Sharyl Attkisson investigates origin of Covid-19

[Fritz]

After reading The Hot Zone several years ago I thought it was just a matter of time before a viral pandemic would result from a leak from one of these labs. Is that what happened this time? I have suspected that to be the case from the beginning. The wet market story just doesn't hold up IMO.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/04/27/sharyl_attkisson_investigates_covid_19.html

[maize]

Zoonosis happens frequently in nature.

The simplest explanation is most likely to be true.

[Fritz]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Zoonosis happens frequently in nature.

The simplest explanation is most likely to be true.

Perhaps. If that's the case how did this happen?:  French virologist Luc Montagnier, a Nobel Prize recipient, arrived at the same conclusion a year ago. He says Covid-19’s genetics reveal “manipulation.” “Someone added sequences,” he said. “It’s the work of professionals, of molecular biologists…a very meticulous work.”

[WildflowerMom]

I have to ask... if it came from a lab, then what?   I mean the Chinese have suffered as much as the rest of the world from covid.   And I'm pretty sure every major country is doing the same thing wrt to making diseases.  So if it came from a lab, what could be done about that?   If you shut down a lab, then every lab in every country would need to be inspected and shut down and I can guarantee that won't happen.  

[maize]

26 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Perhaps. If that's the case how did this happen?:  French virologist Luc Montagnier, a Nobel Prize recipient, arrived at the same conclusion a year ago. He says Covid-19’s genetics reveal “manipulation.” “Someone added sequences,” he said. “It’s the work of professionals, of molecular biologists…a very meticulous work.”

In science, the opinion of one person has far less significance than the consensus of multiple knowledgeable researchers. He can say whatever he wants; that doesn't make what he says valid and true.

https://science.thewire.in/the-sciences/luc-montagnier-coronavirus-wuhan-lab-pseudoscience/

If virologists as a group reach a consensus that the virus was artificially manipulated I will believe it. At this point research into the SARS-COV-2 virus--and there are piles and piles of that, dozens of papers just in the copies of Nature I have scattered around my house--does not point to such a conclusion.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

I have to ask... if it came from a lab, then what?   I mean the Chinese have suffered as much as the rest of the world from covid.   And I'm pretty sure every major country is doing the same thing wrt to making diseases.  So if it came from a lab, what could be done about that?   If you shut down a lab, then every lab in every country would need to be inspected and shut down and I can guarantee that won't happen.  

That's the question. What does it matter where it came from at this point? If people are saying that to raise awareness that we should be careful with labs... sure, why not. That's a fine reason to say it. But that's not usually why people are saying it. 

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, Fritz said:

 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/04/27/sharyl_attkisson_investigates_covid_19.html

This is not a credible source for scientific information.

Edited April 29, 2021 by regentrude

[Not_a_Number]

@Sneezyone, what were you saying, lol? 

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Fritz said:

Perhaps. If that's the case how did this happen?:  French virologist Luc Montagnier, a Nobel Prize recipient, arrived at the same conclusion a year ago. He says Covid-19’s genetics reveal “manipulation.” “Someone added sequences,” he said. “It’s the work of professionals, of molecular biologists…a very meticulous work.”

What one person claims is irrelevant,  even if they have a Nobel prize. This question has been investigated by many scientists,  and the scientific consensus in the community at this point is that there is no evidence for artificial manipulation. 

[Fritz]

2 hours ago, WildflowerMom said:

I have to ask... if it came from a lab, then what?   I mean the Chinese have suffered as much as the rest of the world from covid.   And I'm pretty sure every major country is doing the same thing wrt to making diseases.  So if it came from a lab, what could be done about that?   If you shut down a lab, then every lab in every country would need to be inspected and shut down and I can guarantee that won't happen.  

Well now that over 3 million people are dead from Covid-19, I would think it would behoove us all to find out how this virus came about. If it escaped from this lab, as suggested by more and more scientists, we should want to get to the bottom of how this happened and what measures need to be taken to prevent this from happening ever again. I have not suggested the Chinese people are to blame in any way. To just accept it as oh well shit happens seems extremely negligent and an insurance of it happening again.

[regentrude]

Sharyl Attkinsson's microbiological expertise is credentialed how? I thought she's a journalist?

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Fritz said:

as suggested by more and more scientists. 

Cite, please. I'd like some virologists on the record as saying this. 

As for what should be done: do you have suggestions for what should happen? 

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Fritz said:

 If it escaped from this lab, as suggested by more and more scientists,

Do you have links to scientific articles in reputable journals? 

Edited April 29, 2021 by regentrude

[maize]

Who are these more and more scientists? Where are their peer-reviewed papers?

[Fritz]

25 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Cite, please. I'd like some virologists on the record as saying this. 

As for what should be done: do you have suggestions for what should happen? 

I was referring to the scientists quoted within the article. Do we have proof of the wet market theory? I don't think so. Again, I am just saying with the enormity of this virus and the devastating results we should want to know for certain how this virus came about and what can be done to prevent a future similar occurrence. As for what changes would need to be made would depend what the investigation revealed as the cause.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I was referring to the scientists quoted within the article. Do we have proof of the wet market theory? I don't think so. Again, I am just saying with the enormity of this virus and the devastating results we should want to know for certain how this virus came about and what can be done to prevent a future similar occurrence. As for what changes would need to be made would depend what the investigation revealed as the cause.

Technically, this article didn't actually cite any scientists: it just said they weren't willing to be cited. 

But actually, I've seen Slate run something about this recently: 

https://slate.com/technology/2021/04/covid-lab-leak-theory-pandemic-research.html

This is actually a source and it actually cites a scientist 😄 . I haven't researched this much, but I'll say that at some point DH was looking at the Broad Institute as a possible place to work -- it's a real place. 

[Moonhawk]

I'm not expecting a meaty scientific thread, but I think it's perfect for

🍿 🍿  🍿 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Moonhawk said:

I'm not expecting a meaty scientific thread, but I think it's perfect for

🍿 🍿  🍿 

Can you pass me some of that? 

[WildflowerMom]

1 hour ago, Fritz said:

Well now that over 3 million people are dead from Covid-19, I would think it would behoove us all to find out how this virus came about. If it escaped from this lab, as suggested by more and more scientists, we should want to get to the bottom of how this happened and what measures need to be taken to prevent this from happening ever again. I have not suggested the Chinese people are to blame in any way. To just accept it as oh well shit happens seems extremely negligent and an insurance of it happening again.

I agree that we want to figure out ways to prevent it from happening again, whether it was from a wet market or anything else.    If it did come from a lab leak, the truth won’t exactly be revealed.    I do hope that other governments are extremely careful wrt this kind of thing.  But at the same time, I don’t really expect much from them.   🤷🏻‍♀️  

[Farrar]

Given that we don't know for sure what the origins of the virus are, it's not actually crazy to think it may be tied to the lab that's often cited. It could be. But an overwhelming consensus of scientists studying it across many countries, with all sorts of backgrounds and biases all agree that it's a naturally occurring pathogen and I can't do anything but trust the consensus of actual experts. If it has anything to do with any lab, it's because it was a naturally occurring pathogen that was not properly handled and not some engineered virus. The speculative narrative in the Slate piece linked is certainly one possibility. But who the heck knows. Given China's obfuscation, it seems likely that we'll never know for sure.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The speculative narrative in the Slate piece linked is certainly one possibility. But who the heck knows. Given China's obfuscation, it seems likely that we'll never know for sure.

I think "who the heck knows" is about right. Also, there's nothing that we can do about any of it and no way to figure out the truth. It's kind of annoying 😛 . 

[Katy]

I looked into this a few months ago when WaPo did a series of articles trying to discredit a paper from some virologist who claimed it couldn’t come from a natural source because it contained strains from animals that were incompatible with strains from other animals; it couldn’t exist in nature. It wasn’t proof but the viral dna  and the location it was found raised enough questions to at least merit further investigation.

Apparently this paper was used by right wing conspiracy theorists to advance their own agenda over the past year. The attacks on this paper from the scientific community were basically that it wasn’t peer reviewed and was being mis-cited in propaganda that was included in anti-vax information.

Anyway I came to the conclusion that it was as likely as not a lab leak but it didn’t matter other than possibly a call to regulate international virology labs.

I did come across one interesting conspiracy theory. Apparently many people in South Korea think the virus was engineered solely as a weapon to kill Kim Jong-un.  They believe it did kill him almost a year ago, and the person appearing as him is a body double. And that the military is in some sort of power struggle to choose his replacement. He apparently killed all the likely candidates. 

[Farrar]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think "who the heck knows" is about right. Also, there's nothing that we can do about any of it and no way to figure out the truth. It's kind of annoying 😛 . 

Well, I actually assume there are scientific ways of tracing the origins. Certainly scientists have done that with other viruses. Work over time has given us a much better sense of the likeliest origins for HIV, Ebola... My sense is that the Chinese could investigate and discover a lot more, even if they might not be able to definitively discover the answers. And maybe they have and they know it was because of poor lab procedures or the wet market or something. None of those would make them look very good, so no reason to reveal more.

Labs should always be careful, revise best procedures, etc. Wet markets need to be regulated. Humans need to stop encroaching on wildlife every which way. No matter which origin story Covid had, the next one could be any of the above.

Fun fact about Farrar. I've been to the wet market that people often blame for SARS. That was the city where I lived and I used to take crazy long walks and visited all the wet markets and weird corners of town.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Katy said:

I looked into this a few months ago when WaPo did a series of articles trying to discredit a paper from some virologist who claimed it couldn’t come from a natural source because it contained strains from animals that were incompatible with strains from other animals; it couldn’t exist in nature. It wasn’t proof but the viral dna  and the location it was found raised enough questions to at least merit further investigation.

Apparently this paper was used by right wing conspiracy theorists to advance their own agenda over the past year. The attacks on this paper from the scientific community were basically that it wasn’t peer reviewed and was being mis-cited in propaganda that was included in anti-vax information.

Yeah, I do think a LOT of the resistance to this theory is how it's being used. No one wants to be producing evidence for conspiracy theorists is the problem, so the stance is definitely partially political. 

 

6 minutes ago, Katy said:

Anyway I came to the conclusion that it was as likely as not a lab leak but it didn’t matter other than possibly a call to regulate international virology labs.

I wouldn't be surprised, but as you say, it's not clear what it would even change. 

 

6 minutes ago, Katy said:

I did come across one interesting conspiracy theory. Apparently many people in South Korea think the virus was engineered solely as a weapon to kill Kim Jong-un.  They believe it did kill him almost a year ago, and the person appearing as him is a body double. And that the military is in some sort of power struggle to choose his replacement. He apparently killed all the likely candidates. 

Haven't heard that one before! Whoa. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Farrar said:

Fun fact about Farrar. I've been to the wet market that people often blame for SARS. That was the city where I lived and I used to take crazy long walks and visited all the wet markets and weird corners of town.

That IS a fun fact. How long did you live in China for? 

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

That IS a fun fact. How long did you live in China for? 

Only a year. Before SARS, so quite awhile ago now.

[maize]

"Natural virus that escaped from a lab" (or infected a scientist on a virus-gathering expedition) is a very different proposition from "human-modified virus."

Edited April 30, 2021 by maize

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, maize said:

"Natural virus that escaped from a lab" (or infected a scientist on a virus-gathering expedition) is a very different proposition from "human-modified virus."

True. I suppose I don't care about the answer enough to really dig here. The former does seem plausible enough to me. 

[Katy]

Even if it is a human modified virus that doesn't mean it was meant as a weapon or anything else nefarious.  Labs have been studying coronaviruses since SARS. 

[bookbard]

I actually think that we should be focusing more on what it means that it wasn't (probably) a lab designed virus.

It means that by encroaching on wild spaces, and poaching wild animals, we are opening ourselves up to extinction from zoonotic diseases.

Perhaps this means we should try to protect wild spaces, prevent poaching, and stop destroying the environment??

[maize]

5 minutes ago, bookbard said:

I actually think that we should be focusing more on what it means that it wasn't (probably) a lab designed virus.

It means that by encroaching on wild spaces, and poaching wild animals, we are opening ourselves up to extinction from zoonotic diseases.

Perhaps this means we should try to protect wild spaces, prevent poaching, and stop destroying the environment??

We've been encroaching on wild spaces for the entire history of our species.

Protecting wild spaces and the environment has value, we don't need hyperbolic reasoning to understand that.

[bookbard]

8 minutes ago, maize said:

We've been encroaching on wild spaces for the entire history of our species.

 

There was a good article recently (if I can find it) which pointed out that for thousands of years, Indigenous people lived without damaging the ecosystem and in fact supported biodiversity. 

My point was that the 'it's a lab!!' thing is a conspiracy theory suggesting 'something must be done!!' when actually the real explanation has just as much need for serious action behind it. 

[BusyMom5]

When the report came put a month or so ago from the WHO, I read it.  I find it very concerning that we still don't know the species this jumped from- and they aren't doing much to find out.  I do think it leaked from the lab- accidentally- and the Chinese government has covered it up.  I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist,  but I think its odd that we are asked to think this the least likely option- with no evidence either way.   I think the Chinese people- and all people of the world who have lost loved ones this year- deserve to know if it was a leak.  It could help change future policies about containment,  procedures,  etc.  

[Katy]

40 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

When the report came put a month or so ago from the WHO, I read it.  I find it very concerning that we still don't know the species this jumped from- and they aren't doing much to find out.  I do think it leaked from the lab- accidentally- and the Chinese government has covered it up.  I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist,  but I think its odd that we are asked to think this the least likely option- with no evidence either way.   I think the Chinese people- and all people of the world who have lost loved ones this year- deserve to know if it was a leak.  It could help change future policies about containment,  procedures,  etc.  

I agree that an accidental lab leak is the most likely scenario.  But I kind of understand lying about it.  There's a very strong value in China to save face.  When the virus first made the news there were also plenty of news reports that the deaths in China had been massively under reported for months.

Then you have a huge upswing in white supremacist and neo-nazi movements in the West.  It's not just in America.  And a huge rise in Asian hate crimes.  Our government has no reason to tell the truth of what is likely, nothing can be done about it, at least not while the epidemic is raging, and it will likely just incite a bunch of violence and war rhetoric with the country we are LEAST likely to want to go to war with.

[Resilient]

8 hours ago, regentrude said:

Sharyl Attkinsson's microbiological expertise is credentialed how? I thought she's a journalist?

Probably.  Journalists are / used to be / should be reporters who can cover a bunch of different fields.  The job description has changed over the years but the journalistic tradition didn't expect the reporter to be an expert in a particular field, but to be capable of reporting on what was going on in different fields.  Some specialized more than others.  

Take a look at Bill Bryson's The Body.  Excellent reporting from a writer who is not a biologist--even given that he exposes a lot of his personal bias re: religion, culture, anthropology and politics.  

[Ausmumof3]

I don’t think we’re going to know any time soon.  At this point the bigger story of the pandemic is how we managed it (or didn’t) I guess.  
 

The local vaccine researcher here believes it was lab origin - not genetically modified but it’s so perfect for living in human cells that he thinks that points to a period of time in a lab.  He does seem like a bit of a crank but he is also a reasonable reputable scientist. 

[Roadrunner]

4 hours ago, Katy said:

Even if it is a human modified virus that doesn't mean it was meant as a weapon or anything else nefarious.  Labs have been studying coronaviruses since SARS. 

That’s right. The only implication is if it came from a lab, even though it was accidental, Chinese government would have or should have known much earlier than they let on. Them hiding this information while not surprising, is criminal. Sort of what happened in USSR when a nuclear plant blew up and they pretended nothing happened as radioactive clouds descended on Europe. 

I was floored when Redfield pointed finger. 

And yes, the natural origin is most probable. We really need to stop eating exotic animals. 

[Fritz]

More thoughts on the origin of Covid-19. 

https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038

 

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, Fritz said:

More thoughts on the origin of Covid-19. 

https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038

medium is not a peer reviewed scientific journal

[Penelope]

On 4/29/2021 at 10:50 PM, BusyMom5 said:

When the report came put a month or so ago from the WHO, I read it.  I find it very concerning that we still don't know the species this jumped from- and they aren't doing much to find out.  I do think it leaked from the lab- accidentally- and the Chinese government has covered it up.  I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist,  but I think its odd that we are asked to think this the least likely option- with no evidence either way.   I think the Chinese people- and all people of the world who have lost loved ones this year- deserve to know if it was a leak.  It could help change future policies about containment,  procedures,  etc.  

I don’t have an opinion one way of the other, and we may not know until one day, some researcher samples the right animal and finds something more suggestive. 
Lab leak of a virus that was being studied seems like a possibility to someone like me who has no idea, lol, and I also thought the WHO report was strange. It put the Chinese-promoted idea of a frozen food origin higher on the list.

A lab leak might not only implicate China, though of course China would have been the ones to cover up if that were the case. NIH apparently provides funding for the Wuhan lab, as well as for gain of function research in other places. Peter Daszak, who headed the WHO investigation, is not an impartial person in evaluating a lab leak possibility. Virologists who say the idea is nonsense understandably wouldn’t want funding cut or research curtailed, but supposedly other scientists who advocate for lab leak possibility sometimes are anti-GOF. And then there are all the conspiracy theories and the fact that the former US administration hinted it was from a lab. And now it’s a year and a half later. So it’s almost impossible to know what to think or even to talk about when considering all the different motivations. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Penelope

[SeaConquest]

4 hours ago, Fritz said:

More thoughts on the origin of Covid-19. 

https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038

 

Why would I listen to that discredited kook over the world's most respected virologists? This is the problem in the US. We are perpetuating conspiracy theories. Please just stop. How many innocent deaths is enough?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Wade

In 2014, Wade released A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History, in which he argued that human evolution has been "recent, copious, and regional" and that genes may have influenced a variety of behaviours that underpin differing forms of human society. The book was criticised in the New York Times Book Review of Sunday 13 July; David Dobbs wrote that it was "a deeply flawed, deceptive, and dangerous book" with "pernicious conceits". Libertarian political scientist Charles Murray, co-author of The Bell Curve, praised it as scientifically valid, and predicted that opposition would be "fanatical" due to political correctness.^[13]

Over a hundred geneticists and biologists categorically dismissed Wade's view of race in a joint letter published in The New York Times on 8 August 2014:

Wade juxtaposes an incomplete and inaccurate account of our research on human genetic differences with speculation that recent natural selection has led to worldwide differences in Intelligence quotient (IQ) test results, political institutions and economic development. We reject Wade's implication that our findings substantiate his guesswork.^[14]

Other scientists argued that Wade had misrepresented their research.^[15]

[Fritz]

5 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

Why would I listen to that discredited kook over the world's most respected virologists? This is the problem in the US. We are perpetuating conspiracy theories. Please just stop. How many innocent deaths is enough?

 

So will more people die if we consider the possibility that the pandemic is the result of a lab leak? If you prefer to not consider the possibility of a lab leak, please feel free to not read anything that suggests otherwise.

 

[SeaConquest]

20 hours ago, Fritz said:

So will more people die if we consider the possibility that the pandemic is the result of a lab leak? If you prefer to not consider the possibility of a lab leak, please feel free to not read anything that suggests otherwise.

You missed the point completely. What you are doing is part of a much larger problem in this country. It is the perpetuation of misinformation and conspiracy theories, many of which are part of a concerted effort by our adversaries to undermine confidence in our experts, our vaccines, our medical system, our system of government, and other norms as a whole. It is a general mistrust of experts that have spent their entire lives dedicated to a profession that is about saving lives. It is the notion that lay people can reasonably substitute their own "research" for the legitimate, peer-reviewed science conducted by these professionals. Being part of this problem is causing deaths. I see it everyday. People refuse lifesaving vaccines and treatments because they have been corrupted by pseudoscience and woo.

Just some small examples:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-disinformation-campaign-aims-to-undermine-confidence-in-pfizer-other-covid-19-vaccines-u-s-officials-say-11615129200

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01084-x    

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/05/21/1002105/covid-bot-twitter-accounts-push-to-reopen-america/

How to stop the spread of misinformation (it happens to the best of us!):

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2021/03/controlling-misinformation 

[EKS]

On 4/29/2021 at 6:30 PM, Not_a_Number said:

I wouldn't be surprised, but as you say, it's not clear what it would even change. 

I don't know what would change, but what should change is the Chinese government's willingness--compulsion, whatever--to downplay things that might go on to kill millions of people worldwide just because they want to save face.  

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, EKS said:

I don't know what would change, but what should change is the Chinese government's willingness--compulsion, whatever--to downplay things that might go on to kill millions of people worldwide just because they want to save face.  

Yes, it SHOULD change. But it probably won't. Authoritarian governments are like that 😕 . 

[EKS]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, it SHOULD change. But it probably won't. Authoritarian governments are like that 😕 . 

It seems to me that China's economy is dependent on a whole lot of other countries.  Those countries need to grow a pair and enforce the norms that come with a global economy--like when you find that you have a deadly novel pathogen circulating among your people, you actually tell the rest of the world about it.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

It seems to me that China's economy is dependent on a whole lot of other countries.  Those countries need to grow a pair and enforce the norms that come with a global economy--like when you find that you have a deadly novel pathogen circulating among your people, you actually tell the rest of the world about it.

I'm really not an expert at international diplomacy, but I imagine this all gets pretty complicated quickly. It's not like I disagree with you about what China ought to do... it's not what any countries of this sort every actually do. 

[EKS]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm really not an expert at international diplomacy, but I imagine this all gets pretty complicated quickly.

I'm sure you're right. 

On the other hand, this is a pretty big issue as it has affected everyone in the entire world.  What really infuriates me is whenever it gets brought up, there is always someone there to cry RACISM! which has literally nothing to do with it.

[Not_a_Number]

17 minutes ago, EKS said:

I'm sure you're right. 

On the other hand, this is a pretty big issue as it has affected everyone in the entire world.  What really infuriates me is whenever it gets brought up, there is always someone there to cry RACISM! which has literally nothing to do with it.

The problem is that when some people in the US get up in arms about it, it DOES feed into racism and doesn't do anything useful, since those people don't have any impact on policy 😕 . 

I don't mean you, but you know what I mean. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[J-rap]

I'm throwing this out there even though it's just one person's perspective...   But... My brother is a scientist who has been on Covid research teams.  (He's a pulmonologist.)  He's been to China numerous times and has worked with scientists there and around the world on various research projects over the years.  Anyway, it's always interesting to hear his views.  After Covid appeared he said that the scientists in his world (both in China and also all around the world) were not surprised at all.  The wet markets in China were well known and had quite the reputation.  They were actually surprised that something like this hadn't happened even sooner.   These are scientists from top research universities and hospitals from around the world and this seemed to be their general reaction.