How do you know if you're being frugal (enough)?

[Aubrey]

Iow, how do you know where the line is between feeling guilty about how you're handling $ & knowing you're doing the best you can & you just don't have much?

 

I feel guilty all the time about $ & I talk like dh & I are frivolous & wasteful. At least...I'm afraid I sound that way. But then when I get the nitty gritty details of other people's lives, I find that our standards are different. They work & sweat & worry over budgets & a million other details--from making everything at home & couponing to working 2-4 jobs, etc. But they spend it on cable TV, fancy cell phones, etc. Which is fine, you know, but by the way they talk *generally,* I thought they were barely making ends meet & really scraping by, etc.

 

I guess what I'm asking is...how do you know where the line is between normal expenditures & frivolous? For example, I know that family housing in my area is pretty much $1000/mo on the bare min side of avg., so I don't really feel guilty about our rent since it's considerably under that. Whether or not we're earning enough $, I *know* we're not "wasting" it there.

 

Otoh, we could save $ by moving to a 1 bedroom apt, you know. W/ 4 dc, I know that would be insane. I'm not saying nobody has ever had to do that, but that's far enough below basic standards that I know nobody's thinking, "Gee, do they really *need* all 1000 square feet they've got?"

 

W/ other things, though, I'm not really sure where to draw the lines. How much should I expect to spend on food ea mo? How much should I reasonably expect to be able to make myself & how much "convenience" is *reasonable* (i.e., not frivolous) for a family of 4 in seminary?

 

Sometimes I think my standards are WAY too high. Afterall, my grandmother was raised by depression-era parents. While she should have felt RICH compared to her childhood since she was having babies in the 50s, she was divorced w/ 5 dc to raise & was actually poorer as an adult than as a child. So the super-poor bare-bones standards set by her parents continued or were even pared down.

 

So my mom should have felt rich since she was raising dc in the 80s when at least women could find work more readily than in the 50s, but she, too, was raising kids alone. Unlike her mother, she had very little family support, & she didn't date. (Grm received cars, large appliances, etc. fr my gr-grandparents & her boyfriends.)

 

So the mindset of poverty was continued. Now that I'm raising kids, dh was making around $40,000/yr before we came to seminary. That's a larger income than (I think) anyone in my family has EVER made. By nearly double. But housing prices were so inflated, etc., that even w/ a run-down house w/ 1 bath in a bad neighborhood & a single Korean car, we were barely making it, & I felt like it was my fault.

 

Now that we're here & dh is working the kinds of jobs that go w/ a school schedule, I still feel like it's *my* fault if we don't make ends meet. I spend too much $ on books at 1/2 Price Books or I buy too many things at the Goodwill or I'm frivolous w/ gas to drive out to see my grandparents or I'm lazy because I don't have a job.

 

I need a standard to judge by, kwim? Because according to depression-era economics, I'm sunk!

 

Fwiw, I say all of this sort-of tongue-in-cheek so that it's easier to talk about but also to extend the conversation beyond "what you can afford." I think the "what you can afford" advice is fine for middle income & up, but when you're talking about the lower incomes, it sort of needs to be phrased in reverse: "you need at least X to survive."

 

I know in the past, dh & I have had trouble communicating because he'd say things like, "I don't care about a lot of money. I just want enough to buy the things we need." So I'm hearing no electricity or running water while he means living modestly--w/ enough resources to feed, clothe, & house a family & share w/ friends & neighbors. His view is way beyond need to me, but I've begun to realize that when people talk about their incomes & their struggles, they might be envisioning something more vague like dh instead of the inner-city version of a pioneer that I see, lol.

 

Anyway, what do y'all think?

[Carol in Cal.]

There is this great book called "Your Money or Your Life" that helps people to evaluate their spending in light of their values. It walks them through a great process of thinking about this.

 

I have found that this book literally changed my way of thinking. Now if I choose not to get something that I want, it's because I have other priorities that I choose to be FOR, rather than just being against spending.

 

Also, for me, the difference between frugal and cheap is that cheap is miserly and basically loving money so much that it hurts to spend any. Whereas frugal is choosing to be very careful in most areas because you have other priorities, which could include your DH finishing his degree with a minimum of debt, or you being able to continue homeschooling--it's not just about what you would buy with those funds; it's about the life that you want to have, the life choices that are most in line with your values.

 

I know that I haven't answered your question per se, but these are the best starting points, IMO, for you to answer it for yourself.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Carol in Cal.

[Julie in Austin]

I think:

 

frugal=spending less than you earn + saving a little + giving to charity/church

 

In the case of student families expecting a higher income in the future, I think the saving part of the equation can drop out for awhile.

[Parrothead]

Aubrey, When you feel lazy because you aren't working outside the home for pay, evaluate how much it would actually cost you to go to work. Figure in child care, work clothing, lunch, gas, second vehicle, taxes, everything it would cost you to go to work. Somewhere on the 'net there is a calculator for that. I used it a few years ago and found that if I went to work (outside of my field which is all that is available to me in the places we live), it would actually cost us $176.00 a month for me to go to work.

[Aubrey]

Aubrey, When you feel lazy because you aren't working outside the home for pay, evaluate how much it would actually cost you to go to work. Figure in child care, work clothing, lunch, gas, second vehicle, taxes, everything it would cost you to go to work. Somewhere on the 'net there is a calculator for that. I used it a few years ago and found that if I went to work (outside of my field which is all that is available to me in the places we live), it would actually cost us $176.00 a month for me to go to work.

 

Those calculators assume a lot, though. They assume that you'll need to replace your clothes at full dept store cost pretty often, that any car pmts you'd be making if you work go away if you stay home, that you'd need childcare, etc.

 

The calculators also don't tell you whether you're working hard enough or not, kwim? One woman enters her #s, finds that working would be more expensive than staying home, & sits in front of the TV. Another woman gets the same results & uses her time to...I don't know...do meal planning, couponing, babysitting... something that *will* make a difference.

 

I guess I think the calculators are a little one-dimensional. I *know* we'd come out ahead *financially* if I were working. The cost to us in terms of family is too great, though. Otoh, that statement right there means we have to make other financial sacrifices rather than living in la-la land where checkbooks balance themselves, lol.

 

And, of course, there's always the question of having worked hard enough. The farmer whose crops fail is not faulted for not working--he's just had hard times. But in today's society, I'm afraid our tendency is to treat the farmer like a delinquent. I'm afraid the farmer will look at his crops & wonder if he'd have gotten up a little earlier, stayed out a little later, gotten a 2nd job at Starbucks just in case...see what I mean? I just want to know when we can KNOW that we've done enough.

 

It's a question that I wonder if our culture can even answer, though. We're so crammed between the Puritan work ethic & the consumerism brand of patriotism that sometimes it's hard to know up from down!

 

I'm not necessarily looking for a specific answer. I know it will vary a little for everyone. I guess I'm just thinking about it myself & hoping for a friendly conversation. :001_smile:

[*Inna*]

I guess it depends on your family.

 

A few years back we sat down and talked about getting out of debt while having only DH work. We went over our expenses and decided what is absolute must and what can go.

For example a high speed internet access is an absolute must for our family. But we got rid of DirectTV. We don't eat out, but we eat nice meals at home.

 

For us being frugal is not following impulses and spending money, but planning wisely. We got rid of the debt, had two kids, bought a house while maintaining this kind of attitude.

[BMW]

I look back over the year and wonder... how many Sarbucks did I buy? What would that total be? What exactly did I spend on books? What amount did we spend eating out? When were those times necessary and when were they avoidable? If I could go through the year again, what changes would I/could I make?

 

You know... Starbucks in the middle of packing and moving just really made sense and got me through the day... Other times you wont catch me spending just a few dollars there!

 

I see over many years and looking back that there were always areas I could have done better in. Having a monthly plan and longer term goals is my best ally for making progress in the frugal area.

 

There is just one thrift store nearby and it is overpriced and not very nice... I try to shop sales. I bake most of our bread and all bagels. I make our laundry soap and now our dish soap. I try to keep our food costs down.

 

Like I said, for us, it is taking each month and having a plan... with some longer term goals.

[FO4UR]

I am a seminary momma too!:grouphug:

 

I think, adding in faith that God will provide for His children when they are in His will adds another dimension that needs to be discussed. Ever read George Mueller?

[Colleen in NS]

So I'm hearing no electricity or running water

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: I am howling here at the computer, because this is so ME!!!!

 

Same thing with moving to smaller living quarters - I'm always plotting how I can convince dh to sell the 1100 sq. ft. 3 br 1 bath house and move to a 2BR apt. again, like we had in pre-mortgage days. When I read about how much bigger others' houses are, or see them in my area, I think my house is so small compared to them, but yet, I don't really *need* all this space.

 

I experiment a lot, with cost saving measures, big and little. I've read the Complete Tightwad Gazette many times. I've wrestled with the same questions of how little is too little. I just try to evaluate what OUR needs are, and OUR income, and work with that. And I try to put blinders on to what others are doing. Dh and I used to be a lot more opposite in money matters, but we are meeting more in the middle now. He has tightened up, and I have lightened up, somewhat on both sides.

 

Don't know if this helps, but this is an interesting thread to me.

[Colleen in NS]

The calculators also don't tell you whether you're working hard enough or not, kwim?

 

And, of course, there's always the question of having worked hard enough. The farmer whose crops fail is not faulted for not working--he's just had hard times. But in today's society, I'm afraid our tendency is to treat the farmer like a delinquent. I'm afraid the farmer will look at his crops & wonder if he'd have gotten up a little earlier, stayed out a little later, gotten a 2nd job at Starbucks just in case...see what I mean? I just want to know when we can KNOW that we've done enough.

 

It's a question that I wonder if our culture can even answer, though. We're so crammed between the Puritan work ethic & the consumerism brand of patriotism that sometimes it's hard to know up from down!

 

I think like this all the time, too. It drives me crazy. I'm always thinking, "If I could just discipline myself enough so that I cram in one or two hours of tutoring per day, I could make a few hundred dollars a month." But I'd be going non stop for 14 or so hours every day, and be worn out and not do the job in homeschooling that I want to do. So we live within our small means. We've made it work so far, but I still, every week, think about trying to tutor again. "If only I tried harder....." I hear ya. If we weren't making ends meet on what dh makes, I'd have to....but like I said, I just keep experimenting with things to bring costs down and keep them down. Right now that's easier than tutoring.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Colleen in NS

[Peela]

Yeah, I find different people have very different ideas of what is basic, and what is essential, and what is luxury.

For us, having a big house is virtually essential- for dh's work form home, homeschooling, and the sanity of our marriage. So that's a priority for us. Not that we pay a high rent, but we do have a high eletricity bill.

Yet we rarely buy anything new- clothes, kitchen wear, furniture, stuff for the kids, bikes, cars- its all 2nd hand. We are experts at 2nd hand stuff.

Dh has cable tv, but the rest of us barely watch any. Yet we all have a laptop.

We live in a wealthy suburb, and compared to our neighbours we are poor. Yet we feel we live really well. Partly because we are surrounded by nice houses and we dont want for anything. And partly because we live in a city and yet are a few hundred metres from the river and miles of nature. It's so beautiful.

I truly feel "abundance" is what most people are looking for, and most dont really feel they have enough. I know a family who are far more wealthy than us yet the dad compares himself to a brother in law who has far more money..so he feels poor and has anxiety around money. It's all in the mind. there is no objective standard.

My spare spending cash is going to buying organic moisturiser and shampoo, organic meat and milk...these are luxury items to many yet I watch where I put my money, and I choose to support specific people and companies that are heading the world in a better direction, IMO.

[catalinakel]

I want to contribute to the conversation, but you have said so much, and I am a bit fuzzy brained here.....so I am not going to be necessarily thorough or coherent, but just adding my few cents.

 

We have been a one income family with little to no luxuries for all of our married life. I shop thrift stores for almost all of our needs....I think you do too, right? So I know about saving a buck for necessities. I have never clipped coupons regularly because I don't buy what they are selling mostly. I go to three different markets to get things at the best prices. Our one main luxury (maybe twice a month) is eating out, and it is something that both dh and I enjoy and appreciate, but we are rarely fancy about it, and when times are lean, I cook at home only.

 

Do you feel like you are lazy? I know that I feel that way often because I really am lazy...when I am being honest with myself. Trying to break the lazy streak has helped me alot...and one of the gauges I use to measure my daily productiveness comes from a women's retreat I went to as an young wife. The speaker spoke of making sure she put in eight hours of work each day like her dh did. Now, I know that a woman's work is never done, but I also know that I can be really lazy, so to up the ante when I know that I am feeling lazy, I 'put myself on the clock' so to speak. I work hard around the house for at least eight hours.

 

If there is more that you can reasonably do, do it. If your husband is complaining about your spending, nix it. Guilt can be helpful, but guilt for guilt's sake is crippling. Hoping to be encouraging here.........

[Joanne]

I guess I think the calculators are a little one-dimensional. I *know* we'd come out ahead *financially* if I were working. The cost to us in terms of family is too great, though. Otoh, that statement right there means we have to make other financial sacrifices rather than living in la-la land where checkbooks balance themselves, lol.

 

*Respectfully and gently*

 

With the ages of your kids, and from the perspective of a former daycare owner, I find this very difficult to believe as a reality.

 

I'm a WOH mom now; the costs (subjective and financial) are tremendous.

[gardening momma]

Now that we're here & dh is working the kinds of jobs that go w/ a school schedule, I still feel like it's *my* fault if we don't make ends meet. I spend too much $ on books at 1/2 Price Books or I buy too many things at the Goodwill or I'm frivolous w/ gas to drive out to see my grandparents or I'm lazy because I don't have a job.

I haven't finished reading the entire thread yet, but wanted to comment. I've been looking into ways to be more frugal, so this topic is very relevant to me right now.

 

If you think you might be spending too much on books, then cut back...use the library instead. Is that an option for you? I use the library much more than I used to, and even with an occasional .10 fee now and then, I'm spending so much less than when I buy books.

 

I've also cut down on the number of trips to thrift stores (like Goodwill, and others), because even though I can get things there so much cheaper than buying new, I do always buy.

 

I've cut down on the number of trips to the grocery store. I'm trying to use what we have in our cupboards, even though there are always other things that sound better, they'd require buying more from the store. I'm seriously getting back into couponing. I got some free sour cream today, along with 90% off packets of yeast (they ended up costing me .10 for each 3-pack). That's 90% off the sale price when I used the coupon. I don't know what the original price was. I did splurge and get the stuff I need for tacos tonight, though (to go with the sour cream ;) ). The leftover lettuce and tomatoes can be used for a salad in a day or so.

 

I've cut waaaay back on the number of trips out for fast food, and the number of times I convince dh to take us out for supper or Sunday afternoon dinner.

 

He was very impressed with last month's cc bill. I was shocked at how much I saved, and it encourages me to keep up the good work!

[coffeefreak]

I think Peela said it best (I'm finding that on all the threads you respond to Peela:D). It is all a matter of perception and priorities. And, that doesn't make your priorities wrong because they don't match up with mine, and visa versa.

 

Here's our example. We have been struggling financially for all 11 years of our marriage. My husband has been laid off twice, both times after the children were born, and both times for 7-9 months. Both times he had to start over with a wage of about $11 an hour. We had a house and two cars, student loan debt, and credit card debt.

 

This year, we decided enough was enough. We were tired of trying to hang onto the house, we were tired of car payments, and we were facing yet another unemployment in October of 2009 (Govt Contract work). We had canceled EVERYTHING, even the cellphones (paid to get out of our contract), but it simply wasn't enough. He hadn't been able to find a job to avoid that looming unemployment so, we sold the house, sold the cars (we have one with no car payment), and sold off whatever we could in a garage sale. THEN - he got a FABULOUS job, making more than we've ever made and we started over. The funny thing is, we are so different than we were! We are better off, yet I would consider us less frugal in some areas and more frugal in others.

 

I looked at apartments and said NO!!! So, we rent a house. But, to replace the furniture we sold:lol:, we went on Craigslist and hunted. I had to buy curtains for the rental - I had a price in my mind and stuck with it. And, we have no desk and desperately need a new one, but I can't bear to part with $500 for a piece of particle board! So, the printer is on my bedroom floor, and all the files are still in boxes (my bedroom is a riot, let me tell you). We are getting pressure from EVERYONE to buy another car so, "Dorinda won't be stranded all day" (PULEEZZZ!:glare:). AND EVERYONE feels the need to tell us we are wasting our money renting, even though we have a BIGGER house than the one we just sold, in a BETTER location and the utilities are about HALF the price!

 

However, I also have a shiny new laptop that was a "necessity" when the computer died two weeks ago. My children wear new clothes and shoes because I can't ever seem to find them anything to wear at the thrift store, and I spend $60-$100 getting my hair done every quarter:eek: And I buy a lot of organic groceries because I have a child with a very sensitive stomach who is also lactose intolerant, even though I have some well meaning friends who tell me I waste my money doing that.

 

So, I think you are probably as frugal as you can be where you need to be, and, where you don't need to be, you aren't.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

PS Good thread! Made me think!

[Kimm in WA]

Everytime I cut back and get used to it it doesn't seem so bad, so there's always more I can buy 2nd hand, cook from scratch, or do without if I think about it.

 

I've been trying to do this with groceries, because lately that's been the thing that's going up and I have 4 kids, 3 of them teenage boys! We rarely eat out, but had been purchasing some boxed cereal, brownie mix, mac & cheese, and that sort of thing. I've been trying to ask myself how I could make the item instead of buying it pre-packaged, or if it was something I could live without and substitute. Hillbilly Housewife's website is great for homemade recipes. I have an 8.5yo daughter, so cooking from scratch is something I want to teach her anyway so that is something we can do together.

 

An example of this is refried beans. Do you know how many cans of refried beans it takes to feed a family of 6!! Well, at first I bought beans and added it to hamburger to stretch the meat. Then we went to omitting the meat, and now I made my own refried beans from dried pinto beans, which are cheap! Now going from full-meat tacos to homemade bean-only would've been tough, but it's been gradual changes. So, everything doesn't have to be earth shattering . . . like FlyLady say, "baby steps."

 

A year ago I spent 10 days in Mexico, in a lower-middle class area. WOW. By American standards, it was one step above homelessness in some cases. I came home to our cottage and it felt like a mansion. I was humbled . . . and convicted. People we know thing we're "suffering" because we have only 1 bathroom, 1300 sq. feet upstairs in the main living area (+ 2bdrms.) and 800 sq. feet downstairs for 2 bedrooms open up to a kids' rec room area, and some storage. At times it feels too cozy, especially in the bathroom on Sunday morning, and as the boys are growing! BUT, I've learned to be content here - the benefit is only having to clean one bedroom. We spend lots of time together. I know what's going on with the boys. I'm nearby for my kids.

 

Anyway, it all boils down to attitude. You can always find something that you think you need when really it's usually a luxury. You can always find ways to be more frugal (though not necessarily "cheap") without being "over the top." Some things ARE worth spending money on . . . even if they are luxuries; it just needs to fit in with your priorities.

 

Kimm in WA

[LisaKinVA]

Oh, I know I can be more frugal... I'm not living anywhere close to the lifestyle I had as a starving student and new graduate (the pinto is looong gone!) That said, there are still things I have trouble spending money on (clothes, shoes, hair cuts, really anything for me).

 

2009 will be a huge change for us, though. The nanny is going away (I spent today going, WHY am I paying for this again?) I do have a full time job from home, but seriously, when I'm getting the toddler down off the counter and putting away the mess she made, or the kids are running around the house screaming (not in a mean way, but very loud), or all sitting at a computer playing computer games, with the television on... I'm upstairs trying to cook dinner, and all four are there, and the nanny is DOWNSTAIRS watching television? Seriously.)

 

We're also going through our budget and we're going to make some serious changes. I am bound and determined to clear off the left-over store debt (we closed our store in August), and only have the mortgage to worry about by the end of 2009.

 

However, while I'm making cuts in certain areas ($2200 a month worth of cuts), I'm also going to increase other areas (adding music lessons BACK into our budget, and keeping our education budget as is). Reason being, while I could cut our education budget, it would make it impossible for me to work from home. We cut out music when gas prices went up... and losing the Nanny gets me the funds for that.

 

I don't consider some of those things "necessities" -- they are niceties -- however, everyone sacrifices in one place to afford another (well maybe not everyone, but we still do).

 

I grew up with a penny-pinching father (not due to need, but just because he could). Some of that has stuck, and other things I just can't handle. There is this saying that applies to my dad -- penny wise - pound foolish. He'll delay home maintenance (won't paint the wood trim, because it costs money -- but then the wood around the windows starts to rot and he has to replace it, costing more money than simply keeping up with the paint... won't purchase the relatively window coverings designed to keep the cold air out, and the temperature more even --forcing the heater to run more, or keeping the house so cold that you wind up sick half the winter with doctor's bills).

 

There was a time I couldn't work from home, and going out to get a job with all of the little kiddos was impossible. Sure, I felt guilty. But, the guilt was misplaced. Daycare costs would have eaten up everything we could have saved by my going to work full time. And part-time availability, with a husband who was gone from 5am until nearly 7pm was slim to none. And all of this was before I had to worry about home schooling (thankfully).

 

We've taken the "just because we can, doesn't mean we should" mentality with expenditures. For example, while we "can" afford a new flat screen television, that expense is unnecessary because the 12 yo television we have works fine (for now). While we "can" afford to purchase a different vehicle, we aren't, because the one we have works just fine --although with 7 it is a VERY tight squeeze), so we can use the money to pay off other bills. Just because we "can" afford the movies more often, we don't go -- because we want to use the money for other things... just because I "can" afford to purchase new, full-price clothes for my children, doesn't mean I should. I do purchase quite a bit from gymboree at sales, using gymbucks, etc. But, I don't buy play clothes there. I get those elsewhere. With 3 girls and 2 boys, clothes are sort-of an investment. I'm buying them to hand down. Although passing down any of the boys' pants from size 5-7 has been problematic :tongue_smilie: We still get hand-me-downs from some friends, and my dd wears those too. FREE is still good!

 

I'm not nearly as frugal as you are, or as frugal as I possibly could be -- reading about what others are doing to stretch their money makes me feel guilty for not being more frugal! However, I don't really have a kitchen I can use any time I feel like (microwave and toaster oven only go so far) -- which makes cooking more from scratch problematic. Anything I make I have to be able to pretty much get done in 30 min. or less. My closest sink is the bathtub... and I don't have use of a washing machine on a daily basis either, which means we have more clothes than I needed as a child (more than 7 pair of underwear).

 

Aubrey from everything I've read about you, you are doing an incredible job stretching the dollars you have.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You can always cut back further. Look at the people in third-world countries. BUT (and this is a big one that you've already alluded to): at what cost? Those people living in a small closet-size house with only rice and beans to eat do have lower life expectancies, disease, problems from vitamin deficiencies, higher infant mortality, low rates of schooling for their kids etc. Now of course in our country cutting down isn't going to all of a sudden make you get typhoid fever! But you can have real costs in terms of your healthy, your sanity, your families' happiness. Money has been tight for us. But I think as long as we are able to afford it even a little, we are going to have our little luxuries even if they are small in relation to others because that is part of God's blessings for us. And because it allows me to do this frugal living long-term.

[TraceyS/FL]

The nanny is going away (I spent today going, WHY am I paying for this again?)

Good. Because it doesn't sound at all what you should be getting for that dollar amount. Heck, my DH has worked for about that amount and well, you aren't getting that dollar amount worth of work from her.

 

:grouphug: I'll be hoping and praying that you find a workable solution.

 

Aubrey from everything I've read about you, you are doing an incredible job stretching the dollars you have.

 

:iagree:

 

Frivolous isn't really something i think of when i think of you Aubrey - not at all.

[hillfarm]

Are you being frugal enough? Hard for anyone else to tell. Are you able to live within your means? Do you feel guilty that you spend so much money?

 

IMO, as long as you are paying your bills, keeping your family safe and healthy, and not harming others, then you have every right to do whatever you want with the rest of your money. If your lifestyle is not making you unhappy, you are being frugal enough.

 

However, if you are not paying your bills and don't have enough money to keep your family safe and healthy, or are harming others with your lifestyle, then you are not frugal enough and need to either make drastic financial cuts or bring in more money right away. This lifestyle cannot be sustained and will eventually crash and burn leaving you and your family as its victims.

 

It is as simple as that. No one else can tell you whether you are frugal enough or not. Based on my travels in other countries, I have come to the conclusion that few American families are living a truly bare-bones existence. We could almost all be more frugal and still live, if we had to do so. (The right to a long, healthy life is not a given.) But there is nothing wrong with enjoying some of the fruits of your family's labors and enjoying life somewhere above the subsistence level. Don't beat yourself up about this. If you are not at peace with your financial lifestyle however high or low, then make some changes, otherwise thank God and enjoy your life.

[Aubrey]

Are you being frugal enough? Hard for anyone else to tell. Are you able to live within your means? Do you feel guilty that you spend so much money?

 

IMO, as long as you are paying your bills, keeping your family safe and healthy, and not harming others, then you have every right to do whatever you want with the rest of your money. If your lifestyle is not making you unhappy, you are being frugal enough.

 

However, if you are not paying your bills and don't have enough money to keep your family safe and healthy, or are harming others with your lifestyle, then you are not frugal enough and need to either make drastic financial cuts or bring in more money right away. This lifestyle cannot be sustained and will eventually crash and burn leaving you and your family as its victims.

 

It is as simple as that. No one else can tell you whether you are frugal enough or not. Based on my travels in other countries, I have come to the conclusion that few American families are living a truly bare-bones existence. We could almost all be more frugal and still live, if we had to do so. (The right to a long, healthy life is not a given.) But there is nothing wrong with enjoying some of the fruits of your family's labors and enjoying life somewhere above the subsistence level. Don't beat yourself up about this. If you are not at peace with your financial lifestyle however high or low, then make some changes, otherwise thank God and enjoy your life.

 

 

I guess my point is, if you have 2 dc & you make $100,000/yr (in Tx--I don't know about other places), you might not have everything you want, but it's fair to expect you to be comfortable.

 

Otoh, you can't expect to raise 6 dc on min wage. You might be able to scrimp & sacrifice & compromise enough to make it, but you really shouldn't. You should *try* to do better.

 

I'm looking at both ends. One end says to live w/in your means. The other end says you've got to *have* means, lol.

 

And then, for people who aren't making ends meet, obviously they have to cut spending, but I guess I think there's a point at which you have to look at the other end, too. You may be able to string 3 or 4 jobs together to make things work, but nobody thinks that's a good long-term plan.

 

My question is how do we know where the line between trying to earn more & spend less lies? Again, I know that's not in the same place for everyone, but...how does an individual know?

[Jean in Newcastle]

How much longer is seminary? I think the answer to your question depends on if it is long-term or short-term.

 

If your dh will be done this summer, you might be able to cut back more and will be fine.

 

But if he can only take a few classes at a time and this endeavor will go on for years - then I think you should at least very seriously look at earning more as a family.

[Guest janainaz]

I believe it has more to do with your heart about money/things and how you view life. If you find that you can be content with little and still find joy in life, you should be at peace. On the other hand, sometimes God does give us times in our life where we have more and you should also be able to handle that without feeling overwhelming guilt. It's ok to enjoy life and giving is from the heart - not putting in the obligatory OT 10%. Give cheerfully out of your own gratitude.

 

Money and things should also not bring "happiness". Yes, you can have fun, you can buy things that are fun sometimes, but if you "need" those things to feel a certain emotion - it's a red flag. You've got to hold it loosely. My only example is when we bought our house this year. I wanted a house more than ANYTHING for many years. There's a long story behind that want, but I wanted it, I needed it and I was bitter and angry at God for not allowing me to have it. Years went by and when I came to the place where I suddenly realized the great life God had given me - despite having a "house", I found contentment. I did not need it, it did not represent happiness waiting for me, it was not going to add a single thing to my life that I did not already have. So, all of a sudden, we were in a position where we were able to buy and the day we moved in, I was grateful, but did not have the super-excited feeling I would have had years ago. I was already happy and content. Not much could be added to what I already felt in my heart. It could be taken from me - who knows what will happen over this year and I'll take it in stride.

 

My dh has never cared about money. It is not what drives him in his life - at all. He went to seminary years ago and after he graduated decided he did not want to be a pastor in a pulpit. He is in his life everyday with the people God brings to him - through his work, etc., but he's always found something more valuable in life. So, he has a decent job - still not easy for a one income family, but he does ok. He is not motivated by money. He just wants to work and come home to us minus all the stress. He wants to enjoy life and not carry unnecessary burdens. So, we keep our financial burdens to an all-time low.

 

It's ok to have a roof over your head, have food, and enjoy life. I believe this is the way God wants it to be. Again, it's a heart attitude about what you do have or what you don't have.

[Renee in NC]

Do your children have appropriate and necessary food?

 

Are you protected from the weather and elements by your shelter and clothing?

 

Do you have access to basic health care (however you need to access it?)

 

If so, then you are doing okay. No, you can't live "bare bones" for long periods of time without some consequences, but short-term in order to meet a predetermined family goal? Definately!

 

Only you can decide if you are being frugal enough. Only you can decide whether a lack of certain things (above and beyond the absolute bare minimum) mean that you should change your family structure in order to work.

[LaxMom]

You should *try* to do better.

 

I think that's pretty much it. Like all other things, the goal is to do the best you can and always *want* to do better.

 

It's the attitude, not the action. If every time you make a purchase or use a resource you are examining whether this is the best you can do, then you're doing what is appropriate for your family and your finances.

[hillfarm]

I think you have to find the balance point. That financial level where you have a few wants that keep you familiar with delayed gratification but where you also have a few of the little indulgences that make life enjoyable for you. (For my dh, for example, it would be the occasional pound of imported coffee.) A lifestyle where some lofty things are pretty much out of the question and where having the basic necessities of life are a given.

 

That point will be in a different place for each of us and it is important to communicate with your spouse to be sure you both agree where the point is. We used to live in Florida. Both dh and I worked and we had no children. Our life was full of fun--travel, scuba diving, hot air ballooning, parties at the beach, etc. When dh's father died, dh took over a 50% pay cut and I quit my job so we could move home to rural Ohio. One (domestic) vacation in the last 10 years, no diving, no balloons. Lots of farm work and home repair.

 

But because of moving our financial set point, we are just as happy here as we were there. Our income is low but so are our expenses. Our quality of life seems high, we have plenty of fun, and are able to indulge in the previously mentioned occasional unnecessary but nice treats. I think it is mostly a matter of identifying your priorities and covering them. The rest will fall into place or not, but won't really matter all that much.

[LBC]

This can be such a difficult question to answer. Some things that come to mind:

 

First of all, it's always comforted me to think of God as my provider, and work as my responsibility. Whatever my hand finds to do, I endeavor to do it with my whole heart. Sometimes I earn money doing it, and other times I don't, but I do my best at whatever it is. I don't directly link my work with God's provision for me. Now, I also know that there are very real laws of cause and effect that make this philosophy open to debate. I grew up having whatever I needed in life, so I've never been without. My dh had a very different childhood. He grew up in a family with 7 kids, and a dad who went back to school when dh was a baby (youngest of 5 in less than 6 years). They never had much. Dh always worries about money, no matter how much we have/don't have. I think it's just because he knows what it's like to feel as though there's not enough to go around, and I don't.

 

Another thing that helps is to create a budget that you feel comfortable with. Look at what you've been typically spending, and put it into a spreadsheet. Make sure your spending isn't more than you're earning, and then relax. Keep track of what you spend each month to reassure yourself that you're staying within your budget. If there's a special book you want, trade the money from another category. If you really want a steak, make sure you cut back in another area.

 

Right now dh and I are making more money than we've ever made in our lives, but I can remember when cheese was a luxury that I wouldn't consider buying. It's during the lean times of being faithful with little that we learn to be faithful with much. You'll find a balance. :001_smile:

 

Lori

PS - Through all of this, we have never, ever been okay with credit card debt. I think there was only one time in our 18 years of marriage that we didn't pay the entire balance off. If you have credit card debt, try to pay that off as part of your budget, don't just add the monthly payments to your budget. That wouldn't be a "real" budget imho.

[Rosie_0801]

Fwiw, I say all of this sort-of tongue-in-cheek so that it's easier to talk about but also to extend the conversation beyond "what you can afford." I think the "what you can afford" advice is fine for middle income & up, but when you're talking about the lower incomes, it sort of needs to be phrased in reverse: "you need at least X to survive."

 

 

Hmm. My sister has just come back from Kenya. She'll be going back when she has the cash, possibly to marry a chap she met there. He was completely shocked when she mentioned that none of her family would go to Kenya to the wedding. In their society, if you need money badly enough, you contact your cousin who'll sell a cow. You can then do what needs to be done, and hopefully be able to save enough to pay them back at some stage. We can't do that. For starters, our cousins don't have cows available, and secondly, if we took the conventional Western route of taking out a personal loan, we wouldn't be able to pay it back. The reason, of course, we haven't all taken out loans for something else. When my sister sat down with some of them and explained exactly where all our rich Westerner money went, they were shocked to find that we actually have less left in our pocket at the end of the month than they do. Sure we live a higher standard of living, but we live in a society where cars, mobile phones, the internet and insurance are necessary things. In Kenya, those things aren't necessary.

You don't live in the depression era, so while a few of those tricks might come in handy for you, it's not really possible for you to live that way. You could disconnect the internet and cut off the phone, but you do need them, so what are you going to do? Head down to the library or out to a phone box? Communicate by snail mail? Possible, but really not practical. Our pace of life is faster than either Kenya or the depression era. We just can't live life that slowly even if we wanted to. Besides, if you don't spend money on any luxury items ever, you'll go nuts. Money won't be any good to you if you are all going crazy.

 

Rosie

[chaik76]

What are *your* goals?

For me, no running water or electricity would be more than poverty.

 

What do you expect to achieve from life now and in the future?

 

You have to prioritize what is important to both you and your husband, work on what frugality means for you.

 

For me, frugality means starting to pay off our debt, making a budget and sticking to it. But there are things I consider essential that fall into the "wants" category. Spending money, for example. It is budgeted in because it is that important to me...I am a nicer person when I have some. My dh could go without if he had to...as long as I can feed my kids and keep a roof over our heads, I consider spending money essential...but that might not be essential for you.

 

Because we have a retirement fund, we don't save extra money for retirement, but we do save for emergencies. So...after all our bills are paid, I assume that any leftover money (we don't have much right now!) is for spending on either keeping our house in good order, or for spending on luxury items. For us, high speed internet is essential for dh's job. We have cell phones because we have no land line. We have cable because it is our only entertainment. But those may or may not be necessary for you.

 

We also live in a 900 sf house and have one very beat-up, paid for car. This cuts down on higher costs in those areas. We also have four people in our family, and the size house we have now is the smallest I would go. It's tight as it is. I wouldn't go smaller, and I would sacrifice to stay at this size, or to have a larger house.

 

Are your goals to save money at this time? Or to just make it through seminary? Is it important to you to be able to occasionally treat yourself, your kids, or dh? All I'm trying to say here (and I'm using way too many words), is that you and dh need to sit down and decide what is frugal for your family. Because what is frugal for you may be downright poverty for me, or luxury for someone else. Frugality, wealth, etc..., they're all subjective

 

To me you sound exceptionally frugal, to others you may seem extravagant.

 

I'm sure you'll figure it out.:grouphug:

 

ETA: At this time, if we cut out internet, cable, and our cell phones, along with our spending money, we would be making approximately $400 a month that did not go to bills. So for us, we need at least $2700/mo just to pay our bills, which are as low as we can get them right now.

Edited December 13, 2008 by chaik76

[swellmomma]

There is a fine line between chosing to live frugally and being down right poor when you are getting into incomes that low. I have been both in recent years. When I can not longer afford to keep the car gased up or food in the fridge without help from family I know it is time to earn moe money. Normally we are comfortable, not only do we have our needs met but some of our wants as well, such as buying a new book just because, or dinner out. However, there is some times in the year when our meager budget does not allow for leeway and this is when I look for other sources of income. Such as the summer between all 4 kids birthdays, summer camps, daytrips etc; the holidays of course with it's added cost, I like to give my kids 1 lavish gift at xmas so more income was a must. Even things like ds starting intensive treatment at a private OT which is going to cost me $3000 minimum, or dd needing braces asap so that is another $5000, or our desire to go to guatemala next year so another $4000. In order to pay for any of those things I had to pick up extra work to increase our budget, or face starvation. This month while waiting for myfirst paycheque we have had weeks where we were eating pasta 3 meals a day just to fill tummies and where I skipped meals to make sure the kids belly's were full. THat is being down right poor not frugal.

 

Sure I could take all the money worries away and put the kids back in school and daycare and go work 12 hour shifts at the hospital and bring in big bucks, but to me that is more sacrifice than I am willing to make, I would rather deliver flyers in 30 below zero and eat pasta 3 meals a day in order to remain home F/T.

 

If finances are putting a strain on the marriage, or are casing anxiety issues, if you can not afford to keep the fridge well stocked, or put gas in the car to have enough to attend free events, or if you have immediate needs that your budget can not accomodate easily then it is time to pick up more work. That could be from delivering papers like I do, taking in a child to watch during the day, working a few hours each evening as seasonal staff in a local store etc. If your budget has a little bit of wiggle room (as in if your car needs a new tire tomorrow can you afford one, or if your child suddenly needs medicine you can easily pick it up), and you are meeting all your needs and the occasional want no matter how small, then I think you are doing well, and will make it through his seminary training.

[Audrey]

It helps if you know what you're working towards. What are your goals? You really need to think about that.

 

For us, the frugality was two-part:

1. We were both raised in frugal households.

2. We wanted to pay off the farm mortgage as quickly as possible.

 

So... we were willing to be somewhat *dire* in our frugality. Now, to many people I know, what we did was called dire, indeed, but to us, it wasn't much of a sacrifice. We certainly did NOT go without running water and electricity! It just meant we had a lot more work to do, but that was okay with us, because we're used to that.

 

So, I canned and gardened and learned to butcher, and I helped tend animals and fix anything that broke (literally anything -- we've never even called a mechanic, plumber or electrician, not even for farm stuff). We didn't buy any new clothes except underwear for a long, long time. We didn't eat out. We didn't have satellite tv. The one luxury we afforded ourselves was the internet connection -- but considering how much good info we get off of it on a regular basis, it keeps paying for itself. I could go on and on, but that's pointless.

 

The point is -- we had a clear target in mind. When you're working for something like that, you can see the payoff happening. You can see the finish line. It feels amazing when you get 1/4 of the way there, 1/2 the way there... the sheer thrill of being *almost* there and knowing you're mere months or weeks away from acheiving that goal... it's all worth it.

 

In the end, we acheived our goal and are mortgage free. We're now working on being debt independent. We have cleared away most of our debt except our farm operating line of credit. Now our goal is to finish paying that off, while building up a reserve fund that will become our *own* line of credit -- IOW, we'll borrow what we need for a season from ourselves instead of the bank.

 

We still do all of the things we used to do because that works for us, but we've got a bit more breathing room.

 

It really isn't about what other people think you should do. What do YOU want out of life financially? Debt free? Retirement secured? Room to breathe from the monthly bills? If you can put it down on paper, that's a great starting point. Then, you can map out a way to achieve it.

[Murphy101]

Otoh, you can't expect to raise 6 dc on min wage. You might be able to scrimp & sacrifice & compromise enough to make it, but you really shouldn't. You should *try* to do better.

 

hmmm.. not sure what you mean here...

Getting by on minimum wage is a fine goal. However, if by better you mean better work that I'd agree with. If for no other reason than most minimum wage jobs stink, thus the encouragement to get a better job.;)

 

I'm not sure I understand the questions here at all.

but I'm a very practical gal.

 

To me:

There's nothing wrong with being frivolous IF one can afford it.

IOW, if you can pay cash for whatever and still pay for NEEDS - then there's nothing wrong with being frivolous.

 

If one can't afford to pay cash for a non-need, then it's moot whether one is being frugal enough or not because they don't have the funds for it.

 

If one can't afford to pay for NEEDS with cash, then it's moot that they have to accept some debt/assistance (if they can even pay it) to get what they need.

 

Now, I do know people that go into debt and or work 2+ jobs for non-needs. I guess that's their option, but we don't agree with it because we feel one should work to make a living, not just make debt or buy things. I'd rather have a simple life with dh home more than have the funds from him working more to buy things.

 

We tend to have a much stricter view of needs than others we know.

I think the only things we currently have that we consider "frivolous" are:

 

internet - If I couldn't afford, then it'd be moot. But I do feel it's very hard to home school effectively without it. The ability to research, find deals, and so forth has saved me far more than the monthly fee and I've learned a LOT about materials and methods that I just wouldn't have learned otherwise via contact with random local homeschoolers.

 

cell phones - I'll gladly ditch MY cell phone, but dh is required to have one for work:glare:.

 

NetFlix - we don't have cable or even TVs that are ready for the digital conversion and I don't care. I could easily never turn the TV on except to watch whatever NetFlix we'd picked, but if it had to go, I'd get over it fairly quickly.

 

Let's see what else do we have that's frivolous...

 

dh's pepsi - trust me, NO ONE wants dh to give up pepsi!

 

my coffee - I could ditch that, I'd sure miss it, but I could do it.

 

pets - not paying for kitty liter, pet food, occassional vet stuff...

 

2nd vehicle - can't do without the 12 passenger, but could get rid of dh's econo car. We did live with 1 vehicle for many years and it didn't kill us altho it did cramp our style at times.:) altho, I'd say we break even on having the 2nd car payment vs spending extra gas using the 12 passenger lots more as the only car. Many months, I bet it's cheaper to pay for the 2nd car than to use the 12 passenger that much more.

 

homeschooling - Now *I* do not view being a SAH or a Hs-ing Mom as frivolous, but the vast majority of the world absolutely does, so that's why I'm writing it down. If you are having money problems, the first thing many people usually say is to put the kids in public school and get a job. My dh would sooner work 3 jobs and put us on welfare and loose the house than see me get a job outside the home again or put the kids in schools again. And I totally agree with him. He is NOT of that opinion for any machismo/religious kind of reason. We both simply feel that strongly about our kids having a f/t parent at home and that homeschooling is the best thing for our family.

[Murphy101]

came back to add after talking to me dh ...

 

dh says there's a difference between needing some "extras" in life and being "frivolous".

 

he says a few simple extras once in a while keep one from having a dreary life with of drudgery no joy.

IOW, buying ice cream cones on Sunday as a special treat might be frivolous to some, but it's one of those simple extras that can make hard times not seem so hard and give someone busting their bum something bright to look forward to.

 

he wouldn't consider that frivolous.

 

our netflix, pepsi, coffee, and a few other little things fall into that "extras" category for dh. If we had to do without them, well it'd be moot then. But if we can afford those simple pleasures it's something extra that makes life a bit more enjoyable.

[Katrina]

and to be honest, I don't want to be. I do believe in having no debt, paying for things in cash, and saving for the future, but that's about as far as I want to take it. I think your question was "how do you know when you're being frugal enough." Well, for my dh and I, we both agree that our financial goal in life is to be comfortable. We want to be able to take trips, to have enough money saved up to significantly help pay for our dc college, etc. We do set up a budget so we know when we're overspending. That's how and where my dh and I draw the line.

 

(Rereading this...I don't want to sound like we are irresponsible with our money; we do set up a Dave Ramsey type budget and try not to waste our money but spend it smartly and make our money stretch. My personal goal is to cut down our food budget right now. But I also don't want to have the "we must do without" mentality either, if that makes sense.)

[coffeefreak]

Did anyone watch 20/20 Friday night? Now THAT is frugal. This guy digs through the garbage cans in GAS STATIONS! He's never even bought his wife flowers! She said the one time she received flowers from him, they were from a funeral home's dumpster. AND he eats what people leave on their plates at restaurants. YIKES!!! I call that CHEAP, but he calls it frugal. I guess it reall is in the eye of the beholder:eek:

[LisaKinVA]

Did anyone watch 20/20 Friday night? Now THAT is frugal. This guy digs through the garbage cans in GAS STATIONS! He's never even bought his wife flowers! She said the one time she received flowers from him, they were from a funeral home's dumpster. AND he eats what people leave on their plates at restaurants. YIKES!!! I call that CHEAP, but he calls it frugal. I guess it reall is in the eye of the beholder:eek:

 

What's his name? Maybe he's a long lost relative of my father's ... well, he has improved somewhat. But he's still known to occassionally to raid my trash can for left-overs gone bad (apparently, not bad enough for his stomach).

 

But, I agree... unless the man is starving, homeless, or can't make ends meet any other way... that's not frugal -- it's CHEAP.

 

I read an article many moons ago, about being "CHEAP" vs. frugal. Being cheap had at it's core a selfish, "love of money." Being frugal is about making wise spending decisions.

[stripe]

YIKES!!! I call that CHEAP, but he calls it frugal. I guess it reall is in the eye of the beholder:eek:

There is a matter of health one should consider, and poor taste (which may or may not be the same thing)....Why not drink water from the toilet bowl? Cook your friends' pets? Steal things?

 

I read a book recently that made mention of a woman who died a millionaire, and alone, who let her adult child die instead of paying for medical care, or something like that.

 

These things are too frugal!

[coffeefreak]

I think this link to the story will work:

 

Greatest American Cheapskate

 

He lives in Vermont, and it is ridiculous! Cheap and gross!

[Garga]

You're being frugal enough when your bills are paid, when you have buffer savings, and when you have retirement savings.

 

If you don't have those three things, then perhaps you need to be more frugal, get a new job, or pray real hard (and I don't mean that as flippantly as it sounds.)

 

If you've got those things, then you're frugal enough and you can play with some of the money left over.

[Mommyof4ks]

For us frugal means that we spend money wisely, so that we have enough left for fun. We chose to spend our money on memories rather than material things for our kids, and that comes only after we have the bills paid, food, clothes, and savings for emergencies, retirement, and college.

 

We have savings and all of our basic needs are currently met, so we are saving up for a few fun things in 2009!

 

Life is too short to save everything and forget to enjoy what we have been blessed with.