

Lots of things about this thread are baffling. The notion that LEOs shouldn't be asked to do their job is not least among them. Some of the arguments are so bordering on the absurd they're actually a bit funny in an eye rolling kind of way.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

Lots of things about this thread are baffling. The notion that LEOs shouldn't be asked to do their job is not least among them. Some of the arguments are so bordering on the absurd they're actually a bit funny in an eye rolling kind of way.

Agreed!

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

Lots of things about this thread are baffling. The notion that LEOs shouldn't be asked to do their job is not least among them. Some of the arguments are so bordering on the absurd they're actually a bit funny in an eye rolling kind of way.

That’s what happens when you are trying to defend the indefensible. You feel piled on and resort to specious arguments.

[Jean in Newcastle]

12 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

And what exactly was the police's job?  Where does the law require arrests of people ignoring mask mandates?  I mean I hear about it happening rarely, but it seems a bit ridiculous to require cops to shut themselves up in enclosed spaces and close quarters with people considered too unsafe to enter a library.  It's also a huge risk that these attention seekers would do something to provoke the cops and then accuse them of bad behaviors.

Police "tresspass" (ie escort people off the premises) all the time here for all sorts of things (not just Covid related things).  It's part of their job and what they should have done here.  If the people resisted the police then the police should respond appropriately by arresting them at that point, not before. 

[Terabith]

49 minutes ago, SusanC said:

Did you see that for the second year in a row COVID was the leading cause of death among last enforcement?

Most of the mask mandates seem to be out in place without thought of how to enforce them. That has been true throughout and is unfortunate, although a common political problem.

What gets me is that the law enforcement community has defined deaths from covid as deaths in the line of duty, which seems reasonable and fine to me, but then people use the line that "more police officers died in the line of duty in 2021 than ever before" as justification to increase militarization of the police and to imply that violent crime targeting law enforcement is out of control and can only be met by various tactics that disproportionately affect minority communities.  I'm seeing it all over facebook and hearing about it from people in real life.  

That worries me and pisses me off.  

[Pawz4me]

Just now, Frances said:

That’s what happens when you are trying to defend the indefensible. You feel piled on and resort to specious arguments.

Or when playing devil's advocate is your MO.

[Dmmetler]

There is a difference between realizing that no place is a COVID free zone and just giving up on precautions whatsoever. And if there is a mandate, it is not unrealistic for employees to expect that people who CAN mask-not those who want to mask, do so.  

 

 

[QueenCat]

27 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

So if someone who clearly is willing to disregard the law comes into the children’s section the librarians should just walk out and leave the children unsupervised? 

I've never seen a children's section where the parents aren't expected to supervise their children. The librarians are there to assist with finding books, etc, not babysit.

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Dmmetler said:

There is a difference between realizing that no place is a COVID free zone and just giving up on precautions whatsoever. And if there is a mandate, it is not unrealistic for employees to expect that people who CAN mask-not those who want to mask, do so.  

 

 

Exactly. For me, I wouldn’t actually bring my too young to be vaccinated kid in the library, masks or no. He hasn’t been in the library for two years, unfortunately. However, the only way for me to pick up my holds is going in the library, which is one of the only places that I’m going inside right now (and I actually let my last couple holes expire because I wasn’t willing to go during the peak of omicron). My groceries are all done curbside right now. If I were to show up to pick up my books and there was a group in there unmasked, I would be turning around and going home. Otherwise, I’m wearing my N95 and dashing in and out. 
 

And the idea that police officers shouldn’t be required to do their job because it might be risky for them is baffling at best 🤔.  Especially when it’s risky for those who have sworn a duty to protect, but apparently not for those regular citizens who are just trying to get their books.

[Miss Tick]

7 minutes ago, Terabith said:

justification to increase militarization of the police and to imply that violent crime targeting law enforcement is out of control and can only be met by various tactics that disproportionately affect minority communities. 

Ay. I had not seen that, although I'm not surprised. 😞

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

I've never seen a children's section where the parents aren't expected to supervise their children. The librarians are there to assist with finding books, etc, not babysit.

If someone is using the computers in the kids section to view porn, and refuses to move to the adult section, should the librarians do nothing and just allow them?  

Edited January 28, 2022 by KSera

[Miss Tick]

2 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

I've never seen a children's section where the parents aren't expected to supervise their children. The librarians are there to assist with finding books, etc, not babysit.

It happens at my library often (pre-COVID, anyway) Kids are old enough to be there unattended, but not necessarily old enough to share turns on the computer or not start calling each other names or not pull out a bag of potato chips and start eating. We've aged out of the kids section, but I'm sure this still goes on.

[mom2scouts]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

Exactly. For me, I wouldn’t actually bring my too young to be vaccinated kid in the library, masks or no. He hasn’t been in the library for two years, unfortunately. However, the only way for me to pick up my holds is going in the library, which is one of the only places that I’m going inside right now (and I actually let my last couple holes expire because I wasn’t willing to go during the peak of omicron). My groceries are all done curbside right now. If I were to show up to pick up my books and there was a group in there unmasked, I would be turning around and going home. Otherwise, I’m wearing my N95 and dashing in and out. 
 

And the idea that police officers shouldn’t be required to do their job because it might be risky for them is baffling at best 🤔.  Especially when it’s risky for those who have sworn a duty to protect, but apparently not for those regular citizens who are just trying to get their books.

My library has a drive up window that can be used to pick up books on hold! 

[Loowit]

8 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Police "tresspass" (ie escort people off the premises) all the time here for all sorts of things (not just Covid related things).  It's part of their job and what they should have done here.  If the people resisted the police then the police should respond appropriately by arresting them at that point, not before. 

I talked to my DH about this.  He is former law enforcement.  He said that the librarians would have to be the ones to trespass them, at least in our state.  The police can't do anything unless the business, in this case the library, is willing to order the no trespassing.  The mandates, while legally binding, are a civil not criminal matter as frustrating as that is.  Trespass is what the officers can enforce, but if the librarian won't or can't follow through with trespass then law enforcement's hands are tied.

[QueenCat]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

If someone is using the computers in the kids section to view porn, and refuses to move to the adult section, should the librarians do nothing and just allow them?  

I implied no such thing. I just meant that the kids are supposed to be supervised and the librarian's role is not babysitter. It doesn't mean that they don't need to do something when something is wrong. 

[denarii]

8 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

I've never seen a children's section where the parents aren't expected to supervise their children. The librarians are there to assist with finding books, etc, not babysit.

And when children are enrolled in a program and under the direct supervision of the librarian?

[QueenCat]

3 minutes ago, SusanC said:

It happens at my library often (pre-COVID, anyway) Kids are old enough to be there unattended, but not necessarily old enough to share turns on the computer or not start calling each other names or not pull out a bag of potato chips and start eating. We've aged out of the kids section, but I'm sure this still goes on.

I'm sure it does... but I've seen librarians call for parents of unaccompanied parents over the loud speaker. I know in the last place we lived, they couldn't be dropped off before middle school age. At that point, they are too old for the children's section. 

[QueenCat]

1 minute ago, denarii said:

And when children are enrolled in a program and under the direct supervision of the librarian?

I've never seen this. Parents were always required to stay when my kids attended these kinds of things.

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

And the idea that police officers shouldn’t be required to do their job because it might be risky for them is baffling at best 🤔.  Especially when it’s risky for those who have sworn a duty to protect, but apparently not for those regular citizens who are just trying to get their books.

OK well at least in some places, the mandate maker has specifically stated that cops are not to be arresting people over these things.  Which makes sense to me.

I also wouldn't want to be a cop arresting a bunch of moms with young children over nonviolent civil disobedience.  It can have a lasting detrimental impact on the community's relationship with police, in addition to the concerns I mentioned above.

I don't agree with people breaking mask rules in libraries, but I still don't think the cops should have done anything to them.  Or maximum, taken their names so they could be warned or fined or whatever that locality's laws require.

[KSera]

12 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

My library has a drive up window that can be used to pick up books on hold! 

That would be amazing!

9 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

I implied no such thing. I just meant that the kids are supposed to be supervised and the librarian's role is not babysitter. It doesn't mean that they don't need to do something when something is wrong. 

I’m meaning in the context that the children’s section was brought up, which was that librarians can’t just leave their posts and go in the back room somewhere in response to this. As you said, they need to enforce rules, particularly for the safety of other patrons. In this case, the mask mandate. 

[happi duck]

I don't think arrest was even a thought but they certainly could have said "put on masks or leave" instead of "this is like 'no shoes no shirt no service' and we don't enforce that".  The librarians needed their help!!

If I get a pushy solicitor at my door who won't leave couldn't I call the cops and expect them to say "move along"?

[SKL]

10 minutes ago, KSera said:

If someone is using the computers in the kids section to view porn, and refuses to move to the adult section, should the librarians do nothing and just allow them?  

They probably have various ways to handle that, e.g., block porn in the kids' section computers in the first place, turn off the individual's access to the internet, etc., but also including telling the individual to move.  The latter could be risky, and it should be the librarian's discretion whether or not to take that risk.  Other less-risky options would include gathering info from the individual's sign-on data and security cameras and letting the authorities deal with it in other ways.

Whether the cops should be called would depend on the laws regarding adults viewing porn around kids.  I'm not familiar with such laws, but hopefully librarians are trained on that in case such a situation arises.

I do think public places need policies for how employees can protect themselves when individuals break rules meant to protect others.  It is very common for employees to be told NOT to try to intervene when doing so could put them at greater risk.  For example, employees aren't supposed to try to stop a shoplifter or bank robber during the crime.  I can't believe librarians are expected to risk injury to themselves in order to interrupt a criime.

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, happi duck said:

instead of "this is like 'no shoes no shirt no service' and we don't enforce that".

And what are the chances that if this was a group of 16 topless women sitting in the children’s section that they would say they weren’t going to do anything about it?

[happi duck]

In my town if the librarians ask someone to leave and they won't the cops come and get them to leave.

Would the cops have refused to get a group of drunks to move along?  Or rowdy teenagers who wouldn't keep their volume down?

[KSera]

1 minute ago, happi duck said:

In my town if the librarians ask someone to leave and they won't the cops come and get them to leave.

Would the cops have refused to get a group of drunks to move along?  Or rowdy teenagers who wouldn't keep their volume down?

Happens here as well. Our libraries see a lot of usage by homeless people who use them as a warm place to be during the day. That’s mostly fine, but occasionally there’s someone who’s drunk or belligerent or otherwise inappropriate in the library, and I’ve seen cops called out to deal with that.