S/O Spanking?

[Pen]

Is spanking legal where you are? Corporal punishment in schools?  Do you think it should be? Or should not be?  Or “it depends? “

https://www.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/sweden-punishment-ban/index.html

 

[HomeAgain]

Corporal punishment was outlawed in our main school district at our last home but still very legal in my oldest's school district.  It's not legal here and I have no idea about spanking.

Getting rid of it requires parents to learn effective teaching techniques and developmental stages of their kids.  It's not going to be possible until we make a community effort - and if the community is going to be okay with spanking in schools then it's going to be an uphill battle.

ETA: emotional abuse can be just as bad, if not worse, and that will take time to remove from our communities, too. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by HomeAgain

[Laura Corin]

A bill to outlaw smacking children in any circumstances is going through the Scottish legislature. I've never hit a child, and I'm pleased about the law.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Laura Corin

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, Pen said:

Is spanking legal where you are? Corporal punishment in schools?  Do you think it should be? Or should not be?  Or “it depends? “

https://www.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/sweden-punishment-ban/index.html

 

I don’t know if it’s legal but yes definitely not district policy, nor would I ever allow it.

[Guest]

Parents are legally permitted to spank their own children here. (I think there may be some technicalities I have never bothered to learn, like age or implements, but I am not philosophically a spanker.) Public schools outlawed it here many years ago, thank the gods. The “Christian” school I attended as a child practiced corporal punishment with a thick paddle. The mere memory of other kids being beaten in the principal’s office and their screams and pleas makes me sick. 

I definitely think no one but the parent should be legally allowed and even then, I wouldn’t be sad were it completely banned. Most places around here, it is socially strongly frowned upon so there is quite a bit of public peer pressure not to swat and spank kids. I don’t really ever see it, like at a park or grocery store anymore. 

[Farrar]

Prohibited in schools here in 1977. So a relatively early home rule act. Presumably the federal government wanted our schools to hit our kids. (That probably sounds snarky, but I'm actually quite serious.)

I have mixed feelings about outlawing parents spanking just because of how that would practically work. But I'm solidly against parents actually spanking. We have the data. It's not good for kids.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Farrar

[Guest]

It is still legal here in schools, but most schools no longer do it-having said that, it was still practiced when I started teaching here, in the mid 1990's. After the first time I took a girl to the office for fighting and ended up having to witness her paddling, I did my best to avoid sending a kid to the office for anything that didn't require a bandaid. Fortunately, my next principal was a former Marine who handled behavior without resorting to violence, and about 2000, the district banned it. There are still charters and private schools that use it, though. And based on the response my former principal had, apparently a lot of parents would have rather had their child paddled vs spending a week raking leaves or moving books and dusting shelves. 

[rebcoola]

It’s legal here as long without implements and no marks left.  It’s outlawed schools don’t know the dates but my dad being the only male on staff was the official paddler and when the laws changed he was given the paddled signed by the students.  It is a 1/2 inch thick paddle with holes drilled in it!!! My parents still have it and we often joke people are going to be paddled but no one ever has been in my family.

[Katy]

This is a few years old but as of 2016 it was legal in 19 states.   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766273/

I generally don't think it's a good idea.  I remember the school district in my hometown in Florida had it as an option (at least as of 20 years ago).  High school kids could either choose a week of detention or a paddle.  Most chose the paddle because it was over fast and didn't interfere with sports practices the way detention did and, at least in the opinion of the kids I heard, "Didn't actually hurt."

On the other hand, I think a lot of school administrators are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to discipline issues.  I saw something on the news once about a school district that was being sued because of unfair disciplinary actions for a disabled adult child, but students at the school the parents wanted him placed at had restraining orders against him so they said they had no choice but to bus him to a school the parents didn't want him at because of staffing issues. It all seemed so complicated the school district let the lawyers decide what they should do.

[LucyStoner]

It is not legal in schools here. 

The law for parents is that physical discipline must be reasonable and moderate.  Punching, hitting in the face, throwing, kicking, cutting or burning (!?) is specifically illegal, as is shaking any child under 3.  

While it is not illegal, I have seen spanking be used in family law cases here as evidence of poor parenting skills.  Foster parents aren’t allowed to.  And you will fail the home study for adoption here if you endorse physical punishment.  

I’m of the mind that if it constitutes assault against an adult or someone else’s child, it shouldn’t cease to be assault because it is your own child.  I don’t know how practical it is to outlaw it due to enforcement.  

Edited September 30, 2019 by LucyStoner

[katilac]

It is up to the local district in my state. None of the districts in my metro area allow it, about 15% of schools statewide did a few years ago (most recent info). 

Some of the private schools do, particularly non-denominational Christian of the fundamentalist flavor. 

Very few of the Catholic schools have done so in recent memory, but it was still a very big deal when the new archbishop banned it about 8 years ago. There was one high school in particular that battled it to the bitter end, with full parental support for it even though several students had actually wound up at the hospital. Not the doctor, the hospital. It was complicated for racial and cultural reasons, but I was still pretty surprised at how long and hard parents fought to allow teachers to whack their kids with a solid wood board. 

Spanking by parents is legal in Louisiana - it's actually referred to as physical discipline and there is no ban on implements, so it doesn't have to be 'spanking' at all and you could reasonably use a switch or such as long as you don't seriously endanger the health of the child. That's not endanger, but seriously endanger, so not a great law or wording. Generally speaking, if you go at them with a switch or cord and someone reports it, you will get arrested. 

Reducing corporal punishment in the deep south is a tough job. 

 

[aaplank]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

The “Christian” school I attended as a child practiced corporal punishment with a thick paddle. The mere memory of other kids being beaten in the principal’s office and their screams and pleas makes me sick. 

OMG this is my experience as well!  Over 30 years later and I'm still sickened. I developed an ulcer in the 3rd grade from being at that school. I was terrified of getting hit with the principal's paddle. He had drilled holes into it to make it hurt more. The teachers had paddles hanging from their blackboards to threaten us to behave. 

[AmandaVT]

Not legal here or in the state where I grew up. I work in a public school and can't imagine any student getting hit as a punishment. 😳

[historically accurate]

Illegal in public schools since early 90s. Don't know about private schools. Still legal in house with implements as long as it is not "excessive". I just looked it up - I don't spank so I never bothered to know. I don't recall anyone being spanked in schools growing up though, so it must've been pretty rare in my area (although I didn't hang around kids who were in trouble often). 

I wasn't ever spanked, although I do remember my brother being spanked one time by my father, and subsequently my mother letting my dad have it for doing so. So, I grew up in a non-spanking family. Weirdly, we had a paddle hanging on the kitchen wall in one house though - it had the "Train up a child" bible verse on it. We attended a pretty conservative Christian church (Pentecostal) - maybe it was there "for show" for when the church members visited? DH was on the fence (he was spanked as a child), but I let him know it wasn't on the table when the kids came, and he agreed. 

I'd be for a total ban, but I know many parents who spank who would not want to change disciplinary tactics. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by beckyjo

[prairiewindmomma]

When we lived in Texas, spanking in schools was legal. We had to sign a form to expressly forbid spanking.  

Spanking by a parent is legal in my current state. I rather wish it wasn't. I think hitting someone else is rather bad, even if done in the name of trying to achieve behavioral compliance. 

[prairiewindmomma]

FWIW, spanking was legal and practiced in the public elementary school I attended.  It was forbidden by the district in my junior high years.

I do remember watching other children be paddled with a paddle as I waited to get a sweet from the same principal as a reward for something. I still feel a pit in my stomach thinking about it.

[SKL]

Legal for parents to do it here.  IMO this is appropriate.

I thought they changed the rules recently for schools in our state.  It was legal in schools until recent decades.  However, public schools stopped spanking at least several decades ago here, law or no law.

I used to be a proponent of schools having the right (with parental permission).  But when my kid had a 1st grade teacher who was really unreasonable, I changed my mind about that.  You hear horror stories, and while I know they are weird exceptions, I can't seem to find a reason why schools need to be able to hit kids.  There are other ways to deal with bad behavior.

[SKL]

I should add that my childhood school (a Lutheran school) did use corporal punishment.  I received more than my fair share of paddlings.  Most of the teachers didn't really hurt the kids, and the one who did almost never paddled girls.  Mostly it was an indignity to be paddled, especially since a "witness" was required.  But I'm not sorry my kids don't have this experience at school.

[SKL]

It's always interesting to see threads like this, where almost everyone says spanking is always wrong.  The stats continue to say that the vast majority of American parents spank or believe in spanking, and I know it isn't unpopular worldwide either.  I've also seen people say that they have spanked but they don't think other parents should be allowed to spank.

I think it's OK for parents to have spanking as a legal option in case they feel it is needed.  It's also great if they can successfully discipline a child without spanking.  I also think that some non-contact punishments can be much more inhumane than a reasonable spanking.

[Liz CA]

9 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

It’s not legal in schools here, and even as someone who doesn’t have an issue with occasional swats for children by mom and dad I am a hard NO on it in schools, or by anyone other than a parent or legal guardian.  

 

Exactly. IMHO, there is also an age limit. Spanking at school age usually produces more resentment because by this time the child is typically able to comprehend reasoning. And while they may comprehend reasoning of course it does not guarantee that they will follow the rules but by this age there are other discipline methods as or more effective. Just my 5 cents.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Liz CA

[Serenade]

7 hours ago, SKL said:

I also think that some non-contact punishments can be much more inhumane than a reasonable spanking.

 

This is definitely true.

[Tanaqui]

8 hours ago, SKL said:

It's always interesting to see threads like this, where almost everyone says spanking is always wrong.  The stats continue to say that the vast majority of American parents spank or believe in spanking, and I know it isn't unpopular worldwide either.  I've also seen people say that they have spanked but they don't think other parents should be allowed to spank.

 

The vast majority of American parents also don't homeschool, and yet most people here either do or have done so for some or all of at least one child's education. Did you think that this forum was a particularly representative sample?

[SKL]

10 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

The vast majority of American parents also don't homeschool, and yet most people here either do or have done so for some or all of at least one child's education. Did you think that this forum was a particularly representative sample?

I see similar results on non-homeschool related parenting sites though.  It makes me wonder.

[SKL]

I saw a study summary that said spanking produces more negative than positive results when it's the "go to" method, but, when used as a back-up / last resort method in conjunction with non-physical discipline, it produces less negative outcomes compared to other methods.  This is consistent with what I've observed.  (But I live in the Midwest, where spanking is a normal part of the culture.  The result might be different if a family's discipline method were culturally abnormal.)

I think it's a complex issue really.  I think trying to make it sound simple or obvious is unhelpful.

[PeachyDoodle]

Not sure if it is still legal in schools here. It's not used often, if it is. I remember there being rumors in elementary school that this or that kid got a spanking when he (usually it was a he) was sent to the principal's office. But such punishments were never carried out in the hearing of other students, if they were at all.

My fourth-grade teacher had one of those giant paddles like they hold up at golf tournaments hanging on the wall. Those usually say something like, "Quiet, please," but hers said, "Hush, Y'all." That's what we called it too. But it never came down, even though occasionally she would teasingly admonish a mischievous kid that she might have to use it.

Unlike most folks here (or so it seems) I am not anti-spanking by parents, and I don't think it should be illegal. It's not a form of punishment we have used often in our home, but that is part of its effectiveness. Like most forms of parental discipline, it works best when not administered in the throes of anger or frustration. Almost any form of discipline can cross the line into abuse if the parent loses control. I don't think that spanking is inherently abusive, nor do I think it necessarily teaches kids to hit, etc. Children aren't stupid, and they understand the difference between loving discipline and lashing out -- provided those differences are shown to them. And as SKL pointed out, some non-contact punishments can be even worse.

Which makes me wonder... how much of our opinion on a subject like this is shaped by our own experiences? Both dh and I were spanked growing up (him probably more than me, lol). But both our families administered corporal punishment (and any punishment, really) in a controlled manner and followed with assurance of love and forgiveness. We never questioned whether our parents loved us, or thought they might want to hurt us. Not that our parents never lost their tempers, etc. And not that we've never lost ours. We certainly have. But overall, we were never afraid of our parents or worried that they would spiral out of control. And I don't think our kids are worried either. Now that they are older, we haven't spanked in a long time. I can certainly see how the memory of other children pleading for a spanking to stop would leave a person with a different perception though. And I'm definitely not comfortable with allowing adults outside the home to spank.

[Tanaqui]

19 minutes ago, SKL said:

I saw a study summary that said spanking produces more negative than positive results when it's the "go to" method, but, when used as a back-up / last resort method in conjunction with non-physical discipline, it produces less negative outcomes compared to other methods.  This is consistent with what I've observed.  (But I live in the Midwest, where spanking is a normal part of the culture.  The result might be different if a family's discipline method were culturally abnormal.)

I think it's a complex issue really.  I think trying to make it sound simple or obvious is unhelpful.

 

The bolded is actually backed up by at least one study, but in reverse - that spanking has increasing negative effects the rarer it is. That is, it never has super great long-term effects, but a child who is spanked in a community where all the kids are spanked has a much better long-term outcome than one who gets the exact same type of discipline in a community where hardly anybody spanks. IIRC, the study authors hypothesized that spanking a child where spanking is rare might send the message to the kid that they are unusually bad, so much so that they need to be specially punished; or else that the parents are dangerously out of control (and if they're very far out of community norms than they might actually BE dangerously out of control) and the children need to be extra vigilant at all times. Either way, the extra stress can't be good for developing minds. (It seems to me that a third possibility is that if spanking is rare in a community than a punishment by spanking is accompanied by the parents admonishing their children to keep this quiet, which is a weird double message for a young child.)

[Katy]

Re spanking and public opinion...  I listened to a Dr Phil podcast when he was interviewing Gayle King.  He said that it didn't matter whether he thought it was reasonable to swat the rear of a pre-verbal child for doing something really dangerous like running out in the road.  He couldn't condone spanking EVER because once you've heard someone twist your words to justify child abuse those who are reasonable about it no longer matter.  I thought that was interesting, because I've never thought about why someone would publicly disapprove of spanking even if privately they are okay with it (in limited circumstances).  The only other psychologists I've heard approve of it are the guy that wrote the love languages books (to him the severity of any given punishment depends on the child and their love language), and to a lesser extent Jordan Petersen, who seemed to be disapproving of the idea of no discipline more than the idea that any particular method is best, as long as consistently and lovingly applied.

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Katy said:

Re spanking and public opinion...  I listened to a Dr Phil podcast when he was interviewing Gayle King.  He said that it didn't matter whether he thought it was reasonable to swat the rear of a pre-verbal child for doing something really dangerous like running out in the road.  He couldn't condone spanking EVER because once you've heard someone twist your words to justify child abuse those who are reasonable about it no longer matter.  I thought that was interesting, because I've never thought about why someone would publicly disapprove of spanking even if privately they are okay with it (in limited circumstances).  The only other psychologists I've heard approve of it are the guy that wrote the love languages books (to him the severity of any given punishment depends on the child and their love language), and to a lesser extent Jordan Petersen, who seemed to be disapproving of the idea of no discipline more than the idea that any particular method is best, as long as consistently and lovingly applied.

True, some people seem unable to see beyond black and white.  These individuals are the ones most in need of thoughtful parenting advice IMO.

I think most people just organically experience and live out the complex development of discipline methods.  Of course we all make mistakes, and we all have times when we think, "what am I going to do with this child who doesn't respond to anything as expected?"  But cultural methods that stood the test of time are usually going to have reasonably healthy outcomes.  Cultural methods include checking in emotionally, considering age and understanding, and checking with other sane people when our personal toolkit isn't up to the task.  These things may be difficult for very black-and-white / emotionally immature people.

The outliers are already breaking the law (and cultural norms) when they abuse kids.  The idea that we need a more restrictive law to stop extreme people from being extreme does not make sense.  Extreme people will come up with some other form of torture, or just do what they want and threaten the kids with worse if they tell.  I personally would rather see kids spanked occasionally in public than have them disciplined unreasonably in secret.

But yeah - I wouldn't want people quoting me when explaining why they abused their kids.

[hjffkj]

I don't know the laws in MD since we just moved here recently. But in Delaware, where I lived my entire life until Feb, the wording of the relatively new law makes spanking illegal. I believe it was the first state to make spanking illegal. No one has actubally been persecuted for spanking though from my understanding.

I personally think spanking is a disgusting behavior and that people who feel it is a necessary parenting tool should consider taking a parenting class to learn healthier tools.

Edited October 1, 2019 by hjffkj

[Guest]

11 hours ago, SKL said:

It's always interesting to see threads like this, where almost everyone says spanking is always wrong.  The stats continue to say that the vast majority of American parents spank or believe in spanking, and I know it isn't unpopular worldwide either.  I've also seen people say that they have spanked but they don't think other parents should be allowed to spank.

I think it's OK for parents to have spanking as a legal option in case they feel it is needed.  It's also great if they can successfully discipline a child without spanking.  I also think that some non-contact punishments can be much more inhumane than a reasonable spanking.

When I read a bit on the history of domestic abuse, it helped me see what I believe as the wrong of spanking/hitting kids for punishment. Many men, even those who never physically disciplined their own wives, still considered it permissible for other men because some have particularly stubborn wives. Thus, it was okay as long as it wasn’t “overly severe.” 

I see this as strongly parallel to current defense of legal spanking of kids. It is described sometimes as “one option” or a tool which parents must have in case other behavior management fails. I find that a weak argument, though, because of the many situations where adults must manage behavior without the “tool” of physical striking. I figure if foster parents, overwhelmed preschool teachers and camp directors can manage without it, all other parents ought to be able to find a way. 

PS. I am completely in favor of government-provided and/or healthcare-provided classes and materials to help parents learn better strategies for managing behavior. Certainly those of us who grew up spanked sometimes struggle, at least for a while, on how to manage behavior instead. 

PSS: For full disclosure, all of my children received a spanking some of the time during preschool ages. (By spanking I mean, clothed behind, no implements, one or two swats.) I don’t, though, consider any of those to be my fine parenting moments of victory. I think it’s much more exemplary to solve problems with kids without having a temper tantrum of my own and spanking their butts. I think it would have only been a benefit if it was straight-up illegal; it would be a catalyst to find a better way. 

[SKL]

Yeah, a lot of people say they have spanked, but wished they had not.  But who's to say those few spankings weren't the reason the non-physical discipline worked as well as it did?

My mom explained to me that spanking works if and only if it is rarely used. 

I think it would actually be helpful if experienced parents could share this kind of logic, rather than keep silent so the internet won't call them disgusting.  But anyway.  We are past that, at least on the internet.

[Carol in Cal.]

17 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

cutting or burning (!?) is specifically illegal, as is shaking any child under 3.    

Out here it is pretty common for parents from Mexico to burn their kids with cigarettes during toilet training.  For a while social workers were taught to disregard it as 'cultural'.  I don't know the current status of the regs about it, but I hope it's completely illegal.

[bibiche]

33 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Out here it is pretty common for parents from Mexico to burn their kids with cigarettes during toilet training.  For a while social workers were taught to disregard it as 'cultural'.  I don't know the current status of the regs about it, but I hope it's completely illegal.

That's barbaric. And just so people don't get the idea that this is a cultural thing, I can share that in my experience living in Mexico and having many Mexican friends with young children across socio-economic classes, I have never once heard of anyone using this as a toilet training technique. 

[maize]

I've thought a lot about this question and my personal conclusion is that outright bans on all spanking are not appropriate; I think reasonable limitations can be made.

I find no scientific support for the idea that human children are best reared without any physical interventions that might inflict pain--I watch mother cats swipe at their kittens as a means of controlling behavior, it's pretty normal and clearly not meant to injure, I figure occasional physical intervention has been part of child rearing throughout human evolution. I have read many studies that indicate harm from spanking but I haven't found any that differentiate well between different types and uses of spanking. I much prefer not to spank, but I have found that with some children in a certain age range an occasional spanking is the best way to communicate a hard boundary. I'm talking preschool kids old enough to be running around and not old enough to reason their way through more abstract consequences. As an example, I had a toddler once who loved going for walks but had decided it was a game to run off the sidewalk into the road. After many attempts to use other means to control his behavior I warned him that if he ran into the road he would get a spanking. He ran straight into the road. I went after him, picked him up, and whacked him once with my hand. He cried for ten seconds and never ran into the road again--the spanking was the one consequence he could understand--it was immediate, sharp enough to make him want to avoid, and certainly not a thing to cause lifelong trauma. I could of course have refused to take him on any more walks, but he wasn't at a point of being able to reason through that as a consequence for running into the road. I could have strapped him into a stroller where he would have been miserable. But as many times as I have thought through that scenario I can't think of any more effective way to have handled it. I can guarantee my toddlers have been much more traumatized by being restrained in their carseats than they ever have been by an occasional spanking--actually, one of mine found carseats so traumatizing they regularly triggered breath-holding spells.

What some people  call spanking I would call beating--the kind where an implement is used to hit a child over and over. I've never experienced or administered that kind of discipline and can't think of a reason it would be necessary. I have seven children and have probably not administered a total of more than twenty spankings amongst them, but I still wouldn't want to eliminate spanking entirely as a parenting tool.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

It's so much easier to just agree online, even when you don't, just because you don't want to deal with the online spear chucking that inevitably happens.

In regards to the bolded, parenting kids is a LOT different.  When my kid took off running at school, one of the teachers managed to grab her just before she ran out into the bus parking lot as the buses were pulling away.  And then............................she handed my kid to me.  She basically told my kid she can't do that, and then expected me to handle it.  As the parent............I can't do that.  There's no one else to handle it.   When kids act up at camp, camp directors don't "discipline" the kids, they sent them home for mom and dad to handle it.  That's really the last resort for preschool teachers and camp directors.....send the kids home for the parents to actually teach the kid not to run in the street or jump in the lake in the middle of the night or whatever.  That's what suspension and expulsion really are.  And parents........we don't have that option. 

 

I have spanked my kids.  NEVER EVER, with any sort of implement.  I don't do it all the time, or even most of the time.  I prefer natural/logical consequences whenever possible.  But, dang it when it comes to getting run over in a parking lot, I would rather my kid feel hurt from a spanking than end up in the hospital or dead because they got backed over.  

 

And, having engaged in these discussions online over the years.....those are my thoughts.  I will not engage in the online spear chucking, so everyone who hates spanking may commence telling me how I am a disgusting, lazy, abusive, failure of a parent.  

It’s not different than fostering, and with fostering, the likelihood you’ll get a compliant, good-as-gold kid is pretty low. 

In your example with the teacher who grabbed your kid before she ran into the parking lot and then passed her off to you, what would she do if you were not there? And does spanking a kid who *almost* ran into the parking lot somehow train them to never do that again? I mean, I grant you, a parent who gets a bad shock may very well smack a butt just from the high emotions and terror of the moment, but that’s not the same thing as believing it’s a good practice for teaching them not to do that. 

Have you ever seen the little ring-lines of daycare kids walking along in a parking lot or at an event, each child holding his or her little ring on a rope headed and followed by the teachers or aides? How have the kids learned to walk along rather than darting into the road? 

With suspension or expulsion, is that typical for kids younger than, say, six or seven, in your circles? Facilities don’t suspend or expel a kid so the parents can spank them in private. It’s so they can manage or address the problem behavior that was such a big problem it was beyond the scope of teachers or administrators to address. 

I just think if spanking were such an ideal way of addressing bad behavior, it should not need so many cautions against doing it too much, too hard, with an implement, in anger, etc. 

Look, I don’t climb on any high horse about how my discipline choices are always correct and anyone who doesn’t do it like me is lazy, disgusting or whatever. I think, as a society, we are hopefully moving away from people harming others and justifying it as necessary or sanctioned by God, or the natural order of things. I think, just how it now (hopefully to most everybody here) seems incredible that humans were ever sold as chattel for other humans to exploit*,or that a woman was not permitted to have her own bank account, or that people could keep their horses and livestock in any kind of condition they wanted with impunity; hopefully the day will come when it will seem incredible that schools, much less parents, were free to paddle or punish children any way they wished. 

*My examples pertain to the US and first world nations; I know there are still places where people do not have these basic rights. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Not sure if it is still legal in schools here. It's not used often, if it is. I remember there being rumors in elementary school that this or that kid got a spanking when he (usually it was a he) was sent to the principal's office. But such punishments were never carried out in the hearing of other students, if they were at all.

My fourth-grade teacher had one of those giant paddles like they hold up at golf tournaments hanging on the wall. Those usually say something like, "Quiet, please," but hers said, "Hush, Y'all." That's what we called it too. But it never came down, even though occasionally she would teasingly admonish a mischievous kid that she might have to use it.

Unlike most folks here (or so it seems) I am not anti-spanking by parents, and I don't think it should be illegal. It's not a form of punishment we have used often in our home, but that is part of its effectiveness. Like most forms of parental discipline, it works best when not administered in the throes of anger or frustration. Almost any form of discipline can cross the line into abuse if the parent loses control. I don't think that spanking is inherently abusive, nor do I think it necessarily teaches kids to hit, etc. Children aren't stupid, and they understand the difference between loving discipline and lashing out -- provided those differences are shown to them. And as SKL pointed out, some non-contact punishments can be even worse.

Which makes me wonder... how much of our opinion on a subject like this is shaped by our own experiences? Both dh and I were spanked growing up (him probably more than me, lol). But both our families administered corporal punishment (and any punishment, really) in a controlled manner and followed with assurance of love and forgiveness. We never questioned whether our parents loved us, or thought they might want to hurt us. Not that our parents never lost their tempers, etc. And not that we've never lost ours. We certainly have. But overall, we were never afraid of our parents or worried that they would spiral out of control. And I don't think our kids are worried either. Now that they are older, we haven't spanked in a long time. I can certainly see how the memory of other children pleading for a spanking to stop would leave a person with a different perception though. And I'm definitely not comfortable with allowing adults outside the home to spank.

I’m sure our opinions are nearly always shaped by our experiences; it’s probably more often than not a reason most of us homeschool or have homeschooled - one or more things about our own education did not pass muster and we decided to do differently/better with our kids. 

AFA spanking in an atmosphere of love - and let me say, PeachyDoodle, I really like you on these boards, so I’m not raising a beef with you - IMO, it may be even more devastating psychologically to a child to have love mixed with application of pain. At least the parent who swats a butt because they were at the end of their rope or the child scared them by doing something extremely foolish is following a sort of logic that could make sense to the kid. “Oh, I really scared mommy when I pulled the dog’s tail and he snarled at me!” But I think the message of, “I love you to pieces but I have to beat your butt now so you learn not to pull the dog’s tail” is more crazy-making. It’s teaching them that people who claim to love you are permitted to cause you direct pain if they deem it’s “for your own good.” 

My parents were devout Christian spankers (though I don’t think my father ever administered any). One of my sisters was spanked very often and always with an implement (ping-pong paddle, wooden spoon); I was rarely spanked because I was a very compliant kid and I was more determined to avoid punishment than I was to cause mischief. IMO, though, my mother was very bad at managing behavior of kids. She thought she was doing it the Biblical way, though, without a doubt. But interactions with her were adversarial over and over. She did not have clever strategies for gaining compliance; she used many threats and punishments. 

There’s no doubt in my mind that my parents’ poor examples of discipline shaped my own. My sisters did not/do not believe in spanking, either. 

[Sneezyone]

I was raised with the (rare) spanking. I vividly recall the last spanking (or attempted one) I ever got b/c I ran from my dad and he caught me at the locked front door. I think it shook him as much as me that he was chasing me through the house as I tried to escape. I'm not gonna lie and say I have never spanked. I may have issued a swat when my kids were little, 0-5? I don't remember details. I do know that my kids joke about me all the time because my hands have been arthritic since my kids were small and it literally would "hurt me more than them". I had to adapt my parenting choices and improve my skillset to maintain authority in my household as they aged since DH is often away. I am glad that I was forced into a different parenting model tho. My parents comment on it, in a positive way, all. the. time. I'd like to think we've broken that cycle. Now to tackle the yelling...sigh.

[SKL]

The daycare comparison isn't apt because they aren't actually teaching one-year-olds not to run in the street.  They may be transferring them from point A to point B and making sure they don't have a chance to try going in the street, but that's a different thing.

As far as foster care, if you're talking about wee tots learning not to run in the street (and other safety matters that wee tots need to learn), that age/stage is a very small minority of the kids in foster care.  If a foster parent has a runner, a temporary foster parent can decide not to take the kid out and let him loose; theoretically fp is not responsible for raising this child to adulthood and keeping the child alive, healthy, and reasonably happy now is the main priority.  Besides that, do you really know for sure that fps never spank tots?  It's not like the tots can or would tell about it.

As Maize pointed out, a quick spank is, for most kids, a quick and clear and one-time communication that usually works in the situation described.  The alternatives may or may not work, but are almost certain to take longer and potentially be less safe (as the kid will keep trying to run in the street until she learns).  Furthermore, having seen many kids scream bloody murder (and kick and writhe) over being prevented "non-violently" from doing what they want, I don't view the alternatives as being obviously less traumatic to the child.

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Is it common for daycares to take kids on walks through neighborhoods where they explicitly teach things like watching for cars backing out of driveways, or out to places like Walmart or Kroger, where they explicitly teach kids to watch out for cars in parking lots and such?  Again, I don't know, I never sent a kid to daycare.  I don't recall seeing daycares at such places but I dunno that I am in such places often enough to have seen it.  I have seen field trips to such places as the childrens museum, but obviously that's a whole other level of management that's not present in a regular Walmart parking lot.  

 

At the daycares my kids attended, they would walk on base to the pool in the summer. That was it. I had to explicitly teach my DD to cross the street and push the button for a signal at 10 years old b/c she'd never seen it done. More likely, she didn't remember ever seeing it done.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

To the bolded....call me.  That's what preschool teachers and camp directors do.  They call mom and dad to come get the kids.   

Fosters....I will be honest, I am not up on laws regarding fosters.  Given the news stories I have read regarding foster parents that kill their foster kids, I am not sure that's a great example.  I mean, sure I presume that foster parents that kill their kids aren't common, but then, it's not like every parent kills their own kids either.  And lets not forget, when a foster kid is beyond a foster parent's abilities.................they get to call the social worker and find a better situation for the kid.  It's just simply still not the same.

 

Although I haven't ever seen "ring lines,"  I can imagine.  Yet, I still stand behind the fact that if a day care kid does something that the day care worker can't figure out.........the day care kid can and will be suspended or expelled from daycare.  I literally cannot expel my kids from my house.  I am literally the last line of defense for any day care, preschool, art class, camp or school that I might ever send my kid to.  If my kid can't continue to hold on to that little ring........................that day care sends the kid home to me.  They can sit my kid in a corner (which is our version of time out here) they can have the kid write sentences, they can hold a kid in from recess, but when that kid drops that ring and takes off that last time...................They expel the kid from daycare.  And then that's up to mom and dad.  I can sit my kid in a corner (and I have done so in public.....just did it in Kroger  2 weeks ago with all 3 of my kids) and I can have my kid write sentences when they have the ability and whatever and whatever.    But in the end, the last resort of the daycare, of the camp, of the school, of the YMCA....is to tell the kid they can't come back.

 

 

What parent can expel a kid from from their house?

 

Also, just generally, completely aside from the discussion of spanking......because I haven't ever sent a kid to daycare...

Is it common for daycares to take kids on walks through neighborhoods where they explicitly teach things like watching for cars backing out of driveways, or out to places like Walmart or Kroger, where they explicitly teach kids to watch out for cars in parking lots and such?  Again, I don't know, I never sent a kid to daycare.  I don't recall seeing daycares at such places but I dunno that I am in such places often enough to have seen it.  I have seen field trips to such places as the childrens museum, but obviously that's a whole other level of management that's not present in a regular Walmart parking lot.  

No, you can’t expel your kid from your home, but why should that mean you would or should spank them for whatever the expulsion-worthy offense was? 

So, for example, when my kid went to (Christian) summer camp this past summer, he reported to me that some kids in one cabin got sent home for Juuling or pot; I don’t remember which. Thanks be to God, it wasn’t my kid who got sent home for Juuling but if it had been, I’m sure as hell not going to spank him. It’s entirely inappropriate for his age and doesn’t address the problem. I’m not entirely sure what I would do, but when it comes to tweens/teens/young adults, we have to work on solving the problem. 

With the daycare question, I have never had a kid in daycare, either, but one place where I have seen the ring line used is at a strip mall nearby that has a daycare facility in it. So, I don’t know if it’s part of daily outdoor exercise, or they are going on a grocery store field trip or what, but they have trained the children to walk on the ring line. I don’t know exactly how this goes down, but I assume it is not far different from training dogs to walk on a leash and not dart jaggedly all over hell and creation instead. 

[EmseB]

I think the same thing could be said for time out, though.  "I love you, but your behavior is so bad that you can't be around anyone else right now," or, "There is a limit you reach with the person that loves you the most when they will send you away from them." 

Isolation (time out) is often a technique that is discouraged for certain foster kids as well. I don't think there is an equivalence to be made with foster kids and methods of discipline in most cases. 

I know parents who give the silent treatment. That, to me, makes me cringe way more than seeing a swat on the butt. But they see it as better than spanking because to them any physical discipline is worse than non- physical. 

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, SKL said:

The daycare comparison isn't apt because they aren't actually teaching one-year-olds not to run in the street.  They may be transferring them from point A to point B and making sure they don't have a chance to try going in the street, but that's a different thing.

As far as foster care, if you're talking about wee tots learning not to run in the street (and other safety matters that wee tots need to learn), that age/stage is a very small minority of the kids in foster care.  If a foster parent has a runner, a temporary foster parent can decide not to take the kid out and let him loose; theoretically fp is not responsible for raising this child to adulthood and keeping the child alive, healthy, and reasonably happy now is the main priority.  Besides that, do you really know for sure that fps never spank tots?  It's not like the tots can or would tell about it.

As Maize pointed out, a quick spank is, for most kids, a quick and clear and one-time communication that usually works in the situation described.  The alternatives may or may not work, but are almost certain to take longer and potentially be less safe (as the kid will keep trying to run in the street until she learns).  Furthermore, having seen many kids scream bloody murder (and kick and writhe) over being prevented "non-violently" from doing what they want, I don't view the alternatives as being obviously less traumatic to the child.

I am 99% sure - though I have not done foster care and could be wrong - foster parents in my state are not permitted to use physical punishment on any age of foster child in their care. Oftentimes the kids are coming from a traumatic background already and the importance of the message that there are such things as safe adults who will not hurt them cannot be over-learned. 

IME, the phase of kids needing to learn not to run into the street is short no matter whether they are foster kids or your own kids. I can’t see why it’s necessary to spank them to try and get them to learn that lesson extra quickly. I don’t even see how spanking would help that goal come to fruition. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

As a previous poster said.....spanking has an age limit.  Tweens/teens/young adults are outside of it.  Spanking is not for kids who have brains that have matured beyond the "what would I do to train a dog to walk on a leash" stage.    

Well, you were talking about expulsion. I don’t normally think of expulsion as a serious problem for the preschool set. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I think the same thing could be said for time out, though.  "I love you, but your behavior is so bad that you can't be around anyone else right now," or, "There is a limit you reach with the person that loves you the most when they will send you away from them." 

Isolation (time out) is often a technique that is discouraged for certain foster kids as well. I don't think there is an equivalence to be made with foster kids and methods of discipline in most cases. 

I know parents who give the silent treatment. That, to me, makes me cringe way more than seeing a swat on the butt. But they see it as better than spanking because to them any physical discipline is worse than non- physical. 

 

There are non-spankers who aren’t big believers in time out, either. 

My view of time out was more, “let’s get away from the problem situation so we can regroup.” 

And yes, I’m sure there are foster kids who should not have time outs, either. 

Your last line is interesting to me because I don’t think I have ever witnessed a parent give a kid the silent treatment, thinking at least it’s not spanking. 

[HomeAgain]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

Well, they certainly don't call it that, no.  But it's true that daycares DO tell parents that kids can't come back.  'I am sorry Mrs Cooper, but Addison bit another kid today.  This is the third time it's happened.  We can't have kids that bite in our daycare, you will need to find another daycare.'

They don't generally consider it a punishment for the kids, and it's really not.  It's just about not having kids that can't follow the rules in that daycare.  So it's not "expulsion" in the same way that a 15 yr old gets expelled for smoking in the boys room.

Isn't discipline treated the same way at home, too?
Janie hits the other children in playgroup.  Mom keeps Janie home because it's not the right situation for her right now.
Johnny runs out in traffic.  It's a phase, but until he can control himself his options are limited to being strapped into the stroller or the carrier.
Benjamin gets angry and kicks his friends.  Benjamin's friends access changes to well supervised playdates after taking a break to learn more anger management and problem solving skills.

Removing a kid from a situation until they are more developed is just how parenting works....right?

[SKL]

14 minutes ago, Quill said:

I am 99% sure - though I have not done foster care and could be wrong - foster parents in my state are not permitted to use physical punishment on any age of foster child in their care. Oftentimes the kids are coming from a traumatic background already and the importance of the message that there are such things as safe adults who will not hurt them cannot be over-learned. 

IME, the phase of kids needing to learn not to run into the street is short no matter whether they are foster kids or your own kids. I can’t see why it’s necessary to spank them to try and get them to learn that lesson extra quickly. I don’t even see how spanking would help that goal come to fruition. 

You can't see, but those raised in cultures that teach it that way do see.  So perhaps it is a cultural difference.  That's fine.  But just because something isn't obvious to you doesn't mean it is wrong for everyone else.

[Tanaqui]

23 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

As a previous poster said.....spanking has an age limit.  Tweens/teens/young adults are outside of it.  Spanking is not for kids who have brains that have matured beyond the "what would I do to train a dog to walk on a leash" stage.    

 

I wouldn't hit a dog to teach them to walk on a leash either. Actually, I would not hit a dog period. That's more likely to get you a fearful dog than an obedient one. I want my animals to trust me.

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Removing a kid from a situation until they are more developed is just how parenting works....right?

Not always.  Some things are too important to wait until the child feels ready to comply.  Some kids scream when their diapers are changed, but we change them anyway.

Running out of the house and into the street is something that can happen unexpectedly and can be deadly.  My kid sister unlocked a door and went for a walk at 6am one morning at age 1.  Families with multiple kids can have their other young ones accidentally let a tot out.  Or a moment of distraction can allow a tot to run of from an otherwise attentive parent.  This is not unusual at all with families that have several kids close in age.  Seems safest to teach the kid not to run into the street as soon as possible.

[Tanaqui]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

It's necessary that my kid learn the lesson of watching for cars AS FAST AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN, because if they don't.....they could *die.*  Back overs are simply not uncommon.  In most cases it happens to be a parent or close family member and happens in a driveway, but that doesn't meant it doesn't happen in a parking lot.  In fact I think one of the biggest reasons it doesn't happen as often in a parking lot is because parents are more alert and watching than they would be in a family yard/driveway where 'of course they know the kid is outside playing.'

My kid *SHOULD* be scared of cars.  Cars can kill.  Cars do kill, every day.  If a spanking makes my kid terrified of a car....................that's a good thing IMO.  

 

I'll have to look and see if I can find it, but at least one study has shown that spanking is the LEAST effective method of teaching children not to run in the street and to be careful of cars. The most effective method? Redirection and reasoning at an age-appropriate level.

Like, the study specifically was checking that exact example, because that's the one people always pull out to defend spanking. As I recall - and I will have to see if I can find it, this was a while ago now - the spanked kids had a high percentage of immediate repeat offenders. Get spanked, go right back to running towards the street. Within minutes. And the long-term results weren't great either.

At any rate, if your child hasn't learned yet, I suggest you do the same thing you do with your aforementioned dog - keep them on a leash or contained in some way. (Carrier for the dog, stroller for the baby. I guess you could mix it up, but people think dog strollers are really weird and I doubt they'll react better to babies in pet carriers.)

Edited October 1, 2019 by Tanaqui

[HomeAgain]

Just now, SKL said:

Not always.  Some things are too important to wait until the child feels ready to comply.  Some kids scream when their diapers are changed, but we change them anyway.

Running out of the house and into the street is something that can happen unexpectedly and can be deadly.  My kid sister unlocked a door and went for a walk at 6am one morning at age 1.  Families with multiple kids can have their other young ones accidentally let a tot out.  Or a moment of distraction can allow a tot to run of from an otherwise attentive parent.  This is not unusual at all with families that have several kids close in age.  Seems safest to teach the kid not to run into the street as soon as possible.

For the first, of course we change them but we don't offer them the freedom they would have had.  And screaming during a diaper change is different than disturbing others.

Teaching kids not to run out and keeping them safe can be done without spanking.  Bells were used in our house.  This house has alarms at each door that we can set.