Could I just scream about lower back stuff?

[PeterPan]

So a PT a few years ago told me I had arthritis, fine. Then the chiropractor is like your hip flexors are tight and that's why your back won't adjust and hurt. So I do exercises for the hip flexors, working to using ankle weights, they're fine. So then I google more and this video is like if it hurts HERE it's your gluts. So I'm like fine, do this stuff for my gluts. So those spots hurt less, but I still hurt in the morning and feel tight and have bulges on a side of my spine! So then I pull up videos that are like you have a bulging disc, this will help. So that sort helps a little (decompress, recenter, then back extensions) but it's WORSE in the morning. So the next video is like oh that's because your fluid leaks out during the day, refills at night, and the inflamed tissue is even more swollen. Fine, but I'm taking turmeric for inflammation. But maybe that's why I only adjust in my lower back when I'm on steroids?? 

So then the next video is like your hips are tight because your back is weak (no joke) and that means your abductors are weak. So I test those, work on those, sure enough they're weak. 

So fine, I'm working through this list, but when will it end??? LOL I mean dude, all I wanted was to do something to make my lower back not feel ouchy and compressed. I'm sure sitting doesn't help, but I sit. As you can see, I keep working through lists and nothing SOLVES it. Will these stupid external hip rotation abductor things finally solve it? I have no clue, lol.

I had another chiro swear he could get it to relax with cupping (ACK!!) and a Graston technique (more ACK, looks like freakish scraping), and I'm just sitting here thinking wouldn't that make it WORSE???

I have no clue. Seems safer to be in pain than to let anyone work on it, mercy. Any thoughts? 

[klmama]

Did a doctor tell you that you had bulging disks, or did you just get that idea from the video?  Sometimes I have bulges on one side of my spine, but it's just tight muscles - some combo of stretching, walking, heating pad, hot shower, and it's usually a bit better.  I've found regular exercise makes the most difference for back pain, even if I only have time to walk around the block while swinging my arms or just go back and forth several times from the kitchen to the living room.  

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, klmama said:

 Sometimes I have bulges on one side of my spine, but it's just tight muscles

You're correct, I don't know if it's a disc or tight muscles and even how to distinguish them, hmm. 

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

You're correct, I don't know if it's a disc or tight muscles and even how to distinguish them, hmm. 

A competent chiropractor will be able to tell the difference. There are neurological screenings they do to be sure there isn't something bulging or ruptured. It's the same thing I non-specialty MD would if you came in for back pain. From there, they would refer or do testing and refer.

I think you're reading too many things--I think you need to find a person you trust and then try their treatment plan for a bit. Then, as things work out or come up, ask them. This is like trying "all the things" at one time and then not knowing which ones help and which ones don't. 

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

But maybe that's why I only adjust in my lower back when I'm on steroids?? 

If you have inflammation, then being on steroids for something else might help things die back enough to adjust better. Totally possible.

Ice really helps with soreness. A lot. It's also possible to take an anti-inflammatory like ibuprofen before activity or just in general for a few days to get inflammation down.

Have you tried massage? It could be myofascial pain and not just something being "out." If you have enough spasms and tight muscles, nothing will adjust well. 

As for the multitude of opinions, the natural people and the medical people are all gonna show their stripes and biases with back pain, lol! They are all cut from the same cloth, they just have different biases.

But yeah, sounds like your back is inflamed and tight. I'm sorry. It stinks. BTDT--still working out the kinks, but it was better for me to stick with chiropractic.

ANYONE that just wants to blame things on arthritis better show me x-rays with proof, lol! Or do the bloodwork/refer to a rheumatologist. It's like blaming everything on the tilt of the earth--you probably do have some degree of arthritis, but it's a catch-all way of dealing with complaints from patients.

[PeterPan]

47 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I think you need to find a person you trust and then try their treatment plan for a bit.

I don't trust my chiropractor. This pain started when I was pregnant with ds after a bad adjustment he did. Now it wasn't his fault in the sense it was my body falling apart, but it was his incompetence. He's kinda been ok. I don't know why I haven't tried going to anyone else, creature of habit. It's pretty clear my lower back went from abnormally loose/weak to tight. It hasn't adjusted properly in years save the couple times I was on steroids for pneumonia, bronchitis, whatever and went in.

48 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Have you tried massage?

Yes, and it actually made me MORE stiff and tight with the last massage. Usually that's not the case. Either the girl was too something or it's that my body is just bound and determined to get worse not better right now for whatever reason.

49 minutes ago, kbutton said:

It could be myofascial pain and not just something being "out." If you have enough spasms and tight muscles, nothing will adjust well. 

The offer I had for those weird theories was from a chiro who does myofascial release, yes. I'm just not sure. My regular chiro was like oh I'll stretch it and it will get better, and the next day it was WORSE. I think it's weak and hence tight. 

Doing these hip abductor things actually seems to be loosening it a bit. When I do them I hear a few pops and the bumps on my back seem a little less. Could be wishful thinking. But I thought maybe, since those muscles are actually loose (and since apparently they include the piriformis which is one of of the things the idiot chiro had told me at one point was tight) I might be on the right track, I don't know.

52 minutes ago, kbutton said:

ANYONE that just wants to blame things on arthritis better show me x-rays with proof, lol! Or do the bloodwork/refer to a rheumatologist.

That's interesting. I didn't know they could. It was a PT and she just said it blithely, like oh yeah you've got some arthritis. This was a couple years ago. Her exercises helped some things, but she was $$$$$$ and sort of distracted.

53 minutes ago, kbutton said:

It's also possible to take an anti-inflammatory like ibuprofen before activity or just in general for a few days to get inflammation down.

I wonder if taking more turmeric for a while would work, hmm.

[Slache]

The best things for me have been tai chi, minimal shoes and a nectar mattress. The value of a good mattress cannot be overstated.

[Liz CA]

Myofascial release has helped here.

Also, perhaps stronger than turmeric:  Proteolytic, systemic enzymes

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

Proteolytic, systemic enzymes

Ok, I hadn't heard of enzymes for inflammation. Will look it up!

Now I can't believe I'm so behind on this. There's tons on using them for inflammation. Does the brand matter?

Edited June 15, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

I'm looking at a chart here and it looks like bromelain is as effective as the pancreatin proteolytics. I'm already take some bromelain and it makes a big difference with body pain. Maybe I just take MORE? I'm not sure if they were looking at the same *amounts* of each thing in the study https://www.craigzunkadds.com/resources/nutrition/proteolytic

[Liz CA]

28 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I hadn't heard of enzymes for inflammation. Will look it up!

Now I can't believe I'm so behind on this. There's tons on using them for inflammation. Does the brand matter?

 

I take these. Higher initial cost but you don't have to take 10 of them a day. 3 is the max and I can usually get by with less but you can certainly start off with 3 a day.

https://drwongsessentials.com/zymessence-systemic-enzymes-blend/

Not sure if there is scientific evidence that these are better than some half the price. I got used to them which is why I tend to go back to Zymessence.

[BeachGal]

Try a pemf device. Pemf therapy is pulsed electromagnetic frequency therapy. It’s not TENS; instead it’s a magnetic field that moves through tissue. I bought my first device, an Almag, years ago for chronic, lower back pain. Just placed it over the painful area, turned it on, and within a few weeks pain began to subside. By 6-8 weeks it was gone. Wore it for a minimum of 20” per day, but sometimes hours, like while I was watching tv. The SOTA is a better-built device that has a deeper setting. That would be a good one to own. About $400.

https://www.amazon.com/SOTA-Magnetic-Pulser-Model-MP6/dp/B078X3DP4P

To learn more, Dr. Pawluk is an MD in the US who has researched pemf extensively. You can find articles that explain how it works at his website. He’s also made some short YouTube videos. I prefer to only buy devices that he recommends. NASA has also researched pemf therapy as well for astronauts while they’re in space. Pro athletes and race horses use it, too.

Contraindications are listed at Pawluk’s site — pregnant, implanted devices, etc.

I own four devices. Saving up for a full-body mat. They are just fantastic for many conditions but especially pain and inflammation.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Liz CA said:

 

I take these. Higher initial cost but you don't have to take 10 of them a day. 3 is the max and I can usually get by with less but you can certainly start off with 3 a day.

https://drwongsessentials.com/zymessence-systemic-enzymes-blend/

Not sure if there is scientific evidence that these are better than some half the price. I got used to them which is why I tend to go back to Zymessence.

Thanks! That's a little more than I wanted to pay, haha, but I found a product I could get for free from iherb with rewards that seems to be in that vein. It's Serrazimes instead of serrapeptidase, but same idea, fibrolin eater. We'll see what happens. The bromelain definitely makes a difference, but I didn't realize how much farther this could go. I'll probably just play with it and see what happens. I think you're right that if I adjust better when on steroids then clearly I need more to bring down that inflammation, sigh. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013OZA2K/ref=crt_ewc_title_dp_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER  This the product. Not swanky, but with as much as I react probably starting with just one component is a better idea anyway.

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Try a pemf device. Pemf therapy is pulsed electromagnetic frequency therapy. It’s not TENS; instead it’s a magnetic field that moves through tissue. I bought my first device, an Almag, years ago for chronic, lower back pain. Just placed it over the painful area, turned it on, and within a few weeks pain began to subside. By 6-8 weeks it was gone. Wore it for a minimum of 20” per day, but sometimes hours, like while I was watching tv. The SOTA is a better-built device that has a deeper setting. That would be a good one to own. About $400.

https://www.amazon.com/SOTA-Magnetic-Pulser-Model-MP6/dp/B078X3DP4P

To learn more, Dr. Pawluk is an MD in the US who has researched pemf extensively. You can find articles that explain how it works at his website. He’s also made some short YouTube videos. I prefer to only buy devices that he recommends. NASA has also researched pemf therapy as well for astronauts while they’re in space. Pro athletes and race horses use it, too.

Contraindications are listed at Pawluk’s site — pregnant, implanted devices, etc.

I own four devices. Saving up for a full-body mat. They are just fantastic for many conditions but especially pain and inflammation.

Interesting! I'm extremely EMF sensitive and have really nasty side effects from it, so I definitely can't do that. But I've been reading about TMS (transcranial magnetic stimulation) for autism, mental health symptoms, etc., which maybe is in a similar vein. I didn't realize they were using it for pain. I have a friend who wears and sleeps on magnets too. 

[EmilyGF]

11 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I had another chiro swear he could get it to relax with cupping (ACK!!) and a Graston technique (more ACK, looks like freakish scraping), and I'm just sitting here thinking wouldn't that make it WORSE???

I have no clue. Seems safer to be in pain than to let anyone work on it, mercy. Any thoughts? 

You need a good PT/doctor. You really can't self-diagnose this stuff. Also, there are lousy PTs out there who have the goal of having you come in over and over.

Graston technique works. It is bizarre. but it works for the right things. I have a Chiro/massage therapist who is amazing and she used this, along with stretching, massage, adjustment, exercises, adjustment, etc, to clear up arm pain that was 4-years old and knee pain that was one year old. I don't think it clears up problems by itself, but she says it helps with scar tissue so that the muscles can move freely again, making everything else work better. You can feel the difference ;-P.

Emily

[BeachGal]

Pemfs are extremely low to very low frequency. The magnetic pulse is created with electrical current.

https://www.drpawluk.com/education/magnetic-science/pemf-vs-emf/

Repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation (rTMS) is being used for depression, anxiety, etc. It is a type of pemf. The Neurostar is one such machine. Harvard is doing a lot of research in this area as well as photobiomodulation, which is also pretty cool and can help with inflammation.

I also take Serrapeptase every now and then but not for inflammation. Doctor’s Best, 40,000 SPU per day.

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

Graston technique works.

So you had this done? Actually I trust the chiro saying this. Or at least he's one incredibly smart chiro and I trust he's probably well-researched on why. I just wasn't sure if it hurt... Of course what am I talking about?? Haha, I'm the one who births 11 pound kids. I guess I'm worried for nothing. 

I think I'm gonna take the serrazymes and keep working the abductors for a week and see what happens. 

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Pemfs are extremely low to very low frequency. The magnetic pulse is created with electrical current.

https://www.drpawluk.com/education/magnetic-science/pemf-vs-emf/

I got horrific headaches off a low current muscle stimulator machine a chiro used on me once. Not sure what it's called, but it makes the muscles tense and release till they fatigue and completely release. Helped the pain in the whatever muscles but left me with outlandish headaches. I'm really exquisitely sensitive on stuff. 

[EmilyGF]

11 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So you had this done? Actually I trust the chiro saying this. Or at least he's one incredibly smart chiro and I trust he's probably well-researched on why. I just wasn't sure if it hurt... Of course what am I talking about?? Haha, I'm the one who births 11 pound kids. I guess I'm worried for nothing. 

I think I'm gonna take the serrazymes and keep working the abductors for a week and see what happens. 

Yes and it feels weird and sort of gross but it was worth it for me. It doesn't hurt like childbirth, just like nails on a chalkboard, it makes me wince. But it doesn't take more than a few minutes and then there are months of improvement. I think my PT used it for a few minutes each session for three sessions.

[BeachGal]

Hmm. I don’t know what sort of machine your chiro used — some kind of a TENS maybe? but with pemf devices you would only eventually feel heat from the copper coil that heats up. That’s a bummer that you’re sensitive but serrapeptase and maybe Graston will help.

[popmom]

I also recommend going to an orthopedic doc and get a script for PT. Then find a good PT who specializes in myofascial release. A good PT is life changing. You may have to spend some $$ and commit to regular visits, but it’s worth it.

Edited June 15, 2019 by stephensgirls

[PeterPan]

13 minutes ago, stephensgirls said:

Then find a good PT who specializes in myofascial release. A good PT is life changing.

I did PT for a while a few years ago. She's the one who blithely said it was arthritis. But you're right I didn't maybe move up to a big city PT. I guess I didn't know they did myofascial. This one just had me doing exercises.

1 hour ago, EmilyGF said:

Yes and it feels weird and sort of gross but it was worth it for me. It doesn't hurt like childbirth, just like nails on a chalkboard, it makes me wince. But it doesn't take more than a few minutes and then there are months of improvement. I think my PT used it for a few minutes each session for three sessions.

Thanks, I'll look into it more.

[J-rap]

Is it possible that it could be something as simple as your mattress?  I had lower back problems for years, and finally switched to an extra firm mattress and all my lower back problems went away.  

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, J-rap said:

Is it possible that it could be something as simple as your mattress?  I had lower back problems for years, and finally switched to an extra firm mattress and all my lower back problems went away.  

Sigh, I've wondered. It was better on the cruise, but I was walking more, swimming more, more relaxed. Everything is better on a cruise, lol.

So I found some chiros who do https://integrativediagnosis.com  which seems to be a bit more in the test things, actually figure out what's wrong, rather than this whiz bang if I crack it you should be fine and if I can't crack it it's your fault mess I've been getting. I really think pat answers like doing Graston could make it worse. I'd rather have somebody spend some time and figure out if it's a bulging disk or compensation for weakness or arthritis or what. So it will probably be Monday before I can get feedback on appointments, but I found a couple places to do that. At this point I don't think it's just that I'm weak. It could be, but I don't think so. Even the PT I saw was like 15 minutes, whiz bang, not really spending that much time. And these Integrative Diagnosis people claim there can be adhesions they loosen. I'm not sure it's so radically different from Graston, but hey. It seems they can do it manually and get in some places Graston can't. So we'll see.

[CAJinBE]

I thought I had arthritis, tight hip flexors, etc. until finally I couldn't feel my leg. A trip to the ER and CT scan showed a 2cm herniation in a lumbar disc. They considered this to be a very large herniation. I don't think this is the kind of thing you can see visually. Two days later I had a microdiscectomy and all my back troubles went away, well after the recovery time of several weeks. But I was actually pain free immediately. It was so amazing. I feel like a new person. So I guess I'm trying to say you should stop trying to figure out what it is and get a scan. Then you will know for sure and can pursue the correct treatment for you.

[PeterPan]

13 minutes ago, CAJinBE said:

So I guess I'm trying to say you should stop trying to figure out what it is and get a scan. Then you will know for sure and can pursue the correct treatment for you.

Yup, I think that's what these chiros will do, taking time to diagnose and refer for scans if necessary. I'm *not* having pain down my leg at this point. I'm very aware that's a concern. So I don't *think* it's to that point where yours was. But I don't want it that point by neglecting it or aggravating it either. I want some actual answers, not the blameshifting this chiro has been giving me or some whack job rough intervention that is going to make it worse.

So I'll be open-minded on the scans. We'll see what they say. I would hope I'd be getting in within a week. I have a couple places I think can do a good job with this, so surely one of them will have an opening.

[KungFuPanda]

Oh man, you've jumped through a lot of hoops.  That's frustrating.  You might want to add strengthening your abs and learning to use them to support your spine so that your poor back isn't doing all of the support work.  

I'm taking a break from teaching for a few months and my back was so ready.  I describe it as "end-of-year back" where being an aged dance teacher is enough already and I need some recovery time.  I have pain just under whatever bone that is that's in the same place as your hip bone but on your back.  It only hurts on the right side.  (I suck at anatomy.) I'm not sure I even have your self discipline to try so many different things.  i think I'm just going to rest and whine and hope that works.  

[katilac]

20 hours ago, J-rap said:

Is it possible that it could be something as simple as your mattress?  I had lower back problems for years, and finally switched to an extra firm mattress and all my lower back problems went away.  

This. It could also be a sofa or chair, particularly if you have a favorite spot you sit in almost all of the time. 

[EmilyGF]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

This. It could also be a sofa or chair, particularly if you have a favorite spot you sit in almost all of the time. 

I had a terrible back ache, going on for months, that I blamed on pregnancy. But it was was my blue sofa!

And a shout out to "8 Steps to a Pain-free Back" - it teaches you to walk differently in a way that promotes back health. 

Emily

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Oh man, you've jumped through a lot of hoops.  That's frustrating.  You might want to add strengthening your abs and learning to use them to support your spine so that your poor back isn't doing all of the support work.  

I'm taking a break from teaching for a few months and my back was so ready.  I describe it as "end-of-year back" where being an aged dance teacher is enough already and I need some recovery time.  I have pain just under whatever bone that is that's in the same place as your hip bone but on your back.  It only hurts on the right side.  (I suck at anatomy.) I'm not sure I even have your self discipline to try so many different things.  i think I'm just going to rest and whine and hope that works.  

I *think* that spot connects to the gluts. 

Yeah, done plenty with abs. That was what the PT said a few years ago, abs + pelvic floor + back were weak, sort of a trifecta. She started me and I kept going. Like I'm doing sit-ups on a Rogue glut/ham machine with a 12-18 pound ball. I also do them on an incline with a ball. There's always more to go, but they aren't nearly as bad as they used to be.

Tonight I got some bands to do clamshells. They're supposed to work those hip abductors to get extension and rotation. (I have no clue what I'm talking about.) My back actually felt vaguely better. That I and did some inside leg lifts with the bands. I think the theory was that they're tight or weak like this hip flexors were.

Fwiw, my chiro (the one I don't have great confidence in, lol) says that hunch over feeling is the hip flexors tightening. So I worked those and now I'm working the other side, the hip extensors. Anyways you could look up hip extensors. You basically just wear ankle weights and do knee ups, not hard.

10 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

And a shout out to "8 Steps to a Pain-free Back" - it teaches you to walk differently in a way that promotes back health. 

You know I think I got that book a while back. Apparently it didn't make a big impression, lol. Or I didn't decide to DO anything it said, oops.

1 hour ago, katilac said:

This. It could also be a sofa or chair, particularly if you have a favorite spot you sit in almost all of the time. 

That would be my chair here at the computer. It's a wooden chair. I don't know. I looked at standing desks, but I think standing a lot for me would bring problems too. 

[PeterPan]

The first chiro I wrote is booked out almost a month so I'm trying another person. Guess we'll see. Meanwhile I'm going to keep doing the exercises. Maybe something will work. But even if it gets a bit better, I'm heading in. This is for the birds not knowng why you're hurting. 

[EmilyGF]

31 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I *think* that spot connects to the gluts. 

Yeah, done plenty with abs. That was what the PT said a few years ago, abs + pelvic floor + back were weak, sort of a trifecta. She started me and I kept going. Like I'm doing sit-ups on a Rogue glut/ham machine with a 12-18 pound ball. I also do them on an incline with a ball. There's always more to go, but they aren't nearly as bad as they used to be.

Tonight I got some bands to do clamshells. They're supposed to work those hip abductors to get extension and rotation. (I have no clue what I'm talking about.) My back actually felt vaguely better. That I and did some inside leg lifts with the bands. I think the theory was that they're tight or weak like this hip flexors were.

Fwiw, my chiro (the one I don't have great confidence in, lol) says that hunch over feeling is the hip flexors tightening. So I worked those and now I'm working the other side, the hip extensors. Anyways you could look up hip extensors. You basically just wear ankle weights and do knee ups, not hard.

You know I think I got that book a while back. Apparently it didn't make a big impression, lol. Or I didn't decide to DO anything it said, oops.

That would be my chair here at the computer. It's a wooden chair. I don't know. I looked at standing desks, but I think standing a lot for me would bring problems too. 

The new way of walking is sort of hard to understand, IMO, and it took me a while to realize what she was saying. But when I start getting a back ache now, I purposefully use that style of walking and it takes care of it (which is why my Chiro has only treated knee and arm issues, not back issues - I've got those down now!).

[Pawz4me]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

That would be my chair here at the computer. It's a wooden chair. I don't know. I looked at standing desks, but I think standing a lot for me would bring problems too. 

I've found that with aging (normal aging) it's really all about not doing anything too much. Extremes of sitting or standing are bad.

In your shoes I'd go to a regular (Western) doctor and get a MRI if possible. My SIL suffered with horrible back pain for years and years. She went to many chiros, all of whom were useless for her pain. And I don't say that as someone who is against chiros--DH has seen one for well over a decade and wouldn't think of missing his monthly maintenance appointment. When it was really bad SIL would go to her PCP, who would prescribe muscle relaxers and urge her to get a MRI. SIL resisted for a long time because she didn't want to pay for it. Not couldn't pay for it, didn't want to (I suspect she wasted way more money on chiros over the years than her OOP for a MRI would have cost). Finally it got to a point she couldn't put it off any longer. The MRI revealed several issues, some easily fixable with outpatient laser surgery and some (arthritis) not fixable. She had the surgery in January and instantly felt better than she has in years. Her recovery has been a bit up and down, but she's doing things now that she hasn't been able to do in decades without intense pain. She tells everybody exactly what you'd expect--I wish I'd done it years ago. She's lucky putting it off so long apparently didn't make things a lot worse. That would be my fear.

[Pippen]

On 6/15/2019 at 2:24 AM, J-rap said:

Is it possible that it could be something as simple as your mattress?  I had lower back problems for years, and finally switched to an extra firm mattress and all my lower back problems went away.  

Take the mattress seriously. My daughter was having neck and jaw problems to the degree that we had a referral to a TMJ specialist. One week she was sick and slept on our sofa and noticed how much better her symptoms were. We bought her a new mattress and memory foam pillow and her symptoms were 95% improved and easily dealt with by the chiro.

We had an elderly relative who spent several days hospitalized for severe back pain the doctors couldn't find a cause for. Finally someone thought to check her mattress and that turned out to be the culprit.

[Lady Florida.]

Mine also started when I was pregnant but not from anything. It just suddenly started when I was 7 months pregnant. I was told by every professional I sought help from that it was being caused by the weight of the baby and would go away when he was born. They were all wrong - the regular doctor, the chiropractor, the orthopedic specialist, the physical and massage therapists. All of them. Seeing that ds will be 22 in less than 3 months that anniversary of pain is just a few weeks away. I truly don't remember what it feels like to not have back pain. 

Because I've been dealing with this for so long I've learned a lot. One is that you need a true diagnosis and that can really only come from getting an MRI. Another is you need a really good physical therapist. And probably most important is that there's not usually one thing causing your pain. All of those things you were told are probably not wrong. So much of your body works together. Weak abs, tight hip flexors, protruding discs (i don't officially have any bulging discs), arthritis, disc degeneration, etc. all cause or contribute to back pain. It's likely you do have more than one thing causing your pain.

It's important to do exercises that help each of the issues you have (another reason to get a dx so you know exactly what you have wrong). However, exercises for one area can sometimes aggravate another area. That's why a good PT is important. You need one who knows and understands all of your issues and can give you exercises that won't cancel each other out.

I sincerely hope you can find some relief. I know what chronic back pain is like. 

 

Edited June 16, 2019 by Lady Florida.

[katilac]

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 That would be my chair here at the computer. It's a wooden chair. I don't know.  

Can you try a lumbar pillow? You can rig one out of household items to see if it helps: 

https://www.verywellhealth.com/make-your-own-lumbar-roll-for-proper-posture-2696193

 Regarding exercise: yes, very important for managing back pain, but don't just do one or even two sets of exercise per day and call it good. You want to keep everything from getting stiff, so take a short break from sitting every 30-40 minutes. Do one or two simple stretches, walk to the kitchen to refill your water, have a list of quick chores like wiping down the bathroom sink or emptying the trash can by your desk, or walk onto the porch for a quick breath of fresh air. Where I live, the air is more often hot and humid, but it's still nice to get outside for brief periods when I'm working. 

I agree that a standing desk isn't likely the answer (unless you can have two workspaces) but I'd also make a list of specific things that I always do standing (not at your desk, you don't want to be hunched over, at a taller table or counter). So if there's one very specific piece of paperwork you do daily or weekly that takes no more than 15 minutes, always do that standing. If you work out the schedule for helpers on paper, you can set a timer and do the first 15 minutes of that standing. 

I've said this in other threads: gentle yoga was an absolute game changer for my back pain. It's better at 50 than it was at 20, even though I've had two kids and gained weight in the interval. And when I say gentle, I mean that I've been doing it for years and never really moved past those beginner poses, lol. I can hold some of the longer when I stick with it, sure, but I am not doing a bunch of different poses nor any complex ones. I don't do classes and I surely didn't want to make things worse, so I never pushed past the point of comfort, much less to the point of pain. Sissy yoga for sure, but the difference it made is unbelievable. 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

The MRI revealed several issues, some easily fixable with outpatient laser surgery and some (arthritis) not fixable.

Ok so I think the chiro can order an MRI. I'm definitely not going to be screwing around here. I'm going to go to one chiro (whoever can get me first) trained in this integrative diagnostics, see what they can do, then decide. I should look up how arthritis is shown, hmm. I don't really know the differences between these tools (MRI, CT, etc.) even to know. I guess I'm hoping I go in and it's this little innocuous answer like oh this was tight, sigh. 

9 minutes ago, katilac said:

I agree that a standing desk isn't likely the answer (unless you can have two workspaces)

Thanks, that's how it seemed to me but I thought I was crazy, lol.

10 minutes ago, katilac said:

Sissy yoga for sure, but the difference it made is unbelievable. 

Hehe, we'll see. I want to find out what's wrong first. I had a couple things that were weak that I'm targeting right now, and in general I really like working with weight. 

15 minutes ago, katilac said:

so take a short break from sitting every 30-40 minutes.

Yes, that's what I'm trying to do now. It seems the most practical thing, better than causing more problems with a standing desk.

16 minutes ago, katilac said:

Can you try a lumbar pillow?

I had totally not heard of this, so I'll go look! I sleep flat on my back, always have. I did try a pillow under my knees, and I felt more stiff/awkward in the morning. It didn't help at least. 

We're on a king bed, so one of the options would be replacing the mattress (which is very firm on my side and completely dipped on dh's) and doing two twinXLs to have them different. But my side, after a number of years, is almost like new, quite firm. Dh lays on his side and has more weight, so his side is a mess. I flip it end to end but never over, because I'm not gonna lay in his dip. He loves it.

I felt better on the cruise, where the mattress was very different (latex? I don't know), but that could also just be from walking so much. We came back EXHAUSTED, lol.

Anyways, he's not unhappy with his mattress, so I'd really need some evidence to say we needed to do that. It's definitely a question I can ask whomever I see, because it's a logical part of the equation. 

The first place I wrote that does this integrative diagnostics (and can write scrips for MRI/CT/blood) can do the week after July 4, which is a bit of a wait. I'm hoping I get a better answer from the next place on Monday. As far as seeing a regular doc, we're in a small town, meaning everything like that is the big city, big waits, big hassle. I'll do it if I need to, absolutely. But I just had a friend do an MRI for her back, and she jumped through hoops for weeks to get it done. She's 82 but she's the woman, hehe. So I'm not sure I'd have a doctor to do that and get that done any sooner than I could be into the chiro doing the integrative diagnostics. And for my GP, he's a nice guy, but I'm not sure I want to ask my back questions of him. That would mean finding an actual back doctor, not in a hospital so it's affordable, and we're right back where we started, waiting to get in. So I think one of this appointments in the next month and having them run the MRI/CT/whatever if I need it would be just as fast probably. And at least backs are what they do, as opposed to my GP who is a little nutty and absent-minded and doing a bit of everything.

56 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

Mine also started when I was pregnant but not from anything. It just suddenly started when I was 7 months pregnant. I was told by every professional I sought help from that it was being caused by the weight of the baby and would go away when he was born. They were all wrong - the regular doctor, the chiropractor, the orthopedic specialist, the physical and massage therapists. All of them. Seeing that ds will be 22 in less than 3 months that anniversary of pain is just a few weeks away. I truly don't remember what it feels like to not have back pain. 

Because I've been dealing with this for so long I've learned a lot. One is that you need a true diagnosis and that can really only come from getting an MRI. Another is you need a really good physical therapist. And probably most important is that there's not usually one thing causing your pain. All of those things you were told are probably not wrong. So much of your body works together. Weak abs, tight hip flexors, protruding discs (i don't officially have any bulging discs), arthritis, disc degeneration, etc. all cause or contribute to back pain. It's likely you do have more than one thing causing your pain.

It's important to do exercises that help each of the issues you have (another reason to get a dx so you know exactly what you have wrong). However, exercises for one area can sometimes aggravate another area. That's why a good PT is important. You need one who knows and understands all of your issues and can give you exercises that won't cancel each other out.

I sincerely hope you can find some relief. I know what chronic back pain is like. 

 

Thank you, this makes a lot of sense. It's probably why no single thing I'm doing is making it better. If I need a PT, I'm going to need somebody better than what I tried locally. I could start looking for that person now while pursuing the testing, hmm. 

[PeterPan]

34 minutes ago, katilac said:

Can you try a lumbar pillow? You can rig one out of household items to see if it helps: 

So I'm reading that article. When I sit in my desk chair, I sit forward on the edge, very straight. Like I have a very straight back right now, no slouching. 

What the chiro thought was aggravating it was all the driving for ds' therapy appointments. I drove 2 1/2 hours each way weekly for 8 years PLUS we added local appointments. All that time with one leg forward, etc. has made the muscles more developed on one side. I just replaced my car with something that fits me a bit better and is more supportive, but that's only recent.

So I have differences in tightness, etc. across my sides. Of course this was also the dude telling me if I would stand more evenly the problems would go away, lol. But there is something to that amount of time sitting that way and one side being tighter, etc. 

Edited June 16, 2019 by PeterPan

[Alicia64]

I've had lower back problems for last 10 yrs. Long story short: if you're at all nearish to a teaching hospital like a UC in CA, Vanderbilt in TN or Emory in Atlanta etc. -- see an orthopedist. They often take time to get in so start the process as soon as you can. Again, at a teaching hospital.

I never felt truly fixed until I went to Emory.

 Life is too short to spend a decade in pain. (In the meantime, sitting on ice pillows might really help. There are also heating pads made for your car's seat.) If you want more info, PM me.

Hugs!!

Alley

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, Alicia64 said:

orthopedist.

I will look this up. Yes, we're near a scad of universities, so it's likely one has these. I didn't know the right person to look for. I should be able to find that, thanks!

Ok, yes, our university has it. So now I know what to try next if this swanked up chiro thing doesn't work out. 

Edited June 17, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Has anybody tried the Purple seat cushions? https://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/product/royal-purple-reg-no-pressure-seat-cushion-in-black-purple/1062118057?keyword=purple-seat-cushion  

[Lizzie in Ma]

To relieve the pain while whatever it is heals, I can't recommend this stuff highly enough.  It is the only topical that has ever touched my chronic neck and shoulder pain.

https://battlebalmcbd.com/products/battle-balm®-extra-strength-cbd

[PeterPan]

Well I have no clue if they're any good or not, but I got a new patient appointment with a big sports/rehab chiro practice in the big city and it's a cancelation appt for today. They at least spend some time, unlike the whiz bang places locally. The other place I was looking at was much farther away, so I'm hoping this will work. I think if someone will at least spend some time and do some functional assessments, they'll figure out something. 

[Alicia64]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Well I have no clue if they're any good or not, but I got a new patient appointment with a big sports/rehab chiro practice in the big city and it's a cancelation appt for today. They at least spend some time, unlike the whiz bang places locally. The other place I was looking at was much farther away, so I'm hoping this will work. I think if someone will at least spend some time and do some functional assessments, they'll figure out something. 

It would be smart to call and get an appointment w/ an orthopedist today. The teaching hospitals are booked so get on their schedule now -- then if you don't need the appointment, just cancel!

Thanks for that purple pillow idea -- I need something to sit on at the dog park!!

Ally

[TravelingChris]

First don't let anyone tell you that you have arthritis without a lot of bloodwork, xrays, etc.  Because the treatment for Osteoarthritis is completely different that Rheumatoid Arthritis, Gout, Ankylosing Spondylosis, Psoriatic Arthritis, etc, etc.  

Secondly, everyone who wants to have good health now has to be pro-active.  For example, I have had Ankylosing  Spondylosis for years as well as RA.    That is a partially hereditary but basically an autoimmune disease as are all the others mentioned except osteoarthritis (or as far as they know now).  AS is incredibly misdiagnosed in females, for example, because we have different presentations and traditionally it was thought to be almost exclusively a disease of young males.  For all of the autoimmune diseases, getting in with a responsible specialist and following advice of progression of medications is necessary to ensure future ability to use parts of your body.  OA, however, has different treatments-  mostly palliative at this point.

Chiropacters are not trained in autoimmune diseases though they do have a lot of experience with osteoarthritis.  But in terms of xrays, I have had tons of rushed radiologists misread everything from missing broken bones to missing my RA and my AS.  And this isn't just my experience either.    Oh and when I went back and read reports, I did see that they were finding the AS but simply not describing in a way that other doctors were catching it.

[BeachGal]

If you do turn out to have an autoimmune problem, check out researcher Valter Longo. His work is pretty incredible.

[PeterPan]

30 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

If you do turn out to have an autoimmune problem, check out researcher Valter Longo. His work is pretty incredible.

Well thank you for that note of confidence, lol. I was really hoping for more like "lazy slob, your back is weak" or some other polite answer. Hahaha. But honestly autoimmune hasn't been on my mind. I guess we'll see what he says. I know in theory it should/could be on my mind and it passes my mind. It just drifted out or something. Fwiw my thyroid antibodies were fine. We ran those. So when you say autoimmune, that's some kind of arthritisy stuff? Is a chiro actually going to run tests for that? The orthopedist? The wait till you drop and then go see your GP who could have run them all along?

I'd really prefer fat slob be the diagnosis. 

[PeterPan]

Ok, good night. I've been seeing this ankylosing spondylitis word in lists and didn't know what it was. Yeah, I don't even have to read much to know what is showing there could be an explanation, which explains why you're saying it. 

I still prefer fat slob. Sigh. That at least would be easily fixable. Are we even allowed to call ourselves fat or slobs anymore? 

In other words, I'm unusually nervous about this appointment. It's in 1 1/2 hours, so you can wish me luck. But I don't know if a chiro can diagnose AK. At least he ought to be smart enough to say what it's NOT and say who to go see. Sigh.

That would explain why it only calms down when I'm on prednisone. Now I'm, I don't know what I am. Ugh. That sorta ruins my day. 

Must think positive.

Edited June 17, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

There's a gene marker for AK. It's HLA B27. 

https://www.spondylitis.org/About-Spondylitis/Inflammatory-vs-Mechanical-Back-Pain

Ok, so 23andme does run some snps for HLA B27. My dd is fine, heterozygous green/good. My genetics were done by a different test and don't show it. Now I'm curious to get them done, hmm. But if she has 2 green, that's a good sign. They only ran one SNP, so it's not really tell you a lot.

Edited June 17, 2019 by PeterPan

[BeachGal]

You probably have too much inflammation, not a dreadful disease. My point about Longo is that his research is showing that autoimmune conditions can be improved. These are human studies.

ETA: And you are also not a big fat slob! Your weight lifting routine sounds intense.

Edited June 17, 2019 by BeachGal

[TravelingChris]

20 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, good night. I've been seeing this ankylosing spondylitis word in lists and didn't know what it was. Yeah, I don't even have to read much to know what is showing there could be an explanation, which explains why you're saying it. 

I still prefer fat slob. Sigh. That at least would be easily fixable. Are we even allowed to call ourselves fat or slobs anymore? 

In other words, I'm unusually nervous about this appointment. It's in 1 1/2 hours, so you can wish me luck. But I don't know if a chiro can diagnose AK. At least he ought to be smart enough to say what it's NOT and say who to go see. Sigh.

That would explain why it only calms down when I'm on prednisone. Now I'm, I don't know what I am. Ugh. That sorta ruins my day. 

Must think positive.

Actually, autoimmune often has easier fixes than out of shape---just sayin:

I can give you lots of positives too about autoimmune and taking meds.  I can give you lots of positives about being overweight too. (Lesser chance of dying from stroke or blood clot).