Sharyl Attkisson investigates origin of Covid-19

[Fritz]

13 hours ago, Penelope said:

Yes, there are some questions about whether the lower BSL level they were using for these experiments was appropriate, and how safe the precautions were even for the field work. 
 

And because many cases are mild or asymptomatic, there is a good chance if might not be immediately noticed if this virus infected a lab worker. 
 

I know nothing about this publication, but I thought this was a good interview laying out the perspective of Richard Ebright, one of the signers of the Open Letter calling for an investigation upthread. https://www.independentsciencenews.org/commentaries/an-interview-with-richard-ebright-anthony-fauci-francis-collins-systematically-thwarted/  Sounds like this whole thing goes deep, deep into history of research, politics, US and foreign institutions. 

 

From the article:

At this point in time, there is no secure basis to assign relative probabilities to the natural-accident hypothesis and the laboratory-accident hypothesis.

Nevertheless, there are three lines of circumstantial evidence that are worth noting.

Proceed, Doctor.

First, the outbreak occurred in Wuhan, a city of 11 million persons that does not contain horseshoe-bat colonies, that is tens of kilometers
from, and that is outside the flight range of, the nearest known horseshoe-bat colonies.  Furthermore, the outbreak occurred at a time of year when horseshoe bats are in hibernation and do not leave colonies

 Another one.

Second, the outbreak occurred in Wuhan, on the doorstep of the laboratory that conducts the world’s largest research project on horseshoe bat viruses, that has the world’s largest collection of horseshoe-bat viruses, and that possessed and worked with the world’s closest sequenced relative of the outbreak virus. The laboratory actively searched for new horseshoe-bat viruses in horseshoe-bat colonies in caves in remote rural areas in Yunnan province, brought those new horseshoe-bat viruses to Wuhan, and then mass-produced, genetically manipulated, and studied those new horseshoe-bat viruses, year-round, inside Wuhan.

 A remarkable coincidence. The last one?

Third, the bat-SARS-related-coronavirus projects at the Wuhan Institute of Virology used personal protective equipment (usually just gloves; sometimes not even gloves) and biosafety standards (usually just biosafety level 2) that would pose very high risk of infection of field-collection, field-survey, or laboratory staff upon contact with a virus having the transmission properties of SARS-CoV-2.

[Fritz]

13 hours ago, Penelope said:

NM double post

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Fritz
double posting

[Pen]

4 hours ago, Fritz said:

From the article:

At this point in time, there is no secure basis to assign relative probabilities to the natural-accident hypothesis and the laboratory-accident hypothesis.

Nevertheless, there are three lines of circumstantial evidence that are worth noting.

Proceed, Doctor.

First, the outbreak occurred in Wuhan, a city of 11 million persons that does not contain horseshoe-bat colonies, that is tens of kilometers
from, and that is outside the flight range of, the nearest known horseshoe-bat colonies.  Furthermore, the outbreak occurred at a time of year when horseshoe bats are in hibernation and do not leave colonies

 Another one.

Second, the outbreak occurred in Wuhan, on the doorstep of the laboratory that conducts the world’s largest research project on horseshoe bat viruses, that has the world’s largest collection of horseshoe-bat viruses, and that possessed and worked with the world’s closest sequenced relative of the outbreak virus. The laboratory actively searched for new horseshoe-bat viruses in horseshoe-bat colonies in caves in remote rural areas in Yunnan province, brought those new horseshoe-bat viruses to Wuhan, and then mass-produced, genetically manipulated, and studied those new horseshoe-bat viruses, year-round, inside Wuhan.

 A remarkable coincidence. The last one?

Third, the bat-SARS-related-coronavirus projects at the Wuhan Institute of Virology used personal protective equipment (usually just gloves; sometimes not even gloves) and biosafety standards (usually just biosafety level 2) that would pose very high risk of infection of field-collection, field-survey, or laboratory staff upon contact with a virus having the transmission properties of SARS-CoV-2.

I found these particularly interesting. From the article: 

 

 

You have said several times that this WHO mission was literally “a charade”.

Yes, its members were willing –and, in at least one case, enthusiastic– participants in disinformation.

The pre-negotiated “Terms of Reference” for the WHO study did not even acknowledge the possibility of a laboratory origin of the virus and did not even mention the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), the Wuhan Center for Disease Control (CDC) or the Wuhan Institute of Biological Products.

Regarding the inspection personnel, at least one member of the WHO mission team, Ecohealth Alliance President Dr. Peter Daszak, seems to have conflicts of interest that should have disqualified him from being part of an investigation of the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic. 

Yes. Daszak was the contractor who funded the laboratory at WIV that potentially was the source of the virus (with subcontracts from $200 million from the US Department of State and $7 million from the US National Institutes of Health), and he was a collaborator and co-author on research projects at the laboratory.

 

...

 

The genome sequence of this virus shows no signatures of human manipulation.

But Dr. Ralph Baric, who is considered the US leading expert in coronavirus, so he probably is the world one, says that is possible to engineer a virus in a lab without leaving a trace of the manipulation.

The fact that the genome sequence of this virus shows no signatures of human manipulation rules out the kinds of gain-of-function (GoF) research that leave signatures. But this does not rule out kinds of GoF research that do not leave signatures

 

[Penelope]

43 minutes ago, Pen said:

The genome sequence of this virus shows no signatures of human manipulation.

But Dr. Ralph Baric, who is considered the US leading expert in coronavirus, so he probably is the world one, says that is possible to engineer a virus in a lab without leaving a trace of the manipulation.

The fact that the genome sequence of this virus shows no signatures of human manipulation rules out the kinds of gain-of-function (GoF) research that leave signatures. But this does not rule out kinds of GoF research that do not leave signatures

 

My understanding is that one kind of signature is a set of nucleotides, unique to the lab or researchers that the virologist would customarily attach to the engineered virus they create to indicate it was their work. So you would expect to see that if it was lab-manipulated, but these are not necessary so they don’t have to be there for it to be a manipulated virus. 

But when he says “do not leave signatures,” it sounds like he means something else by that, more like some obvious genetic signs that things have been spliced and rearranged.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Penelope

[SeaConquest]

Thought you all might want to watch this:

 

[SeaConquest]

More commentary from the scientific community:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01383-3

[SeaConquest]

Twitter thread with preeminent epidemiologist and virologist arguing about the issue, Scroll up and read from the top.

 

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

More commentary from the scientific community:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01383-3

Well, a certain select part of the scientific community. Nature has appeared to be political this past year. 
 

I understand there is need to tread carefully, but I find these protestations of how those who don’t agree should just shut up and stop asking questions to be very anti-scientific. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Penelope

[melmichigan]

From the twitter link it was found in Italy, "SARS-CoV-2 RBD-specific antibodies were detected in 111 of 959 (11.6%) individuals, starting from September 2019 (14%), with a cluster of positive cases (>30%) in the second week of February 2020 and the highest number (53.2%) in Lombardy."  https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755

 

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

More commentary from the scientific community:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01383-3

“Other virologists suggest that such sentiments could lead to more scrutiny of US grants for research projects conducted in China. They point to a coronavirus project run by a US non-profit organization and the WIV that was abruptly suspended last year after the US National Institutes of Health pulled its funding. Without such collaborations, says Andersen, scientists will have difficulty discovering the source of the pandemic.”

 

This is not overly convincing.  It’s a whole list of possible flow on effects that might happen if we investigate the option seriously.  But I think I’m more of a “truth matters even if it hurts” person.  

[mjbucks1]

7 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

From the twitter link it was found in Italy, "SARS-CoV-2 RBD-specific antibodies were detected in 111 of 959 (11.6%) individuals, starting from September 2019 (14%), with a cluster of positive cases (>30%) in the second week of February 2020 and the highest number (53.2%) in Lombardy."  https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755

 

This is so interesting.  I read an article about researches testing donated blood in the US and they found antibodies as early as Dec 2019.  

[Ausmumof3]

There’s a lot of interesting discussion here below this post.  Marc Lipsitch was one of the signatories of the letter in Science calling for investigation.  I followed him for a while for reliable COVID info.  When I was searching for him I came across something from 2014 where he was raising concerns about labs and flu viruses potentially leaking out.

[melmichigan]

20 minutes ago, mjbucks1 said:

This is so interesting.  I read an article about researches testing donated blood in the US and they found antibodies as early as Dec 2019.  

There has since been more corroboration in a skin biopsy performed in Italy in November 2019 that showed the virus. (There was some original questions because of the reliability of antibody tests.) Lombardy had an uptick in severe "pneumonia and flu" the last three months of 2019, and many question how much of that may have been covid. Other European countries have found evidence of the virus prior to their official first cases.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by melmichigan

[Pen]

5 hours ago, Penelope said:

My understanding is that one kind of signature is a set of nucleotides, unique to the lab or researchers that the virologist would customarily attach to the engineered virus they create to indicate it was their work. So you would expect to see that if it was lab-manipulated, but these are not necessary so they don’t have to be there for it to be a manipulated virus. 

But when he says “do not leave signatures,” it sounds like he means something else by that, more like some obvious genetic signs that things have been spliced and rearranged.

the latter is the way I read it 

[Fritz]

20 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

Twitter thread with preeminent epidemiologist and virologist arguing about the issue, Scroll up and read from the top.

 

From the interview with Dr. Ebright:

Regarding the inspection personnel, at least one member of the WHO mission team, Ecohealth Alliance President Dr. Peter Daszak, seems to have conflicts of interest that should have disqualified him from being part of an investigation of the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Yes. Daszak was the contractor who funded the laboratory at WIV that potentially was the source of the virus (with subcontracts from $200 million from the US Department of State and $7 million from the US National Institutes of Health), and he was a collaborator and co-author on research projects at the laboratory.

Daszak's main interest is likely in CYA.

[Not_a_Number]

19 hours ago, melmichigan said:

From the twitter link it was found in Italy, "SARS-CoV-2 RBD-specific antibodies were detected in 111 of 959 (11.6%) individuals, starting from September 2019 (14%), with a cluster of positive cases (>30%) in the second week of February 2020 and the highest number (53.2%) in Lombardy."  https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755

 

I’m quite skeptical of this. I wonder if their test was triggered by something else.

Again... we haven’t had trouble knowing when places have serious community transmission of COVID-19, since that has resulted to excess deaths and hospital issues. 10% of random samples having COVID implies high levels of community transmission. There’s no way.

[Penelope]

I thought that Ralph Baric was the most interesting signatory of the open letter in Science. He is one of the foremost corona virologists, and published this paper on a bat Coronaviruses and the creation of a gain of function recombinant virus, along with Dr. Shi of WIV. So if he says it is possible for this to be a lab leak of any sort, I believe it is possible. And he has been on TWiV many times, which is why I knew who he is. https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/?s=Ralph+Baric+

There is also an interview of him in Italian media floating around from last fall, where his answers about the origin are interesting. 

 

[Pen]

20 hours ago, Penelope said:

Well, a certain select part of the scientific community. Nature has appeared to be political this past year. 
 

I understand there is need to tread carefully, but I find these protestations of how those who don’t agree should just shut up and stop asking questions to be very anti-scientific. 

following things from a ME/CSF for some time, Science also has seemed political for many years. And Lancet was discovered as being caught up in what seems to have been only narrowly caught / discovered fraud during Covid.  
 

I find it very sad, but “scientific community” seems to be losing credibility through its own doings.
 

Having a family who was in “scientific community” back at least to early 1900’s  my understanding is that it was political then too, and probably as far back as one can go was political or equivalent of the day (Kopernik for example) but has been worse at some times than others and recent times has been part of the worse. 

[Pen]

1 minute ago, Penelope said:

I thought that Ralph Baric was the most interesting signatory of the open letter in Science. He is one of the foremost corona virologists, and published this paper on a bat Coronaviruses and the creation of a gain of function recombinant virus, along with Dr. Shi of WIV. So if he says it is possible for this to be a lab leak of any sort, I believe it is possible. And he has been on TWiV many times, which is why I knew who he is. https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/?s=Ralph+Baric+

There is also an interview of him in Italian media floating around from last fall, where his answers about the origin are interesting. 

 

Ralph Baric afaik taught most other people directly or indirectly in the viral genetic manipulation and gain of function type fields, including visiting Chinese scientists who learned from him. 

[Penelope]

Here’s the video with English subtitles where needed.

 

[Fritz]

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2021/06/03/how_fact-checkers_mishandled_the_covid-19_origin_debate.html

From the article:

The lab-leak theory’s newfound credibility is due in part to reporting by Nicholas Wade, a former science reporter at the New York Times. Wade, who was cited in PolitiFact’s May explainer on the virus’s origins, wrote a lengthy piece in Medium on May 2 arguing that media claims of a “scientific consensus” on the natural origin of the virus relied on questionable sources. He contended that two scientific groups’ statements – one in The Lancet and another in Nature spearheaded by Dr. Kristian Andersen – were taken as evidence of a scientific “consensus” but were “not at first examined as critically as they should have been.” 

“The [Peter] Daszak and Andersen letters were really political, not scientific statements, yet were amazingly effective,” Wade wrote. “Articles in the mainstream press repeatedly stated that a consensus of experts had ruled lab escape out of the question or extremely unlikely. Their authors relied for the most part on the Daszak and Andersen letters, failing to understand the yawning gaps in their arguments.”

The Lancet statement, which denounced “conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin” and declared its signatories had “no competing interests,” was in fact riddled with undisclosed conflicts of interest that raise questions about the impartiality of its signatories. 

As I said before CYA in action not science. Absolutely shameful! 

[KSera]

I have no idea what will eventually be decided about origins, if anything, and have no vested interest in one theory being true over another. That said, I’ve been seeing a lot of frustration this week that the media is overemphasizing the likelihood that this was a lab leak beyond what the evidence so far supports. There is support for the possibility to be fully investigated, but the overall suggestion seems to be that the media has made it sound like this is much more likely than it actually is. 

[KSera]

22 minutes ago, Plum said:

What would be the reason for the media to flip 180 degrees on this?

They completely dismissed it before and now they are overemphasizing the likelihood beyond the facts. Why?

I don’t know. Clicks? Erring in the direction of equal weight to both “sides” even if both sides don’t have equal evidence 🤷‍♀️? I really don’t know because the origin stuff hasn’t been an area that I pay close attention to. While important for future prevention, it doesn’t seem to have any relevance to me at all, so I haven’t read in depth on it. I’ll start trying to pay more attention and I’ll come back and update if I see something interesting relating to this.

[catz]

39 minutes ago, Plum said:

What would be the reason for the media to flip 180 degrees on this?

They completely dismissed it before and now they are overemphasizing the likelihood beyond the facts. Why?

Generating clicks and views and money.  As always.  And as always, until there is a complete investigation (which I am really wondering could happen without Chinese government interference regardless), we should take all the editorial and click bait about it with a grain of salt.  And I have zero feeling either way which way it would go.  

[Penelope]

I think it’s two things. One, it’s embarrassing for media to get caught with their pants down, so to speak, on taking previous vehement statements from a relatively small group of scientists as being scientific fact, and reporting them as such. So now they are going back and changing sentences in reports from last year to make it seem like they didn’t dismiss it out of hand. They even had “fact checks” about it. It just illustrates the problem with fact checks for which facts are few, and that depend as much on opinion as on fact. 
 

Journalists aren’t always the sharpest tools and are easily manipulated by forces bigger than they are individually. It’s happened with WMD’s, Russian collusion, among other issues.

The second thing is more obvious. The pandemic is fading in the US, there are no immediate upcoming elections, and they want our attention back. 
Unless something else comes up, the next big thing will probably be UFO/UAP’s once people are not clicking on lab leak anymore.

[Pen]

On 5/26/2021 at 5:27 PM, Plum said:

I hadn't thought of that. However, I would think that if they did have advance research, China's vaccine would be much more effective than it actually is. 
 

maybe it is comparatively better than you realize

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020/05/16/did-the-oxford-covid-vaccine-work-in-monkeys-not-really/

 

and then issues with above type vaccines (the AZ discussed in article — and May apply to the other DNA and mRNA type ones also where more information is still needed) include:

 

that “vaccinated” people may be reservoirs for creating deadlier mutations: 

 

https://www.livescience.com/51682-vaccines-evolve-deadlier-viruses.html

Many animal vaccines are known as leaky vaccines, which means they reduce symptoms but people can still be infected by the viruses. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Pen

[Fritz]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

What would be the reason for the media to flip 180 degrees on this?

They completely dismissed it before and now they are overemphasizing the likelihood beyond the facts. Why?

Could Tony Fauci's emails coming out prompt the reversal?

[Pen]

12 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Could Tony Fauci's emails coming out prompt the reversal?

That is what I would think the most likely reason. 
 

ETA

Including the one from Kristian Andersen from early 2020 where KA reveals that there are small sections of the genome that look engineered.  
 

I expect the information coming from others that apparently reveal that Fauci knew that asymptomatic transmission was not a problem and that we should not have had lockdowns etc will also find their way directly or indirectly into msm eventually 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Pen

[KSera]

50 minutes ago, KSera said:

I’ll start trying to pay more attention and I’ll come back and update if I see something interesting relating to this.

Well, that didn’t take long, lol. I just read this article that was published today. It’s written by two experts in this field, not by journalists. One is a virologist and the other molecular microbiologist and immunologist who studies the origin and evolution of viral genes. I thought I gave a good summary of where we are now and understanding origins, it seems like the main take away is that wherever it originated, it is almost surely not human manipulated. 
 

We may never know where the virus came from. But evidence still suggests nature.

[SeaConquest]

Pen, please stop spreading anti-vax misinformation on this board. I cannot believe the admins are allowing this -- especially in the threads that ask for experiences with vaccines. You don't even belong in those threads. Kristian Anderson does not say what you think he does. At all. He is actually making fun of people with your interpretation of the very emails you are mentioning in this thread. 

https://twitter.com/K_G_Andersen/status/1400237896532066311/photo/1

He has never supported the lab leak theory. They looked at it as a possibility, as you should do as a scientist, and could not support it because there was not evidence to do so. The emails show that they took the possibility seriously.

Scroll to the top of the thread and read down:

The evidence still points to nature:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by SeaConquest

[KSera]

What is the reason some people are so personally invested in wanting it to turn out this came from a lab leak? 

[Penelope]

31 minutes ago, KSera said:

What is the reason some people are so personally invested in wanting it to turn out this came from a lab leak? 

Tribalism? 

I would put the same question about those who are so invested in wanting it NOT to be. 
Different folks who know seem to say there isn’t strong evidence either way.

I don’t understand the assumption that scientists cannot lie, have conflicts of interest, or be biased in any way. Not saying anyone here is saying that, just something I’ve noticed. 

I don’t think that posting about it means anyone is personally invested either way. (Shrug)

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Including the one from Kristian Andersen from early 2020 where KA reveals that there are small sections of the genome that look engineered.  
 

I expect the information coming from others that apparently reveal that Fauci knew that asymptomatic transmission was not a problem and that we should not have had lockdowns etc will also find their way directly or indirectly into msm eventually 

I think that the emails have to be considered in context of the timeline in which things were studied, known, announced, discussed. They were written over a time period where the situation was rapidly evolving, also during which there were many discussions being had, among different people and organizations, that are not even referenced in the emails.

[KSera]

41 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Tribalism? 

I would put the same question about those who are so invested in wanting it NOT to be. 
Different folks who know seem to say there isn’t strong evidence either way.

I haven’t actually seen much of the reverse in this particular case (certainly I see it from both sides on other issues). In this thread, it seems to be mostly people who don’t have an opinion either way, and a smaller number who seem eager to prove it’s from a lab, or preferably, manipulated and from a lab. Maybe I’m reading their tone wrong. I’ve certainly seen a contingent of Twitter folks who are clearly invested in wanting to prove it’s a lab leak from China. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by KSera

[SeaConquest]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

I haven’t actually seen much of the reverse in this particular case (certainly I see it from both sides on other issues). In this thread, it seems to be mostly people who don’t have an opinion either way, and a smaller number who seem eager to prove it’s from a lab, or preferably, manipulated and from a lab. Maybe I’m reading their tone wrong. I’ve certainly seen a contingent of Twitter folks who are clearly invested in wanting to prove it’s a lab leak from China. 

I just want misinformation to stop. It's literally killing people every day, and I am tired of watching healthcare professionals risk their lives and burn themselves out taking care of stupid people who won't listen to experts that have devoted themselves to trying to cure disease, prevent illness, and save their ungrateful lives.

My sister came down with Covid this past week, despite my repeated warnings to get vaccinated because B117 was dominant in CA looking for unvaxed hosts. She didn't listen because "my freedom" and anti-vax, crunchy bs. Not only did she get sick, her kids got sick, people at her church got sick, people at the wedding where she did the flowers got sick, people at the kids' school got sick, and who knows who else. All because of her stupidity. I offer to fly up and take care of her, but she prefers to play the victim and turns down the help so she can whine about being alone and unsupported later. So yeah, I am sick of this crap. The misinformation has infected our homeschooling community to such an extent that it's really hard to make friendships anymore. It's insidious and I am over it. Lab leak, no lab leak. I don't care. Just don't spread gossip and half-truths.    

[GailV]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

What is the reason some people are so personally invested in wanting it to turn out this came from a lab leak? 

This isn't everybody's reason for wanting a lab leak, but one possibility is:

If it's a lab leak it happened because humans are running the show and have control over nature. We have agency.  It would probably not have happened if it weren't for bad humans.

If it's just a random act of nature, then it's just random stuff that happens in the universe that humans don't control. Which is scary to some people because it's a reminder that we could all suffer and drop dead any moment willy-nilly regardless of what we do or don't do.

 

[bookbard]

5 hours ago, GailV said:

If it's a lab leak it happened because humans are running the show and have control over nature. We have agency.  It would probably not have happened if it weren't for bad humans.

If it's just a random act of nature, then it's just random stuff that happens in the universe that humans don't control. Which is scary to some people because it's a reminder that we could all suffer and drop dead any moment willy-nilly regardless of what we do or don't do.

Yes, this is very well put. 

I kind of get the instinct to blame. When I stub my toe, my instinct is to growl at the next person I see! But it doesn't make my toe hurt less, nor stop me stubbing it next time. 

I think part of why Covid has been so scary is that we imagined something miraculous occuring if a pandemic happened. Those boffins would engineer a cure within weeks, or we'd all work together to make a better world, or we'd at least be totally organised re toilet paper. But it wasn't like that. So what happens next time? We've all become a bit more cynical. 

[Fritz]

7 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I just want misinformation to stop. It's literally killing people every day, and I am tired of watching healthcare professionals risk their lives and burn themselves out taking care of stupid people who won't listen to experts that have devoted themselves to trying to cure disease, prevent illness, and save their ungrateful lives.

My sister came down with Covid this past week, despite my repeated warnings to get vaccinated because B117 was dominant in CA looking for unvaxed hosts. She didn't listen because "my freedom" and anti-vax, crunchy bs. Not only did she get sick, her kids got sick, people at her church got sick, people at the wedding where she did the flowers got sick, people at the kids' school got sick, and who knows who else. All because of her stupidity. I offer to fly up and take care of her, but she prefers to play the victim and turns down the help so she can whine about being alone and unsupported later. So yeah, I am sick of this crap. The misinformation has infected our homeschooling community to such an extent that it's really hard to make friendships anymore. It's insidious and I am over it. Lab leak, no lab leak. I don't care. Just don't spread gossip and half-truths.    

BSN here who has taken care of many Covid-19 patients. Who has not missed one freaking day of work during this entire pandemic. I have a preference for no cover ups, no shutting down investigations into the origins of this pandemic! Just the truth would be nice!!

Edited June 5, 2021 by Fritz

[Ausmumof3]

17 hours ago, KSera said:

What is the reason some people are so personally invested in wanting it to turn out this came from a lab leak? 

I’m not personally invested in it being a lab leak I don’t think.  I am personally cranky about the covering up that seems to have gone on whether from lab or natural source.  And I find it pretty hard to look past the coincidence of where it first turned up. 
 

But even before Covid was on the radar people were talking about the likelihood of a pandemic at some point and maybe if it wasn’t covid it would have been something else.  Pandemic seems to be as much about the conditions and manner of living as it is the specific virus or bacteria that causes it. 

[Pen]

17 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I just want misinformation to stop. It's literally killing people every day, and I am tired of watching healthcare professionals risk their lives and burn themselves out taking care of stupid people who won't listen to experts that have devoted themselves to trying to cure disease, prevent illness, and save their ungrateful lives.

My sister came down with Covid this past week, despite my repeated warnings to get vaccinated because B117 was dominant in CA looking for unvaxed hosts. She didn't listen because "my freedom" and anti-vax, crunchy bs. Not only did she get sick, her kids got sick, people at her church got sick, people at the wedding where she did the flowers got sick, people at the kids' school got sick, and who knows who else. All because of her stupidity. I offer to fly up and take care of her, but she prefers to play the victim and turns down the help so she can whine about being alone and unsupported later. So yeah, I am sick of this crap. The misinformation has infected our homeschooling community to such an extent that it's really hard to make friendships anymore. It's insidious and I am over it. Lab leak, no lab leak. I don't care. Just don't spread gossip and half-truths.    

I am not sure I understand this.

It sounds like you are saying that your sister somehow (apparently not specified) caught CV and then spread it to many other people, some like her children where there would presumably be close and long duration contact, (Eta- and then did she spread it to people at the children’s school or did the children spread it there?), others like at church presumably with less contact than at home, and some seemingly with very little close personal contact including from the surfaces of flowers she had arranged? 
 

It sounds like she must have been a “superspreader” which we have heard some instances of from the start — but this is the first story I have heard of with flowers touched or breathed on by one person being a source of spread to others.  How many people got sick from the flowers she arranged and how close was their contact to the flowers?  And indoor or outdoor wedding ? 
 

I want to fully believe you, yet  I am personally wondering whether perhaps in your anger and frustration with your sister and others who think and behave differently than you do if there is any element of gossip and half-truths to this story itself or if it is all thoroughly verified.  
 

ETA: including I am wondering if you have verified that your sister was the original source of all the spread and that there were not also others sick—perhaps some other source besides the flowers for example to infect the wedding group. 
 

And btw, how sick are all these people?

 

 I am sorry for your family’s illness btw and hope they and their contacts get well soon .  
 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Pen

[Fritz]

20 hours ago, KSera said:

What is the reason some people are so personally invested in wanting it to turn out this came from a lab leak? 

No "personal investment in wanting lab leak" here. I want the full truth of the origins of this pandemic to be known, whichever way that turns out. I have worked as a RN through out this pandemic. I think we in the medical field, who have put our lives on the line day after day, deserve the truth. And from that truth what will be done to prevent it from happening again. If you read back through this thread I think you will see much more effort to shut down any debate coming from those that want to believe the zoonosis explanation. Why are they so interested in shutting down any debate with their "No, just stop"??

I am fine with zoonosis being the origin. Let's see the proof. I just want the truth. It matters going forward where this pandemic came from. We need to know so we can do everything in our power to prevent it from happening again. Over 3.5million people have died from this pandemic. To just decide it is not important to know where it came from or to just say we'll never know and blow it off is unfathomable to me!

A couple of articles about the importance of knowing the truth and why scientists have a vested interest in all of this mess.

https://unherd.com/2021/06/why-we-should-welcome-the-lab-leak-theory/

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-lab-leak-theory-inside-the-fight-to-uncover-covid-19s-origins

And let me just add, having seen the fear in my coworkers eyes (and experienced that fear myself) when we were briefed on what our policy and procedure (what a huge unfunny clusterf that was) was for Ebola when that was in the news, and having seen and felt the same fear this year. I know more than a few nurses that have said if we don't make every effort to find the truth of the origins and do what we can to prevent it from happening again and it happens again we are out. So those of you among us who don't think it matters what the truth is and spent this time clutching your pearls and handwringing over Buffy's lack of play dates, or where your next roll of tp was coming from, or what your next Netflix binge would be now is the time for you to enroll in nursing school so you'll be ready to take the helm! You can have it. I'll take my turn at binging Netflix and getting paid to stay home!

Edited June 5, 2021 by Fritz

[HeartString]

10 hours ago, bookbard said:

Yes, this is very well put. 

I kind of get the instinct to blame. When I stub my toe, my instinct is to growl at the next person I see! But it doesn't make my toe hurt less, nor stop me stubbing it next time. 

I think part of why Covid has been so scary is that we imagined something miraculous occuring if a pandemic happened. Those boffins would engineer a cure within weeks, or we'd all work together to make a better world, or we'd at least be totally organised re toilet paper. But it wasn't like that. So what happens next time? We've all become a bit more cynical. 

To be fair, the vaccine was found really quickly.  Most of the time has been spent doing trials to show safety and efficacy. That all takes time and I don’t know how to get around that.  I suppose if COVID had been more like Ebola with a 50% death rate we might have been willing to skip the safety trials and just take our chances with the vaccine.  Which it turns out would have been ok in this situation, but that’s not guaranteed to be the case. 
 

I agree with you though, I had expected better of us in the face of a pandemic.  I think COVID was just low level enough that it was able to be politicized instead.   It could be denied away in the minds of many people.  It might have been different if people were literally dropping dead in the streets like a horror movie.  

Edited June 5, 2021 by HeartString

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Fritz said:

Why are they so interested in shutting down any debate with their "No, just stop"??

I am fine with zoonosis being the origin. Let's see the proof. I just want the truth. It matters going forward where this pandemic came from. We need to know so we can do everything in our power to prevent it from happening again. Over 3.5million people have died from this pandemic. To just decide it is not important to know where it came from or to just say we'll never know and blow it off is unfathomable to me!

A couple of articles about the importance of knowing the truth and why scientists have a vested interest in all of this mess.

https://unherd.com/2021/06/why-we-should-welcome-the-lab-leak-theory/

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-lab-leak-theory-inside-the-fight-to-uncover-covid-19s-origins

And let me just add, having seen the fear in my coworkers eyes (and experienced that fear myself) when we were briefed on what our policy and procedure (what a huge unfunny clusterf that was) was for Ebola when that was in the news, and having seen and felt the same fear this year. I know more than a few nurses that have said if we don't make every effort to find the truth of the origins and do what we can to prevent it from happening again and it happens again we are out. So those of you among us who don't think it matters what the truth is and spent this time clutching your pearls and handwringing over Buffy's lack of play dates, or where your next roll of tp was coming from, or what your next Netflix binge would be now is the time for you to enroll in nursing school so you'll be ready to take the helm! You can have it. I'll take my turn at binging Netflix and getting paid to stay home!

The “no, just stop” was from one person directed at one specific other person who continually posts false information. The general consensus I’m seeing is that people do want to know the source, if at all possible. I shared an article posted in the Washington post about this yesterday. They just don’t want people jumping to conclusions prematurely. Last night, I saw lots more articles with that same general message: let’s investigate to figure this out, but so far we don’t know the source and have no evidence of a lab leak. 
 

I am truly very sorry about what nurses in particular have faced this year, it’s been awful, and I have recognized that throughout this whole thing. I think your final paragraph is a little unfair, as I don’t think that describes many, if any, of the people here. 

[Fritz]

https://unherd.com/2021/06/beijings-useful-idiots/

Posting this in two similar threads dealing with the importance of truth in medicine and science.

“Nature and The Lancet played important roles in enabling, encouraging, and enforcing the false narrative that science evidence indicates Sars-CoV-2 had a natural-spillover origin points and the false narrative that this was the scientific consensus”.

Or as another well-placed observer put it: “The game seems to be for Nature and The Lancet to rush non-peer revised correspondences to set the tone and then delay critical papers and responses.”

But why would they do this? This is where things become even murkier. Allegations swirl that it was not down to editorial misjudgement, but something more sinister: a desire to appease China for commercial reasons. The Financial Times revealed four years ago that debt-laden Springer Nature, the German group that publishes Nature, was blocking access in China to hundreds of academic articles mentioning subjects deemed sensitive by Beijing such as Hong Kong, Taiwan or Tibet. China is also spending lavishly around the world to win supremacy in science — which includes becoming the biggest national sponsor of open access journals published by both Springer Nature and Elsevier, owner of The Lancet.