Why is everyone depressed?

[TravelingChris]

9 hours ago, Farrar said:

I think there's also been a rise in existential depression among a lot of people - young people I know feel that there's no point because climate change has doomed us all and the economy is so rigged that they don't think they'll ever get ahead. They don't plan to have families or kids. I think some of that is also exacerbating depression for some young folks.

Are you referring to Gen Z young people?  Because not only did my 2 depressive kids have very good changes in their lives ( both got married this year,  younger couple bought a housevw our help, my son and his new wife are overjoyed w their new son,) and in many other younger or even older millennials.  Now all three of my millennials talk like the world is ending at times it frequently, but reality of their current situations is are much better.  

 

7 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

BlsdMama, the thought of having to spend eternity with a whole bunch of people I don't particularly like - now, THAT would be enough to break my spirit. Knowing life ends gives each day a real weight.

I am a Christian but growing up and until I was around 43 or so, heaven was not necessarily an appealing place for me, generally because of how pastors described it.  One of my particular dislikes us sappy music, sappy stories, sappy behavior, sappiness in general. We were members of a UM church then but one that dh and I chose for it's friendliness after the nearest Presbyterian church ignored my youngest when she fell on the floor and sustained a fracture, never in quuered about her, and when we went to the church service, no one greated us.    

The UM pastor had a sermon one Sunday addressing the sappiness of heaven and rejecting it-- he talked about a great big party that was exciting, etc.  

But as a person whose health is do compromised that the FSA benefits lady was absolutely sure I could qualify for dependent care FSA, I am super aware of impending death.  Both of my parents died in their early -mid 60's as did dh's mother.  We are living like we are in borrowed time. 

 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

Are you referring to Gen Z young people?  Because not only did my 2 depressive kids have very good changes in their lives ( both got married this year,  younger couple bought a housevw our help, my son and his new wife are overjoyed w their new son,) and in many other younger or even older millennials.  Now all three of my millennials talk like the world is ending at times it frequently, but reality of their current situations is are much better.  

 

Yeah, Gen Z'ers. All the Millennials I know, older and younger end, have some doom and gloom talk, but mostly are going about living - though they are having fewer kids and getting married less, IME. But the Gen Z'ers I know - the late teens and early 20-somethings - they're bleak. Way bleaker than Millennials were in my experience at that age. Like, I was teaching Millennials and now I teach and have Gen Z'ers and it's... geez. It's a whole other level.

Maybe they'll mature and grow up and just settle into a relatively traditional life arc with their own generational and individual alterations to that - the way every generation does. But also, maybe they'll become climate refuges or watch the continued rise of fascism destroy the world. Like, they're not WRONG that things may keep going pear shaped.

[Dmmetler]

11 hours ago, Farrar said:

I think it's a huge host of factors. Of course depression has always been around. And I agree it's being talked about more.

But also, I think that anxiety has risen. The ways we address depression have changed - many for the better, but some for the worse. I think there's a lot of social alienation that is exacerbating it in particular ways for some people. I think there's also been a rise in existential depression among a lot of people - young people I know feel that there's no point because climate change has doomed us all and the economy is so rigged that they don't think they'll ever get ahead. They don't plan to have families or kids. I think some of that is also exacerbating depression for some young folks.

This is absolutely the case for my personal kid. Overall, life is better this year than last, due to being on a fully vaccinated, tested and masked campus, which has let the rest of life happen, and day to day life is pretty good,  but the future honestly looks  grim. This is especially strong for kids who have a personal interest and focus on biology, public health, environmental science, government, politics, history, etc-because they have the knowledge to really weigh what is happening, but don’t necessarily have the emotional maturity to deal with it yet. 
 

One thing L’s college really tries to do is to incorporate problem solving and change making into the curriculum-and I strongly suspect that a big part of is that as a LAC catering to smart young women, they realize the need their students have to have an internal locus of control. 

 

 

 

[Faith-manor]

37 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Yeah, Gen Z'ers. All the Millennials I know, older and younger end, have some doom and gloom talk, but mostly are going about living - though they are having fewer kids and getting married less, IME. But the Gen Z'ers I know - the late teens and early 20-somethings - they're bleak. Way bleaker than Millennials were in my experience at that age. Like, I was teaching Millennials and now I teach and have Gen Z'ers and it's... geez. It's a whole other level.

Maybe they'll mature and grow up and just settle into a relatively traditional life arc with their own generational and individual alterations to that - the way every generation does. But also, maybe they'll become climate refuges or watch the continued rise of fascism destroy the world. Like, they're not WRONG that things may keep going pear shaped.

Yes. My three sons are, depending on how the boundary years of these generations are drawn, super late millennial or early gen z. All I can say is yes, the rise of fascism in so many countries and the incredible instability in this nation definitely gives them a different perspective. My sons are not depressed, not remotely. But they are making very different choices than Gen X and early and middle millennials because of this perspective. They really want to end up living away from cities as much as possible, low carbon footprint, lots of privacy, and yet very politically active. They also do not see having children as a requirement to feel fulfilled or to be a good citizen of the world. I think that many people assume "depression" and label with a lot of negativity  this younger generation simply because they are going against the default lifestyle of previous generations, ie. marry, buy a house, have kids. Just because they do not believe they should bring children into this world, or prefer to not have the heavy weight of home ownership hanging over their heads so they can be more transient, doesn't mean they are depressed, emotionally bereft, etc. but I hear boomers and gen x'ers refer to their generation in these terms all the time. I will say that for a small subset of their friends who would like to pursue a traditional arc, but do not see it as an option due to student loan debt, housing and automobiles costs outpacing early career wages by unprecedented levels, ridiculous coat of health care, they may very well be suffering some situational depression. Those young adults really do not see a path to that dream.

As for anti-depressants, life sucks. It sucks to high heaven a lot of the time. We suffer trauma after trauma, and it changes our brain, it wears out our adrenal glands, it conditions our bodies to constantly put stresses on our hearts, shreds our arteries, you name it. If a pharmaceutical can mitigate that, then people should go for it. When you are working 60 hours a week and still have to keep up with housework, kids, elder care, etc. meaningful lifestyle change that might help or might not, is not happening for the most part. People need to get help where they can.

The pandemic has absolutely traumatized a LOT of people to a depth that getting good rest, exercising, and eating right isn't going to fix. I am pretty certain  that the survivors of the plague in Europe experienced widespread depression, anxiety, and panic attacks. These conditions are unfortunately common to the human experience.

 

[Scarlett]

Did anyone except @fraidycat watch the TED talk I posted?   
 

Anti depressants may help and some may literally have no other option in order to function…..but there are consequences to long term use of those drugs.  Have any of you that take antidepressants avoided weight gain?  I have a lot of friends who are on AD and everyone has had significant weight gain.  
 

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Re: antidepressants

I lost weight with initial use of Prozac.  After a few years, I did regain the weight (and then some). However, long term intermittent use of Fluoxetine was bad, very bad. Put me in Mayo Clinic for assessment bad. All of those side effects that are written in tiny ink on page 6-7 of the Fluoxetine pamphlet - those are what happened to me. I was initially tested for MS, ALS, Lyme, brain tumors...the tests, the expense, so much emotional trauma on me and my family. 

One day, I finally decided to heck with it all and discontinued my medications. Within days, I began feeling better. After about a month, I was able to walk without listing. At my Neuro check up, I passed all of the assessments; assessments I had failed two months prior. I inquired as to why no one, including the doctors at Mayo, questioned the efficacy of the Prozac. I mean, I can't be the only one who developed those symptoms; they are in the freaking pamphlet for goodness sake. Instead of looking into the antidepressant, every doctor went deep.  Not one doctor addressed my medication; which is really asinine considering Prozac was the only daily medication I was on. I had to make the choice to stop my meds. I had to tell the doctors my symptoms were waning. I had to prove to the Neuro I wouldn't fall over when I closed my eyes and that I could pass the psychometric tests.

I have been antidepressant free for two and a half years. I am terrified to try another one (Please don't tell me there are other types. I know that but I am not going there. I can't. Not yet.) At this point, I would rather live with my depression and try other ways to keep the symptoms at bay. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Did anyone except @fraidycat watch the TED talk I posted?   
 

Anti depressants may help and some may literally have no other option in order to function…..but there are consequences to long term use of those drugs.  Have any of you that take antidepressants avoided weight gain?  I have a lot of friends who are on AD and everyone has had significant weight gain.  
 

 

I think the issue is that some of us do not agree with his conclusions or see the side effects as acceptable in order to function properly. Just because you are against pharmaceutical use and found a Ted talk that supports your viewpoint, doesn't mean that others are going to jump on that bandwagon. This is not different from medicating for a variety of medical conditions. My mom's type 2 diabetes meds have side effects, that doesn't automatically equate to being wise to go without.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Faith-manor

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Did anyone except @fraidycat watch the TED talk I posted?   
 

Anti depressants may help and some may literally have no other option in order to function…..but there are consequences to long term use of those drugs.  Have any of you that take antidepressants avoided weight gain?  I have a lot of friends who are on AD and everyone has had significant weight 

Being fat is better than being dead.

[Scarlett]

16 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I think the issue is that some of us do not agree with his conclusions or see the side effects as acceptable in order to function properly. Just because you are against pharmaceutical use and found a Ted talk that supports hour viewpoint, doesn't mean that others are going to jump on that bandwagon. This is not different from medicating for a variety of medical conditions. My mom's type 2 diabetes meds have side effects, that doesn't automatically equate to being wise to go without.

Please do not put words in my mouth.  I did not say I am against pharmaceuticals and I did not go looking for a TED talk to ‘support my position.’ I found it thought provoking and I wanted to share it.  Also, please don’t speak for the others on this thread….if they watched it and disagree I would like to know….and since when are any of us silent when we disagree anyway.  
 

I also understand risk/benefit.  For instance I thought I would never take hormones to manage my menopause symptoms because my mom had breast cancer.  However I was not able to manage some symptoms and eventually took as small of a dose as I could for a limited time in order to manage my current life quality vs a possibility  of breast cancer.  
 

And still, I have the opinion that many many people are over medicated and not just AD….but that was the topic of this thread.  
 

 

 

[Scarlett]

14 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Being fat is better than being dead.

Well that is dramatic.  Yes of course if those are the two options I guess so.  

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Did anyone except @fraidycat watch the TED talk I posted?   
 

Anti depressants may help and some may literally have no other option in order to function…..but there are consequences to long term use of those drugs.  Have any of you that take antidepressants avoided weight gain?  I have a lot of friends who are on AD and everyone has had significant weight gain.  
 

 

I've been on Lexapro (or whatever the generic is) twice and it had no effect on my weight at all either time. Zero.

DS23 has been on generic Prozac for several years and I truly think it saved his life. He was very, very thin. Medically underweight level of thin. His anxiety makes him totally lose his appetite. So . . yes, he gained (very, very much needed) weight on it. I don't know if it was a side effect of the medication or due to it lowering his anxiety level enough that he could once again eat. He's been at a healthy weight since then, thank goodness. Not overweight by any means.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

For discussion's sake - Antidepressants are typically prescribed based on symptoms; not on any physical or chemical test done by a doctor or lab. How many people on antidepressants have neurotransmitter level testing? I know I never did. I'm not even certain the tests are reliable or available outside of a university or pharmaceutical lab. Therefore, how do we know for certain there is a neurotransmitter deficiency? For people with diabetes, it is easy to test blood sugar levels, treat accordingly, and test again to see if the medications have altered blood sugar levels. A diabetic is not sent home with insulin and told "take this much every day and we'll see you in three months to see how you feel". That would be malpractice. Yet, people with depression, or depression symptoms (whatever you want to call it) are prescribed meds every day with no way to determine efficacy with the exception of "how you feel". Yes, giving an AD is going to make you feel better. The AD is altering neurotransmitter levels but should we use these medications without being able to test for their need? Many people just see their GP, family practitioner, or nurse practitioner, get the prescription and go home to take their ADs with the hope that life will get better. I'm not certain this is the answer. Is every person with depression experiencing a neurotransmitter deficiency? What about the possibility of medicating people who don't need to be medicated? Are these same people being referred to a counselor or therapist? A support group? What other methods of treatment are being suggested?

 

Please don't rake me over the coals. Some of this is playing devil's advocate. Some of it is genuine inquiry.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Granny_Weatherwax

[regentrude]

@Granny_Weatherwax

No, not every depressed person has a chemical imbalance. (I know mine likely wasn't and have chosen not to medicate). I assume an AD wouldn't help for those.

If the AD works,  and improves the person's symptoms, why shouldn't they take it? Many folks tried lifestyle changes and therapy,  often for years, without success. When they finally tried meds, they felt better than ever before in their lives. 

We don't understand enough about the brain to know what exactly depression is. But if we have a chemical that can improve a person's quality of life, it should be tried to see if it works. Because diet and lifestyle and therapy often do nothing and people suffer.

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

For discussion's sake - Antidepressants are typically prescribed based on symptoms; not on any physical or chemical test done by a doctor or lab. How many people on antidepressants have neurotransmitter level testing? I know I never did. I'm not even certain the tests are reliable or available outside of a university or pharmaceutical lab. Therefore, how do we know for certain there is a neurotransmitter deficiency? For people with diabetes, it is easy to test blood sugar levels, treat accordingly, and test again to see if the medications have altered blood sugar levels. A diabetic is not sent home with insulin and told "take this much every day and we'll see you in three months to see how you feel". That would be malpractice. Yet, people with depression, or depression symptoms (whatever you want to call it) are prescribed meds every day with no way to determine efficacy with the exception of "how you feel". Yes, giving an AD is going to make you feel better. The AD is altering neurotransmitter levels but should we use these medications without being able to test for their need? Many people just see their GP, family practitioner, or nurse practitioner, get the prescription and go home to take their ADs with the hope that life will get better. I'm not certain this is the answer. Is every person with depression experiencing a neurotransmitter deficiency? What about the possibility of medicating people who don't need to be medicated? Are these same people being referred to a counselor or therapist? A support group? What other methods of treatment or being suggested?

 

Please don't rake me over the coals. Some of this is playing devil's advocate. Some of it is genuine inquiry.

Thank you.  This is the kind of thing I have been thinking about but you put it into words so much better.  
 

When I discovered my husband of 25 years was having multiple affairs I went to see my gynecologist for std testing.  I had lost 20 pounds in 30 days   (Down to 112 pounds at 5’6) He gave me a big hug and wrote me a RX for Cymbalta.  I took it for roughly 3 months and weaned myself off of it. I was of course…..depressed?  Maybe the better word was distraught.  But isn’t that a understandable reaction to that trauma?  I had another year of really really rough times mentally but I think in my opinion I just needed to work it out and feel the pain.  I needed my people to sit with me.  To listen to me.  To help me move through that time of my life.  And they did that.  Above and beyond.  
 

The TED talk discusses loneliness and isolation….I had neither of those.  I can easily see that someone in my situation without a support networks could have ended up on AD for the rest of her life.  All I am saying. Is that sometimes there might be another way.  

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 

Many folks tried lifestyle changes and therapy,  often for years, without success.

And I have known many who went straight for AD and never changed anything in their personal life.  
 

But no I don’t think people should suffer needlessly. 

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Thank you.  This is the kind of thing I have been thinking about but you put it into words so much better.  
 

When I discovered my husband of 25 years was having multiple affairs I went to see my gynecologist for std testing.  I had lost 20 pounds in 30 days   (Down to 112 pounds at 5’6) He gave me a big hug and wrote me a RX for Cymbalta.  I took it for roughly 3 months and weaned myself off of it. I was of course…..depressed?  Maybe the better word was distraught.  But isn’t that a understandable reaction to that trauma?  I had another year of really really rough times mentally but I think in my opinion I just needed to work it out and feel the pain.  I needed my people to sit with me.  To listen to me.  To help me move through that time of my life.  And they did that.  Above and beyond.  
 

The TED talk discusses loneliness and isolation….I had neither of those.  I can easily see that someone in my situation without a support networks could have ended up on AD for the rest of her life.  All I am saying. Is that sometimes there might be another way.  

I am happy this worked for you. I agree that situational depression is a completely different beast.

Otoh, there are people with support networks and loving families and good external circumstances who suffer from crippling depression. People to sit with them and listen doesn't cure their pain., it may only temporarily keep them from acting on a suicidal impulse. Depression is such an insidious disease. 

 

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

And I have known many who went straight for AD and never changed anything in their personal life. 

And if that worked for them, why not?

I have several loved ones for whom AD was tremendouslyhelpfu.l. They didn't need lifestyle changes.  They needed meds.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

And if that worked for them, why not?

I have several loved ones for whom AD was tremendouslyhelpfu.l. They didn't need lifestyle changes.  They needed meds.

People can do whatever they please.  I hope they are fully informed and I think many just blindly listen to their doctors and they believe in a pill being the magic solution.  I disagree……there are consequences and side affects to many of these drugs and I personally know several people and the weight gain alone is drastically threatening their physical health.  
 

We can see this differently obviously.  My point in posting my opposing views is for those struggling and being fed the current mainstream magic pill bill of goods.  

[KSera]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

If the AD works,  and improves the person's symptoms, why shouldn't they take it?

[deleted as my posts on this thread haven't seemed helpful and they have personal info about other people]

The biggest one for me is the concern that taking ADs has the potential to move depression from a temporary condition that one may get through to a chronic condition, due to the brain changes the AD causes. The nightmare that withdrawal can be is another that lends me caution.

Edited November 28, 2021 by KSera
removing details

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I was also thinking...there are many types of depression and, unfortunately, we use the term depression as an umbrella for all types. I'm not certain the language is helpful in any discussion of depression. People with diabetes differentiate between T1 and T2. We need similar/ better descriptors for depression. We also need tests to determine neurotransmitter levels - this would help with the differentiation.

@regentrude - I'm not saying ADs shouldn't be tried or prescribed. I'm just saying there needs to be something more; their use feels just a bit off, incomplete. I really would like to see regular use of neurotransmitter testing. We can test for vitamin levels, drug usage, hormone levels, etc. Let's develop a test for neurotransmitter levels. Once we have that, we can focus on targeted methods of treatment for those types of depression not specific to neurotransmitter levels. I am concerned that, as long as doctors are reaching for the prescription pad first, alternate methods of treatment or relief will not be considered. (Again, I am not saying ADs aren't useful and, I know, some people need them.)
 

[Scarlett]

19 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

I was also thinking...there are many types of depression and, unfortunately, we use the term depression as an umbrella for all types. I'm not certain the language is helpful in any discussion of depression. People with diabetes differentiate between T1 and T2. We need similar/ better descriptors for depression. We also need tests to determine neurotransmitter levels - this would help with the differentiation.

@regentrude - I'm not saying ADs shouldn't be tried or prescribed. I'm just saying there needs to be something more; their use feels just a bit off, incomplete. I really would like to see regular use of neurotransmitter testing. We can test for vitamin levels, drug usage, hormone levels, etc. Let's develop a test for neurotransmitter levels. Once we have that, we can focus on targeted methods of treatment for those types of depression not specific to neurotransmitter levels. I am concerned that, as long as doctors are reaching for the prescription pad first, alternate methods of treatment or relief will not be considered. (Again, I am not saying ADs aren't useful and, I know, some people need them.)
 

QFT 

[Scarlett]

32 minutes ago, KSera said:

I have two kids (young adults now) who take AD, which were begun while they were still under my care. That said, I have many reasons we tried other things first and would have avoided AD if at all possible. The biggest one to me is that there are many studies indicating that taking ADs has a tendency to move depression from a temporary condition that one may get through to a chronic condition, due to the brain changes the AD causes. It freaked me out a bit knowing that the brain of someone who takes lexapro is visibly altered after a very short time on the drug. But mostly it’s the chronic depression issue. I have seen that play out in an extended family member, and wanted to avoid that for my kids. But, for one the anxiety was too strong and needed relief and for the other the depression was. There came a point that treating the critical immediate issue meant accepting that the treatment might make the problem permanent. Which sucks. Given the family history, I think it is almost surely genetic for them. 
 

An article on the issue (I don’t love Psychology Today, but this summary seemed decent): https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mad-in-america/201106/now-antidepressant-induced-chronic-depression-has-name-tardive-dysphoria

That is a shocking article.  It just makes me furious that they have known about this for 40 years and yet continue on prescribing them Willy Nilly.  I am sorry your children seem to have the chronic lifelong type…..it sounds like you did your homework though.

And that is all I am suggesting.  We are responsible for our own health and we really cannot trust it to the doctors without question.  

 

[Pawz4me]

22 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

@regentrude - I'm not saying ADs shouldn't be tried or prescribed. I'm just saying there needs to be something more; their use feels just a bit off, incomplete. I really would like to see regular use of neurotransmitter testing. We can test for vitamin levels, drug usage, hormone levels, etc. Let's develop a test for neurotransmitter levels. Once we have that, we can focus on targeted methods of treatment for those types of depression not specific to neurotransmitter levels. I am concerned that, as long as doctors are reaching for the prescription pad first, alternate methods of treatment or relief will not be considered. (Again, I am not saying ADs aren't useful and, I know, some people need them.)
 

Also playing a little devil's advocate here --

Do you have the same beliefs when it comes to medicating other conditions and diseases?

I have RA. Various types of medications target the pathways that can cause that. When I was diagnosed my rheumy explained that because science can't yet do the genetic testing to determine which medication will work for which person that we have to take a "try it and see how the patient responds" approach. That's the best we can do right now, but of course the researchers are working on testing that can pinpoint which type of medication will work for which patient. Should I and other RA patients not be treated at all until we can know with testing which medication the patient will respond to? Just go ahead and allow disease progression?

The same thing is true for my DH's cancer. It's a historically difficult type to treat, but thankfully in the last ten years or so two particular classes of medication have come on the market. But there's no way of knowing (yet) which patient with his type of cancer will (hopefully) respond to one or the other (or both) of those classes of medication. So . . should cancer patients like him not get treatment until we can pinpoint which class of drugs they will hopefully respond to? Just go ahead and let the cancer progress w/o trying anything?

And of course lots and lots of other diseases and conditions have the same limitations WRT knowing which medicine will have a chance of working. But yet we attempt to try them. Why should mental health be any different?

As far as the comment earlier about Lexapro changing the brain -- when I was on it my brain certainly needed changing! Desperately needed it. My medical provider at the time told me if I would just take it for at least six months it would give my brain chemicals time to rebalance to where they needed to be. And he was absolutely correct about that. For me it was no different than a vitamin deficiency, not much different from anemia, etc. 

I do hope that those of you who oppose medication understand that some of us have been greatly helped by it, and some of us have family members whose lives we believe have been saved by it. And this thread is starting to feel like an attack. I have no qualm with those who have personally had a negative experience with ADs, or those who have close family members who've had a negative experience. No medicine works for or can be tolerated by everyone, so of course there will be people with negative experiences. But it does rub a bit to read comments from people who seem to have NO close experience and maybe, just maybe, don't really know what they're talking about.

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

As far as the comment earlier about Lexapro changing the brain -- when I was on it my brain certainly needed changing! Desperately needed it. My medical provider at the time told me if I would just take it for at least six months it would give my brain chemicals time to rebalance to where they needed to be. And he was absolutely correct about that. For me it was no different than a vitamin deficiency, not much different from anemia, etc. 

I do hope that those of you who oppose medication understand that some of us have been greatly helped by it, and some of us have family members whose lives we believe have been saved by it. And this thread is starting to feel like an attack. I have no qualm with those who have personally had a negative experience with ADs, or those who have close family members who've had a negative experience. No medicine works for or can be tolerated by everyone, so of course there will be people with negative experiences. But it does rub a bit to read comments from people who seem to have NO close experience and maybe, just maybe, don't really know what they're talking about.

[deleted once Pawz read, due to personal info about other people]

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by KSera

[Pawz4me]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

the decision to start an AD is not quite the same as starting many other medications is

Why? I don't see how they're any different. Many medications have the potential to cause serious or even life threatening side effects. There's absolutely nothing unique about ADs as far as that goes.

[TABmom]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Did anyone except @fraidycat watch the TED talk I posted?   
 

Anti depressants may help and some may literally have no other option in order to function…..but there are consequences to long term use of those drugs.  Have any of you that take antidepressants avoided weight gain?  I have a lot of friends who are on AD and everyone has had significant weight gain.  
 

 

I have taken many antidepressants without weight gain. I have taken 2 that did make me gain weight. When I realized that was what was causing it, I switched meds. One was realized right away, the other I gained 50 pounds before making the connection. It was a mess for sleep and it was NOT working - I thought the weight gain was because I was literally too tired to do anything. I just laid on the couch and had the kids bring me their school work for several months. 

My brother is on ADs. He eats/drinks tons of protein shakes to get/stay heavier. (Not in a dangerously underweight way, more in a bodybuilder way)

My son has taken Prozac or Zoloft for about 7 years- he is and always had been super skinny.

My dad takes a LOT of meds. He is bipolar. He is overweight, but not crazy so, and I wouldn’t blame it on the meds.

Several female members of my family have been on antianxiety meds and no one gained a significant amount of weight.

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Why? I don't see how they're any different. Many medications have the potential to cause serious or even life threatening side effects. There's absolutely nothing unique about ADs as far as that goes.

For several reasons. There are some medications that have some similar issues, but many don't. I'm talking about things other than even serious medication side effects that go away. The potential for AD medication itself to make the problem permanent is my biggest reason for saying that. Additionally, a lot of medications you can stop at any time and that's just fine. Psychiatric medications can be exceedingly difficult to get off of. Like opioids in that way.

None of this is to say that they aren't life saving and/or life changing for many people. I am very glad we have them, but I do hope for better options in the future.

Edited November 28, 2021 by KSera
removing details

[Pawz4me]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

For several reasons. There are some medications that have some similar issues, but many don't. I'm talking about things other than even serious medication side effects that go away. The potential for AD medication itself to make the problem permanent is my biggest reason for saying that. Additionally, a lot of medications you can stop at any time and that's just fine. Psychiatric medications can be exceedingly difficult to get off of. Like opioids in that way. I have a family member who has been weaning off a psychiatric medication over the past 10 months. She is almost off. She is left with tardive dyskinesia as a result of the medication and that may or may not go away. I'm not saying there are no other kinds of medications that have any issues like this, but medications that can have permanent effects on the brain do have different considerations than medications that have just temporary effects on the body.

None of this is to say that they aren't life saving and/or life changing for many people. I am very glad we have them, but I do hope for better options in the future.

Thank you for explaining. I promise I'm not being obtuse on purpose, but I still don't see the difference. The brain is an organ, not really much different from any of the other vital organs. And all sorts of medications can have side effects on various organs that are serious/life threatening/permanent. One class of medication that's used to treat DH's type of cancer can cause T1 diabetes, RA and other AI diseases. Some common medications can be notoriously difficult to wean off of (steroids and proton pump inhibitors for acid reflux are the ones I'm most familiar with, but I'm guessing there are others).

It's okay that we disagree on this, and I'm not posting to keep up or "win" this debate. I just really, truly don't get it. I do agree that hopefully there will be better options in the future, for mental health as well as all sorts of physical health issues.

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Thank you for explaining. I promise I'm not being obtuse on purpose, but I still don't see the difference. The brain is an organ, not really much different from any of the other vital organs. And all sorts of medications can have side effects on various organs that are serious/life threatening/permanent. One class of medication that's used to treat DH's type of cancer can cause T1 diabetes, RA and other AI diseases. Some common medications can be notoriously difficult to wean off of (steroids and proton pump inhibitors for acid reflux are the ones I'm most familiar with, but I'm guessing there are others).

It's okay that we disagree on this, and I'm not posting to keep up or "win" this debate. I just really, truly don't get it. I do agree that hopefully there will be better options in the future, for mental health as well as all sorts of physical health issues.

[deleted as my posts on this thread haven't seemed helpful and they have personal info about other people]

Edited November 28, 2021 by KSera

[Faith-manor]

11 minutes ago, KSera said:

I totally get other people will come to different conclusions. For me, it primarily comes down to my originally stated concern: I don’t want to turn my kids’ current mental health challenges into lifelong ones if they would otherwise be temporary. That’s huge to me. If the medications were pretty dependable to just work for their whole lives, it wouldn’t have been as hard a decision, but it’s so frequent for a medication to stop working and it can be very difficult to find another that does and then you’ve ended up with treatment resistant depression. I’ve seen it first hand be so miserable for my family member who has now been on more drugs over the last 4-5 decades than they can possibly remember and nothing really works anymore and I didn’t want to start them down that road unless necessary.

Can I ask how this is different from treatment revisiting hypertension, diabetes, pneumonia,.....? I am asking because people go on BP meds and over time they become ineffective. Should they have just not had meds to begin with and crossed their fingers that they would not have a stroke? Diabetes? My mom's type two meds have had to be switched three times in the last ten years because of becoming ineffective? Should she have just never gone on meds to begin with and hoped everything would turn up unicorns? It is a serious question. There is a logical inconsistency here. Once a brain becomes injured or diseased it is usually a life lonf, permanent condition and choosing not to treat it does not change that and make it a temporary condition.

 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Can I ask how this is different from treatment revisiting hypertension, diabetes, pneumonia,.....? I am asking because people go on BP meds and over time they become ineffective. Should they have just not had meds to begin with and crossed their fingers that they would not have a stroke? Diabetes? My mom's type two meds have had to be switched three times in the last ten years because of becoming ineffective? Should she have just never gone on meds to begin with and hoped everything would turn up unicorns? It is a serious question. There is a logical inconsistency here. Once a brain becomes injured or diseased it is usually a life lonf, permanent condition and choosing not to treat it does not change that and make it a temporary condition.

 

Well, what I’m saying is that actually there’s a good deal of research that shows the opposite when it comes to depression. That doesn’t happen with diabetes medication or hypertension medication (the latter of which I have been on for a long, long time, so I’m quite familiar with that)— they don’t cause a temporary condition to become chronic. That appears to be something that sometimes happens with anti depressants.  Some people’s depression always would have been chronic, but a lot of people go through an episode of clinical depression that then resolves. However, the synaptic changes that happen on anti-depressants can instead set people on a course for chronic depression. Clearly I’m not saying that means people shouldn’t be treated. I’ve said I helped my own two young people obtain ADs, and am glad for them, and sometimes you don’t have the luxury of trying anything else first, because the problem is too urgent. There is no logical inconsistency. This is an actual, real concern in the literature, and one I had to wrestle with. That’s all I’m sharing. I’m not asking anyone else to feel like they have to wrestle with it for themselves. There’s a whole lot we still don’t understand about mental illness. It’s a bugger of a disease. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by KSera

[Scarlett]

19 minutes ago, KSera said:

Well, what I’m saying is that actually there’s a good deal of research that shows the opposite when it comes to depression. That doesn’t happen with diabetes medication or hypertension medication (the latter of which I have been on for a long, long time, so I’m quite familiar with that)— they don’t cause a temporary condition to become chronic. That appears to be something that happens with anti depressants.  Some people’s depression always would have been chronic, but a lot of people go through an episode of clinical depression that then resolves. However, the synaptic changes that happen on anti-depressants can instead set people on a course for chronic depression. Clearly I’m not saying that means people shouldn’t be treated. I’ve said I helped my own two young people obtain ADs, and am glad for them, and sometimes you don’t have the luxury of trying anything else first, because the problem is too urgent. There is no logical inconsistency. This is an actual, real concern in the literature, and one I had to wrestle with. That’s all I’m sharing. I’m not asking anyone else to feel like they have to wrestle with it for themselves. There’s a whole lot we still don’t understand about mental illness. It’s a bugger of a disease. 

Thank you for sharing that. It backs up some of what I have been thinking and some if it is new to me and very scary. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

In case I wasn't clear - I am not opposed to medication. Just the use of ADs for every type of depression without the support of therapy, individual or group, or without a holistic approach. Not every depression is founded in a neurotransmitter deficiency nor should every depression be treated with an artificial elevation of neurotransmitter reactivity without investigating other possible causes. Depression isn't a one size fits all health issue and it cannot and should not be treated as such.

I am aware some people have tried everything and ADs are what give relief.  That is not the person to whom I am directing my concern. It is the average, every day person who goes to see a doctor and discusses depression and depression symptoms and leaves with a shiny new prescription and a "see you in three months" without any investigation into the underlying causes or tests to determine the type of depression. We simply need better educated physicians, nurses, and clinicians who will look deeper into their patient's entire medical and psycho-social history before giving them medication. (I feel the same way about the free use of antibiotics). 

This is much different IMO than a doctor trying a new method or medication regimen to treat RA or cancer or some other such disease. With depression (again, using that one word to describe a complicated illness is problematic) there are so many layers and possible causes and depression is often a symptom of other illnesses or secondary to a primary illness and not the primary illness itself and just throwing a prescription for an AD seems wrong and not doing justice to the patient. 

It's like a cough. You can take a cough suppressant and not cough but what you really need is an expectorant to thin and decrease the mucus which is causing the cough but the mucus is a reaction to the multiple scented candles you have burning in the house and which are irritating your bronchi. Yes, take the cough suppressant and the expectorant and feel better. But unless you get rid of the candles, you're going to be needing a lot of cough syrup. 

That's a simplistic analogy but it helps with my point. Taking an AD for ALL depressions without looking for other causes of the depression and working toward resolving those causes bothers me.

Sometimes what we need is a cow.

 

Edited: I am sorry, OP, none of my responses directly answers your initial question as to why so many people are depressed.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Granny_Weatherwax

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

In case I wasn't clear - I am not opposed to medication. Just the use of ADs for every type of depression without the support of therapy, individual or group, or without a holistic approach. Not every depression is founded in a neurotransmitter deficiency nor should every depression be treated with an artificial elevation of neurotransmitter reactivity without investigating other possible causes. Depression isn't a one size fits all health issue and it cannot and should not be treated as such.

I am aware some people have tried everything and ADs are what give relief.  That is not the person to whom I am directing my concern. It is the average, every day person who goes to see a doctor and discusses depression and depression symptoms and leaves with a shiny new prescription and a "see you in three months" without any investigation into the underlying causes or tests to determine the type of depression. We simply need better educated physicians, nurses, and clinicians who will look deeper into their patient's entire medical and psycho-social history before giving them medication. (I feel the same way about the free use of antibiotics). 

This is much different IMO than a doctor trying a new method or medication regimen to treat RA or cancer or some other such disease. With depression (again, using that one word to describe a complicated illness is problematic) there are so many layers and possible causes and depression is often a symptom of other illnesses or secondary to a primary illness and not the primary illness itself and just throwing a prescription for an AD seems wrong and not doing justice to the patient. 

It's like a cough. You can take a cough suppressant and not cough but what you really need is an expectorant to thin and decrease the mucus which is causing the cough but the mucus is a reaction to the multiple scented candles you have burning in the house and which are irritating your bronchi. Yes, take the cough suppressant and the expectorant and feel better. But unless you get rid of the candles, you're going to be needing a lot of cough syrup. 

That's a simplistic analogy but it helps with my point. Taking an AD for ALL depressions without looking for other causes of the depression and working toward resolving those causes bothers me.

Sometimes what we need is a cow.

 

Edited: I am sorry, OP, none of my responses directly answers your initial question as to why so many people are depressed.

Yep

[Terabith]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Well that is dramatic.  Yes of course if those are the two options I guess so.  

That was exactly the calculus I had to make.  Maybe it's dramatic, but it's 100% accurate.  Around 2000, I sat down with my husband and then subsequently told all of my doctors that they had six months to improve my life, but that if at the end of that six months I didn't feel any better, i was going to commit suicide.  It FINALLY motivated the psychiatrist to make some changes and find meds that worked better for me.  Not awesome at that point; I didn't really get stable till I got pregnant.  I have whatever the opposite of PPD is.  Pregnancy and nursing hormones rocked my world.  But yes, I did definitely gain weight, though I also had some thyroid issues around that time.  But it was 100% a choice of being fat or being dead. 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

That was exactly the calculus I had to make.  Maybe it's dramatic, but it's 100% accurate.  Around 2000, I sat down with my husband and then subsequently told all of my doctors that they had six months to improve my life, but that if at the end of that six months I didn't feel any better, i was going to commit suicide.  It FINALLY motivated the psychiatrist to make some changes and find meds that worked better for me.  Not awesome at that point; I didn't really get stable till I got pregnant.  I have whatever the opposite of PPD is.  Pregnancy and nursing hormones rocked my world.  But yes, I did definitely gain weight, though I also had some thyroid issues around that time.  But it was 100% a choice of being fat or being dead. 

I am glad you were able to get help. 
 

 

[Terabith]

I mean, it's crystal clear to me that my kids have lost the genetic lottery in terms of anxiety/ depression.  We talked about this extensively before I got pregnant, because my own mental health issues are so debilitating, but because meds work and I desperately wanted children, we went for it anyway.  I had tried therapy and various self help things for a long time before I ever tried meds, which I started at 21.  Actually, I started on bipolar meds/ mood stabilizers, but they didn't work.  Many, many years later, my shrink thinks that I'm not actually bipolar, that I have depression and severe anxiety/ PTSD, but that when the depression would lift a bit, I would be so terrified of it hitting again that I'd try to pack as much stuff in as fast as I could because I knew the other shoe would drop eventually.  My husband has pretty significant anxiety, though he was functional without meds.  He does hallucinate when sleep deprived.  Both of us have parents with serious anxiety.  My youngest kid was born with an incredibly anxious temperament.  A doctor we saw for an autism evaluation when she was four suggested an SSRI, and I really hesitated because of my at the time bipolar diagnosis and concerns about SSRIs triggering bipolar.  But, by the time she turned five, it was evident she was not functional.  She was so anxious she could not learn or develop or really even physically grow.  She also hallucinates when she is scared.  We started her on celexa just after her fifth birthday, and it was amazing and life changing and a 100% positive experience.  She has gained weight (percentiles), but that didn't happen until puberty and also corresponded with a major drop in her physical activity.  

Oldest kid didn't develop a need for meds until age 15, at which point it was obvious to me that meds were needed, but pediatrician wanted to try vitamin D and therapy and lifestyle stuff first, which sounded reasonable, except for the fact that none of those things worked, and by the time meds WERE started, a year later, they were in a much, much worse situation, with far more serious depression, and it was a lot more difficult to "fix" the issue.  

[DreamerGirl]

Thanks

Edited November 28, 2021 by DreamerGirl

[SKL]

I do agree that at least some practitioners jump straight to meds.  Others don't.

We've had a doctor label my kid's file as ___ (commonly diagnosed childhood mental disorder) before she even met my kid.  I have no doubt that meds would be next if we continued down that path.

In another situation, we were strongly advised to try therapy first.  We are still in the middle of that story, so I'll stop here.

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, regentrude said:

@Granny_Weatherwax

No, not every depressed person has a chemical imbalance. (I know mine likely wasn't and have chosen not to medicate). I assume an AD wouldn't help for those.

If the AD works,  and improves the person's symptoms, why shouldn't they take it? Many folks tried lifestyle changes and therapy,  often for years, without success. When they finally tried meds, they felt better than ever before in their lives. 

We don't understand enough about the brain to know what exactly depression is. But if we have a chemical that can improve a person's quality of life, it should be tried to see if it works. Because diet and lifestyle and therapy often do nothing and people suffer.

Lol, we also don't know how AD's work. It's all a big mystery. We can't even say 'chemical imbalance'. 

AD's are cheap. That's why they are prescribed. They individualize the problem of depression for low cost. 

Transforming society is hard and costly. Even transforming the individual through long term psychodynamic therapy is hard and costly. 

So AD's are what we have. Even though we don't know why they ( sometimes) help. 

I take an AD for anxiety. It helps my anxiety 100%. I'm open to the idea it's a placebo, because of the way it came to be prescribed. 

AD's do nothing for my depression. Zilch. I get to slog through that and chronic suicidity unmedicated, yay for me, I guess? 

But it still pisses me off when ppl go on an anti-med direction - they do help some people. And frankly, they are one of the only forms of help on offer. 

 

[Scarlett]

I hope no one thinks I am questioning their treatment, their choices.  Their circumstances.  
 

Of course there will be situations where nothing will work except meds.

The point of the TED talk was that something is up with our society and how we fix people. There are multiple causes for depression and yet most doctors do not attempt to get to the bottom of the causes. 

 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Lol, we also don't know how AD's work. It's all a big mystery. We can't even say 'chemical imbalance'. 

AD's are cheap. That's why they are prescribed. They individualize the problem of depression for low cost. 

Transforming society is hard and costly. Even transforming the individual through long term psychodynamic therapy is hard and costly. 

So AD's are what we have. Even though we don't know why they ( sometimes) help. 

I take an AD for anxiety. It helps my anxiety 100%. I'm open to the idea it's a placebo, because of the way it came to be prescribed. 

AD's do nothing for my depression. Zilch. I get to slog through that and chronic suicidity unmedicated, yay for me, I guess? 

But it still pisses me off when ppl go on an anti-med direction - they do help some people. And frankly, they are one of the only forms of help on offer. 

 

Why would other peoples choices piss you off.  I am not pissed at anyone’s choice on this thread.  And I am happy people have options to make them feel better.  

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I hope no one thinks I am questioning their treatment, their choices.  Their circumstances.  
 

Of course there will be situations where nothing will work except meds.

The point of the TED talk was that something is up with our society and how we fix people. There are multiple causes for depression and yet most doctors do not attempt to get to the bottom of the causes. 

 

 

A lot of causes are societal. 

Doctors can't fix society. They have a limited bag of tools. Thank God they can offer something, because I don't know where else one could go to get help. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Why would other peoples choices piss you off.  I am not pissed at anyone’s choice on this thread.  And I am happy people have options to make them feel better.  

Because being anti AD, pro bootstrapping is just one way lack of understanding/acceptance that mental illnesses are real plays out. 

 

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Because being anti AD, pro bootstrapping is just one way lack of understanding/acceptance that mental illnesses are real plays out. 

 

I am not anti AD.  And I definitely believe mental illness exists and I believe that spectrum is quite large and deserves a more individual approach. 

[regentrude]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

The point of the TED talk was that something is up with our society and how we fix people. There are multiple causes for depression and yet most doctors do not attempt to get to the bottom of the causes. 

Do we even understand the possible causes?
I don't mean to be snarky, I am seriously asking. In general, we have no clue why people are depressed (many external circumstances might cause grief or stress, but that isn't the same as depression). So what's the doctor supposed to do? Trained therapists have no clue why many of their patients are depressed. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by regentrude

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Do we even understand the possible causes?
I don't mean to be snarky, I am seriously asking. In general, we have no clue why people are depressed (many external circumstances might cause grief, but that isn't the same as depression). So what's the doctor supposed to do? Trained therapists have no clue why many of their patients are depressed. 

Various experts do not play well with each other.  

[BlsdMama]

18 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

No actually, I am in a much better state mentally since I left Christianity. My sister was able go off her antidepressants when she deconverted. My nephew and his wife both reported that deconverting was like having an anvil removed from their chests. I am glad that your faith elevates you! Really, I am.  Others of us were very badly damaged by Christian faith. 

We all have different experiences with it. But contrary to what Christians believe about non-christians, we don't need the carrot of intangible paradise in an alternate dimension to motivate us to make this world better or to live life with purpose and joy.

I respect what you're saying Faith but I have to wonder - damaged by Christian faith or damaged by Christians who preached a doctrine and attempted to control based on their own agenda? And obviously I speak from my own experience and understanding so I just don't know what I don't know.

I don't believe someone needs an "intangible carrot" to find purpose or joy.  But I also hesitate to say that you can fully understand my own perspective - so imagine for a moment the best your life is EVER going to be is at this moment and it will continuously go downhill... pain, disease, disability.  Most ALS patients live in deep anxiety and depression.  Many choose assisted suicide.  The purpose most of us have? With no useful arms, hands, legs, or ability to speak?  And most people in this world, in their 40s and beyond, truly still believe their best years, or at least quality years are in front of them yet, to be filled with both happiness and sadness, to have purpose, and to find fulfillment.  And what I'm saying is that when one comes to the end of themselves and understands, fully understands, that will absolutely not be the case? Well, perspective changes a rather lot.  BTDT and experiencing it in a way I couldn't have grasped five years ago, or perhaps not even two when my hands still worked perfectly, I still walked, I never grew hoarse.......

[Faith-manor]

59 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

I respect what you're saying Faith but I have to wonder - damaged by Christian faith or damaged by Christians who preached a doctrine and attempted to control based on their own agenda? And obviously I speak from my own experience and understanding so I just don't know what I don't know.

I don't believe someone needs an "intangible carrot" to find purpose or joy.  But I also hesitate to say that you can fully understand my own perspective - so imagine for a moment the best your life is EVER going to be is at this moment and it will continuously go downhill... pain, disease, disability.  Most ALS patients live in deep anxiety and depression.  Many choose assisted suicide.  The purpose most of us have? With no useful arms, hands, legs, or ability to speak?  And most people in this world, in their 40s and beyond, truly still believe their best years, or at least quality years are in front of them yet, to be filled with both happiness and sadness, to have purpose, and to find fulfillment.  And what I'm saying is that when one comes to the end of themselves and understands, fully understands, that will absolutely not be the case? Well, perspective changes a rather lot.  BTDT and experiencing it in a way I couldn't have grasped five years ago, or perhaps not even two when my hands still worked perfectly, I still walked, I never grew hoarse.......

I am sorry for what you are going through, and I am most certainly glad you find purpose in faith. That's great for you. Please at least accept that for me, christianity is hell on earth and provides NO comfort, joy, peace, or assistance. It is really offensive when Christians assume certain things about non-christians. I totally accept what your faith does for you. Likewise, you should accept what I say to be true for me. And yes, I can understand your perspective. Don't think for one single second that I was not a Christian at any point in my life...that old "No True Scotsman myth". You would be profoundly wrong. My deconversion has been a complicated journey from a person of profound faith to one in abject despair because of that faith. I 100% understand what you believe and why it informs your perspective. That is wonderful for you. It does not hold true for me.

Best wishes and peace to you and your family.

[Katy]

I always wondered why mental illness isn't more recognized as normal. I remember in some class in nursing school there was a conversation about the rates of mental illness in young people being slightly higher than the rates of identifying as something other than heterosexual.  It's totally normal to be gay or bi or asexual so why isn't it totally normal to go through a mental health crisis? It's more common, often situational, and often short term.  It needs to be normalized.  It's highly linked with inflammation in the brain and situations where one feels responsible for something outside your control. It's common in grief and in situations where hormones change rapidly (a new kind of birth control pill, a chronic illness, a period of grief, pregnancy, giving birth, menopause, or anything else that is stressful).

We need to teach people the signs, the situations where it's common so they can help check on friends, and how to get help without stigma.  As well as the relevance of both medicines AND cognitive behavioral therapy.