Seeking experiences with multiple Covid infections

[PronghornD]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

That's not what the article is saying. It's saying that the spike protein inhibits the mechanisms that allow for us to make antibodies to new pathogens. This is done by DNA recombination and what the spike protein is inhibiting is the knitting together of the DNA molecules during this process.  The article is not saying that the vaccine damages your DNA or that it has a widespread effect on DNA repair mechanisms in general.  

Since the spike protein is only made for a little while, the vaccine  seems like it would just cause a temporary inhibition of the immune system rather than a lasting effect.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, wathe said:

 

The probability of accidentally cannulating a blood vessel at the deltoid injection site is vanishingly small:

I hear you, but I go back to the problem that if you're in that vanishingly small percent and have it happen, it is pretty awful. John Campbell has been interviewing people on his youtube stories and the stories are HORRIFIC. People with long term injury to their heart, spine, etc. and it was apparent immediately (from their description of their symptoms during injection) that the vaccine had in fact been injected errantly into a blood vessel.

So why wouldn't we do something that is free, simple, and standard in other countries that could PREVENT this occasional situation? Wasn't a dab more pain in the arm (which for pity's sake can't be much relative to the pain of the shot properly injected and making your arm sore the following 2-3 days) worth it to protect that slim sliver of people who get dramatic harm when, for whatever reason, it does end up in a blood vessel? To me, somebody's math is not calculating it right to say those people and that risk doesn't matter. I get that it works out for 99.9999% of the people. You're just screwed if you're in that teeny tiny fraction of a percent where it doesn't.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

47 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

Since the spike protein is only made for a little while, the vaccine  seems like it would just cause a temporary inhibition of the immune system rather than a lasting effect.

Wasn't the discussion months ago about them finding spike proteins in all kinds of places where they hadn't been injected? I don't think we can make the assumption that anything is doing what they thought. 

[Halftime Hope]

10 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I went and read the actual study (here: https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm ).  It’s fairly compelling and definitely concerning, especially since the dna damage appeared to be caused both by the vaccines and by Covid itself.

This is just one of a number of very concerning/depressing things about both the vaxxes (at least the current ones) as well as the disease.  Finding out that the vaxx caused changes in immune markers? Oy!!  

I used to think that I wanted to be aggressively treated with repurposed drugs if I got ill.  Now, those repurposed drugs are also useful for treating prophylactically at the time of vaccination and for treating if/when vaccine AE or injuries happen. 

 

 

[Halftime Hope]

9 hours ago, TCB said:

The spike protein in the mRNA vaccines is in the pre-attachment state though. It was found that by attaching 2 proteins, the spike protein is locked in its pre-attachment phase and not able to bind with receptors. This is not an area of expertise for me, but there is a good Q&A type podcast from MedCram that discusses it. It seems that the spike protein in the mRNA vaccines may not behave in the same way as that on the SARS-CoV2 virus.

It's been months and months, TCB, and I don't have the wherewithal to go looking for it, but there was research showing that the supposed-to-be-locked Spike didn't all stay locked in real life.  Similar to "the LNPs and spike production is supposed to stay primarily in the deltoid."  

[Halftime Hope]

3 hours ago, EKS said:

That's not what the article is saying. It's saying that the spike protein inhibits the mechanisms that allow for us to make antibodies to new pathogens. This is done by DNA recombination and what the spike protein is inhibiting is the knitting together of the DNA molecules during this process.  The article is not saying that the vaccine damages your DNA or that it has a widespread effect on DNA repair mechanisms in general.  

Please go back and re-read the journal article. 

1) Like you said, it is clearly a problem if our immune systems are not able to "make antibodies to new pathogens." (Your wording.)  That would mean the spike is impairing immune function, and ascertaining/confirming that was the point of the whole study. 

2) But there is more, "NHEJ repair and homologous recombination (HR) repair are two major DNA repair pathways that not only continuously monitor and ensure genome integrity but are also vital for adaptive immune cell functions..."   And this, "Next, we sought to determine whether the spike protein directly contributes to genomic instability by inhibiting DSB [double-strand break] repair. We monitored the levels of DSBs using comet assays. Following different DNA damage treatments, such as γ–irradiation, doxorubicin treatment, and H₂O₂ treatment, there is less repair in the presence of the spike protein (Figure 2F,G). Together, these data demonstrate that the spike protein directly affects DNA repair in the nucleus." 

This study demonstrates that DNA repair mechanisms are affected (Point 2), not just (Point 1) "inhibit[ion of] the production of functional B and T cells, leading to immunodeficiency."

Edited November 18, 2021 by Halftime Hope

[Halftime Hope]

15 hours ago, skimomma said:

For those who have had multiple infections or are close to those that have, can you share whether subsequent infections were more, less, or the same when it came to symptoms, length of symptoms, and lingering effects?  Since it is becoming more and more likely that we are not going to get to the point of controlling this virus via vaccinations and other mitigation efforts (thanks, politics), I am less and less willing to severely limit my family's life indefinitely.  While I have managed to avoid infection, mostly by avoiding many things I enjoy, I am sitting in a county that is on fire (22% positivity, 500/100,000 infection rate, 50% vaccination rate for 18+, very little masking) and cannot see any sort of light at the end of the tunnel.  I have been boosted and will continue to take basic safety measures, but am coming to terms with the likelihood that I will eventually be infected and possibly multiple times if this goes on forever and ever.  Are we seeing trends yet on what happens to people who have had it multiple times?  Specifically people who are getting vaccines as available that are generally in good health?

I only personally know of one fully vaccinated person who got a second infection (first was pre-vaccine) and they were asymptomatic.  But one anecdotal data point is meaningless. 

Skimomma, I know three families of middle-aged people who have gotten post-fully-vaxxed COVID.  I know one family that had alpha in spring of 2020 and Delta in Summer 2021.  Their exposure to Delta was an unfortunately massive, high viral load exposure.  The wife was quite sick at home, nothing like the first time though. She was not pulling out of it at home (prolonged misery), so she took two doses of human ivm and turned the corner. Her husband nearly went to the hospital, wouldn't take anything, and frankly, he fit ALL the co-morbidities, so I thought he would die.  I think his first go-round in spring 2020 was what gave him enough immunity to weather Delta. Son of a gun has no long-COVID.  Very lucky man. 

[wathe]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

I hear you, but I go back to the problem that if you're in that vanishingly small percent and have it happen, it is pretty awful. John Campbell has been interviewing people on his youtube stories and the stories are HORRIFIC. People with long term injury to their heart, spine, etc. and it was apparent immediately (from their description of their symptoms during injection) that the vaccine had in fact been injected errantly into a blood vessel.

So why wouldn't we do something that is free, simple, and standard in other countries that could PREVENT this occasional situation? Wasn't a dab more pain in the arm (which for pity's sake can't be much relative to the pain of the shot properly injected and making your arm sore the following 2-3 days) worth it to protect that slim sliver of people who get dramatic harm when, for whatever reason, it does end up in a blood vessel? To me, somebody's math is not calculating it right to say those people and that risk doesn't matter. I get that it works out for 99.9999% of the people. You're just screwed if you're in that teeny tiny fraction of a percent where it doesn't.

 

I'd never heard of John Campbell before.  Against my better judgement, I had a look at his inadvertent IV injection video.  I'm not impressed.  He talks about a study in which 13 mice were purposely given massive doses of Pfizer mRNA covid vaccine IV (0.25mcg/g body weight -  orders of magnitude greater than equivalent human dose.   A 0.25mcg/g dose for a 70kg human would be 17,500 mcg.   The normal Pfizer dose for humans is 30 mcg) and about half of those mice had cardiac injury consistent with myocarditis/pericarditis. None of the IM dosed mice had findings. Interestingly, they don't state whether they aspirated during IM injections or not as part of their study protocol.  

This study proves that massive doses of mRNA  vaccine purposely administered IV cause myocarditis in mice.  And that IM administration of massive doses in a small number of mice didn't  (though the study was significantly underpowered to conclude that IM admin doesn't cause myocarditis too, at a lower rate than IV) That's it.

The study authors speculate on whether accidental IV administration with deltoid injection is possible.

 He extrapolates this to support a rant against not aspirating for human IM deltoid injection of vaccine, and rants that we aren't following manufacturers guidelines by not doing this (That's false.  The Pfizer monograph doesn't say anything about aspirating.  I've read it).  That's a very big leap.  He's fear-mongering.

The study tells us absolutely nothing about the risk of myocarditis in humans from accidental IV administration of human doses of covid vaccine, and absolutely nothing about whether or not aspiration decreases the risk of accidental cannulation of blood vessels during IM deltoid injection.

In which countries is aspiration for IM vaccination at the deltoid site standard? To the best of my knowledge, it's not in USA, Canada or UK.

 

 

 

 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

4 hours ago, wathe said:

I'd never heard of John Campbell before.  Against my better judgement, I had a look at his inadvertent IV injection video.  I'm not impressed.  He talks about a study in which 13 mice were purposely given massive doses of Pfizer mRNA covid vaccine IV (0.25mcg/g body weight -  orders of magnitude greater than equivalent human dose.   A 0.25mcg/g dose for a 70kg human would be 17,500 mcg.   The normal Pfizer dose for humans is 30 mcg) and about half of those mice had cardiac injury consistent with myocarditis/pericarditis. None of the IM dosed mice had findings. Interestingly, they don't state whether they aspirated during IM injections or not as part of their study protocol.  

This study proves that massive doses of mRNA  vaccine purposely administered IV cause myocarditis in mice.  And that IM administration of massive doses in a small number of mice didn't  (though the study was significantly underpowered to conclude that IM admin doesn't cause myocarditis too, at a lower rate than IV) That's it.

The study authors speculate on whether accidental IV administration with deltoid injection is possible.

 He extrapolates this to support a rant against not aspirating for human IM deltoid injection of vaccine, and rants that we aren't following manufacturers guidelines by not doing this (That's false.  The Pfizer monograph doesn't say anything about aspirating.  I've read it).  That's a very big leap.  He's fear-mongering.

The study tells us absolutely nothing about the risk of myocarditis in humans from accidental IV administration of human doses of covid vaccine, and absolutely nothing about whether or not aspiration decreases the risk of accidental cannulation of blood vessels during IM deltoid injection.

In which countries is aspiration for IM vaccination at the deltoid site standard? To the best of my knowledge, it's not in USA, Canada or UK.

 

 

 

 

I was never taught to aspirate when doing a deltoid IM vaccination.  I actually went and pulled out the paramedic and nursing textbooks last night to see if I had just forgotten and it’s not mentioned. I did Google “IM injection techniques” and some websites mentioned it and some didn’t. 

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, wathe said:

The study tells us absolutely

He's been doing interviews of people. 

I get that you're coming from your want studies perspective, but when the individual on the street wants to know that something is safe enough for risk tolerance then explanations of the rare things that ARE HAPPENING matter. And he's at least giving rational explanations for some of the freakest things that do (rarely) happen. We had a girl in our state permanently paralyzed, wheelchair bound forever, from the pfizer vaccine. When it's down to the level of one, what is true for 100,000 doesn't matter, only what happened to you and why. And he's not saying it's a common mechanism, which is the whole point.

 

 

[Ausmumof3]

I know you’re looking for anecdotes not data and I’m following with interest as well but there’s one study here that shows similar or increased severity with reinfections. I think the study has some issues though.

https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/article/S1198-743X(21)00422-5/fulltext

 

I don’t know anyone in person still who has had the virus but online reports seem to suggest some people have mild and some people have worse second infections.  

[MEmama]

FWIW— I don’t pretend to understand much of the mechanics of the vaccine, but I appreciate the insight and advice from all the *healthcare workers* here on the board. You all are beyond generous with your knowledge, and incredibly kind in your efforts to explain complicated, complex information for the rest of us.

Truly, thank you. 💕

[TCB]

8 hours ago, Halftime Hope said:

It's been months and months, TCB, and I don't have the wherewithal to go looking for it, but there was research showing that the supposed-to-be-locked Spike didn't all stay locked in real life.  Similar to "the LNPs and spike production is supposed to stay primarily in the deltoid."  

It’s hard to keep up with all the doom and gloom prophecies about the mRNA vaccines. And yet, a study of 11 million people found the Non Covid Death rate among the vaccinated to be lower than the unvaccinated, not higher. And the State of Texas published figures showing a much lower rate of Covid infections and deaths in the vaccinated population. I find these figures encouraging. I find MedCram and TWIV to be good sources of calm, measured information. 

[TCB]

13 hours ago, matrips said:

Yes, I read more articles and agree that the protein is designed with that intention. Does that apply to both the mRNA style and the J and J?  Or just the mRNA?

  Also, those articles also made the point the vaccine safety is based on it going in the deltoid muscle, and that if it enters the bloodstream, there could be harm.  So wondering how the person injecting the shot down ensures it’s definitely going in the right place and if mistakes have been made?  I don’t know.  I’ve seen people debate the pros and cons of aspirating first.  I’m not a medical person by any means. I just find it all interesting as they learn more.

I don’t know all that much about the virus vector vaccines like J&J or AZ as I have not read too much about them. I was taught to aspirate when doing IM injections, but I don’t think it is part of the protocol now. It is certainly an interesting theory and should be considered carefully, but I think it is irresponsible of people like Dr Campbell to be talking about it in terms of a proven, certain theory.

[PronghornD]

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Wasn't the discussion months ago about them finding spike proteins in all kinds of places where they hadn't been injected? I don't think we can make the assumption that anything is doing what they thought. 

I don't remember the discussion, but I am not surprised that the spike protein is in various places. The vaccine enables the body to produce it. My question is the time course -- I would be surprised if that protein is present for a long time, thus able to inhibit the immune system long term.

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, wathe said:

I disagree.  The guidelines recommending against aspiration during IM immunization at the deltoid site exist for a reason.

The purpose of aspiration is to identify accidental cannulation of a blood vessel.

The probability of accidentally cannulating a blood vessel at the deltoid injection site is vanishingly small:

There aren't any large enough vessels at the deltoid injection site.  That's why we use it.

The angle of injection is 90 degrees to the direction of travel of any (incredibly unlikely) rogue vessels large enough to cannulate.  Any one who's put in an IV knows that cannulation at a 90 degree angle is pretty much impossible.  I don't think that there is any evidence in the literature to suggest that it's ever happened with deltoid IM immunization.

Smaller blood vessels sometimes rupture with vaccination.  But then they bleed/leak into the muscle, they do not suck the vaccine IV (blood vessels are pressurized.  Vaccine cannot passively travel against a pressure gradient).  This is not the same thing as cannulating a vessel.

Aspiration causes harm: increased tissue trauma and increased pain.

This is not a government conspiracy.  It's best-evidence practice: evidence of harm plus no evidence of benefit = do not aspirate.

 

It's almost as if the science makes sense....

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

He's been doing interviews of people. 

I get that you're coming from your want studies perspective, but when the individual on the street wants to know that something is safe enough for risk tolerance then explanations of the rare things that ARE HAPPENING matter. And he's at least giving rational explanations for some of the freakest things that do (rarely) happen. 

No, as explained above, in detail, his explanation is NOT rational, at all. There is no way what he is describing is even possible given the laws of physics, what we know of biology, etc. It is NOT possible to accidentally inject anything into the vein when doing an IM injection into the muscle in that region. It just isn't. 

And someone going on youtube to claim something happened is not evidence of anything..I could make a video today claiming that orange juice caused me to go blind. Wouldn't make it true. And certainly wouldn't make any explanation of the cause true. 

[EKS]

10 hours ago, PronghornD said:

Since the spike protein is only made for a little while, the vaccine  seems like it would just cause a temporary inhibition of the immune system rather than a lasting effect.

Exactly!

[TCB]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

It's almost as if the science makes sense....

No, as explained above, in detail, his explanation is NOT rational, at all. There is no way what he is describing is even possible given the laws of physics, what we know of biology, etc. It is NOT possible to accidentally inject anything into the vein when doing an IM injection into the muscle in that region. It just isn't. 

I think it is possible to inadvertently hit a vein in the deltoid as some people’s anatomy is different than expected, but my understanding is that it is unusual to do so.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

15 minutes ago, TCB said:

I think it is possible to inadvertently hit a vein in the deltoid as some people’s anatomy is different than expected, but my understanding is that it is unusual to do so.

I’ve been trying to think about this.  
If someone had a rogue vein in their deltoid, I could potentially poke it on the top with the needle—but then it’s probable the needle would go right through it, not just stay in the vein.  And IM injections go deep, they aren’t subQ for a reason—we have to go a little deeper to get into the muscle. Would someone have a random vein in the muscle tissue? 
I think it’s far more likely that the long term vaccine side effects, which do happen, even if rare, are more of a result of a immune system mistake.  That is, the immune system has overreacted or something else there has gone haywire for reasons other than a vaccine somehow getting into the bloodstream.

I don’t feel great today and my brain is fuzzy, so I could be completely off.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[TCB]

21 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’ve been trying to think about this.  
If someone had a rogue vein in their deltoid, I could potentially poke it on the top with the needle—but then it’s probable the needle would go right through it, not just stay in the vein.  And IM injections go deep, they aren’t subQ for a reason—we have to go a little deeper to get into the muscle. Would someone have a random vein in the muscle tissue? 
I think it’s far more likely that the long term vaccine side effects, which do happen, even if rare, are more of a result of a immune system mistake.  That is, the immune system has overreacted or something else there has gone haywire for reasons other than a vaccine somehow getting into the bloodstream.

I don’t feel great today and my brain is fuzzy, so I could be completely off.

I think it is more likely to be that too but I must admit I haven’t been keeping that close an eye on that angle, so I don’t really consider myself that well informed about it.

[PeterPan]

41 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

That is, the immune system has overreacted or something else there has gone haywire for reasons other than a vaccine somehow getting into the bloodstream.

The pattern seems to be people getting an immediate taste and other sensations indicating it hit the bloodstream and no sore arm . But I think like you’re saying it would be super rare. 

[wathe]

I'm a taster.  I tasted all three of my Pfizer shots.  That means that some component of the vaccine was absorbed into my bloodstream.  Which is true of every IM injection ever.  It does not mean that a vessel was cannulated or that the dose was administered IV.

Roughly 75% of people get a sore arm.  That means 25% don't.  Lack of a sore arm does not indicate IV administration.

 

Changing professional practices across a profession is never simple or cheap.  It's expensive and complicated, no matter how simple the practice change in question seems to be.

Guidelines are written by panels of experts who carefully weigh risks and benefits of interventions, including the risks of applying seemingly benign interventions at scale across populations.  Decisions are made based on best evidence.  Not based on a guy on YouTube, who even I can see is fear-mongering: misapplying a tiny mouse study that purposely injected almost 1000-fold of human equivalent dose IV, and scary anecdotes.

This isn't hubris.  Guidelines and standards do change as the best available evidence evolves.  Western medicine doesn't pretend to already know everything.  But changes do require actual evidence to support them.  

Every single medical intervention confers a degree of risk.  Vaccines are no exception.  Some people will be harmed by their covid vaccine.  Of that there is no doubt.  The data are abundantly clear, though, that the benefit of vaccines far, far, far outweighs the risk.  

OP, I'm sorry I took your thread so far off topic.  Misinformation is grinding HCW into dust.  The suggestion upthread that I'm a "pusher"  who doesn't know my job pushed my buttons.  I will stop now.

[wathe]

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’ve been trying to think about this.  
If someone had a rogue vein in their deltoid, I could potentially poke it on the top with the needle—but then it’s probable the needle would go right through it, not just stay in the vein.  And IM injections go deep, they aren’t subQ for a reason—we have to go a little deeper to get into the muscle. Would someone have a random vein in the muscle tissue? 
I think it’s far more likely that the long term vaccine side effects, which do happen, even if rare, are more of a result of a immune system mistake.  That is, the immune system has overreacted or something else there has gone haywire for reasons other than a vaccine somehow getting into the bloodstream.

I don’t feel great today and my brain is fuzzy, so I could be completely off.

I said I'd stop, but apparently I'm in a mood, so just one more thing...

This is scientifically answerable:

Q: do IM injections at the deltoid accidentally get administered IV?  Inject a large inert molecule (that won't get absorbed into the blood stream) IM into the deltoid without aspiration, followed by a blood draw from a distant site (e.g. the contralateral arm).  Or do the IM injection with a radioopaque solution under fluoro (X-ray it in real time to see if the blood vessels light up).  Or some other objective marker of IV administration.

Q: does aspiration prevent accidental IV administration.  Do the same study as above with an aspiration arm.

Q: does IV covid vaccine at human doses cause harm?  Purposely inject mRNA covid vaccine at normal doses IV, with an IM control. Probably wouldn't get ethics approval for this one.

Q: does aspiration change outcomes for IM administration of mRNA covid vaccine at the deltoid site?  Probably the easiest, but would need huge numbers to be adequately powered.  Have one study  arm that doesn't aspirate, and one study arm that does (5-10 sec as per old guideline - and truly, in practice, even those who aspirate never aspirate that long IME).  Track outcomes, including harm caused by aspiration (pain at injection site).  

ETA @Mrs Tiggywinkle - I am not trying to suggest that you thought otherwise.  I'm jumping off your post rather than replying to it.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by wathe

[skimomma]

1 hour ago, wathe said:

 

OP, I'm sorry I took your thread so far off topic.  Misinformation is grinding HCW into dust.  The suggestion upthread that I'm a "pusher"  who doesn't know my job pushed my buttons.  I will stop now.

No need to apologize!  I sympathize with what you are up against.  Even if a fraction of the millions of rabbit trail conspiracies have merit, the fact that we are in a PANDEMIC and must do the best we can as quickly as possible to mitigate the greatest harm has to prevail.  I am so done receiving YouTube videos of quacks trying to whip up fear in what is already a pretty scary situation.  The quacks and the people latching on are doing unforgivable harm and I realize HCWs really cannot just sit back and let them rip.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

1 hour ago, wathe said:

I said I'd stop, but apparently I'm in a mood, so just one more thing...

This is scientifically answerable:

Q: do IM injections at the deltoid accidentally get administered IV?  Inject a large inert molecule (that won't get absorbed into the blood stream) IM into the deltoid without aspiration, followed by a blood draw from a distant site (e.g. the contralateral arm).  Or do the IM injection with a radioopaque solution under fluoro (X-ray it in real time to see if the blood vessels light up).  Or some other objective marker of IV administration.

Q: does aspiration prevent accidental IV administration.  Do the same study as above with an aspiration arm.

Q: does IV covid vaccine at human doses cause harm?  Purposely inject mRNA covid vaccine at normal doses IV, with an IM control. Probably wouldn't get ethics approval for this one.

Q: does aspiration change outcomes for IM administration of mRNA covid vaccine at the deltoid site?  Probably the easiest, but would need huge numbers to be adequately powered.  Have one study  arm that doesn't aspirate, and one study arm that does (5-10 sec as per old guideline - and truly, in practice, even those who aspirate never aspirate that long IME).  Track outcomes, including harm caused by aspiration (pain at injection site).  

ETA @Mrs Tiggywinkle - I am not trying to suggest that you thought otherwise.  I'm jumping off your post rather than replying to it.

 

I didn’t take it that way 🙂. I was trying to figure out how it was possible for IM injections to be somehow administered intravenously and if that’s a frequent or even semi rare occurance.  I really don’t think it is.

[ktgrok]

5 hours ago, TCB said:

I think it is possible to inadvertently hit a vein in the deltoid as some people’s anatomy is different than expected, but my understanding is that it is unusual to do so.

You can hit a vein, but as Wathe explained, hitting a vein is NOT the same as injecting it IV. Not even close. Blood vessels are under pressure, and bleed. That pressure will mean blood is coming out of the vein, not that the vaccine is going into the vein. To inject it IV you have to insert a needle at the proper angle (not the same angle used for IM injections) very carefully - even when TRYING to do this it is very easy to go right through the vein. To think that hitting a blood vessel (happened to me at one injection, my dd at another) is at all equivalent to an IV injection, much less one 1,000 times higher, is ludicrous and totally bogus. 

[Toocrazy!!]

I too truly appreciate all the information HCW and others share here. I do not have any medical background so it is impossible for me to really know. And sometimes I do get caught up in flashy headlines😀 thanks for bringing it back to the science and explaining these things so clearly.  You all are truly helping me and my family make smart decisions through all of this. 

[TCB]

44 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

You can hit a vein, but as Wathe explained, hitting a vein is NOT the same as injecting it IV. Not even close. Blood vessels are under pressure, and bleed. That pressure will mean blood is coming out of the vein, not that the vaccine is going into the vein. To inject it IV you have to insert a needle at the proper angle (not the same angle used for IM injections) very carefully - even when TRYING to do this it is very easy to go right through the vein. To think that hitting a blood vessel (happened to me at one injection, my dd at another) is at all equivalent to an IV injection, much less one 1,000 times higher, is ludicrous and totally bogus. 

Well I’m a nurse who gives IM injections and, although it is extremely unlikely, I do think it is possible. I was with someone giving an IM one time, not the deltoid, and when they drew back they got a good blood return, so withdrew the needle and tried again. Whether that is a possible mechanism for the side effects, I have no idea, but I would not classify the possibility, of injecting some of the fluid into the vein, as ludicrous or bogus. I do think it is irresponsible of people to claim that that is definitely what is causing the problem.

[wathe]

13 minutes ago, TCB said:

Well I’m a nurse who gives IM injections and, although it is extremely unlikely, I do think it is possible. I was with someone giving an IM one time, not the deltoid, and when they drew back they got a good blood return, so withdrew the needle and tried again. Whether that is a possible mechanism for the side effects, I have no idea, but I would not classify the possibility, of injecting some of the fluid into the vein, as ludicrous or bogus. I do think it is irresponsible of people to claim that that is definitely what is causing the problem.

I think this is the key.  Gluteal site does have big vessels and accidental IV is absolutely plausible, and aspiration during IM injection is recommended at that site - and administration of vaccine to the gluteal site is specifically recommended against for that reason.  

[TCB]

8 minutes ago, wathe said:

I think this is the key.  Gluteal site does have big vessels and accidental IV is absolutely plausible, and aspiration during IM injection is recommended at that site - and administration of vaccine to the gluteal site is specifically recommended against for that reason.  

I guess my point is that I don’t think there is enough evidence for anyone to say injecting into the vein inadvertently is definitely what is causing the problem, and I don’t think there is enough evidence to say it definitely isn’t. I don’t think absolutes are helpful in situations where the evidence isn’t completely clear, and I feel those stances are causing some of the problems we’re all having.

Other than that  I have nothing to add to the subject.

[goldberry]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

He's been doing interviews of people. 

I get that you're coming from your want studies perspective, but when the individual on the street wants to know that something is safe enough for risk tolerance then explanations of the rare things that ARE HAPPENING matter. 

 

I understand that argument, I really do.  But what confuses me is that the people making that argument about vaccines don't seem to do a similar risk assessment with actually getting Covid. For example, the risk of blood clots from a vaccine is much much MUCH lower than the risk of blood clots from actually getting Covid.  Or taking birth control pills for that matter.  The risk of an atypical extremely adverse vaccine reaction (such as becoming paralyzed) is again MUCH LESS than the risk of dying or having long term organ damage from actually getting Covid.  Here's a child who was paralyzed after having Covid.  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/covid-likely-led-rare-disorder-left-8-year-old-girl-n1279336  I get that if you are one affected, the odds don't matter.  But we still use odds to make every decision we ever make.  There is no 100% certainty.  Not with a Covid infection either.

Edited November 18, 2021 by goldberry

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, wathe said:

that I'm a "pusher"  who doesn't know my job pushed my buttons.

We have lower trained people with a 16 hour certificate or less giving vax. That to me is a pusher, someone who knows almost nothing and just pushes when told.

[thewellerman]

1 hour ago, goldberry said:

I understand that argument, I really do.  But what confuses me is that the people making that argument about vaccines don't seem to do a similar risk assessment with actually getting Covid. For example, the risk of blood clots from a vaccine is much much MUCH lower than the risk of blood clots from actually getting Covid.  Or taking birth control pills for that matter.  The risk of an atypical extremely adverse vaccine reaction (such as becoming paralyzed) is again MUCH LESS than the risk of dying or having long term organ damage from actually getting Covid.  Here's a child who was paralyzed after having Covid.  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/covid-likely-led-rare-disorder-left-8-year-old-girl-n1279336  I get that if you are one affected, the odds don't matter.  But we still use odds to make every decision we ever make.  There is no 100% certainty.  Not with a Covid infection either.

I've been refraining from posting the entire pandemic, but I'd really like to talk about vaccine reactions because I've learned so much reading on this board, and because I had a doozy of a reaction.  

The reason why I'm not comparing risking another vaccine with the risk of covid is because I do have some control over my covid exposure.  I understand not everyone does, but my exposure is very, very low.  So, I'm not super excited to purposefully accept another vaccine when I still have near daily headaches, tinnitus, and other issues 4 months out from 1 dose.  

[thewellerman]

And, I'd like to hear more about the dna shearing bit.  Does that seem to be a temporary problem? 

[ktgrok]

22 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

We have lower trained people with a 16 hour certificate or less giving vax. That to me is a pusher, someone who knows almost nothing and just pushes when told.

How much training do you think it takes to give a simple IM injection?

[melmichigan]

28 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

How much training do you think it takes to give a simple IM injection?

In nursing school IM injections were one clinical. So one afternoon on dummies, then test the next day on each other. That doesn’t even add up to 16 hours, although granted the anatomy was covered elsewhere.

[whitestavern]

59 minutes ago, thewellerman said:

I've been refraining from posting the entire pandemic, but I'd really like to talk about vaccine reactions because I've learned so much reading on this board, and because I had a doozy of a reaction.  

The reason why I'm not comparing risking another vaccine with the risk of covid is because I do have some control over my covid exposure.  I understand not everyone does, but my exposure is very, very low.  So, I'm not super excited to purposefully accept another vaccine when I still have near daily headaches, tinnitus, and other issues 4 months out from 1 dose.  

Thank you for saying this. I was about to post the same thing, though as an unvaxxed person. Comparing vaxx reaction to a bad Covid case is not fair. One can do a lot to avoid Covid exposure, as I have done for two years (as has my immediate family (though one is vaxxed). We avoid indoor crowds (though I’ve been working in person for 1.5 years), do everything we can to boost our immune system, live healthy lives, test before spending time with family, and wear N95 masks all the time. Of course this isn’t 100% foolproof, but then again neither is the vaccine. I know more people with breakthrough cases than I do that had Covid before vaccines were available. Our state is consistently reporting about 30% of new cases and hospitalizations are all vaxxed people. It’s not simply a vaxx vs Covid argument. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by whitestavern

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, melmichigan said:

In nursing school IM injections were one clinical. So one afternoon on dummies, then test the next day on each other. That doesn’t even add up to 16 hours, although granted the anatomy was covered elsewhere.

Just for some context, I'll explain that my ds and I got our shots at different pharmacies because they were different brands. Where I went, it appeared to be a pharmacist, and she took time, was measured, etc. At the pharmacy where I took my ds, it was horrifying how quickly the shot was administered and how little post concern there was. I couldn't tell whether she was just so *experienced* that she could be that fast or whether there are precautions not taken, corners cut. So as a consumer who wants safety and to know the shot is being administered properly, I won't be going back to that pharmacy.

All this was *before* the stuff about aspiration started hitting the fan on youtube. And I go back to my point, that I'm not deciding risk for a population. I'm concerned about my one dc, not how often it works out for most people. If in that one instance a poorly trained overworked staffer is cramming out jabs in between her cashier work (which was for real what was happening) and my ds *does* have some kind of severe reaction that is attributable to misplacement, I'm not happy. Stats won't matter at that point.

So I don't see where, as a consumer, I'm wrong for wanting best practice and safety or something that at least registers to a rational person as safe. And that super fast cashier crams a bunch and then goes back to her register wasn't doing it for me. And if more highly trained people at least know *how* to aspirate and can give a *rationale* or can give the patient *choice* I'm in favor of that. 

Btw, I think I got my numbers wrong. I think it was 12 hours. It's a community health worker certificate our state flagship university offers. I was doing career testing for myself (if you want a laugh) and that popped up as recommended. I think they cover a broad variety of basic skills, so as you say it might even be less on the injections. But my understanding was this certificate program allows you to be one of those people giving injections for community clinic settings. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, whitestavern said:

Comparing vaxx reaction to a bad Covid case is not fair.

I love that we can't say the vax made us sick for months on end in a debilitating fashion without being told it's not an issue when it's not as severe as someone else's. 

 

[ktgrok]

19 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Just for some context, I'll explain that my ds and I got our shots at different pharmacies because they were different brands. Where I went, it appeared to be a pharmacist, and she took time, was measured, etc. At the pharmacy where I took my ds, it was horrifying how quickly the shot was administered and how little post concern there was. I couldn't tell whether she was just so *experienced* that she could be that fast or whether there are precautions not taken, corners cut. So as a consumer who wants safety and to know the shot is being administered properly, I won't be going back to that pharmacy.

 

I'm wondering what you mean by post concern? I mean, they told me to not leave the store iwth the kids for about 10 minutes, in case of reaction, but really...what else is there?

As for precautions and cutting corners...it's an injection. Swab with alcohol, give shot, stick on bandaid. Those are the only real steps there are - (and I am pretty sure neither the alcohol or bandaid are truly vital).

[wathe]

6 hours ago, TCB said:

I guess my point is that I don’t think there is enough evidence for anyone to say injecting into the vein inadvertently is definitely what is causing the problem, and I don’t think there is enough evidence to say it definitely isn’t. I don’t think absolutes are helpful in situations where the evidence isn’t completely clear, and I feel those stances are causing some of the problems we’re all having.

Other than that  I have nothing to add to the subject.

Yes, you are right, absolutes aren't helpful. That's a very important point.

We can't with absolute certainty know which of the above is true.  

But we can, with confidence I think,  judge which is most probable, based on best evidence, and behave accordingly.  When we use absolute terms (definitely is the cause, definitely isn't the cause, possible, impossible) we risk falsely implying that either absolute is equally probable/improbable.  Which they aren't.

We base guidelines and professional practice on risk-benefit calculations based on probabilities.  Not on absolutes (possible/impossible no matter how improbable). You and I both know that  one never says never in medicine!  The probability of accidental cannulation of a vessel during IM administration of vaccine at the deltoid site is very, very, very small and the practice guidelines regarding no aspiration for immunization at the deltoid site are sensible.  

[KSera]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

I love that we can't say the vax made us sick for months on end in a debilitating fashion without being told it's not an issue when it's not as severe as someone else's. 

 

Who is preventing anyone from saying that? I haven’t seen anyone deny that a very small percentage of people have bad or even terrible reactions to the vaccine. Saying that the risk of that is far higher with Covid isn’t telling anyone they can’t say that they had a vaccine reaction or that it’s not an issue. Some people are able to structure their life such that they can avoid interaction and could get away without the vaccine being important, and that’s totally their prerogative. The majority of people can’t. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 hours ago, whitestavern said:

Thank you for saying this. I was about to post the same thing, though as an unvaxxed person. Comparing vaxx reaction to a bad Covid case is not fair. One can do a lot to avoid Covid exposure, as I have done for two years (as has my immediate family (though one is vaxxed). We avoid indoor crowds (though I’ve been working in person for 1.5 years), do everything we can to boost our immune system, live healthy lives, test before spending time with family, and wear N95 masks all the time. Of course this isn’t 100% foolproof, but then again neither is the vaccine. I know more people with breakthrough cases than I do that had Covid before vaccines were available. Our state is consistently reporting about 30% of new cases and hospitalizations are all vaxxed people. It’s not simply a vaxx vs Covid argument. 

I think it's reasonable to keep one's probability of getting COVID in mind, but I think at this point, it's going to be almost impossible to avoid COVID.

Just because you roll a die a few times and don't get a 6 doesn't mean you'll never get a 6. The things you'll need to do to avoid COVID forever will probably be fairly drastic, now that the rest of the world is moving on. 

Also, the presence of breakthrough cases says very little about the vaccine's ability to prevent you from getting very sick or dying. It's now clear that vaccines wane in terms of their ability to prevent infection, but we don't yet see much waning in their ability to prevent hospitalizations or death. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[TCB]

58 minutes ago, wathe said:

Yes, you are right, absolutes aren't helpful. That's a very important point.

We can't with absolute certainty know which of the above is true.  

But we can, with confidence I think,  judge which is most probable, based on best evidence, and behave accordingly.  When we use absolute terms (definitely is the cause, definitely isn't the cause, possible, impossible) we risk falsely implying that either absolute is equally probable/improbable.  Which they aren't.

We base guidelines and professional practice on risk-benefit calculations based on probabilities.  Not on absolutes (possible/impossible no matter how improbable). You and I both know that  one never says never in medicine!  The probability of accidental cannulation of a vessel during IM administration of vaccine at the deltoid site is very, very, very small and the practice guidelines regarding no aspiration for immunization at the deltoid site are sensible.  

I agree, they aren’t equally likely to be probable. I do think it’s not impossible to  inadvertently cannulate a vessel, but not very likely to happen at all, and, even if it did, may very well not be the cause, especially since young men are more likely to experience myocarditis. It would have to mean that there is something anatomically that makes it more likely to hit young men’s veins, which seems very unlikely.  I don’t think you were talking in absolutes, your post was more of a jumping off point for my thoughts.

The longer this pandemic goes on, the more it seems that we still have so much to learn. I’m tired of hearing about crazy theories which are presented as sure things, before there is evidence to support them, but on the other hand, those of us searching for evidence based truths should acknowledge that there are things we just don’t know yet. It feels like whack a mole. As soon as the evidence is produced to answer one unlikely theory, another one comes right along. 

[Pawz4me]

8 hours ago, ktgrok said:

 

As for precautions and cutting corners...it's an injection. Swab with alcohol, give shot, stick on bandaid. Those are the only real steps there are - (and I am pretty sure neither the alcohol or bandaid are truly vital).

This.

When I had a dog years ago who needed regular injections the vet taught me in about ten minutes. That included drawing the medicine into the syringe and injecting it. I felt reasonably well educated within that time frame. I can't imagine needing multiple hours, but . . it was a dog, so we did skip the swabbing with an alcohol pad and applying a Band Aid parts. Perhaps those could fill up hours and hours of instruction time?

When I needed to start a weekly injection my rheumy said "You can watch the video (about 2 minutes long, IIRC) on the manufacturer's website, and if you need more help you can see my nurse." I watched the video and felt well educated. I certainly didn't need any more instruction from the nurse, and I'd be more than a bit doubtful of the intelligence of anyone who did. And yes, I am a rebel. I most often don't use an alcohol swab (it makes an injection that's already a bit more painful than most even worse) and I never use a Band Aid. That would be just more unnecessary trash, and a total waste of money.

It's not rocket science. It's really, really not. I don't rule out the possibility that a very small percentage of people have issues caused by the vaccine. But  trying to pin fault on the injection process screams of desperately grasping at straws for something to blame, and I doubt that it's convincing many reasonable people to believe it's part of any issues, or to take possible vaccine reactions any more seriously. If I were pushing the notion that the vaccine itself causes long term issues I'd be very careful of my arguments, and it seems to me, from my layman-with-a-tiny-bit-of-training point of view that this one is a total loser.

[TCB]

I know a couple of younger people under the age of 50, who got Covid twice. One of them after being vaccinated. Their second illnesses were fairly similar to the first.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

 

It's not rocket science. It's really, really not. I don't rule out the possibility that a very small percentage of people have issues caused by the vaccine. But  trying to pin fault on the injection process screams of desperately grasping at straws for something to blame, and I doubt that it's convincing many reasonable people to believe it's part of any issues, or to take possible vaccine reactions any more seriously. If I were pushing the notion that the vaccine itself causes long term issues I'd be very careful of my arguments, and it seems to me, from my layman-with-a-tiny-bit-of-training point of view that this one is a total loser.

Exactly. I am not at ALL saying people don't have reactions to this or any other vaccine. Anything that triggers the immune system, from a cold virus to a measles vaccine to pollen exposure can trigger a reaction - including autoimmune style reactions. But it has nothing to do with accidentally injecting it IV, which is what that man is claiming. 

Telling people to worry about the training of the person giving the vaccine is a red herring and distracts from real life issues. It is trying to control the uncontrollable - sometimes bad things happen, including bad reactions to a medication/vaccination/food/etc. Pretending that if one just makes sure they use the right injection technique it will be safer is trying to give people a false sense of control. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by ktgrok

[goldberry]

16 hours ago, thewellerman said:

I've been refraining from posting the entire pandemic, but I'd really like to talk about vaccine reactions because I've learned so much reading on this board, and because I had a doozy of a reaction.  

The reason why I'm not comparing risking another vaccine with the risk of covid is because I do have some control over my covid exposure.  I understand not everyone does, but my exposure is very, very low.  So, I'm not super excited to purposefully accept another vaccine when I still have near daily headaches, tinnitus, and other issues 4 months out from 1 dose.  

I have respect for that approach, you too @whitestavern.  Most of the unvaccinated I know are taking absolutely ZERO precautions.  They are the ones who refused to wear a mask from the very beginning, were violating gathering guidelines, the whole 9 yards.  If you and others are weighing the risk legitimately, I may not agree with your conclusion but I respect that process.  Mostly that's not what I'm seeing though.

[importswim]

On 11/17/2021 at 11:11 AM, madteaparty said:

FWIW, I’ve travelled internationally 6 times in this pandemic and never managed to catch it. I take measures, and I’m not going to go into them here, but I was traveling before the vaccine. I’m vaccinated but not boostered (and won’t be unless it’s required for travel) my daughter is not vaccinated.

however my sister has had covid twice, and she was vaccinated. mild symptoms both times, and milder the second time (also, one infection was pre vaccine one post). 
ETA that my sister doesn’t seem able to produce antibodies, of any sort. She works in healthcare and has needed vaccines repeated for this reason. 

DH flew approximately 60 flights a month from march 2020 until last month and hasn't yet caught it (airline pilot). I did. Sigh.