what to do with a chronic liar

[caedmyn]

I really don't know what to do with DS8.  You can't believe a word out of his mouth because he lies so much.  Most of the lies he tells are such that there's really no way of knowing or figuring out whether he's lying or not.  For instance, he'll tell me that there was pee all over the seat when he used the bathroom...and I'm pretty sure I was the person in it right before him and there wasn't pee all over the seat when I used it...but I can't be absolutely certain that no one else went in there in the 5 minutes since I used the bathroom.  He lies frequently to try to get his siblings in trouble, lies about things the neighborhood kids say or do, lies about whether he did or didn't do something, just lies constantly.  This has been going on for a couple of years at least.  I have tried not engaging with him when I think he's lying so he doesn't get any positive reinforcement.  I've tried consequences but with no effect (and it's impossible to be consistent with consequences when I don't know whether he's lying most of the time).  We've had lots of talks about how we don't trust him because he's shown that he can't be trusted.  A few times he's complained that he got in trouble for something he didn't do and we didn't believe him when he said he didn't do it, and I've explained that that's what happens when you lie all the time, but that doesn't appear to be sinking in.  Is there anything else I can try short of just hoping someday he outgrows the lying? 

[klmama]

Hmmm....  Have you ever read to him "The Boy Who Cried Wolf," or other stories like that?  For example, in one of the Laura Ingalls Wilder series there's a story about the cousin (Charlie?) who yelled for help and then laughed when the men came running; after a couple of times they didn't go anymore, but that time he was really attacked by bees.  There's a nice drawing of him all wrapped up in bandages - with Google, you could probably find a photo of what he would have looked like under the bandages.  I wonder if there are other books that would draw the connection between lying and lack of trust or other negative consequences.

[Rosie_0801]

I don't know. With my daughter, it is a stress/trauma reaction. She doesn't know what she's saying, let alone whether it is true or not. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

What happens if you take the lying issue out of the equation?  It doesn’t matter who was responsible for the pee on the seat. There is some now so we clean it up. Together. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Ditto Jean. 

[Shoeless]

Does he enjoy writing stories down? What would happen if instead of thinking of this as a character flaw that must be corrected, you tried reframing it that he is a creative writer that lacks an appropriate outlet for his "stories"?  He is still young, and maybe in his mind if something is possible (like finding pee on the seat), it's just as good as probable, which is the same thing as "this totally happened!".  

If his writing skills are not quite there yet, maybe you could get him a mini tape recorder.  Tell him "I know it's fun to make up interesting stories, but we can't make up tall tales about real people.  When you have an interesting story in your head, like *insert example of a lie he told*, let's write it down/record it instead so I can listen later". 

The only other suggestion I have is a consult with a child psychologist. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, caedmyn said:

I really don't know what to do with DS8.  You can't believe a word out of his mouth because he lies so much.  Most of the lies he tells are such that there's really no way of knowing or figuring out whether he's lying or not.  For instance, he'll tell me that there was pee all over the seat when he used the bathroom...and I'm pretty sure I was the person in it right before him and there wasn't pee all over the seat when I used it...but I can't be absolutely certain that no one else went in there in the 5 minutes since I used the bathroom.  He lies frequently to try to get his siblings in trouble, lies about things the neighborhood kids say or do, lies about whether he did or didn't do something, just lies constantly.  This has been going on for a couple of years at least.  I have tried not engaging with him when I think he's lying so he doesn't get any positive reinforcement.  I've tried consequences but with no effect (and it's impossible to be consistent with consequences when I don't know whether he's lying most of the time).  We've had lots of talks about how we don't trust him because he's shown that he can't be trusted.  A few times he's complained that he got in trouble for something he didn't do and we didn't believe him when he said he didn't do it, and I've explained that that's what happens when you lie all the time, but that doesn't appear to be sinking in.  Is there anything else I can try short of just hoping someday he outgrows the lying? 

he's getting something out of this - or he wouldn't' keep doing it. 

if he lies so much - stop trying to figure out if he's telling the truth, and let him know since you can't trust him to always tell the truth... you will now assume *everything* he says is a lie.  he's old enough to know not to lie. you've harped on this subject to him for two years. he needs to experience consequences. the consequences of him lying is: no one will trust him.  period.  it's not the hearers responsibility to figure out if a chronic liar is lying or actually telling the truth.  he gave up the privilege of being automatically believed.

pee all over the seat?  I'd automatically treat him as if he is either lying - or he is the reason it's there. (so he can go clean it up.)

he lies to get his sibs/other kids in trouble?  then he will be the one in trouble.

if he doesn't like getting in trouble because no one believes him - well, c'est la vie.  have you read the story of the boy who cried wolf?  I'd have him read it to himself.  if you want to talk about it - ask him what he thinks, don't put in your two cents.  be non-chalant about it.   this is entirely his choice.  stop trying to reason with him, just "oh, well, when you lie, people dont' believe you. your choice." -then go back to what you were doing.

if he wants to whine about how no one believes him, ask what he does that no one believes him?  -  THEN ask him what HE is going to do about that?    if he comes to you with a story - I'd ask him why you should believe he's telling the truth?  

outside times when he's come to you with some lie, for whatever reason - I would make an effort to spend more quality time.  reading stories, snuggling, watching fun movies etc. (and make it fun.)  however, if he lies (or tells a "story" that is very likely untrue) - the fun is over.  put the book away, put the movie away, until the next time.  

if you don't know if it's a lie or the truth - assume it's a lie.  if he doesn't like it - he can start telling the truth.  that it will take awhile for people to believe he's telling the truth is the consequence of his history of lying.

[Ausmumof3]

What was the deal with the pee on the seat?  Was he going to get in trouble for making the mess?  What kind of consequence would that bring?  The worst trouble I’ve had with my kids lying has been when it’s something either they knew something was definitely on the family no way list or where I’d made the mistake of overreacting in the past.  If you can calmly deal with the issue that might help.  Like “hey looks like there’s a bit of pee on the seat? Clean it up please?.”

[Melissa in Australia]

have you heard of confabulation 

could he be confabulating?

 I have one twin that has confabulation . He cannot seem to tell the difference between what he wants to be reality and what is reality, so he appears to be lying all the time, but rather it is part of his very complex  condition.

[Pen]

Totally unhelpful reply, but your thread title has me humming “what shall we do with a chronic liar” x3 “earl aye in the morning”  and imaginary things to do for the next lines...  to the tune of Drunken Sailor. Till it’s a stuck tune as I try to get to sleep.

[Scarlett]

When I was 15 my mother sat me down and told me liars can never have real relationships with anyone because no one can trust a word they say.  Now mind you I was not really a chronic liar,  more of a teen figuring her self out, but boy did that  conversation have a lasting impact on me!  I don’t lie.  

Unless like Melissa mentioned there is something going on with his perception of reality ( and it doesn’t sound like that is the case with your child) then I think a similar conversation with an 8 hear old is appropriate. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Since untreated ADHD seems to be a theme....

https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/add-adhd/adhd-and-lying-what-you-need-to-know

[Katy]

I'd get an evaluation if he hasn't had one.  And I'd consider cognitive behavioral therapy.  At his age that will be at least half teaching you different parenting techniques, but at least the therapy would be short term.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

One of my children with ADHD started out on the road to chronic "lying." There was more to it; he tried to set up confrontations and paradigms to test all the boundaries and test my consistency. He was definitely looking for attention, but there were more layers to it. Very obviously, he didn't understand consequences well, and he didn't understand why ABC was appropriate behavior but XYZ wasn't. Even though I realized that it was a complex situation, I felt constantly set up, because I am not a punitive parent and I didn't like feeling shoved into that role. 

Some approaches I took:

1. Dropped the "lying" terminology. Didn't ask him if he'd done this or that, didn't ask him if he was lying, didn't set up "if/then" for if he did lie. As others in the thread are explaining, I only believed the evidence of my eyes, yet reacted as if everyone needed to learn a lesson together.

2. Taught a lot about admirable behavior, modeled it, did role playing and explicit teaching...and then did my best to catch him being good. I found something to notice every day, until after three times of whatever positive behavior, I could say, "I love how you always XYZ. You are (adjective - kind, thoughtful, funny, whatever)."

3. Which led to more positive attention from me, more positive interactions with him, and an emerging new self-image that was good.

4. The explicit teaching including learning how to apologize along with making amends. Not just saying, "Sorry," but how to make things right, and words to use when we make a mistake or need help.

5. Sports can help, if it's a positive, consistent environment, because the feedback is in the moment while the activity is also fun. One of my sons did very well with martial arts. Another was very lucky to have a very positive baseball experience. Imagine such literal coaching IRL! "You're doing it, buddy! Oops, that was a mistake, let's try again. Aw, yeah! You got it! You did it so well, three times in a row! Now clap for the other team and say Good Game." LOL

Like any advice I ever give about parenting, especially about parenting boys with ADHD, there will be people reading who will think, "I can't do that; it's a full time job and I have all these other kids. I don't have the patience. I don't think that's what's happening, anyway, he's a bad little liar and I need better discipline to make him stop it."

But if that's not you, and you DO want to believe the best of your little guy, you DO want to set him up for success, and (come hell or high water) you DO have the time, then I hope this helps.

[Jean in Newcastle]

9 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

One of my children with ADHD started out on the road to chronic "lying." There was more to it; he tried to set up confrontations and paradigms to test all the boundaries and test my consistency. He was definitely looking for attention, but there were more layers to it. Very obviously, he didn't understand consequences well, and he didn't understand why ABC was appropriate behavior but XYZ wasn't. Even though I realized that it was a complex situation, I felt constantly set up, because I am not a punitive parent and I didn't like feeling shoved into that role. 

Some approaches I took:

1. Dropped the "lying" terminology. Didn't ask him if he'd done this or that, didn't ask him if he was lying, didn't set up "if/then" for if he did lie. As others in the thread are explaining, I only believed the evidence of my eyes, yet reacted as if everyone needed to learn a lesson together.

2. Taught a lot about admirable behavior, modeled it, did role playing and explicit teaching...and then did my best to catch him being good. I found something to notice every day, until after three times of whatever positive behavior, I could say, "I love how you always XYZ. You are (adjective - kind, thoughtful, funny, whatever)."

3. Which led to more positive attention from me, more positive interactions with him, and an emerging new self-image that was good.

4. The explicit teaching including learning how to apologize along with making amends. Not just saying, "Sorry," but how to make things right, and words to use when we make a mistake or need help.

5. Sports can help, if it's a positive, consistent environment, because the feedback is in the moment while the activity is also fun. One of my sons did very well with martial arts. Another was very lucky to have a very positive baseball experience. Imagine such literal coaching IRL! "You're doing it, buddy! Oops, that was a mistake, let's try again. Aw, yeah! You got it! You did it so well, three times in a row! Now clap for the other team and say Good Game." LOL

Like any advice I ever give about parenting, especially about parenting boys with ADHD, there will be people reading who will think, "I can't do that; it's a full time job and I have all these other kids. I don't have the patience. I don't think that's what's happening, anyway, he's a bad little liar and I need better discipline to make him stop it."

But if that's not you, and you DO want to believe the best of your little guy, you DO want to set him up for success, and (come hell or high water) you DO have the time, then I hope this helps.

This should go on the refrigerator door.  So good! 

[SKL]

My main approach is to move forward regardless of whether it's a lie or not.  Example:  "Clean up that mess."  "I didn't make that mess."  "I didn't ask who made it.  I told you to clean it."  Or:  "Don't throw things out the window."  "I didn't throw anything out the window."  "In the future, do not ever throw things out the window."

I also talk about trust - if you are known to be dishonest then you will be treated accordingly - not trusted to have certain freedoms, doubted in a he said / she said, etc.

[gardenmom5]

29 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

 

2. Taught a lot about admirable behavior, modeled it, did role playing and explicit teaching...and then did my best to catch him being good. I found something to notice every day, until after three times of whatever positive behavior, I could say, "I love how you always XYZ. You are (adjective - kind, thoughtful, funny, whatever)."

3. Which led to more positive attention from me, more positive interactions with him, and an emerging new self-image that was good.

 

just want to add to this.

when using praise to get a child to improve behavior - it needs to be praise for an action they can repeat.  this has been demonstrated in studies - children who hear "you're smart, you're talented, you're___(non-specific idea/concept)" - actually end up doing less, because they start becoming fearful of failure because they don't understand what they did to get the praise in the first place.  (in the studies, when hearing this from teachers, they even came to believe they were actually stupid but the teachers didn't want to hurt their feelings.) ---- this has been demonstrated in studies on praise. (even for kids who were good students)

for a child to benefit from praise, it needs to be specific enough they can understand what they did to elicit the praise.  then they know what they can do to repeat it,  most kids would rather have praise than not.  "you are a hard worker the way you ___", "you were so clever when you ____", "you really persevered when you ___", "you were very helpful when you___".   those are all things they can understand what they did to receive the praise - and they can and will repeat so they can receive more praise.

[Terabith]

Encourage his future in politics?

[Pen]

Can he get plenty of attention when he is truthful? Or is lying the method he has discovered to get attention he needs even if it’s negative attention?

If he does tell the truth I think you should be ready to notice, say you appreciate it, and reward it with positive attention.

[Tanaqui]

I would also stop trying to figure out if he's lying - if there's pee on the seat, he can help clean it up. (And this goes double for if you know he did whatever it is. Any child would lie if asked "Did you hit your brother!?" so if you know they did, don't ask!) What I would not do is then go ultra-punitive and "well, now we gotta clean the whole bathroom" or anything like that. How is that going to help matters? It's just going to make your relationship rockier at a time when you need it to be smoother. Your kid will know he's being punished for something, and he's going to resent getting a worse punishment than either crime really merits. You want to teach your child, not just throw your weight around because you can and he's irritating.

 

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Since untreated ADHD seems to be a theme....

https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/add-adhd/adhd-and-lying-what-you-need-to-know

 

3 hours ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

One of my children with ADHD started out on the road to chronic "lying." There was more to it; he tried to set up confrontations and paradigms to test all the boundaries and test my consistency. He was definitely looking for attention, but there were more layers to it. Very obviously, he didn't understand consequences well, and he didn't understand why ABC was appropriate behavior but XYZ wasn't. Even though I realized that it was a complex situation, I felt constantly set up, because I am not a punitive parent and I didn't like feeling shoved into that role. 

Some approaches I took:

1. Dropped the "lying" terminology. Didn't ask him if he'd done this or that, didn't ask him if he was lying, didn't set up "if/then" for if he did lie. As others in the thread are explaining, I only believed the evidence of my eyes, yet reacted as if everyone needed to learn a lesson together.

2. Taught a lot about admirable behavior, modeled it, did role playing and explicit teaching...and then did my best to catch him being good. I found something to notice every day, until after three times of whatever positive behavior, I could say, "I love how you always XYZ. You are (adjective - kind, thoughtful, funny, whatever)."

3. Which led to more positive attention from me, more positive interactions with him, and an emerging new self-image that was good.

4. The explicit teaching including learning how to apologize along with making amends. Not just saying, "Sorry," but how to make things right, and words to use when we make a mistake or need help.

5. Sports can help, if it's a positive, consistent environment, because the feedback is in the moment while the activity is also fun. One of my sons did very well with martial arts. Another was very lucky to have a very positive baseball experience. Imagine such literal coaching IRL! "You're doing it, buddy! Oops, that was a mistake, let's try again. Aw, yeah! You got it! You did it so well, three times in a row! Now clap for the other team and say Good Game." LOL

Like any advice I ever give about parenting, especially about parenting boys with ADHD, there will be people reading who will think, "I can't do that; it's a full time job and I have all these other kids. I don't have the patience. I don't think that's what's happening, anyway, he's a bad little liar and I need better discipline to make him stop it."

But if that's not you, and you DO want to believe the best of your little guy, you DO want to set him up for success, and (come hell or high water) you DO have the time, then I hope this helps.

I think these two ideas are the best if the lying stems from ADHD and not a mishmash of stuff. BUT, I also know you lack a lot of support, and I am so sorry you have more to deal with and not a lot of time to do it.

I would also note, that I know some adults that are fine people now (not necessarily super functional) without serious moral issues, for whom this advice is probably intended and for whom it might or might not have worked.

If I were dealing with this myself, I would need a counselor...1) To even be in said child's presence (just being honest), and 2) to figure out if this approach would be appropriate or tough love or both in a specific order.

I am so sorry this is a problem in your home.

Oh, I also agree about the overoptimism, and I'm going to note that it doesn't seem to pass with the passing of childhood for some people with ADHD. It bites, it sucks, it's ridiculous, especially if you are the human dose of realism in the family.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

55 minutes ago, kbutton said:

 

 

I would also note, that I know some adults that are fine people now (not necessarily super functional) without serious moral issues, for whom this advice is probably intended and for whom it might or might not have worked.

 

I definitely meant it for future fine people, and it was obviously intended for those for whom it might or might not have worked...? Those are the only two options? All internet "advice" is "take it or leave it," especially when it's less advice and more a person's experience, and was thoroughly disclaimer'ed...and obviously, my style would only suit someone who did not need a counselor to even be in the presence of their child. I would think that a person with a more serious problem of not being able to interact or be in the room with their child, would self-select out of my approach, and seek professional help. They'd probably start there, though, and not ask a bunch of random parents what they'd done with their kids.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Lang Syne Boardie

[kbutton]

10 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

I definitely meant it for future fine people, and it was obviously intended for those for whom it might or might not have worked...? Those are the only two options? All internet "advice" is "take it or leave it," especially when it's less advice and more a person's experience, and was thoroughly disclaimer'ed...

I was trying to indicate that I think it's worth trying with my own disclaimer about people I know who were like this as kid (they self report very interesting stories and seem to have a lack of clarity about a lot of their childhoods). I was also trying to note that these people, who may or may not have been helped by such strategies, did turn out okay just as another instance for the OP that sometimes this ends up being not a big deal in the long-term.

I clearly noted up front that I quoted what I thought were the two "best" suggestions/ideas in the thread, so I am not sure what I said that negates that. I did NOT want to claim that ideas like these were responsible for the anecdotal "fine adults" I know (since their self-reports are not clear), so perhaps you are picking up on that disconnect as me arguing with you.

I hope that clarifies things.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

6 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I was trying to indicate that I think it's worth trying with my own disclaimer about people I know who were like this as kid (they self report very interesting stories and seem to have a lack of clarity about a lot of their childhoods). I was also trying to note that these people, who may or may not have been helped by such strategies, did turn out okay just as another instance for the OP that sometimes this ends up being not a big deal in the long-term.

I clearly noted up front that I quoted what I thought were the two "best" suggestions/ideas in the thread, so I am not sure what I said that negates that. I did NOT want to claim that ideas like these were responsible for the anecdotal "fine adults" I know (since their self-reports are not clear), so perhaps you are picking up on that disconnect as me arguing with you.

I hope that clarifies things.

It does not; it's possible I'm exceptionally foggy today, but I'm having trouble parsing both of your posts. Happy to let it go, of course. 🙂 It doesn't matter - the OP can probably sift it all out for herself.

[kbutton]

9 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

It does not; it's possible I'm exceptionally foggy today, but I'm having trouble parsing both of your posts. Happy to let it go, of course. 🙂 It doesn't matter - the OP can probably sift it all out for herself.

Or I am exceptionally foggy, lol! Totally possible. 🙂