"Woke" culture

[Moonhawk]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

How about “please don’t touch me,” plus start a diary. If it repeats take it up chain of command or similar. 

 

Sure, that's fine. Your idea is in line with my philosophy; I am not trying to say anything about how to deal with emotional aftermath, just the idea of being confident enough to know the boundaries and take action. Your action plan does both. 

[Moonhawk]

3 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

Well, I think so.  A man can "side hug" me or dance with me and touch my waist (even my father or brother could do this) and it doesn't seem overly sexual, regardless of my waist's location.  If a man actually "cups" my breast, that's a different thing entirely.  

Again, I think the man repeatedly touching the young woman's waist was inappropriate and wrong.

The point being: your brother and father touching your waist, assuming you have a family culture that allows casual touching, is not sexual. If in a workplace she is uncomfortable and is being touched and is perceiving it as a sexual touch, a waist touch is not "okay-er" than breasts. The underlying sexual touch and violation of her bodily autonomy is the issue, not the place. 

eta: I think waist touching is a much more subtle move because hands are usually down at that level anyway. It's much easier to point out that hands are at a higher level so it's easier to "flag" as wrong. But just because it's easier to cover up doesn't mean it should be easier to dismiss. You can say it's a more nefarious thing because of the "oh but it may have been an accident" factor.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Moonhawk

[DoraBora]

1 minute ago, Moonhawk said:

The point being: your brother and father touching your waist, assuming you have a family culture that allows casual touching, is not sexual. If in a workplace she is uncomfortable and is being touched and is perceiving it as a sexual touch, a waist touch is not worse than breasts. The underlying sexual touch and violation of her bodily autonomy is the issue, not the place. 

And doubtless, this man's touch was flirty and sexual in nature.  I'm not denying that, but I still don't think it's assault.

If my dd had experienced this and wanted to speak to a woman counselor, I'd support her completely, though I'd try to help her avoid feeling like a victim.

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Home'scool said:

 I'm tired of hearing how much debt their generation is in, how for the first time their generation is on the path to do worse than their parents, etc. ..... are you kidding me? 

It is certainly true if you look at the trajectory since the depression. NO, they are not the first ever who will be worse off than their parents, but they are the first generation in quite a while for whom the steady upward trajectory will not be reality. Throwing the depression at them accomplishes nothing.

[DoraBora]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

"Please don't touch me" ? I should say please to someone who violates me body ? My gut level response was always anger and wanting to hurt. I used to wear the highest heels I could walk in and stomp on people's feet who groped me. I used to swing my elbows and hit which often connected in an uncomfortable place, pinched the hand that groped me,  thrown my chappals at catcalls and walked barefoot sometimes on crudy roads because it made me angry. I would have hit them but in some places it means getting acid thrown on you. But I could never stop fighting and being polite to someone who assaulted me ? Forget it ! 

 

I'm so sorry you've experienced these things.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

"Please don't touch me" ? I should say please to someone who violates me body ? My gut level response was always anger and wanting to hurt. I used to wear the highest heels I could walk in and stomp on people's feet who groped me. I used to swing my elbows and hit which often connected in an uncomfortable place, pinched the hand that groped me,  thrown my chappals at catcalls and walked barefoot sometimes on crudy roads because it made me angry. I would have hit them but in some places it means getting acid thrown on you. But I could never stop fighting and being polite to someone who assaulted me ? Forget it ! 

 

Yeah, ‘please’ stopped being my response very early on. An icy, “My mom’s/grandma’s a lawyer” or “lawsuit much?” are very effective here. I have trained my kids (male and female) on both.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, Home'scool said:

She wants to go to a therapist but it has to be a woman. 

The bolded sounds like you're inwardly rolling your eyes. It makes perfect sense to want a female counselor if she wants to discuss her feeling of being inappropriately touched by a man. 

I would actually be concerned whether the episode she related to you wasn't just the tip of an iceberg and she had unpleasant experiences before that and was triggered by this. It is very possible her strong reaction is not actually about the recent occurrence (she may not even realize), and if that were the case, speaking to a therapist is entirely appropriate.

ETA: Not feeling safe could be her response to you being dismissive. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by regentrude

[happi duck]

If someone doesn't feel safe in their home please listen and discuss.  Telling that person they can leave might shut them up but won't make them feel safer.

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

"Please don't touch me" ? I should say please to someone who violates me body ? My gut level response was always anger and wanting to hurt. 

"Take your f*ing hands off me!" 

Better?

[EKS]

29 minutes ago, Pen said:

I think it is in part by same author as the Impossible Conversations book I have been recommending.

That is correct.

[Pen]

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

"Please don't touch me" ? I should say please to someone who violates me body ? My gut level response was always anger and wanting to hurt. I used to wear the highest heels I could walk in and stomp on people's feet who groped me. I used to swing my elbows and hit which often connected in an uncomfortable place, pinched the hand that groped me,  thrown my chappals at catcalls and walked barefoot sometimes on crudy roads because it made me angry. I would have hit them but in some places it means getting acid thrown on you. But I could never stop fighting and being polite to someone who assaulted me ? Forget it ! 

 

 

Not for breasts as you described of yourself. For breasts I would leave off any please. 

 

Yes for a touch to waist  from a co-worker. Waist despite proximity to genitals is not automatically considered particularly sexual location in typical US culture in my experience.  Hands, arms, shoulders, back including waist area, are not necessarily off touch limits—though exact way it happened could make a difference, including circumstances, proximity of the man, quality and length of touch, etc.      

ETA: Another approach can be to ask oneself if it would be ok if a man were touched that way.  A lot of men will pat back, shoulders, usher another man through a doorway with a physical gesture by lower back / waist ...  so it really depends.

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Pen

[prairiewindmomma]

IMO the flip side of "I don't feel safe here" is "I think you're way off base with your ideas".

The first implies that they can't express their ideas and have those valued as being legitimate ideas. 

The second implies disagreement, perhaps with a healthy side of moral judgment.

IME, younger folks say the first more than the other when perhaps they should be saying the latter in cross-generational conversation.  Personally, I'm teaching my kids not to be apologetic for what they think.  They should be able to argue the points and withstand cross-examination, and they shouldn't immediately back down from what they think or feel.

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Plum said:

Assault implies some type of violence. 

Not sexual assault though. 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

Yes for a touch to waist  from a co-worker. Waist despite proximity to genitals is not automatically considered particularly sexual location in typical US culture in my experience.  Hands, arms, shoulders, back including waist area, are not necessarily off touch limits—though exact way it happened could make a difference, including circumstances, proximity of the man, quality and length of touch, etc.      

But aside from a (pre-pandemic) handshake, neither of those are appropriate in the workplace, with very few exceptions (physical therapist demonstrating a technique). 

[prairiewindmomma]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Not for breasts as you described of yourself. For breasts I would leave off any please. 

 

Yes for a touch to waist  from a co-worker. Waist despite proximity to genitals is not automatically considered particularly sexual location in typical US culture in my experience.  Hands, arms, shoulders, back including waist area, are not necessarily off touch limits—though exact way it happened could make a difference, including circumstances, proximity of the man, quality and length of touch, etc.      

Really? Twenty years ago it was pretty standard in going through Employment Law to say "no touching" anywhere, anytime, in the workplace save providing emergency first aid and introductory handshakes.  In the CLEs I've been to in the last twenty years, this idea has only been strengthened. I don't think waist touching is typical US culture anymore, and hasn't been for quite a while.

[Amy Gen]

I have daughters about your daughters ages and only one of them is super fragile. Here is one recent example: we were watching an animated movie as a family. My 14 year old was going on about how much she hated a character. My 22 year old got so offended that she huffed off and didn’t watch the rest of the movie with us because that was a beloved character of hers. Now my 14 year old probably knew that and may have intentionally been pushing her buttons, but that that is kind of expected from a teenager in my house. No one over reacted to my older kids when they acted that way at 14. 
 

Personally, I can just let it slide. She did try to get my 11 year old to act like that, by coddling her about nonexistent slights. I put my foot down and said we are not going to allow my 11 year old to become so sensitive that no one wants to be around her because it just isn’t worth walking on eggshells all of the time. 
 

None of this hurts my feelings, but I see how my daughter is being hurt by her own actions. She was labeled “emotionally abusive” in her friend group because she told her roommate, “If I were you, I’d quit watching YouTube videos and study for your test tomorrow.” I was such a good mother and resisted saying, “How does it feel to be the bad guy for nothing but an causal comment.” 
 

I really don’t see this as being universal in their generation. My 26 year old is the toughest person I know. My hope is that my other adult daughter gets more mature and resilient friends when she graduates next month and gets out into the work force. I can’t help but have hope that she will grow out of some of these behaviors. She does have a counselor that she talks to every week, and I get a big boost when her counselor tells her something and she says, “That is exactly what my mom told me.” 

[prairiewindmomma]

I see Regentrude and I had the same thought process. 🙂

[Home'scool]

Quote

If someone doesn't feel safe in their home please listen and discuss.  Telling that person they can leave might shut them up but won't make them feel safer.

We were discussing the two candidates for presidency. When she could not get me to vote her way, or to not vote at all, that is when she said she does not feel safe. So we were discussing things. It was because I would not agree with her. It was not a case of just telling her to shut up. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Home'scool

[Pen]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Really? Twenty years ago it was pretty standard in going through Employment Law to say "no touching" anywhere, anytime, in the workplace save providing emergency first aid and introductory handshakes.  In the CLEs I've been to in the last twenty years, this idea has only been strengthened. I don't think waist touching is typical US culture anymore, and hasn't been for quite a while.

 

Oh well, I am in rural Oregon. We may be behind the times!

 

[Carol in Cal.]

It's a really weird combo of fragile and very screamingly aggressive.  Quite the opposite of tolerant, obviously.  

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

We were discussing the two candidates for presidency. When she could not get me to vote her way, or to not vote at all, that is when she said she does not feel safe. So we were discussing things. It was because I would not agree with her

 

That sounds close to illegal attempt to influence someone else’s vote.

 

[Ausmumof3]

Are you 100pc sure that waist touching is what happened ?  It could have been something more but she’s not comfy being explicit about talking about it.  And in terms of counselling I totally understand wanting a woman particularly in relation to something of a sexual assault nature!  There’s nothing unreasonable about that.   It’s also possible there’s history of something she hasn’t told you that’s making that all worse.  Personally I’m all for dealing with creepy sleazy behaviour in the hope that our kids don’t have to put up with the rubbish we did. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

But aside from a (pre-pandemic) handshake, neither of those are appropriate in the workplace, with very few exceptions (physical therapist demonstrating a technique). 

THIS. I think a lot of older women are predisposed to downplay inappropriate behavior.

[Home'scool]

Quote

Are you 100pc sure that waist touching is what happened ?  It could have been something more but she’s not comfy being explicit about talking about it.  And in terms of counselling I totally understand wanting a woman particularly in relation to something of a sexual assault nature!  There’s nothing unreasonable about that.   It’s also possible there’s history of something she hasn’t told you that’s making that all worse.  Personally I’m all for dealing with creepy sleazy behaviour in the hope that our kids don’t have to put up with the rubbish we did. 

She is pretty open with me so I am assuming that the waist touching was all it was. It was in a hallway when no one was around -- I am sure it was very intimidating and upsetting. He also spent the rest of the night saying things to all the men on their team "well, we know women take forever to do anything so that is why our projects are late" or something to that nature. He was obviously just a drunk ass.

She wants to go to therapy for a variety of reasons, not just because of what happened above. She is having a terrible time finding someone that takes her insurance and is available with all the COVID stuff. So the fact that she has limited herself to women only is affecting her ability to go to therapy. But she is adamant it has to be a women. 

 

[BakersDozen]

Quote

I'm tired of hearing how much debt their generation is in, how for the first time their generation is on the path to do worse than their parents, etc. ..... are you kidding me? 

I agree. I won't throw the Depression at my dc but I do tell them that the mindset I see in young people is that of immediate gratification and attainment of things which shouldn't be expected while in their 20s. I cannot believe how many times I read or hear complaints from those in their early 20s about how they can't afford a home yet they have chosen a career path or made other life choices that don't exactly lead to a solid financial foundation. Give it 10 more years or so of working hard, saving, building credit (GAH! that issue!!), then think about buying a home. College expenses? Yep, super expensive. But access to college has never been easier or more affordable with the on-line world, dual/concurrent enrollment, tuition reimbursement programs, etc.

I'm 100% OK if young people don't do as well as their parents at least initially. A upward trajectory may not be in the cards for young people but that isn't necessarily a bad thing depending on the slope of the trajectory. What I see is a generation that expects an immediate "shoot to the top" and a level of living that doesn't jive with their financial place in life (low/no credit, entry level jobs, no savings, etc.). Expectations are, imo, the tripping point for young people (and others of other ages as well) - too high, too much, too soon.

OP, just last night one of my dc came over and we had a lovely time of hearing how hard his life is and life is so unfair and on and on. He's also "found Jesus" so now we also get to hear all of our mistakes and shortcomings, how we don't measure up to other Christians. He cried. We listened, we kept our tempers in check - calm voices, no interrupting, etc. But we didn't coddle him nor did we agree to tiptoe around certain topics. Our dc know our doors are always open, the lights are on, we answer the phone at any time and we don't push our own views on them. But we don't allow them or anyone to be dramatic or offensive in our home nor dictate what conversation topics can/cannot happen. If they don't feel safe despite these measures then nothing is keeping them here.

I'm typing this while trying to direct lunch prep and fend off a toddler...sorry if something didn't make sense.

ETA: Re "finding Jesus" - We are thrilled that our ds is seeking/asking questions. A year ago he declared he knew about God but didn't need God. So this is awesome but at the same time we braced ourselves for what we suspected would happen as our newly enlightened son now saw and pointed out all flaws in our family. Religion, politics, financial stuff - we have no issue listening to our dc and will bite back words more than respond out loud. But we won't allow disrespect or offensive speech nor accept blame and shame by those who have barely stepped into the world of adult living and issues yet seem to possess the wisdom of the ages.
🙂

Edited November 5, 2020 by BakersDozen

[Pen]

https://www.wikihow.com/Get-a-Coworker-to-Respect-Your-Personal-Space

 

[Home'scool]

Quote

But we didn't coddle him nor did we agree to tiptoe around certain topics. Our dc know our doors are always open, the lights are on, we answer the phone at any time and we don't push our own views on them. But we don't allow them or anyone to be dramatic or offensive in our home nor dictate what conversation topics can/cannot happen. If they don't feel safe despite these measures then nothing is keeping them here.

Exactly

[regentrude]

12 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

She is pretty open with me so I am assuming that the waist touching was all it was. It was in a hallway when no one was around -- I am sure it was very intimidating and upsetting. He also spent the rest of the night saying things to all the men on their team "well, we know women take forever to do anything so that is why our projects are late" or something to that nature. He was obviously just a drunk ass.

She wants to go to therapy for a variety of reasons, not just because of what happened above. She is having a terrible time finding someone that takes her insurance and is available with all the COVID stuff. So the fact that she has limited herself to women only is affecting her ability to go to therapy. But she is adamant it has to be a women. 

That is harassment and should be reported to HR. Being a drunk ass is no longer an excuse.

"Any" therapist is useless. If she feels she needs a female therapist, respect that. Even then, it may take  awhile to find a suitable fit.
ETA: Would you complain if she were adamant that her gynecologist had to be female? Many women don't feel comfortable with a male GYN. Therapy means making yourself completely vulnerable, to a much larger degree than during a pelvic exam. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by regentrude

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Are you 100pc sure that waist touching is what happened ?  It could have been something more but she’s not comfy being explicit about talking about it.  And in terms of counselling I totally understand wanting a woman particularly in relation to something of a sexual assault nature!  There’s nothing unreasonable about that.   It’s also possible there’s history of something she hasn’t told you that’s making that all worse.  Personally I’m all for dealing with creepy sleazy behaviour in the hope that our kids don’t have to put up with the rubbish we did. 

 

IME the direction is also significant- a short back touch that strayed over waist is different than being face to face and someone reaches out and strokes waist or leaves hand on waist. 

 

[Ausmumof3]

This kind of feels like a thread of downplaying sexual assault right now ... not something I expected to see here to be honest.  
 

I really wouldn’t assume that what she’s told you is all and I don’t think being drunk is any excuse for creepy disgusting behaviour particularly when they were alone.  If she doesn’t figure out how to put a stop to it it will most likely become worse. 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

IME the direction is also significant- a short back touch that strayed over waist is different than being face to face and someone reaches out and strokes waist or leaves hand on waist. 

there is no reason for a "short back touch" between coworkers either

[bolt.]

In this vernacular you should read, "Not safe here." To mean, "Not comfortable being fully vulnerable and transparent here." -- and, honestly, it sounds like you would very much prefer her not to be fully transparent or vulnerable around you.

Maybe you'd rather see the less intensely personal side of her? Is it possible you'd like her to express the also-true side of things: that she is fully capable of handling hard things. Because she probably is. She just wanted her mommy to know that she is having some inner struggles, some pain, and is working through some issues involving the connections between her emotional life and her practical life. (Which is totally normal, and something we all do regularly. We are just accustomed to doing it silently and alone.) She's probably fine keeping her vulnerability to herself. She probably does it 99% of the time.

You will both be happier with a little more (as the psycologists say) differentiation between you. Her saying that you are not 100% "safe" in her eyes is the start of her planning to use a little descresion in what and how she shares things with you. That's all.

[Sneezyone]

True story. My DD has college paid for thanks to DH and I and she came to me, two weeks ago, upset that I hadn’t told her she might have a communal bathroom in college. She declared she didn’t want to go (not an option). She’d seen some kind of YouTube or TV show, I dunno. In any case, she had serious questions (deeply furrowed brows) about how she was supposed to get to/from the shower in nothing but a towel, as is her habit. After laughing myself into a solid ab workout, explaining the mechanics of a bathroom caddy and robe, she skulked away, suitably chastened and embarrassed. I don’t expect I’ll have to say another word on the subject. Definitely no harassment/assault issue but funny nonetheless. Sometimes they just don’t know what they don’t know.

[Pen]

11 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

She is pretty open with me so I am assuming that the waist touching was all it was. It was in a hallway when no one was around -- I am sure it was very intimidating and upsetting. He also spent the rest of the night saying things to all the men on their team "well, we know women take forever to do anything so that is why our projects are late" or something to that nature. He was obviously just a drunk ass.

She wants to go to therapy for a variety of reasons, not just because of what happened above. She is having a terrible time finding someone that takes her insurance and is available with all the COVID stuff. So the fact that she has limited herself to women only is affecting her ability to go to therapy. But she is adamant it has to be a women. 

 

 

That sounds genuinely distressing.  

Maybe she could find a therapist online and widen her choices.

And she should be keeping a record of what was said and done at work. And be prepared to take it up the chain of command.  ETA: or to an outside entity if necessary. If you are in a state that allows audio recordings without others knowing, a recording of conversation where he said “women take forever” etc would be good to have. 

If he is her boss not coworker, then a consultation with a lawyer might be worth having. 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Pen

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

IME the direction is also significant- a short back touch that strayed over waist is different than being face to face and someone reaches out and strokes waist or leaves hand on waist. 

 

In the context of alone in a hallway is also way more inappropriate than at an event with others around.  Much more intimidating.  I do think putting an arm around the waist is sexual though maybe not sexual assault.  I don’t know too many male coworkers that would do that to each other if that makes sense and that’s my standard.  If you wouldn’t do it with a man in the workplace don’t try it with a woman.

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 I don’t know too many male coworkers that would do that to each other if that makes sense and that’s my standard.  If you wouldn’t do it with a man in the workplace don’t try it with a woman.

oh, that's a brilliant way of looking at it! 

[MEmama]

9 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

She is pretty open with me so I am assuming that the waist touching was all it was... He was obviously just a drunk ass.

 

 

1. You have no idea how open she is with you. 
2. This is why she does not feel safe. You are downplaying the situation and excusing an abusers behavior.

I knew at age 9 that my mother was not a safe person when she dismissed my molestation as a pathetic lie so I could get a ride home from the mall instead of taking the bus. I am *thrilled* that young women today have the words and confidence to recognize abuse and call out improper behavior instead of pretending it didn’t happen. 

[Ausmumof3]

18 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

That sounds close to illegal attempt to influence someone else’s vote.

 

Depends on what was said.  If it was directly in reference to sexual assault unfortunately discussing politics could be triggering.  I can’t say more here without crossing a no politics line.   

[Sneezyone]

Yes and no. Agree with the distressing but trying to convince people on an individual level to vote a certain way, or not vote, is entirely legal.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Ausmumof3]

With respect to the money side of things dh and I have had some similar things with a friend that’s a bit younger.  Its hard not to roll the eyes at some of the expectations sometimes so I do relate to that.  On the other hand over the years we’ve realised friend has had to deal with some crazy stuff that we never had to.  But there does seem to be some crazy high life style expectations for some in the 20-30s crowd.  

[Pen]

19 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

She is pretty open with me so I am assuming that the waist touching was all it was. It was in a hallway when no one was around -- I am sure it was very intimidating and upsetting.

This is different than what I had pictured.  Alone in hallway is itself hugely different. 

She does need skills to cope with it. 

Skills will probably help her in a variety of ways.

 

A female friend of my son’s would deal with that by mentioning that she has a karate black belt, but that won’t work for most people.   

Clear statement telling other person to stop. Documentation of event, and in this case, not giving guy a second chance but probably taking it up chain of command right away probably makes sense. 

 

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, Home'scool said:

Masculine toxicity is a common topic.

I think you mean toxic masculinity.

It's good that this is finally a topic.

From wiki:

Quote

The concept of toxic masculinity is used in academic and media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys in patriarchal societies often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying and aggression.

What did you say, " he was just a drunk ass"? Case in point.

Edited November 5, 2020 by regentrude

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

This is different than what I had pictured.  Alone in hallway is itself hugely different. 

She does need skills to cope with it. 

Skills will probably help her in a variety of ways.

 

A female friend of my son’s would deal with that by mentioning that she has a karate black belt, but that won’t work for most people.   

Clear statement telling other person to stop. Documentation of event, and in this case, not giving guy a second chance but probably taking it up chain of command right away probably makes sense. 

 

Although if time and money were available some self defence classes may actually be quite helpful with all the problems here.  They would help her feel stronger and more capable of dealing with problems that arise instead of vulnerable.

[Pen]

13 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

In the context of alone in a hallway is also way more inappropriate than at an event with others around.  Much more intimidating.  I do think putting an arm around the waist is sexual though maybe not sexual assault.  I don’t know too many male coworkers that would do that to each other if that makes sense and that’s my standard.  If you wouldn’t do it with a man in the workplace don’t try it with a woman.

 

I totally agree. 

The circumstances once described in more detail sounded very different than what I had initially pictured happening.

 (What I initially pictured may have been based on dismissive tone. If I were the mom, I would probably call daughter and say, “hey, I think I might not have understood right before about the seriousness of the guy touching you situation ... and I apologize. I think maybe in addition to a therapist you need a plan of action for what to do about it.”) 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

I can tell you as someone who was merely treated in an inappropriate way by a senior professor that it’s profoundly demoralizing and hard to deal with even with no touch involved. It wasn’t assault and I didn’t need therapy, but it was really disturbing. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[fairfarmhand]

8 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

With respect to the money side of things dh and I have had some similar things with a friend that’s a bit younger.  Its hard not to roll the eyes at some of the expectations sometimes so I do relate to that.  On the other hand over the years we’ve realised friend has had to deal with some crazy stuff that we never had to.  But there does seem to be some crazy high life style expectations for some in the 20-30s crowd.  

I've wondered if this happens because people often put off having children until they have established a particular standard of living. So the young people have no memory of watching their parents struggle and work their way up to a more financially comfortable level and assume that mom and dad have "always" had it in one particular way.

So like if a young couple's starter home was a fixer upper that they sold after a few years to buy a nicer home in a nicer neighborhood and THEN they had kids, the kids may assume that "all 20 somethings" start with a house like they grew up in. Even if the kids have heard the parents talk about the starter house and repairing it and sleeping on a mattress on the floor till they saved enough for real furniture, the kids don't  remember it, so in their heads its like it never happened.

I have dealt with messed up expectations with my 20 something daughter. She really has a very narrow view of life because most of her friends make similar amounts of money or more than we do. (upper middle class) She assumes that everyone lives this way, everyone pays for their kids' college (we don't and we thought we were mean), everyone helps their kids buy a car, etc. (except for her mean parents)  Her first job was in a real estate office. She now works in a restaurant, but many of her coworkers are other homeschooled kids whose parents are like us. She was pretty entitled there for a little while. 

My second dd works in a tea shop. Most of her co workers families are not at the financial level that our family is. Many of them work because they have to pay rent to their parents because their parents can't support their adult children without the rent help. Many of her coworkers don't go to college because they can not only not afford tuition, but they have to work full time to make ends meet. My second dd has a much greater appreciation for how hard people have to work to make it, and she knows that she'll have to start at the bottom and work her way up. 

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

I've wondered if this happens because people often put off having children until they have established a particular standard of living. So the young people have no memory of watching their parents struggle and work their way up to a more financially comfortable level and assume that mom and dad have "always" had it in one particular way.

So like if a young couple's starter home was a fixer upper that they sold after a few years to buy a nicer home in a nicer neighborhood and THEN they had kids, the kids may assume that "all 20 somethings" start with a house like they grew up in. Even if the kids have heard the parents talk about the starter house and repairing it and sleeping on a mattress on the floor till they saved enough for real furniture, the kids don't  remember it, so in their heads its like it never happened.

I have dealt with messed up expectations with my 20 something daughter. She really has a very narrow view of life because most of her friends make similar amounts of money or more than we do. (upper middle class) She assumes that everyone lives this way, everyone pays for their kids' college (we don't and we thought we were mean), everyone helps their kids buy a car, etc. (except for her mean parents)  Her first job was in a real estate office. She now works in a restaurant, but many of her coworkers are other homeschooled kids whose parents are like us. She was pretty entitled there for a little while. 

My second dd works in a tea shop. Most of her co workers families are not at the financial level that our family is. Many of them work because they have to pay rent to their parents because their parents can't support their adult children without the rent help. Many of her coworkers don't go to college because they can not only not afford tuition, but they have to work full time to make ends meet. My second dd has a much greater appreciation for how hard people have to work to make it, and she knows that she'll have to start at the bottom and work her way up. 

Yes I suspect that’s a big part of it.  And maybe just a kind of expectation that you can have it all and not enough conversation about choices (not saying that’s the case for your family specifically but with some others I’ve seen).

[klmama]

One of our adult dc has thanked us repeatedly for living beneath our means and teaching them to, as well.  That dc has seen numerous friends really struggle with not knowing how to live cheaply when the parental safety net disappeared.

[fairfarmhand]

2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes I suspect that’s a big part of it.  And maybe just a kind of expectation that you can have it all and not enough conversation about choices (not saying that’s the case for your family specifically but with some others I’ve seen).

Yes, we've had these talks quite a bit. (not sure why they didn't sink in with my oldest but did sink in with my younger kids) Like, one of my dds friends lived in a huge HOA neighborhood with fancy houses and pools and stuff. We talked a lot about how we could live there easily OR we could live in a more modest place out here on the farm with plenty more acreage. 

 

[Ausmumof3]

Just now, fairfarmhand said:

Yes, we've had these talks quite a bit. (not sure why they didn't sink in with my oldest but did sink in with my younger kids) Like, one of my dds friends lived in a huge HOA neighborhood with fancy houses and pools and stuff. We talked a lot about how we could live there easily OR we could live in a more modest place out here on the farm with plenty more acreage. 

 

Lol exact conversation we’ve had here as well!  Yep, your friends have a pool and dedicated lego room and we have a farm.  There’s definitely trade offs.  Thankfully all my kids appreciate the farm lifestyle or I guess that conversation could go poorly.