what does flatten the curve but open up really look like/mean?

[Joker]

51 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Right now, culturally, people are shaming others for not wearing a mask even though we have only theories that it will help.

There is just as much shame and ridicule being thrown at those who wear masks. Everyone needs to stop with the mask shaming and people need to quit acting like it’s one sided. 

[Matryoshka]

2 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

The study you linked was a theoretical model.  "Since little precise quantitative data is available on cultures where masking is prevalent..."  I think it has been discussed fairly well on the boards how models are not the end-all, be-all deciding factor on which to make wide-sweeping policies that, once in place, are *generally not repealed*.  At any given point, how many people have this virus and are protecting others by wearing a mask?  Very few.  I mean, how on Earth did humanity survive this long without everyone wearing properly fitting N95 masks and gloves and hazmat suits all the time?!  The virologists, immunologists, MDs, etc. will get a handle on this just like they have gotten a handle on other diseases.  Culture shapes behavior...well, for most..., no matter if the basis is founded or not.  Which brings me to another point: in America, the legislative branch makes laws.  Mask wearing can be made mandatory by a privately owned business, and people can choose to shop there or not (I know a few people who have not renewed their Costco membership), but in order for it to be a law, Congress must pass it and the President must sign it.  All of this talk about "could" and "should" is theoretical until a study is done using hard data to see whether mask wearing, stratified into various types of masks and proper/improper usage, is statistically significant in decreasing morbidity and mortality.  Until then, wear your mask if you so choose...or don't. 

The rules are a little different when it's a novel disease to a population.  It's estimated that as much as 90% of the Native American population was wiped out by European diseases, most before they'd ever laid eyes on an actual European.  So, a lot of people did not survive.  We're lucky this is just one disease, and that it's not as deadly to us as measles/smallpox etc. was to the Native Americans, and that we actually do have a clue about how different diseases spread.

Quote

Right now, culturally, people are shaming others for not wearing a mask even though we have only theories that it will help.

Really, you think people telling others that because masks really can't hurt but could likely help stop the spread, they're the ones being 'mean'?  Meanwhile, people who refuse to wear masks have attacked and outright shot and killed people who politely requested that they wear them.  Or attacked people who just are walking around minding their own business wearing them.  Or because they're Asian and wearing a mask.  Or black and wearing a mask.  So, which 'side' is being aggressive?  Please show me even one example of someone walking around not wearing a mask who has been physically assaulted, or even publicly taunted.  Most certainly not killed. Being asked politely to care about public health is not an assault, it's not even shaming. There is absolutely no equivalency.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

The rules are a little different when it's a novel disease to a population.  It's estimated that as much as 90% of the Native American population was wiped out by European diseases, most before they'd ever laid eyes on an actual European.  So, a lot of people did not survive.  We're lucky this is just one disease, and that it's not as deadly to us as measles/smallpox etc. was to the Native Americans, and that we actually do have a clue about how different diseases spread.

Really, you think people telling others that because masks really can't hurt but could likely help stop the spread, they're the ones being 'mean'?  Meanwhile, people who refuse to wear masks have attacked and outright shot and killed people who politely requested that they wear them.  Or attacked people who just are walking around minding their own business wearing them.  Or because they're Asian and wearing a mask.  Or black and wearing a mask.  So, which 'side' is being aggressive?  Please show me even one example of someone walking around not wearing a mask who has been physically assaulted, or even publicly taunted.  Most certainly not killed. Being asked politely to care about public health is not an assault, it's not even shaming. There is absolutely no equivalency.

 

I was on an errand in a city area where nearly no one was wearing a mask. I was and 3 other people I saw were. I felt at risk—though just being there seemed a bit iffy regardless of mask.  Wearing the wrong color sweatshirt has been known to prove deadly on that side of the city.  An employee walked me out to my car.

 I occasionally need to get something at that place, but by and large I want to limit my errands to the other side of the tracks. Where a much higher number of people wear masks, and where even long before CV19, I have never felt like I needed to carefully consider whether any color I am wearing has been claimed by a gang. 

It was strange being out for first time since “phase 1” of reopening had gotten started.  

I expect that there will probably be an increase of cases locally, but probably not enough to stop from moving to phase 2 in 3 weeks or so. 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pen

[TracyP]

Re masking... I hope there actually starts to be some solid data about how beneficial masks are, particularly homemade masks. I am overall on board with the whole "can't hurt might help" mantra. If homemade masks make everyone feel better then maybe the psychological benefits are worth it.

However, I do see a few downsides. As we decide we need masks, I suspect we will eventually decide we need better masks. I hope this does not exacerbate the problem of shortages for health care providers.

I hope it doesn't give people a false sense of security - I'm not feeling great today. I'll just throw on this piece of cloth with gaping holes around my face before I buzz to the store. It'll be fine.... 🙄

Lastly, 2 teens my dd knows have quit their grocery store job (in part) because of masking rules. I thought they were being ridiculous, but I overheard a Walmart employee telling someone else what a problem it is. The masks are horribly hot, some people struggle to breathe with them on, and many employees are getting headaches from hours of wearing them. This could become really problematic when the people most likely to quit (teens) are really needed in these jobs.

 

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, TracyP said:

Re masking... I hope there actually starts to be some solid data about how beneficial masks are, particularly homemade masks. I am overall on board with the whole "can't hurt might help" mantra. If homemade masks make everyone feel better then maybe the psychological benefits are worth it.

However, I do see a few downsides. As we decide we need masks, I suspect we will eventually decide we need better masks. I hope this does not exacerbate the problem of shortages for health care providers.

I hope it doesn't give people a false sense of security - I'm not feeling great today. I'll just throw on this piece of cloth with gaping holes around my face before I buzz to the store. It'll be fine.... 🙄

Lastly, 2 teens my dd knows have quit their grocery store job (in part) because of masking rules. I thought they were being ridiculous, but I overheard a Walmart employee telling someone else what a problem it is. The masks are horribly hot, some people struggle to breathe with them on, and many employees are getting headaches from hours of wearing them. This could become really problematic when the people most likely to quit (teens) are really needed in these jobs.

 

Seems like the employer adjusting the air conditioning, and employees trying different styles of masks, like tie behind the head instead of the ears, would be a better solution than lots of employees quitting. 

I mean, plenty of people find shoes uncomfortable, but we didn't stop mandating shoes. We need to figure it out. 

And prove if they help or not. 

[Joker]

I would not be able to wear a mask all day so I do feel for those now in that position. I’ve been able to work up to 30 minutes but even now I start needing to take deep breaths and coughing within a few minutes. People really don’t like shopping anywhere near me. A few times I’ve had to cut my trip short because I would be breathing so heavy the mask was damp and that made everything worse. I’ve tried varying masks but none have made a difference. I’m not sure if I’m one who is better or worse off for myself, and others, by wearing one. As it is, I’m usually only out once a week for groceries but I could not wear one everyday and for sure not for several hours.

 Oh, I did have to go to the hospital yesterday to pick up a prescription for ds. Because of the mask, I had to put my face basically up to the open slot in the plexiglass shield for the pharmacist to hear me. Usually I could converse from a good distance but neither of us could understand each other. I wondered if that was a situation where it would be safer to talk through the plexiglass but without masks so we weren’t so close. 

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Seems like the employer adjusting the air conditioning, and employees trying different styles of masks, like tie behind the head instead of the ears, would be a better solution than lots of employees quitting. 

I mean, plenty of people find shoes uncomfortable, but we didn't stop mandating shoes. We need to figure it out. 

And prove if they help or not. 

I don't think it's that simple. AC doesn't help cool down your own breath, and wearing a mask for an 8 or 12 hour shift isn't comfortable whereas shoes can be more comfortable than going barefoot in most jobs. I had an outdoor job once in summer in tx where I had to wear a mask to protect against breathing in particulate. It was brutal and I felt like I was suffocating. Thankfully it was a temporary job that I didn't need to live. I am masking in public so I don't have personal objections, but I understand why people have a hard time with them, especially when I go to pick up groceries and those people are all trying to mask at a physical job in weather that is only going to get hotter.

[Momto6inIN]

Re masks

I've hesitated to wade in to this discussion, but I feel this is a relevant point.

I am willing to and I do wear a mask in public spaces. I do it sincerely out of a desire to make others feel more comfortable even though the data on its effectiveness seems sketchy to me. I am willing to inconvenience myself if it helps others, I really am.

But it reeeeeeeeally bothers me when people act like wearing a mask is no big deal. For me and many others, it *is* a very big deal. I feel claustrophobic and have mild panic attack like symptoms almost every single time I wear one no matter what type of mask I try and no matter how short a time span it is. I realize intellectually that it's all in my head and in reality I can breathe just fine, but that doesn't make it feel any less claustrophobic for me.

I also am concerned about the long term social ramifications if masks become the new norm in public spaces. I can't read people's faces to gauge their reactions with a mask, so I tend to have fewer random conversations in public. It feels cold and clinical and intimidating and contributes to my feelings of isolation. I think saying that wearing a mask is "no big deal" minimizes this very real effect on mental health.

I realize other cultures wear masks as their norm, and I'm not criticizing them. I'm just saying that the effect on current American culture is not something I think would be a good or a positive change.

[ktgrok]

35 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

Re masks

I've hesitated to wade in to this discussion, but I feel this is a relevant point.

I am willing to and I do wear a mask in public spaces. I do it sincerely out of a desire to make others feel more comfortable even though the data on its effectiveness seems sketchy to me. I am willing to inconvenience myself if it helps others, I really am.

But it reeeeeeeeally bothers me when people act like wearing a mask is no big deal. For me and many others, it *is* a very big deal. I feel claustrophobic and have mild panic attack like symptoms almost every single time I wear one no matter what type of mask I try and no matter how short a time span it is. I realize intellectually that it's all in my head and in reality I can breathe just fine, but that doesn't make it feel any less claustrophobic for me.

I also am concerned about the long term social ramifications if masks become the new norm in public spaces. I can't read people's faces to gauge their reactions with a mask, so I tend to have fewer random conversations in public. It feels cold and clinical and intimidating and contributes to my feelings of isolation. I think saying that wearing a mask is "no big deal" minimizes this very real effect on mental health.

I realize other cultures wear masks as their norm, and I'm not criticizing them. I'm just saying that the effect on current American culture is not something I think would be a good or a positive change.

Oh, I do know for some it is a big deal. But I am hesitant to believe that for the majority of people that is the case, and IF they help, than having the majority wear them, for whom it isn't a huge deal, would be benificial. 

And I suppose one could say that if the more at risk should just isolate themselves, rather than inconvenience others, the flip side would be that those who can't wear a mask should isolate themselves, in order to avoid infecting others. (I don't think either of those viewpoints is good, for the record)

[Pen]

16 hours ago, StellaM said:

I wonder how the US plans on fixing these endemic problems, as they open up.

Is there a plan?

I've been shocked at how little coverage I've seen of the impacts of this illness on indigenous communities.

 

If you look at the USA page of Worldometers.info, the Navajo nation is toward the bottom of the chart that breaks down the state’s individually.  And my state daily report that I get as an email has mentioned the tribal situation several times. 

I don’t know what is happening in Navajo lands area in terms of reopening plans. There is not only a Federal/ State situation in this regard, but also individual tribes have their own governance and ways of doing things.  I think USA has far more diversity and different ways amongst its First Nations than there are amongst Australia’s aboriginal peoples. 

I do know that some supplies (PPE, testing equipment etc) went from Federal government to First Nations areas separate than states. 

The Pnw area where I live has been trying to protect indigenous populations from CV19–apparently has been fairly successful so far. Or at least more successful than in Navajo area. 

(ETA: though perhaps also luck of not having had a superspreader event prior to state closing down...   afaik all counties in significantly high Native American areas of my state are in phase 1 reopening. ) 

 

foods improvement in recent years has been pushed toward increasing the traditional foods movement rather than bringing in supermarkets.  I know there are major food insecurity problems, but perhaps the foods that are being eaten are less bad  in this area than Navajo area?  I know there has also been an effort by some to get information on Vitamin D, zinc, etc to people known personally who are native Americans and hope that it gets to farther out areas and tribal lands in case it would be of help.  In pictures I have seen there is a lot of mask wearing. 

 

There are frequent water shortage / usage issues as between commercial farmers /ranchers vs indigenous peoples vs wildlife especially salmon and trout needs.  

 

 

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.119.044080

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

@StellaM or others Navajo  (Hopi also affected)

 

Navajo Department of Health

https://www.ndoh.navajo-nsn.gov/COVID-19/News-Update

 

One of a number of donation sites

https://www.nndoh.org/donate.html

 

[wathe]

18 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Ha! Nurses here get 3 x masks per shift. They are definitely not changing them every hour.

I get ONE.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Momto6inIN said:

Re masks

I've hesitated to wade in to this discussion, but I feel this is a relevant point.

I am willing to and I do wear a mask in public spaces. I do it sincerely out of a desire to make others feel more comfortable even though the data on its effectiveness seems sketchy to me. I am willing to inconvenience myself if it helps others, I really am.

But it reeeeeeeeally bothers me when people act like wearing a mask is no big deal. For me and many others, it *is* a very big deal. I feel claustrophobic and have mild panic attack like symptoms almost every single time I wear one no matter what type of mask I try and no matter how short a time span it is. I realize intellectually that it's all in my head and in reality I can breathe just fine, but that doesn't make it feel any less claustrophobic for me.

I also am concerned about the long term social ramifications if masks become the new norm in public spaces. I can't read people's faces to gauge their reactions with a mask, so I tend to have fewer random conversations in public. It feels cold and clinical and intimidating and contributes to my feelings of isolation. I think saying that wearing a mask is "no big deal" minimizes this very real effect on mental health.

I realize other cultures wear masks as their norm, and I'm not criticizing them. I'm just saying that the effect on current American culture is not something I think would be a good or a positive change.

 

I have problems too with wearing masks, but have had to do it quite a lot for years because of getting sick from other people’s fragranced products—which of course most people consider spreading their fragrance products in a cloud around them is their right and that anyone it bothers should permanently isolate at home. Or wear a mask. 

 Mask for fragrance products is only a partial help. I expect that would be the case also with masks for CV19–that it is only a partial help— but it is a partial help. 

I use a lot that I know about fragrance products and how they waft and cling to clothes, hair, bare skin, get inhaled, get into mouth, etc., as I think about the virus. 

[J-rap]

17 hours ago, AmandaVT said:

The gov. of VT has been talking about this a lot because we are in the process of slowly opening up. What it looks like here: 

• Very few new cases, like 0 or 1 most days
• Increased testing including testing for asymptomatic people - across the state we now have pop up testing sites and people are being encouraged to get tested
• Contact tracing for any new cases and self isolation for anyone in contact with someone who tested positive

Basically pretty South Korea-like here right now.

 

Our state recently posted numbers on what it will take to keep our curve flat here.  It will be nothing near very few cases/day...  But is based on if the new cases double in 5 days instead of ?? (can't remember the number) days, and things like that.   We currently have about 500-600 new cases/day, and around 25 deaths each day, and our hospitals are able to keep up.   Our state has also made a goal of testing every resident of care facilities that even have just one positive case (that began this past week), doing a minimum of 5,000 other tests each day, contact tracing, self-isolation with symptoms or contact, no gatherings above 10 (I can't see churches opening up here for a long time), and continuing work-at-home if at all possible.  We're cautiously starting to open things back up, and as long as numbers don't dramatically rise, our curve will apparently remain flat and manageable.  Most people here that I see are pretty compliant about social distancing and wearing masks.

[Matryoshka]

9 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 So how is that relevant to what Matryoshka asked? I get it, you said you’re afraid of a certain minority who lives across the tracks...but did they taunt you or physically accost you for wearing a mask, or a mask of a rival gang’s color? 

Get back to us when we start hearing stories of gang members across the tracks start murdering people for their offensive masks.

My point was that fully 100% of violent mask 'incidents' have been by anti-mask people against those wearing them.  Pen was wearing a mask.  Have no idea if gang member and mask colors are a potential problem, so far the problem set seems to be a bunch of entitled whiners who can't stand their right to offend/infect others being infringed upon.  (Yes, I'm calling them whiners.  People who can't wear a mask for medical reasons are not the people killing/assaulting others; they are not to whom I am referring.  Whiners is actually too mild a term for people who go out and injure or kill others because they don't want to wear a mask or are somehow offended by the sight of someone who is.  But apparently there are lots of them.)

Edited May 16, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Matryoshka]

Just now, Dotwithaperiod said:

I understand now. I deleted it because I was just a bit disgusted with the way she described being fearful of being on the wrong side of the tracks. My mom speaks like that, and worse, and it really really bothers me, so it was really more a personal peeve than against Pen.

I’ve also read reports of how in one city, maybe NYC?, 35 our of 39 arrested for not wearing their masks “correctly”were black. I think 3 additional were latinx.

Yeah, I've heard that some black people are being hassled (by police, not random pro-mask people) for being out without a mask walking around on streets - because just one more reason to stop and hassle them, and at the same time, black people have been told they can't come in or asked to leave stores if they have a mask on, because, you know, black people with masks are scary.  So, can't win.  The whole thing makes me a bit ragey, but have no idea how to fix long-standing societal prejudices that are at the root of it.

[Frances]

15 hours ago, StellaM said:

Sweden are doing very poorly re deaths when compared to countries of a similar size.

 

It’s also my understanding that one of the big reasons they haven’t done even worse using their approach is because a very significant percentage of the population lives alone. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

1 hour ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 So how is that relevant to what Matryoshka asked? I get it, you said you’re afraid of a certain minority who lives across the tracks...but did they taunt you or physically accost you for wearing a mask, or a mask of a rival gang’s color? 

Get back to us when we start hearing stories of gang members across the tracks start murdering people for their offensive masks.

 

 

Why should I wait to be attacked or murdered so that I can report back to you?   I am telling you that it was a potentially dangerous situation. 

I don’t think I was answering a question that Matryoshka asked. What did she ask that you thought I was answering? 

I was giving a recent experience since start of opening up related to masks.  

 

Things were dicey and a good sized male store employee walked me out because they could see there was a potential problem. 

.  

The point I was making about the gangs problem in the area I was in is that it is a violent high crime area, where it is known to be dangerous to wear colors associated with gangs.  There have been serious attacks on and one murder of  people not at all involved with gangs who happened to have a wrong color on.

So it has become a thing to be aware of. 

Thus in that area “masks” may just be an excuse for violence.  Any number of things may be an excuse for violence.  (eta—but I think complaints about mask wearing albeit by non violent people adds to the sense that mask wearers are a fair target for the more violent) 

Not all problems in that area are related to gangs, by any means. 

And my mask was not any gang coloration I know of, nor my clothes. 

I have lived through several riots situations.  A tinderbox atmosphere develops.  

If you have been in that you may understand what I mean.

In any case it was the second time that I have had a disturbing experience while wearing a mask in recent weeks. Though I think the first was probably not related to the mask, just coincidental and more likely just a weird guy. 

 

Quote

My point was that fully 100% of violent mask 'incidents' have been by anti-mask people against those wearing them.  Pen was wearing a mask.  Have no idea if gang member and mask colors are a potential problem, so far the problem set seems to be a bunch of entitled whiners who can't stand their right to offend/infect others being infringed upon.  (Yes, I'm calling them whiners.  People who can't wear a mask for medical reasons are not the people killing/assaulting others; they are not to whom I am referring.  Whiners is actually too mild a term for people who go out and injure or kill others because they don't want to wear a mask or are somehow offended by the sight of someone who is.  But apparently there are lots of them.)

 

I think people adding to talk around masks being an infringement of their rights or anti western culture or so forth adds to tendency of the slightly unbalanced to go off on a mask wearer or to go off on someone doing his / her job to enforce a business’s mask policy.  As well as copycat problems. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

@Dreamergal I live in a rural area.  We get water from a bore well.  Some people get it from a spring with some sort of collection system.  Some get it from roof collection systems. Or combinations.  

The nearest city gets it from a reservoir system. The next city after that gets it from a river plus some collection reservoirs. 

The area I currently live in is an area with in some ways lots of rain and water, yet nonetheless subject to drought  and  declining aquifers.   And dry summer fires. 

Huge projects can indeed bring water from one place to another. 

Water going to some large desert cities like Los Angeles has been a significant matter of diversion and aqueduct building—and has often resulted in the original area with the Water from where it was diverted going dry.

Potable water is not something to take lightly!!!

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Yeah, I've heard that some black people are being hassled (by police, not random pro-mask people) for being out without a mask walking around on streets - because just one more reason to stop and hassle them, and at the same time, black people have been told they can't come in or asked to leave stores if they have a mask on, because, you know, black people with masks are scary.  So, can't win.  The whole thing makes me a bit ragey, but have no idea how to fix long-standing societal prejudices that are at the root of it.

Yes, it is so incredibly upsetting, and it doesn't "directly" effect me. But yeah, asking black men to wear a mask, when we all know that just wearing a hoody is "threatening" is a huge thing, and then on the flip side stopping them when they don't. And stopping them when they do. 

Interestingly though, in my nearby walmart (main store I go to because they have some specific gluten free things hard to find elsewhere), I'd say that the black population is WAY more likely to be wearing a mask than the white population, across age demographics. 

I can't help but wonder if that is because it is a way to protect oneself, rather than relying on society/government/science/good luck...and as a community none of the above have done right by them. So they feel they need to be proactive in doing what they can to protect themselves, because they don't trust anyone else to care enough to protect them. And if so, I don't blame them one bit.

34 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Very interesting to read. Thanks AM.

I have never wondered in America where the food came from until COVID. Now I am wondering where my water comes from especially as I heard there is a carbondioxide or natural gas shortage (not sure what it is) and it may affect water purification. Clean water from a tap, food in a supermarket seems so simple and yet the process behind is so complex that I did not even stop to think how it all happens. COVID is making me more aware and that is not a bad thing. 

As for other problems, I do hope something serious is done to make a dent. I still think it is a shame safe water is not a given in America.

Regarding the water issue,  I live in a weird little area that has a large population of lower middle class and the very very poor, of all colors...we are on the border between the Orlando metro area and starting to get more rural, as well as having a very old section of town that is literally full of shacks....I'm positive some don't have running water, electricity, etc much of the time. I'm VERY glad that they froze shut offs, but it really got me thinking. Those of us that are sure healthcare should be a national right, like education....why have we not realized that even more basic than either of those is WATER! I don't mean in the sense of Flint, where everyone is rightly upset about the city water they pay for not being safe. I mean, why do we think education should be free, but not water?  (with caveats that all free things are paid by taxes0

[GoodGrief]

20 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

I did see some news clip on this mentioning that the reservation was a food desert akin to inner cities, with mostly convenience store type groceries available.  That kind of diet is such a recipe for bad health... 😟

 We actually lived on the Navajo reservation  for a few years and worked in healthcare there, as well as in rural/off road Alaska. My oldest daughter was born in a reservation hospital.  Arctic Mom offered some good insights. There are actually decent grocery stores in some of the bigger population centers with everything you would see in a typical store anywhere. The issue is that the reservation is quite spread out though, so there will be some driving to get to the store from some homes. That's true of any rural area though. The village population in Alaska has a completely different situation though, with no road access to villages and air service that can be unreliable. The Alaska population has more access to seasonal subsistence food gathering activity though (fishing,hunting, foraging) than those on the Navajo reservation. Huge gains in improving water access and sewage disposal have been made in the last three decades. Completely different situation than it was when we first started working in the area. Communal living is common and will guarantee the spread of infection.

[Pen]

 

Double message better version below

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

Dm 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

..  

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

, ...  

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

3 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Yeah, I've heard that some black people are being hassled (by police, not random pro-mask people) for being out without a mask walking around on streets - because just one more reason to stop and hassle them, and at the same time, black people have been told they can't come in or asked to leave stores if they have a mask on, because, you know, black people with masks are scary.  So, can't win.  The whole thing makes me a bit ragey, but have no idea how to fix long-standing societal prejudices that are at the root of it.

 

My son is brown, and it is hard to balance safety in various ways and also prejudice.

 Especially now as he is a teen it increases as an issue. 

I have been thinking about this also in choosing mask fabrics that he may use at some point. 

Not black or very dark because it looks scary to people, not ___ because it is a gang color, not a pastels babyish print because he would be made fun of, ...  

 

[Pen]

, ...

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

Sorry some weird gremlin multiplied my replies. Trying to get rid of all but one!

[ktgrok]

So, trying to grasp and condense what I'm hearing...

Goal of the open up plan is sort of to keep on keeping on, with numbers around where they are now, is that right? So some places very few, places like where I am, probably staying at around 800 new cases a day for the state, etc?  

So when we say accept it, accept it at around the level it is, but not growing a ton faster?

(not saying that is good or bad, just wondering if that is what people are thinking)

Edited May 16, 2020 by Ktgrok

[Carrie12345]

Y’all.
I had a nightmare last night that everything opened up and no one was wearing masks. (Masks are worn by almost everyone here right now.) For some reason, I was a public school teacher, which made it even worse. I was left deciding to quit my job.

I live in a private community that straddles two counties.  The side I’m not on is supposed to move to “yellow” next week. We’re still scheduled to be “red”. I have no idea what to expect from the masses.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

It almost sounds like you are looking for some sort of unified answer.

Unfortunately, there isn't one.  And I am going to fall back on the fact of the size of our country.  The US simply cannot present any sort of unified answer because of how big it is.  There are too many people and too many miles for the right answer to be the same across all 327 million people and all 3.8 million sq miles.  

The goal is going to vary based on location, population density, are sq miles, area cases, demographics, and a whole lot of other variables.  

No, not a unified answer...I'd love to hear lots of different answers. Sorry that wasn't clear. I'm looking more for the range of answers, than the average, if that makes sense?

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes, it is so incredibly upsetting, and it doesn't "directly" effect me. But yeah, asking black men to wear a mask, when we all know that just wearing a hoody is "threatening" is a huge thing, and then on the flip side stopping them when they don't. And stopping them when they do. 

Interestingly though, in my nearby walmart (main store I go to because they have some specific gluten free things hard to find elsewhere), I'd say that the black population is WAY more likely to be wearing a mask than the white population, across age demographics. 

I can't help but wonder if that is because it is a way to protect oneself, rather than relying on society/government/science/good luck...and as a community none of the above have done right by them. So they feel they need to be proactive in doing what they can to protect themselves, because they don't trust anyone else to care enough to protect them. And if so, I don't blame them one bit.

Regarding the water issue,  I live in a weird little area that has a large population of lower middle class and the very very poor, of all colors...we are on the border between the Orlando metro area and starting to get more rural, as well as having a very old section of town that is literally full of shacks....I'm positive some don't have running water, electricity, etc much of the time. I'm VERY glad that they froze shut offs, but it really got me thinking. Those of us that are sure healthcare should be a national right, like education....why have we not realized that even more basic than either of those is WATER! I don't mean in the sense of Flint, where everyone is rightly upset about the city water they pay for not being safe. I mean, why do we think education should be free, but not water?  (with caveats that all free things are paid by taxes0

Cynically speaking because public education is more about keeping kids off the streets and the good of society than the good of the individual.

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

My son is brown, and it is hard to balance safety in various ways and also prejudice.

 Especially now as he is a teen it increases as an issue. 

I have been thinking about this also in choosing mask fabrics that he may use at some point. 

Not black or very dark because it looks scary to people, not ___ because it is a gang color, not a pastels babyish print because he would be made fun of, ...  

 

Maybe something featuring the logo of a sports team or something be follows:  that seems like it would come across as non intimidating and relatable 

[Guest]

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

Maybe something featuring the logo of a sports team or something be follows:  that seems like it would come across as non intimidating and relatable 

unfortunately, some pro sports logos are now associated with Gangs, at least in some urban areas. When I was teaching in public schools, it seemed like every few months there was a new something or other that we had to warn our kids not to wear, because it had been appropriated. Same with colors. 

Even my white teen girl discovered that if she wore the wrong hoodie, she got treated with more suspicion (she had a black one with a cryptic symbol, referring to her cheer team from the prior season)-she now mostly wears really bright ones, and it really does seem to make a difference.

Maybe the closest major University?

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Ds has a mask made from triple layers of a navy material with white musical notes all over it.

I figured that quirky prints are more likely to be a. worn and b. not misinterpreted by others.

 

Yep or maybe some of that fabric with book quotes on it or something although that may seem too soft 

[Pen]

In my county (and state) there is a written plan.  It is available to read online. And it is also part of the western state’s consortium opening with coordinated plan.  

And native lands have also, or instead of counties, tribal governance overseeing their opening and opening decisions.  There are lots and lots of Native American groups. 

I expect that written plans are available for many places.  Idk? 

Each county had to apply to the state to be allowed to open based on a bunch of criteria.  Hospital capacity, tracing, testing,...

At first 28 were approved to open, then iirc 31 were approved.  Now nearly the whole state is in phase 1.  Then county by county from phase 1 they can go to phase 2 (basically if there isn’t a swell of cases for at least 14 days from phase 1), and so forth.

The counties not yet open had too many daily cases still afaik. 

[Frances]

19 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I was on an errand in a city area where nearly no one was wearing a mask. I was and 3 other people I saw were. I felt at risk—though just being there seemed a bit iffy regardless of mask.  Wearing the wrong color sweatshirt has been known to prove deadly on that side of the city.  An employee walked me out to my car.

 I occasionally need to get something at that place, but by and large I want to limit my errands to the other side of the tracks. Where a much higher number of people wear masks, and where even long before CV19, I have never felt like I needed to carefully consider whether any color I am wearing has been claimed by a gang. 

It was strange being out for first time since “phase 1” of reopening had gotten started.  

I expect that there will probably be an increase of cases locally, but probably not enough to stop from moving to phase 2 in 3 weeks or so. 

 

I know we live in the same state and I’m really curious to know where you were because this sounds very unfamiliar to me, except for the non mask wearing.

[TracyP]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

No, not a unified answer...I'd love to hear lots of different answers. Sorry that wasn't clear. I'm looking more for the range of answers, than the average, if that makes sense?

 I believe my state is willing to see cases increase as we open up. We have 200 icu beds being used for COVID patients right now. We have 1600 icu beds available. We have 3000ish ventilators available. We wish our PPE situation were better but we have 2-3 mos available at current usage levels. Hopefully, more will be coming soon.

Ideally we can stay relatively flat now that we have a better testing/tracing system in place, but I think we are okay with an increase as long as it remains manageable. 

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

Very interesting to read. Thanks AM.

I have never wondered in America where the food came from until COVID. Now I am wondering where my water comes from especially as I heard there is a carbondioxide or natural gas shortage (not sure what it is) and it may affect water purification. Clean water from a tap, food in a supermarket seems so simple and yet the process behind is so complex that I did not even stop to think how it all happens. COVID is making me more aware and that is not a bad thing. 

As for other problems, I do hope something serious is done to make a dent. I still think it is a shame safe water is not a given in America.

Water is almost like gold or oil in some parts of the US, and it’s only going to get worse with global warning. 
 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwj81KqbxbnpAhU8FzQIHaqlCA0QFjABegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fthe-water-wars-that-defined-the-american-west-are-heading-east-11575315318&usg=AOvVaw21gKgbZznlVef9PnKqIUC8

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/harvard-quietly-amasses-california-vineyardsand-the-water-underneath-1544456396
 

 

 

 

[Pen]

18 hours ago, Frances said:

I know we live in the same state and I’m really curious to know where you were because this sounds very unfamiliar to me, except for the non mask wearing.

 

Alas, I was fairly near what I have heard has been called “heroine hill” area, I think. 

https://kval.com/news/local/theres-been-a-big-rivalry-between-several-of-the-gangs

 

(this article is older, but sort of explains the situation... and more or less location.  I don’t want to put specific street or store name.   Btw, if you have concerns regarding safety for kids for college, I think the UofO area is much safer than where I was. )

 

ETA: newer: an example of potential dangers of accidentally wearing wrong thing:

https://kval.com/news/local/we-know-there-are-gangs-in-eugene-springfield-there-are-hundreds-of-gang-members

 

But much of problem isn’t gang related. That just adds to it. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Pen

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, TracyP said:

 I believe my state is willing to see cases increase as we open up. We have 200 icu beds being used for COVID patients right now. We have 1600 icu beds available. We have 3000ish ventilators available. We wish our PPE situation were better but we have 2-3 mos available at current usage levels. Hopefully, more will be coming soon.

Ideally we can stay relatively flat now that we have a better testing/tracing system in place, but I think we are okay with an increase as long as it remains manageable. 

What do the new cases/deaths per day look like there? Just looking at general comparisons as we don't publish ICU bed stats so not sure how to compare. 

[ktgrok]

Checked, according to the dashboard for the state, looks like a goal is to have positive test rate stay at or below 10%. Which would be, at 10% of population, 2 million people. 

[TracyP]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

What do the new cases/deaths per day look like there? Just looking at general comparisons as we don't publish ICU bed stats so not sure how to compare. 

This is Minnesota. We are averaging about 25 deaths a day tho the last few days have been down. New cases are running around 600-800 per day. Testing is available if you are symptomatic or asymptomatic and had contact with known case. 

[vonfirmath]

9 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

People do haul water all the time in India from the nearest source, even middle class people at times. The thing is though there is a nearest water source that is not a river or an aquifer, sometimes just a tank or a bore well. You can construct a canal to bring the water like India has done in a desert region called the Thar. They manage to grow crops now in the desert because of that.

http://geographyrevisionaqa.weebly.com/the-thar-desert-case-study.html

In the middle east, water is almost exclusively from desalination plants and it is expensive. But this is America, a rich country where people from all over the world come for a better quality of life. It certainly upped mine though I am middle class, not wealthy or even rich in from where I came from and here. So I cannot believe there are people  who struggle for water  here and I recently learned about it on CNN in an article about COVID deaths affecting the Native American population highly. 

I do not know where native Americans live in America, the geography, the complex history behind it and you know more than me about that. But just land mass and the population in the US alone to me makes me think that there is much more water for people here so I cannot believe there is no way to get water to some places even if they need to carry it themselves part way. But people do that all the time. I've seen people carry water on foot, on their heads, on bikes. But safe, potable water needs to be there for people to have good hygiene and cleaning practices let alone cooking and drinking. I just cannot believe though there is no way and I definitely think even though I do not know much about it, a lot more about apathy and politics if you ask me. Sorry AM.

It's been so interesting to read about how water was gotten in India.

 

I knew many of our sponsored children did not have running water. But this whole coronavirus has shown how ingenius that lack has made them, with the solutions some of the communities have come up with to have access to "running" water to wash their hands in near their houses -- even if that water originally has to be toted up from a river or local water source.  (I know one of our communities in Columbia has water trucked in. I wonder how they are surviving. If they can get water or if that adds more danger to their lives.)

[Momto6inIN]

22 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Oh, I do know for some it is a big deal. But I am hesitant to believe that for the majority of people that is the case

I'm not so sure. I mean, yes, obviously, some people are just simply selfish jerks. But I think a lot of pretty decent people have a very primal, visceral reaction to wearing a mask/having their face covered. And while they might not be introspective like me and try to define exactly why they are uncomfortable in them, I definitely think that's what's driving a lot of people's objections to it. Whether they take the time to articulate it as "the mental health ramifications of this are too much for me" or they just say "I don't want to and shouldn't have to wear one", I suspect the root issue is the same.

Two friends of mine, whose mothers live in nursing homes, have both told me that their moms have tested positive for covid this weekend.  These are supposedly "good" nursing homes, and neither is in a state particularly hard hit, but both states are still "closed".  Both facilities banned in-person guest visits weeks ago, and as far as I can tell are doing everything right -- testing everyone daily, and isolating those residents who test positive immediately.

Flattening or not, it seems hard to understand how we are going to keep our elderly population safe, if we are still seeing new transmission even in this locked down state.

[Valley Girl]

I was thinking about the whole "I don't want to wear a mask or do whatever" thing this morning.

One the one hand, people on this board say--quite rightly--that information and recommendations change because the virus is novel... we're constantly learning new things about how it spreads and affects people... treatments and recommendations will subsequently be modified in response to new information, etc. That's to be expected with any new illness. And we have to roll with it and adapt.

But I think it's EQUALLY normal to expect that people will have different responses to that changing information. You can't say, on the one hand, that the information will change and then expect millions of people to just be in lockstep with whatever the recommendation du jour is. Add in the fact that states are handling things differently and some officials at every level of government have been unclear or committed acts of overreach in regard to restrictions (despite any good intentions), and you have a recipe for confusion and grounds for disagreement.

There's also the fact (at least I think it's a fact) that the WTM forum is a bubble. The vast majority of people are not poring over graphs and models... dissecting studies... discussing the merits of vitamin D vs. other preventatives... etc. They're just not. Even if people have access to and pay attention to the news, they're likely not digesting a constant stream of it. It's too much, and people are busy living their lives and trying to navigate the many serious and practical issues resulting from the pandemic and the accompanying restrictions.

I understand wanting everyone to do their part. I do, especially if on the surface it's relatively simple. I just get frustrated with some of the... derision... I see on these threads toward people who have made different decisions as though they're all operating from the same mindset and negative motivation. (Some are, I admit, just like I think some officials may be getting a little drunk on their own power.)

And for the record, before anyone starts accusing me of not caring about healthcare workers or people with health issues or whatever, we're wearing masks. I'm making them for others. We're still staying home as much as possible despite things opening up. I just don't think things are as black and white as some here would like them to be.

 

[Valley Girl]

1 hour ago, kand said:

I definitely agree things aren’t black and white at all, and I think most here probably do as well. This is hard and we don’t know yet how we’re going to get out of it or when, and that makes it 100 times harder. I think if this whole thing could have started out differently here in the US, without political lines being drawn about it before it ever hit our shore, we would be coping so much better as a country. I think about the way we came together after 9/11, and how different it would be if we had that kind of response now. Which we really should. It’s been said over and over, but there’s nothing political about this virus, and it’s going to take science and not politics to resolve it.

Completely agree with you on that. DS and I were studying 9/11 just a week ago in his history class, and one of the things I told him was that in the immediate aftermath, there was no right or left,  there was just a people united in grief and shock... and that we saw the very best of people working together.  It was the one redeeming grace in the horror. To the extent that we don't have that now for political reasons is something BOTH sides share blame for, in my opinion. (I won't say more per board rules.) It's too late to change that, unfortunately, but I sure hope for better going forward.

[lewelma]

22 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

No, not a unified answer...I'd love to hear lots of different answers. Sorry that wasn't clear. I'm looking more for the range of answers, than the average, if that makes sense?

My guess is that it will be an emergent phenomenon rather than a coordinated decision. Everything I have read seems to point to people not trusting constantly changing government advice, so I think many will simply ignore it. So in my mind the national covid result will be the sum of 400 million people's individual choices, and these choices will be based on perceived risk in their area.  

So my expectation is that most elderly and immunocompromised will continue to stay home as much as possible, and people in hard hit cities will stay home. Not because the government tells them to, but because they don't feel safe going out.  In localities where the risk is low (urban or rural), people will go out to work, shop, and play.  This will continue in their location until there is a rise in cases, and then people will get scared, and stay home. My guess is that the time delay in this decision making will cause the hospitals to be overwhelmed for a time in that locality, because by the time people are scared, the growth rate will be on the steep part of the exponential curve. But I think this individual decision making will be done city by city, state by state, based on an evaluation of individual risk and individual needs -- so the poor will continue to go out to work longer than the rich.

I am not convinced that once people are out of state mandated lockdown that they will ever do it again. I do not think that in and out will be accepted and complied with; however I do think that individuals will make the choice to stay home, and individual business will make the choice to control spread by behavior modification that their customers expect - for example each universities is making its own decisions, not coordinated by anyone. Basically, I see the American response as very American -- individual choice and freedom is all important.  It may not be the most effective/coordinated course of action, but it reflects American values. 

I anticipate that covid will simply work its way around the USA for two years, peaking in different localities, until enough people get it or there is a vaccine that has been widely distributed. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by lewelma

[Ottakee]

4 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

 

The other hotspot in my city is a low socio-economic, low education status area. I don't know what's driving the behaviors there - ignorance? Idk. I think that's quite dismissive of the people in that area doing the right thing. An extended family member lives there with her extended family - none of them have degrees, lots of them live pay check to pay check - they seem to be doing a pretty good job of abiding by the requests of the CMO. They would be the first to say that some people only think of themselves.

My first thought would be that those in this group are more likely to be those that are working in gas stations/convenience stores, grocery stores, doing delivery, working in food service,  nurses aides, etc.....basically higher risk jobs.