Katy Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I don't think anyone answered @Quill's question up thread about foster parents. Spanking or any form of corporal punishment, even not allowing dessert, is not allowed of foster children in any state in the USA. While licensing & home safety guidelines vary based on the state and if you're getting licensed by a private agency or the county, guidelines regarding punishment are pretty clear on a federal level, and the training is increasingly standardized. I generally stay out of the spanking debates, but I'm not sure that what happens with foster kids can be extrapolated to the general population. Many of the kids who have been in my home had severe trauma, and with my background I try to take medically fragile kids rather than high trauma kids. I mean neglect followed by being beaten to the point of needing hospitalization many times, weren't yanked from the home until CPS had been called on the family more than 30 times, including by surgeons and the police trauma. I had one three year old I took to the walk in clinic with an ear infection and the doctor brought in a medical records folder two inches thick and scowled at me until I identified myself as a foster parent. I took videos of that child self-harming repeatedly to make sure I wouldn't be blamed for the bruises. What's going on in those kids is so horrifying that any sort of physical discipline whatsoever would not help. It would just traumatize them further. I'm not sure that's true of most children, raised in more typical environments. But IME with most pre-verbal toddlers redirecting is enough. I did have one of my sons go through a phase when he thought it was hilarious to pelt me with poopy diapers during changes, and nothing I could think of (or anything my sibling the child therapist could think of) was enough. I finally warned him if he tried that again he was going to get a spanking, and when he did I swatted him on the butt. He got angry but stopped, and tried again about a week later. That time tears came to his eyes but he never did it again. This child is still so sensitive to sounds and verbal tones that I have to be careful not to watch the news in his presence, because if some politician does something I consider rant-worthy and I snark at the TV he'll burst into sobs and assume I'm angry at him. I've never been that angry at him, so I'm not sure where that came from. Sometimes joking with DH in a snarky way has made him burst into tears. He is very sensitive to praise or criticism, but when it came to laughing and pelting mom with poop neither the praise for not doing it or the harsh tone I used when he did made a difference. I wasn't very happy with myself for resorting to a swat, but I was happy that the behavior ended. And similar to something Jordan Petersen said about never letting your children do anything that makes you dislike them, I was relieved that I wasn't resenting him any longer. Because having to take multiple showers every day got very old and very annoying fast, and I was resenting him, and he's normally a wonderfully likeable, flirtatious and charming kid. I'm not sure in the long run that resenting my child wouldn't have been much more damaging than the two swats on the butt he got. But a swat that wasn't enough to make a pink mark is worlds away from boards and switches, so idk. I certainly think it should be a last resort, but I can't say I'm that sorry I did it. And I in no way think that it would in any state be considered abuse, but if I'd let myself get so angry at him I started yelling I DO think that would be considered verbal abuse, at least in most states I've lived. Not that I've never lost it on my kids, but there's a difference between general yelling and personal yelling. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 21 minutes ago, LucyStoner said: You say you wish to be left to parent your way. And you are being left to parent your way. No one is infringing on you. A vocal subset of pro-spankers however, IME are more likely to make their views known, intrusively and rudely. Up close and personal. Having someone on the internet disagree with you is not having your parenting rights impinged on. It doesn’t impact your life in the least. Having people tell me to hit my kids at moments I might need support rather than judgmental bullshit is actually something that impacts my life. Ok, not laughing at your unfortunate experience, but chuckling as someone who about 10yrs ago lived in the PNW and was very involved in natural birth/ breastfeeding/AP community. This was...not my experience and I wasn't even advocating for spanking or discussing it in any way like we are here. But it's not like they were judgement-free, ya know? Or didn't know how to make a mom feel crappy about not using "positive parenting" or not letting babies cry or whatever. Anyway, just to say I think it's cultural or age related maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, EmseB said: Ok, not laughing at your unfortunate experience, but chuckling as someone who about 10yrs ago lived in the PNW and was very involved in natural birth/ breastfeeding/AP community. This was...not my experience and I wasn't even advocating for spanking or discussing it in any way like we are here. But it's not like they were judgement-free, ya know? Or didn't know how to make a mom feel crappy about not using "positive parenting" or not letting babies cry or whatever. Anyway, just to say I think it's cultural or age related maybe? I’ve lived here for 35 years. We travel all over the state. I didn’t really travel in the natural birth/AP/natural parenting circles because I had two c-sections and worked FT out of the home for most of the time until my younger son was pushing 4. I worked for a parenting group and was super familiar with the subculture you describe but we lived in an area with a wider range of values. Definitely not a judgment free area. Plenty of moments of racism when taking care of my brown niece and nephew. Plenty of people who are intolerant of neurodiverse kids. So, 10 years ago you lived here for a bit, were very involved in a specific and somewhat insular community. I’m not doubting your experience, it jibes with something I know to be present here for sure. But that’s not really the only community or subculture around here. Edited October 2, 2019 by LucyStoner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 11 minutes ago, LucyStoner said: I’ve lived here for 35 years. We travel all over the state. I didn’t really travel in the natural birth/AP/natural parenting circles because I had two c-sections and worked FT out of the home for most of the time until my younger son was pushing 4. I worked for a parenting group and was super familiar with the subculture you describe but we lived in an area with a wider range of values. Definitely not a judgment free area. Plenty of moments of racism when taking care of my brown niece and nephew. Plenty of people who are intolerant of neurodiverse kids. So, 10 years ago you lived here for a bit, were very involved in a specific and somewhat insular community. I’m not doubting your experience, it jibes with something I know to be present here for sure. But that’s not really the only community or subculture around here. Ok, just relating my experience. It seemed more prominent there than other areas of the country I've lived, but could have just been who I knew. It was strange because I could go to a LLL meeting and feel crappy for not baby wearing, or go to a different circle of people and feel crappy for spoiling my infant. :shrug: Not trying to challenge your experience or one up, just to say that I think judgement can come from a lot of sides and perspectives, especially for moms. I have heard people say, "all that kid needs is one good swat," but I've also had people tell me I'm going to brain damage my kid because they spend too much time in their bucket seat. Now I'm about to have baby #5 I've decided I don't care too much what other people are saying about my kids or parenting, lol. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) All I know is, the people who laughed at me getting down at eye level to tell my 3 yo that I was disappointed in her behavior, scoffed when I told my mostly non-verbal son that he wasn't using his words and "you need to use your words" for the 179th time, practically fell out of their chairs when my toddler said, "I not handing my sponsitilities?" Aren't laughing so much now. I got so many horrible looks when my 'runner' had a teddy bear backpack with tether, especially from my older relatives. Did it suck not to get an immediate payoff sometimes? Yep. But I literally just asked my oldest, 'How do you feel about spanking?' and she said, "Well, my mom cannot spank because it hurts her hands so...yeah...do I laugh or try to keep a straight face?" ...and then she walked off to read Lord of the Flies with her aunt over the phone. Edited October 2, 2019 by Sneezyone 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, EmseB said: Ok, just relating my experience. It seemed more prominent there than other areas of the country I've lived, but could have just been who I knew. It was strange because I could go to a LLL meeting and feel crappy for not baby wearing, or go to a different circle of people and feel crappy for spoiling my infant. :shrug: Not trying to challenge your experience or one up, just to say that I think judgement can come from a lot of sides and perspectives, especially for moms. I have heard people say, "all that kid needs is one good swat," but I've also had people tell me I'm going to brain damage my kid because they spend too much time in their bucket seat. Now I'm about to have baby #5 I've decided I don't care too much what other people are saying about my kids or parenting, lol. I tried to locate a LLL meeting here. They were so flaky about communicating schedule changes I gave that up, lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 37 minutes ago, Katy said: I don't think anyone answered @Quill's question up thread about foster parents. Spanking or any form of corporal punishment, even not allowing dessert, is not allowed of foster children in any state in the USA. While licensing & home safety guidelines vary based on the state and if you're getting licensed by a private agency or the county, guidelines regarding punishment are pretty clear on a federal level, and the training is increasingly standardized. I generally stay out of the spanking debates, but I'm not sure that what happens with foster kids can be extrapolated to the general population. Many of the kids who have been in my home had severe trauma, and with my background I try to take medically fragile kids rather than high trauma kids. I mean neglect followed by being beaten to the point of needing hospitalization many times, weren't yanked from the home until CPS had been called on the family more than 30 times, including by surgeons and the police trauma. I had one three year old I took to the walk in clinic with an ear infection and the doctor brought in a medical records folder two inches thick and scowled at me until I identified myself as a foster parent. I took videos of that child self-harming repeatedly to make sure I wouldn't be blamed for the bruises. What's going on in those kids is so horrifying that any sort of physical discipline whatsoever would not help. It would just traumatize them further. I'm not sure that's true of most children, raised in more typical environments. But IME with most pre-verbal toddlers redirecting is enough. I did have one of my sons go through a phase when he thought it was hilarious to pelt me with poopy diapers during changes, and nothing I could think of (or anything my sibling the child therapist could think of) was enough. I finally warned him if he tried that again he was going to get a spanking, and when he did I swatted him on the butt. He got angry but stopped, and tried again about a week later. That time tears came to his eyes but he never did it again. This child is still so sensitive to sounds and verbal tones that I have to be careful not to watch the news in his presence, because if some politician does something I consider rant-worthy and I snark at the TV he'll burst into sobs and assume I'm angry at him. I've never been that angry at him, so I'm not sure where that came from. Sometimes joking with DH in a snarky way has made him burst into tears. He is very sensitive to praise or criticism, but when it came to laughing and pelting mom with poop neither the praise for not doing it or the harsh tone I used when he did made a difference. I wasn't very happy with myself for resorting to a swat, but I was happy that the behavior ended. And similar to something Jordan Petersen said about never letting your children do anything that makes you dislike them, I was relieved that I wasn't resenting him any longer. Because having to take multiple showers every day got very old and very annoying fast, and I was resenting him, and he's normally a wonderfully likeable, flirtatious and charming kid. I'm not sure in the long run that resenting my child wouldn't have been much more damaging than the two swats on the butt he got. But a swat that wasn't enough to make a pink mark is worlds away from boards and switches, so idk. I certainly think it should be a last resort, but I can't say I'm that sorry I did it. And I in no way think that it would in any state be considered abuse, but if I'd let myself get so angry at him I started yelling I DO think that would be considered verbal abuse, at least in most states I've lived. Not that I've never lost it on my kids, but there's a difference between general yelling and personal yelling. Yeah, the child's background (and temperament) make a world of difference. Our current church nursery leaders have a strong preference that parents drop their kids off and leave quickly. For many kids that works fine. My current toddler though is still, more than a year after the fact, dealing with trauma from a hospitalization. He's only recently started to feel comfortable in public places and around non family members. For now, I go to nursery with him and stay the entire time because for this specific child dropping him off and leaving would be extremely traumatizing. Child rearing can't be generic, it has to be tailored to the child (and also to the parent). What is best for Johnny is not the same as what is best for Jane. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 hours ago, StellaM said: What are we gonna have, spanking inspectors ? (God, I wish that wasn't the term used in the US, this thread is a fetishists' search dream) Which leads into another reason in the 'con' column: swatting kids on the butt often arouses sexual feelings. Which is why it's such a common fetish. What term do y'all use? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I spanked my children. I don't regret it, generally. There are a few times I do regret. There are also times I used other methods that I regret, because I was aggravated or frustrated, and said things I shouldn't have. But I also used many other forms of teaching my children, such as redirection, conversation, logical consequences, and so on. Spanking was only a small part of our training. I used it primarily from ages 2-5 for direct disobedience, and under controlled circumstances (i.e., not in anger, very specific conversation--I told you not to do this, you did this, so I am going to punish you by giving you two pops to help you remember to listen next time.) My children understood that spanking was not all-out hitting; it served a specific and limited purpose. It was never on any part of their body than the seat of their pants. None of them hit each other or anybody else outside of the early toddler years. I am reading here lots of people saying it isn't effective, but I personally found it very effective for the age span for which I used it. It was quick, clean, and over, with a hug at the end and a reminder of "I love you, but you must learn to do what is right." The results were that the child learned quickly not to do that behavior, and did not have residual trauma over it. In fact, they didn't seem upset or tense with us after it was over. They were not afraid of us. I had one child who was a real drama kid. When I tried other methods of discipline (say, a time on the steps), this child drug it out into an hours-long situation of tears and drama. It created hours of tension and stress for both of us. When I spanked that child, it was like it was a relief to reset them, and it was over. Then they cheerfully went on their way. I know this puts me in the doghouse by many people's standards, and will lower other's opinions of me on this board. I really hesitated to post it. I suspect there are others here who agree, but are afraid to say so, like I kind of am. But it was a (small) part of our many parenting tools, and our children have grown up to be pretty wonderful and well-adjusted people. I don't know if they will spank or not, because it seems that for the most part, it is considered so horrible these days. I won't tell them they should. I will never spank my grandchildren. I don't think anyone should spank someone else's child. I would have been very upset if a school or anyone else had spanked any of mine. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassia Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) I was spanked as a kid - my mother would order it and my father would do it when he got home. With a belt on my bare bottom. He was against spanking but did it because she thought it was important. He never hit me hard and it never hurt but it was so humiliating and it was awful waiting all day for it. I swore I would never hit my own kids and I never did (I have 4). There was only one time I was tempted to hit one of my kids but it was out of anger and frustration so I'm glad I didn't. I rarely yelled either but I do have many regrets and wish I had done some things differently. That being said, I don't think spanking (as long as it isn't abuse) is harmful. I just don't like the idea of hitting anyone - especially a small child - and don't think it's effective or a good parenting. And I don't think it's setting a good example to children. I don't think I was harmed by being spanked but I also don't think it was a good form of discipline. I never thought about what I had done to get spanked - I only felt upset and humiliated as I vowed to never do it to my own children. I think most parents who spank are loving parents who just don't know other ways of discipline that work. ETA - I realize I may seem wishy-washy in my post and want to emphasize that I am against spanking but I don't think that spanking = abuse. I would prefer that children weren't spanked. Edited October 2, 2019 by Kassia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 3 hours ago, EmseB said: Oh definitely, I know it's very black and white for a lot of people. I guess I'm not sure what I'm willing to do to people (and their kids) who think an open hand to the bum of their own kids is acceptable punishment. To me, that's where it gets complex and difficult because I grew up in a very loving home where that was acceptable punishment and making my parents criminals would have been far more traumatizing than any spanking I ever received. This is where I stand. The pop psychology is crap on this. Generations have been spanked without regret or childhood trauma. If people can’t distinguish between a spanking and a beating - then I guess I can’t discuss anything of nuance with them. But I am unwilling to waste taxpayer resources legislating something that is not abuse and could be devastating families. Personally, I don’t have the energy to use spanking as a one stop solution. Or even a once in a 1000 stops solution. But I will spank if the situation warrants it. To me spanking is just another BS division in the mommy wars. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 There were two big things I said I would do differently than my parents because of how it affected me. One was spanking and the other was not allowing me to sleep on the floor of their room when scared. I did slip up on the spanking thing early on but quit after spanking two or three times. I know youngest was only spanked once and they remember it clearly to this day even though it was only a quick smack to a clothed bottom. I regret it so much. I feel it's one of those when you know better, you do better issues. There were so many better ways to parent. It makes me even more regretful since I now know that youngest is autistic. I don't think my parents were abusive and I know they loved me, but there were better ways. I tried to figure those out and I hope my dc are able to be completely free of spanking if they become parents. Both dh and I have apologized to them as older teens/young adults for ever spanking them. They have been very forgiving and understanding, thankfully. I have lived in several different states (East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, the South) and have seen people in all of them spank in public. It just makes me incredibly sad. I truly feel it's not necessary and the really judgmental part of me feels it's just lazy parenting. Also, for what it's worth, I never slipped up on the sleeping in our room if they were scared. Both of mine did so often when little but completely grew out of it by their pre teen years. No fuss and no tears! So different from what I grew up when I was so afraid at night. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 13 minutes ago, Joker said: Both dh and I have apologized to them as older teens/young adults for ever spanking them. They have been very forgiving and understanding, thankfully. Apologizing to my children when I make mistakes is one of the BIGGEST takeaways from my childhood. My parents never admitted any mistakes and I was never allowed to acknowledge their mistakes either. I just had to swallow it and move on. I am not perfect but I have worked really hard at that one. I want to model behavior that I hope they will emulate. An apology 'round here is not an admission of defeat or failure but hope and progress. 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Since we're all going to inevitably screw up in interacting with each other at some point, I definitely apologize to my kids when I wrong them (usually involves yelling or speaking to them too harshly). I don't want my kids to think there is a point where authority or responsibility over someone means you don't have to apologize to them when you do something wrong. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I don't think people who are opposed to spanking come to that belief out of an inability to distinguish between a light spanking and a beating. Because I think something is wrong, it doesn't follow that I think all things in the same broad or rough catagory (say "physical punishments") are all equally wrong. Saying I think lying is wrong doesn't mean I can't parse the difference between a small well intentioned lie and, for instance, the ongoing web of shameless baldfaced lies neccessary to run a Ponzi scheme. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Saying “know better, do better” is just a back handed why if saying YOU think you know better than whoever you disagree with. Doesn’t make it true or better. Just means you like your opinion. Well we all usually do. I’m a very different parent to kid 11 than kid 1 and I’ve certainly apologized for many things I felt I could have done better with my kids of all ages. I don’t see a parent spank their kid very often. It’s actually very unusual for me to see that. 1 hour ago, StellaM said: Studies using meta analysis are not 'pop psychology'. They are a tool used in psychology, which, as a field of study, does have its own issues, but a meta-analysis is reasonably robust, and a parent could feel reasonably content to be guided by it. From a 2016 meta-analysis: Abstract here If you want to read the whole study, but don't have access, often if you contact the authors they will send you a copy. Thirteen of 17 mean effect sizes were significantly different from zero and all indicated a link between spanking and increased risk for detrimental child outcomes. Effect sizes did not substantially differ between spanking and physical abuse or by study design characteristics. Why take the risk ? Bc I think that’s too often crap science heavily contrived towards a bias. Bc I have no interest in writing them to read the full article. Bc as I previously stated, I think this is just more mommy war garbage bc population at large, over generations, I’m not seeing a swift decline or rise in population of significant long term child outcomes based on spanking or not spanking. I think everyone should parent their own kids and let be otherwise. I am unwilling to inflict quite possibly greater damage on families by trying to make them parent how I think they should unless it’s something I view as physical abuse. I don’t view a spanking as abuse and if it isn’t abuse, I’d prefer to not make it a court of law issue. And frankly, there’s a lot of abuse in our public schools that bothers me a LOT more than the average mom or dad giving their kid a spanking. Every day schools do things to kids that I know damn good and well would send a parent to jail if they did that to their own kid. So unless the mommies want to unite in a war against that, then I’m not interested in any mommy war. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Murphy101 said: This is where I stand. The pop psychology is crap on this. Generations have been spanked without regret or childhood trauma. If people can’t distinguish between a spanking and a beating - then I guess I can’t discuss anything of nuance with them. But I am unwilling to waste taxpayer resources legislating something that is not abuse and could be devastating families. How do you know it is without regret or childhood trauma? Despite having very loving parents who as an adult I realize were doing the absolute best they could given their circumstances, I’m pretty sure my siblings and I were negatively affected by a variety of the dynamics in our home, including spanking (at times on a bare butt with a belt and definitely involving humiliation), lots of parental arguing, etc. Can I personally tease out exactly which things gave all of us low self esteem? Or my sister some pretty serious mental health and relationship issues (obviously not all caused by environmental factors). Or all of us some degree of disordered eating among other issues? No, I can’t. And I don’t think most people can long after the fact because there are so many different experiences and influences, not to mention genetics. So while I think all research needs to be examined critically, I’m much more likely to believe the results of carefully constructed studies than most people’s anecdotal interpretations of their childhoods. Edited October 2, 2019 by Frances 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Frances said: How do you know it is without regret or childhood trauma? Despite having very loving parents who as an adult I realize were doing the absolute best they could given their circumstances, I’m pretty sure my siblings and I were negatively affected by a variety of the dynamics in our home, including spanking (at times on a bare butt with a belt and definitely involving humiliation), lots of parental arguing, etc. Can I personally tease out exactly which things gave all of us low self esteem? Or my sister some pretty serious mental health and relationship issues (obviously not all caused by environmental factors). Or all of us some degree of disordered eating among other issues? No, I can’t. And I don’t think most people can long after the fact because there are so many different experiences and influences. So while I think all research needs to be examined critically, I’m much more likely to believe the results of carefully constructed studies than most people’s anecdotal interpretations of their childhoods. Except that's exactly the point. There are so many influences and variables, it's almost got to be crap to narrow it down to one thing that no one even applies or defines the exact same way in every situation and say definitively that one thing is causing poor outcomes in adults. There's no studies that can say that, no matter how convinced you ate that they are carefully constructed. They can't be that carefully constructed. How many threads are started here by saddened parents because their 19 or 20yos have come to them and told them how their lives were ruined by whatever specific thing they remember as being the cause to all their ills? It doesn't work that way, not on an individual level, and not even if you put a veneer of science over it by claiming it's a meta analysis of every spanking study ever done. You can't even define the terms objectively enough to do a meaningful study because there's no possible way every person in the analysis spanked their kids in the exact same way. There's no way to control for other influences like arguing parents or a crazy uncle or an abusive teacher in the third grade or having to eat oatmeal every day... then subsequently point to spanking as some definitive causal point of downfall on a broad scale. Anyone who says they can do that or that little Judy wouldn't have done drugs in her teens if only her parents hadn't spanked her is making stuff up. No parents are perfect. Everyone is affected negatively by stuff growing up. I would have preferred a rare swat on the butt from my parents who unquestioningly did it because they loved me and thought it was the right thing to do (regardless if some here think I have some mild Stockholm syndrome because it's not possible to spank in a loving form of discipline) to a lot of things I witnessed at friends' houses over the years that had nothing to do with physical punishment, but I'm sure my parents affected me in negative ways that we're all unaware of now. At this point, I can only deal with who I am and the choices I make. My struggles in life may or may not be the same now if my parents raised me differently. I have no way of knowing, and neither does any study. Edited October 2, 2019 by EmseB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, EmseB said: Except that's exactly the point. There are so many influences and variables, it's almost got to be crap to narrow it down to one thing that no one even applies or defines the exact same way in every situation and say definitively that one thing is causing poor outcomes in adults. There's no studies that can say that, no matter how convinced you ate that they are carefully constructed. They can't be that carefully constructed. How many threads are started here by saddened parents because their 19 or 20yos have come to them and told them how their lives were ruined by whatever specific thing they remember as being the cause to all their ills? It doesn't work that way, not on an individual level, and not even if you put a veneer of science over it by claiming it's a meta analysis of every spanking study ever done. You can't even define the terms objectively enough to do a meaningful study because there's no possible way every person in the analysis spanked their kids in the exact same way. There's no way to control for other influences like arguing parents or a crazy uncle or an abusive teacher in the third grade or having to eat oatmeal every day... then subsequently point to spanking as some definitive causal point of downfall on a broad scale. Anyone who says they can do that or that little Judy wouldn't have done drugs in her teens if only her parents hadn't spanked her is making stuff up. So for example, you don’t believe research that shows authoritative parenting generally results in better outcomes than authoritarian or permissive parenting? Or addressing the behavior (e.g. I don’t like it when you lie because then I can’t trust you) is better than using name calling and belittling (you’re a liar and you’ll always be a liar)? Or all of the research behind the Adverse Childhood Experiences work? You don’t think research has taught us anything about parenting because it’s all too complex to tease out the different variables? And just personally speaking, I don’t at all blame my parents for anything from childhood. I absolutely, completely believe they were doing the best they knew how given their circumstances and backgrounds and I never doubted their love for us. My sister pretty much believes exactly the opposite. But we both used those experiences and research to do differently in some areas than our parents did. Because we wanted better for our children. Edited October 2, 2019 by Frances 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) So I had a really weird experience with spanking my kid. My older boy was 4, and had done something bad but I don't remember what. So standard was time out in his room. But that day he asked me if he could be spanked instead. I'm not sure how he knew about it, must have been from a book or something. Anyway, I remember saying, 'well, ok,' and thinking, how do I do this? So I sat down and told him to go over my lap. Like, I don't know how to spank. Like, what am I supposed to do? So I swatted him 3 times and then he got up. I looked at him and asked "did that help?" And he said "I don't know, I think you need to do it again." So at this point I'm thinking that this is getting pretty weird. But, um, ok. So back down he went, three more swats, and then up. "So, did that help? Do you think you won't do xxx again?" and he said "No, I don't think it helped." And that was the end of his experiment. I have no idea what emoji to use, but just the eyes is about as good as I can get 😶 Edited October 2, 2019 by lewelma 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 11 hours ago, EmseB said: I think any form of discipline done in anger is not good, including spanking. Assuming that parents do get angry and frustrated or need to take time to figure out how to deal with some problem behavior, "Go to your room and wait for (non-spanking consequences or punishment)," doesn't carry the same psychological head-screwing that you attribute to spanking? IMO, no. Personally, I don’t “punish” much at all. So if I ever told a kid to go wait for me, it wasn’t so I could try to cook up a punishment. It would be so I can think through the meaning of the problem, and this would be with an older kid. Like if I found some texts on a phone that were not too kosher. I wouldn’t be choosing between punishments. I would be thinking of what we need to talk about and how phone privileges are going to be affected going forward. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 14 hours ago, Quill said: I’m sure our opinions are nearly always shaped by our experiences; it’s probably more often than not a reason most of us homeschool or have homeschooled - one or more things about our own education did not pass muster and we decided to do differently/better with our kids. AFA spanking in an atmosphere of love - and let me say, PeachyDoodle, I really like you on these boards, so I’m not raising a beef with you - IMO, it may be even more devastating psychologically to a child to have love mixed with application of pain. At least the parent who swats a butt because they were at the end of their rope or the child scared them by doing something extremely foolish is following a sort of logic that could make sense to the kid. “Oh, I really scared mommy when I pulled the dog’s tail and he snarled at me!” But I think the message of, “I love you to pieces but I have to beat your butt now so you learn not to pull the dog’s tail” is more crazy-making. It’s teaching them that people who claim to love you are permitted to cause you direct pain if they deem it’s “for your own good.” My parents were devout Christian spankers (though I don’t think my father ever administered any). One of my sisters was spanked very often and always with an implement (ping-pong paddle, wooden spoon); I was rarely spanked because I was a very compliant kid and I was more determined to avoid punishment than I was to cause mischief. IMO, though, my mother was very bad at managing behavior of kids. She thought she was doing it the Biblical way, though, without a doubt. But interactions with her were adversarial over and over. She did not have clever strategies for gaining compliance; she used many threats and punishments. There’s no doubt in my mind that my parents’ poor examples of discipline shaped my own. My sisters did not/do not believe in spanking, either. I have always been confused by never spank in anger. It seems understandable to smack a kid who has just done something dangerous and scared you whereas it seems just cold to hit is cold blood. We are more accepting of murder in hot blood than cold but somehow thoughtfully hurting a child is considered a good thing? Why not thoughtfully do something else? And why send the message that is is OK to cold bloodedly hurt those you love. In NZ corporal punishment is schools was abolished in the 1980's and in the home I think early 2000's? Before I had kids anyway. The police can use discretion. The main advantage is that before when the law was "reasonable force" people didn't take action when they should because it was family business. Unfortunately it doesn't stop people who are plain abusive and kill their kids because they weren't using reasonable force in the first place and it does criminalise many otherwise good parents. And for many many people it has simply encouraged them to try harder and to have happier homes. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 11 hours ago, SKL said: Completely disagree. A rectal thermometer may be a good tool, but I don't think anyone would use it just because it's there. As previously mentioned, those for whom spanking is cultural are taught that spanking is effective if and only if it is used sparingly. I know not one person who ever thought there was some kind of duty to spank or who would choose spanking as the first go-to method vs a last resort. Well, count yourself lucky. All the Proverbs-quoting rod-bearers I have known do think it is their duty to spank. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 37 minutes ago, Quill said: Well, count yourself lucky. All the Proverbs-quoting rod-bearers I have known do think it is their duty to spank. Yeah I know they exist but I haven't met any, not my generation at least. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 11 hours ago, SKL said: The vast majority of spankings are done in private. It lets the family deal with private family stuff and protects the dignity of the child. It is rare that I see anyone spanking in public because it's not culturally normal to do that, except in those immediate tot safety situations where a single swat is unlikely to be even noticed by those around. (Not every kid wails after being spanked.) So yes, the times you do see it, the parent probably is at the end of her rope. That in no way means that all or most spankings are done in anger and frustration. Many of the spankings done in private hit my gross meter, though. Also, there can be an illusion of privacy, like the illusion of privacy my school principal no doubt had as he beat those ADHD boys in the office, day after day, and we, in the main classroom, could hear the *thwack* of the paddle and the desperate pleas and apologies spilling from the children. It absolutely sickens me that this was allowable legally and the parents permitted it. There was no dignity being preserved here. I have wondered many times how three particular boys turned out as adults, because IMO, they were subjected to child abuse almost daily, at the hands of a “religious” leader in charge of their instruction. I can’t see how most spankings *wouldn’t* be done in anger. Because if you aren’t angry (or fearful; experiencing high emotion) what compels hitting a child? I think maybe a person is not in touch with their own emotions very well if they think they don’t spank in anger. One of my SILs spanked her daughter *many* nights over a long period of time (maybe a year or so?) because her daughter did not like green beans, mom made them for dinner (grew them in her own garden, in fact) and her mom thought it was important she not be allowed to “rebel” in this way. So night after night, she was sent to her room to receive the spanking she “chose” rather than eat a food that offended her. Mom did not think she was spanking in anger; she even maintained that only spanking “works” for this problem, despite the fact that, seeing how she had to keep repeating the spankings, I don’t see how it can be said to work. It also set up a gross dynamic with the siblings, which I saw once when the kids stayed over my house and we had dinner. The other kids were excited, hoping the one would act picky about the meal and get a punishment. I simply said I don’t punish about food and all of the kids were welcome to eat or not eat any item I had served. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, maize said: Yeah I know they exist but I haven't met any, not my generation at least. Wow. That surprises me. See above ^ about the green beans. That was just one example I was very familiar with. Back when my kids were small and the Sonlight boards were active, there was a poster on there once who said she spanked her children before bed every night because it *may* be that the child had sinned or had sinful thoughts and so the parent believed she had to “cover” the possibility, whether she knew about the transgression or not. 🥺 That was when I stopped reading those kinds of threads. Also, this isn’t the case where I live, but a friend of mine down south wrote a sort of dissertation to present to the church leaders because they were promoting “Biblical parenting” and the culture of spanking and punishments was so toxic my friend felt she couldn’t go to church functions. So that was during my generation, although I think you are younger than me. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Quill said: Wow. That surprises me. See above ^ about the green beans. That was just one example I was very familiar with. Back when my kids were small and the Sonlight boards were active, there was a poster on there once who said she spanked her children before bed every night because it *may* be that the child had sinned or had sinful thoughts and so the parent believed she had to “cover” the possibility, whether she knew about the transgression or not. 🥺 That was when I stopped reading those kinds of threads. Also, this isn’t the case where I live, but a friend of mine down south wrote a sort of dissertation to present to the church leaders because they were promoting “Biblical parenting” and the culture of spanking and punishments was so toxic my friend felt she couldn’t go to church functions. So that was during my generation, although I think you are younger than me. I read your examples in the other post, I have never in my life seem spanking used in any of those ways. Which suggests to me that, based on different personal experiences, we are not actually talking about the same thing when we use the word spanking at all. Edited October 2, 2019 by maize 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, StellaM said: Those poor kids. Who the f%^& punishes about a child not eating a particular food, anyway ? It's normal that kids do not like a particular food or foods. So long as they are not rude about it, what's the problem? It's not a flipping rebellion, it's about having sensory sensitivity to taste and texture, often heightened in childhood!! Way to put your kids at risk for an eating disorder down the track, imo. It’s interesting you say that, too, because this niece is now grown, is working on a Masters in psychology, and has some kind of health coaching side hustle. Every day she posts on FB, talking about how she had such a screwed up relationship with food a few years ago, was heavy, drank too much and felt sick a lot of the time. She is a fit, non-alcohol using vegan now. I haven’t had any heart-to-hearts with her about the dinner spankings, but it sure would be an interesting conversation to see what she thinks or remembers about that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 The few times I have spanked have all been in the context of immediate behavioral enforcement with a preschool aged child; the point of the spanking is to get the child to take a limit seriously that they otherwise think is a game. Like my child repeatedly running into the road (laughing) or the situation upthread with the child throwing poopy diapers at Mom. I don't yell at my kids. Maybe a harsh voice would get their attention and communicate this is serious just as well as a spank but see to me the harsh voice seems more traumatic. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, maize said: I read your examples in the other post, I have never in my life seem spanking used in any of those ways. Which suggests to me that, based on different personal experiences, we are not actually talking about the same thing when we use the word spanking at all. We are, though. Let me explain why: My own times I swatted my kids, it was never like those stories I’m relating. They were always one or two smacks on the behind with no implement. It probably didn’t even hurt, since I used cloth diapers and their butts were the size of Alaska with padding. 😜 I *was* angry/frustrated or fearful, though. There may not have been steam pouring out of my ears, but I swatted a butt because I was frustrated the kid wouldn’t get with my program; like, I think once it was because a kid was fighting buckling into the car set and another time a kid was kicking during a diaper change. So, do I think these small instances were so bad they should be illegal? No. But I would like for it to be illegal anyway because, were it illegal, many more small-time spankers would give it up altogether, while the crazy-town spankers like that lady on Sonlight might reconsider. IMO, it is very similar to other human rights issues. There were slave owners who were, or believed themselves to be, benevolent masters. And I’m sure there must have been some “benevolent” slave owners who thought the solution to slavery was to just be a benevolent master. There were men who believed themselves to be benevolent heads over their wives. I don’t know if this is true or if it’s urban lore, but I have read that the term “Rule of Thumb” comes from a law that permitted flogging your wife as long as the implement was no bigger around than your thumb. I’m sure there were men who “disciplined” their wives who thought they were amazingly gentle because they only used a small switch and they let her keep her clothes on when he disciplined her. Now we have thankfully come to a place in society in which it seems to most of us here manifestly obvious that men should not be allowed to whip their wives, even if they have a really head-strong wife. Thankfully, we no longer think it is okay to *own* other humans, no matter how supposedly kindly they are kept. Even ways we kept dogs as pets or trained horses have been improved upon drastically in the last several decades and ways that my mother would have thought were normal for house-training a puppy are recognized as ineffective and mean-spirited. (Remember rubbing a puppy’s nose in his poop and then beating him? I do!) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Quill said: We are, though. Let me explain why: My own times I swatted my kids, it was never like those stories I’m relating. They were always one or two smacks on the behind with no implement. It probably didn’t even hurt, since I used cloth diapers and their butts were the size of Alaska with padding. 😜 I *was* angry/frustrated or fearful, though. There may not have been steam pouring out of my ears, but I swatted a butt because I was frustrated the kid wouldn’t get with my program; like, I think once it was because a kid was fighting buckling into the car set and another time a kid was kicking during a diaper change. So, do I think these small instances were so bad they should be illegal? No. But I would like for it to be illegal anyway because, were it illegal, many more small-time spankers would give it up altogether, while the crazy-town spankers like that lady on Sonlight might reconsider. IMO, it is very similar to other human rights issues. There were slave owners who were, or believed themselves to be, benevolent masters. And I’m sure there must have been some “benevolent” slave owners who thought the solution to slavery was to just be a benevolent master. There were men who believed themselves to be benevolent heads over their wives. I don’t know if this is true or if it’s urban lore, but I have read that the term “Rule of Thumb” comes from a law that permitted flogging your wife as long as the implement was no bigger around than your thumb. I’m sure there were men who “disciplined” their wives who thought they were amazingly gentle because they only used a small switch and they let her keep her clothes on when he disciplined her. Now we have thankfully come to a place in society in which it seems to most of us here manifestly obvious that men should not be allowed to whip their wives, even if they have a really head-strong wife. Thankfully, we no longer think it is okay to *own* other humans, no matter how supposedly kindly they are kept. Even ways we kept dogs as pets or trained horses have been improved upon drastically in the last several decades and ways that my mother would have thought were normal for house-training a puppy are recognized as ineffective and mean-spirited. (Remember rubbing a puppy’s nose in his poop and then beating him? I do!) So, kid fighting getting buckled into a car seat--when we actually have to go somewhere and a kid persists in fighting I will resort to forcefully holding them down and buckling them in. Kid screams and cries. Seems more traumatic to the kid than a spanking. I don't spank in situations like that because if my kid is fighting getting into a carseat they are usually genuinely upset already, not playing games; spanking would be ineffective. If kid were fighting the carseat as a let's resist Mommy game a spank might be useful and less traumatic than being physically held down and forced into the seat. But again this is what flummoxes me about "any spanking is horrible and traumatic"--it is stuff like being forced into a carseat that is horrible and traumatic to my kids. Spankings don't register anywhere close. Honestly I've been traumatized myself by the carseat issue over the years, I wonder sometimes if an entire generation of kids is going to face long-term psychological fall-out from carseat restraints. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 39 minutes ago, maize said: So, kid fighting getting buckled into a car seat--when we actually have to go somewhere and a kid persists in fighting I will resort to forcefully holding them down and buckling them in. Kid screams and cries. Seems more traumatic to the kid than a spanking. I don't spank in situations like that because if my kid is fighting getting into a carseat they are usually genuinely upset already, not playing games; spanking would be ineffective. If kid were fighting the carseat as a let's resist Mommy game a spank might be useful and less traumatic than being physically held down and forced into the seat. But again this is what flummoxes me about "any spanking is horrible and traumatic"--it is stuff like being forced into a carseat that is horrible and traumatic to my kids. Spankings don't register anywhere close. Honestly I've been traumatized myself by the carseat issue over the years, I wonder sometimes if an entire generation of kids is going to face long-term psychological fall-out from carseat restraints. I had a kid who fought the car seat for what seemed like forever, but it was probably about six months of time. I did not force him in (usually - I’m not going to pretend I always chose the best, least forceful manner of getting it accomplished). One thing I remember doing is holding both of his arms firmly (not the Vulcan death-grip) and said something like, “Buddy, I know you don’t like the seat or the buckles but we absolutely cannot go anywhere in the car until you are buckled in because that’s what’s safest. So I’m sorry you don’t like it, but it has to happen so let’s not have a struggle about it.” I’m not saying this snapped him into a super-compliant child who happily agreed, but it diffused the upset (his and mine) long enough to get the buckles on. It took some months for him to learn and accept that the buckles were non-negotiable and were absolutely going on no matter what. He was my most rigid child; I had him evaluated multiple times because he was so difficult about certain things like this. I thought he was on the spectrum. (He’s not.) I see car seats as instructive, though, about what happens when something is made a universal law rather than left up to parental judgement. There were lots of parents who decried making car seats a law because, after all, “My mom never used a car seat and I’m fine! My mom just tossed us on the floor of the station wagon! Why does the government think it has to tell us how to keep our kids safe in the car? Probably getting kickbacks from the car seat manufacturers...” I agree with whichever poster said it makes a societal norm, having the law. Doesn’t mean everyone will comply. But more people will comply, and eventually, a new generation of parents cannot imagine that anyone ever thought it was okay to hold a kid on your lap or place them in a moses basket on the seat. Compliance with car seat becomes close to 100%. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, StellaM said: Animal rights were recognised before children's rights, iirc. Protections in law for your animals preceded protections in law for children. In the states, the first child cruelty case was brought by the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. It was only after that that a society for the prevention of cruelty to children was founded. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) My kids (some of them at least) seem to have an antipathy towards carseats that nothing else compares to. There is no way to sweet talk or bribe my current toddler into just accepting the seat if he has set his mind against it. And then there was the one who was so upset by being placed in her seat she would lose the ability to breathe--we were stuck in a parking lot once for forty-five minutes because she would have a breath-holding spell and pass out every time I put her back in her seat. And there was the kid who screamed almost non-stop from Texas to California during a cross country move. There's a company that has designed a restraint harness in the form of a vest that works in the place of a booster, meets standards for a car child restraint. I've ordered three of them in the hopes my kids might find them more acceptable. Edited October 2, 2019 by maize Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 18 minutes ago, maize said: My kids (some of them at least) seem to have an antipathy towards carseats that nothing else compares to. There is no way to sweet talk or bribe my current toddler into just accepting the seat if he has set his mind against it. And then there was the one who was so upset by being placed in her seat she would lose the ability to breathe--we were stuck in a parking lot once for forty-five minutes because she would have a breath-holding spell and pass out every time I put her back in her seat. And there was the kid who screamed almost non-stop from Texas to California during a cross country move. There's a company that has designed a restraint harness in the form of a vest that works in the place of a booster, meets standards for a car child restraint. I've ordered three of them in the hopes my kids might find them more acceptable. We’ve used the vest and it was helpful. I hope it works for you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, maize said: My kids (some of them at least) seem to have an antipathy towards carseats that nothing else compares to. There is no way to sweet talk or bribe my current toddler into just accepting the seat if he has set his mind against it. And then there was the one who was so upset by being placed in her seat she would lose the ability to breathe--we were stuck in a parking lot once for forty-five minutes because she would have a breath-holding spell and pass out every time I put her back in her seat. And there was the kid who screamed almost non-stop from Texas to California during a cross country move. There's a company that has designed a restraint harness in the form of a vest that works in the place of a booster, meets standards for a car child restraint. I've ordered three of them in the hopes my kids might find them more acceptable. I can’t, obviously, know your kid or know the dynamic with the car seat. I want to include this as food for thought, though: every action has a reaction. One of the little woo-woo quotes I kept in mind often when my kids were little was this: what you focus on expands. So, with the car seat (or the bath tub or bedtime or diaper changes or the many other adversity points with that child), I would focus on de-escalating the fraught situation. Kids habituate to power struggle points where it becomes a battle of wills: who can be more forceful about the car seat, me or mom? I didn’t want to perpetuate this kind of relationship with my kids because, for one thing, I knew there would come a day when their strength and agility would outmatch me. For two, I knew there would come a day where physical force was just not a possibility anymore. I know it seems, in some instances, laughable when a parent is speaking rationally with their irrationally-behaving child. I know this option has been widely mocked by more authoritarian parents, or even through media. But IMO, it is training kids to eventually be able to do what they cannot presently do: work through a conflict of needs using only their words. My parents, I’m sorry to say, did not teach me conflict resolution skills. Their parenting was based on a combination of avoidance and power threats. I have had to learn those skills as an adult and I am still learning, at 48, how to improve a conflict situation. In my twenties, I had no skills against my practically abusive boss when he was a total jerk to me. All I knew to do was cry, so he would feel like a heel, or rage about the room so maybe he would not pick on me more. IMO, this was a direct result of an upbringing where “negotiating” with children was scoffed at. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 14 hours ago, maize said: Some of this must be regional, I'm not sure I have ever seen a child being spanked in public and I have never had a parent tell me I need to spank a child who was acting up. Similar here. I have very very rarely seen a kid spanked in public - probably twice in my life, and one of those times the kid had just run in front of a truck and the mom was freaked out. I have also never heard anyone tell anyone in public that they should spank their kids. I have heard of it happening in some past era, but never seen it in my 52 years. And I live in a place were pretty much everyone believes spanking is a legitimate tool in one's discipline toolkit. So yeah, probably regional / cultural. I am surprised it is happening on the West Coast, but then again, I don't live there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I think it should be legal, for in schools and parents. BUT, I also think it should be a rare exception to be used. I think we would do better to give parents more resources for help with parenting and less judgements. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, Katy said: I don't think anyone answered @Quill's question up thread about foster parents. Spanking or any form of corporal punishment, even not allowing dessert, is not allowed of foster children in any state in the USA. While licensing & home safety guidelines vary based on the state and if you're getting licensed by a private agency or the county, guidelines regarding punishment are pretty clear on a federal level, and the training is increasingly standardized. I generally stay out of the spanking debates, but I'm not sure that what happens with foster kids can be extrapolated to the general population. Many of the kids who have been in my home had severe trauma, and with my background I try to take medically fragile kids rather than high trauma kids. I mean neglect followed by being beaten to the point of needing hospitalization many times, weren't yanked from the home until CPS had been called on the family more than 30 times, including by surgeons and the police trauma. I had one three year old I took to the walk in clinic with an ear infection and the doctor brought in a medical records folder two inches thick and scowled at me until I identified myself as a foster parent. I took videos of that child self-harming repeatedly to make sure I wouldn't be blamed for the bruises. What's going on in those kids is so horrifying that any sort of physical discipline whatsoever would not help. It would just traumatize them further. I'm not sure that's true of most children, raised in more typical environments. But IME with most pre-verbal toddlers redirecting is enough. I did have one of my sons go through a phase when he thought it was hilarious to pelt me with poopy diapers during changes, and nothing I could think of (or anything my sibling the child therapist could think of) was enough. I finally warned him if he tried that again he was going to get a spanking, and when he did I swatted him on the butt. He got angry but stopped, and tried again about a week later. That time tears came to his eyes but he never did it again. This child is still so sensitive to sounds and verbal tones that I have to be careful not to watch the news in his presence, because if some politician does something I consider rant-worthy and I snark at the TV he'll burst into sobs and assume I'm angry at him. I've never been that angry at him, so I'm not sure where that came from. Sometimes joking with DH in a snarky way has made him burst into tears. He is very sensitive to praise or criticism, but when it came to laughing and pelting mom with poop neither the praise for not doing it or the harsh tone I used when he did made a difference. I wasn't very happy with myself for resorting to a swat, but I was happy that the behavior ended. And similar to something Jordan Petersen said about never letting your children do anything that makes you dislike them, I was relieved that I wasn't resenting him any longer. Because having to take multiple showers every day got very old and very annoying fast, and I was resenting him, and he's normally a wonderfully likeable, flirtatious and charming kid. I'm not sure in the long run that resenting my child wouldn't have been much more damaging than the two swats on the butt he got. But a swat that wasn't enough to make a pink mark is worlds away from boards and switches, so idk. I certainly think it should be a last resort, but I can't say I'm that sorry I did it. And I in no way think that it would in any state be considered abuse, but if I'd let myself get so angry at him I started yelling I DO think that would be considered verbal abuse, at least in most states I've lived. Not that I've never lost it on my kids, but there's a difference between general yelling and personal yelling. Re foster parent rules - I am aware they are not allowed to spank. But that doesn't actually mean they never spank. Probably most of them try not to and many do not - just like many bio parents do not - but I would bet money that a significant % of foster parents have in fact spanked their wee tot foster children's butts at some time or other. How you would prove it one way or another, I don't know. I agree with your other comments. Edited October 2, 2019 by SKL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, Quill said: I can’t, obviously, know your kid or know the dynamic with the car seat. I want to include this as food for thought, though: every action has a reaction. One of the little woo-woo quotes I kept in mind often when my kids were little was this: what you focus on expands. So, with the car seat (or the bath tub or bedtime or diaper changes or the many other adversity points with that child), I would focus on de-escalating the fraught situation. Kids habituate to power struggle points where it becomes a battle of wills: who can be more forceful about the car seat, me or mom? I didn’t want to perpetuate this kind of relationship with my kids because, for one thing, I knew there would come a day when their strength and agility would outmatch me. For two, I knew there would come a day where physical force was just not a possibility anymore. I know it seems, in some instances, laughable when a parent is speaking rationally with their irrationally-behaving child. I know this option has been widely mocked by more authoritarian parents, or even through media. But IMO, it is training kids to eventually be able to do what they cannot presently do: work through a conflict of needs using only their words. My parents, I’m sorry to say, did not teach me conflict resolution skills. Their parenting was based on a combination of avoidance and power threats. I have had to learn those skills as an adult and I am still learning, at 48, how to improve a conflict situation. In my twenties, I had no skills against my practically abusive boss when he was a total jerk to me. All I knew to do was cry, so he would feel like a heel, or rage about the room so maybe he would not pick on me more. IMO, this was a direct result of an upbringing where “negotiating” with children was scoffed at. I'm very much a don't power struggle with kids mom. The car seat is just a non-negotiable. I promise I am very matter of fact about it, and I'm all about reasoning with kids when possible. I'm also fine with hanging out until a child calms down except when things are urgent (i.e. another child needing to be picked up after an activity where they can't wait at the venue). Carseat issues aren't an every time we get in the car thing (well, one child as baby did scream every single time, starting with the ride home from the hospital. Once we stopped halfway across town and bought a new carseat hoping a different seat would help. It didn't.) It's been a frequent enough issue though across the years with various children that I am convinced carseats ought to rightfully be labeled as child torture devices. This was hardest when I lived where we had to drive to get anywhere and I didn't have any children old enough to leave home to babysit; the only way for me to leave the house was to get everyone in the car. These days I only occasionally have to take everyone with me because I have children old enough to hold down the fort at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) I can see reason I guess in laws limiting spanking if they do prevent most cases of severe beating. I'm sure I wouldn't spank if it were illegal but I don't think that would have any benefit to my children; it would just be one more challenge I have to work around like the requirement for kids to ride in carseats (though at least I recognize a safety component for my own kids in that). So my kid who was playing at running into the street--I would have had to pick him up and carry him kicking and screaming back to the house (while pushing the baby in the stroller of course) and not taken him on any more walks until he was old enough to reason through not running into the road. Not better for the child in question. Or his siblings who also would have been deprived of walks. Edited October 2, 2019 by maize Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 7 hours ago, lewelma said: So I had a really weird experience with spanking my kid. My older boy was 4, and had done something bad but I don't remember what. So standard was time out in his room. But that day he asked me if he could be spanked instead. I'm not sure how he knew about it, must have been from a book or something. Anyway, I remember saying, 'well, ok,' and thinking, how do I do this? So I sat down and told him to go over my lap. Like, I don't know how to spank. Like, what am I supposed to do? So I swatted him 3 times and then he got up. I looked at him and asked "did that help?" And he said "I don't know, I think you need to do it again." So at this point I'm thinking that this is getting pretty weird. But, um, ok. So back down he went, three more swats, and then up. "So, did that help? Do you think you won't do xxx again?" and he said "No, I don't think it helped." And that was the end of his experiment. I have no idea what emoji to use, but just the eyes is about as good as I can get 😶 LOL. But seriously, I remember when I was a kid wishing I could have a spanking and get it over with, vs. have my mom and dad arguing over whether I was a little brat who know better or an innocent who didn't understand. (Truth could have been either one, but I hated being the cause of my parents' arguing.) I quit dreading spankings when I realized my mom definitely would not kill or maim me, which was pretty young. (FTR my mom claims she could count on one hand the number of times she spanked me. I don't know - I just know I got it enough for it to be a deterrent.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 What's with the butt obsession, though? Why are smacks to the butt more effective, or smacks to the arm somehow worse? I don't buy that it's just because the butt is 'padded' - you could just smack them comparatively lighter if so, yet the butt is so universal that it's the de facto definition of spanking. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Quill said: Many of the spankings done in private hit my gross meter, though. Also, there can be an illusion of privacy, like the illusion of privacy my school principal no doubt had as he beat those ADHD boys in the office, day after day, and we, in the main classroom, could hear the *thwack* of the paddle and the desperate pleas and apologies spilling from the children. It absolutely sickens me that this was allowable legally and the parents permitted it. There was no dignity being preserved here. I have wondered many times how three particular boys turned out as adults, because IMO, they were subjected to child abuse almost daily, at the hands of a “religious” leader in charge of their instruction. I can’t see how most spankings *wouldn’t* be done in anger. Because if you aren’t angry (or fearful; experiencing high emotion) what compels hitting a child? I think maybe a person is not in touch with their own emotions very well if they think they don’t spank in anger. One of my SILs spanked her daughter *many* nights over a long period of time (maybe a year or so?) because her daughter did not like green beans, mom made them for dinner (grew them in her own garden, in fact) and her mom thought it was important she not be allowed to “rebel” in this way. So night after night, she was sent to her room to receive the spanking she “chose” rather than eat a food that offended her. Mom did not think she was spanking in anger; she even maintained that only spanking “works” for this problem, despite the fact that, seeing how she had to keep repeating the spankings, I don’t see how it can be said to work. It also set up a gross dynamic with the siblings, which I saw once when the kids stayed over my house and we had dinner. The other kids were excited, hoping the one would act picky about the meal and get a punishment. I simply said I don’t punish about food and all of the kids were welcome to eat or not eat any item I had served. Well your example is an extreme. If she wasn't allowed to spank her kids, what would she do instead? Probably some other inappropriate thing. Being aware of some extremes that are wrong does not make the underlying practice, done moderately, wrong. I mean I have heard of so-called "homeschoolers" who do all manner of abuse and neglect, but I don't think it's fair to say homeschooling is wrong / immoral / should be illegal because it can be taken to extremes. Most people don't go around telling you all the times they spanked reasonably. It is a private matter. Why would I go tell all my friends and acquaintances about my home discipline? I wasn't talking about school discipline. I was talking about parental discipline only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, katilac said: What's with the butt obsession, though? Why are smacks to the butt more effective, or smacks to the arm somehow worse? I don't buy that it's just because the butt is 'padded' - you could just smack them comparatively lighter if so, yet the butt is so universal that it's the de facto definition of spanking. It's definitely the place least likely to cause permanent harm, and that is because of padding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 16 minutes ago, SKL said: Well your example is an extreme. If she wasn't allowed to spank her kids, what would she do instead? Probably some other inappropriate thing. Being aware of some extremes that are wrong does not make the underlying practice, done moderately, wrong. I mean I have heard of so-called "homeschoolers" who do all manner of abuse and neglect, but I don't think it's fair to say homeschooling is wrong / immoral / should be illegal because it can be taken to extremes. Most people don't go around telling you all the times they spanked reasonably. It is a private matter. Why would I go tell all my friends and acquaintances about my home discipline? I wasn't talking about school discipline. I was talking about parental discipline only. If she were not allowed to spank her kids, she would either do some other inappropriate thing or she would learn better skills. That is the point I am making with other examples of things throughout history. Normal men now grow up knowing there is never any instance where it is acceptable to paddle, slap or switch their wives or partners. Do some still do those things? Yes. Is it a deterrent for the majority of men. Also yes. Homeschooling is an interesting example. In my early years of homeschooling, I thought all laws to regulate homeschooling were govt over-reach. Nanny state. But I don’t think that anymore, because I see that, where there are low regulations or big loopholes, some parents *do* completely fail to educate their children appropriately. I am now in favor of some govt overseeing of homeschooling. Some parents do a completely crap job of it and the child should not suffer for that, IMO. IME, most parents don’t even talk about how they discipline their children at all. But I do see evidence of it in certain settings, like at co-op. Fair enough if you weren’t talking about school discipline. Home discipline could have the same problem, though, unless you have only one child. I related here how I saw my niece and nephew actually get excited, like they were going to witness some drama, when they thought their picky sister might refuse the dinner I made. I know, from my SIL talking about it, that my niece was sent to her room to receive her spanking. So it was “private.” But the siblings knew what was happening and possibly heard; I don’t know if it was severe enough to be loud or not. I think the negative effect on the siblings is at least sometimes harmful as well. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 3 hours ago, maize said: So, kid fighting getting buckled into a car seat--when we actually have to go somewhere and a kid persists in fighting I will resort to forcefully holding them down and buckling them in. Kid screams and cries. Seems more traumatic to the kid than a spanking. I don't spank in situations like that because if my kid is fighting getting into a carseat they are usually genuinely upset already, not playing games; spanking would be ineffective. If kid were fighting the carseat as a let's resist Mommy game a spank might be useful and less traumatic than being physically held down and forced into the seat. But again this is what flummoxes me about "any spanking is horrible and traumatic"--it is stuff like being forced into a carseat that is horrible and traumatic to my kids. Spankings don't register anywhere close. Honestly I've been traumatized myself by the carseat issue over the years, I wonder sometimes if an entire generation of kids is going to face long-term psychological fall-out from carseat restraints. The car seat example is an interesting one. One of my kids was normally very quiet and pleasant, but also very stubborn. One day she thought it was a good idea to pitch a fuss over being put into her car seat. I gave her one non-dramatic swat in the butt while saying "no." That was literally the last time any fuss was made over a car seat (or any other seat) in my family. There were no tears, no screams, no fears, no therapy sessions. No mama headaches or car accidents or inability to go where we needed to go. Absolutely zero regret. And so many of you want that scene to be illegal. Yet another reason I am thankful that my toddler-raising days are over. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 46 minutes ago, SKL said: Well your example is an extreme. If she wasn't allowed to spank her kids, what would she do instead? Probably some other inappropriate thing. Being aware of some extremes that are wrong does not make the underlying practice, done moderately, wrong. I mean I have heard of so-called "homeschoolers" who do all manner of abuse and neglect, but I don't think it's fair to say homeschooling is wrong / immoral / should be illegal because it can be taken to extremes. Most people don't go around telling you all the times they spanked reasonably. It is a private matter. Why would I go tell all my friends and acquaintances about my home discipline? I wasn't talking about school discipline. I was talking about parental discipline only. I’ll never forget a discussion at a homeschool mom’s group during my early years of homeschooling. A very religious parent of four whose husband was a psychology professor carefully explained their controlled method of spanking. It literally made me feel sick. It actually sounded far worse that the spankings done in or fear or anger in my childhood home. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 30 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said: Yeah, not over bones or internal organs. 36 minutes ago, Katy said: It's definitely the place least likely to cause permanent harm, and that is because of padding. How the heck hard are people spanking kids that they have to worry about internal organs or permanent harm? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Quill said: I agree with whichever poster said it makes a societal norm, having the law. Doesn’t mean everyone will comply. But more people will comply, and eventually, a new generation of parents cannot imagine that anyone ever thought it was okay .... If this becomes a law, I hope you realize how it's going to be enforced - just like every other law. It will disproportionately hurt poor families and children. The people with money - who are already statistically less likely to spank - probably in part because they have fewer kids and can afford more help with their kids - will get off thanks to their access to legal options. Married parents will be able to leave their kid with the other spouse if they get carted off over a spanking violation. But poor parents - especially single moms - will bear the brunt of this law. And if you think separating children from their parents over something that is NOT ABUSE is somehow a good idea, please study up on the trauma effects of child custody disruptions. It makes no sense to say we should have a law but not enforce it. If there is a law, it will be enforced, and the poor kids in broken families will be the ones punished. If you want to convince people not to spank, there are other ways to do it. You can see lots of difference over the decades. Let that be enough. It is already illegal to abuse children. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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